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03 Jun 07 - 10:12 AM (#2067179) Subject: Kennedy Airport Story From: Mickey191 How can we ever understand hatred like this? A naturalized American citizen living in the country for 40 yrs., employed at the airport, nice little home, was evidently the prime mover in the plan to destroy the fuel lines servicing the airport. Three arrested & one other being sought. They are calling these men "freelancers". Radical Islam is the impetus for the plan it seems. Your thoughts? |
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03 Jun 07 - 11:19 AM (#2067245) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: mack/misophist Many of these stories have been crap. Let's wait and see. |
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03 Jun 07 - 03:30 PM (#2067467) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Bert Right Mickey, Hatred breeds hatred. What we need is a few shows on TV showing ordinary Moslem families and the love and tolerance that they have for each other and their neighbors. Then perhaps love can breed love. |
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03 Jun 07 - 03:40 PM (#2067476) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: tarheel wow bert,what planet are you from?get a life guy! these people are brainwashed with hatred for america while they are still in diapers!you can rest assured that they have never experienced loving their own family let alone americans or even europeans,for that matter! they'd chop your head off in a flash bother! get real! |
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03 Jun 07 - 03:50 PM (#2067493) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Keith A of Hertford The people who blew themselves up in London came from normal Muslim families, were born and brought up here and went through school here. One was a teaching assistant in a school. They were not from a deprived underclass. Their background was that of a million others. Yet they believed that Allah the merciful would welcome them to paradise drenched in the blood of his children. |
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03 Jun 07 - 03:56 PM (#2067498) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Folkiedave Some people are nutters. Some people aren't. We don't condemn all Christians in America because some barmpot spends $27,000,000 on a christian theme park which is simply b**l*ck*. We don't condemn all Americans because of its nutty religious leaders, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson et al...... Let alone Shrub. |
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03 Jun 07 - 03:56 PM (#2067499) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Bert Guess you've never been there Tarheel!!! |
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03 Jun 07 - 04:38 PM (#2067531) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Sorcha Guess old tarheel is a 'hater' in spite of his avowed Christianity and it's teachings. Sounds like he hates Muslims to me. |
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03 Jun 07 - 04:47 PM (#2067536) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Folkiedave You cannot expect a good christian to follow christian teaching. Too many holes in that one. |
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03 Jun 07 - 04:50 PM (#2067538) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: skipy Sleepers, they are out there! they will strike when ready & when we are not. Skipy |
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03 Jun 07 - 04:56 PM (#2067551) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Big Mick Tarheel shows himself to be a bigotted, racist person. I have lost all respect for him. I don't want to hear his music, and from here out I won't read his posts. In the event you aren't smart enough to figure out why, tarheel, let me tell you. Where do you come off describing all Moslems as "these people". Are you aware that the way we penetrate the terrorist groups is by using Arab American MOSLEM agents? Are you aware that the American Moslem community rejects these folks? How do you feel about the Iraqui Moslem citizens that are fighting the terrorists? I wonder if you feel the same way about Christians who kill abortion clinic workers, and justify it in the name of God? Or are they somehow different? Should we paint all Christians based on those actions. You are a bigotted, ignorant man and I wish you would leave The Mudcat. |
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03 Jun 07 - 05:15 PM (#2067568) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: artbrooks And let me add one more "for example" to Mick's: are you aware that there are many Arabic and Pushtu-speaking Americans, citizens or otherwise, who are joining the US Army solely to go to Iraq or Afganistan as translators and cultural interpreters? And that there is a program at Ft. Jackson (my brother is one of the instructors) to make sure that their English is adequate for the task? And that these patriots are high-value targets for Quaida? |
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03 Jun 07 - 09:50 PM (#2067763) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: GUEST,Songster Bob What I wonder is why the story broke now, with one of the "plotters" still at large, and the case going back over a year. So why now? Seems to me that Scooter Libby will be sentenced Tuesday, so .... Bob |
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03 Jun 07 - 11:11 PM (#2067811) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Mickey191 Good Point--Think it's called Diversion. |
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03 Jun 07 - 11:16 PM (#2067815) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: John on the Sunset Coast Gee, it took 13 posts to get to CONSPIRACY theory. What took so long? |
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03 Jun 07 - 11:31 PM (#2067820) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Bert ...in spite of his avowed Christianity... Don't see how he can be a Christian. I thought there was "Love thy neighbor" somewhere in Christianity. That poor guy doesn't seem to have any love. Perhaps if he were to live with Moslems he might learn some. Poor, poor guy. I hope he eventually finds love, kindness and tolerance somewhere. |
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04 Jun 07 - 12:08 AM (#2067831) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: GUEST,Texas Guest Well, I cannot believe ANYTHING that comes from the mouth of this administration or anyone connected with it. Until absolutely confirmed I must consider this JFK Airport thing a set-up, a hoax or simply a con or spin designed to enhance the fading notion that the republican party needs to remain in power to best protect the citizenry of the US. Nonsense, simply nonsense. |
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04 Jun 07 - 08:45 AM (#2068069) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Sorcha Sort of a pity, but I'll bet money that tarheel doesn't come back to see what Mick said. Or anyone else either. He just pops in, stirs, and leaves. I think he must be a very angry, lonely man. |
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04 Jun 07 - 09:37 AM (#2068101) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: John Hardly This is kinda weird. I admit that I almost never read tarheel's posts. I don't read very many post here, period -- mostly people with whom I've been familiar with here for the past five years. Time is short and there's just too much shit here. But to extrapolate all that has been said ABOUT tarheel on the basis of his one post here is, to my eye, WAY overblown. I didn't read into his post any more than condemnation of the islamic terrorists. And it's not extreme or outlandish to assert that those terrorists are taught their hatred from a very young age. And the same who are outraged at tarheel seem not to be bothered one bit the almost daily hatred spewed here toward Christianity. In fact, some here are the same who do so. And now make accustions about tarheel's bigotry? I suppose I haven't read enough of tarheel's posts. But I sure have read an eyeful of anti-Christian rhetoric here. I guess you're just trying to organize the who's who and the who's not welcome here. I suppose that needs to be done from time to time. Can't have too many dissenting voices, donchaknow. |
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04 Jun 07 - 10:45 AM (#2068155) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: tarheel SORRY,BIG MICK! i aint going no where...been here a long time and read mudcat every day and post my opinions whenever i like! you are the typlical LIBERA that gets pissed off if some else disagrees with you! well let me tell you LIBERAL JERK,i've never had to ask you for permission to be here nor to post anything here,and i sure as hell dont intend to start now! so put that in your potheaded pipe and smoke it! funny thing,i never see your liberal jerks complain about anyone else's post but mine and you cant wait toi call me RACIST,just because i disagree with you... well,if that's what a RACIST is,than i guess im a RACIST...because i would never,ever agree with your LIBERAL SLIMEBALL opinions! |
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04 Jun 07 - 10:46 AM (#2068156) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: John Hardly ok. now I see. :^) |
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04 Jun 07 - 10:49 AM (#2068164) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: tarheel BY THE WAY,MICKEY!!! I'M TICKLED AS HELL TO KNOW THAT I BUG THE SHIT OUT OF YOU!!! hahahahahahaah ehhehehehehehehehe lol...lol...lol |
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04 Jun 07 - 10:52 AM (#2068165) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: tarheel AND...as for you JOHN HARDLY...stick it where the sun doin't shine too! |
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04 Jun 07 - 11:11 AM (#2068180) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: John Hardly I'm very tall. And when the sun is low on the horizon, I cast such a long (though narros -- I'm really skinny) shadow on the earth that the square footage of area where the sun doesn't shine is IMMENSE. So immense, in fact, that I don't actually ever have to "stick" it there. I can usually get things where the sun don't shine with a rather casual toss. Often I don't even have to look before I toss. But that shadow moves all the time. Nearly every time I move, so does that shadow. I think, though I'd have to complete the research necessary to state with scientific certainty, that there is a connection between when I move, and when the shadow that I cast moves. I'm pretty sure that the shadow knows, though. Wouldn't that make the ginchiest tag line for a radio program?! "The shadow knows...". Man, I can almost hear it. Deep, dramatic voice with ominous overtones..."the shadow knows...". Killer idea, man. Glad you thought of it. Glad we had this discussion. |
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04 Jun 07 - 11:28 AM (#2068191) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: GUEST,dianavan From what I understand, the 'terrorists' did not have any money or explosives and the informant was a drug dealer. Doesn't sound as if it was anything more than a few disgruntled men criticizing Bush and saying how easy it would be to ... Lets wait and see. My guess is its more fear tactics and a diversion from reality. ...and yes, tarheel, you are a coward who is full of fear and hatred. |
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04 Jun 07 - 11:38 AM (#2068202) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Bunnahabhain For tarheel May the God in which you believe open your eyes, and heal the hate in your heart. |
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04 Jun 07 - 11:44 AM (#2068207) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: GUEST,dianavan "Investigators acknowledged, however, that the scheme was so nascent that there was no developed plan for how the plotters would get explosives, let alone gain access to the tanks and pipelines they hoped to target." http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.plot03jun03,0,6945889.story?coll=bal-nationworld-headlines |
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04 Jun 07 - 11:50 AM (#2068214) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Greg B It sort of makes you wonder--- how many such 'plots' are sort of 'with every jar that hit the bar' sort of things of which no notice would have been taken in earlier times. Pure 'hot air.' But now, it's like saying 'bomb' in the check-in line at the airport. |
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04 Jun 07 - 11:58 AM (#2068221) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: John Hardly Oh, it's those little things like 2 jet airliners flying into skyscrapers killing 3,000 that account for the little changes. Silly paranoid security people. Like they had to decide to do their jobs now?! No doubt, if 9/11 had been thwarted, the news would have opined, "...of course, it has been speculated that the airliners would have only inflicted minor damage -- requiring a few weeks down time to make small repairs to a couple, three of the upper floors of the WTC. The FBI need not get overly self-congratulatory. They are, after all, dickheads and a tool of a fascist, one-party, DePublican government, too arrogant to be allowed to exist any longer". okay, maybe I exaggerated a wee bit. |
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04 Jun 07 - 12:52 PM (#2068283) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Mickey191 I was wondering about the woman from FBI (red dress) whom I cannot ID who went on & on about the great damage which would have resulted if the plan had suceeded. She went on & on & on. I'm wondering about the "freelancers" who might be thinking-"Gee we simply have to try this again! Had no idea it would be THAT bad." When other authorities spoke, they downplayed the resultant damage totally. The truth is hiding somewhere. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ BY the way--I awoke this morning to find I had a PM from a certain TARHEEL. It was a repeat of the vile post at 10:45AM. For further edification: I'm Mickey191-a female senior. Senior enough to wonder why the "F" word is tossed around as if it's common usage in polite society. IT AIN"T !!! |
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04 Jun 07 - 03:01 PM (#2068384) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Greg B Fuel dumps tend to be in rather isolated areas, and airports tend to have great empty tracts of land (something to do with runways being long and narrow, and jet noise being hard to concentrate beneath). Furthermore, fuel pipelines tend to have automated systems which recognize a breach and close valves automatically and strategically. Heck, when you drive out of the filling station with the hose still in your gas-tank, it breaks away nicely and a check-valve stops the flow. I believe various parties sensationalized the results for interests of their own; the media because it's what they do, law enforcement to reinforce their own importance in the scheme of things and perhaps also to say "we missed 9/11, but see what we prevented this time!" |
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04 Jun 07 - 03:25 PM (#2068410) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: GUEST,mgarvey Good luck to everyone in what is to come. The more this is laughed about the easier it will be for domestic or international enemies to accomplish, and already it is easy enough to pull off a series of smaller events. mg |
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04 Jun 07 - 03:28 PM (#2068413) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Big Mick John, my comment isn't anti Christian. I am a Christian. My comment has to do with this bigot, and it definitely is rooted in his record. Perhaps you should do the research before condemning my comments. Time and again this so called "Christian" makes these types of comments. I have spent a lifetime battling small minded bigots, and I will certainly condemn them here as well. And by the way, are you suggesting that 9/11 justifies spewing hatred of all Moslems? Those that are fighting the fundamentalist wacko Muslims will be interested in knowing this. And one last post to Tarheel. You can call me a liberal jerk here all you want. But I have been wounded twice in service to this country, how about you? You don't bug me as much as you disgust me. You claim to love the country, but you espouse hatred of your fellow man, and espouse ideas that fly in the face of what it means to be American. It is my opinion that you are the furthest thing from a patriot. What you are is a lily white bigot. Your words have shown it time and again. Mick |
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04 Jun 07 - 03:39 PM (#2068424) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: John Hardly "And by the way, are you suggesting that 9/11 justifies spewing hatred of all Moslems?" Re-read my post (or any other of my posts) and tell me how you could even conclude a reason to ask me this. |
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04 Jun 07 - 03:46 PM (#2068433) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Big Mick You are right. Please accept my apologies, John. I went back and reread the post. I misunderstood. You note that you haven't read this person's posts. I have bit my tongue for the last time on him. Mick |
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04 Jun 07 - 03:48 PM (#2068434) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: John Hardly you da man, mick. :^) luv, me'n'the dog |
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04 Jun 07 - 04:32 PM (#2068473) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: GUEST,282RA Who in their right mind would believe this crock of stupid shit?? As usual, there was no plot, no planning, no training--just the word of a twice-convicted drug-dealer. Just more typical Bush bullshit. Some of you, it seems, will believe this asshole no matter how many times he lies to your face. I put this story (and a story is exactly what it is) where I put all the other so-called terrorist plots Bush claims to have foiled--on ignore. The very presence of this story is a dead giveaway that the surge is looking like crap and in need of a diversion. |
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04 Jun 07 - 06:06 PM (#2068571) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Sorcha And, I recieved 2 PMs from ole tarheel. I do not want anymore. I do not enjoy communicating (or rather, trying to) with hypocritical, racist bigots. John, if you like, you can click on his name and see the other garbage he has spewed here. It is not dissent we disagree with, it is hatred and bigotry. tarheel/Chuck, if as you say, you read everything and are reading this, do not, I repeat, DO NOT send me any more communications. |
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04 Jun 07 - 07:09 PM (#2068619) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Jeri ...I'm waiting for him to call someone a 'meathead'. Mudcat's very own Archie Bunker - without the humor. |
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04 Jun 07 - 07:23 PM (#2068634) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: John Hardly You guys are so sensitive. Try being a conservative and post on the mudcat. I'd give you a week and you'd be begging for mere tarheel treatment. *BG* :^) |
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04 Jun 07 - 07:30 PM (#2068639) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: John Hardly ...actually, I'm picking the wrong thread to make that point. The people complaining about tarheel here are among those who have treated me well here. |
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05 Jun 07 - 01:39 AM (#2068812) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Big Mick I got the same PM, Sorcha. I put him on notice, and am putting him on notice here in public. He will not be allowed to stalk people. He is welcome to express his opinions in the threads, and stand the test of public scrutiny. If you have warned him, or anyone to stop, and they do not, let us know. We will resolve that. Mick |
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05 Jun 07 - 02:27 AM (#2068820) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: GUEST,dianavan The arrest of these so-called 'terrorists' is obviously a way to divert our attention away from the fact that the 'surge' is failing. Bush is just trying to justify his war on terrorism and re-claim any credibility he may have had. "Military officials also acknowledged Monday that U.S.-led forces have control of fewer than one-third of Baghdad's neighbourhoods despite thousands of extra troops nearly four months into a security crackdown. That assessment came as the U.S. death toll approached 3,500, with at least 15 American troops reported killed in the first three days of June. Lt.-Col. Scott Bleichwehl, a military spokesman for Baghdad operations, confirmed that a status report completed in May found that American and Iraqi forces were able to "protect the population" and "maintain physical influence over" only 146 of the 457 Baghdad neighbourhoods, while troops have either not begun operations aimed at rooting out insurgents or still face "resistance" in the others." http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=c823335b-d4fe-4943-b324-f954ebf1ec0f&k=44986 I agree with many others on this thread - its a way of saying, "If we weren't on the ball, you would all be blown away. You need us to protect you. We may have missed the mark on 9-11 but we're really up to speed these days." Yeah, right. We need your war mongering like a hole in the head. |
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05 Jun 07 - 02:31 AM (#2068823) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Sorcha Thank you Mick. I have rec'd communication from another clone as well. |
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05 Jun 07 - 03:03 AM (#2068834) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: GUEST,dianavan If you look at the posting history, I think we may assume that Dickey and tarheel might be one in the same. It seems they never post to the same thread and it also appears that they are both ruled by fear and motivated by hate. They are also competing for the lowest IQ. |
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05 Jun 07 - 05:38 AM (#2068892) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Keith A of Hertford Our terrorists had no problem obtaining funding or explosive. The money was gained locally from crime, mostly credit card fraud. The explosives were made from locally available materials. Is the only evidence the testimony of a dealer? I thought that there were recordings and evidence of extensive surveilance. If you believe that there is no real terrorist threat anyore, you are ignoring the evidence of the attacks in Britain and Spain, and the higher profile of US as a target. |
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05 Jun 07 - 01:53 PM (#2069271) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: GUEST,dianavan It looks as if these men were conspiring to commit an act of terrorism but that they did not have the support of any terrorist organization. In any event, the plot seems to have been ill-conceived. Here's a video discussing the possible outcome of their plan. http://edition.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/us/2007/06/02/meserve.jfk.happen.cnn |
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05 Jun 07 - 02:26 PM (#2069309) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Wolfgang I think we may assume that Dickey and tarheel might be one in the same. It seems they never post to the same thread (Dianavan) They look to me like very different people with similar political leanings. They have posted to the same thread and BTW it was a thread to which Dianavan has posted as well. Wolfgang |
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05 Jun 07 - 02:45 PM (#2069328) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Sorcha I do not discount the fact of terrorist existence, etc. but I refuse to tremble in my boots and lose sleep over this crap anymore. I firmly believe that our own goverment is manipulating us, or trying to with scare stories to get away with even more illegal acts, invasion of privacy, etc. |
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05 Jun 07 - 08:28 PM (#2069595) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: GUEST,282RA >>Our terrorists had no problem obtaining funding or explosive. The money was gained locally from crime, mostly credit card fraud. The explosives were made from locally available materials. Is the only evidence the testimony of a dealer?<< Yes. Otherwise, why would they need his testimony. He's about as questionable a witness as one could have. It's ridiculous and unbelievably hypocritical of the gov't to rely on such testimony when they waste $30 billion a year on their little war on drugs--which is apparently trumped by the one on terror--both of which have succeeded in only making each problem worse if not outright creating it. >>I thought that there were recordings and evidence of extensive surveilance.<< Sure. That's why they're relying on a convicted drug dealer as their informant--because they have so much evidence. >>If you believe that there is no real terrorist threat anyore, you are ignoring the evidence of the attacks in Britain and Spain, and the higher profile of US as a target.<< There never was a terrorist threat. There never has been and there never will be. All we have are a handful of incidents--overall inconsequential to our continued survival and comfort level. No threat to us at all. There is virtually no chance of a terrorist attack going down the US. Even the attacks on the WTC were actually intended to disrupt what one isolated group saw as the international Jewish financial empire. But there simply can't be extended guerilla warfare over here--terrorist groups don't have time, money or people for that. Look what fighting overseas is doing to us, for god's sake! It is simply NOT going to happen and it isn't going to happen in Europe either. An incident here and there but certainly nothing like what's going on in the Middle East. They are able to carry on with their war in the Middle East because it's in their backyard. Anyone who thinks that a million terrorists are going to fllod America and Europe and drown us in chaos and bloodshed is an amazing coward and an even more amazing idiot. |
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06 Jun 07 - 03:51 AM (#2069761) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: GUEST,dianavan Thanks for clearing that up, Wolfgang. Sorcha, your comment is short, sweet and to the point. They are not only controlling their citizenry with fear, they sensationalize insignificant arrests so that we actually think they are trying to protect us. Its also a way of saying, "Hey, look over there!" It a diversion and takes up space on the front page so they can hide their crimes and incompetence. |
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06 Jun 07 - 04:17 AM (#2069776) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Keith A of Hertford 282, why do you keep saying that they are RELYING on the dealers evidence, when they clearly have other evidence as well? No such thing as a terrorist threat, just isolated incidents? Well yes. Each attack is an isolated incident. The pattern is for a group or cell working largely independently to carry out random acts of mass mrder. And that is the threat, not Middle East style chaos. |
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06 Jun 07 - 08:47 AM (#2069900) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Grab Problem with this whole militant thing is that it assumes there's one guiding intelligence running it. There isn't. Yes, 9/11 was the work of people who'd had contact with al-Qaeda in Afghanistan. But London? Disaffected locals working on their own. Spain? Disaffected locals working on their own. This one? Disaffected locals working on their own. That's why I agree with 282RA - all these *are* isolated incidents. But there *is* a terrorist threat. What have all these got in common? Answer: disaffected Muslims who have grievances over what's been done to Muslim countries by the US and the West in general, and who also have grievances against the treatment of Muslims in the US and West in general. Is the answer to impose more sanctions on Muslim countries and put more restrictions on resident Muslims? For me, that seems stupid. You don't prevent this by cracking down harder on Muslims, you prevent it by dealing with their grievances. To put the same question another way, was the best response to the IRA to send out the B Specials/UDR/RUC to intimidate Catholics? Or was it brokering deals that would give Catholics a say, and dismantling the apparatus that institutionalised the violence against Catholics? And in the US, was the best response to the Black Panthers to send the police out on the streets and fire-hose black protestors? Or was it to give blacks equal access to schools, jobs and social environment, and prevent discrimination on the basis of colour? The simple fact is that once someone hates you, you can't stop them taking a swing at you, and that's as true for individuals as for countries. But you can usually stop them hating you in the first place by not doing things that'll piss them off. Graham. |
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06 Jun 07 - 09:22 AM (#2069922) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: The Fooles Troupe "But you can usually stop them hating you in the first place by not doing things that'll piss them off." Which is exactly why i suspect that many people internationally will continue to hate the US for a very long time.... |
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06 Jun 07 - 09:44 AM (#2069937) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Kipp I think that we here in the US have a different culture as does the west for that matter.,and our culture is one of the dominate ones right now. Yet we can not only say that it is the Bush administration we we have many different things going on as does the the countries of Europe. our popular music gay rights more freedom for women the list goes on and on. That also is why we the Us is refered to as the Great Satan the freedoms that we hold dearly is considered a threat to some if not most forms of Islam. So it is not only or polotics it is our why of life. I think that it is for that reason most of all Islam is a very conserative religion and the notion of freedom a thing that we hold very dearly and is at the core of what makes or coutry work Kipp |
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06 Jun 07 - 12:28 PM (#2070036) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: GUEST,dianavan Well said, Graham. Yes, the west is a different culture, Kipp. You are right when you our freedoms threaten their way of life. The problem is that we have no right to impose our culture on those living in the Middle East and we have no right to steal their resources. |
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06 Jun 07 - 07:42 PM (#2070354) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Grab I'm not convinced that freedoms threaten anyone's way of life. Iraq for all its failings managed to let women go around without full headscarves, drive cars and hold down jobs; Turkey and Egypt likewise; and this hasn't noticeably led to extra immorality there. Islam isn't a conservative religion in itself - the problem is that many *countries* in which Islam is the primary religion are conservative countries, and interpretation of religion is used as the means of control. We can't impose our culture - but we can support self-determination (vocally or otherwise) when the people of those countries decide they've had enough of it. The problem is that the very concept of self-determination can be seen as a threat. That's a standard government problem though, and it's not specific to Islamic countries - most countries' governments today have been founded after some kind of popular protest against the previous rulers, and most of them celebrate that revolution whilst simultaneously saying that popular protests against the current rule are immoral and evil. Such is government. :-/ The problem is though, we claim we celebrate freedom of religion, and then we get front-page newspaper articles about "mad mullahs", or a devout religious family who do nothing but help their neighbours being dragged from their house and shot by the police. Similarly we claim we don't discriminate, and then more black and Asian men are stopped on suss. Does not compute. Graham. |
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06 Jun 07 - 08:05 PM (#2070367) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: GUEST,mg OK..don't bother saying I hate Muslims because I have stated many times my fondness for the ones I have met. I hope to travel to various areas such as Palestine and Jordan etc. There is a threat. Part of it is from parts of the Muslim world. It is real. But, put this in your pipes and smoke it..people do not have to hate us in order to do us harm. The Mafia does not necessarily hate us. It might, but that is not what drives them. The Columbian drug lords probably don't hate us and our way of life and our drug-addicted and promiscous teenagers. Probably some WWII Nazis are still alive and well and dreaming of the day. People do not have to hate us to want to take what we have. Making them love us probably is not going to work. Now, this is not just my idea, although I certainly have it..but all these groups and many more you can think of are going to join forces..and essentially probably have. All the bad guys and gals in the world sooner or later meet up. So there you have it. Eternal vigilance or kiss it goodbye. I think many of you have made your choice and past a certain tipping point the job of protecting America and others just can't be done. So I am at the kiss it goodbye stage. Might not have to but that is where I would put my money. Has nothing to do with racism, hating Muslims, whatever. There are opportunists in the world and they will take advantage of weaknesses. It doesn't matter who they are. Get rid of one group and others will pop up. And hatefullness is hatefullness no matter who it is expressed against. mg |
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16 Jun 07 - 11:44 AM (#2078666) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Keith A of Hertford http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6755797.stm This is about a terror trial just finished here. There was a US dimension but I do not know how much coverage it got . |
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17 Jun 07 - 03:09 AM (#2079075) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Teribus "The problem is that we have no right to impose our culture on those living in the Middle East and we have no right to steal their resources." - dianavan, 06 Jun 07 - 12:28 PM. I do not believe that "we" are attempting to do either anywhere. I have asked dianavan, time and time again exactly how one "steals their resources". Not once has there been any example or description of method or means. Dianavan, the US, or more correctly the companies purchasing oil/gas for import to the US pays market price for it, exactly the same as everybody else, so are they too guilty of "stealing their resources"? |
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17 Jun 07 - 11:10 PM (#2079633) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Riginslinger "I do not believe that "we" are attempting to do either anywhere. I have asked dianavan, time and time again exactly how one "steals their resources". Not once has there been any example or description of method or means. Dianavan, the US, or more correctly the companies purchasing oil/gas for import to the US pays market price for it, exactly the same as everybody else, so are they too guilty of "stealing their resources"?" It seems to me that the balance of power has shifted so far to the advantage of capital that nothing else even matters. The players in the petroleum game are so few and so huge that they can manipulate the markets on both ends. They ensure the lowest price for crude through monopolistic practices, and they ensure the highest prices for retail products through monopolistic practices. The developing countries with the resources take it in the shorts, and the working stiff in the developed countries takes it in the shorts. The circle will become complete when Exxon and British Petroleum start selling shorts. |
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18 Jun 07 - 01:15 AM (#2079664) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Teribus "They ensure the lowest price for crude through monopolistic practices, and they ensure the highest prices for retail products through monopolistic practices." OK, "They ensure the lowest price for crude through monopolistic practices" Now explain to us how they do that, i.e. ensure lowest prices for crude. Is $70+ a barrel the "lowest price for crude"? Or does that just happen to be the market rate? What price do you think they would prefer it to be and then tell us all why through "monopolistic practices" they can't force the price of supply down to meet that. |
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18 Jun 07 - 01:00 PM (#2080079) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Riginslinger Teribus - you're talking about the price of crude on the world market. What do you think the poor people of Sudan get for it? |
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18 Jun 07 - 04:23 PM (#2080253) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: jeffp What do you mean by "the poor people of Sudan"? Do you mean the population of Sudan? Characterized as "poor." Or do you mean just the poor section of the population? Who owns the oil? Is it owned by the government? Or is it owned by individuals? Who gets paid for the oil? Do you know the answers to any of these questions? |
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18 Jun 07 - 04:33 PM (#2080258) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: 282RA >>What do you mean by "the poor people of Sudan"?<< He means the rich prople of Sudan, you idiot, what do you think he means? |
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18 Jun 07 - 04:41 PM (#2080265) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: jeffp The phrase can be interpreted in at least two ways, as stated in my post. Try to remain civil, if you can. |
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18 Jun 07 - 04:45 PM (#2080272) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Riginslinger I'm talking about that portion of the Sudan population who, if they had their fair share of the proceeds would buy some new shoes and something to eat for diner. They might even opt for some clean drinking water and sanitary conditions to live in. |
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18 Jun 07 - 04:53 PM (#2080281) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: jeffp So you believe that all of the population of Sudan are entitled to the proceeds of the oil sales? What percentage of the proceeds? Is the oil in the ground owned by the people as a whole? Or is it owned by individuals? I assume that if the oil is nationalized, then the proceeds go to the government, which is then responsible for what happens to it. I seriously doubt that the western oil companies have anything to do with what happens to it after they pay it. If the oil is owned by individuals, as it is in the US in most cases (I'm using individuals in the broad sense to include corporate entities), then those individuals will do what they wish with the proceeds, as mineral rights owners do here. This, again, is not under the control of the oil companies. I don't know the status of the oil in the ground in Sudan. I wouldn't be surprised if it was all owned by the government and that oil revenues were mostly lost to official corruption. However, I don't really see what the oil companies that buy the oil can do about it. Any ideas? |
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18 Jun 07 - 05:23 PM (#2080309) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Riginslinger jeffp - In all honesty, I don't have any idea, but I would offer the suggestion that the resources of the country should be going to help the people who live there. I think you are probably right that corrupt leaders are taking the money for themselves. What the oil companies could do would be to quit buying off the corrupt leaders, but that would need to be brokered by somebody. If Exxon quit doing it and BP refused to, it would only hurt Exxon. I guess all I can offer is, it seems like something is wrong there, I don't know how to fix it. |
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19 Jun 07 - 07:58 AM (#2080917) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: jeffp You can't get the oil without paying the owners. If that's the government, that's who you pay. Or you go without. It's easy to say what should happen. Not so easy to make it happen. |
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19 Jun 07 - 09:12 AM (#2080976) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Riginslinger "The owner's" it seems, are whoever happens to be in the neighborhood with the most money to buy the security forces necessary to take and hold the oil. |
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19 Jun 07 - 05:56 PM (#2081488) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Teribus In most cases the mineral rights are owned by the State irrespective of who owns the land. Under normal circumstances the land owner is recompensed for any disruption caused by exploration and extraction/production. This can be paid by a lump sum payment, straightforward rent or by royalty payments paid per barrel. The State that owns the oil does not necessarily have the money or the expertise to explore or extract the oil, so it sells a licence to "the-big-bad-oil-company". Now the oil company does not own the oil, but it pays for the exploration effort, it pays for the installation of the wellhead structures, blow-out preventers and pielines to extract and transport the oil. In return for all this investment the Government who still owns the oil gives the oil company a share of the proceeds. The State can revoke the oil company's licence at any time. That is basically why you can't steal anybody's oil, because by and large until the reservoir's exhausted, you can't take it anywhere. If you extract it you sell it on a world market, for the market price. Now in the case of Darfur, the Sudanese Government and their proxy agents the Janjaweed Militia are trying to drive the locals off the land in order that they do not have to compensate them, and/or share the wealth of the province. Nothing to do with "big-bad-oil-companies" sharing out anything. |
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19 Jun 07 - 06:05 PM (#2081501) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Riginslinger "Nothing to do with "big-bad-oil-companies" sharing out anything." Unless they're bankrolling the Janjaweed Militia. |
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20 Jun 07 - 12:19 AM (#2081819) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Teribus "Unless they're bankrolling the Janjaweed Militia." I believe that they are being sponsored solely by the Sudanese Government. The oil companies in question here are mainly Chinese, Indian, Malaysian and French. |
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21 Jun 07 - 08:42 AM (#2082999) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Riginslinger Okay, let me make sure I've got this straight: The foreign oil companies are bankrolling the Sudanese Government; the Sudanese Government is backing the Janjaweed Militia, while the Janjaweed Militia is taking action to assure the oil companies a cheap supply of crude. Subsequently, a plumber in Hoboken is able to fill up his Hummer with fuel substantially below what the market price would be if all of the above wasn't happening, and the only folks who are taking it in the shorts are the people who owned the oil in the first place. Does that about cover it? |
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21 Jun 07 - 10:06 AM (#2083057) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Teribus How about an answer to my questions Riginslinger? "They ensure the lowest price for crude through monopolistic practices, and they ensure the highest prices for retail products through monopolistic practices." - Riginslinger Now explain to us how they do that, i.e. ensure lowest prices for crude. Is $70+ a barrel the "lowest price for crude"? Or does that just happen to be the market rate? What price do you think they would prefer it to be and then tell us all why through "monopolistic practices" they can't force the price of supply down to meet that. Oh, by the bye, who said anything about foreign oil companies bankrolling the Sudanese Government? |
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21 Jun 07 - 01:20 PM (#2083222) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Riginslinger "Is $70+ a barrel the "lowest price for crude"?" Of course not. That's what they're selling to for to the refiners. They aren't telling us what they are stealing it from the Sudanese for. |
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21 Jun 07 - 05:12 PM (#2083415) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Riginslinger "Oh, by the bye, who said anything about foreign oil companies bankrolling the Sudanese Government?" That's just the kind of thing oil companies do, isn't it? |
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21 Jun 07 - 05:37 PM (#2083449) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: pirandello Returning briefly to the topic; the terrorist's strategy is the instilling of 'terror', of fear, of the anticipation of violent attack; death is infrequently the motive and merely a by-product. In this the Moslem fundamentalist terrorist is succeeding and winning. He is succeeding in bleeding the world's most powerful nation of billions upon billions of dollars, in tying up armies all over the planet and with very little expense to himself in either manpower or currency. |
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21 Jun 07 - 06:56 PM (#2083518) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Riginslinger "He is succeeding in bleeding the world's most powerful nation of billions upon billions of dollars, in tying up armies all over the planet and with very little expense to himself in either manpower or currency." pirandello - That's true, but it's mainly true because western governments are willing to commit troops and spend money when there's not much of anything to be gained by it. |
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21 Jun 07 - 10:53 PM (#2083668) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: GUEST,dianavan Yes, the Muslim fanatics are winning the war on terrorism because they are bleeding the treasury of the U.S., depleting the troops and the number of terrorists are increasing. The twin towers were symbolic of 'tearing down' the financial structure. |
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22 Jun 07 - 10:23 AM (#2084005) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Riginslinger I quess the question that needs to be asked is: why is the American government stupid enough to participate? |
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23 Jun 07 - 01:06 AM (#2084605) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: GUEST,dianavan If you are a neo-con there is plenty to be gained. All of the old structures need to be torn down before there can be a new world order. The Nazi knew all about this. |
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23 Jun 07 - 10:09 AM (#2084825) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Riginslinger And the neo-cons want to use American resources for the benefit of Israel, right? |
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23 Jun 07 - 02:44 PM (#2084998) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: GUEST,dianavan In the new world order, whether you are Israeli or American makes absolutely no difference to the neo-cons. |
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23 Jun 07 - 10:08 PM (#2085269) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Riginslinger Okaaay! I think that's what I meant to say. So how would we expect the Palestinians to react to that? |
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24 Jun 07 - 02:25 AM (#2085361) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: GUEST,dianavan Since the Palestinians have been bearing the brunt of the new world order since post world war II, I would guess that the Palestinians would react just as the Americans and Israelis would react if they were impoverished and living in tents. |
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24 Jun 07 - 09:30 AM (#2085524) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Riginslinger Do you see the Middle East as the center of the conflict brought about by the new world order, or do you think it is just one of many? |
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24 Jun 07 - 10:21 PM (#2086046) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: GUEST,dianavan I do see the conflict in the Middle East as a means of creating a new world order. |
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25 Jun 07 - 11:06 AM (#2086466) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Riginslinger dianavan - Yes, I think you're right. A number of people seem not to want to admit to the possibility of this happening, however. Or maybe they think the new-world-order would be an improvement over what we have (had?). |
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29 Jun 07 - 11:24 AM (#2090091) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Keith A of Hertford There was a large attempted bomb attack in London last night. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6252276.stm |
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29 Jun 07 - 02:25 PM (#2090247) Subject: RE: Kennedy Airport Story From: Riginslinger Dick Cheney should not have provoked them. |