|
29 Jun 07 - 06:31 PM (#2090443) Subject: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Bobert Well, well, well... Just when we thought that ol' Jim was long dead seems that the Robert's Court has resurrented him with their decision that intergration is just way too much a bother... Yeah, some will argue that it ain't all that bad but ***it is*** all that bad... Yesterday's 5-4 ruling will long be seen as the rulin' when some Americans gave up the struggle to desegregate themselves... This ruling will be used in federal courts all over the country that have been packed with right wing ideologe activist judges who are just licking their chops to turn the clock back... Make no mistake about this... Tghis isn't moving our country forward... This is like a quarterback fumbling the ball on purpose... This is terrible and makes me ashamed for my country... Yeah, people wanted Earl Warren impeached but when we look at the Warren Court, which was the last of the true activist courts in modern time, the decisions made our country fairer and more compassionate... This Roberts Court is the exact opposite... Impeach John Roberts... BObert |
|
29 Jun 07 - 06:34 PM (#2090447) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Mrrzy I didn't know he left... |
|
29 Jun 07 - 06:35 PM (#2090450) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Rapparee Eisenhower appointed Earl Warren to be Supreme Supreme because he thought Warren would be conservative. |
|
29 Jun 07 - 06:40 PM (#2090455) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: McGrath of Harlow A link to the relevant story would be helpful. |
|
29 Jun 07 - 06:43 PM (#2090457) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Peace Link to story. |
|
29 Jun 07 - 06:45 PM (#2090459) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Bill D here's one link |
|
29 Jun 07 - 06:58 PM (#2090465) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Bill D This decision is not as clear & simplistic as some would have you believe. Yes, it sure DOES reverse older rulings which mandated certain kinds of integration, but a lot of the practical attempts to make those mandates work were...ummm....less than successful. We are struggling against human nature and prejudice here, as well as the expense and practicality of controlling BOTH school requirements and people's willingness to associate. (don't tell me they DIDN'T de facto attempt to do that). This court decision is BOTH a setback and an opportunity to craft some legislation which accomplishes what is needed - without thousands of busses and complex bureaucracies. |
|
29 Jun 07 - 07:26 PM (#2090478) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Bobert Problem is, Bill, that this Court is so activist and the legislative branch is so dysfunctional that the reality is that the "opportunities" you amy see are not politically achievable... I can't begin to see any good in this decision... Ahhhhh, how can we fight segregation if "race" cannot be a factor??? That's like askin' a doctor what's wrong with you if he's not allowed to perform any tests or ask you any questions about how you feel??? Are you suggesting, my friend, that this ruling will create a an atmosphere for greater "success" in desegregation??? If so, please explain the in's and outs of your theory 'cause, fir the life of this ol' hillbilly, I'm having a hard time getting my head wrapped around much other than angry white men standing in school house doors... Bobert |
|
29 Jun 07 - 07:29 PM (#2090479) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: wysiwyg Pretty inflammatory thread title. The actual situation is more complex (and more deserving of careful, calm, rational thought) than the thread title reflects, or prompts. ~S~ |
|
29 Jun 07 - 07:40 PM (#2090490) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Donuel The Robert's court also said that big corporations can fix minimum prices for their products. If a store discounted below that fixed price they could be sued big time. If consumers get a discount below the new price fixes they may also be breaking the law. Justice Kennedy is roaring mad at Roberts right now. |
|
29 Jun 07 - 07:55 PM (#2090500) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Bill D "Are you suggesting, my friend, that this ruling will create a an atmosphere for greater "success" in desegregation???" No...I'm not saying that....I flatly don't know. I DO know that after all these years of having "Brown v. BOE" in place, there were still ways around it, and implementation was costing lots of $$$ and getting very mixed results. You oughta know that *I* sure do want to see discrimination reduced and fairness made 'fair' for everyone....I just am finding it harder to be sure what IS fair as society changes these days. NO law seems to cover all the bases. I'm not happy with what the obviously newly moved-to-the-right court has done, but I see what gave 'em the opening. Maybe in 18 months we can take another run at crafting better rules. |
|
29 Jun 07 - 07:59 PM (#2090503) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Bobert Well, WYSuzie, I meant it to inflame... There are times when folks have to get beyond taking crap... The progressive/moderates of this country have been taking crap for 30 years now... Yeah, the right wing killed off the progressive movement by assasination of our leaders in the 60's... Yeah, it would be nice if we could "all just get along" and we could if we would *all* just adopt the corporatist/racist doctrine which is racist and greedy... But after a week of seeing 50 years of progress on 1st ammendment and 13th ammendment rights get run thru the shredder there isn't a **true*** progressive in this country who isn't really pissed off... What I am saying is being said all over this country tonight... Check out Eugene Robinson's op-ed in the Post today and you'll find that what I've said is purdy mild in comparasion... Bobert |
|
29 Jun 07 - 08:04 PM (#2090508) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Bobert Bill, Agreed, kinda... The problem is that the legislative branch ahs been trivialized... The prsident, and now his judical buddies, have usurpted the power... Congress tried to craft a better way to control the $$$ in politic with the McCain-Feingold legislation... Congress spent months debating and compromising and came out with a product... Then, in a single fowl swoop, 5 idealoques, all appointed by Republican laid waste to the thousands of hours that some 600 duely elected representatives had produced... I don't see the sliver lining here... But yer still my bud... Bobert |
|
29 Jun 07 - 08:33 PM (#2090525) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Q (Frank Staplin) WYSIWYG has understated the situation by calling it complex. Public school choice plans did much to weaken the public school system. An unintentional result was the growth of many charter and faith-based schools, leading to new kinds of segregation. The growth of charter and faith-based schools owe much to the old ruling. In some areas, fewer children attend public schools than the 'pay' schools, and public money is going to the pay schools on the basis of numbers of students. A number of cities, including New Orleans, have more 'other' than public school students. Separate boys and girls schools are becoming popular again. The result is that, with fewer students and less money, public school programs are much diminished. Calgary in (Ha, ha) prejudice-free Canada now has Muslim, Jewish, charter, and Christian-religion-based schools of all stripes receiving their shares of the tax money, based on number of students in each school. Catholic ('separate') and public ('other') schools in Canada have long separated Catholic and Protestant students but now the latter are being separated as well. Of course, here in Calgary the well-to-do and those looking for the best schooling for their kids for some time have had two or three private schools with restricted admissions. Some students are sent down east. Small towns and rural areas have always had their segregated separate and public schools, but are much less affected by the other divisions of the cities. An interesting situation has developed in Atlanta where there are now wealthy gated African-American in addition to white communities, and the charter (called something else in the States but I can't think of it) schools are performing the function of keeping children with their proper peers. I don't know the answer, but to me, it seems that kids are being separated from each other, as they always have, by the drive of their parents to keep them with their own kind. The 'real' segregation. The old ruling had only re-inforced that bent. |
|
29 Jun 07 - 08:42 PM (#2090531) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Q (Frank Staplin) I should also mention that in Calgary, the public schools now have many immigrant and ESL (English as second language) students, making teaching very complex. This has added to the desirability, in the minds of parents, of keeping their kids out of public schools, at least below high-school level. Another problem is the difficulty of absorbing children with some learning disabilities into the classroom. This also has caused difficulties. |
|
29 Jun 07 - 08:45 PM (#2090533) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Peace True, Q. Integrating special needs kids has caused great problems. Of course, if the government funded the kids properly . . . . |
|
29 Jun 07 - 08:46 PM (#2090534) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Bobert Yeah, Q, this is what happens when a country takes it's eye off the ball... Yes, it is complex and folks have figured out how to keep their kids from having to go to school with kids of another race... This ruling will go along way toward making it even easier for these parents to keep their kids from having to go to school with kids of another race... B~ |
|
29 Jun 07 - 10:33 PM (#2090594) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Race has become less important than mindset- which is determined by beliefs and shared interests, both social and religious. Income is a factor in determining interests. But I can't deny that it isn't an important force in much of the world. In this case, I think legislation exacerbates the problem. Home schooling, allowed here in Alberta, and also growing in the States at the expense of the public system, is leading some kids into very peculiar beliefs indeed. Nothing wrong with the old tutor system, if the material covered in broad, but some parents ideas of education outside of the basic 3-R's is limited to their own very narrow mindset. |
|
29 Jun 07 - 10:54 PM (#2090603) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Q (Frank Staplin) For McGrath and others, here is the news story from the New York Times. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/29/washington/29scotus.html?ref=todayspaper Supreme Court |
|
30 Jun 07 - 12:30 AM (#2090645) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: artbrooks There is a lot a rhetoric about this, but it may be instructive to read the decision itself. I don't have a lot of faith in the ability of this particular bunch of black robes to come down anywhere near the center on anything, but what they actually said is that deciding what school children should attend based only on their race is a violation of the equal rights clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. What the childrens' families were arguing is that it is better for the child to go to a neighborhood school (Kentucky case) or to their preferred high school (Seattle case) rather than be assigned to another school because the one that they preferred, and to which they would be otherwise assigned, was over quota for a particular racial group. IMHO, if a city/state is legally given the authority to decide that black kids should go to a particular school because there aren't enough children of color there, or that white kids should attend a school because there are too many black kids there, than they have an equal right to decide that all black or white kids should go to a particular school. George Wallace would have loved it. |
|
30 Jun 07 - 01:27 PM (#2090981) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Riginslinger "Home schooling, allowed here in Alberta, and also growing in the States at the expense of the public system, is leading some kids into very peculiar beliefs indeed. Nothing wrong with the old tutor system, if the material covered in broad, but some parents ideas of education outside of the basic 3-R's is limited to their own very narrow mindset." Q - I see this as a huge problem. Parents imput is very important in education to be sure, but at some point there has to be an effort to make sure everyone has some general understanding. We now have a university that caters only (or maybe mostly) to home schooled kids. When you see them on television, it's like they grew up on some other planet. |
|
30 Jun 07 - 02:30 PM (#2091019) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Riginslinger, I agree. Kids need interaction with other kids and a broad range of contacts. On reflection, tutoring is useful as an adjunct, or, in special cases. Of the latter, I am thinking of musical or others of genius level who need special schooling and guidance. But interaction with people is just as necessary for them, otherwise they can never perform properly in public or on the job. |
|
30 Jun 07 - 08:55 PM (#2091261) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Azizi Well, one thing I gotta say, Clarence Thomas' got a lot of nerve. Check out this quote from the link that Bruce posted: "Thomas took a harder stance against the choice plans: "Simply putting students together under the same roof does not necessarily mean that the students will learn together or even interact," he said. "Furthermore, it is unclear whether increased interracial contact improves racial attitudes and relations." -snip- So how much interracial contact does Thomas have being the sole spook that sits by the door? |
|
30 Jun 07 - 09:13 PM (#2091277) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Bobert Clarance Thomas is a disgrace to mankind... He woukld roll his own mother under the bus... He makes Uncle Tom look like a flaming revolutioary... Might of fact, I am embarrassed for Clarence Thomas seein' as he has been consistently used by the white power structure as some kind of representative for the black community... He is a bad joke... He is boderline retarded and nuthin' but a court jester... He is a disgrace to the black community... There are millions of black folks with high school diplomas that are smarter than Clarence Thomas... Thergood Marshall had more intellegece in his fingernail clippings that Clarence Thomas has in his entire body... He is the least qualified Supreme Court jstice in the history of our country... Impeach him too along with that lieing sack of crap, Roberts... Neither belongs on this court... One is brain dead and the other an ideologue... Might of fact, Scalia is so prejudiced that he doesn't belong either... He has his mind made up before the arguments... That is not what good judges do.... Bobert |
|
30 Jun 07 - 09:27 PM (#2091283) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Azizi Btw, Bobert. I like your title {though I keep wantin to put an apostraphe in it so it reads "Jim Crow's Back in Town"}. But I agree with Mrrzy that Jim Crow never left. I also agree with folks on this thread who have said that this is a complicated subject. I know that diversity is important and that it can add to a quality education. With regard to public education in the USA, I'd love to see MUCH more attention given to a better plan to fund public schools than using the tax base of the community-since that screws poor children regardless of their race/ethnicity. I'd also love to see MUCH more attention given to ensuring that the curriculum in public schools is cultural competent and is not just a tourist, sometimey approach to non-Eurocentric history, cultures, and current events like it appears to be now in most schools. And I'd love to see teacher's colleges and continuing education programs pay more than lip serve to this cultural competency curriculum so that they may actually know what they are supposed to be teaching and role modeling. I'd love to see "No Child Left Behind" and other "teaching to the test" programs scratched. In addition, I'd love to see MUCH more attention given to eradicating institutional racism in employment opportunities, the health care system, housing, public welfare, child welfare, mental health system, drug & alcohol system, public transportation, juvenile justice, and criminal justice systems. I'd also LOVE to see more culturally competent arts and other cultural programs and more recreational programs available for and accessible to children, and teens, and adults. Furthermore, I'd love to see more people who have "made it" working with children & youth who are in danger of not making it and/or working to address the real systems dysfunction that exist across the board in this nation. All of these action steps impact whether all children and teens-regardless of race/ethnicity, or economic class get a quality education. And all of these action steps should be doable in the richest nation in the world. |
|
30 Jun 07 - 09:58 PM (#2091295) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Hi, Azizi! Not quite sure what you mean. Please expand. I think there is much truth in the statement by Thomas. Here in 'multicultural' Canada, where I am now, public schools have been much diminished as many parents have taken their children out of 'contact' situations. This has no bearing, however, on the integration problems in the United States. If the contact is not handled correctly, it can lead to disruption of the system. My sole example from the States is Decatur, Georgia, because it is the only one in which I knew some of the participants. Decatur was a small town on the margins of metro Atlanta, nearly all white middle class demographics. Before busing, the high school was known for the quality of its work. Teaching staff included a few well-qualified African-American teachers had been added to the staff. The library was top quality, teachers and administrators having worked to build it up with the help of a trained library scientist (a sister-inlaw of mine). The powers that be demanded integration of African-American students from metro Atlanta into the system to provide 'balance' and 'contact.' The metro Black' kids were bused into Decatur. The school fell apart. Students spoke different languages, although called English. Their understanding of social interaction was mutually shocking to both groups. Teachers had no training or help and could not cope with the new charges. The library was destroyed. I remember my sister-inlaw's upset, to put it mildly. Of course, the white students for the most part left and were enrolled in private facilities. Decatur still has 'political' identity although, being a part of metro Atlanta, its demographics have changed considerably. I am sure similar case histories influenced Justice Thomas and his collegues of the majority decision. I am sure that the situation in much of the northeast and northern midwest, with different culture, would have been better handled. The busing of students into different neighborhoods is a sore issue in the south and western cities, and many applaud the decision. In the southwest, the problem was entirely different; the large Latino group complicated matters and the full impact of Court decisions made in far-off Washington was not felt. |
|
30 Jun 07 - 10:00 PM (#2091296) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Bobert Yeah, Mizzi... I agree with you 100%... "No Child Left Behind" is a cruel joke palyed mostly on predominaently balck schools in inner cities... Like these schools are supposed to correct a very screwed up social system??? And level the playing field between the haves and theve-nots??? Sick!!! No, "No Child Left Behind" is nuthin' put a punitive sysytem that allows for grater segregattion thru charter schools and tuition vouchers which don't de-segregate but re-segregate... It teaches rote memory as opposed to critical thinking... It is void of the arts... It is void of much of what it takes for adults to be informed and vote responsibly... It is a charade with a fancy name.... What we need for the future our our country is more diversity and more creativity, both of which the recent Supreme Court ruling and "No Child" set back decades... Maybe a century... And, yeah, I know that Jim Crow has never been dead... I live in the South and I know what is in the hearts of way too many white people and it's "hatred"... What they hate is their own miserable predictaments but "Boss Hog" has convinced them that the reason that they are so miserable is because of balck people... And these folks don't have the crityical thinking skills to see that they are being used like pawns... Just as Clarence Thmas is being used as a pawn... I certainly hope and pray that we win the next revulotuion 'cause the US is running out of time... B~ |
|
30 Jun 07 - 10:11 PM (#2091302) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Azizi Here's an article about the USA's poor educational system {pun intended] and its impact on other systems in the USA: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/19/Dobbs.June20/index.html Dobbs: A legacy in search of a president POSTED: 8:32 a.m. EDT, June 20, 2007 Here's an excerpt from that article: "...The Education Week report shows Detroit's public high schools will graduate only 25 percent of their students. Cleveland, Ohio, and Baltimore, Maryland, will graduate less than 35 percent; Dallas, Texas, New York and Los Angeles, California, about 45 percent. In fact, 10 of our nation's biggest cities will graduate fewer than half their students. This is nothing less than a national crisis. Christopher Swanson, director of the Editorial Projects in Education Research Center and supervisor of that national dropout rate report says: "I think that really speaks to the challenge of getting students to graduate from high school at a time where it's more important than it's ever been...to provide opportunities for our young people to have a successful career and for the United States in general to be competitive in the world." The Alliance for Excellent Education estimates that each high school dropout earns about $260,000 less than a high school graduate over his or her lifetime. The Alliance also reports that dropouts not only earn less money but also drain state and federal budgets through their dependence on social and welfare programs. Those students who drop out make up nearly half the heads of households on welfare, and they constitute almost half of our prison population as well. The cost to our society is overwhelming. But even our students who are graduating are often not receiving the education they deserve. In low-income schools, students have less than a 50 percent chance of being taught by a mathematics or science teacher who holds a degree in the subject he or she teaches, according to the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics. This explains at least in part why less than a third of our fourth-grade and eighth-grade students performed at or above a proficient level in math, and why American 15-year-olds fall below the international average in mathematics literacy and problem-solving in the Program for International Student Assessment". |
|
30 Jun 07 - 10:21 PM (#2091306) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Peace There are many factors that influence results of the PISA. For example, Japanese kids do very well in their math scores; however, what is not taken into account is the fact they also attend school for more hours than most North American kids. |
|
30 Jun 07 - 10:40 PM (#2091316) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Azizi Here's two other perspectives on this subject: More On Desegregation/Resegregation Options ; By George E. Curry The Curry Report for "Black New Yorkers For Educational Excellence" "...schools in the South and Border states among the most desegregated in the nation. On the other hand, schools in New York, Illinois, California and Michigan were the most segregated, with the average Black students attending schools that had less than a quarter of students who were White. Unlike the 1960s, school desegregation is no longer a Black/White paradigm. Latinos are the fastest- growing group in the U.S. and ... "Latino segregation is higher than black segregation on some measures in the South and West," the Harvard study said. "In the West, where Latinos are concentrated, 81 percent of Latinos are in schools with nonwhite majorities, followed by 78 percent in the Northeast and South." Schools are a preview of what is to come. "Since the 2000 Census a great deal has been written about the demographic transformation underway in many American communities as the U.S. moves toward the day when citizens of European background will no longer be the majority, but the changes are much more rapid and dramatic in the school age population," the report stated. Although the White population in the U.S. is not projected to dwindle to 50 percent until 2050, that ratio has already been reached in many schools systems... But no one should be confused about why African- Americans sought to enroll in desegregated schools. "There is no evidence that the long struggle of civil rights groups to end segregation was only motivated by a desire to have minority children sit next to white children," the Harvard report stated. "There was a strong belief that predominantly white schools offered better opportunities on many levels..." It is disturbing that at a time when the U.S. is undergoing a major demographic transition, few high-ranking officials have publicly voiced the need for all groups to prepare to live in a fast-approaching multi-cultural society in which Whites will be in a minority and no group will constitute a majority"... ** http://www.cal.org/resources/Digest/0009programs.html December 2000 "Programs That Prepare Teachers to Work Effectively With Students Learning English" Josué M. González and Linda Darling-Hammond Introductory statement: "Schools and teacher education programs have begun to rethink preservice and inservice professional development to take into account the need for teachers to work effectively with students learning English. New approaches to teacher education are based on the belief that English language learners' access to challenging content can be enhanced through teaching strategies that provide multiple pathways to the understanding of language and content. Because students must use language to acquire academic content in mainstream classes, second language teaching must be integrated with the social, cultural, and political contexts of language use. This digest provides a summary of some of the problems associated with traditional teacher education and describes preservice and inservice programs that prepare teachers to work effectively with English language learners". |
|
30 Jun 07 - 10:52 PM (#2091321) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Peace And yet again there are other considerations. Most teachers ARE teachers because they were able to 'pss' the exams and move on into post-secondary institutions to receive the paper qualifications needed to teach. We have produced countless teachers who teach subjects. Really, we need teachers who teach kids. Howard Gardener's excellent research into multiple intelligences is a case in point. Not all kids learn the same way. We give lip service to believing that, but the truth is that not many schools have the economic 'oomph' to support it. In Alberta, special needs kids are sorely under-funded, and not too many school divisions actually fund gifted and talented programs because the cost is not supported by government--despite the requirement being part of the Education Act in this province. We have known for decades that the optimum learing ratio is 17 to 1. However, that takes money, so the bullshit flies about 'do more with less' until eventually teachers/schools are trying to everything with nothing. Until such time we put bucks where the research proves it should go, we will none of us have the education systems that would produce students who have been challenged to their fullest potentials. And society will pay as a result of that. Indeed, it is becoming a national disgrace. |
|
30 Jun 07 - 11:16 PM (#2091338) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Riginslinger As much as I disagree with him politically, when I've seen Clarence Thomas on television, he comes off as a very smart guy. I think there is merit on both sides of this discussion. But. I was watching a presentation by Howard Zinn on C-Span, and he was asked, if he could do just one thing to correct the problems in America, what would he do? His answer was, "Double teacher's salaries." When one stops to think about it, this would address a number of issues. Teachers would get the respect they deserve, but more importantly, the profession would begin to attract people who, for one reason or another, had a lot of talent, but felt like they simply couldn't afford to go into teaching. Frankly, I think Howard Zinn was right. |
|
01 Jul 07 - 10:43 AM (#2091574) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: GUEST,Dani Below is a link to a series in the Washington Post investigating the school system there. There is SO much great information that points up and attempts to explain problems in one of the worst districts in the nation. The fact that I CAN EVEN WRITE THAT SENTENCE ought to piss us off enough to march out our front doors this morning! http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/metro/interactives/dcschools/ What struck me, though, was a graph (I'll make you read around and find it yourself) that stretched down the right side of a page of newsprint, ranking district schools by poverty levels and proficiency. It was disturbing in its simplicity: poor equals poor-performing. I think most of us know that on some level, but this graph HAD to make people sit up straight and pay attention. There was, however, ONE school that jumped out of the trend, and I wish I had time to go find out more and read about what's happening different there. I'm so glad to see this discussion here. All due respect to you, Bobert, I wish we could change the title to invite the same kind of thought and discussion I see in the Poverty thread. Dani |
|
01 Jul 07 - 12:54 PM (#2091664) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Peace I came across this poem on the internet and thought some teachers out there might enjoy it. What Teachers Make, or Objection Overruled, or If things don't work out, you can always go to law school By Taylor Mali www.taylormali.com He says the problem with teachers is, "What's a kid going to learn from someone who decided his best option in life was to become a teacher?" He reminds the other dinner guests that it's true what they say about teachers: Those who can, do; those who can't, teach. I decide to bite my tongue instead of his and resist the temptation to remind the other dinner guests that it's also true what they say about lawyers. Because we're eating, after all, and this is polite company. "I mean, you¹re a teacher, Taylor," he says. "Be honest. What do you make?" And I wish he hadn't done that (asked me to be honest) because, you see, I have a policy about honesty and ass-kicking: if you ask for it, I have to let you have it. You want to know what I make? I make kids work harder than they ever thought they could. I can make a C+ feel like a Congressional medal of honor and an A- feel like a slap in the face. How dare you waste my time with anything less than your very best. I make kids sit through 40 minutes of study hall in absolute silence. No, you may not work in groups. No, you may not ask a question. Why won't I let you get a drink of water? Because you're not thirsty, you're bored, that's why. I make parents tremble in fear when I call home: I hope I haven't called at a bad time, I just wanted to talk to you about something Billy said today. Billy said, "Leave the kid alone. I still cry sometimes, don't you?" And it was the noblest act of courage I have ever seen. I make parents see their children for who they are and what they can be. You want to know what I make? I make kids wonder, I make them question. I make them criticize. I make them apologize and mean it. I make them write, write, write. And then I make them read. I make them spell definitely beautiful, definitely beautiful, definitely beautiful over and over and over again until they will never misspell either one of those words again. I make them show all their work in math. And hide it on their final drafts in English. I make them understand that if you got this (brains) then you follow this (heart) and if someone ever tries to judge you by what you make, you give them this (the finger). Let me break it down for you, so you know what I say is true: I make a goddamn difference! What about you? |
|
01 Jul 07 - 01:14 PM (#2091673) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Bobert Well, Dani, if you have another name for the thread that you think would be better then PM me, I'll give it a think over and if I like it as well, I'll ask Joe Offer to change it... Okay??? Bobert |
|
01 Jul 07 - 02:07 PM (#2091703) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Bobert, Jim Crow is a man with a coat of many colors; I think your thread title has brought some interesting responses. Clarence Thomas in many ways is self-made. He also reflects views found in rural Georgia which differ from those of urban Blacks. He was born a 'Geechee,' but when a child was dumped into Savannah, perhaps the most socially stratified city in America. He suffered taunts and discrimination from lighter-skinned Blacks and was not accepted by them. He did learn Georgian English, but isolated and being bookish, largely taught himself. Still uncomfortable in the language, although he has learned it very well, he rarely gives oral opinions. His views seem to reflect those of many rural Georgian Blacks, but not those of urban, or urban-influenced Blacks. A recent book, "Supreme Discomfort, the Divided Soul of Clarence Thomas," by Merida and Fletcher, Doubleday, provides some understanding of the man, but their knowledge of southern rural Blacks, like mine (although my wife is from rural GA), is superficial. |
|
01 Jul 07 - 02:58 PM (#2091729) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Azizi Q, I'm sure you didn't mean to, but you insult people of Gullah {Geechee} descent or other "rural Georgian Blacks" by equating their views with those of Clarence Thomas. I've known some Gullah people, and the people I know definitely do NOT have the same views as Thomas. Besides which, how you gonna lump all people from one area together and say they think this way or that way? There's lots of different viewpoints among Gullah people. But my bet is on the fact that most people of Gullah descent-like other African Americans think that Clarence is not only a disgrace to Black folks, but he-like his massa Georgie-is a disgrace to the human race. |
|
01 Jul 07 - 02:59 PM (#2091730) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Azizi I found a review of the book Q mentions in his last post. I'm gonna post the whole thing since some people on dial-up Internet access may be interested in reading it. Metrotimes {Detroit} ONE SACRY GUY by Larry Gabriel 5/16/2007 "I'm not sure that anyone really needs to read a biography of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. But I must admit that Supreme Discomfort: The Divided Soul of Clarence Thomas ($26.95, Doubleday, 432 pp.), by Washington Post reporters Kevin Merida and Michael Fletcher, provides fascinating insights into the character of the man so many of us on the left have come to vilify. And the new book's title is dead on. The man is uncomfortable in so many ways. Indeed, he seems uncomfortable in his very skin. And that is the crux of the man. He is a conservative's conservative whose votes and opinions fly opposite the major opinions, judgments and philosophies of the civil rights era. And he seems to reserve a special hatred for affirmative action. Merida and Fletcher's book goes a long way in explaining the contrarian bellicosity that Thomas displays. He never got over the slights and injustices that school kids mete out to each other. Thomas was teased as a child for his Geechee-Gullah speech patterns, for his dark skin, for his Negroid features, for his kinky hair. And all this teasing came from other black kids, who Thomas viewed as the lighter-skinned black middleclass — the families of doctors and lawyers who didn't accept his entrepreneurial grandfather who made a good living delivering heating oil. At the same time he felt himself an outcast among the white students at the private Catholic schools he attended. So Thomas grew up a man without a country — adrift with nothing to cling to but his increasingly rigid beliefs. He had a growing disgust with the way poor blacks became dependent on entitlements. He seems to think that whites see his achievements as tokenism or the result of quotas. The bottom line is most professional blacks deal with this attitude on a regular basis, but it doesn't turn into a bitter crusade against the very thing that helped them along the way. Nor does it lessen their professional aptitude and effectiveness. The guy seems to have so much inner conflict that you begin to feel sorry for him. Then you look at the votes he has cast, and your compassion becomes tempered by how much he has harmed progressive causes, and how much potential he has to cause further harm. He favors capital punishment, supports executive power of the sort President Bush flouts, and isn't big on the rights of those accused of crimes. He voted against the University of Michigan in the affirmative action case that came before the court in 2005. Thomas is an odd character who is a friend to Rush Limbaugh and former Texas U.S. Rep. Dick Armey; he and Armey are fishing buddies. And Thomas defended Strom Thurmond from charges of racism because the senator spoke nicely to him when he first arrived in Washington. He seems to long to be accepted by black people but lives an insulated life protected from those who he feels have turned against him. He doesn't forget either, keeping a detailed mental checklist of those wrongs. Although Anita Hill's is the name most often connected with Thomas' in public memory, there's relatively little discussion here of the 1991 Senate confirmation hearings where she accused her former boss of sexual harassment and nearly scuttled his ascension to the high court. Still the authors make clear that if all the available evidence had been allowed in the hearing, Thomas would probably not have been confirmed The odd inner workings of the Supreme Court come into focus in the latter part of the book. In some cases, Supreme Court justices' opinions have evolved as they study and argue about the U.S. Constitution. Don't expect Thomas to change. He is rigid and seems to have little curiosity that would change his hardened mind-set. Discomfort is well-written and told in anecdotes that make for good storytelling. However, when you step back and consider the man, Clarence Thomas is scary." http://www.metrotimes.com/editorial/story.asp?id=10502 |
|
01 Jul 07 - 04:19 PM (#2091776) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Yes, there are many different views in the South, of course I oversimplify by trying to indicate that views in rural Georgia differ from those held in other parts of the country. I can only speak from what I learned there which admittedly is superficial- only someone born there or with long exposure there can speak with authority. I have only met one Gullah (having a hard time outside of her area and of course one is never representative) but talked with a number of rural Blacks in central Georgia. (Perhaps I should also say that educational money in rural Georgia is often mis-spent and wasted). Another review of the book, "Supreme Discomfort," appeared in the New York Times Book Review, June 17, 2007, reviewed by Orlando Patterson, a professor of sociology at Harvard University. In a note "Up Front," The Editors say Patterson thinks "extremism on both sides is flatly rejected. The great majority of black Americans, including the black poor, do not blame their problems on race, as the academic army of social scientists insists on telling them they should, and getting lifetime tenure for it." Patterson considers Thomas a "disappointment" because he lacks compassion and often is extremely "right-wing" in his views. The review: http://www.nytimes.com/pages/books/review/index.html Book Review Put Supreme Discomfort in the Search box, check books. This will link one to the review "Thomas Agonistes," no. 2 on the list that appears. The review is too long to insert here. The reviewers conclude: "...the book remains invaluable for any understanding of the court's most controversial figure. It persuasively makes the case that "the problem of color is a mantle" Thomas "yearns to shed, even as he clings to it." In doing so, it brilliantly illuminates not only Thomas but his turbulent times, the burden of race in 20th-century America, and one man's painful and unsettling struggle, along with his changing nation's, to be relieved of it." |
|
01 Jul 07 - 09:37 PM (#2092004) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Bobert Thanks, Mizzi... Okay, I understand what you said about Clarence Thomas... I've known a lot of rural black folk who have stuck it out in the South and I have found many of them to be as ignorant as the "rednecks" they live with about worldly things... I was living on farm back in the last 60's in Montpeleir, Va. in an area that was purdy much black... I'd gotten in purdy good with the family one farm over and would go over there at night an' they'd make a fire outside and we would sit, drink and talk 'bout stuff... Well, this was when the US had sent a man to the moon and their were pictures on the TV showin' Neil Armstron landin' on the moon and there was this ol' black man over at that other farm that was sayin' the same ignorant stuff I'd just heard at the general store from some white ruarl folks about it being fake??? Man, I'll never forget that night... I was trying to tell this ol' black man that it was fir real and he was spoutin' that same ol' dumb stuff that the white guys were sayin'... I think this is Clarence Thomas... It ain't just Georgia... It's anywhere in the South where black folks just dug in and tried to get along... Clarence Thomas is still just trying to get along...Problem I have with Clarence Thomas isn't that he's trying to get along but with whom... His decisions are not world view decisions... They are, excuse me, "Uncle Tom" decisons... He is, IMO, what was once know as a "Porch (house) Negro"... These were the hose servents and the overseeres... They took care of "master" and they also beat the living crud outta "uppity slaves"... Sorry, that is my view of the man... He's no Thorgood Marshall who stood by the 13th Ammendment... Bobert |
|
01 Jul 07 - 10:06 PM (#2092017) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: GUEST,Natasha Woods "So how much interracial contact does Thomas have being the sole spook that sits by the door?" Now in what context is the word "spook" being used in the above sentence? There seems to be several definitions of this word: 1. A type of spirit in native American folk lore 2. A colloquial term for a spy 3. An alternative term for a ghost 4. Spook (band), an Australian trip-hop band. 5. Spook: Science Tackles the Afterlife, a book about the afterlife by Mary Roach 6. A racial slur for a black person. 7. A character from The Wardstone Chronicles I sincerely hope that racial slurs are not acceptable in any discussion here on the Mudcat regardless of who is being discussed. So, if this is the case, I will take it that #6 on the above list is NOT the intended definition. |
|
01 Jul 07 - 10:19 PM (#2092030) Subject: RE: BS: Jim Crow Back in Town... From: Dickey Another Bobert Inc. stink bomb. To call someone Jim Croa is both bigoted and racist but Bobert does it just to get folks stirred up for a laugh. "Come listen all you galls and boys, I'm going to sing a little song, My name is Jim Crow. Weel about and turn about and do jis so, Eb'ry time I weel about I jump Jim Crow." Jim Crow 1828 +- |
|
01 Jul 07 - 11:09 PM (#2092077) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Joe Offer Thread name change per frquest from Bobert. Maybe he's not so Jim Crow as you think.... |
|
01 Jul 07 - 11:19 PM (#2092087) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Peace Bobert can be a real pain in the arse to some folks, but calling him either bigoted or racist is libelous. Best you apologize for that remark. You may strongly disagree with his politics, and that is your prerogative. But you have no place calling him a bigot or a racist. |
|
01 Jul 07 - 11:33 PM (#2092096) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: wysiwyg A very progressive school district where I worked was located in a community just over the border from a very poor and very violent section of Chicago... a mostly-black area (to use the language in place at that time). That community (generations of whites) reacted to a sudden influx of African-Americans at a particular point in the town's history by deciding to take on race concerns, head on. A progressive housing policy was drawn up and VIGOROUSLY supported, decade after decade, by the originally-mostly-white political party in power. The policy openly and aggressively encouraged integrative housing policies and backed them up with extremely progressive school registration policies to continually massage folks together. In no time at all, people of ALL ethnic backgrounds flocked to this town because it was truly a place where diversity was not only important, but something SO important that people were willing to try new ideas to achieve it. Openly. Persistently. Creatively. I tell you what, it was a thrilling place to live and to work. Not a melting pot. A paella. Now I can't recall what the formulas and policies were, exactly. I do know that within the very small footprint of that town, busing helped maintain the policies; no one, however, was bused very far because it was, in total, a very small place with a very high population density due to a good mix of apartments and single-family houses on smallish lots-- a lot of people to "juggle." Around the time I was there, they were starting to transform most of the elementary schools into a series of magnet schools-- an arts emphasis here, a science emphasis there, and so forth. With a permissive-transfers policy. Well, by the time I got into this picture, "diversity" had spread throughout the community. At businesses. At lunch tables. At wedding showers. On school boards. In back yards. Around police and fire personnel. In town gummint. In both active political parties. On 20-30 extremely active town boards and commissions. Not diversity in name only-- friendships, alliances, dynamic partnerships, business opportunities. And "affirmative action" didn't have a thing to do with it. "Affirmative action" LEARNED from it. Was it perfect, hell no. But people still wanted in on it, into it, to work with it. Multiculturally. Since this decision came down, my main thought has been, "They must be flipping now." I cannot imagine that they are going to be willing to go backwards. I hope the same creativity and ability to work together that made the town what it became will inform their response, now, and continue to show us the way. ~Susan |
|
02 Jul 07 - 12:20 AM (#2092114) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey Education, Race 'n Community sounds a lot better, more PC than Jim Crow is back in town. Thanks Bobert. |
|
02 Jul 07 - 04:33 AM (#2092209) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Azizi Well, well, looky here! Guest Natasha Woods is back in town! Natasha, you were right on the money that I meant #6. But perhaps you didn't get my allusion to the novel "The Spook That Sat By The Door", written in 1969 by the African American author Sam Greenlee. Check out this excerpt from the wikipedia article about that book: ["The Spook That Sat By The Door" is] "A book written by Sam Greenlee in 1969. It was made into a film in 1973. An explosive, award-winning novel in the black literary tradition, "The Spook Who Sat by the Door" is both a satire of the civil rights problems in the United States in the late 1960s and a serious attempt to focus on the issue of black militancy. Dan Freeman, the "spook who sat by the door," is enlisted in the CIA's elitist espionage program as its token black. Upon mastering agency tactics, however, he drops out to train young Chicago blacks as "Freedom Fighters." As a story of one man's reaction to ruling-class hypocrisy, the book is autobiographical and personal. As a tale of a man's reaction to oppression, it is universal. It also reflects the CIA's odd tradition of giving training to persons and/or groups that later use what they have learned against them". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spook_Who_Sat_By_The_Door -snip- Needless to say, I'm not going to waste my energy hoping that Clarence Thomas will see the light, leave neoconservatism behind, and actively work against it by using the powerful legal means at his disposal. But, still, it would be very sweet if that occurred. ** Btw, Guest Natasha, when's the last time that you took a look see at this thread on children's rhymes that you started? thread.cfm?threadid=102055&messages=37 "Folklore: Play Ground Hand Jives" |
|
03 Jul 07 - 06:06 PM (#2093427) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Yeah, it would be nice, Mizzi... But it ain't gonna happen because Clarence Thomas is who he is and most foplks don't change, they just get more so... And, Dickey??? Shame on you, creepo... I ain't no bigot unless having a distinct distaste for ignorant people makes me one... If so, where do I sign up??? B~ |
|
05 Jul 07 - 09:51 PM (#2095234) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,Dani We first moved to our small Southern town about 6 months before my eldest began kindergarten. We found that a long-closed neighborhood school was being cleaned up and re-opened as a year-round school of choice. Somehow they got this shiny new model ready in this very old building, and my child was in the first class to start bottom up. Sidebar: Turns out (and this is important later in the story) that the school in a long-ago life was the Black high school in our town, when it was still OK to do that (ancient history? In most of our lifetimes!) There are old movies in our library where you can see the kids at the White school parading, waving, yelling, smiling. Then the filmmaker goes to the Black school, and you mostly see very subdued, serious looking kids hugging their books to their chests and looking down or away from the camera. In any case, with the dedicated help of some of the neighborhood folks who graduated from that high school, this school became very, very successful. In the beginning, there was a good mix of Black and White families, and a good socio-economic cross-section. There were all KINDS of students there, 'cause no one quite knew what to do with year-round education yet. In so many ways it was a unique and wonderfully nurturing school environment for both of my kids. But it changed over the years. As it became clear that the school was doing well (highest performing elementary in the district) demand grew, and as it became more difficult to get in, the diverse population became more wealthy (now only 13% 'free and reduced lunch"), and more White. We had moved on by then, so I'm not really sure how that all happened, and it saddens me. Well, this is where it gets interesting…. Not one block away, there is another school, where the neighborhood kids are naturally assigned unless they opt for year-round and get in. They have nearly 65% "free and reduced lunch", much higher percentage of Black kids, and some of the lowest test scores around. But here's the thing!! ANY parent in the district can and could have applied to send their child to the year-round school! Those of us who started out there got lucky. I know that the district did a great deal of outreach in the Black and Hispanic communities. The reasons families chose for staying in an underperforming school are a mystery to me, and one that I would like to understand. So now, faced with the facts of a very successful school, and a very not-successful school, steps away from each other, the Board of Education is struggling with the correct response. They are working on a plan that will merge the two schools into a hybrid model, putting K-1-2 in one building, and 3-4-5 in another. School Board member 1: "Diversity for diversity's sake is not something I'm on board with." School Board Member 2: "I'm pleased the board spent the time on the process, eventually articulating that socioeconomic balance is critical to the academic and life success of our school children." But they need to have the buy-in of the parents to make it all work. It will be very interesting to see what 'buy-in' looks like. And what 'buy-OUT" looks like. Dani |
|
06 Jul 07 - 10:17 AM (#2095625) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Mrrzy I think that if people would pay attention to income rather than to race a lot of animosity would vanish. Income is variable; race is not, Michael Jackson notwithstanding. |
|
07 Jul 07 - 11:00 AM (#2096357) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey Tell me Bobert, Am I a bigot? You seem to think bigotry is good as long as you are the bigot. |
|
07 Jul 07 - 11:27 AM (#2096374) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly That's an interesting, if inflamatory, way of putting it. All the social engineers who suspect that only one race is incapable of surviving the educational and economic challenges of life in the USA without their help in the form of government intervention... ...and yet, those who assume all races are equally naturally adept at learning and surviving are considered by these social engineers to be the bigots/racists. They mean well and don't even see the backhanded slap they give by their intervention. It's a mixed up, shook up world. |
|
07 Jul 07 - 01:03 PM (#2096414) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert If it takes "intervention" to create "equal opportunity" then bring it on... Like I said, if that make me a bigot then I think the definition has been severly twisted around to the point where just about anything that one does to try to level the playing field is a form of bigotry... If so, then I agree 100% with John that it is indeed a "mixed up, shook up world..." Bobert |
|
07 Jul 07 - 04:10 PM (#2096517) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly "Like I said, if that make me a bigot then I think the definition has been severly twisted around to the point where just about anything that one does to try to level the playing field is a form of bigotry..." I'm not saying that "anything that one does to try to level the playing field is a form of bigotry". What I am implying is that there seems to be an inherently racist assumption -- that there is only one race in need of the "leveling". I just can't see Blacks as inferior in that way. |
|
07 Jul 07 - 07:10 PM (#2096631) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,Dani ... which really goes to the heart of these matters! For my school example, if we don't reach out in uniquely effective ways to recruit Black and Hispanic families to a school like this, we're not going to have them there. And then our elementary schools are either de facto segregated, or neighborhood schools, depending on your perspective. With regard to a school of choice, there are more than a few questions: WHY aren't certain groups represented? Are there misconceptions that can be corrected? HOW MUCH effort should be expended in reaching out to under-represented communities? HOW do you explain to the families that represent the status-quo/majority that this is an important thing to do, even if test scores suffer in the short term?! Dani |
|
07 Jul 07 - 08:09 PM (#2096654) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert And lastly, HOW do you intergrate schools without considering ***race***??? There are more poor white people than there are porr black people so using economic consideration, as aopposed to race, is no assurance that the schools will be intergrated, only that there is a greater possibility that poorer more afflunet white will attend the same schools and poorer and more affluent blacks will attend ***other schools***, you know, like before the 1954 Brown v. Topeka Board of Education decision... Isn't this what it boils down to??? If not, what the heck can I possibly be missing here??? Bobert |
|
08 Jul 07 - 08:00 AM (#2096890) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly Why does it seem to bother people that Blacks like the company and association of other Blacks? Do we insist on going in and breaking up Chinatown? ...Little Italy? Is it the hope that if you can just get the Black kids into the "white" schools that they will learn to be less "black"? Do we just not like the way they teach their own children, and wish they'd teach them in a manner more in line with our sensibilities? ....doesn't that fly in the face of the ridiculous notion of "diversity" wherein the goal is to make sure that each and every ethnicity and race remains distinct -- so that we can enjoy difference for difference sake? |
|
08 Jul 07 - 10:31 AM (#2096978) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Blacks were brought to this country as slaves... Italains and Asians weren't and white people have "allowed" these folks, along with every other wave of immigrants to assimilate into public education... Heritage, fine... Segregation, not so... |
|
08 Jul 07 - 11:33 AM (#2097007) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly So you're saying that because one person's ancestors came here volunteerly and another's came here by force, the ones whose ancestors came by force cannot learn the same way -- cannot function in society -- must be forced to associate with the majority in order to be educated? Are you trying to imply that only the slow ones got caught and sent the the Americas -- and so their offspring, one hundred years later are still slow and need help thriving in America? There's just no pretty way to tell a race of people that they aren't capable of making it without "our" help. Tell the Asians they came here overloaded with advantages. LOTS of white American's ancestory came over as indentured servants. It's not that black and white. |
|
08 Jul 07 - 12:20 PM (#2097036) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,Dani OK, but take my school example. The poorest-performing is one of the poorest, and one of the Black-est. By merging the two schools, you will necessarily change all of those formulas: the academic success as measured by testing, the socio-economic numbers, and the racial balance. Wiser minds than I are trying to figure out the best way to balance those things. I don't think we're giving enough credit to the fact that SO MANY GOOD PEOPLE are struggling to figure this out. We are losing sight of what I feel is the very most important factor in a school's success; whether and how parents and the community are involved in the school on a daily basis. I feel that parents for sure, administrators absolutely, and every taxpayer should do school duty of some kind somewhere. We should REQUIRE it of parents and administrators and school board members. Mostly so they see the realities of school life in their communities, and also to provide the manpower/womanpower so badly needed. As far as "breaking up" racial lines, I don't think we should aim for getting Black kids into "White" schools, or White kids into "Black" schools. I don't want anyone to have as their goal making 'them' like 'us'! That said, there is a strong and vibrant Black component to my town. As much as I want my kids, ALL kids, to go to the absolute best schools they can, I want the schools they attend to represent ALL the community, not just the White blocks around where they live. No good is served by self-segregation. It probably won't look like that when they get to college, and it CERTAINLY won't look like that when they go to work. I don't want everyone to look/talk/think alike; I do want us all to know HOW each other look/talk/think on a regular basis. Dani |
|
08 Jul 07 - 05:27 PM (#2097231) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: podman I think that the idea that government should intervene in order to make adjustments per race/ religion/ ethnicity is an idea whose time is going and soon to be gone. Good Riddance. It is time for kids in school to sit still and pay attention. What I see is NOT a matter of race, but a matter of discipline and cultural tradition. If your folks make you mind your teachers and make you understand that doing well in school is important to them and to you, then a better world follows. If your folks tolerate your absence from school, abusing your teachers, then blame them and take them to court, disintegration follows, and possibly that kind of disintegration does lead to segregation - of the self. As the saying goes, "If you think education is expensive, try ignorance." |
|
08 Jul 07 - 06:40 PM (#2097267) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey I see Bobert and others telling poor people that the odds are against them. Things are "fixed" so they will never get ahead. Exxon is robbing them. They will never be able to break out of poverty. Rich people stole the money they should have etc. Just a bunch of horseshit. People are not born stupid, they are raised stupid and told they are disadvantaged ubtil they start to actually believe they can never get ahead. All they need is an education and to be told they can succeed if they apply themselves. No doubt Bobert will tell me I am wrong and stupid just like he would tell a poor person who thinks they can succeed. |
|
08 Jul 07 - 08:10 PM (#2097317) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert No, I am not saying that at all... I am just putting the current situation in some sort of historical perspective... There seems to be this mindset that it's black folks who haven't wanted to assimilate... Well, after being treated as second class people, legally and socially it is no wonder that many blacks have a distinct mistrust of white folks motives... Now to wit: the recent Supreme Court decision that in essense says the intergration is fine as long a "race" is not considered in the process??? No wonder blacks don't trust white folks... And, pleeeeze don't use Clarence Thomas as an argument 'cause he does not represent black people in any way, shape or form... No, I think ion this overall discussion it is only fair to bring historical perspectives as a means of figuring what it is about black folks that white people are so afraid of... What, maybe that if white people had to confront their own history that they might have to actaully apologize for slavery, 'er heavens no, think about ways to repair the damage done by slavery and another 100 years of Jim Crow??? No, these are legitimate issues if we are going to have this discussion and I'd challange anyone who doesn't think so to laym out a logical argument why this part of the discussion is not part of the overall spirit of this thread and the Supreme Court's decision... Bobert |
|
08 Jul 07 - 09:23 PM (#2097350) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Azizi podman and Dickey, there's no one reason why so many Black students and so many Latino students do so poorly in school. Would that there were just one reason. ** Dani, I very much respect, appreciate, and applaud your commitment to diversity. However, I don't believe that school desegregation efforts were initiated in the 1950s because diversity is intrinsically good. As I quoted in one of my earlier posts to this thread: "But no one should be confused about why African- Americans sought to enroll in desegregated schools. "There is no evidence that the long struggle of civil rights groups to end segregation was only motivated by a desire to have minority children sit next to white children," the Harvard report stated. "There was a strong belief that predominantly white schools offered better opportunities on many levels..." -snip- In other words, Black parents who pushed for school desegregation felt that their children would be more likely to get a quality education if they went to schools that were also attended by White students. If these parents could have been assured that their majority "Black" schools would have the same fiscal supports {including books & supplies, laboratories, building structure & building maintenance, and teacher/staff salary support} as "White" schools, they may not have pushed so strenuously for school desegregation. This point does not negate the fact that it's good for people of different races and ethnicities to know each other and have opportunities to socially interact with each other. But unfortunately, even in so-called integrated schools, classrooms may not be all that integrated {because of a number of reasons, but especially because of classroom stratification as a result of academic testing}. And positive interaction between children and teens of different races/ethnicities does not necessarily take place in integrated schools. Case in point: Although the student population was just about 50-50 {50% Black and 50% White} at my high school {which was the only public high school in my hometown}, and although 900 students were in my graduating class [and there was a total of 3,000 students in that school], because I did well on the placement academic test, I was one of 2 Black students in my classes throughout ALL my years at that school. There were NO classes that students in my group took with students in any other group except the one group in which the students had scored higher than we did. That group also had just 2 Black students. I'm assuming that the test graders were honest folks, and didn't stack the deck to make sure that these classes had only a couple of Black students. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if that had occurred. Another case in point-20 years or so afterwards...My daughter attended a small, racially integrated performing and visual arts [public] high school. All her classes were racially integrated. Some of the students-such as my daughter- had attended the performing/visual arts middle school. So a considerable number of the students had known each other for some time. However, my daughter informed me that most students in the middle school and high school voluntarily segregated themselves at separate lunch room tables. While she routinely sat at "integrated table" with a "mixed" group of friends, most of the White students sat at "their own" table, and most of the Black students sat at "their own" table. While I'm glad that my daughter bucked the self-segregation custom at her school, I can also understand why students of different races self-segregate. {Here's another personal story-The first day that I went down to lunch at my liberal arts college, I was invited to sit at the "Black table". I declined and went to sit down to eat with my Jewish roomate {why that Swedish Lutheran college with only 3 Black women as campus residents assigned me to room me with another "minority" is another story-well actually it's another part of the whole story}... Three years later, at the start of a new school year, I was seated at the Black table. Why? I was SICK of the "what do Black people want?" and "Do Black people get sun tans" and a host of other assorted questions, some well meaning, and some not. I was also tired about not studying anything about me or MY PEOPLE except in reference to dysfunction families and dysfunctional community systems in sociology classes. I wanted to hang with Black people so I could shoot the breeze using words and sayings and cultural references that I did not have to explain. I wanted to kick back and relax and just be me. And so I sat at the lunch table with other Black students instead of sitting at the "integrated table". And that was just what the doctor [in me] ordered at that time and in that space. |
|
08 Jul 07 - 09:56 PM (#2097361) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Good point, MizziAzziz... What they called it when I was a teadher was "tracking" which was a fancy word for "segregation"... Yeah, though half your school was balck and half white you were only, what??? 1% of the black students who actually attended classes with white kids??? And this, after Brown v. Topeka Board of Ed??? Like I said in my last post, I firmly believe that white people have histroically behaved so poorly toward black people that it is no wonder that there is "waiting-for-the-other-shoe-to-drop" attitude when white people try to do the right thing... That's what I don't get about white people??? Someone mentioned something about Asian and Italian students but it seems that white folks have ***allowed*** these groups to assimilate, to melt into the pot... You don't hear white folks sayin' anything bad about their kids going to school with either Asain or Italian kids but you sho nuff still have white parents who have strong feelings about their kids going to school with black kids... Like, and I'm being perfectly serious here, what the heck is this all about??? I remember my late uncle who grew up in the 20's in Detroit and he had lots of prejudices against this group or that group... Not against blacks, tho... Yeah, he would rail against Italians big time... But today, Italian kids have melted in... You don't have the Supreme Court deciding stuff about Italian kids attending certain schools... (Well, bobert, it's a color thing...) Is it??? Asian and Hispanic kids ain't all that lilly white but you don't have the Supreme Court jumpin' in their stuff tryin' to kick them outta intergrated schools... I mean, even with all this right winged anti-immigtrant crap you don't have the Supreme Court jumpin' in the middle of school boards over these folks??? No, it's the "black" folks that are still the center of attention in this long struggle against both our screwed up history and our society's screwed up thinking about how balck and white folks should/could/will/can live together as people of shared histories... This thing needs to get solved once and for all... The recent Supreme Court decision just kicked the can further down the road for reasons that I cannot fathom??? I mean, I don't care how many people say, "Well, the ruling wasn't so bad"... Nop, the ruling was worse than bad... This current crop of leaders is spineless and has no courage to take our society to a higher level... No, in their spinelessness, all they have done is punted a golden opportunty way down the road... ..and it makes me sick... Bobert |
|
09 Jul 07 - 09:39 AM (#2097675) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey Bobert: There was as muych bias against asians as there was against black people. Where did it go? People can assimilate if they want to. You seem to think the government is supposed to be like the Borgs and force people to do things against their will. You and people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are telling black people that they can't trust white people. I think to be fair you should perform some rap/hip hop/gangsta numbers during your performances. |
|
09 Jul 07 - 02:54 PM (#2097950) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Bull, Dickey... Blacks have been in this country as long as women... Check it out... Both were brought here in 1619 which was a couple hundred years before Asians... And bull, Part B, Dickey... I don't need to tell anyone not to trust white folks... I mean, with all tyhe dumb stuff that white people have pulled histirically on black folks I ain't got some secret revelation here... BLack folks know... And if they are too young to rember the entire song they certainly got the last verse of it last week when the Roberts court decided that "race" could not be used as a variable in desegregating schools??? I mean, if this sounds rediculous, what do you think future generations will think of this decision??? Impeach John "Jim Crow" Roberts!!! Bobert |
|
09 Jul 07 - 04:07 PM (#2098019) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,dianavan I have tried to read all of your posts but admit to skimming some. Forgive me if I am repeating or missing something. Q - Your assumption, that "the full impact of Court decisions made in far-off Washington was not felt." is wrong. Many people, mistakenly, would agree with you. In Seattle, there is a very well established African American community that spans four or five generations. I was in high school when the first Black students were bussed in and I taught in that school twenty years later. I have now experienced the way Vancouver, B.C. handles the 'multicultural' mix. There are pros and cons of both. Yes, the problem of segretation in Seattle in the 60's was acute. This was mainly because the neighborhoods were segregated from each other along racial lines. Franklin (which was the mentioned above) was neither 'Black or White'. It was the 'Brown' school. That doesn't seem to have changed much. Thomas was full of shit when he said, "Simply putting students together under the same roof does not necessarily mean that the students will learn together or even interact. Furthermore, it is unclear whether increased interracial contact improves racial attitudes and relations." It definitely improved racial attitudes and relations. In addition, it changed the demographics of the entire city. The neighborhoods in Seattle became more integrated. Although Blacks were leaving the 'ghetto', Whites were still reluctant to live in Black areas of town but they left the areas where their Elementary kids were subject to bussing. Although the changes were imposed and the results were not the same as projected, racial attitudes definitely changed as people mixed more freely. In order to achieve integration in the schools, it was thought that 'bussing' students would be the answer. I applauded that decision and was one of the designated student 'hosts'. It was not easy to be taunted and spat upon by the Whites who opposed integration but I endured and learned from the experience. Happily, twenty years later when I returned, the school was fully integrated and Black and White students readily mixed in apparent oblivion to how it had been accomplished. Racial integration was taken for granted. The down side was that my daughter lived in a neighborhood that was bussed into a Black elementary school. The way the bussing plan worked was that the Black Pimary students (K-3) were bussed into the White schools and the White Intermediate (4-6) students were bussed into the Black schools. Although I certainly did not object to my daughter going to schools with Blacks, I did not like the fact that she spent 30 minutes (both ways)on the bus at such a young age. I thought that Black mothers felt the same way about their babies (K-3)who endured the same journey but at an ven younger age. In fact, I thought it was interesting that school system imposed this journey on Black students during the younger years. This, in itself, was a form of dicrimination. Most young children need to attend schools in their neighborhoods, close to home, so that their parents can be actively involved in their child's education. If there is opportunity, it is also best if the kids go home for lunch. If there are 'problems' at school (academic or behavioural) its best if the parents can be readly contacted and present if necessary to 'nip it in the bud'. Bussing made all of this impossible. Emotionally, I think its very hard on little kids to leave their neighborhood and attend school in a 'strange' place. It induced a sense of fear and isolation at a very young age. So, hmmm, maybe, at this point, it is no longer necessary to impose bussing. Maybe its time to look at a new model. In Vancouver, you are entitled to attend your neighborhood school if you wish. If you want to attend another school (for whatever reason) you must apply, get on the waiting list and wait for an opening. If you have an older sibling already attending the 'out of boundary' school, you are bumped to the top of the list. The exception is the French Immersion schools - everyone waits in line after the French as a first language, students. Both of my kids attended their neighborhood schools as elementary students, here in Canada. In high school, they chose 'out of boundary' schools according to their particular needs and interests. High school students in Vancouver are highly mobile and different high schools offer specialized programs within the standard curriculum. Its not a racial situation, its based on the needs of the student. So...as usual, the U.S. seems to have thrown the baby out with bathwater. What is really needed is to take a new and better approach. Seems to me that the solution lies locally and better funding for alternatives needs to become available. This recent ruling will only make the educational crisis in the U.S. more acute. It doesn't solve anything. If the problem is schooling, then fund the schools so that they can solve the problems! If the problem is housing, then fund affordable housing in all neighborhoods. Mixed income housing leads to racially integrated schools. PHEW! Why do I bother? When will the States begin to open their eyes and hearts? Is it really a lost cause? It makes me so happy to live in a civilized country. Moving to Canada was the best choice I ever made. |
|
09 Jul 07 - 04:27 PM (#2098044) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Dianavan - I think it really is a funding problem. If schools everywhere had adequate funding, I think the divisions would melt away much more quickly. If everyone wasn't forced to squabble over the small pittance of funding they were afforded, education could include more options, and there would be more unity. They way it is now, in most places, the tax base is best where the rich people live, so those schools are better off than the others. If the funding come from a different tax base--if it was federally funded, for instance, on a per student basis, where one lived wouldn't be so important. |
|
09 Jul 07 - 09:30 PM (#2098280) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,dianavan Funding schools equally and building mixed income, affordable housing in all parts of the city is definitely a solution that should be tried. All people should have the right to equal opportunities. |
|
09 Jul 07 - 09:39 PM (#2098285) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert I wish I could say thet it was strictly a funding problem but it isn't that easy... Wsahington D.C. spends $16,000 a year per student and has terrible results... D.C.'s problem goes back to the Barry adnministration where way too many middle mamagers made way too uch money and in the end the echools still didn't have heating systems that worked in the winter... No, this ain't as much about money as it is about will... Bobert |
|
09 Jul 07 - 10:17 PM (#2098301) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Bobert - I happen to be working for a company, a few years back, who won the contract to remediate the Washington DC shcools of asbestos. I'm still not sure this was a worthwhile endeaver, but I was placed in charge of a bunch of crews who worked only at night, in a major high school, a 24 hour a day operation. While is was wandering around waiting for the people to finish their work, I stumbled into the library one night. After that, I made a point to go there at every opportunity. I found history books that talked at length about the colonization and settling of North America. These books went of for almost two hundred pages about how much the African immigrants had to do with the colonization of America. When it came to talking about what the English had to do with colonizing the United States, they summed it all up in two-and-a-half pages. You're right. It's not all funding. |
|
10 Jul 07 - 05:19 AM (#2098465) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,dianavan Bobert Its not that there isn't enough money. We all know there is enough money when it comes to war. Its just that the funding priorities (the will of the politicians) is completely askew thanks to lobbying and corporate greed. |
|
10 Jul 07 - 07:56 AM (#2098526) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Azizi Riginslinger, you comment that in one school library in an African American school you "found history books [which] for almost two hundred pages [talked]about how much the African immigrants had to do with the colonization of America. When it came to talking about what the English had to do with colonizing the United States, they summed it all up in two-and-a-half pages". Reverse your point and perhaps you can catch a slight glimmer of how I and others felt and how students who are African American and other non-European races & ethnicities still feel about the education systems' overwhelming focus on European history & European cultural contributions to the world. Wirh regard to those books you happened upon in that particular library, perhaps the African role in the colonization and settling of America was the focus of these specific books. And-though I doubt that this was the case- if ALL the books in that school library focused on African contributions to the history & culture of the USA and this world, then perhaps that librarian was making some small effort to provide her/or his students access to books other than the Euro-centric textbooks,library books, and other teaching materials that are over-whelmingly found in and used in most public schools in the USA. You are right-funding is not the only problem. |
|
10 Jul 07 - 08:35 AM (#2098547) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Azizi - I gues the larger point is, now that everyone's abilitiy is being measured through universal testing, what chance does a student have to score well, when the material he/she has been given to study has no relationship to the test? I'm not saying I think it's right, but that's the way it is, at least right now, and that student will find himself at an even greater disadvantage than he otherwise would. Also, I looked to see if the books were produced by a major mainstream publisher, and they were. The whole thing speaks of a huge disconnect, but the victims are the students, it seems to me. |
|
10 Jul 07 - 09:16 AM (#2098586) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Azizi Riginslinger, notwitstanding the point that I think you were making that what "universal testing" tests is not universal, it seems to me that you are still assumming that all the books in the library and all the text books in the school were Afrocentric in their approaches and in their content. One of the points that I was trying to make in my previous response to your comment was that the school administrators who approved the purchase of those Afrocentric books could have been trying to balance in a small way the Eurocentric curriculum that is taught in that school. That heavily Eurocentric curriculum has been and is still taught in most public schools in the USA]. With regard to the USA's educational system that is so heavily weighted towards Eurocentric history and Eurocentric cultures, I agree with you that "The whole thing speaks of a huge disconnect, but the victims are the students". I would also say that the victims of such a worldview embodied in that education are also American adults, and children, youth, and adults in the rest of the world. |
|
10 Jul 07 - 10:14 AM (#2098644) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger "...it seems to me that you are still assumming that all the books in the library and all the text books in the school were Afrocentric in their approaches and in their content." I will assume further that we are talking only about books that bear on cultural issues. Science and math books I would think would be pretty much universal. History, however, is an interesting subject when one looks at it from an evolutionary perspective. The Korean government, for instance, complaining that Japanese history books gloss over the atrocities that were suffered prior to, and during WWII. When you look at it over the long haul, you have to wonder if anybody ever gets anything right. |
|
10 Jul 07 - 11:46 AM (#2098754) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Azizi I talking about these subject being taught with from a Euro-centric framework and with text books and other materials which promote a Euro-centric worldview, and which provide little information or slanted information about other cultures and other parts of the world: American History World History Literature {often called "English lit"} but refers to literature written in English and not just literature from England Sociology/Anthropology Geography Music appreciation Art appreciation Current Events {if there is such a subject anymore] Religion {if this is taught in schools anymore -snip- Other folks can name other subjects if they choose to... |
|
10 Jul 07 - 01:08 PM (#2098854) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Wolfgang Warren Court, which was the last of the true activist courts ... This Roberts Court is the exact opposite... Problem is, Bill, that this Court [Roberts court] is so activist (Bobert) I see, Roberts Court is so activist and the exact opposite of the last true activist court. Bobertspeak: activist: working for goals Bobert dislikes true activist: working for goals Bobert likes Wolfgang (not surprised but disappointed by the decision) |
|
10 Jul 07 - 02:08 PM (#2098936) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,dianavan With the exception of Anthropology, I agree with your list Azizi. I think anthropology is the only subject that strives to identify how groups of people relate to each other and how individuals with groups define themselves. At least its a discipline that is aware of ethnocentrism. You forgot the worst offender of them all - psychology. I once taught in a predominately African-American school. It was the secretary, a pillar of the community (and the local Baptist church) who told me to leave my psychology at the door. It was, she informed me, designed by White folks for White folks and wouldn't work with the students in 'her' school. I soon learned that she was absolutely correct. I learned alot that year. |
|
10 Jul 07 - 04:14 PM (#2099066) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger "I talking about these subject being taught with from a Euro-centric framework and with text books and other materials which promote a Euro-centric worldview, and which provide little information or slanted information about other cultures and other parts of the world:" Azizi - Yeah, I didn't get the drift of what you were saying until a short while after I posted my last comment. The staff was probably teaching American History--or something related--and used those text books to demonstrate another side to it. That would make sense and that's probably what they did. As I was there without a whole lot to do, I rummaged around in the library and looked through their curriculum quite a bit. The music, it seemed to me, was almost exclusively Afro-Centric, as was a lot of the Art. The building itself was four stories, old, dark, dank, and the restrooms were awful. Toilets and urinals were brown, sinks smelled terrible. In fact, if it wasn't for the new paint the workers were putting down at the time, the entire building would have smelled like raw sewage. The idea that we, as a society, were sending children there to go to school was nothing short of disgusting. It was enough to tear your heart out. |
|
10 Jul 07 - 05:22 PM (#2099141) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Ahhhh, Wolfgang, you are absolutely correct... I don't like segregation... I don't like the corporations being able to own my government... I don't like Dick Cheney being able to lie to the American people and get US into the worst war in our history but a kid can't waer a tee-shirt that says "Bong Hits 4 Jesus"... I don't like a male dominated government telling women what or what they can not do with their reproductive systems... Now if yer fir these things, fine... You have every right to support the policies of yesteryear... You have a right to say that slavery should be brought back... Yeah, knock yerself out... The activist judges of yesteryear, IMO, moved our country forward toward a more civilized one... The curreent 5 so-called conservatives aren't taking our country ***forward***... They are taking it backward... That's not just my opinion but the opinion of millions and millions of other Americans who see this current bunch as mischeivious activits... I can't think of any other court in our history that was so Hell-bent on slammin' the US gearshift in reverse... Bobert |
|
10 Jul 07 - 06:03 PM (#2099180) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly Except that, Wolfgang, "activist" by definition is a court that chooses to ignore the Constitution in favor of political agendas. Actist is opposite "true constructionist". "activist" courts do not interpret the constitution -- they write law from the bench. Often law that has NO basis in the Constitution. |
|
10 Jul 07 - 07:01 PM (#2099238) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Yes, John, and also know as "strick constructionists"... These folks ***do*** act purdy much as legislators... Problem is that in a democracy we attempt to have a representative governemnt... Right now, with a court so out of kilter with the American people, representation can be thrown out the window... Okay, it can be argues that Brown v. Topeka Board of Education was an "activist" decision because the Constitution make no specific reference to school intergration and I can't argue that it wasn't an "activist" decision... I can argue that it made our country more civilized... But, hey, isn't having a more "civilized" country a "value" thing??? Well, yeah, it is... and that is the beauty of our Consitution... It allows us to collectively "ammend" the thing which allows the country to evolve... The country did exactly that in adopting ther 13th Ammendment which should have had US a lot further down the road then we got during the 100 years after the 13th Ammendment... Now it seems that we are nitpicking what at the time was the US's thinking about black folks... So the "srrict constructionists" will fall back on their "Well, the Constituion doesn't explictly say that schools should be intergrated" and the "loose constructionists" will say, "Yeah, okay, but what about the 13th Ammendment and what about Brown v. Topeka Board of Ed..." My own feeling about strict or loose is that these labels are almost interchangable in that when you have 9 people who think their job is to create policy, better keep an eye on them and be sure they are doing so for the good of the country... The current batch??? IMO, no... Bobert |
|
10 Jul 07 - 07:51 PM (#2099280) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly But the current "batch" is not "creating policy". They are interpreting the Constitution -- and doing so in such a straighforward, non-tortured manner that anyone can see what the constitution says and why the court has ruled (constitutionally) as it has. I don't get the "strick" or "srrict" comments. If you're trying to make a point with that, it's over my head. |
|
10 Jul 07 - 08:53 PM (#2099310) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Bull... They are very much legislating usiong the guise of "Well the Consititution" dosen't explicitly say that you can't ****sue race**** to intergrat/desegregate schools... No, might of fact it doesn't... It makes no mention of desegregatin' schools... Does this mean that we should resegregate schools since they were segregated at the time of the writing of the Comsistuion??? Or to take this a tad further...; Should we reinstitute slavery since it is not deatl with in the Constitution... I mean, if you strictly construnct the Constitution the Emmancipation Proclamation is not Constitutional... I mean, lets get real here... Constitutaional law isn't just about the strick interpretaion of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights... It's also about the evolution of our country and precidence... To think not is very narrow minded and, ahhhh, excuse me, but very Talibanish... Bobert |
|
10 Jul 07 - 09:29 PM (#2099348) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Bobert - I agree, Roberts and Alito are activist judges. They are there to help the wealthy screw the working people, no matter what color. |
|
11 Jul 07 - 09:33 AM (#2099738) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey "1619 which was a couple hundred years before Asians..." Asains arrived here 12,000 years ago Bobert. Later on Filipino sailors were the first to settle in the U.S. around 1750 And I say again, there was as much bias against Asains as there was against blacks. Where did it go? Bias against blacks is a left over from the southern states who did not want to give up slavery. They fought the northern states and the north won. |
|
11 Jul 07 - 03:59 PM (#2100144) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Techincally, Asians ***did*** arrive earlier but you have missed the point, Dickey... They weren't part of European colonization of America... This is an important point and cannot bwe lightly dismissed with loopholes... The reality is that Asians came long, long after Africans... Long after... The point is that on the time line every wave of immigrants prior to the Hispanics have been assimilated except... ... African Americans... As for racism, it isn't just a southern problem... It is a national problem and the sooner that our nation owns up to it and makes the necessary corrections the better for our status as a civilized nation of just law... B~ |
|
11 Jul 07 - 10:23 PM (#2100443) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger "And I say again, there was as much bias against Asains as there was against blacks. Where did it go?" The earlier settlers could see the problems that were developing that related to blacks, subsequently, they passed the "Chinese Exclusion Act," and that's where it went. |
|
12 Jul 07 - 04:34 PM (#2100985) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,dianavan One important point is that Asian immigrants remained culturally intact (except for immediate family members who joined them later). Their language and cultural traditions were not destroyed. Assimilation was gradual. Although social and working conditions were harsh, they were allowed to live amongst each other and continued to educate themselves. Africans were stripped of their languages, their families, their traditions and their religion. They were, in fact, subjected to cultural genocide. They were not allowed access to education in any form and even after they were freed, barriers were erected. I think the operative word is cultural genocide. |
|
12 Jul 07 - 09:00 PM (#2101175) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Exactly, d... This is the point where the Dickey's disappear (or resort to game playin') because they know they are not only on the wrong side of American history but the wrong side of the Robert's court... Roberts will be impeached within the next 10 years... He and his buddy Alito are too out of step with the country... He would have been fine a 100 years ago... Well, okay, not fine... But at least more in line with the politics of the day... The American people are well beyond he and Alito's world views... This seem to be the problem with the entire Bush administration... It is way too "Talibanish" and the American people (as well as the populations of the world) have had just about enough of extremeists on both sides... Like I said... ...Impeach John Roberts!!! Bobert |
|
13 Jul 07 - 09:22 AM (#2101532) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey Bobert: The civil rights struggle is over with except for old die hard hippies stuck in the 60's and civil rights "leaders". The superior court decision is based on present conditions. I think it is progressive but you want to keep the status quo. Time to join the 21st Century and embrace the present. |
|
13 Jul 07 - 09:46 AM (#2101550) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly "Roberts will be impeached within the next 10 years... He and his buddy Alito are too out of step with the country..." This is where I think you have it backwards, Bobert. EVEN IF I granted you that Roberts and Alito are "out of step" with the country (I don't grant you that, but for the sake of this discussion, just lets say I do)... ...what you are suggesting isn't the way our government is supposed to work. Roberts and Alito are not "out of step" with THE CONSTITUTION. And THAT is the only thing they are SUPPOSED to be in step with. If the rest of the country does not like the way the Constitution is written, it is up to them to change the Constitution via their representatives. The Legislative branch does not change the Constitution by impeaching judges with whom they disagree. The Legislative branch has the prerogative to change the Constitution. Then the judges rule according to the changed will of the people. |
|
13 Jul 07 - 10:28 AM (#2101592) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Roberts and Alito will keep the country headed in the wrong direction for years. If we get a Republican president next term, there's no hope for the country. Of course, there's always the chance and Roberts and Alito will see the errors of their ways and repent, like David Souter did. |
|
13 Jul 07 - 11:27 AM (#2101654) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly no hope for the country? wow. how very apocalyptic. Is it really that bad where you live? Really? |
|
13 Jul 07 - 11:32 AM (#2101661) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger It's bad and getting worse. It's been that way since whoever was running Ronald Reagan put the country into a nose dive in the early 1980's. |
|
13 Jul 07 - 08:41 PM (#2102076) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert No, JOhn, we disagree Constitutional law... The strick constructionist tend to leap-frog over a couple centuries of precidents and evolution and use a very narrow interpretyation in order to further political idealogies... Yes, I will admit that the Warren Court was guilty, and thank God for it... The Warren Court moved our country more into the flow of the way that global civilization was moving... This, IMO, was good for the country... I mean, without such movements and precidents we might still have slavery... I mean, who is to say that the Emancipatiopn Proclamation would have surviced a Robert's/Alito Court??? Think about that for one minute... The pedulum is swinging away from the conservatives... They had a nice little run but the country ahs seen that the conservatives have not shown to be good govern-ers and what we are going to have very shortly in an executive and legislative branch that is far left of the Supreme Court... If this court repeats next year what it did this year it will not only insure that a Democart will win the White House and take a larger control of Congress but it will pit the Courst against thw will of the American people... When that occurs, impeachment will be on everyone's lips... This prediction from one man who predicted everything that has now happened in Iraq... Bobert |
|
14 Jul 07 - 02:28 AM (#2102200) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq? From: Bobert - PM Date: 09 Feb 03 - 09:27 AM "After two days of intensive bombings and every family in Iraq having lost a parent, sibling or child in the the bombings" Did this prediction come true? |
|
14 Jul 07 - 01:27 PM (#2102534) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger "Did this prediction come true?" We don't know. There isn't anybody left alive to ask. |
|
14 Jul 07 - 08:14 PM (#2102801) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Yeah, Dickey... We really don't know... Do you believe a media that has been embedded with a military that takes its oders from the Bush administartion??? If you do, I have a bridge to sell you... We don't know... What we think we know, which of course the Bushites have spent a large amount of my tax dollars refuting, is that upwards of 650,000 Iraqis have died... How many of them were shooting back is anyone's guess... No, I think I can comfortably stand by what I wrote some 5 years ago... You ceratinly cannot refute it and there seems to be more evisdence that I was right than there is that I was wrong... Your infroamtion sources come exclusively from folks who want to keep everyone in the dark... i.e, the Bush administration and its shills... Bobert |
|
14 Jul 07 - 11:09 PM (#2102918) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Kent Davis My parents attended, and my mother taught in, integrated public schools in West Virginia. In 1966, we moved to Orangeburg, South Carolina, where the schools were still segregated. My parents taught me then that the policy in South Carolina was wrong, that it was WRONG to treat an individual differently based on his or her race. Agreeing with my parents were the national news media, liberal white Southerners, many Northern whites, most blacks, the President of the United States, and the U.S. Supreme Court. In 1970, the schools there were finally integrated. The law stopped treating people differently based on color. We all knew it would be a long while before PEOPLE stopped treating people differently based on color, but we felt sure that school integration was a giant step toward the color-blind dream. Even as a 9-year-old, I knew it was wrong for the law to make blacks go to particular schools. It was wrong then. It is wrong still. Although it is sometimes pretended that there are only two schools of thought on the issue of racial discrimination, there are, in fact, three. One school of thought, segregationism, was the law in South Carolina in 1969. We called what happened in South Carolina in 1970 "integration". A third, and currently popular, school of thought seeks to balance racial demographics by treating blacks and whites differently under the law. This third view, however wise, well-meaning, and popular it may be, is in fact forbidden as public policy by the "equal protection" clause of the Constitution. Color-blind integration is what the Warren Court ordered. Color-blind integration is what the actual text of the "equal protection" clause requires. Color-blind integration is what the Roberts Court upheld. Many of you believe that the actual text of the Constitution should either be ignored or amended to allow the government to treat people differently based on their color, so long as the purpose is good, racially discriminating "in a nice way" to engineer a better society. I respect your views, even as I disagree with them. I ask that you not slander integrationism by equating it with segregationism. Kent Davis |
|
14 Jul 07 - 11:35 PM (#2102927) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger There's another way to go. You can have exclusive residential neighborhoods that most minority families can't afford to but into. In which case you have a defacto form of segregation that doesn't seem to bother anybody, except the folks who don't have the price of the buy-in. |
|
15 Jul 07 - 12:17 AM (#2102954) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Kent Davis Riginslinger, I realize that the word "segregation" is sometimes used to describe a situation in which there is a a large preponderance of one race, without regard to the cause. Thus, one might say that the northern part of Manhattan, the National Basketall Association, Mudcat, bluegrass music, and Norway are "segregated". However, they are not segregated in the Jim Crow sense of being legally mandated to exclude members of a given race. The point I was trying to make is that it is not an accurate representation of the recent Supreme Court decision to make statements such as the esteemed Mr. Bobert's opening salvo: "Just when we thought that ol' Jim was long dead seems that the Robert's Court has resurrented him with their decision that intergration is just way too much a bother..." If you favor government mandates to balance the racial demographics of schools, or of neighborhoods, or of Mudcat, I respectfully ask that you not call everyone who disagrees a segregationist. Kent Davis |
|
15 Jul 07 - 01:06 AM (#2102984) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger KD - I was not disagreeing with you. It's just that this economically driven segregation has materialized and is more evident in the last few years. I don't see anything that can be done to change it without violating the constitution. It seems to me that affirmative action is destined to change under the Robert's Court as well. |
|
15 Jul 07 - 07:44 AM (#2103156) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Yeah, there is something mind boggling when "race" cannot be used as a factor for intergarting schools... This is what the Robert's Court has decided and one day our country will look back upon the Robert's Court as just a bunch of ideologues who couldn't have cared less about the comtitution as they single handedly tried to usurp power... Think about it... First we have a power grab by the Bush/Cheney folks and they grabbed power like nuthin' most of us have seen in our life time... Then when they screwed things up and their poll numbers went in the toilet we have the judical branch picking right (pun intended) where the executive branch left off in trying to undo the same stuff that every Republican has hated going back to the New Deal... No, these aren't isolated decisions we ares eein'... What we are seing is "Boss Hog's" perfect storm agenda unfloding... The have hated the Warren Court for decades... They have hated the New Deal... These people have grown up hearing their daddies and granddaddies rail against liberal, commies, socialists and the like... They are so brainwashed that they no longer are capable of independent thought... They are Hell-bent on battling all those ill's that they have been taught to think are what's-wrong-with-America and now this particular court has grapped the power and fasten yer seatbelts 'cause they are just getting started... Bobert |
|
15 Jul 07 - 10:19 PM (#2103801) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Kent Davis Maybe I'm just dumber than a box of rocks, but I don't still don't see why it is "mind-boggling" that race can't be used as a factor in integrating schools. The 14th amendment actually forbids using race as a factor in legal decisions. "Brown Vs. Board of Education" held that race could not be used as a factor in deciding who could attend a particular school. When the decision was actually implemented, it was implemented by CEASING to take race into account. If integration in 1954 meant not taking race into account, and if integration in 1970 meant not taking race into account, then it would seem likely that integration in 2007 would still mean not taking race into account. Whether taking race into account is a good idea or a bad idea is another topic. However, the only way it COULD be taken into account would be: (1) a constitutional amendment to modify the 14th amendment or (2) a new "massive resistance", a collective decision to ignore the 14th amendment the way the Southern states did between 1954 and 1970. Kent Davis |
|
16 Jul 07 - 12:18 AM (#2103863) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Kent - By your own admission, people of African descent were marginalized by arrogant forces between the end of the Civil War until the early 1970's. Do you really think it is improper for the greater society to move to try to change these impositions? Do you think the constitution prevents them from doing that? |
|
16 Jul 07 - 08:11 PM (#2104696) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Yeah, ahhh, Kent... You say that ther 14th ammendment prevents using race as a factor in legal decisions... How about using race to keep schools segreagted which is what Brown stopped... I don't understand yer logic at all... "Yeah, Ralph, lets keep them naggas outta our white schools and when they complaim we say 'Sorry, we'd love to have yer kids learnbt up right next to littler Billy and little Bobby Sue but that danged 14th ammendment says we can't have it taht way'..." You are so full of bull, Kent, that I'd hate to be you havin' to sleep at night knowing that you are spreading the same kinda screwed up thinkin' that brough us a hundred years of Jim Crow, the KKK, the Minutemen, et al... So how would you go about ending segregation without considering race??? And BTW, I find yer arguments that desegragation and intergration being vastly different why beyond logic to any thinking man... Perhaps to a legal-eze nut but legal-eze somethimes will get us into more trouble than just good ol' common sense... But, hey, regards, an all... Bobert |
|
16 Jul 07 - 10:45 PM (#2104799) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Bobert - Lumping the KKK in with the Minutemen would seem to indicate that you think the Minutemen are motivated by racists reasons. The KKK, of course, was part of some Protestant religious organization--don't remember which one--but I think it's important not to lose sight of that. |
|
17 Jul 07 - 12:00 AM (#2104829) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Kent Davis Riginslinger, No, I do not think that "it is improper for the greater society to move to try to change these impositions". No, I do not "think the constitution prevents them from doing that". What the Constitution prevents is the GOVERNMENT from doing that. Individuals, clubs, private colleges, private businesses, charities, institutions and associations of all kinds may distinguish between the races as far as the Constitution is concerned. (There are some legislative barriers to doing so, but no Constitutional ones). Bobert, "Taking race into account" is the opposite of "NOT taking race into account". Therefore, I must request your apology for accusing me of "spreading the same kinda screwed up thinkin' that brough us a hundred years of Jim Crow, the KKK, the Minutemen, et al..." I wrote: "In 1966, we moved to Orangeburg, South Carolina, where the schools were still segregated. My parents taught me then that the policy in South Carolina was wrong, that it was WRONG to treat an individual differently based on his or her race. Agreeing with my parents were the national news media, liberal white Southerners, many Northern whites, most blacks, the President of the United States, and the U.S. Supreme Court. In 1970, the schools there were finally integrated. The law stopped treating people differently based on color. We all knew it would be a long while before PEOPLE stopped treating people differently based on color, but we felt sure that school integration was a giant step toward the color-blind dream. Even as a 9-year-old, I knew it was wrong for the law to make blacks go to particular schools. It was wrong then. It is wrong still." I trust you recognize that I clearly condemned Jim Crow on both moral and Constitutional grounds. If you weren't a fellow West Virginian, I might have to get mad. Kent Davis |
|
17 Jul 07 - 12:38 AM (#2104849) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey Bobert: You really don't know but you are going to say yes, no or just give a fuzzy answer that makes you seem like it came true even if you don't know? I hate to always be the splinter in the middle of your screed board but it takes a friend to tell you your fly is open or you have bad breath you know. |
|
17 Jul 07 - 09:31 AM (#2105088) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly Kent, Your patience is admirable but your intelligent reason is wasted. Bobert has one way of looking at race -- if you don't agree that blacks should be taken care of because they cannot care for themselves, somehow in Bobert's world, that makes you the racist. Yeah, I know. |
|
17 Jul 07 - 12:10 PM (#2105169) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: M.Ted This discussion is disheartening because it show that generally, folks have a very low level of understanding , both of history and of the Constitution on this issue. This is not a BS/"INMHO" issue--This question has torn at the foundations of our Country from it's beginnings, and it may yet rip them apart. At a very minimum, before posting any more, you should get some background on the issue here: Brown vs. Board of Education Summary . Let know one be deceived--their is no resolution to this problem to be found in the Constitution. Our founding fathers tried to find a way to resolve question of slavery that document, and they could not. We live with the legacy of their failure. |
|
17 Jul 07 - 06:53 PM (#2105435) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Bug off, John... I have never said that blacks need to be taken care of.. That's just a bunch of bukll just like yer bud, Kent's, illogic is asying that "race" cannot be used as a factor in desegregating schools... Pure unalterd, 180 proof bull... How else are y6ou gonna intergrate/desegregate schools if "race" cannot be used as a variable in getting the job done??? No one seems to have an answer to this ver basic question.... Lotta double speak but no answers... Is this what you folks want you kids and grandkids to remember about how you all responded when Brown was overturned... No double speak and legal-ese changes this... Four discenting Suprmes with more expeerience in Consitutional law in their finger nail clippins than the entirity of the Mudburg kingdom agree with what I am saying here... Go argue with them... You will *******not******* ever, ever, ever, ever convince me that the Robert's Court ruling will do anything but make intergartion/desegregation harder... Not will you convince 4 Suprme Court justices... But go on with yer double-speak and illogic... I'll be back in a couple days strictly to read your post pattin' one another on the back for a job well done... But right now, screw it... I'm off to Elkins, WV, to do my annual "battle of the bluesman" at Blues Week.... Maybe by the time you get back you all will have welts on yer backs for patting each other's backs so hard... Shame on you all... And no, I don't owe anyone an apology who supports the Robert's decision so if yer waitin' for it, better pack a lotta clothes... Bobert |
|
17 Jul 07 - 09:24 PM (#2105523) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Looks like I ain't done yet... Yup... Here's what the argument boils down to in the simpliest terms... Here's what you tell the balck kid who is tryin' to get an education in a schoolother than a Black school"... BTW, intergration/desegregation ain't been workin' for a long time... There are still black schools and there are white schools all over America... But never mind that little bit of factoid crap.... Here what you, as friggin' supposed adults, tell little Brenda on why she cannot attend a predominantly white school: "Ahhhhh, now we know how hard you have worked an' we know that you would likie to attend the school over on the other side of town but the mean ol' Supreme Court won't let color'eds attend that school because, ahhhhh, if they did then they would have to take into account that you is, ahhhh, color'eds... Now we sho uff weould love to havwe you attend the other school but them mean ol' judees would have us fired... You understand, don't y6a' Brenda... We're just trying to obey the law...." This is the argument I'm hearing here... It's racist... It's un-American... It's absolutely mind boggling... This ain't America... This is Germany in 1937... This is soem very fu*ked up rationaizations... I don't wnat to hear your refrasing of the same dumb-ass brownshirt reasoning... I want to hear you tell me your big friggin' ideas on how to intergrate/desegregate our school system... No more crap... Now I am going to go pack for Blues Week... Bobert |
|
17 Jul 07 - 09:44 PM (#2105535) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Kent Davis Have a great time. It's been interesting. Kent Davis |
|
17 Jul 07 - 10:38 PM (#2105550) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: M.Ted Play a couple of flatted fifths for me, Bobert. In the meantime, I am handing out reading assignments. Specifically, the Seattle decision, here: Recent Supreme Court Decisions . It's a PDF, the third one down, dated 6/28/07, Docket number 05-908. Before any of of the rest of you wax on, I suggest you read Justice Roberts' decision, in it's entirety, followed by dissenting opinions of Justices Stevens and Breyers, which are also in the file. Your opinions will be worth a little more when you know what you're talking about. |
|
18 Jul 07 - 03:52 PM (#2106161) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey Hey Bobert, what is wrong with a black school anyway? Are black people inferior or something? |
|
19 Jul 07 - 06:03 PM (#2107168) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Only in yer mind, Dickey... And thanks, Ted... Had a ball... Played until 3:30 this mornin'... The last bit with Phil Wiggins of Cephas and Wiggins... After leaoding up gear and finding my harp player, got back to the Cheat River Lodge 'round 4:00, got a little over 4 hours sleep and just got home... I'm beat... |
|
19 Jul 07 - 08:08 PM (#2107256) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: M.Ted I thought you'd be gone a week! Anyway, sounds like you had fun--I guess "blues" must be one of those oxymorons:-) |
|
19 Jul 07 - 08:22 PM (#2107265) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Very much is, Ted... The lues as a genre is cellibratory... OKay, in the 20's when it first was recorded it was by folks who were glad to survive yet another 6 day work week on the plantation... Plantation, Bobert??? Yeah... Plantations... That what I've been talking about... There are still millions of black folk in our country who were alive during the Jim Crow days... Yeah, the racist white folks who have been pissed off since Brown V Topeka Board of Ed. now can be comforted by a racist court whothink just like them... I'm seein' more and more of history repeating itself and firmly believe that our country is headed down the tibes as the great "role model"... We are no longer moving forward with the lone exception being corporate profits that don't trickle down to the working class who do the real work behind them... Other than that, the country is in reverse gear at a time when the rest of the world seems to be moving forward... If people think that this decision isn't anything to be concerened about, I'd suggest that those folks read the discenting opionins for a better understanding of what we are really talking about here... Impeach John Roberts!!! Bobert |
|
19 Jul 07 - 09:49 PM (#2107313) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Bobert - We seem to be asking the same people who elected GWB to a second term to impeach the showcase of his administration, John Roberts. I think it's time to go back to the drawing board and figure out how GWB got re-elected in the first place. I didn't vote for him, and nobody I know voted for him. The whole thing looks pretty fishy to me. But I think we're stuck with the mindless Roberts for a very long time. |
|
20 Jul 07 - 12:10 PM (#2107662) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Simple, Ted... Lawyers and corrupt voting practices in a country that says democracy is some wonderful thing... 2000: Florida 2004: Ohio Same crap, different elections, different states... It si wonderous that exit polls, once a very accurate berometer of final tabulations no longer work??? Hmmmmmmm???? |
|
22 Jul 07 - 08:58 AM (#2108538) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey Bobert: I am still waiting for an answer. How about the DC school system. It is run by mostly black people and has a big budget so what is the problem? Can D.C. Schools Be Fixed? After decades of reforms, three out of four students fall below math standards. More money is spent running the schools than on teaching. And urgent repair jobs take more than a year . . . By Dan Keating and V. Dion Haynes Washington Post Staff Writers Sunday, June 10, 2007; Page A01 Kelly Miller Middle School opened its doors in a struggling Northeast Washington neighborhood in 2004, a $35 million showcase for the District's public schools, every classroom equipped with a whiteboard and computers. A particular source of pride was a media production room, where students could broadcast announcements and produce programs to be viewed on TVs wired in each classroom. Three years later, there have been no broadcasts. The room still needs a last, critical piece of equipment, which fell into a bureaucratic chasm. Until a few days ago, the principal had never been told what the part was or when it was coming. For now, the $150,000 production room is a storage closet for unused books and furniture. |
|
22 Jul 07 - 09:18 AM (#2108547) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger Dickey - What would be your solution to fix the DC shcool district? |
|
22 Jul 07 - 11:02 AM (#2108594) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Well, I, for one, think that Mayor Fenty is making the right moves... I think Janey had to go if for no other reason but he wasn't getting the job done... I do not disagree one bit that the D.C. school system has over the years become bogged down with way too many managers who mismanage and too few good tachers... Fenty has also hired a contracting firm with a proven track record to address the problems of getting the actual school buildings back into decent shape... This is a good start and my hat is off to him... Now he'll have to boot out some entrenched middle managers who do purdy much nuthin'... And he may have to work real hard with the Democratic D.C. Appropriations Committee and see if D.C. can get the funds (or use it's own, with permission) to explore optin' outta "No Clild Left Behind"... Bobert |
|
22 Jul 07 - 11:38 PM (#2108960) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey Bobert: They got the funds. What does the Supreme court decision have to do with the inefficiency of DC schools? Washington DC public schools spend an average of $12046 per student each year. Spending per secondary school student (Latest available) by country #1 Switzerland: $9,348.00 per student #2 Austria: $8,163.00 per student #3 United States: $7,764.00 per student #4 Norway: $7,343.00 per student #5 Denmark: $7,200.00 per student #6 France: $6,605.00 per student #7 Italy: $6,458.00 per student #8 Germany: $6,209.00 per student #9 Japan: $5,890.00 per student #10 Australia: $5,830.00 per student #11 Sweden: $5,648.00 per student #12 Netherlands: $5,304.00 per student #13 United Kingdom: $5,230.00 per student #14 Israel: $5,115.00 per student #15 Portugal: $4,636.00 per student #16 Spain: $4,274.00 per student #17 Ireland: $3,934.00 per student #18 Greece: $3,287.00 per student #19 Czech Republic: $3,182.00 per student #20 Hungary: $2,140.00 per student #21 Thailand: $1,177.00 per student source |
|
23 Jul 07 - 12:42 AM (#2108976) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,dianavan You're statistics mean absolutely nothing. "Public school revenue and expenditures vary by school district but Washington DC public schools spend an average of $12,046 per student each year." Expenditures vary by district and if you look at the median price of houses in each area, you can just about guess where the majority of the funding goes. I believe that socio-economic class has far more to do with the quality of the neighborhood school. Lets face it, if you have enough money to buy a home in an upscale neighborhood, it doesn't matter what colour your skin might be, you will be given an excellent education in the same school as your neighbor's kids. If you are rich enough, the colour of your skin is not a barrier to anything. Thats why I think discussion of racial differences is a dead-end. Its your socio-economic class that makes a difference. It all depends on where you can afford to live. Mixed (affordable) housing should be available in every neighborhood and there should be no barriers based on race. This can be planned at the city level and funded by all levels of government. The integration of schools will take care of itself. |
|
23 Jul 07 - 12:52 AM (#2108984) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Q (Frank Staplin) "Mixed (affordable) housing should be available in every neighborhood...." Impossible. |
|
23 Jul 07 - 07:50 AM (#2109126) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly Lots of interesting reading in the M.Ted linked Supreme Court documents. Essentially, the court didn't change anything -- its ruling was consistant with the Constitution AND previous rulings. It just found that -- IN THAT CASE -- the Seattle schools were doing it wrong. One of the most telling and egregious errors made was in racial classifications that over-simplified it to "White and Non-white" or "Black and "Other"". What the #$%%^& ?! So the only meaningful distinctions to the Seattle-ites was whether a student was black?! ...in a country -- and especially a region of that country -- with more races than you could shake a very big stick at?! If you were black, how could you be anything but offended? |
|
23 Jul 07 - 08:06 AM (#2109136) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly A strict constructionist court sees that, according to the constitution, Friday the 13th must occur on the 13th of the month, and must also be on a Friday. When a case comes before such a court because some plaintiff wishes to cast spells, or walk their black cat only on Friday the 13th, but finds the few Friday the 13ths that occur during a year overly-limiting to their chosen activity, a strict constructionist court rules against them. They see no other choice because it is not the court's Contitutional right to change the Constitution. It can only rule on the Constitution AS WRITTEN AND DULY LEGISLATED. The spell-casters and cat walkers go away mad but the Constitution keeps its "teeth". An activist court sees that people wish to walk their black cats and cast their spells and they see no harm in the activities. So they rule that Friday the 13th could, heretofor, occur on either Thursday or Saturday. The 13th may also occur on the 12th or the 14th of the month. It's not the Supreme Court's right to arbitrarily decide to re-write the Constitution just because they think it is too limiting or wrong. If they think it is wrong....or the cat walkers think it is wrong....they must go back to the Legistlative branch to have the Constitution changed to make Friday the 13th occur on a day other than Friday the 13th. And the people don't IMPEACH a supreme court justice just because he rules Constitutionally. If the people don't like the Constitution, they have the right to change IT -- not the make up of the Supreme Court. |
|
23 Jul 07 - 11:54 AM (#2109311) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,dianavan Q - Nothing is impossible. What it would take is a national housing policy that pertains to all new housing developments. All new housing developments could include mixed income housing and/or not for profit housing. When you say its impossible, you are actually saying there is no will to make it so. |
|
23 Jul 07 - 01:15 PM (#2109380) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Impossible? No will to make it so? Both true. A home is an investment for most who move to home ownership; they try to buy in a neighborhood that will hold or increase in value, hence one in which the people who will be their neighbors hold similar values and similar life styles. We live in a capitalist country; those who work to climb the ladder succeed, those who don't remain behind in public housing or trailer parks. As Leo J. Hindley, successful manager of an equity fund is quoted as saying about the well-to-do (The New York Times, July 15, 2007, "The Richest of the Rich, Proud of a New Gilded Age," Louise Uchitelle), "I think there are people, including myself at certain times in my career, who because of their uniqueness warrant whatever the market will bear." |
|
23 Jul 07 - 01:55 PM (#2109405) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,dianavan "While the Supreme Court ruling makes voluntary school desegregation efforts more challenging, much can be done to integrate our housing markets and, therefore, to assure healthier, more diverse classrooms." http://www.knowledgeplex.org/news/603371.html |
|
23 Jul 07 - 03:15 PM (#2109473) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Q (Frank Staplin) A typical brainless socialist statement. Impossible in our society, as you well know. |
|
23 Jul 07 - 05:53 PM (#2109569) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Bite me, Dickey... First you ask me stupid questions that I ignore and you get all rightuosly indignant... Then you ask me a reasonable question that I did answer and you get righteously indignant... Find yerself another hobby other tha harrassing me with yer juvilineist posts... Bobert |
|
24 Jul 07 - 01:13 AM (#2109779) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,dianavan A typical response from another priveleged brat who thinks he's 'entitled'. "People who don't own property shouldn't be allowed to vote- they don't know how to take care of it and make it grow." - Q |
|
24 Jul 07 - 08:34 AM (#2109944) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Yeah, I think that diversifying neigborhoods is a noble goal but fear that the sme folks who don't wnat their kids to have to school with black kids will use the same arguments to keep black folks out of their communities... I mean, ahhhhhm their are am,ot of people like that... Okay, maybe in the folkie world things seem to be a tad rosier but that's because in the folkie world their isd a greaster degree of enlighentment than in the general population... Yeah, the folkie world does not mirror the general population... Just look around Mudcat, fir instance... I think it represnts the folkie world rather well and look at the number of folks here, for instance, who are Bush supporters??? Or have been Bush supporters... Not many... Certainly not even close to the number of folks it would take on a percentage basis to get an election close enough for Bush's thugs to steal... So, yeah, I would love to see our communities and neighborhoods more intergrated but it just ain't ghappening on a large scale and in some places, not at all... Bobert |
|
24 Jul 07 - 08:57 AM (#2109958) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey I was not aware that you could harass someone by asking questions Bobert. All I want to know is why the DC school system performs so poorly when they spend 50% more per student than the national average and if the supreme court has anything to do with it. You like to make broad sweeping incendiary staements but when it comes down to facts to support your statements you get hostile and have to resort to personal put downs. During 50+ years of Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, has the DC school system improved due to that decision? Maybe it is time for a new approach. And by the way it was Democrats, such as Wallace, Faubus and Bull Connor, that fought integration laws. |
|
24 Jul 07 - 09:08 AM (#2109966) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly Bobert, the only person on this thread who has even HINTED that they liked some segregation was the only black person participating herein. It was Azizi who said... "Three years later, at the start of a new school year, I was seated at the Black table. Why? I was SICK of the "what do Black people want?" and "Do Black people get sun tans" and a host of other assorted questions, some well meaning, and some not. I was also tired about not studying anything about me or MY PEOPLE except in reference to dysfunction families and dysfunctional community systems in sociology classes. I wanted to hang with Black people so I could shoot the breeze using words and sayings and cultural references that I did not have to explain. I wanted to kick back and relax and just be me. And so I sat at the lunch table with other Black students instead of sitting at the "integrated table". And that was just what the doctor [in me] ordered at that time and in that space." It isn't about whites wanting to segregate from blacks. It is quite often, and for their own reason, blacks who wish to segregate themselves. Recent studies have shown that, contrary to the "diversity" model that has been pushed on us as "better" for education, actually blacks in their own controlled schools are doing better academically without all the social engineering pressure that requires them to excel in a cultural setting that is an obstacle to their better learning. Y'know, the etymology of the word "Homophobic" has been lost to a lot of political rhetoric and has now come to mean something closer to "hating gays". But its origin was in the notion that the reason people disliked gays was that they were "homophobic" -- that is, they feared that they themselves were gay, and hence, tried ever harder to distance themselves from "gayness". Are you sure you aren't just a little "racistophobic"? Me thinks thou doest protest just a little too much for normal. |
|
24 Jul 07 - 12:55 PM (#2110189) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,dianavan "So, yeah, I would love to see our communities and neighborhoods more intergrated but it just ain't ghappening on a large scale and in some places, not at all..." - bobert The only way it will happen is if the city-planners make it happen by including mixed-income (affordable) housing in every neighborhood. Its not impossible. I don't think we can socially engineer integration but we can remove barriers. In fact, rather than discriminate on the basis of colour, those who wish to integrate, can. In Vancouver there are no neighborhoods based on colour. There are shopping areas that cater to specific cultures but the people live wherever they can afford to live. In some of our wealthiest areas, it is predominately Iranian or Chinese. As development occurs, affordable housing is mixed in with high-end residences. So far, nobody but the developers are protesting. Of course, this is not the deep South but I think it will also improve access to equal educational opportunities. Funding to schools will be more equitable and people will have choices. |
|
24 Jul 07 - 08:06 PM (#2110516) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert You are right, d... It is possible and thru comprhensive plans communities can do it... Problem is that city planners do what they are told... So if the will ain't there then their bosses, iusually town or city councils, ain't gonna tell 'um to do it... I really hate to say it but this is the real world... In Luray, Va. there is the black section and the rest is the white section... Benn that way for a long, long time... I know the town council and I know the town manager and I know that they are not going to tell the town planner to do anything like what you have suggested... Might of fact, I was asked to book a blues band from D.C. and never once gave any thou7ght to race so I booked the best blues band I knew of... They are black... Last weekend I was playin' at the local farmer's market and someone who had recieved a promo pic of the band came up to me and hasseled me about bookin' a black band??? This, unfortunately, is the real world in lots of communities accress the country... Now as for you, Dickey... First of all, you need to study up on your American History... The Dixiecrats were nuthin' but a bunch of racists... They were Klansmen... They represented hate, hate and more hate... And what are you trying to say about the D.C. school sysytem??? Hey, have I ever defended either the black or Democratic administering of the D.C. school system in the past??? No, I haven't... Might of fact, I think it was you who I offerd to pick up at the airport and give you a little tour of D.C. in regards to poverty.... No, if you'd friggin' read what I say rather than invent what I say then you wouldn't have all these questions whioch aren't really questions at all but, for the most part, juvinilistic attacks on me... And John, It's always easy to say, "Hey, them niggas just don't want to hang with us..." I've heard this crap since the 60's... Well, this ain't just a black problem or a white problem... It's an intergral part of intergration... Yeah, their is curiousty... Their is a certain clumsiness... But that goes with the teritory... The alternative is segregation... Hey, we've have close to 400 years segregation... If you are for segregation then fine... Just say it... I'd respect that alot more than trying to hide what you feel behind alot of legal mumbo jumbo and red herrings... In regards to the Robert's decision, Justice Breyer said "To invalidate the plans under review is to threaten the promise of Brown, The purality's position, I fear, would break the promise..." Go argue with him or tell me why you think you understand the law more than him... Then Justice Breyer said, "It's not often in the law that so few have so quickly changed so much..." I concur with both of those statements... Bobert |
|
25 Jul 07 - 12:56 AM (#2110640) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,dianavan "Last weekend I was playin' at the local farmer's market and someone who had recieved a promo pic of the band came up to me and hasseled me about bookin' a black band???" - bobert I'm sorry to hear that, bobert. I had no idea that people in North America could be so backward and ignorant. In Vancouver, we have a process called community visioning. As citizens, we get together with the planners and decide what we want our neighborhoods to look like in the next twenty years. That includes housing, traffic, parks, businesses, etc. Of course there are always developers who try to push the envelope but luckily, there are enough of us who are active and vocal. It seems to me that it is the ignorant and short-sighted people of the U.S. who are electing the politicians. Maybe democracy wasn't such a good idea after-all. Maybe thats why the U.S. is crumbling. When will they realize that hatred is destructive to everyone, not just the target. Its like they are eating themselves alive. I guess you can say they deserve it. |
|
25 Jul 07 - 01:11 AM (#2110642) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,dianavan Just did a little googling about schools in the States and found that one of the reasons that academics suffer is because in the 'poorest' schools many of the teachers are not certified. Whats up with that? The American taxpayer can afford billions for a senseless war but they think so little of their children that they don't even hire certified teachers! What do think school is, a babysitting service? Whats it take to become certified anyway? In Canada, a bachelor of education takes about five years, including a year of professional development. You mean to tell me that there are people teaching your kids that do not have the credentials? You call that education? Shame! |
|
25 Jul 07 - 01:21 AM (#2110644) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey Bobert: I read what you friggin said and it said nothing about what effect the Supreme Court's decision will have on anything. It is just a bunch of racist, biggoted crap about Jim Crow and has nothing to do with the present. It is designed to stir up an argument over nothing just like a Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton speech. Hate Hate Hate. Yeah drag that SOB Roberts out here and let's lynch him right here and now. And I don't need to fly into my old stomping grounds, 30 miles away sosomeone with a 1960's mentality can try to reconstitue and stir up shit that dried up 20 years ago. Any effect that Brown VS Board could have done or did do has taken effect long ago snd it's time for a diffrent approach. If integration has not proceed to satisfy you, why don't you set a good example for all of us and move down to 14th and U street? You sir are the racist because you insist on treating people of different races differently. As in "If you are white you have to go to this school and if you are black you have to go to that school" It is the constant, hateful accusations like yours that promotes the hostility that keeps people segregated. Maybe after your generation dies off, things will settle down and we will be truely integrated rather than the artificial, forced integration that causes the racial hatred you thrive on. |
|
25 Jul 07 - 07:13 AM (#2110751) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly Bobert, I find this... " It's always easy to say, "Hey, them niggas just don't want to hang with us..." INCREDIBLY offensive. I NEVER <<<<<------ARE YOU READING THIS?! ...I mean NEVER use the "N" word. NEVER. Your implication that I do, or that I even think of blacks in those terms is, again, INCREDIBLY offensive. Get over yourself and your self-righteous bigotry. |
|
25 Jul 07 - 09:52 AM (#2110873) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: artbrooks Dianavan, under the "No Child Left Behind" law, certified has taken on a whole new meaning. All teachers must have, at the minimum, a baccalaureate, and that is no change. This difference is the subject-matter requirement: to teach History, for example, the teacher must have a history degree; English, an English degree and so forth. This is in addition to the individual's credentials as a teacher. A person with an Education BA who has been teaching history for the past twenty years can continue to do so, but he or she can no longer be "certified" in the subject without returning to college and taking at some subject-matter courses (in the copious free time available to the typical teacher). As you can visualize, this is a major problem at smaller schools where an individual may teach classes in more than one discrete subject. It seems ridiculous to me that I, with a couple of degrees in history but no public school teaching experience, would have an easier time getting certified to teach that subject at the secondary school level than a person who has been teaching high school history for his entire lifetime but whose degree is in public education! |
|
25 Jul 07 - 09:57 AM (#2110880) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly "It seems ridiculous to me that I, with a couple of degrees in history but no public school teaching experience, would have an easier time getting certified to teach that subject at the secondary school level than a person who has been teaching high school history for his entire lifetime but whose degree is in public education!" In all honesty, why? You're "seems ridiculous" assertion assumes: 1) That the teacher who has been "Teaching...history for his entire lifetime" has been doing so successfully. 2) Your knowledge and experience as a lifetime learner would stand you in poor stead as a teacher. |
|
25 Jul 07 - 10:15 AM (#2110895) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger "2) Your knowledge and experience as a lifetime learner would stand you in poor stead as a teacher." If you were teaching graduate classe to adults at a university, the kinds of degrees that artbrooks seems to be talking about would be perfectly in order. But if you are teaching young children, the difficult art of teaching, and a knowledge of human development is more important. You are normally teaching American History, or State/Regional History, so an extensive knowledge of ancient Persia wouldn't do you a lot of good. |
|
25 Jul 07 - 10:48 AM (#2110935) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly I found it interesting that when I was taking the education courses for my teaching certification in art (a field in which I'd already spent more that 20 years), I couldn't help but notice that the natural teachers already understood, by common sense, that children learned differently from adults. And those who were not natural teachers were in no way helped past this lack of natural ability by informing them that children learn differently. |
|
25 Jul 07 - 01:18 PM (#2111049) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger But would an indepth knowledge of Art History, of instance, help you teach a group of 7 year olds who were learning to finger-paint? |
|
25 Jul 07 - 03:14 PM (#2111132) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Clarification: NCLB current requirements (Act of 2001)- "(1) IN GENERAL- eash local educational agency receiving assistance under this part shall insure that all paraprofessionals hired after the date of enactment of the No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 and working in a program supported with funds under this part shall have- (A) completed at least two years of study at an institution of higher education; (B) obtained an associate's (or higher) degree; or (C) met a rigorous standard of quality and can demonstrate, through a formal State of local academic assessment- (i) knowledge of, and the ability to assist in instructing, reading, reading, writing, and mathematics; or (ii) knowledge of, and the ability to assist in instructing, reading readiness, writing readiness, and mathematics readiness, as appropriate. (2)CLARIFICATION- The receipt of a secondary school diploma (or its recognized equivalent) shall be necessary but not sufficient to satisfy the requirements of paragraph (1)(C)." ------------------------------------------------ NCLB Act 2007 (not yet enacted) "The No Child Left Behind Act (NCLB) recognizes this. The law requires that all teachers of core academic subjects in the classroom be highly qualified. This is determined by three essential criteria: (1) attaining a bachelor's degree or better in the subject taught; (2) obtaining full state teacher certification; and (3) demonstrating knowledge in the subjects taught." Find the full documents here: http://www.ed.gov/nclb/landing.jhtml NCLB |
|
25 Jul 07 - 03:46 PM (#2111168) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly "But would an indepth knowledge of Art History, of instance, help you teach a group of 7 year olds who were learning to finger-paint?" You're setting up a false choice/question. Simply answered, fingerpainting isn't taught. |
|
25 Jul 07 - 04:04 PM (#2111184) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger What would you call it? |
|
25 Jul 07 - 04:28 PM (#2111212) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Fingerpainting, in Canada, anyway, may be 'taught' in Kindergarten, but by age 7, the student should be using pencil and brush. Requirements for a BEd are more or less equivalent but differ across Canada. The basic Bachelor Ed. for the Elementary teaching route is a four-year program. At The University of Alberta- "In the first two years of the 4-year BEd program, students complete non-education courses in seven specific elements that provide a necessary breadth in content background. Core requirements include courses in educational psychology and 13 weeks of field training. In addition to the core requirements, students select a minor consisting of 18 to 24 units of course weight. Fourteen minors are listed; including: Native Studies, Math/Science, Music, Social Studies, English as a Second Language, Second Languages, Language, etc. A Diploma course (1 yr.) is offered, requirements are completion of the above, plus a valid teaching certificate. |
|
25 Jul 07 - 05:40 PM (#2111272) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert D, In the US all it takes is Bacelor's Degree in Eductation which can be achieved in 4 years... 124 credit hours... In Virgina, and this may be the same in most or every state, one semester of student teaching is also required... Now here's where it gets tricky.... The actual number of credit hours required to teach various subjects is somewhat fuzzy... My 1st degree was a Bachelors in Eductaion... I was certified to teach governemnt, history and economics at any high school in VIginia... Problem was that I only had 2 sememsters of economics with the bulk of my credits being in American History and Political Science... However, with just 2 semesters of Economices I was certified to teach it??? But I really don't think that mattersd as much as what kind of teachers we have... Some folks can teach, others can't... And teaching folks to teach was hardly on the radar when I was in college... I don't recall how many credit hours I had in eductaion but when you take away student teaching, which was around 12 credits, there weren't many eductaion credits required... BTW, d. I really admire the way your community operates... Mine is a million miles from that level of civil-ization... Dickey, Either you quit calling me a "bigot" or a "racist" or I'll have Joe Offer have you investigated and bring charges against you criminally for harrassment... Pure and simple... You don't think it can happen??? Where's Martin Gibson... John, I didn't ***say*** that ***you***, ***John Hardly*** made that statement... Did I??? You are granstanding here with yer righteous indination... Bobert |
|
25 Jul 07 - 05:49 PM (#2111280) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly I didn't ***say*** that ***you***, ***John Hardly*** made that statement... Did I??? Yes, you did. |
|
25 Jul 07 - 06:33 PM (#2111308) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert |
|
25 Jul 07 - 06:44 PM (#2111320) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert No, JOhn... Reread... Waht I said is that's it easy to say... It was a generalized statement about some folks inour society... I didn't say that you said it... It was an observation... Not a direct quote of yours... You perfectly well know the difference... You ain't no stupmo... You are just using what I said to grandstand... Pure and simple... (But, Bobert... Maybe John doesn't know the difference...) Bull, he knoews perfectly well... What he doesn't like is for someone to call into question his and others motivations in supporting the Robert's court decision... Yeah, there are a lot of folks who hate ingtergration who hide behind this rather thinly veiled "Oh geeze, if only that mean ol' court would let my kids go to school with black kids" crap... (But, Bobert... Now John will say that you said that he said that...) No, I didn't say that John said that... What I am asking is purdy danged simple here... John, Do you believe that schools should be intergarted??? Do you believe segregattion is wrong??? And lastly, if your answer to the above two questions is "yes" then how does a society go about doing that if "race" cannot be figured into the plans that bring these about??? Pure and simple... Lets get this stuff out on the table, once andor all, and leave all this Robert's/Alito mumbo jumbo alone... Let's talk turkey... Bobert |
|
25 Jul 07 - 08:06 PM (#2111373) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger "...leave all this Robert's/Alito mumbo jumbo alone..." Why? Roberts and Alito are clowns. Don't you think we needed a little humor on the Supreme Court? |
|
25 Jul 07 - 08:22 PM (#2111380) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert LOL, Rig-ster... Personally, I have always felt that Clarence Thomas is the real clown... Now, there's more clowns than Carter has liver pills... I understood the Warren Court... But not these guys... They think they are like, ahhhhhhhh, 2/3's of the governemnt... Talk about activism Nevermind... Bong hits for Scottie and... ...beam me up... Bobert |
|
25 Jul 07 - 11:26 PM (#2111487) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Azizi John Hardly, with regard to your 24 Jul 07 - 09:08 AM post: I wrote that at a particular period of time during my college years at an overwhelmingly White college, I "sat at the lunch table with other Black students instead of sitting at the "integrated table". I also wrote that "that was just what the doctor [in me] ordered at that time and in that space." Note that I said "at that time and in that space". I did not say "all the time". I also did not say that I was forced to sit at a certain table or prohibited from sitting at another table. I think that it's important to note that I made a VOLUNTARY decision about an action in a SOCIAL SETTING and not in an academic setting. While the location of the lunch room table was in the cafetaria of a federally funded college, the students concerned did not have the power or the desire to enforce a ruling that only Black people could enter the cafetaria at a certain time or that no non-Black people could be served or that the food or service for non-Black people would be inferior to the food and service for Black people. Fwiw, I see nothing wrong with students VOLUNTARILY deciding to join organizations with persons of the same race/ethnicity or VOLUNTARILY deciding to room with people of the same race/ethnicity or VOLUNTARILY deciding to sit and eat with persons of the same race/ethnicity-particularly if most of their academic-and many of their social interactions-are with persons "outside" of their race/ethnicity. As long as these organizations don't exclude persons of other races/ethnicities, or people aren't prohibited from sitting at a certain table, then I think it's their own choice and their own business. However, I believe that it would have been [and still is] not only wrong, but illegal if students, or college personnel segregated other students in classrooms, laboratories, or other academic settings by race, ethnicity, gender, religion, sexual orientation, or for whatever reasons except those based upon academic criteria. I also think it would be wrong and illegal to segregate students by race/ethnicity/religion in college dormitories and in social organizations which receive money from the college or receive city, state, and/or federal monies. John Hardly, with regard to your statement that "It isn't about whites wanting to segregate from blacks. It is quite often, and for their own reason, blacks who wish to segregate themselves", I'm not going to attempt to quantify which groups of individuals wish to segregate themselves more. Besides not having a clue what the wishes of 20 million or more Black people are and the wishes of how many million White people are, it seems to me that what is important is to safeguard the rights of people to have racially diverse experiences in institutions that receive public funding or are supported in part or in whole by tax dollars. Finally, John, I have concerns about your statements that "Recent studies have shown that, contrary to the "diversity" model that has been pushed on us as "better" for education, actually blacks in their own controlled schools are doing better academically without all the social engineering pressure that requires them to excel in a cultural setting that is an obstacle to their better learning." I find these statements to be too simplistic. For instance "which studies?" And what "diversity model"? And who is the "us" that this model [or models] have been pushed on? And who is doing the pushing and why? Also what is meant by "blacks in their own controlled schools"? And what in the world is meant by the sentence that these "blacks" are "doing better academically without all the social engineering pressure that requires them to excel in a cultural setting that is an obstacle to their better learning." I've no doubt that there have been times that some Black students in segregated schools did better academically than some Black students in integregated schools. However, there might be any number of reasons why students in one type of school would have better academic records than students in another type of school. For instance, I'm curious about how the curriculums between these two types of schools differed, how these schools were funded, what the economic status was of the each schools' students, and what the faculty composition by race/ethnicity and gender was in these schools. In case there is any doubt, let me take this opportunity to state for the record that I strongly believe in racial diversity and other forms of multiculturalism in educational settings -and other settings. Furthermore, I strongly believe that multiculturalism should be not only valued, but also taught, promoted, facilitated, and safeguarded. |
|
25 Jul 07 - 11:33 PM (#2111493) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: GUEST,dianavan Q - Your first paragraph deals with paraprofessionals. Paraprofessionals are not accredited teachers, they are considered support staff (special educ. assistants, alternate program workers, etc.) Teachers are professionals. The second paragraph (NDLC) sounds similar to what is required in B.C. but you can obtain a bachelor of education with a major in the subject you wish to teach at the secondary level. An additional year (three terms) of professional development is also required. This includes upper level education courses and three practicums. The only problem I see with the NDLC is that it does not seem to include courses specific to teaching. Fingerpainting may not be something that is 'taught' but try managing 20 or so children on how to share space, use the materials appropriately and do their share of the clean-up. After the paintings are dry, they must then discuss the image with the teacher or with the group. Then, of course, you must assess the lesson according to criteria that was previously set. Most artists would have a very difficult time managing the lesson let alone the behaviours that occur when some children use paint. While teaching all of this, don't forget that at least 20% of the class have individual needs that must be met. These needs include behaviour, medical, vision, hearing, autism, etc. Knowledge of a subject is definitely important at the secondary level but at the elementary level, it is far more important to understand child development and to be able to manage a variety of behaviours. Its a delicate balance creating a classroom environment where all children feel safe enough to learn. If they don't learn the social skills required as part of a group, it won't matter how much the secondary teacher knows about a subject. Nobody can teach or learn in a chaotic environment. NCLB needs to pay more attention to teacher education at the elementary level and more money needs to be spent on early childhood development. NCLB is just another feeble attempt to put out the fire. |
|
26 Jul 07 - 07:36 AM (#2111646) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly So you're for volitional segregation but forced integration. How, exactly, does that work? You get to segregate when and where you wish -- except when the government tells you that you can't? As to the story of the all black schools, I think it was a 60 Minutes segment. As to "diversity" and "multiculturalism" I just don't care. I don't think you could STOP our country from being multi-cultural. I'm all for learning the best that any subculture has to offer. I don't give a damn if some subculture wants to participate in some practice as long as it doesn't adversely affect me or my rights. I'm part of a subculture -- Christian. I don't expect ANYONE to take communion with me. Bobert, I am the king of the typo. I rarely, if ever, submit a post without a typo in it. But even I cannot understand a word of your last post. I think that what you are proposing, though, is that a person cannot be simultaneously against forced integration (in any way), and not be a racist. That is a false choice. And, in fact, there is far more racist thought and intent (albeit unwitting) in the "well-meaning" forced integration. Forced integration is almost always proposed by those who think one or another group (usually blacks) are incapable of thriving on their own without governmental aid. The only time when forced integration makes sense is when it has to do with equal access to goods and services provided by the government. And in that case, race plays very little role. And, curiously, those goods and services provided by the government also have very little to do with good education. I live in a county where the smallest, poorest elementary school was WAY outstripping the other schools in the county, despite a fifty-year-old facility and the poorest kids in the county. In fact, that poorest school ranked as one of the top scholastically in the State -- while the other, newer schools with the rich kids did not make the list of top schools in the State. Curiously, it became an embarrassment to the school administrators -- it flew in the face of asking for ever more money that the least provided for school performed the best. So they closed that school and integrated the children into the other schools. Now the poorest kids in the county have the farthest to travel each day to schools where they no longer get the attention that they did in their old school. But the blessed school board no longer faces the embarrassment of an over-achieving, under-funded school. |
|
26 Jul 07 - 08:04 AM (#2111658) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Azizi John Hardly, I suppose that the first part of your 26 Jul 07 - 07:36 AM comment was directed to me. My response to you would be that yes, there are certain circumstances and certain settings when I feel it is acceptable and legal for individuals to use their free will to congregate where and with whom they want, and other circumstances and settings where it is not acceptable and legal to do so. It seems to me that at least one criteria for distinguishing when such "voluntary segregation" is whether the individuals are congregating in a public institution {and not at street corner}, whether that public institution or facility receives any city, county, state, federal funding; and whether the institution or facility prohibits persons from entering, and fully participating in an integrated manner, i.e. whether discrimination occurs within that facility on the basis of criteria that is not allowed by ammedments to our [USA] constitutions and laws. I don't think having a table where some Black students encourage other Black students to sit but where they are not forced to sit [or having a table where Jewish students; or geeks, or football players, or cheerleaders, or members of a particul sorority or fraternity sit-or where certain people who have shared experiences and interests] sit within a public university cafetaria- is de facto against the law. Of course, I'm not a civil rights attorney. Nor have I ever played one on television. And I didn't sleep last night in a Holiday Inn hotel {or whatever ad this half-remembered script comes from}. |
|
26 Jul 07 - 08:32 AM (#2111671) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly "... and whether the institution or facility prohibits persons from entering, and fully participating in an integrated manner" exactly. No school that I know of is prohibiting persons of any color from entering. THAT would be illegal. ....well....except that, when the government interferes by forcing integration, THEN people ARE prohibited from entering the school of their choice. That is exactly why the supreme court ruled against the forced social engineering in Seattle. It was determined that, on the basis of race alone children were forced into a school not of their choice -- or said as you worded it -- children were prohibited entry to the school of their choice on the basis of race alone. |
|
26 Jul 07 - 08:57 AM (#2111684) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Azizi John, there you go with that "forced social engineering" lingo. I'd love to continue to exchange comments with you, but I gotta go out of town and may not be near a computer for a while. I leave it to other folks to respond to your comments if they care to. Best wishes to all and to all a good day. Azizi |
|
26 Jul 07 - 10:24 AM (#2111769) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey Bobert: Do you or do you not believe that people of different races should be treated differently? I do not. Do you believe that people should be sent to different schools based on their race? I do not. Therefore I believe the Supreme Court's decision was correct regardless of who appointed Roberts. I believe this thread is just an inflamatory statement. A stink bomb of yours designed to stir up an argument. Then when you get the argument you get hostile and make threats. If I am wrong, be direct and tell me where I am wrong instead of attacking with personal insults and threats. |
|
26 Jul 07 - 11:12 AM (#2111811) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert No, Dickey... You have turned it into a stink bomb... But that is yer forte'.... When I use the term "racist" I don't use it as a ***Noun*** but an adjective... There is a major difference... In a discussion or race the term "racist" is not necessarily a bad thing except when it is used as a noun... Your repeted use of calling me a bigot and/or racist because I don't agree with you7 or the Robert's decision is beyond any stink bomb that I could evr conjure up... If you were to call me that to my face, I would punch you out... And you can take that to the bank... I'll match my life's work in the field of civil rights with yours anyday of the week... Now if you want to rephrase that in ***your opinion*** that my opinions seem racist of bigoted, fine... But I will not have you call me a racist (noun) or a bigot (noun)... It is not only beyond hatefull and inflamatory but just might be considered criminal considering yer stalking me here in Mudcat... If you think not, PM Joe Offer and gets his thoughts... Azizi, Thanks for your thoughtfull posts... This is really what it comes down to... Products and serices (John's term, I think...) that are paid for from taxes paid for by all which are not equally avilable in a multicultural/diverse manner to all... And I understand that sometimes folks just want to be with folks (within that multicultural/diverse environment) who are of the same race, or religion, or whatever... That is not segregation... And that is not what we are talking about here... What we are talking about here is the wholesale desegregation of publicly financed schools... I've asked John how that can be acheived if race cannot be factored in but as yet haven't heard anything that makes sense... Lotta smoke and mirrors but no concrete plan... Bobert |
|
26 Jul 07 - 09:23 PM (#2112264) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger "I'm part of a subculture -- Christian." There it is. There's the problem. |
|
26 Jul 07 - 10:06 PM (#2112281) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Now, now, now, Rig-ster.... It's okay to be Christian as long as ij doing so one accepts the very basic premise that others may not share one's "Faith"... In spite of my threatenin' to punch Dickey out, I am also a follower of Christ... I think of the Dickey's of the world as the money changers in the temple... I'm sure that Jesus was outta his mind over them... But, when we speak of intergration, there is a big ol' tent for all those who have a "belief system"... Let's just get in that tent an' talk... Many of tyhe world's problems would just go away if folks would do just that... B~ |
|
27 Jul 07 - 09:37 AM (#2112573) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Dickey I believe that people should be able to go to school where they live. I believe that it is wrong to force people to go elsewhere regardless of their race or religion. To force them to go to a certain place based on their race is forced desegregation. This forced desegregation causes racial hatred and hostility far beyond what occurs with de facto segregation. What does this have to do with Jesus and the money changers in the temple? What is so wrong with predominately black schools? If they are not working the logical thing to do would be to fix them. Pouring more and more money into them has not helped. The DC school system spend 50% above the national average. The problem is an inefficient bureaucratic system, low teacher salaries and a lack of parental participation. Education is the key to reducing poverty, not rearranging where people go to school. Civil rights leaders should concentrate their efforts on improving the schools and getting parents involved rather than blaming problems on someone else which stirs up more racial hatred and deepening the problem. |
|
27 Jul 07 - 10:37 AM (#2112638) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Bobert Well, if our communities aren't intergrated then how is going to school where one lives going to bring about an integrated school system??? "The is a democratic element: an interest in producing an educational environment that reflects the "pluralistic society" in which our children will live. It is an interest in helping our children learn to work and play together with children of different racial backgrounds. It is an interest in teaching children to engage in the kind of cooperation among Americans of all races that is necessary to make a land of three hundred million one Nation" (Justice Breyer) I concur and I also believe that thuis decision is going to come back and haunt not only our nation, the conservative movenemnt and the Republican Party... I believe that most Americans don't wnat to reture to segregated schools... That's what you get when you have kids going to the neigborhood schools unless we are willing to take a mamouth step in creaating diverse communities... If you think the conservatives have been livid in the past just try doing that... No, the real issue the desegregation/intergartyion of our schools... I have yet to hear any argument/idea on how that can be done if "race" cannot be "a" factor in determining how this can be done... Yea, I wholehearted support imporving our schools form top to bottom... I believe that "No Child Left Behind" needs to be reviewed so that kids aren't being turned into fact regurgitating machines but can't actally, think and reason and create... I believe that teachers as grossly underpaid and that if they were paid more we would get higher quality people staying in the profession and not leaving in a few years because they can make a lot more money elsewhere... But, and I know that some folks here are sick and tired on me harping on this, Justice Breyer and I are very concerned that the cuurent court is using some very weak logic in opening a big, big loophole that will allow communites to resegregate... This is shamefull.... Bobert |
|
27 Jul 07 - 11:31 AM (#2112669) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: John Hardly Most of America has moved on, Bobert. Most of America doesn't even give a second thought to whether their school is or isn't integrated. Most of America, unlike you, doesn't make judgements about the value of people based on their skin color. So most of America lives with the mixed society that has naturally occurred over the past 200 years. We don't care. We intermarry without a second thought. We work side by side. We go to school side by side. We don't care anymore. It is a non-issue with everyone but the race-baters like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and a news media who can still make a buck from the PERCEPTION of strife. We don't think that as white people, blacks need us to complete their cultural experience. And we don't believe that we need blacks or orientals or any other group to complete ours. We're all part of a bigger, ever-changing culture. |
|
12 Nov 08 - 05:56 PM (#2492205) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Amos " Most university students believe that if they're "trying hard," a professor should reconsider their grade. One-third say that if they attend most of the classes for a course, they deserve at least a B, while almost one-quarter "think poorly" of professors who don't reply to e-mails the same day they're sent. Those are among the revelations in a newly published study examining students' sense of academic entitlement, or the mentality that enrolling in post-secondary education is akin to shopping in a store where the customer is always right. The paper describes academic entitlement as "expectations of high marks for modest effort and demanding attitudes toward teachers."" |
|
12 Nov 08 - 09:37 PM (#2492383) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: Riginslinger "Most university students believe that if they're "trying hard," a professor should reconsider their grade." I would think if they are trying hard and come to "all" of the classes, they probably deserve a "C," if that's the best they can do. Sometimes you might have an Art student who is having trouble in a Math class, or a Chemistry student who might be having trouble in English. |
|
12 Nov 08 - 09:51 PM (#2492390) Subject: RE: BS: Education, Race 'n Community... From: katlaughing I could've told them that ten years ago when I was grading high school essays! |