morality of collecting

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morality of collecting

29 May 07 - 07:03 AM (#2063009)
Subject: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

Dave Bulmer collected a number of volumes of tunes,he acknowledges his contributors.
I do not know whether they were they acknowledged financially.
what are peoples opinions on the morality of collecting,should contributors be looked after[Financially] in some form or other.
there was previous earlier criticism of the collector[not Bulmer] who collected from Nealy Boyle.

29 May 07 - 07:20 AM (#2063016)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST

Bulmer & Sharpley collected the tunes and acknowledged the contributers. Most, but not all of the tunes were traditional, without the composer being known. Whether they were "acknowledged financially" or not, I don't know, and neither do you. I would assume that's between Bulmer and whoever contributed the tune. If someone collected a traditional tune from you to put into a collection, would you expect to be paid for it?
Or is this merely an excuse for another "bash Bulmer" thread ?

29 May 07 - 07:21 AM (#2063018)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Captain Ginger

Trouble is 'collector' can describe those like Sharp, Broadwood, Baring-Gould, Hammond and Gardner who did so because that is what people of that class did in those days - whether it was moths, stamps or folk-songs, they collected, catalogued and published - and those who collect to make money. The same holds true in the art world; the collector has a status near that of the academic, whereas the dealer is merely trade, however well cut the suit. And often the borders are blurred (as in the case of Charles Saatchi).
And how does one reward a primary source? Do you sign a royalty deal with each one, or given them a one-off payment or just buy them a pint? And, if the material is trad rather than composed by your source, does that make it public domain?
An interesting conundrum, though...

29 May 07 - 09:56 AM (#2063107)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

no one is bashing anyone,only asking questions.,and asking for opinions
traditional only means no one remembers who wrote it, although somebody did write all these tunes.[so logically they are somebodies work]
Dave Bulmer collected these tunes and made money from them .
Guest.I stated that I didnt know whether he paid his contributors.,so your remark was unecessary and also agressive.
how one rewards a primary source is a matter of moral judgement.
Dave Bulmer seems a little inconsistent,in his MORAL approach,he does the decent thing to Mick Tems,But then tries to get an injunction to stop Topic producing Games set and Match,which doesnt help Nic Jones,and is in my opinion not the correct moral approach.

29 May 07 - 10:30 AM (#2063126)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Greg B

I believe if a song is trad it is trad. The primary source didn't
pay for it, and should not be paid for it.

On the other hand, the collector should be paid for his LABOR, not
for the 'creatives' on the song. That means no royalties, no
copyright. Maybe 'copyleft' which puts it in the public domain
with no royalties. So you got paid in 1966 for collecting a song
and for transcribing it, and for putting it in a book and selling
the book. But you don't get paid every time someone performs
the song at a gig or puts it on a record. That's stealing from
the tradition.

And no fair collecting from a primary source and applying music
theory 1A to figure out that the chords are G, C, and D, either,
or putting dots on a page, and claiming copyright, either.

As a collector who doesn't pay primary sources, you get to claim
copyright on the BOOK that you put the song in, on xerographic
copies of the pages themselves, and THAT IS IT.

On the other hand, the collector who does the 'adapted and
arranged by' thing willy-nilly OUGHT to be paying his primary
sources and their descendants, for the prescribed period of
copyright.

29 May 07 - 12:23 PM (#2063209)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: dick greenhaus

Let's face it--the early, great and important collectors weren't particularly "moral" by today's standards. Lomaxes (John A and Alan), Sharp, Kennedy, Grainger, Warner, Henderson....none of them, as far as I know, even considered paying informants or sources. Not to mention Record companies, like Folkways and Leader, who either negotiated contracts which were unnspeakably one sided (by today's standards) or just didn't pay recording artists at all.
Let's also not forget that, without these people, none of us would have any access to folk music whatsoever.

29 May 07 - 12:40 PM (#2063221)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Surreysinger

That's a bit of a sweeping statement Dick... I can only really speak for Lucy Broadwood,as the one that I know something about, but she certainly did pay some of her contributors. Samuel Willett for instance certainly received payments for songs that he passed on to her whereas Mrs Vaisey was paid in kind - she received a set of handkerchiefs which Lucy took round to her two days after she had collected songs from her; and Lucy forwarded on various gifts of soft furnishings for the house to the family that she had collected songs from in Arisaig. So the method of "payment" varied from actual cash to items in kind (and on a friendly basis) from one singer or contributor to another. The morals of that practice don't seem to be particularly dubious to me, and I'm sure that she can't have been alone in her method of dealing with things .

29 May 07 - 12:43 PM (#2063225)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Scoville

If a song is trad, the person from whom it was collected, collected it at some point from someone else, who was more than likely also uncompensated. Trad./unknown composer tunes and songs are fair game. I agree that it goes both ways: A lot of those collecters were patronizing and greedy SOB's but, in the end, they're still the main reason we have access to the music.

Original compositions, on the other hand, ought to be compensated, and no quibbling about arrangements, etc. A lot of comparatively unsophisticated people got royally ripped-off.

29 May 07 - 12:43 PM (#2063226)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Ahem. For Leader read Celtic.

Bill Leader had contracts with his artists which no one in their right minds would sign today. This is because circumstances now are entirely different to those prevailing 35 years ago. Bill operated in two areas:

(1) field recordings of traditional musicians and
(2) young revivalists that no-one else was bothering with.

It is those latter who recorded for his Trailer label to whom Mr Polytunnel appear to be referring. Their contracts involved relinquishing the rights to their work in order to get it out there. Bill was a friend, the artists trusted him and why not? Nothing went wrong till the label went bankrupt and the catalogue sold on. Twice.

These recordings have remained unavailable, along with the unbelievably important field recording, for the past quarter century as recounted at length in innumerable threads passim.

This tragedy has precious little to do with this thread's title and nothing whatsoever to do with Bill Leader and it is both inaccurate and unfair to malign him.

29 May 07 - 01:18 PM (#2063260)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

I believe Cecil Sharp,paid some of his sources.did he notpay for Kimbers concertina to be repaired[Correct me if Iam wrong].
Frank Kidson always offered to buy his source a drink.
Dave Bulmer,has at least two tunes in the collectionthat Iam under the impression were composed by Paddy Fahey,I hope he had his permission to use this material,and reimbursed him.

29 May 07 - 01:26 PM (#2063272)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: dick greenhaus

"Bill Leader had contracts with his artists which no one in their right minds would sign today. This is because circumstances now are entirely different to those prevailing 35 years ago."

That's what I said, too. I also pointed out that judging yeaterday's actions by today's standards is nonsensical. Without people like Bill Leader and Moses Asch there wouldn't be a folk "industry".

This thread's title, if you hadn't noticed, is "morality of collecting".
Slinging mud at Mr. Bulmer, if you feel like it, belongs in a different thread. And, (quoting again)"These recordings have remained unavailable, along with the unbelievably important field recording, for the past quarter century as recounted at length in innumerable threads passim.

This tragedy has precious little to do with this thread's title ..."

29 May 07 - 01:33 PM (#2063279)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

yesit has ,Dave Bulmer HAS collected[bought] a lot of other peoples recordings,and has kept them out of the public domain

29 May 07 - 01:35 PM (#2063281)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Mr Polytunnel

I didn't mention Mr Bulmer. He comes into the Leader/Trailer two steps on from its insolvency. Though his actions/inactions have indeed caused tragedy.

YOU mentioned Bill Leader. Highly inappropriately. He has done nothing wrong. He issued contracts which were common at the time but which would be unacceptable today because of changed circumstances and massively diminished trust.

And he has precious little to do with the thread's title.

Is Logic missing from the Murkan National Curriculum?

29 May 07 - 02:19 PM (#2063320)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

Dick Greenhaus,to mention Dave Bulmers attempt to get an injunction against Topic to prevent NicJones[game set and match].,is not mudslinging,.it appearsto be factual
what are your views on Dave Bulmers actions.

29 May 07 - 02:37 PM (#2063351)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Yes indeed, Mr Bulmer DID obtain an injunction against Topic over Game Set Match which threatened to delay its release but it was struck out in time for this not to occur. Fortunately for Nic Jones who might have had to repay his advance which he had already spend on private treatment to his ailing kneeke the trouble to.

Mr Greenhouse/Polytunnel however chooses to sling mud all over Bill Leader who was not reponsible for harming a soul. Because, as Mr G belatedly mentions, there wouldn't BE a folk industry without him.

When identifying villains, do take the trouble to know exactly what you are talking about.

29 May 07 - 03:23 PM (#2063389)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: dick greenhaus

Dear Ms. (I assume) Easby-

Apparently you don't read your own postings, along with others you seem to ignore. My quote concerning Mr. Leader (for whom I have nothing but gratitude and respect) came from your posting. I never suggested that he did anything wrong by the standards of folklore collecting some 30 or 40 years ago.

I further quote ; "He issued contracts which were common at the time but which would be unacceptable today because of changed circumstances and massively diminished trust." I agree.

If Bulmer had tried to stop release of "Game Set Match", I would agree that it would have been a reprehensible action. Which, again, has nothing to do with "morality of collecting".

Lastly, if the major force of argument you can bring to bear on this subject is a feeble pun on my surname, I suggest that you might seek out some medical help.

29 May 07 - 03:35 PM (#2063398)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,Patronising git.

Yes Diane, knock the "polytunnel" stuff in the head will you, especially when I'm having a coffee. It's made me do the the nose trick twice now- I don't want to do it again.

29 May 07 - 03:38 PM (#2063402)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Something went extremely wrong with my post of 02.37 in which 'the trouble to' appeared twice, once in the wrong place.

I was trying to talk about Nic Jones' knee which (no thanks to Mr Bulmer) is fixed, thanks to Game Set Match, which CM DID issue an injunction against. No question of 'if'.

Something far worse went wrong with Camsco's initial post when he described Bill Leader's actions as 'unspeakable', a description far more applicable to the Beast of Harrogate, Mr Bulmer.

None of which, obviously, has the slightest relevance to the thread. But if Mr Market Gardener wants to throw herrings about it would be as well for him to ascertain which part of Yorkshire to aim at.

29 May 07 - 03:41 PM (#2063404)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

so lucy Broadwood gave some renumeration,as did Frank Kidson.
does anyone know about Sharp or Baring Gould.

29 May 07 - 03:45 PM (#2063405)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Whatever Percy Grainger gave might make for interesting reading . . .

29 May 07 - 03:58 PM (#2063413)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Malcolm Douglas

The major early 20th century song collectors paid their informants for their time, in cash or in kind (not infrequently including alcohol and a nice dinner) or, indeed, in both. As a rule, this was a private matter between collector and singer, but surviving correspondence can sometimes provide details. Of course, there were a lot of people who just picked up the odd song here and there; whatever arrangement they had will have depended on their relationship with the singer.

They weren't 'buying' the songs, but paying the singers for their time and trouble. In cases where the songs were published, this was typically done at a loss. Published versions were frequently edited, collated and arranged for accompaniment, and the editor was entitled to copyright in the resulting version. In practice this was rarely insisted upon, though normal courtesy demanded that permission be obtained for commercial use. On one occasion, Sharp declined permission (he wasn't happy about the proposed use) and was roundly criticized by the gentleman concerned for asserting proprietory rights over a traditional song. Sharp pointed out that only that particular form was at issue; all the fellow had to do was go out and spend his own time and money collecting one of his own; from the same singer if he liked.

Towards the end of his life, Sharp actually started to make a modest profit from publishing, but he was very unusual in this. George Gardiner not only paid his singers, but the collaborators who took down the tunes for him; and the only 'commercial' selection he published had piano arrangements commissioned from the young Gustav Holst. No cash profit there.

That was a century ago. I don't know what precise arrangements might pertain nowadays, but I can tell you that folk music books rarely achieve large sales and make only modest profits; and that small publishers typically pay royalties as a percentage of net, not gross, receipts. If you edit a book for somebody, then (if you haven't actually done it for nothing) you will either get a fee at the time or a royalty on sales; not both.

That, of course, tells you nothing about what arrangements might exist for payments to living source singers/musicians or the heirs of deceased ones in the case of material provided by them and included in new collections. It is necessary to obtain formal permission for the use of material, but I don't think there's any hard and fast rule beyond that. Each case is likely to be different. Note that I'm talking only about print here; different rules apply in sound recordings.

29 May 07 - 04:03 PM (#2063419)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

Dick Greenhaus your statement is incorrect.
in an interesting article on CECIL SHARP,in the appalachians available at musical trads by Mike Yates,Sharp says on occassions I gave a generous musical gratuity to stimulate the singers memory.
so Broadwood, Sharp, Kidson,all rewarded their sources in some shape or form.

29 May 07 - 04:06 PM (#2063421)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: M.Ted

Mr. Greenhaus;" Record companies, like Folkways and Leader, who either negotiated contracts which were unnspeakably one sided (by today's standards) or just didn't pay recording artists at all."

Ms. Easby . "He issued contracts which were common at the time but which would be unacceptable today because of changed circumstances and massively diminished trust."

When people agree and then fight about it, it is a sign of the last days.

29 May 07 - 04:19 PM (#2063428)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

I DON'T agree with the Greenhouse person.

What he wants to do is try to make out Celtic Music is the bees' knees, that Bulmer 'saved' the Leader/Trailer catalogue and that it's Bill Leader's fault that his original contracts are preventing its availability.

All of which is completely wrong and entirely off-topic.

29 May 07 - 04:35 PM (#2063444)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

Let me pose a question.

I am going to write a biography of Diane Easby. I ask Dick Greenhause, Captain Birdsey, M.Ted and a few other Mudcatters to share their thoughts. I explain to each of them that I am writing a book and I would like to use their words as commentary in my book, but I can't pay them. At best, I will buy them lunch. They agree to do so. The book is a runway best seller and I am now purchasing a summer house in the Hamptons.

Do I owe these people money?

29 May 07 - 05:02 PM (#2063475)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Sod off.

Give ME the money or I don't give permission.

I'd like a house on Long Island too. Montauk, I think . . .

29 May 07 - 05:09 PM (#2063482)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

"Sod off" Great! I now have a title for my book.

I actually would not need your permission to write a book about you. If the other individuals freely gave their permission to speak, they are not owed a dime either.

This is a complicated subject. A contract is a contract, and while "moral" issues may be present, there are also "ethical" questions.

I'm not defending Bulmer, everything I have read about him makes him sound slimey. Still, I think there are other sides to the issue.

29 May 07 - 05:11 PM (#2063486)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Folkiedave

Looks like your biography of Diane will be short and unauthorised Ron!!

I am worried that Diane knows intimate details of the best places to live on Long Island. I am happy to know the best parts of the east coast too, Cleethorpes, Mablethorpe, Bridlington, Scarborough etc........

29 May 07 - 05:14 PM (#2063491)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,Russ

This discussion is entirely one sided.
As usual.

The focus is on the collectors and their practices. Nobody ever wants to talk about the collectees and their views on the matter.

Anyway,

A.P. Carter collected material from many sources.
The Carter Family then recorded some of this material and benefitted financially.
RCA Victor also benefitted.
Ralph Peer got the copyrights and made out like a bandit.

The people who were collected noticed this.

As a rule they were quite annoyed by the arrangement.

They felt that they deserved a piece of the pie.

Prima facie I think they have a good point.

I'll bet if you or one of your ancestor's had been such a collectee you'd agree with them.

Russ (Permanent GUEST)

29 May 07 - 05:31 PM (#2063509)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Once I sat on the harbourfront at Montauk eating lobster-in-the-rough and looking out on an ocean which didn't stop till it reached Portugal (whose Atlantic shore is another favourite place). I'd been walking in the footsteps of Jack Kerouac and collecting bits of driftwood which I still have.

This is absolutely nothing to do with anything and no, Ron, you can't put it in the book. If I choose to share it with everyone here, that's up to me. You can'r copyright it.

29 May 07 - 05:33 PM (#2063513)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

Cecil Sharp s collecting in the appalachians was necessary because the music was in danger of extinction,he on occassions rewarded his sources.
Dave Bulmers collecting of irish tunes was different,a considerable number of his tunes were collected from a session that occurred regularly [he acknowledges this in at least one of his books ].so the music was not in danger of dying out when he collected them,were his motives purely financial[Ido not know],possibly a mix of financial and a love of the music.
in my opinion a person who collects music, purely /mostly or partly for financial gain,should renumerate his sources in some form at the very least a drink for everyone..[after all without the musicians/ singers,there would be nothing to collect].
I hope the musicians that Bulmer and Sharpley[a solicitor who I believe was struck off] collected from, at the very least got a free drink.
There are other people who have published books of tunes in the last 30 years who I suspect have been guilty of not renumerating their sources in a morally correct way.

29 May 07 - 05:38 PM (#2063515)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

oh, on the subject of The Carter Family[little darling pal of mine]The tune of which was used by Woody Guthrie for This land is my land,.

29 May 07 - 05:44 PM (#2063519)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

OH RON I am Captain Birdseye,not birdsey,.is there any such thing as a free lunch[joke].

29 May 07 - 06:21 PM (#2063540)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: dick greenhaus

I can only point out (again, yet) that the " what I posted was a direct quote from a posting by Ms. Easby. I hold no brief, neither for nor against Mr. Bulmer, I'm not sure whether she's bitching about Bulmer releasing the material (which he's doing) or not releasing it (which he's also doing, albeit with a different portion of the material.

I have no information, one way or another, about Bulmer's fiddle tune collecting. I'll say again that the contracts signed back then were unspeakable BY TODAY'S STANDARDS. They're the same kind of contracts that cost the Kossoy Sisters all rights to their recording of "I'll Fly Away" when it was used in O Brother, Where Art Thou.

Again, by today's standards, repaying a performer with token payments-- "paid in kind - she received a set of handkerchiefs which Lucy took round to her two days after she had collected songs from her; and Lucy forwarded on various gifts of soft furnishings for the house to the family that she had collected songs from in Arisaig" is essentially using their performances with no contract and no royalties. Frankly, though, considering the tiny sales potential of this kind of material, I can't see any other way of doing it.
There's clearly a difference between being a source for a song and being a performer on a recording that's going to be sold commercially.

Lastly, I'd like to state that I unequivocally honor and am grateful to all the collectors--whether or not I would or did dislike them personally.

29 May 07 - 08:34 PM (#2063634)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

Well put Dick!

I've always had mixed feelings about those who served as the "source" for songs. The reason I brought up my tongue in cheek idea of writing a book about Diane is to try to show the situation from a different perspective. A biographer does not need the permission of the subject. What a biographer needs is sources for information, same as a reporter. When a biographer interviews a subject, or when a TV reporter interviews a witness, usually there is no payment. Some subjects will demand a fee, and it is negotiated.

These collectors did the same. While I am sure there were some that had ulterior motives and did not tell the source their intention, most of the collectors that I have read about did indeed state their purpose and arranged for the song to be transcribed. AP Carter visited his neighbors and asked for songs, many of which he re-wrote, and then they became hits - at that point SOME of the neighbors complained.

I'm with Dick - I applaud the collectors who have kept this music alive and preserved songs that would have been lost to the ages.

29 May 07 - 09:31 PM (#2063677)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: M.Ted

Ron-So you *don't* want all my amusing anecdotes and recollections about Diane Easby?

29 May 07 - 11:06 PM (#2063720)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

My lawyer will call your lawyer and we will work out a deal :)

29 May 07 - 11:10 PM (#2063721)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad

Once every couple of months I seem to trip over a thread like this one. I think we all have mixed emotions about collectors.
I have my heros to thank for the songs they collected and to blame for adding "Arranged & Adapted by..." to each and every song.
Sure, we're singing the songs that they saved but countless others have surely been lost because the more scrupulous collectors had less of a business head on their shoulders.
Are we any better off for their contributions? Probably not but they are.

30 May 07 - 02:58 PM (#2064265)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: dick greenhaus

I don't knew who closed this, or why, but I think it should remain open in case someone has something valuable to say.

30 May 07 - 03:01 PM (#2064267)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Blimey, who let the dogs out?

30 May 07 - 04:03 PM (#2064308)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

I believe suggesting that all collectors reimburse there sources,is a valuable thing to say.
never mind the dogs, watch out for the Ferrets.

30 May 07 - 04:08 PM (#2064309)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Ferrets?
Or Rugrats?

30 May 07 - 04:18 PM (#2064314)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

I'd be careful of old dinosaurs

30 May 07 - 04:25 PM (#2064320)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Folkiedave

I do not know how many people know of Ferret Publications - but you ought to.

And a great picture of Lewis with a ferret....

http://www.geocities.com/ferretpublications/

30 May 07 - 04:31 PM (#2064324)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYX1t9un-Mc&mode=related&search=

30 May 07 - 05:21 PM (#2064356)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

Im sure ferret publications are very reputable.
Then there is also ferret music, A D TOWNSEND gent,a collection of English country dance tunes,compiled and arranged by A D Townsend Gent,published 1982,which carries an advert for Celtic music.
Im sure this publication is perfectly reputable,and hope that A.D got permission from Bob Cann to publish uncles jig[Bob Canns Uncle]family jig[BobCann].,Oscars jig etc.
of coure at this time alot of people like Katie Howson,Flowers and Frolics,OldSwan,NellieTheElephant,,were playing these tunes so there was no danger of them being forgotten.
I just hope that all future collectors at least buy their contributors a drink,as Im sure A D Townsend did.
A good collection of English Tunes,anyway.

30 May 07 - 05:27 PM (#2064361)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad

Dick Greenhaus: "I don't knew who closed this, or why, but I think it should remain open in case someone has something valuable to say."

Was this directed at me or just poorly timed & stated on your part?

30 May 07 - 05:40 PM (#2064370)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Stringsinger

The licensing organizations have grown increasingly powerful. Collectors are really not recognized by them because song royalties are considered individual intellectual property. The licensing organizations exist through collecting these royalties.

Collectors such as Lomax, Goldstein, Archie Green etc. have created an awareness that there is such a thing as American folk songs and folk music. Without these collectors there would be no Mudcat or folk music revival.

I believe the solution is a special fund for PD material so that claimants have no jurisdiction over royalty distribution and can't publish or claim authorship of songs that are PD. This will not be popular with publishers, licensing organizations and songwriters who make big money from their songs.

In this way, the PD song (ie: folk music belonging to the people) will be protected from financial interests.

This would not impede the copyrights of legitimate songwriters, publishers and licensing organizations.

Frank

30 May 07 - 05:44 PM (#2064372)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

Does PD mean public domain.

30 May 07 - 06:03 PM (#2064387)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Steve Shaw

QUOTE From: WFDU - Ron Olesko - PM

"This is a complicated subject. A contract is a contract, and while 'moral' issues may be present, there are also 'ethical' questions.

I'm not defending Bulmer, everything I have read about him makes him sound slimey. Still, I think there are other sides to the issue."

Yes indeed, there are other sides to the issue all right. Here's one of them. One of the very finest singers in the English or any other tradition made some sublime albums. The rights to those recordings passed to a bloke who will not allow this wonderful man to make a single penny from them, in spite of the fact that he came upon very hard times and was unable to perform ever again. Please do not bore me with you weasel moral, ethical or contractual issues.

30 May 07 - 06:53 PM (#2064421)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

This is a complicated subject. A contract is a contract, and while 'moral' issues may be present, there are also 'ethical' questions. I'm not defending Bulmer, everything I have read about him makes him sound slimey. Still, I think there are other sides to the issue.

I can't find where Mr Olesko said this. Did it vanish when Joe Offer issued his red closure notice?
Mr O to be just as slimey a git as Bulmer.
Mr O describes himself as a dinosaur, but weren't these gentle creatures?
Yes, he's trying to bully me by threatening to publish a book of lies about me, but to what end?
I can strike back. Those deprived of their intellectual property, and thus a source of income, because of the terms of a contract can not - because that contract is 'legal'.

The 'other side of the issue' is exactly as described by Steve Shaw above. Although not obliged in law to do anything at all, Bulmer's publishing company could perform a humanitarian function not only for the artists but a lucrative one for himself as well as them by selling the rights back.

Please do not bore me either with attempts to justify why he should not.

30 May 07 - 07:28 PM (#2064444)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Steve Shaw

I copied and pasted the quote from a post up the thread - it's still there!

Cheers

Steve

30 May 07 - 07:34 PM (#2064451)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Ah, yes.

Found it under the bit where he says he doesn't need my permission to write anything he damn well likes about me.

What a scumbag.

And wrong. Well, maybe he doesn't need permission but if he does it, he'll pay.

30 May 07 - 08:00 PM (#2064480)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

Dianne, I do understand that you find it difficult to hold a civil conversation and you truly do not wish to even consider a point of view other than your own (same with Steve Shaw), but if you took a moment to really read what I wrote I think you would realize how ridiculous you are looking to the rest of us.

I am very upset that this wonderful music is not available to be shared. I would also be upset if someone took advantage of a source singer. That does not appear to be the case of this conversation.

Also, check with a lawyer. I could very easily write a book about you without your permission. No, I could not write "anything he damn well likes about me" if I did not have evidence of the truth. I realize that my "book" example may have clouded your ability to comprehend, and I realize that by posing an alternate view you had to resort to name calling and attempt to demean me. It is a shame we could not discuss this issue as human beings because I probably could have learned something from you and Steve. I'm glad I discovered the truth early.

30 May 07 - 08:04 PM (#2064486)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: dick greenhaus

Jim Lad-
I wasn't referring to anybody. I just don't believe in closing threads unless there's a very good reason to do so.

BTW, if anyone haven't seen the "Madison County Project", h/she should. http://www.folkstreams.net/film,120
It not only has some fine music and stunning visuals, it also deals very specifically with the problems of , and with, collectors. Nothing about Bulmer, though.

30 May 07 - 09:42 PM (#2064550)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: M.Ted

My goodness--Ron was only making a point--and rather cheerfully--. Ms. Easby has made a very uncheerful threat. One assumes that she is on the other side of the pond--if not, maybe we should all get our tire chains and camp out in Ron's driveway for a few days;-)

31 May 07 - 01:19 AM (#2064641)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

A specimen of pondlife called 'M.Ted' who cannot even spell 'tyre' and is unaware even of which country I live in is called upon to provide 'evidence' for my 'biography', thinks it's ever so jolly to assist Mr Olesko in his gutter-press project over which it would be 'uncheerful' of me to sue.

These Murkans are labouring under the illusion that there is an 'alternate view' to be taken of CM's unspeakable treatment of artists and the way to deal with this is to shout down and threaten people in England who oppose Bulmer and all his works/non-works. Somebody named after a glasshouse who really ought not to throw stones is even content to import and sell product that further deprives these artists of a living.

There is no valid 'alternate view'.

You want to discuss the issue 'like human beings'? No, the sole issue is to force/persuade/compel CM to act like human beings, and even make some money for themselves. Anyone who refuses to acknowledge this is a mealy-mouthed, weasel-worded scumbag, and you have to wonder seriously just what they are in it for. Not the music or to salvage the damaged lives of the performers so affected, that's for sure.

31 May 07 - 02:57 AM (#2064656)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Rusty Dobro

Hmmm. I know someone who lives in a little 'English' village in Spain, where the ex-pats are constantly at each other's throats due to something someone said out of turn, or more usually, something that someone has imagined or misheard. I know nothing of Ms Easby, or why she should seriously imagine anyone would write (or read) a book about her, but I think I can suggest a suitable retirement destination.........

And really, us Brits are on dodgy ground criticising the (usually) more logical spellings from the US.

31 May 07 - 03:20 AM (#2064664)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Rusty Dobro:

What an incredibly stupid name. Why don't you just scrap the non-instrument?
No, you don't know me, Fortunately,
Nor does Mr Olesko nor do any of the named potential 'informants' (apart from Dick Miles, slightly, and I'm certain he wouldn't participate).
Yet Mr O threatens to publish a book of lies and speculation purely to try and discredit my (and probably others') opposition to a music publishing scandal.
And objects pathetically when I fail to find this funny.
How dare you suggest any of this is 'imagined' or 'misheard'?
Read the threads and find out what the issues are before opening your mouth.
Musicians are suffering and dying and you think I'm wrong? Shame on you.

31 May 07 - 03:50 AM (#2064677)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Rusty Dobro

Wow! Ever since I started 'catting, I've dreamed of getting a reaction like that, and today's the day! For the record, I posted after reading the entire thread and forming my own opinion, aided by whatever background knowledge I already had on the subject. Oh, and I love (but do not confine my musical activities to)my non-instrument.

The whole book idea started with a theoretical suggestion from Ron on the 29th to illustrate a point. I found that out by reading the thread.

Oh, and is it suddenly an offence to have a silly name on the Mudcat? That should thin the ranks a bit!

31 May 07 - 04:07 AM (#2064686)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

What is truly offensive is trivialising an extremely serious subject of which you, Mr O and Mr G appear to have no background knowledge whatsoever, or if you have any, are choosing to disregard it and are thus not nice people at all.

You are casting aside the wishes and needs of artists in favour of someone who isn't even exploiting them for cash. Just being inexplicably mean and bloody-minded.

In short, what you are is a load of scumbags.

31 May 07 - 04:15 AM (#2064688)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Rusty Dobro

I've made a new friend! Is there a Mr Easby?

31 May 07 - 05:27 AM (#2064721)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

when does collecting become hoarding.
Most collectors publish their material,singers and musicians then benefit,most collectors look after their sources in one way or another.
I myself have published two tutors[with my own arrangements for song accompaniment]all traditional material or my own compositions.
I collected some tunes from an old fiddle player [who became afriend],none of thse tunes do I intend to publish,but have used to understand local fiddle technique and listened to for my own pleasure,and yes I looked after my source ,on one occassion I found him alone in his cottage [he hadnt eaten for two days]so I got his shopPing, lit a fire for him etc.
the problem with todays society is the looking after no 1 syndrome,Every collector has a moral duty to look after their sources.

31 May 07 - 05:37 AM (#2064724)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,meself

Ron: Say you're sorry for pretending you would write a biobgraphy of Diane. Diane: Say you're sorry for calling people names. The rest of you: GET BACK TO WORK!

31 May 07 - 06:56 AM (#2064749)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

so I appeal to Dave Bulmer to do the MORALLY right thing.
he clearly has a better side re Mick Tems.
Nic Jones has been an inspiration for many people,and has given alot of people a lot of pleasure.
Dave give him agood deal he deserves it.

31 May 07 - 08:21 AM (#2064805)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST

Damn, you people piss me off. It's a moot point! I'm sick of revisionist history from some pseudo-clever tangential fabricated moral stance with no basis except to make the accuser's ego larger. A plague on all your huts!

That said, the work done was great--and I appreciate it.

Art Thieme

31 May 07 - 08:29 AM (#2064810)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Sttaw Legend

I have always enjoyed a pint of Bulmers to quench my thirst

31 May 07 - 08:36 AM (#2064814)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: M.Ted

Poor Ms. Easby! She needs to stop hiding when they bring the med cart around.

31 May 07 - 08:53 AM (#2064828)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: dick greenhaus

y'know--the subject of a collector's responsibility to his sources is one worth examining. It's a pity that there's so little interest in doing so.

31 May 07 - 09:06 AM (#2064837)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

The responsibility of a copyright owner to those whose intellectual property and potential source of income is being infringed and negated is worth examining - and enforcing.

It's a pity there are so many wankers about too thick, selfish and/or mean-spirited to realise this.

31 May 07 - 09:08 AM (#2064839)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: dick greenhaus

Then why not start a thread about that instead of diverting this one? Better yet, start a thread on how to negotiate a reasonable contract.

31 May 07 - 09:22 AM (#2064850)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

The OP in his original post asks whether a collector paid his source for the tunes.

As this collector is the very same copyright owner who denies the artists whose rights he holds the means of making a living from them, the connection is clear and apposite.

How to negotiate a reasonable contract is just another hareng saur (or an indication of how little you choose to understand the situation).

31 May 07 - 09:52 AM (#2064868)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Dave the Gnome

I know I'll regret this and be accused of being thick, but I don't care:-)

Who is the OP?

Dave

31 May 07 - 09:56 AM (#2064872)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

The Original Poster, Captain Birdseye, who knew what he was doing.

31 May 07 - 09:59 AM (#2064878)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad

Dick Miles

31 May 07 - 10:01 AM (#2064881)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,Russ

Dick Greenhaus,

I tried.

I'll try again.

In the southern mountains of the United States it is NOT unusual for traditional sources singers and/or their heirs and assigns to feel that they should benefit if money is made from the material collected from them.

You might be surprised at the bitter responses that names like Lomax, Niles, and Peer evoke even today in some places.

IMHO prima facie they have a valid point.

IMHO the question to be addressed is NOT "Why should they get anything?" but rather "Why shouldn't they get anything."

To dismiss their claims as sour grapes is simply to refuse to address the issue that this thread was supposed to address.

To insist that they should've read the fine print is simply a "blame the victim" approach to the problem.

Russ (Permanent GUEST self-appointed spokesman for the voiceless)

31 May 07 - 10:10 AM (#2064890)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Dave the Gnome

Ahhhhh! Thanks Diane.

You have pointed me in the right direction before when I have missed some of your points so can I ask another couple of questions?

I saw the thread as a genuine question and there have been some interesting contributions. What do you think Dick (Miles) meant to do, if it was not just to discuss the 'morality of collecting'?

Why refer to Dick Greenhaus as Mr Polytunnel or Greenhouse or any other derivation of his real name? I don't understand that point at all. I changed my handle to my real name to avoid confusion. You did the same recently. How come you want to create a pseudonym for someone who has never used anything but his real name?

Nothing to do with the topic I know. No hidden agenda here though and no axe to grind. I just want to know and, maybe, other people will benefit from that knowledge as well.

Cheers

Dave

31 May 07 - 10:17 AM (#2064898)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Mr Gnome:

(1) To discuss the (lack of) morality of a particular collector and rights holder.

(2) To show that I can take the piss too.

31 May 07 - 10:37 AM (#2064910)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: M.Ted

Actually, Ms. Easby, what all the name calling and mudslinging, you have shown is that you are a totally self-absorbed fool, who does more damage to your cause than good.

Those who are either indifferent or unsympathetic you laugh at you, and those who care about the issue shake their heads in despair. Well done!

31 May 07 - 10:53 AM (#2064927)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Dave the Gnome

OK. I am not sure about 1 because I think Dick (M) is more straitforward than that. If he wanted to discuss anything but the morality of collecting I think he would have said so. What do I know though... I don't think Dick (G) was taking the piss but at least I am in on the joke now:-)

Thanks

Back to thread. Is there not a big difference between collecting traditional music, which I thought we were talking about, and owning copyrights? How come the two seem to have become tangled here and is it worth trying to get back on track? Or would everyone else rather have two discussions at the same time?

Dave

PS - To anyone unversed in the other in joke can I explain that I used to be little when Diane was more upper class. Got it?

:D

31 May 07 - 10:56 AM (#2064930)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Well, Mr Ted (I assume you are a Mr?)
Your syntax is more than a tad adrift.
I sling mud at targets that deserve it, such as a musbiz shit who has harmed a lot of artists, many of whom I know personally,
I namecall those who ask for it, and you loud-mouthed, ill-informed Murkans are sure as hell doing that.
In other words, I know well who's to blame and have contempt for those who fail to, or decline to recognise wrong when it's staring them in the face.
You? I know nothing about you except that you are a damn Yankee fool that can't spell.
You stuck his nose into a fraught issue about which you have patently no comprehension.
That Mr O thinks you could provide source material for a book about me proves he has more than a few slates off his roof too.
And who appointed you head prefect anyway?

31 May 07 - 11:01 AM (#2064936)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Sigh.

Mr Polshaw, shall I draw one of those fancy html marquees and write in big, moving text for you?

No, I won't cos I'm going out, but surely you are aware that the 'collector' and the 'copyright owner' are one and the same person?

31 May 07 - 11:05 AM (#2064937)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Dave the Gnome

You might as well, Diane - You know how slow I am to pick up on the Macheavellian nuances of the Mudcat:-)

And in the words of some great Lancashire poet or another, No, I know nowt!

Cheers

Dave

31 May 07 - 11:12 AM (#2064945)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

OK, Dave, I'll conclude and leave by letting you know that I'm not nearly as pissed off as I might have been today because one of my greatest heroes (and here's the interesting bit for you, a LANCASHIRE musician) actually asked ME to be his MySpace friend today.

Hurrah!

31 May 07 - 11:26 AM (#2064956)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Dave the Gnome

Ooooh - You fiend! Don't keep us in suspenders like that! Who?

:D

31 May 07 - 11:36 AM (#2064964)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad

Diane, be mine!

31 May 07 - 12:08 PM (#2064978)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

Diane, I assume you are actually attempting to be funny with your posts, and I will give you credit for that. No human being that has an ounce of dignity would stoop to the levels that you have appeared to in your posts.

For someone who seems so concerned about "morality", your ignorance in defending your position seems alarming. What does it say about a person when they refer to other peope as "pondscum" and "scumbags"? It says that person is lacking in common decency and lacks the ability to function in real world settings. I am sure your posts make you feel powerful, but I hope in real life you have a bit more compassion than you have shown to all of us. Don't forget, your words will live on long after you take your final dirt nap, and anyone who reads this thread won't need my book to form an opinion of you. I will chalk it up to your attempt at dry wit and not really a reflection of your real character.

I agree with Dick, and I would hope that this discussion can discuss collectors and how they handled their sources. One item that has always struck me about these songs is that in their original setting, as family heirlooms so to speak, could you place a value on it? These were songs that were not used as a source of income for the singer (for the most part), what would constitute "fair" compensation? If I choose to share something that has no immediate financial value, would it be fair to expect something later?

Also, for songs that were shared in the folk tradition, is it fair for one source singer to take credit? Was Frank Proffit the only person singing Tom Dooley before he shared it with the Warners? Perhaps someone who knows the story more intimately cold share their thoughts, I am really curious.

31 May 07 - 12:15 PM (#2064983)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: dick greenhaus

Ron-
Grayson and Whitter recorded Tom Dooley well before Frank Warner collected it from Frank Proffit.

31 May 07 - 12:25 PM (#2064990)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: M.Ted

Diane--Here is a story for *you*--I heard it a few years back, at a music industry event--the teller was a man who was so important that when he told it, everyone stopped talking to listen--and they got the message!

Years ago, in a series of television interviews, a certain once-popular recording artist blamed his impoverished situation on a specific record producer, who he claimed had robbed him, and had lied to him, and had tricked him into signing away "rights", and all other sorts of terrible things--

His story made such an impact that the specific record producer (who had not fallen on hard times at all) received many angry letters and threatening postcards. He was "told off" on the street, and he could not dine out, because ill-wishers interrupted his dessert.

After a few weeks of humilation, the record producer was approached by a representative of the artist, who suggested a comprehensive array of projects, including a new album, a retrospective boxed set, and an MTV special. Of course, a healthy cash advance was asked for, and a signing bonus--because his client was "starving"--

The producer said, "If your fat-mouthed client is starving, I have a suggestion: he can go eat shit!"

31 May 07 - 12:37 PM (#2065003)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad

Way off base, M Ted.
No need for that!

31 May 07 - 12:52 PM (#2065025)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Ron Olesko:

Joking?

That just typifies how little you know of the sufferings and losses of the artists, and how appalling your lack of care is if you think it's a laughing matter.
And I am not 'defending a position'. What's to defend?
I'm explaining, for the kazillionth time and as many others have also done what you are apparently too dim/obtuse to acknowledge: people have lost livelihoods, work opportunities, their intellectual property and their lives.
Obviously I'm angry - and with massive justification - at your trivialising sneer that all the artists have to do is negotiate a new contract. How fatuous.
And as for compassion, how dare you utter the word?
And what makes you think YOU want some?
Doesn't come into it. The entire Leader/Trailer lost catalogue is printed out in the Bright Phoebus thread. Go and weep over that and the artists still living who are affected. If you know how.

M.Ted:

You have to be completely and utterly sick in the head to equate this tale with the experience of the artists caught in the CM scandal.
Whoever you are, you deserve your 'tires' slashed

Jim Brannigan:

Sorry, can't last more than 3 bars of Star Of The County Down, especially at that tempo.

31 May 07 - 01:06 PM (#2065033)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,Russ

Dick Greenhaus,

Why did I bother?

Ordinarily I would simply have lurked this thread briefly.

I've learned that the appearance of certain sets of names in a thread guarantees that it won't go anywhere that I want to go.

Against my better judgment I added by 2 cents. The question the thread was intended to address is one that I as a traditional musician and collector, and my friends who are traditional musicians and collectors, care about.

Live and learn,

Russ (Permanent GUEST and lurker)

31 May 07 - 01:13 PM (#2065037)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: dick greenhaus

Russ-
I'm glad you did bother.I think that the question is an important one. I'm thinking of opening a moderated thread on the subject just to keep off the irrelevancies. What think you?

31 May 07 - 01:14 PM (#2065038)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad

Oh no! Diane doesn't like my singing.
Diane: Please give me another chance. I'll go back to the studio and slow it down for you. Anything!
Please say you'll be my friend!!
PLEASE!

31 May 07 - 01:27 PM (#2065044)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

. . . and 'twas the OP who mentioned 'morality', not me.

I tend to use the word 'ethical'.

Morality (or lack thereof) is especially apt for those absorbed in money-grabbing commerce or getting hold of CDs by purely selfishly-motivated means and no consideration whatsoever for the performer, whether the source carrier or the recording artist.

Which is probably why it was chosen in the first place.

Whatever. The 'permanent guest' is right about that question the thread was meant to address is being sidelined. This is because of those out only for what they can get for themselves and sod the actual performers and anyone on their side.

Yes, Dick Greenhouse, do start a musbiz thread on how best to screw artists. I know you think they're irrelevant. Just what we need. I'll be there to put you right.

31 May 07 - 01:33 PM (#2065047)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad

Ethical... hmmm! So what kind of ethics are you exercising when you choose to insult a performers interpretation of a song, on a public forum such as this?

31 May 07 - 01:39 PM (#2065051)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

If you are talking abour your own effort, well I didn't listen to it, as I said.
It might have been quite good, if you like very uptempo renditions of SOTCD, which I don't.
There are many, many other settings of this tune which I prefer.
You could spend a lifetime collecting just Dives & Lazarus.
And certain people could make a career of nicking it and making a packet.
In fact, they already have.

31 May 07 - 01:41 PM (#2065054)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad

So I searched "Diane Easby" and to my complete and utter amazement, all I found were several links to forums such as this one, where you take time out of your day to go around picking fights and insulting people.
And I thought I was special.
Heck: You never even noticed me.
Not even a little speed bump an your merry trail.
Hmmmph!

31 May 07 - 01:46 PM (#2065062)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad

"If you are talking about your own effort, well I didn't listen to it, as I said"
So, you didn't make it all the way through the first few bars of my lovely wife's fiddling to hear me sing and based on that, you not only formed your opinion but chose to air it, publicly!
You're the Countess, aren't you!
Eh?
You are. I know you are.
You must be. There cannot be two of you!

31 May 07 - 01:47 PM (#2065063)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad

And I will not give you 100

31 May 07 - 01:48 PM (#2065064)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Scoville

I met Frank Proffit, Jr., years ago at a music festival and he was quite clear that he considered his dad to be the source only for the version of "Tom Dooley" that became so popular, and in no way for the song in general. Not having heard the earlier recordings, I can't comment on that, but he didn't appear to be making any attempts to be monopolizing it.

31 May 07 - 01:48 PM (#2065065)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

I 'pick fights' (as you put it) with Friends Of Celtic Music. Or, as I would prefer to describe it, take issue with their utter selfishness and greed.

As for being insulting, I can do that after it's been done to me.

And as for your MySpace page, I'll listen to the uploads later on. Though not SOTCD.
Till then, I'm not qualified to judge how 'special' you are. If at all.

31 May 07 - 01:50 PM (#2065067)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad

Don't! I'd rather take my music down than have you spend any time with it at all. And I Will!

31 May 07 - 01:54 PM (#2065071)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Suit yourself.

Actually, I've never googled myself before. It links mostly to my fRoots reviews. And I never bother to write up crap, or even go there. I'd rather send back the comps, stay in and make my own racket. Less bother.

31 May 07 - 02:01 PM (#2065081)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: dick greenhaus

The geneology of the "pop" (Kington Trio) version of Tom Dooley is pretty well documented. Frank Warner collected it from Frank Proffit, who sang it to a somewhat different tune than is usually heard. Frank revised the tune a bit, and sang it frequently. It was picked up by the Folksay Trio (Bob Carey, Erik Darling, Roger Sprung), who speeded it up a bit and added the "hitch"--the syncopation caused by a pause between Tom and Dooley. The Kingston Trio got it from them, sang it essentially unchanged, and made folk/pop history.

31 May 07 - 02:41 PM (#2065107)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: M.Ted

True story--which is to say it was told as a true story, complete with names which are no longer important, by someone who knew and was known by both parties.

My point in relating it is that if a resolution is to come of this--it won't be the result of calling Dave Bullmer names.

31 May 07 - 02:45 PM (#2065110)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

I'd call him BULMER if I were you.
This is, after all, what his name is.
Or better still, BASTARD.

31 May 07 - 02:58 PM (#2065120)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: M.Ted

One hopes that "Dave" isn't reading this thread, or this forum--

31 May 07 - 03:11 PM (#2065133)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Course he is. Especially as his gopher George/Tyke seems to have absconded.
Ah, but no. 'Tis Thursday and he'll be off down t'session at t'Yorkshire Lass . . .

31 May 07 - 03:19 PM (#2065136)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

Suit yourself Diane. You are an ignorant individual and not capable of listening to anyone but yourself. You've shown you have the same compassion as Bulmer, and the same lack of caring for anyone but yourself. You aren't showing any compassion for these artists, just your own ego. Your failure to discuss the issue coherently shows that. Enjoy your little world.

Dick, I'm glad you pointed out Grayson and Whitter. I've never had an opportunity to hear it. If you have, how similar was it to Proffit's? I've heard the Folksay version of it (Roger Sprung will sell you a cassette!) and it is amazing how much the Kingston Trio "borrowed" from it.

Do you know what, if anything, the Warner's did for Proffit? If his version was similar to the one performed by Grayson and Whitter, what was their source?

31 May 07 - 03:36 PM (#2065145)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

I'm an 'ignorant individual'. That is as a result of having met more or less everyone in the Leader/Trailer catalogue while Bill Leader was recording and some of them are still personal friends. And having lived with the ongoing problem as it grew over two decades. Yeah, right.

You?

There isn't an 'issue' to discuss, let alone defend. Other than that, scroll your way back to my post at 12.52. Don't you dare suggest there's anything to joke about. That's sick.

But you don't have to listen to what I have to say. You don't anyway. Archives everywhere (not just here) are overflowing. Go away and begin to remedy your own ignorance.

31 May 07 - 03:45 PM (#2065154)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

I'm glad you admitted you were ignorant. That is a first step. Your next step would be to actually read what people are telling you. Not once did I say you were ignorant of the facts. Your ignorance is the way you

I would love to listen to what you have to say on the issue, but all you are doing is insulting people instead of sharing your views. When someone mentions something - like the FACT that contract law has some bearing on the issue, you choose to demean the person instead of putting forth information to help us change our views. That is simply a sign that you can't defend your position in that case and attempt to slander is your only way out of the corner.

Of course I agree, as probably everyone here does, that Bulmer should be a humanitarian and ignore the contract and do the right thing. It is a shame these artists were naive in their youth, but we all make mistakes. Your one-sided views have importance, but you are not going to make youself heard by simply insulting those who might have something more to say.

I will be here. I'm not going away, neither are the rest of us. I have a book to write.

31 May 07 - 03:58 PM (#2065161)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

. . . y'know, Olesco&Polytunnel&Teddywassname are so desperate to score some petty victory over me (for what?

Cos they want to stick up for their mate Bulmer?

Cos I'm a woman who shouldn't (acording to them) involve herself in 'boy's stuff'?)

that they're tying themselves up in untermale snarlings that are presumably meant to intimidate.

What fragile egos. One could speculate on the underlying problem . . . but the plight of the artists is so much more important.

Sod 'em.

The next Battle of Knaresborough is the one to win.

31 May 07 - 04:15 PM (#2065169)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

I would love to listen to what you have to say on the issue

No you wouldn't, you patronising pillock. You have never listened to me nor to anyone else who has all the facts ingrained on their inner being.

And there you go again, being patronising to the artists too. They were not naive in their youth. The contracts were standard for the time and caused no problem until many years later when . . . enter D R Bulmer (and N Sharpley).

Nor are my views 'one-sided'. I think as just about everyone else here on the spot feels, give or take the odd (extremely odd) half dozen Bulmer apologists who are doubtless down at the Yorkshire Lass at this minute, hopefully choking on their Black Sheep.

Fer chrissake, it is not a matter of 're-negotiating the contracts' but of buying back the rights and enabling those still left to control thei own work and destiny. I find it very difficult to understand why you bunch of grasping, transatlantic businessmen fail to grasp this. Or perhaps I don't . . .

31 May 07 - 04:31 PM (#2065185)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

" y'know, Olesco&Polytunnel&Teddywassname are so desperate to score some petty victory over me (for what? "

No, we are not. This isn't a game. This is meant to be a discussion where we can learn and share views, and you have succeeded in ruining it. Congratulations.

You have little compassion and even less understanding. You seem to be the only one enjoying an opportunity to insult people. You obviously do not practice what you preach.

31 May 07 - 04:35 PM (#2065189)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: M.Ted

Litigation that would resolve all the ownership, rights, use and contract issues related to the Leader/Trailer catalog would be protracted and expensive, and it is unlikely that anyone involved would gain enough to make it worthwhile. Short of that, a meeting of the minds would have to occur between Dave Bulmer and the participating artists, their representatives, or their heirs.

Even that "meeting of the minds" would require a significant amount of legal research (sorting out copyrights, for instance) -so it is likely that nothing much will happen, unless someone steps forward with a love of folk music and deep pockets--

An alternative might be a sheparded, one-at-a-time-as-need-arises process, but that would require cooperation--

31 May 07 - 04:39 PM (#2065197)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

cooperation

. . . meanwhile, down at t'Yorkshire Lass . . .

Hah!

31 May 07 - 04:49 PM (#2065210)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

M.Ted - we have had similar issues here in the U.S. I know many artists signed contracts and lost their rights. Can you think of any cases similar to what happened with Bulmer where no accord could be reached?

31 May 07 - 04:55 PM (#2065214)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: dick greenhaus

Ron-
Grayson and Whitter are probably the original source, as far as recordings are concerned. They sang and played music that was current in Kentucky in the late 1920s. Their music is available on CD (I have it on Document and County CDs). I also have a Folktrax recording of Frank Warner singing it.
I can also supply Frank Profitt's version (on several CDs), the Folksay Trio's version and, in a pinch, I can find a copy of the Kingston Trio doing it.
Ain't CDs wonderful!

31 May 07 - 05:11 PM (#2065220)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jeri

Russ, Dick and whomever - there are other people who read threads and completely skip posts by those who don't have much to say and say it frequently. I'll read yours, though. Please don't change your modus operandi because of the persistantly obnoxious. That you don't get sucked in or scared off is why folks respect you. (Speaking for me and whoever agrees.)

31 May 07 - 05:41 PM (#2065240)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad

Yeah: This time I have to agree. Not too often that we are visited by someone whose only intent is to insult others.

31 May 07 - 05:58 PM (#2065255)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Steve Shaw

Well, Ron old boy, I told it like I view it. It is not a complicated subject to most of us, in fact it is a rather simple and clear issue of the right thing to do versus the wrong thing to do. You have unfortunately revealed your capacity to play the insult game like a good 'un yet you tar others with the second-hand brush used on yourself first. Why don't you just tell us what you think Mr B. should do instead of sittin' on your high horse pontificating loftily about "how complicated these issues can be" or whatever it was you said. Are you a lawyer, struck off or not?

31 May 07 - 06:13 PM (#2065271)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

Steve, I'm sorry if you seem to think I am sitting on a high horse. Yes, I do see it as a complicated issue and it appears I am not alone with that thought. Usually when a situation goes on as long as this one has, there is more to the story than appears on the surface.

No, I am not a lawyer - but I do have respect for them. I'm not sure what the term "struck off" means, perhaps you could educate me about that as well. While it does seem that litigation has become a popular pastime and ridiciulous suits are brought to court, there is a great service they provide. In addition to my radio show,I am the booker for a local folk music club. (Our clubs operate very differently from yours in case you weren't aware.) We recently moved to a new venue and had to draw up an agreement with the town. There was a lot of negotiation and the purpose was to protect both parties. We did not sign the agreement blindly, and we made sure our interests were kept. I also negotiate contracts with the artists who have performed at our club, and again we insure that both parties are satisified. No one is pressured into signing anything. When artists appear on my radio show, we also make an agreement that no recordings are issued and the artists performances are protected. There are many artists on Mudcat who know me, and I think for you, Diane or anyone else to compare me to Bulmer is wrong.

I do not know what Mr. Bulmer should do because I do not have all the facts. The purpose of discussion was to bring up information and talk about it. You and Diane have more of a desire for those of us who are not familiar with the story to simply take your word for everything.

When I entered this conversation I posed a question. Diane immediately made a comment about my lawn ("sod off") and I will have you know the grass is growing perfectly fine. You then chose to jump at me. If you wish to play in traffic, you take your chances.

31 May 07 - 06:25 PM (#2065284)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

I entered this thread at 12.43 to take issue with the dodgy CD salesman who was insulting Bill Leader, and talking completely out-of-order bollocks. Nowt new in that, he does it all the time to try and make out that his mate Bulmer is somehow above board with his dubious collecting and hoarding activities of both the tune and the record label varieties.

Together with the OP and a nice new-and-to-the-point Cornish person called Steve, we hammered home (yes, repetitively) the basic points to the not very nice and definitely dim Murkans who persistently fail to get that that anyone who sides with the beast of Harrogate is going to get the rough edge of our tongues.

So they went off on a particularly stupid diversion to plan an unauthorised, indeed entirely fabricated volume about ME (why?) and they're now waffling on about Tom Dooley and the flamin' Kingston Trio, FFS.

OTOH, WE kept on topic (except for little excursions to Montauk, Lancashire and Knaresborough - not that the last is off-topic as it's where the Beast actually lives)), and snapped at them far less than they deserved for patronising and sexually harassing drivel. Now they're in a petulant strop cos their 'boys' talk has been challenged. Aaaaaah, when it's all they CAN talk about, unaware as they are of the actual issues and they couldn't give a toss anyway.

Tough. How d'ya think the artists feel?

31 May 07 - 06:33 PM (#2065288)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Indeed, yes. As Steve says, it's not at all complicated.
Not to the average brain.
You can act humanely and honourably or you can treat people like shit.
The only puzzling aspect is why does Bulmer do it when he's getting sod all out of it himself.
To revive the mantra, 'Do the deal, Dave'.

31 May 07 - 06:48 PM (#2065294)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

What is a sruck off solicitor?

Bulmer's business partner Neil Sharpley, that's who.
Had a run in with the Law Society for doing something a bit naughty with a client's money.

31 May 07 - 06:50 PM (#2065297)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

"You can act humanely and honourably or you can treat people like shit."

Well put.

31 May 07 - 07:19 PM (#2065311)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

DAVEBULMER has been blacklisted by the Musicians union,AND sharpley has been struck off by the law society.
DaveBulmer appears not to have acted honourably, with the exception of MickTems,however there is still time,for him to alter his reputation,

31 May 07 - 07:20 PM (#2065313)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Steve Shaw

It is ridiculously disingenuous to wring your hands as if the artists who "signed away their rights," or however it happened, were canny, grasping, devious individuals who knew what they were doing and were somehow taking a high-level calculated risk with their intellectual property in order to make a quick buck or something. Your average soul in the folk music world is just not like that. Ordinary chaps and chapesses they were, and are, who on the whole don't do legal stuff not least because it's perceived to cost an arm and a leg, so they, foolishly maybe and I'm the first to admit it, let someone else do the unwise deals. In other words, rip them off. Somebody please tell me where the morality is in a situation in which some bloke who does nothing but sit on recordings (not manuscripts or arrangements or tune-books but RECORDINGS, in which the artists did ALL the work, the blood, the sweat, the tears, the umpteen hundred takes, played and sang every note and probably impoverished themselves in the process by doing it instead of a day job, and much to the delight of all of us) and refuses to let the artists make a single penny out of their work for decades. Ron, old chap, I'll tell you how "complicated" an issue it is. It's a conflict between legal-technical and fairness-humanity. Who's side are you on, Ron? "Complications" are assuredly in the eye of the biased beholder.

Hands up all who want to hear "Ten Thousand Miles" in glorious CD-not-R quality in the knowledge that that wonderful piece of artistry will at last make a few quid for Nic Jones. Is your hand up, Ron, or are you contemplating all those complications?

31 May 07 - 07:38 PM (#2065325)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

Steve. I NEVER, EVER said I was on the side of "legal-technical". I do think that fairness-humanity is the right way for all of us to live our lives. However, we live in a world where we have to deal with "legal-technical" and it impossible to fight that with ONLY good intentions.

"Complications" are NOT only in the eye of a "biased" beholder, and while I admire your steadfast dedication to seeing the right thing done, you will never accomplish that until you learn how to educate and speak with those who either have different views or less access to the story.

The behavior that you and Diane have shown to us bears little resemblance to anyone who professes to have "fairness-humanity" as their mantra. The name calling and insinuation is not something that I would expect from someone in the folk community here in the U.S.

Steve, the issue that you raise - about someone sitting on their works and not allowing the artist to earn from it is not new. If you look at contracts that performers signed for movies and television in the early days, they also signed away their rights and did not earn a penny when their work was shown in syndicated reruns and now on DVD's. (Plus there is the issue of public domain, which may be different in the UK. "Intellectual property" becomes public domain after a period of time.) Many of these actors signed away their "intellectual property", and if you ever come to New Jersey I will be glad to take you the Actors Home in Englewood and let you meet some of the people who lost out.

The idea should be to change the future. Prevent Bulmers from every again screwing an artist. It is a shame about what happened, and I think people should be made aware. Is he releasing recordings? Is there a boycott? How is it publicized?

I am just curious to know - has Bulmer released ANY of these recordings to artists? If so, at what price? Has he made offers? What is his relationship with Dick Gaughin?

All of this is a sidetrack to the original topic, but I guess there is a relationship.

31 May 07 - 07:45 PM (#2065331)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,bored

Somebody please tell me where the morality is in a situation in which some bloke who does nothing but sit on recordings (not manuscripts or arrangements or tune-books but RECORDINGS, in which the artists did ALL the work, the blood, the sweat, the tears, the umpteen hundred takes, played and sang every note and probably impoverished themselves in the process

I suspect he paid for them.

31 May 07 - 08:02 PM (#2065347)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Steve Shaw

Well, bored guest, that clinches it then. Money talks. More than fairness, humanity, sympathy, honesty. A few quid up front and sublime art can be hidden away forever, and you argue in favour of that! Well, my non-complicated view is that Mr B's pounds are as nothing when put beside the wonderful work of the likes of Nic Jones, and I do know what I'm on about as I have an ancient, rotting but much-cherished cassette of Songs And Ballads and Noah's Ark Trap. Yep, pirated sometime way back in the mists of time and with as much hiss, wow and flutter as you could wish for. Wound the bugger back in with a pencil more times than I care to recall. Break into my house and nick that and I'd mourn. Maybe I should ease my conscience and send Nic a fiver. You know, if those recordings were released on proper CDs, reviewed in Froots and all that, played by Mr Harding and all that, I'd bet a tenner that you'd sell 20,000 copies in no time.

31 May 07 - 08:12 PM (#2065351)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Steve Shaw

What the flippin' 'eck has public domain got to do with this, Ron? And don't give me all that bullying association-by-name-calling accusation stuff. Just talk about the issue. I'm so sorry that you were offended ever so slightly by being called weasly. We are robust types around here and we robust types soak up the knocks and resume discussion of the issues. Now do you want to hear Nic singing Ten Thousand Miles on a proper CD that he gets royalities from or don't you? How hard is that? Un-weasel yourself, guv!

31 May 07 - 08:43 PM (#2065370)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,Member

"DAVEBULMER has been blacklisted by the Musicians union"

Name your source please I do not believe this is true?

31 May 07 - 09:14 PM (#2065387)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Big Mick

Diane, I get your points. I understand, and in some ways, agree. This is an important topic. What I don't understand is why you need to be a horse's ass in making the point. Actually, I do get it. Some folks, like little children, just act out to get attention. Congratulations, it worked. But being an asshole doesn't help folks to understand your brilliance. But then again, you really couldn't give a shit about that. You simply want attention. You got it.

Mick

31 May 07 - 09:52 PM (#2065405)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,.gargoyle

Them that has...... gets

Them that dont's ....don't

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

"morality?" Open the doors - and see all the people!!!! look inside....there ain't no "steeple"

Some pay 99cents - others spend 99 minutes and collect on-line.

31 May 07 - 10:05 PM (#2065413)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,.gargoyle

I have reel to reel recordings from the early 70's

They are in MY possesion - they belong to ME - when they are digitized and web-posted they "belong" to the world.

Now....do I sit, like a "setting hen" and sit and sit and sit (the recordings are mine...all mine) or seek out the original players and colloborate on "release dates????".....

SORRY...the recordings are mine....damn the writers, performers, studios....once "the genie has left the bottle" you will never get them to return.

CAMSCO is needs changing - the professional "folk" I know... cut out the "middle-man" five to eight years ago....CD's sell at $15.... from the artist direct....with 12.50 going directly to the artist.

Do It Yourself - DIY

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

31 May 07 - 10:30 PM (#2065425)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: dick greenhaus

Garg-
Glad you don't seem to have tired of beating the same dead horse. I'd point out that YOUR tape recordings only belong to you when the artist has assigned rights to you. And, once that happens, then they're YOURS to do with as you see fit.
The "professional folk" you know aren't recording for any known label--if they were, they'd pay the company a good piece for the efforts of recording and promoting them. If you don't want to buy from CAMSCO, that's fine. If you don't think that a retailer provides a service, that's fine, too.
CAMSCO has done some reasonably good work in helping artists get their work out. Peggy Seeger, Ewan MacColl, Margaret MacArthur, Skip Gorman, Louis Killen, Danny Spooner, Almeda Riddle, Bob Coltman---maybe they're not up in the ranks of the "professional folk" you know, but I think that a few people may have heard of them. CAMSCO has re-released authorized editions of their recordings. Then, too, where would you go to find labels like Document, Fledg'ling, Fellside, Springthyme, Sleepytown, Harbourtown, Veterans, Claddagh and a couple of dozen others that don't seem to be in your local music store.

31 May 07 - 11:40 PM (#2065454)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: M.Ted

If Dave Bulmer was the shrewd entrepreneur and exploiter of talent that some believe, one suspects that he would have come up with something more lucrative than recording folk music;-)

One is inclined to think that his limitations as a businessman, and his personal idiosyncracies are the factors that shaped the situation. I doubt that he sees anything wrong with the way he has handled things--all the entrepreneurs I have worked with were equipped with a resiliant self-confidence, even in the face of utter disaster--

31 May 07 - 11:46 PM (#2065458)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,highlandman

Sheesh, y'all.
I initially read this thread -- and have kept coming back to check -- because I thought I might learn something from it.
I have, but not what I had in mind.
O wad some power the giftie gie us....

01 Jun 07 - 01:11 AM (#2065488)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad

Tae see oorsel's as others see us. Or something like that.
To Gargoyle's rare but valid point.
In the past, all artists struggled until some company would take them on for a "Budget" recording. If the album failed, they were dropped but often remained tied up in some kind of contract for a while.
If they were successful, they were immediately tied into contracts which would keep them in poverty but provide some kind of fame.
Today, these companies and promoters pick up young bands, help them to produce albums which they cannot afford and put them out on the road with very little in the way of support or wages until they are beyond exhaustion. Slave Labour.
The independent artist can and does, sit in his/her office, manufacture his/her own albums, hire his/her own producer & studio, book his/her own gigs and create his/her own promo without ever leaving the swivel chair and would be a fool not to.
The technology is here and the timing is right.
Nothing at all to do with royalties but a noteworthy observation, none the less.
The less successful you are today, the better. In some ways.

01 Jun 07 - 01:50 AM (#2065496)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

don't give me all that bullying association-by-name-calling accusation stuff. Just talk about the issue

Oh, but they never do. Because they can't. They don't know because they don't think they need to and don't care anyway. After all this time and acres of explanation, all these pontificating, patronising suits can come up with is worship of their sort of business practice and tinpot legal 'theory' as though it were gospel, or more importantly, 'right'.

All the uncomplicated, unvarnished, shameful CM history has been unfolded YET AGAIN in recent days in the Bright Phoebus thread, yet still these pompous arses bleat that they know nothing of unauthorised sneaky CD-R releases, of the MU Notices against CM freely available for public viewing, Sharpley's Louth shenanigans, CM's Game Set Match injunction or what Dick Gaughan has had to say about his past association. And now it's our fault for not having TOLD them and for getting exasperated at their inability to do a tiny bit of basic research.

They're whingeing about having 'less access to the story' now. Bollocks. It's just a case of acquainting yourself with facts before placing fingers on keyboards. But no, they think they'll get by on ridicule, harassment and customary putdown of those who have been here all along. We don't 'have a different view'; other than having no explanation for Bulmer's motivation (who has?), we know what's actually occurred whereas you patently do not.

You talk about a 'folk community' in the US that behaves in a certain way (i.e. cow-tows to you?) but I don't see it on a map. Where is it? Even if such a Glockamara concept exists it has sod all to do with a shady company screwing musicians, and for what? And the very opposite of syndication and mass-produced commercial DVDs. You can. after all, take on Disney and WIN . . . (c.f. The Lion Sleeps Tonight).

Big Mick inquires why I have to be a 'horse's ass' in making these points. Simple. Just take a look at what I'm trying to get through to. But am I getting attention? Sadly not. Far more importantly, is Nic Jones et al getting attention? Far more sadly not. But that is what the aim is.

01 Jun 07 - 02:33 AM (#2065509)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad

I swear to God, I thought she was away to bed!

01 Jun 07 - 02:52 AM (#2065517)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Another recruit to The Order Of The Patronising Gits, I see.
It's past 0700 here.
Isn't it time YOU got off to bed over there?
After a sleep maybe there'd be a chance of a post with some vestige of coherency and relevance to the topic.
Or a tune that's rewritten out of 6/8.

01 Jun 07 - 03:09 AM (#2065522)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad

I don't know why but you have been nothing but rude to me, right from the start and if you care to check you will note that I was actually standing up for you.
Now please, read your prescription a little more carefully in order to avoid any more episodes like this one.

01 Jun 07 - 03:25 AM (#2065526)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Standing up for me?

No you weren't. You were trying to have a go at Greenhaus, Olesko & Co (worthy enough in itself) but got it wrong.

Then you descended into sexist crap, which is what I find rude and inappropriate (and off-topic).

Musically, I was thinking in particular of a tune like The Star Of Logy Bay which, when dehackneyfied, becomes half decent. Not rude, but helpful advice if you want it.

01 Jun 07 - 03:32 AM (#2065535)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad

Sexist? Me?
The Star of Logy Bay ... Dehacknefyed?

What the heck are you talking about?

01 Jun 07 - 03:54 AM (#2065544)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: treewind

""DAVEBULMER has been blacklisted by the Musicians union"
Name your source please I do not believe this is true?"

Dave Bulmer hasn't by name, but Celtic Music, the business for which he is effectively 100% responsible, has been listed in the "special notices" (now retitled "ask us first") section of the Musicians Union magazine.

Obviously it doesn't go into detail for good legal reasons, but gives this advice: "Members are advised that offers of engagement by or on behalf of the following should be reported to the relevant MU official BEFORE acceptance" followed by a list of business names and MU contacts. The list is updated every issue, but Celtic Music has been included in it in every issue for years.

As a matter of fact Dave Bulmer as an individual is a MU member and even on one of its regional committees, a cause of concern to some other members.

Anahata

01 Jun 07 - 07:04 AM (#2065600)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

I apologise DAVE BULMER has not been blacklisted by the Musicians Union,the company WITH which he is involved, Celtic Music has and is.
Celtic Music has been blacklisted.
so could CELTIC MUSIC or Dave Bulmer [whichever one is reponsible and whichever one has a remnant of moral values],behave decently, release NicJones cds and give Nic a good deal,Nicwas/is an inspiration to many people,and gave/ could still give,alot of pleasure to a lot of people ,it is the least Nic Deserves.
Dave Bulmer did the decent thing to Mick Tems,.Dave, do your image afavour and help Nic Jones .

01 Jun 07 - 07:04 AM (#2065601)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

150

01 Jun 07 - 08:12 AM (#2065624)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

There is a certain irony here in that Iam apologising to DaveBulmer,for confusing him with Celtic Music,When he is in possesion of at least two/possibly three mastertapes with which I was involved.ONE New Mexborough Concertina Quartet,two solo lps.
a lot of creative work went into those recordings,Cheating The tide,contained an extremely difficult peice for the English Concertina,a sousa march Washington Post,Plus some excellent clarinet playing.

01 Jun 07 - 08:58 AM (#2065660)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,Russ

Jeri,

I appreciate the the postive feedback.

Although I sometimes whine about Mudcat I've visited it regularly for years and don't plan to stop.

There's a lot of chaff but the wheat always makes it worth the effort.

I should admit that the paucity of my postings is mostly a function of lack of time. I try to avoid heat-of-the-moment, stream-of-consciousnes postings. Not always successfully, of course. One problem I consistently have is that by the time I've thought out a contribution, the thread is gone.

With mudcat, the strategy that works for me is to ignore the shrillest posts and a group of posters whose posts I have found unrewarding.

Ron,

A "moderated thread"? Where? I browse a few forums but Mudcat is the only I contribute to. What did you have in mind?

Russ (Permanent GUEST)

01 Jun 07 - 11:56 AM (#2065782)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: M.Ted

One suspects that Ms. Easby avoids sleep, on the idea that she must be on her guard at all times. As she has made clear in this thread, there are agents of Celtic Music everywhere. America, apparently, is rife with them. I had no idea.

01 Jun 07 - 12:10 PM (#2065786)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Stringsinger

Derroll Adams wrote "Portland Town". One of the members of the Kingston Trio claimed it as "traditional" but nonetheless received royalties for it. When Derroll contacted him about it, the KT guy said that he couldn't supply back royalties to Derroll because the money due was used up in his legal fees.

Welcome to the music business.

01 Jun 07 - 12:25 PM (#2065802)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

How bizarre that the Teddy should take such a keen interest in my sleeping habits. Is this a form of cyberstalking and if so why, one has to ask. Last night, since you inquire, I slept from a bit after 0100 till 0700 which is more than adequate.

Is the US the chief repository of agents employed by musbiz shits? Undoubtedly, but it's a flourishing and expanding activity, particularly in Japan. However, to equate CM with, say, Sony is ludicrous in the extreme, though Teddy is patently an ursine creature of little brain. Vindictive too, to try and convey CM's treatment of artists and those who oppose it as a joke. I'd call it sick and distasteful.

01 Jun 07 - 12:27 PM (#2065805)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad

I'll never get past the Irish girl in Victoria, who used to introduce "The Evening Bells" as a song she had written at her father's funeral. Until I caught her, that is.
One of Thomas Moore's finest pieces, that one but using your father's death as a backdrop to something you've stolen....
Nothing surprises me now.

01 Jun 07 - 12:36 PM (#2065816)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

YES,but this music business ethic has not always been present in the folk world ,do we all want to end up like the pop world at the mercy of people like Don Arden,it is up to everyone involved on the folk scene to behave in an ethical manner.
Unlike MrsThatcher,I do believe society exists,and if we want a better society,those people in the society have to treat each other in the way they would like to be treated themselves.
I am sure Dave Bulmer would not like to be treated the way he treated Topic and NicJones,if he is perplexed by peoples concern about Celtic Music,he needs to put himself in the shoes of all those people on the leader[and others] catalogue,wohse music has been kept out pf circulation.

01 Jun 07 - 12:41 PM (#2065819)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: M.Ted

The only thing that concerns me about you, Diane, is that you may be a danger to yourself or others.

01 Jun 07 - 12:58 PM (#2065831)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,bored

"It is ridiculously disingenuous to wring your hands as if the artists who "signed away their rights," or however it happened, were canny, grasping, devious individuals who knew what they were doing and were somehow taking a high-level calculated risk with their intellectual property in order to make a quick buck or something. Your average soul in the folk music world is just not like that. Ordinary chaps and chapesses they were, and are, who on the whole don't do legal stuff not least because it's perceived to cost an arm and a leg, so they, foolishly maybe and I'm the first to admit it, let someone else do the unwise deals. In other words, rip them off." (from Steve Shaw)

Did Bulmer sign the contracts that r"ripped" these folk off? Not the way I heard it.

01 Jun 07 - 01:39 PM (#2065859)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

I don't wish the motheaten, trashy Teddy to be 'concerned' about me.
There are far more immediate matters with which he ought to be concerned, though, naturally, cannot be arsed.

To the 'bored/ Guest:

Best go and read the threads then, if you've so much time on your hands.
And find out for yourself just what Bulmer has and hasn't done.
Only then will you or anyone else be qualified to speak, pontificate or otherwise judge.

01 Jun 07 - 01:46 PM (#2065865)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: M.Ted

Not concerned about you so much, it's the danger you may pose to others.

01 Jun 07 - 01:53 PM (#2065869)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Ah, an invitation.
Where did I put that rocket launcher?

(Or bazooka, as someone wrote in another thread about stringed things . . . )

01 Jun 07 - 01:55 PM (#2065877)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

YES!

The collapsing f*lk clubs thread has just lurched back on topic too . . .

01 Jun 07 - 03:03 PM (#2065921)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad

"Ah, an invitation.
Where did I put that rocket launcher?

(Or bazooka, as someone wrote in another thread about stringed things . . . ) "

Not even joking, Diane.
Don't write that sort of stuff.
Sorry for teasing you a little.
I'm out of here now.

01 Jun 07 - 03:12 PM (#2065932)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Yeah?

It's OK for blokes to write any sort of threatening stuff they like but not for women to take the piss?

There are certain men around here who not only can't tell a CRUISE missile from a Greek instrument but think it's just fine to threaten women with minds because they're not allowed, but they are just because they're 'men'.

A cue for me to get outta here away from such distasteful company too.

I hope the Captain follows and I'm sorry his thread has been corrupted by such mindless shits.

01 Jun 07 - 03:40 PM (#2065950)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

Captain Birdseye, ignoring most of Dianes paranoid comments, I hope you did not take offense to our discussion. I think you understood where most of us were coming from and did not take it to the extreme that Diane and I did. I appreciate your civil discourse with us and I hope that we can actually discuss the issue now. I respect your comments.

01 Jun 07 - 04:00 PM (#2065965)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST

Personally I know little about, and am not particularly interested in Dave Bulmer. He sounds a rather unpleasant individual whose behaviour resembles that of a collector who has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum (and who found much support from some quarters). Bulmer has concentrated his activities mainly towards established revival performers who, to my mind, are quite capable of fighting their own corner and are able to employ agents and solicitors to speak up on their behalf if necessary.
I took the subject of this thread to be 'collecting' which, to me, refers to our relationship with traditional performers.
The subject of payment for the recording of traditional singers is a tricky one. In thirty odd years I have never known the subject to have come up with field singers unless we raised it ourselves. The older singers learned their songs because they enjoyed, and were interested in them. We have always found them ore than happy to pass them on to us, and it has been our opinion that to offer payment would have given offence and would have altered our relationship radically with those we have known. I have never known singers claim 'ownership' of the songs and to offer payment for their time and 'effort' seems like flying in the face of the staggering generosity we have invariably been shown. Most of the people we recorded, we got to know well, and a number of them we have regarded as close friends.
The only time the question of payment has been raised is in context of the public use that the material may be put to, albums, radio or television broadcasts etc. In these cases we have undertaken to pass on ALL money gained from such use. Where that has not been possible, because of the death of singers, or (particularly in the case of Travellers) because of our losing touch with them, we have undertaken to plough the proceeds back into the music by donating it to bodies such as the National Sound Archive or Irish Traditional Music Archive. In this way, we have not personally profited from the recordings and thus, as far as the singers are concerned, have 'kept our hands clean'.
Unfortunately, the majority of record purchasers have, by and large, preferred their folk songs sung by Martin Carthy, Peter Bellamy, June Tabor et al, rather than Harry Cox, Cecilia Costello and Jeannie Robertson. The sales of albums of such magnificent and important singers as Robert Cinnamond and John Reilly have been so pitifully small that they have not even covered the production costs, let alone made a profit. The result is that any collectors wishing to make generally available their recordings, have had to either finance their albums themselves or get record companies or institutions to foot the bill.
There is much more to be said about the morality of collecting, particularly regarding the treatment of field singers, both by the revival and by researchers, but these postings are getting to be far too bloody long so, hopefully, if people are interested, to be continued.......
Jim Carroll
PS My favourite story on payment for recording was told by collector Cairán MacMathúna when he was recording for his radio programme 'Job of Journeywork'. He had taken down some tunes from an elderly fiddle player in Kerry, after which he said, "There will be a small recording fee for this".
The old man thought for a second and said, "I'll be taking a bullock to the market tomorrow, so I should be able to pay you then".

01 Jun 07 - 04:17 PM (#2065983)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Captain Birdseye, ignoring most of Dianes paranoid comments, I hope you did not take offense to our discussion. I think you understood where most of us were coming from and did not take it to the extreme that Diane and I did. I appreciate your civil discourse with us and I hope that we can actually discuss the issue now. I respect your comments

There is bit one word to describe that. It's weasely.

Jim Carroll:

No, sorry to disagree (emphatically) but it's not 'just a few revivalists with money to employ solicitors'. Just take a look at the Mustrad site under Traditional Discography. Or look in the Bright Phoebus thread where everything, including the Grey Gatefolds are printed out. And you'll see the extent of what's been hidden.

01 Jun 07 - 04:26 PM (#2065988)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

Sorry. Captain, ignoring Diane's weasely comments, I hope you did not take offense to our discussion.

01 Jun 07 - 05:25 PM (#2066040)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

Jim Carroll,you make some very good points,however I agree with Diane,it isnt just about revivalist singers[Iam notsure if NicJones can afford to pay solicitors,Idoubt it,]in the words of PrettyBoyFloyd,some men rob you with a shotgun others with a fountain pen,last time I had anything to do with barristers,IT COST 10OO EUROS A DAY.
It is about treating people decently,not behaving in an amoral/immoral way.
you yourself criticised PeterKennedy for his neglect of Nealy Boyle.PeterKennedy for all his failings at least made his material available.if you go to the thread Diane mentioned you will see a lot of material collected from tradional singers that is being kept out of the public domain,This hoarding/ collecting benefits nobody.
I am sure if the source singers who had this material collected from them were asked,they would not be happy with the situation ,neither would the original collectors.

01 Jun 07 - 05:42 PM (#2066049)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

jimcarroll,
to makeiteasy ,look at Diane Easbys POST 11 MAY07 5 40AM,thread is[bright phoebus waterson /bulmer]
here are just a few of the tradional recordings that are in the leader catalogue Charlie Wills,Coleman country traditional society,COPPER FAMILY,Seamus Ennis etc

01 Jun 07 - 05:48 PM (#2066054)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

Jim,29 to my reckoning, two of Walter Pardon,now you knew Walter well ,do you think hwe would have been happy with two of his recordings being hidden away.Im sure the answer is no.

01 Jun 07 - 08:23 PM (#2066144)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,puzzled.

Been looking at the numerous threads about Dave Bulmer/ Neil Sharpley/ Celtic Music/ etc, seems the main comlaint is that Mr Bulmer will not release music he has in his possesion,if this is so how does he make a living.
Exactly what is Hookstone Works, Harrogate, is it a factory, record company, or what. Several of the different companies mentioned in these threads have more than one Bulmer involved, what do these companies trade in, I find it hard to believe that the releases Music by Mail offer provide enough income.
Neil Sharpley still seems to be offering legal services in Louth despite having been struck off as a solicitor, and relieved of his office of coroner.
Most of the offshoot companies associated with Celtic Music seem to have a box number postal address in Pawnshop Passage, Louth, must be Sharpley.
Just curious to know.

01 Jun 07 - 08:30 PM (#2066151)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: TheSnail

On another thread Diane Easby said -
It's OK for blokes to write any sort of threatening stuff they like but not for women to take the piss?

On this thread she said -
Maybe I'll just kick you down the Royal Oak steps (singing Tom Paine's Bones as I do it.)

Compare and contrast, as they say.

I think perhaps I'd better warn Vic and Tina to expect trouble.

01 Jun 07 - 08:31 PM (#2066152)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: TheSnail

B*&%$£*r. Wrong thread.

01 Jun 07 - 08:38 PM (#2066160)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,meself

This just keeps more and more delightful ... !

01 Jun 07 - 09:02 PM (#2066179)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Steve Shaw

I am new around here. Really, I like to debate issues. I note that a large number of people, most of whom choose to hide behind "Guest" or other pseudonyms, and yes, you ARE hiding so NO bloody excuses please, obtain their recreation by attacking Diane rather than debating issues. This thread is positively littered with pools of testosterone shed by chaps who find it far easier to go into attack-dog mode than to actually exercise their brains for a change on the issue to hand. Diane is on the same side as me and, ostensibly, as most of the contributors to this thread. If Mr Bulmer is following this he must be having a damn good laugh. Divided we fall. Ditch the stupid big egos, chaps, and tell us instead where you really stand with regard to Mr Bulmer, Nic Jones and the rest. I have and Diane assuredly has. Do you or don't you want to hear Ten Thousand Miles on a real CD which is earning money for Mr Jones? I've now asked this three times, and since I first asked it I've seen a ton of gratuitous attacks on an ardent, vibrant and passionate woman but not a single response to my question in the affirmative. Maybe y'all think the question is far less relevant and certainly far less entertaining than having a go at Diane. Pathetic, guys. Wrong target.

01 Jun 07 - 09:42 PM (#2066207)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad

Well now: I am new around here and use a name, other than my own but most certainly am not hiding. I tried to assist your friend and she took a swing at me. She has also accused me of being sexist, among other things, which absolutely befuddles me.
Regardless of whether your friend is right or wrong and whether the others were; she seriously lost it in her later submissions.
If there is some issue that you wish to debate then please, go ahead but to get into a mudslinging match as you seem to have chosen, will accomplish nothing.

01 Jun 07 - 09:47 PM (#2066210)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Big Mick

First off, Steve, welcome. Glad you are here.

As I said to Diane, I agree with much of what she is saying. I just don't understand the rhetoric and the attitude. She has demonstrated an ability to talk down to people. She is obviously a very knowledgeable folkie. But the attitude just gets to me. No need for it.

Mick

01 Jun 07 - 10:12 PM (#2066213)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad

Oh right: Welcome Steve.

Meself's really having a time to himself. (May I suggest "A rock and a Hard Place", Irish Dependants. For your missus.)

01 Jun 07 - 10:44 PM (#2066227)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,.gargoyle

Mr. Greenhouse -

Don't get me wrong - (you are a good friend) however, the "service" of professional (and fringe) distributors is dead.....(while I would mark the year 2000....history will probably record 2006-07)

You list some truly CLASSIC Folk under your distribution....brillant artists with some recordings I have purchased (AND yours has been a VALUABLE contribution to the continuance of American Folk) however, FTP, P2P, .... or my preference ....direct artist interface...all profits to the artist...Do-It-Yourself....DIY ... have made artists aware that "getting a label" means that they are only another "slave to the man."

New technology - means that "the slaves have been set free."

Sincerly,

Gargoyle

For total - (real, bootleg, bogus,) My "collection" now holds perhaps, 92% (some un-released) Rodgers....and about 85% of Ives....My cost....about $15.00 US....because 45's sold for a buck once-upon-a-time.

01 Jun 07 - 10:49 PM (#2066229)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,meself

(Jim: you're a sick man).

01 Jun 07 - 11:09 PM (#2066241)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,.gargoyle

Folks - PLEASE stick a stamp on a Five Fin and send it off to Max....

I am a cheap "son O A Branch" but...it does require CAMSCO and and sponsors to have kept this dialogue alive for over a decade (a miracle in web-years)

Somewhere, there used to be, an address in Pennsylvania to get money to Max....can't find it tonight.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Does Max still have any interest in MC - or have the clones taken full control?

01 Jun 07 - 11:15 PM (#2066254)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad

Not at all. listen to the song. It's a good one!
Ignore this guys. I think my message to Meself was misunderstood.

01 Jun 07 - 11:41 PM (#2066269)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Thanks, Steve. (Air, breath, fresh . . .)
But you may be wasting your time, these geezers don't appear to know or care about Nic Jones or 10,000 Miles.
They're fully absorbed (OK, it doesn't take much) in Sport For The Boys and How To Make Money.
And posting offensive trivialities like Diane, be mine and inquiring whether I have a husband (as if such a person would have the same name as me . . . )
And feigning ignorance when I suggest a time change (no, you don't do it with a spanner).
And running with the pack without a clue how to think for themselves.
It's 0430, I'm up, awake and reading tunes. I suppose they think I should be washing the kitchen floor.
Sod off, little boys.

01 Jun 07 - 11:48 PM (#2066274)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Celtaddict

While I suppose it is thread drift, Gargoyle makes an important point: do support Max and Mudcat. He puts a lot into keeping this forum afloat! Max has a PayPal account and when I sent him a PM he sent me a land mail address for contributions, and that address is in the Quick Link "Contact Us."
This would not be a bad idea to list both these contacts as a Quick Link: Support for Mudcat. (What do you think, Max or Clone?)
Now, back to what I thought was the original idea of this thread. While we are not likely to change past history and obviously there are many here who know more than I about specifics of the Bulmer/CM business which seems to have been thoroughly addressed on more than one thread, I would be interested in hearing more about what may be a sound approach to collecting now. (I do harbor the notion that not all the old songs have yet been found.) Jim Carroll (guest, 1 June, 4 p.m.) described his view and practices. What about other collectors, sources, or those who are giving it thought? What do you think is an appropriate and moral approach to collecting traditional songs from living sources?

01 Jun 07 - 11:51 PM (#2066276)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad

"Diane, be mine" was an offer of friendship on "Myspace". The offer still stands.

01 Jun 07 - 11:59 PM (#2066278)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: katlaughing

Click here to donate money to the Mudcat via its owner, Max.

02 Jun 07 - 04:17 AM (#2066348)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST

Diane, Cap'n
Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Bulmer, I am suggesting that he is just one of several people whose behaviour hasn't helped traditional music, and that by concentrating on him, you are missing the point. He is by no means the worst.
As I understand it, he bought the Leader catalogue when the firm went bust and is now refusing to re-release them. Not helpful, I agree, but I wonder how many people are out there clamouring to buy albums of Walter Pardon, Cecilia Costello, George Dunne or Charlie Wills. I have some idea of how many people bought them first time round and believe that maybe...... if they were bought in greater numbers maybe the following for folk song would be far healthier than it is now.
As shoddy as Bulmer's behaviour is towards Nic Jones, I'm afraid it comes fairly low down (if at all) on my list of priorities.
The Cap'n wrote:
"Peter Kennedy for all his failings at least made his material available if you".
Once again you appear to be praising Peter Kennedy with faint damns! Kennedy's behaviour left a lasting scar on traditional music and it set the tone for what followed.
If any discussion is to take place on the revival's attitude to our source singers, let it be a comprehensive one; perhaps it might include a look at our own attitude to them and whether WE got it right.
Jim Carroll
Cap'n, sorry I have no idea what I wrote about Neilie Boyle and Peter Kennedy, it must have been extremely profound as I know nothing whatever on the subject now!

02 Jun 07 - 04:43 AM (#2066355)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,Not too puzzled

In response to "puzzled" in an earlier posting I perhaps can throw some enlightenment to the Bulmer confusion.

North Works, Hookstone Park, Harrogate is a 4(?) storey building that is home to several Bulmer enterprises.    CM Records, Music By Mail, PR Records, Loyalware etc each appear to have their HQ's here.    Each company lists its Registered Office with an accountancy firm called Weaver Wroot in Pawnshop Passage, Mercer Row, Louth.    Folk Heritage Records also appears to be HQ'd at North Works.

These companies appear to be small in the overall scheme of things and in the main accounting seems to be filed either late or with claimed small company reporting requirements.    In other words it is almost impossible to assess any profitability or otherwise.       As "puzzled" suggests it is difficult to imagine Music By Mail as being a significant income stream to its Director/Shareholders - but who knows?

Louth appears to be the hub of the Sharpley empire.    Mr Sharpley was busted in 2001 by the Law Society for several financial "indiscretions" against his clients, and he later saw fit to do the decent thing and resign as Coroner - what else could the poor chap do.

At last referencing, Mr Sharpley was listed as having Direcor/Co.Secretary status for in excess of 10 companies!!!

"What a tangled web.................."

02 Jun 07 - 04:44 AM (#2066356)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

Jim I didnt intend to praise Peter Kennedy,Other than acknowledge ,I have found his collections useful.
Iwould have thought it inportant when collecting,to establish a trust between collector and source.
Jim ,you collected from Walter Pardon,how do you think Walter would have felt,if he knew his singing and sings were not going to see the light of day,.
this is where love of the music must come above commercial considerations,number one priority is to break even[this could be an explanation for Peter Kennedys[shoddy covers etc][Idont excuse his awful dubbing on],Most of us revival singers are not rich,and made decisions to play for love of the music not commercial income,most of us just get by.
in the leader catalogue 29 out of 107,are source singers/musicians.
AS Brian Peters said the cost of burning cds is coming down,black and white laser printers are reasonably cheap.
I am sorry Jim but I cant think of anyone who is worse than Dave
Bulmer,please tell us who they are,meanwhile Celtic music need to be focussed on and pressurised into doing the decent thing[particuarly in my opinion to NicJones]

02 Jun 07 - 06:02 AM (#2066390)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Dave the Gnome

Can we just agree to boycot ANYTHING to do with Messers Bulmer and Sharpley until the back catalogue in question is released and the artists in question, particulary Nic, get their share? Is it not that easy? I would suggest that Dick (G) and Camsco Music can make a real difference here if we could do it. How about it Dick?

I know it will affect all who are making money out of Celtic Music (I would not buy anything from anyone describing folk as Celtic anyway!) but surely even the artists who are getting their royalties would be happy to support a fellow artist fallen on hard times? If not, are they worth supporting anyway?

Maybe, after all the huffing and puffing, if we can help someone, it will make it all worthwhile.

Cheers

Dave

02 Jun 07 - 08:49 AM (#2066451)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

I agree, Dave

02 Jun 07 - 09:52 AM (#2066478)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Big Mick

I'm in, Dave, but it's unfair to ask Dick Greenhaus to participate. Usually these small vendors are hanging on by their fingernails. But if we just don't buy the stuff, it is the same anyway.

All the best,

Mick

02 Jun 07 - 09:53 AM (#2066480)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST

Cap'n,
Walter's singing did see the light of day - problem is, not many people bought it - result - Bill Leader went bust and the records fell into the hands of Dave Bulmer - whence the blame?
Who is worse than Dave Bulmer - in my book a shark (or pirahna) is a shark (or pirhana) and if you get bitten you don't stop to count the teeth of each individual shark (or pirhana).
You appear to be assessing Kennedy's behaviour on the basis of how useful his collection is to you - not much morality there.
What disturbs me about this whole topic is it seems to be driven by how Bulmer has behaved towards revival singers, ignoring the behavior of others whose actions have been ten times worse towards source singers.
Do you think there is a queue of people waiting to get hold of Walter Pardon, Charlie Wills et al's albums, or is it just a case of 'pity the downtrodden folkie'?
What would Walter think? He was modest enough not to have let it concern him too much - he had no great notions of his own importance.
Jim Carroll

02 Jun 07 - 01:05 PM (#2066577)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

no jim ,iaid Ifound his collections useful,I bought themor were given them aspresents before I knew anything about Peter Kennedy.

02 Jun 07 - 01:11 PM (#2066579)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,Ralphie

Hi Jim.
As this thread is about ethics (in one way or another),can I throw my two pennorth in?
I know nothing about the Kennedy situation apart from rumours, so I'll not speak of that.
But, how about this for a solution to the CM problem.
It's quite obvious the Dave Bulmer couldn't possibly re-issue all 100 plus titles that he owns. Nobody could.
But there are two distinct strands to his collection.
Firstly the Trad (ie source) LPs. Normally a grey gatefold sleeve with extensive notes contained within.
Obviously not potentially huge sellers, but, look, John Howson at Veteran records in Stowmarket has been quietly producing a wonderful collection of cassettes, and now CDs of source singers/musicians for years, Also Tony Engle and Reg Hall at Topic produced Voice of the people a couple of years ago.
Now if Dave B would sell the dozen or so "Grey" albums (Call it the "Lost Leader Tradition" or somesuch) I'm sure that whoever bought it would do the correct deal with the families/estates involved and also cut Mr B in on the deal as a thanks for looking after the archive all these years.
He wouldn't get much obviously, we're not looking Robbie Williams figures here, but it must be better than the £zero that he's getting now!

As for the revival singers, its up to them to strike whatever deal they can. And the ones I've spoken to, would be only to happy to do so. Tony Rose would have loved to have done so, too late now sadly.

But the problem is that Dave won't talk.

And try as I can, I can't think of any good reason why.
If you are a business man, surely you want to sell something. Otherwise what is the point?

At the moment Dave Bulmer is paying good money for storage space to keep all his stuff, and getting little income?? Makes no sense to me.

Obviously deals would have to struck with people like the Percy Grainger estate for the Joseph Taylor recordings, but, if nobody does anything, then we live in this impasse, and a whole raft of recordings will be lost to the world.

Hope this helps.

All the best Ralph

02 Jun 07 - 01:17 PM (#2066581)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,Ralphie

PS.
The other company that might be interested in the grey albums is Musical Traditions.
Have just taken my copy of the Scan Tester book out to look at,
150 pages of text music, history, and wonderful photos.
It can be done. even though it must have cost quite a bit to produce.

02 Jun 07 - 01:27 PM (#2066586)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Rusty Dobro

"As I said to Diane, I agree with much of what she is saying. I just don't understand the rhetoric and the attitude. She has demonstrated an ability to talk down to people. She is obviously a very knowledgeable folkie. But the attitude just gets to me. No need for it."

Big Mick got it just right. I have enjoyed/been provoked by/learnt from this thread, and after being worked over by the electronic equivalent of a loaded billiard cue in a dark alleyway had no intention of ever contributing to it again, but the sheer scale of Ms Easby's ability to grasp the wrong end of the stick, and then use it as a weapon to beat anyone she perceives as having a different view to her, has been a real eye-opener to me. (And no, I'm not referring to the whole Bulmer question, on which I sense most of us, including me, are in agreement with her.)

But then, since I'm 'offensive' and a 'scumbag' I should be unworthy of her attention. From now on I will be. Bye Diane, enjoy your life.

02 Jun 07 - 01:37 PM (#2066595)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad

Nor 200

02 Jun 07 - 02:06 PM (#2066606)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

jim carroll,thereis adifference between PeterKennedy ,and Dave Bulmer,Peter,is dead.Dave Bulmer is not and may be open to influence.,and change.
I think there are other differences,but that is just My opinion.
what is important now is the morality of people, still collecting or in possession of other peoples collections.

02 Jun 07 - 02:22 PM (#2066614)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

As I said at 11.41 (which is going on for 5 in the morning here) in the course of pointing out that I wasn't and didn't intend to be engaged in house cleaning but was reading a few tunes, the Oxidised Non-Instrument can sod off too.

I was deeply incensed by his (yeah, has to be a him) intensely personal, trivialising shit but decided to ask the Big Mick person how it was he was justifying having a go at me for the way in which I counter the sexist abuse and trivialisation yet was failing to condemn the idiots who spout it in the first place. I said:

I write to topic and, sadly, know the facts of the issue. I'm considerably more impressed by those blokes who cringe at the arrogant gits who don't know what they're talking about, and decide to go for me instead. The issue is far too important to any of us closely involved to have any time for the pompous, testosterone-fuelled (thanks Steve) throwbacks.

Mick mentioned that he thought I was 'unfair' to Mr Olesko, at which I said:

But that's exactly what I mean, he went completely off-topic to talk about ME in a derogatory way instead of what to do about the issues under discussion. When Steve or Dick argue against the, at best ambivalent at worst weasly stance on the villains and even defend me (thanks chaps), they at least get a reply that takes them seriously. All I get is trivialised crap because it is beyond their comprehension that a woman could have anything to contribute. That's why I have to shout to make myself heard. 'Twould be better if I didn't need to, I agree. But I do have to. I suppose they don't even know they're doing it. Ingrained superiority, or as Steve put it, testosterone-fuelled baying.

Don't know yet what he thinks about that.

As it goes, I have known Bill Leader since the late 1960s, was there through his recordings and knew many of the artists, some of whom still talk to me (when not spitting feathers at the situation). I really don't give a toss what many of you (especially 'over there') think of me cos you don't know me anyway. But don't any of you dare diminish what the artists are going through and, as yet, getting nowhere.

And DON'T call me a 'f*lkie. My music extends way beyond that narrow ghetto and I have no wish to be lumped in with (some of) you lot. Thank you.

02 Jun 07 - 05:09 PM (#2066724)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Dave the Gnome

Diane, don''t lead with the chin.

And DON'T call me a 'f*lkie.

You ae a f*lkie

Whtever one of them may be. How about that.

I have called you one. I missed out the bold type. What happens now?

:D

02 Jun 07 - 05:09 PM (#2066726)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

yes Diane.I too knew Bill Leader[probably not as well as you],,Idid my first recording with him,the mastertapes were later destroyed in a fire[so Bulmer doesnt own this one].I can only say he was a pleasure to work with and a real gentleman.
I am in total agreement about dimiminishing what the artists are going through[JimCarroll please note].people are people whether they are revivalists or traditional singer.
Diane is in my opinion,someone who is concerned about these injustices,and needs all of our support,united we stand, and in union we may acheive something.

02 Jun 07 - 06:49 PM (#2066768)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Malcolm Douglas

There seems to be no hope that this thread will ever lurch back on course for more than a few minutes at a time, so I'll restrict myself here to comment on a single point that Ralph made a little earlier.

So far as the Grainger material is concerned, 'Celtic Music' owns the rights in the 'new' masters prepared by Bill Leader, not in the original wax cylinder recordings, which are now, I think, the property of the Grainger Museum in Australia. There are copies at the VWML and in the late Peter Kennedy's archive; probably others elsewhere. Peter used to sell cassette and CDR copies, though I don't know whether, strictly, he had the legal right to do so.

It may well be that Dave Bulmer couldn't re-issue that material (even if he wanted to, which seems unlikely) without negotiating a new license agreement with the copyright holders. Equally, there is no obvious reason why new, digitally optimised masters cannot be made from copies of the original cylinders (or even from the cylinders themselves if they are still playable), provided the appropriate permissions are obtained. 'Celtic Music' would have no rights, moral or legal, over such.

02 Jun 07 - 07:00 PM (#2066771)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Steve Shaw

You are so right, Captain Birdseye. There is nothing that Dave Bulmer would get more amusement from than seeing people who basically agree with each other about what a true git he is squabbling over the ways in which we talk to each other about him. Diane fights the bloody good fight, fellers. Slack must be cut and the testosterone pools in the trouser turn-ups must be mopped up. Diane is passionate, feisty and a pain in the butt but all power to her bloody elbow say I! :-)

02 Jun 07 - 07:06 PM (#2066773)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: johnadams

It may well be that Dave Bulmer couldn't re-issue that material (even if he wanted to, which seems unlikely) without negotiating a new license agreement with the copyright holders. (Malcolm)

...... and that goes for a large percentage of the traditional content of the Leader catalogue. The source tapes are owned by people like Roy Palmer and Janet Kerr, etc. That's why Rod Stradling was able to do a new album of George Dunn on the Musical Traditions label. Other re-issues could be done be more up to date research notes etc.

Probably the only stuff we're being denied is the revival albums which is a shame but not quite such a catastrophe as if the traditional stuff were locked up.

If there really IS a market for all the traditional stuff then we'll see it reflected in Rod Stradling's and John Howson's recent sales figures. Then they'll be confident about putting out more.

The morality of the finances is not really an issue - if the sales are there and the money earned then people like Rod and John will do the right thing, no question.

J

02 Jun 07 - 08:27 PM (#2066821)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Steve Shaw

If the sales are there and the money earned would Mr Bulmer ever do the right thing? Just think. Release of the early Nic Jones albums would go down a storm. Who'd like to estimate how many copies would be sold! Of course, I'm talking about ~real~ CDs, and there would need to be good publicity, but why wouldn't there be? Mike Harding and even Radio Three would joyfully play the buggers to death and Froots and the rest (and definitely NOT "...and the rest") would eulogise. There would be no losers, not Mr B, Nic or all the rest of us. Clearly, there's something about psychology I haven't quite cottoned on to as yet...

02 Jun 07 - 08:54 PM (#2066830)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: dick greenhaus

Dave (and others)-
Re CAMSCO co-operation.

Co-operation in what? I've already offered to give royalties (out of my pocket) to any artists who are entitled to same and are not getting them from Celtic Music (nobody's asked as yet). My only reason for carrying CM releases is simply that they're good music that's otherwise unobtainable.
   All of the Bulmer-haters seem to agree that CM has the rights to these recordings, regardless of how fervently anyone would wish otherwise. Should I also refuse to carry recordings of material collected by, say, Lomax, who cheated Leadbelly unmercifully? Or Green Linnet recordings, since they've been accused of stiffing recording artists? Or Peter Kennedy's Folktrax series, because Kennedy's actions were apparently less than ethical? Or recordings by Rounder, who are "sitting on" a large number of out-of-print CDs? I'm not responsible for someone else's ethics and business sense, or lack of same.
    Look, my interest is making good folk music available. I won't carry illegally pirated recordings. The amount of money I have made, am making or can make from the sale of CM's recordings is trivial. Outside of some recorded by The Kipper Family or Sid Kipper himself, I doubt that I've sold more than fifteen in toto (that would come to a fat $32.75 US in royalties, assuming that the various artists were owed royalties for these CDs.)
   I fail to see how refusing to carry CM's releases would do anyone a damn bit of good.

02 Jun 07 - 09:03 PM (#2066833)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Steve Shaw

It's a bit like buying Israeli new spuds. You don't know whether the chap who grew them is getting anything out of the knock-down amount you're paying, or whether the money's going to some Palestinian-basher. Being an ethical buyer or an ethical middle-man is very tough these days. Follow your well-informed conscience and don't sell any Bulmer CD-Rs!

02 Jun 07 - 09:48 PM (#2066851)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker

Please.. [ok.. more frustrated plea..] for f@cks sake !!!???

please.. for the benefit of new entrants into this long running tagic saga.

PLEASE can you most longly entrenched individual combatants

just keep simply to the point..

its hard anough work
just trying to read all the way through these threads
to get a clearer idea of whats wrong and how it could be made beter

without all this ego fueled one upmanship clever clogs
middle class over educated drivel
about herrings and f@ck knows what else clouding the main issues..

PLEASE just stick to the main points for the sake
of effective reasonable communictive discourse.

sorry.. didn't get served in time for last orders so i'm relatively sober this weekend.........

thank you mates..

02 Jun 07 - 10:18 PM (#2066861)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,N. Spencer

Can I add my voice to those of Diane, Steve, Captain etc? I think this goes way beyond testosterone fuelled cut 'n' thrust of quasi-intellectual debate: this is about real, living people and the music they've made. No wonder people get passionate. It's no good coming over the big fake dad and pretending that because a similar thing may have also happened 50 years ago there's nothing we can do about it and we all should stop whingeing. Additionally this whole Bulmer thing is doubly ridiculous in an era where albums can be reissued very cheaply via MP3 - cutting out the manufacturing and distribution costs that might arguably make CD reissues prohibitive. There are even download sites like Woven Wheat Whispers that specialise in folk and would do most of the work for Mr B! And they pride themselves on having an MCPS license and doing things the honourable way, in terms of recompensing the artist. In the 21st century, there's really no longer any excuse...

Best Wishes,

Nigel

02 Jun 07 - 11:43 PM (#2066914)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

" Mick mentioned that he thought I was 'unfair' to Mr Olesko, at which I said:
But that's exactly what I mean, he went completely off-topic to talk about ME in a derogatory way instead of what to do about the issues under discussion."

Excuse me, but I never talked about you in a derogatory way until you called me a scumbag, and even then I restrained myself. IF you think that defending myself from your unfounded remarks about me, then you are wrong again. If you think because I take a questioning attitude toward your remarks my attitude toward you was "testosterone fueled", then you hav an odd way of looking at people.

You aren't perfect, as we have seen in this thread. You take a position and other people question it, and you attack. That is not a passion to be proud of. Yes, there are real people involved, but you did not make your case and give those of us who want to find out more no reason to do so.

02 Jun 07 - 11:52 PM (#2066919)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,pfr

aaarrgghh !!!!??

03 Jun 07 - 01:24 AM (#2066950)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: katlaughing

All I get is trivialised crap because it is beyond their comprehension that a woman could have anything to contribute.

Nothing could be farther from the truth regarding most of the male members of the Mudcat. Of course, if you dish it out but can't take it, you will get a spirited response, then you could twist it into some kind of generalised condemnation, ala above, and you would be wrong.

kat

03 Jun 07 - 03:46 AM (#2066998)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Mr Olesko

May I remind you and anyone else that you entered this thread with an entirely off-topic, trivialising declaration from nowhere that you intended to write my biography (and this was why I called you a scumbag) and some slimy creep called M.Ted offered to contribute amusing 'aneccdotes', to which you replied: 'My lawyer will call your lawyer', at which point Joe Offer closed the thread.

Then it mysteriously re-opened and you described yourself as a 'old dinosaur'. You said (as your first vaguely on-topic contribution):

This is a complicated subject. A contract is a contract, and while 'moral' issues may be present, there are also 'ethical' questions. I'm not defending Bulmer, everything I have read about him makes him sound slimey. Still, I think there are other sides to the issue.

Steve Shaw said:

Yes indeed, there are other sides to the issue all right. Here's one of them. One of the very finest singers in the English or any other tradition made some sublime albums. The rights to those recordings passed to a bloke who will not allow this wonderful man to make a single penny from them, in spite of the fact that he came upon very hard times and was unable to perform ever again. Please do not bore me with you weasel, moral, ethical or contractual issues.

And I said:

The 'other side of the issue' is exactly as described by Steve Shaw above. Although not obliged in law to do anything at all, Bulmer's publishing company could perform a humanitarian function not only for the artists but a lucrative one for himself as well as them by selling the rights back. Please do not bore me either with attempts to justify why he should not.

After which Mr O treated Steve Shaw with polite contempt and me only with contempt. He says that I 'take a position' and attack when other people question it. Bollocks. I describe how it is, I have no need to manufacture positions. Whereas you and your testosterone-fuelled cohorts including the ridiculously-named Rusty Dobro simply fling in misinformed, usually off-topic insults. You don't address the topic because you can not.

Hope this helps Katlaughing who is obviously far too busy getting to know all the male members of Mudcat to address a serious issue about real people herself.

03 Jun 07 - 04:08 AM (#2067010)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,Ralphie

Happy Sunday everybody.
Just a few points.
Interestingly, Joe Offer has closed the Phoebus thread. I wonder who it was that asked him to do that?
Hardly surprising I suppose. This whole sorry saga must make strange reading to our friends across the pond. And the vitriol released in that thread (inc me, Mea Culpa) Has obfuscated the very deep feelings felt by a lot of us Brits over this affair.
Malcolm. (and John Adams hi!)
Thanks for your input, It's really good to know that the rights to some of the rarest recordings remain safe.

It would be wonderful if this collection of recordings could be made available.

Messrs Howson, Hall, Stradling, Engle.
I would be happy to help in the process.

Mr Greenhaus.

From what I know, you have been absolutely clear about your dealings "With the Trade"
Of course, you are running a business, no problem.
You deal with whoever approaches you, in your own way.
But, as has been stated many times, this isn't about money.
I know that you have been squeaky clean in your dealings with Julia Jones (Mollie Music). And I salute you for that.
It's wonderful that these compilations of Nics work are available in the US.
But, what a shame that the original recordings of the first 4 albums are being sneakily put out, (a sort of, meet you in the car park, and I'll slip you a copy, sort of way)
I just find it very sad.
Everbody else, Thanks for your input, but lets just stay with the facts, and stop sniping at each other.
Oxygen of Publicity
Great phrase, but it can turn round and bite you, if you're not careful.
Joe can close as many threads as he likes, but, sadly this topic (sic) won't go away, (I really wish it would)
Have a nice day

Ralph

03 Jun 07 - 07:23 AM (#2067081)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

Thanks Malcolm Douglas and John Adams, for your posts it clarifies the situation.
I think revivalist material is equally important as source material.
Roots are important,but so is development of material[hence the interest particuarly in Nic Jones].

03 Jun 07 - 07:47 AM (#2067091)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: johnadams

I agree Dick. The recordings of today are tomorrow's resource. As tradition carriers it's important that we just keep bashing on. In the long run, the stuff will not be lost as it's spread all over the world on vinyl and culturally, it's the content that's important. The accessibility and morality things are a vital but separate issue.

In the short term, some people not a million miles from me have discussed re-recording their albums. Others have apparently already done it.

Where this is not feasible (for a variety of reasons including death!), that's where the focus of this struggle should lie.

J

03 Jun 07 - 09:42 AM (#2067160)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,meself

"This whole sorry saga must make strange reading to our friends across the pond."

"Strange" would be an extremely mild adjective to describe the impression that this and the related threads give of the English folk scene. I'm not saying that any of you should care, of course ...

03 Jun 07 - 10:06 AM (#2067172)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

"May I remind you and anyone else that you entered this thread with an entirely off-topic, trivialising declaration from nowhere that you intended to write my biography "

Ms. Easby - May I remind you that my point was not off-topic as the original post discusses the act of a collector acknowledging their sources with some sort of compensation.

While it may have been beyond your comprehension to understand that I was making an analogy, that is exactly what I was trying to illustrate. Instead, for some odd reason you felt that I was actually writing a book and somehow that meant it would be an attack on you. All readers to this thread seem to have understood that, except you.

I have addressed the topic several times, and you keep sidetracking it with insults and dismissals. Your lack of ability to connect with others and rude behavior is the source of my contempt. People like you serve as roadblocks and have no effect in making change in the world. You have done your own cause a great disservice.

I am still waiting for you to answer my earlier questions, and please do tell me to do research and starting reading other threads. If you cannot summarize your thoughts in a simple post, then the issue is more complicated - as I originally stated.

03 Jun 07 - 10:11 AM (#2067177)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,meself

(I believe that should read: " ... and please do NOT tell me ... " - You're welcome!).

03 Jun 07 - 10:23 AM (#2067190)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jeri

(Oddly enough, I wrote this right after Ralphie's post and before Ron's.)

Ralphie, based on magazines and websites I've read, I've noticed there's a BIG difference between the US and the UK when it comes to how much nastiness is acceptable. There are some around here who are able to hit threads often and at length, until the thread becomes focused on them. There are some here who enjoy fighting on a personal level enough so they don't care if they disdainfully ignore the topic or look like assholes to others. I suspect a thread where that happens just won't last long. Mudcat (IMO) was meant to be a place for people to freely discuss things, and NOT have to constantly worry about getting attacked. It may be what you're used to, but I don't believe it's right, and I don't believe it's what the majority here want.

Dick, as far as I can understand, wants to make the recordings available to those who want them. He's tried everything in his power to make sure the musicians aren't getting screwed. I believe he's written to most, and most (if not all) haven't replied.

On the other hand, the subject of Bulmer's release of recordings is such a sore subject with some that perhaps they don't want to deal with it at all, to receive a possibly small amount of royalties from one distributor. Additionally, they would then be in the position of taking money from someone who wasn't responsible for paying it to them and letting the truly responsible party get out of his obligation.

In my opinion, the primary reason for all of this is that many feel that these guys have screwed enough people for long enough that there is no possible way for them to 'make nice' and stay in the business. If they did everything right (like THAT might happen), a significant number of people would still not want to do business with them. I suspect a boycott wouldn't work though, as enough people don't know what's happened or don't care.

I don't know what the best solution to this might be, or even if there IS one. Of course, no one else does either, or these threads would be so ubiquitous.

03 Jun 07 - 10:49 AM (#2067214)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Mr Olesko

I don't have a 'cause'. I'm in business to help artists trapped in a tragic and unfair impasse if I can, some of whom are personal friends, one of whom actually asked me to do what I could and gave me permission to speak on his behalf.

Steve Shaw summarised 'the other side to the issue' as succinctly as I have ever heard it. Let that suffice and cut the weasly words.

And if on another occasion you feel obliged to drag someone's name into your bizarre attempts at justification of the indefensible, don't let it be mine. Your jokey-blokey mates had a field day of testosterone-fuelled (I do like that expression though it wasn't mine) off-topic, sexist, denigrating boys' talk which diverted and damaged what some of us are trying to achieve.

Ah, and I've remembered now. You were the one who, when Chris Conder was announcing the world exclusive first play of Bellowhead on Cool As Folk, you came on bleating that you'd played Bellow a few times.

Ahem.

Bellow = Spiers&Boden duo 2nd album.
Bellowhead = later 11-member band.

Is this the standard of accuracy your radio show listeners are accustomed to?

03 Jun 07 - 10:52 AM (#2067216)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Jeri said:

I believe he's written to most, and most (if not all) haven't replied.

Good grief, and why do you think that is?

03 Jun 07 - 11:14 AM (#2067237)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: katlaughing

LMAO...the only way she can "make her case" is to slag off at the rest of us. Won't do much for her cause, imo.

I've been here for ten years, if I don't know the fellahs by now, they ain't worth knowing. Obviously you aren't.

03 Jun 07 - 11:25 AM (#2067252)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jeri

Diane, you missed, or didn't understand, the next paragraph:"... the subject of Bulmer's release of recordings is such a sore subject with some that perhaps they don't want to deal with it at all, to receive a possibly small amount of royalties from one distributor. Additionally, they would then be in the position of taking money from someone who wasn't responsible for paying it to them and letting the truly responsible party get out of his obligation.

03 Jun 07 - 11:54 AM (#2067285)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Steve Shaw

Well, as I type this kat has made three contributions to the thread, none of which makes any sort of case for anything remotely to do with the thread. I wonder what she thinks of Mr Bulmer/the morality of collecting. Maybe one day I'll find out. End of muse.

03 Jun 07 - 12:03 PM (#2067290)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Dave Earl

Steve

We have one Countess/Diane with her way of going about things.

Don't, please go down that road yourself.

Kat responded to an unnecessary swipe by DE and your reaction to that is in just what we have come to expect from she who was formerly known as Countess.

Dave

03 Jun 07 - 01:17 PM (#2067340)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

katlaughing:

Are you trying to tell us there's something about you and Mr Bulmer we don't know?
Phew, there's a relief.
The appalling sidekick Mr George 'Tyke' Clarke (recently disappeared) was trying to palm him off on me the other day.
You're welcome.
Oh, and I really must apologise for only being here for 4 years.
We in the UK are just so technophobic.
And suspicious of some of the very peculiar men (and not just men) with very creepy attitudes crawling around here.
Even if it is the internet.
As I said earlier to the extremely peculiar Mr Olesko, I don't have a 'case'.
There are people, many of whom I know, that I want to help.
You don't care? Sod off then and leave it to those who do.

03 Jun 07 - 01:46 PM (#2067368)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Steve Shaw

My reaction is, as ever, to try to elicit responses apropos of Mr Bulmer and sympathy for Nic Jones. At least I have something to say, as does Diane. That is what discussion forums are about and that is the path I take, tho' occasionally robustly. Now YOUR point Mr Cap is...?

03 Jun 07 - 02:02 PM (#2067388)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,meself

Steve: I believe Cap's point is to urge you not to do exactly what you seem to be both doing and, at the same time, criticizing - that is, getting sidetracked from the core discussion to deal with what you feel are irrelevant personal remarks.

That the sum of my point.

03 Jun 07 - 03:19 PM (#2067456)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

"And if on another occasion you feel obliged to drag someone's name into your bizarre attempts at justification of the indefensible, don't let it be mine. Your jokey-blokey mates had a field day of testosterone-fuelled (I do like that expression though it wasn't mine) off-topic, sexist, denigrating boys' talk which diverted and damaged what some of us are trying to achieve."

Your paranoia speaks for itself. There was no "bizarre" attempt on my part to "drag" your name into anything. If you feel that "off-topic", "sexist" and "denigrating boys talk" was not necessary, why did you choose to make fun of Dick Greenhouse's name, call me (and others) scumbags, and denigrate everyone who so much as questions your statements. You may think you are the royal highness, but you've revealed yourself to be a royal pain in the ass who resorts to gutter tactics when they realize they can't discuss something intelligently.

Sod off yourself lady.

"As I said earlier to the extremely peculiar Mr Olesko, I don't have a 'case'."

I'm not sure why you are saying you don't have a case, and I am not sure why you have to resort to more name calling. I did not do that to you.

Diane, all of your spin doctoring and remarks are available for all to see. You can't hide from yourself. My remarks are also out in the open. You can say what you will, but I think most normal people will judge it accordingly.

Also, I think you have me confused with someone else - I have no idea what you are referring to about "Bellowhead". I don't recall every playing such a recording here in the U.S.

03 Jun 07 - 03:41 PM (#2067478)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Bellowhead". I don't recall every playing such a recording here in the U.S.

That was rather the point. It turned out you'd been playing tracks from Bellow

When I say 'I don't have a case', I mean (as any fule kno) that it's unnecessary to make one for behaving decently and ethically.

a royal pain in the ass

Indeed I am. First correct statement you've made. And I won't be stopping till those artists who want one get a deal.

Very odd people, these Murkans. Ooooh, must look at the small print first and see how we can screw these artists even more . . .

Must be a result of far too much Bushification.

03 Jun 07 - 03:46 PM (#2067488)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Steve Shaw

It appears, sadly, that Guest meself (brave name, btw) and Ron are attempting to do all in their power to hijack this forum away from the substantive and very important issues to hand. They have given up contributing opinions on the said issues and prefer the much easier path of indulgence in personal attacks. As I said, just the stuff to have Mr Bulmer laughing all the way to I don't know where. You do have to wonder at the motives of these two chaps. Hey, Guest 'n' Ron, would you or would you not like to hear 10,000 Miles on a real CD by Nic Jones in the knowledge that he'd be receiving royalties from your purchase? Yes or no? Or is it too complicated to answer? And if yes how do you think we can achieve that outcome? Or would you rather just carry on attacking Diane who I just know would answer those two questions the way the vast majority of us here would answer them? Have either of you actually got anything to say at all?

03 Jun 07 - 03:57 PM (#2067500)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

" That was rather the point. It turned out you'd been playing tracks from Bellow "

I think you have me confused with someone else. I do not recall ever playing anyting from Bellow either, and I checked my library and it is not there.

Steve, no, this is not an attempt to hijack the thread. When you and Diane choose to attack individuals rather than the point we make, we are forced to defend ourselves. I know it makes you feel like a "robust" individual, but you are not fooling anyone by trying to change the focus.

As I've previously answered your question, I will do so again because it seems as if you did not understand. Yes, I would love to see Nic Jones recordings released on real CDs and to have him earn real royalties. Was that too complicated an answer for you Steve?

Unfortunately, I doubt the royalities would be as high as you imagine, but still it would be a help - and it would help others realize just how good Nic Jones was. A generation has grown up that never heard Nic Jones live. Here in the United States, Nic Jones is unfortunately not well known at all. It would be wonderful to have recordings to share of his original recordings. The new Topic disc is nice, but it cannot replace the originals.

You ask how you can achieve that outcome? I wish I knew. Everytime I , or others, bring up a question we are insulted or browbeat. What I do know is that neanderthal responses will not serve your purpose and artists would starve to death in the streets before the public takes notice of messages like the one you are delivering.

Get over yourself and stop your personal attacks on those who are trying to discuss the issue. You are the one that is making it possible for Bulmer to continue on in his merry way. Is that your intent?

03 Jun 07 - 04:01 PM (#2067504)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

I'll answer since no-one else seems inclined.

(1) Yes. All four lost albums in a boxed set. Until that happens, keep on buying Unearthed (Mollie Music MMCD02/03).

(2) Er, short of setting off to Yorkshire with a shotgun, isn't this what we are supposed to be deciding?

03 Jun 07 - 04:17 PM (#2067511)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Steve Shaw

I haven't attacked anyone. Being direct is not the same as attacking. You're a very sensitive man obviously. I am far from Neanderthal, btw, as my appearance would reveal. Would you like me to send a photo? Actually, I suppose I could regard being called Neanderthal a personal attack of the kind you purport to eschew were it not for the fact that I regard the Neanderthals as a wonderful and noble race of humankind who were in harmony with their environment. Apart from that your post bears puzzlingly little relation to anything I've discussed. Act if you will to unfurrow my brows.

03 Jun 07 - 04:45 PM (#2067534)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

Sorry Steve, your doublespeak isn't working. I guess I am sensitive when a stranger calls me a scumbag, weasal - and worst of all, a lawyer.

I know my posts are not puzzling to anyone, even with your spinning. These tactics are wearing thin. Enough. If you don't wish to discuss the subject, just say so.

03 Jun 07 - 04:52 PM (#2067545)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,Ralphie

OK.
People.
Please stop this.
It's becoming unpleasant, and does not reflect well on the contributors to this thread.
All the arguements (Pro and Con) have been made.
Nothing will change re CM and Mr Bulmer.
I've been trying to get my head around this situation fo 20 years or more.
I'm actually going to give up the fight now.
Mr Dave Bulmer won....
I just hope he is happy
Goodbye
Ralph

03 Jun 07 - 05:12 PM (#2067565)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,meself

Steve:

I believe I have made two brief posts to this lengthy thread - and both were, however misguided, well-intentioned attempts to draw the discussion back to its focus. In one - way, way, back - I made a mild and cheerful suggestion that Ron and Diane apologize to each other. Unfortunately, they both ignored me, and things soon got beyond the point where that would seem be any kind of a possibility. In my last post, I was explaining what I took to be the sensible advice of another poster - and which it seemed to me you had misinterpeted - to stick to the topic and avoid the temptation to slide into personal squabbles. Your response to this was to imply that I lack courage, to state that I'm trying to 'hijack the thread', that I'm making personal attacks because that is easier than discussing the issue, that I have some ulterior motives, that I have been attacking Diane and enjoying doing so, etc. I'm a little bewildered by that response, but PLEASE do not try to explain.

You are welcome to check to see if I made any other posts; I can't be bothered. I may have. I'm sure, though, that far from having "given up contributing opinions on the said issues", I never DID contribute an opinion. And, no, as a matter of fact I don't "have anything to say at all" about the issues. I don't know anything about the situation and the persons involved other than what I've read on this thread, and I hardly think that qualifies me to start running off my mouth. I don't even know anything about this Nic Jones, other than that he appears to be a very respected figure in the UK folk scene. If you really want an opinion from me, here it is: if Nic Jones and others have been subjected to an injustice, I would like to see that righted. Is that good enough?

As for the issue of the use of pseudonyms for posting, it's often been discussed here, but you can always start a thread in the BS section to discuss it again. Depending what else I have on my plate, I may drop in to 'contribute' or I may not.

Once again, I would encourage you to talk about the topic at hand, and stop looking for, or trying to create, enemies. Look at the posts you've made so far - how much have YOU had to say about the topic, and how much about ... other things? That's a rhetorical question.

All the best.

03 Jun 07 - 05:33 PM (#2067580)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

The only mildly off-topic remarks Steve Shaw has made have been in defence of me, for which I thank him.

There are those contributing to this thread who are committed to the pursuit of justice, and those who are in it for some kind of game with no regard whatsoever for those whose livelihoods have long been, and still are, at stake.

Yes, I am a pain in the arse and will continue to be one until this is resolved. All I can do is shout and argue at those who, inexplicably, fail to recognise the injustice.

Others, such as Ralph who will be the capable, practical one who will bring the re-releases to fruition when the time comes, is now in despair and talks of giving up. Will someone else please call him and beg him not to do this. Right now, I can't do it.

03 Jun 07 - 05:45 PM (#2067584)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Steve Shaw

Let us rumble on below the surface, Diane. Ralph is right about this reflecting badly on the contributors. Whilst a couple of the testosterone-kids smirk, I squirm. This will run and run but perhaps not in this thread.

And, as a parting shot to the conspiracy theorists, I haven't a bloody clue who Diane is and she hasn't a bloody clue who I am, but if she's ever in Bude the Doom Bar's definitely on me. :-)

03 Jun 07 - 05:52 PM (#2067590)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

Steve and Diane - if you are ever in NYC, the round is on me. I truly think we could have a civil discussion face to face. There is too much "testoterone" being used here, on both sides of the fence.

Trust me, I am not smirking. I am sorry this discussion went this way. If you treated those of us who were asking questions with a little more respect, I think you would have succeded in convicing many people of the need to pressure Bulmer to "do the right thing". Instead, you helped create doubt, which did no good. I'm still left with unanswered questions, and searches of the internet show that there are others like me who also have some doubts. The only way to get the help that is needed is to show the cause. You failed to do that.

03 Jun 07 - 05:54 PM (#2067591)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Yes, thanks for the broadside at the conspiracy theorists. I meant to add such a comment myself.

And of course Ralph is right. He usually is. Not about giving up though.

See ya in the Doom Bar. Some day.

03 Jun 07 - 06:13 PM (#2067600)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Steve Shaw

Cobblers, Ron, as ever. But I'd give you the benefit in NYC even though I don't know about that frozen apology for "beer" you have over there. We could put the world to rights over a pint of ten of Doom, Diane, of that I'm certain. And Ralph, it's not about winners and losers. What we want is for everyone to win. Even that funny feller in Yorkshire. I speak with venom scarcely concealed as I'm a Lancashire lad missen. :-)

03 Jun 07 - 06:15 PM (#2067602)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Steve Shaw

A pint OR ten that would be. What is said can be unsaid.

03 Jun 07 - 06:20 PM (#2067605)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Folkiedave

Hey - just as you have become friends - don't start arguing on the merits of American beer, please.

Having been to the US of A twice I can confirm that spend a little time searching - some good beer out there.

Not much mind you...but some......

03 Jun 07 - 06:39 PM (#2067627)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

I've never found any good beer in the US.
Nor in Cornwall, actually.
Steve, since you're a Lancashire lad, can we re-arrange that to Boddington's pub instead?
I speak as a Yorkshire woman/drinker who'd actually prefer Black Sheep.
But not in Harrogate.
Obviously.

03 Jun 07 - 06:52 PM (#2067639)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

hold your horses.... at the risk of starting another fight, you don't know s#*t about beer in the U.S. !!!!!

I'm not going to drift this thread anymore than it already has, but I can guarantee you that you are drinking the wrong stuff. We are more than Bud and Coors. I've sampled Boddington's, and it isn't bad - at least the stuff they export here, but it doesn't compare to our microbrews. There are more styles of beer brewed in the U.S. than in any country in the world. You probably never sampled even a Samuel Adams, and I doubt you were ever exposed to anything from Stoudts, Riverhorse, Smuttynose, Flying Fish, or Anchor Steam.

Yes, I think we do want to see the "right" thing done, but there is still a lot of factors and work required to get to that point. I really suggest listening to others to help you get to that point.

03 Jun 07 - 06:54 PM (#2067641)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker

please just try to ensure this rich heritage of master tapes does not rot away completely
while you lot of old ego wankers argue with each other endlessly
until you all disapear together into the dank arsehole of infinity ..

03 Jun 07 - 07:02 PM (#2067649)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo

Well, PFR, what are your proposals for retrieving these masters?
Not, unfortunately, being in the pub, I'll open another can of 7% Polish beer (£5 for 6 in this Outer Warsaw North London suburb) and await your response.

03 Jun 07 - 07:38 PM (#2067663)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker

and yes.. public money is there for this kind of purchjase for teh nation..

if the 'right' people can get their act together and work postivtely
and constructively
to save these genuiinely valuable gems of UK folk culture..

but then again they can alternatively just continue to waste precious time
in petty personal counter productive conflicts.....

03 Jun 07 - 07:39 PM (#2067665)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Steve Shaw

It is very important that the issue is kept very public so that "they" who possess these priceless recordings know that there are thousands of people out there who are passionate about wanting our heritage back, and in all its glory, and with a good dose of fair play to the artists who did all the work. Dammit, even if the soddin' tapes have rotted a good lab could do wonders with vinyl copies. Hey, what was wrong with vinyl anyway! Mr Bulmer may agree with that and I wonder whether he sold all those excess stocks of vinyl LPs he used to moan about. I didn't see too many ads for them in Froots when I was a subscriber in the days before it disappeared up its own world music 'arris. The good fight, at the end of which everyone will be a victor, must continue. Excelsior!

03 Jun 07 - 08:14 PM (#2067684)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: dick greenhaus

In case anyone doesn't know, there are four CDs og Nic Jones available, none of which have anything to do with Celtic Music. "In Search Of...", "Unearthed (2 CDs)", "Game, Set, Match" and "Penguin Eggs".

And CAMSCO carries those, too.

04 Jun 07 - 03:07 AM (#2067882)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,Ralphie

Hi Ron.
I really intended not to post again.
But for accuracies sake.

I quote frrom you.
"Unfortunately, I doubt the royalities would be as high as you imagine, but still it would be a help - and it would help others realize just how good Nic Jones was. A generation has grown up that never heard Nic Jones live. Here in the United States, Nic Jones is unfortunately not well known at all. It would be wonderful to have recordings to share of his original recordings. The new Topic disc is nice, but it cannot replace the originals."

Well, without the wonderful Tony Engle (MD of Topic records) having the belief in the "Game,Set,Match" CD project last year, and advancing money to Nic before the CD was even made, Nic would probably have had to have received his Lifetime achievement award from the BBC (to a standing ovation) in a weelchair.

The advance was used to reconstruct his knee, not a cheap procedure. (probably a result from the crash).

Topic records have kept Penguin Eggs available for 27 Years.
It is still one of their best sellers, hence Tony's confidence in the Game,Set,Match project.

No, the royalties from the lost 4 albums would have made a considerable difference to Nic and his family. Imagine the income over 26 years.....A hell of a lot of money.

And, if the complete collection were to be released now (David Suff, where are you?),we could then get, (as you US guys put it)
"Closure" on this sad and sorry story.
Of course it's far too late for Tony Rose (who, before he sadly died, had to revisit and re-record songs that are still lost in the CM bunker) and Lal Waterson (Bright Phoebus).
And talking of whom. another nod and a handshake for Mr Engle for believing in the "Shining Bright" project (Various artists recording the Mike and Lal collection).

It was always about justice. I just don't see any justice happening at the moment.

Kind regards, and no shouting!!

Ralph

04 Jun 07 - 12:06 PM (#2068229)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,Manny

If you go into a shop and purchase items they are yours. At a later date the shop can not, or in deed anyone else can not, moan and groan because you wont sell them back or onto others. The items purchased are YOUR PROPERTY to do with what YOU want. You have bought that right.

04 Jun 07 - 03:00 PM (#2068380)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST

This thread no longer does exactly what is says on the tin (if it ever really did).
After a token nod towards field singers, it now seems to have settled comfortably into the 'Fair play for folkies' mode.
I Have to say that whenever the subject of Bulmer comes up I have to ask myself a number of questions:
1.        How much sleep do I lose by no longer being able to purchase albums of Bill Leader's revival singers? - Answer; as I didn't buy them first time round, very little really.
2.        Do I believe that by releasing them, the revival will be nudged back on course? - Answer; as I tend towards the school of thought that suggests that it was the idiosyncratic, hiccoughy, over-accompanied style of singing that Bill seemed to favour which nudged it off course in the first place, no I don't. (Light blue touch paper and retire rapidly)!
3.        Do I believe that the re-issuing of the Walter Pardon, John Maguire, George Dunne, Cecilia Costello, Charlie Wills and Lincolnshire albums et al will help the present revival come to terms with the tradition? – Answer; would it were that simple.
I have come to the conclusion, particularly after participating in a number of these threads, that most singers today share the Cap'n's somewhat Philistine (as I understand it) preference of revival singers over traditional ones, to which I can only respond 'chacun son goút'. It seems to me that if we haven't learned anything from our older singers, then we've learned nothing and have lost out on a golden opportunity. I can't help but notice that nobody has responded to my question 'is there a queue out there clamouring to get their hands on some of those wonderful records'. I still have all the vinyl versions and wouldn't part with them for all of Michael Flatley's money.                                                I have no idea why Dave Bulmer is behaving as he is towards the Leader albums. Perhaps he is the shit many people seem to believe he is. Perhaps he is a shrewd businessman who thinks that if he hangs onto them long enough, they will come back into fashion. Whatever his reasons, I am certain of one thing; if he isn't open to reason and logic, and if he isn't worried by threats of law suits and blacklists, all the abuse and slagging-off he gets of threads like this isn't going to change his mind.

If anybody wishes to send me a letter-bomb I'll be in Bon Secour Hospital for a couple of days having another piece cut off my face.
Blessums Possums.
Jim Carroll

04 Jun 07 - 04:27 PM (#2068467)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

Ralph, thank you for the post. That helps me get a better understanding. I am glad to hear that the Topic recordings have been a help and Nic Jones was able to earn some royalties through their release. It is wonderful that the royalties were high enough to help him.

Here in the U.S., sales of CD's are not enough unless you are a pop musician. While some can make a nice living throug CD sales, it is very difficult. Artists must tour. I know that Dave Van Ronk had difficulty in his later years because of a lack of health insurance.

Recently, a record label tried re-releasing some of the old Tradition records released in the 50's and 60's. After an initial flurry of activity, I have not received a single CD in a year. I can only surmise that the sales were not as good as expected. The company did a nice job of cleaning up the masters but not altering the music. It is a shame that more people are not interested.

As someone once said, there are hundreds of dollars to be made in folk music.

04 Jun 07 - 04:34 PM (#2068475)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Steve Shaw

Well, Jim, A very large number of us would buy Nic Jones' early albums if they came out (properly - I won't dwell on that again) on CD. Of that I'm certain. The other thing is your remark: "...I tend towards the school of thought that suggests that it was the idiosyncratic, hiccoughy, over-accompanied style of singing that Bill seemed to favour which nudged it off course in the first place..." Have you actually listened to Nic Jones accompanying himself? His guitar-playing, so apt for his voice, was wonderful, and your comment is way off-beam. I'm inclined to think you may be in a minority of one among thousands if you really meant your remark to apply to Nic. Blimey!

04 Jun 07 - 04:51 PM (#2068497)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,Manny

SS, "a very large number of us would buy Nic Jones"
How many is a large number of us? what research have you done? Would you be prepared to fund the release of the music and take the hit in your pocket if necessary?

04 Jun 07 - 05:54 PM (#2068556)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: katlaughing

At the risk of more vitriol, I am posting the following from Nic's website, assuming most of you know, but perhaps not. FWIW:

Because of the lack of availability of Nic's first 4 albums and endless requests over the years for anything that was or could be made available, Nic finally agreed to the use of live recordings. Julia set up Mollie Music Records and Dave Emery, who over the years had lovingly and diligently rescued, catalogued and re-mastered tapes of Nic's live recordings, produced the long awaited CD, In Search of Nic Jones.

It's something at least.

04 Jun 07 - 05:56 PM (#2068559)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Steve Shaw

Well, Manny, I'm a bit skint and couldn't fund a sausage, but can you not just imagine, say, a box set of Nic's early recordings selling five-figure numbers? What research could I possibly have done? Oh, 'twould be a risk, but just think of the publicity the release would get from Mike Harding and Froots just for starters. Megabucks would not be in it but just think of the rightness of it all. Even Bulmer would have a smile on his face to replace the smirk he probably wears permanently when he reads the squabbling of us minnows.

04 Jun 07 - 06:02 PM (#2068566)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Tootler

Jim Carroll wrote

Do I believe that the re-issuing of the Walter Pardon, John Maguire, George Dunne, Cecilia Costello, Charlie Wills and Lincolnshire albums et al will help the present revival come to terms with the tradition? – Answer; would it were that simple.

It may not be practical or financially worthwhile re-issuing recordings of these singers, but what about the Internet?

I use the Farne website from time to time and they have a large number of soundclips there which I find interesting as you can learn about the playing styles of many of instrumentalists who are contemporaries of the singers listed above.

The younger generation are just as likely to go to the internet for recordings as they are to buy CDs. A great advantage of the internet is that you can listen to individual recordings and download those you want to keep.

04 Jun 07 - 10:31 PM (#2068739)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Malcolm Douglas

Yes; it's very convenient for people who expect to be given everything on a plate at no cost or effort to themselves.

Do you have any idea how much money it took to put Farne online? With the extraordinarily generous funding they were given, all sorts of things would be possible. I'd hope, if such funding ever again becomes available, that it will be used less self-indulgently. The Farne website is a thorough pain to navigate; regrettably, they went for surface gloss rather than functionality.

05 Jun 07 - 12:29 AM (#2068787)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: punkfolkrocker

could whoever deleted my post immediately preceding

"From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:38 PM"

please reinstate it.

even though I forgot to type in my name..and it appeared as a GUEST post,

it was clear to anyone here that the 2 posts were a consistent and considered reply from me[even if i had been on the cider..]
written rapidly one after teh other.

but now that you removed the 'substance' of my 1st reply
the 2nd part really dont make half as much sense..

does seeem a bit of an over-zealous petty-minded deletion..

even in this mean spirited climate of 'zero tolerance' for GUEST POSTINGs..

a bit of editing discretion and you could have just typed my name in for me and left it intact..

05 Jun 07 - 12:32 AM (#2068788)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker

buggered if i can remember all of what i wrote last night..
but i'm sure it was one of my more sensible posts..

05 Jun 07 - 12:33 AM (#2068790)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST

oh well.. g'night

05 Jun 07 - 12:42 AM (#2068794)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad

Wait a minute......hold on..... back up the bus here....??
Are you telling me that Diane really is the Countess?
I was just having a wee go at the Countess when I said that!

05 Jun 07 - 02:35 AM (#2068825)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST

Steve
Quick last word.
Yes, I certainly have listened to Nic Jones.
Liking or disliking a singer is a matter of personal taste (and debate, in the right circumstances) and I have my opinions of his singing as I have with all singers I have heard.
What I was referring to is the fact that at one stage, the revival imploded when it became swamped with Carthy clones and Moore mimics and Bellamy bleaters who adopted the styles and mannerisms of their particular heroes. This, for me, became incredibly incestuous and lost the whole impetus of that had built up.
Jim Carroll

Jim, please note that anonymous posting is no longer allowed at Mudcat. Use a consistent name [in the 'from' box] when you post, or your messages risk being deleted.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

05 Jun 07 - 02:52 AM (#2068831)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

JIM CARROLL,I have never said that I preferred revival singers to traditional,It depends on the singers involved regardless of labels.I prefer Jeannie Robertson toBob Davenport[ Bob is still a good singer], I prefer RonTaylor[to gordon hall].Isaid that Ithought they were equally important.

05 Jun 07 - 04:16 AM (#2068859)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

JimCarroll,there is hope that this may effect Celtic Music,something prompted him to do the morally right thing for Calennig.
[MickTemsPatSmith].hope your stay in Hospital is a short one,and that you get well soon.

05 Jun 07 - 07:20 PM (#2069539)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Tootler

Yes; it's very convenient for people who expect to be given everything on a plate at no cost or effort to themselves.

I'm ever so sorry to have had the temerity to have even considered making my suggestion.

Do you have any idea how much money it took to put Farne online? With the extraordinarily generous funding they were given, all sorts of things would be possible. I'd hope, if such funding ever again becomes available, that it will be used less self-indulgently. The Farne website is a thorough pain to navigate; regrettably, they went for surface gloss rather than functionality

Since you are so wonderful, why not do it yourself next time and show them all how it should be done. The Farne website may not be perfect but it is still a useful resource.

In future don't patronise me.

06 Jun 07 - 05:18 AM (#2069794)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)

I agree with the Tootler. The internet is definitely a way to resolve this problem. Folk specialist download sites already exist that have made long out of print stuff available again legally - the main one in the UK (which I won't mention by name because I assume that would be advertising) even has an MCPS licence. If DB was to do a deal with a site like that it would surely make everyone happy - and in a fairly low cost, low risk way.

BTW, I wasn't aware of the FARNE site and took a look at it from the link in this thread. What an excellent resource it is.

Nigel

06 Jun 07 - 05:43 AM (#2069806)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Folkiedave

The Farne website cost a relative fortune. You need to know that things are not as simple as just "setting these things up". And I agree with Malcolm it could be much much better.

The EFDSS is currently working on its own folk resource - this is here.. It isn't perfect - I doubt if it will ever be - but people are trying. Done by people in their spare time. I added a few books yesterday. Only took an hour or so.

06 Jun 07 - 06:02 AM (#2069817)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Folkiedave

I should have added that people's time is not infinite.

Since you are so wonderful, why not do it yourself next time and show them all how it should be done

Malcolm in his wisdom and by personal choice has decided to spend his time doing the SRFN website, helping with the EFDSS publications such as Classic English Folk Songs, Marrow Bones (forthcoming) and the next book in the series Wanton Seed. He also edited the SRFN magazine until it ceased publication.

He also (unlike me who is retired) has to make a living.

06 Jun 07 - 06:36 AM (#2069830)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

thanks to tootler for mentioning this site,thanks also to Malcolm and Dave Eyre for their work.

06 Jun 07 - 09:45 AM (#2069939)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,Young Buchan

Further to the question of the early collectors not paying their informants: I seem to recall Harry Cox saying that Moeran and Vaughan Williams were 'proper gentlemen' because when they sold songs 'up in London' for 'every quid they got from them, they gave me ten bob' (that, for younger readers is 30p for every Euro).
Contrast the story that Bob Pegg used to tell about the night Harry was at a folk club, I guess in the late sixties, and people were practically shoving recorder mikes up his nose, without any request for permission to Harry himself. When Bob protested, the MC replied, 'Oh it's only old Harry. He doesn't know what's going on.'

06 Jun 07 - 10:24 AM (#2069954)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,baz parkes

just to go back to the beer bit....I've tried Sam Adams and Anchor Steam Brewery....for what it's worth

Neither of them would enhance my enjoyment of a Nic Jones CD

Mind you, neither would Boddingtons, Black Sheep or even good old Banks'

Having the CD available would be enjoyment enough

As we used to sing in the Black Country..."Born to Drink Mild..."

Baz

06 Jun 07 - 11:23 AM (#2069995)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: M.Ted

The recordings and records that we've been discussing here are of great musical and historical interest, but they aren't commercially viable any more. It will require substantial expenditures of time and money to turn them into either CDs or downloadable music files.

It isn't likely that many of the albums would recoup the costs incurred in this process, let alone generate profits--Now, they belong to history, and will ultimately have to be handled and managed as artifacts.

06 Jun 07 - 01:34 PM (#2070078)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

young buchan,you quote one particular incident[re folk clubs],itwould be unfortunate if people got the impression that Harry Cox was always treated this way in folk clubs,.Iam sure he wasnt.

06 Jun 07 - 07:19 PM (#2070338)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Tootler

The Farne website cost a relative fortune.

I can understand that. It shows in the way it is set up.

You need to know that things are not as simple as just "setting these things up".

I appreciate that. When I was working full time, I had a website for my undergraduate students. It may not have been fully up to professional standards, but it still took a lot of time and effort to set up and maintain, but was much appreciated by the students. I was not in any way intending to underestimate the time and effort needed, but rather trying to suggest that this was a way of making available what is currently not readily available.

And I agree with Malcolm it could be much much better.

I agree there are aspects that could be improved, but that does not alter the fact that it is still a valuable resource.

Since you are so wonderful, why not do it yourself next time and show them all how it should be done

Malcolm in his wisdom and by personal choice has decided to spend his time doing the SRFN website, helping with the EFDSS publications such as Classic English Folk Songs, Marrow Bones (forthcoming) and the next book in the series Wanton Seed. He also edited the SRFN magazine until it ceased publication.

Fair enough. I was, however, intensely irritated by what I saw as a patronising tone - not for the first time, I might add - in what came over as a very negative response. I made the initial suggestion in good faith, well aware that there would be considerable difficulties to be overcome. Nevertheless, I still think it is a way forward.

Anahata, in another thread, made the comment that the source recordings are mainly consulted by the professionals. One reason for this (though not the only one), I suggest is that these recordings are not readily available to an "average" amateur like myself. I agree there is Topic's "Voice of the People" series, but to buy the complete set would involve a considerable outlay. One advantage of the Internet is that you can download individual tracks. Of course it may prove necessary to charge for downloads, but that is reasonable providing the price is right.

28 Feb 22 - 08:58 AM (#4138044)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

quote from the obituary
Publicity wasn’t his style; his first love was the music.

It probably isn’t widely known that Dave Bulmer also acquired the rights to material from a number of small record labels who had recorded other aspects of British culture including various recordings of Brass Bands. Dave wasn’t a collector in the sense of a Cecil Sharp or a Peter Kennedy, but he had amassed a vast amount of material in his stores."
The music HAS BEEN in effect lost, it has not been released for 40 years. I made a recording with The New Mexborough English Concertina Quartet in 1986 this has been acquired by Dave Bulmer and is unreleased . I understand that music by NicJones an old man who can no longer play is also unreleased and owned by the Bulmer Family.
if his first love was the music why is this material unreleased.

28 Feb 22 - 09:00 AM (#4138046)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 29 May 07 - 01:18 PM

I believe Cecil Sharp,paid some of his sources.did he not pay for Kimbers concertina to be repaired[Correct me if Iam wrong].
Frank Kidson always offered to buy his source a drink.
Dave Bulmer,has at least two tunes in the collection that I am under the impression were composed by Paddy Fahey,I hope he had his permission to use this material,and reimbursed him.

01 Mar 22 - 01:31 PM (#4138105)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

Dave Bulmers business dealings have had a result of some recorded music being suppressed, this includes Bright Phoebus and some of the work of Nic Jones, and a Recording of New Mexborough English Concertina Quartet Sharp in contrast collected music but published it .
Dave was more like a collector of birds eggs or Butterflies in the sense that certain aspects of his collection were never shown to the public or available to the public.
what an Epitaph

01 Mar 22 - 04:37 PM (#4138122)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Sol

As a songwriter (of sorts), I would much rather my songs were out there in the world being sung or listened to by somebody somewhere - anywhere, (even for free!) than to have them condemned to eternal obsurity in some "collector's" cupboard.

What baffles me is, what kind of odd pleasure do collectors (aka hoarders) get from depriving the world of any kind of art form? Surely
after the collector's demise and through the passage of time, the items will cease to have any viable form of generating income or having any real value to the inheritors? They would be better sold off and/or made free to people who will cherish and respect their true value.

(BTW, tin hat on ready for a possible 'Royaltists Revolt') ;-)

01 Mar 22 - 05:27 PM (#4138128)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Malcolm Storey

Can't say you didn't regurgitate this one Dick.

Hey Ho.

02 Mar 22 - 01:12 AM (#4138155)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

I think it is important to keep this in folk music public awareness .
Nic Jones cannot play as a result of a car accident, he is an old man his music has been suppressed. periodically this is going to be brought to the attention of the public, everything in these posts will stick to facts,

02 Mar 22 - 02:19 AM (#4138157)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

this from Ralph Jordan, many years ago
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,Ralphie - PM
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 04:08 AM

Happy Sunday everybody.
Just a few points.
Interestingly, Joe Offer has closed the Phoebus thread. I wonder who it was that asked him to do that?
Hardly surprising I suppose. This whole sorry saga must make strange reading to our friends across the pond. And the vitriol released in that thread (inc me, Mea Culpa) Has obfuscated the very deep feelings felt by a lot of us Brits over this affair.
Malcolm. (and John Adams hi!)
Thanks for your input, It's really good to know that the rights to some of the rarest recordings remain safe.

It would be wonderful if this collection of recordings could be made available.

Messrs Howson, Hall, Stradling, Engle.
I would be happy to help in the process.

Mr Greenhaus.

From what I know, you have been absolutely clear about your dealings "With the Trade"
Of course, you are running a business, no problem.
You deal with whoever approaches you, in your own way.
But, as has been stated many times, this isn't about money.
I know that you have been squeaky clean in your dealings with Julia Jones (Mollie Music). And I salute you for that.
It's wonderful that these compilations of Nics work are available in the US.
But, what a shame that the original recordings of the first 4 albums are being sneakily put out, (a sort of, meet you in the car park, and I'll slip you a copy, sort of way)
I just find it very sad.
Everbody else, Thanks for your input, but lets just stay with the facts, and stop sniping at each other.
Oxygen of Publicity
Great phrase, but it can turn round and bite you, if you're not careful.
Joe can close as many threads as he likes, but, sadly this topic (sic) won't go away, (I really wish it would)
Have a nice day

Ralph

02 Mar 22 - 02:58 AM (#4138162)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 30 May 07 - 06:03 PM

QUOTE From: WFDU - Ron Olesko - PM

"This is a complicated subject. A contract is a contract, and while 'moral' issues may be present, there are also 'ethical' questions.

I'm not defending Bulmer, everything I have read about him makes him sound slimey. Still, I think there are other sides to the issue."

Yes indeed, there are other sides to the issue all right. Here's one of them. One of the very finest singers in the English or any other tradition made some sublime albums. The rights to those recordings passed to a bloke who will not allow this wonderful man to make a single penny from them, in spite of the fact that he came upon very hard times and was unable to perform ever again. Please do not bore me with you weasel moral, ethical or contractual issues.

02 Mar 22 - 10:31 AM (#4138199)
Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman

What concerns me is the action of A certain business man who has suppressed the music of Nic Jones, and a recording called Bright Phoebus and other recordings these have not seen the light of day for decades.

lack of publicity since he died has achieved nothing.it is important to remind people periodically, lest we forget NicJ ones can no longer play, and is an old man.
as Ralph Jordan said before he died the oxygen of publicity is important providing we stick to facts , that is what i am doing.
my health is fine, i have been out fundraising successfully for a folk festival.
that is what i do play music sing and run folk festivals to give people pleasure.
I do not try to be a busisness man I care about injustice, and while something maybe perfectly legal ,i have the right to question the moral ethics of what i know has happened on the uk folk scene. I will not be quietened by anonymous guest posts