Mingulay Boat Song again

19 Apr 99 - 08:06 AM (#71960)
Subject: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: Travesty

The last thread was getting a bit long.

Taking Sailor Boys comments about Minch deriving from the piping term Minge, it is possibly to work out the correct pronunciation and meaning of the place Mingulay. It is obviously Minge-You-Lay, the meaning being quite explicit.

One can imagine the fishermen of West Scotland singing of their longing to return home to their loved ones (Sailing homewards to the Minge You Lay). Also, the Outer Hebrides are rather cold and sunbathing is not a common sport. I am certainly not aware of any nudist beaches and therefore, before foreign holidays became commonplace, the average minge would be white. Either that or it is referring to an ageing person going grey and the lack of young fanny all of which have left the islands to go to Glasgow University - a fact I can attest to since there was plenty when I was there.

Yours,

Travesty

---

19 Apr 99 - 08:14 AM (#71961)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: Nurdlurker

So attempts to reintroduce beaver to Scotland will fail?

---

13 Sep 00 - 03:03 AM (#296277)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: Joan from Wigan

The last verse which I sing was passed to me some 30 years ago, and is not in the DT. I don't know the source of this verse, but I like singing it:

Bless the stars that do guide our journey
Bless our boats that do carry us safely
Bless our wives who are waiting patiently
All on the seashore at Mingulay

Joan

---

13 Sep 00 - 06:10 AM (#296315)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: Susan of DT

Thanx for the verse, Joan. I also picked up 2 more verses on my trip to England.

---

13 Sep 00 - 01:03 PM (#296498)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: Fiolar

There's a version on the www.mp3.com site.

---

13 Sep 00 - 01:07 PM (#296504)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: Fiolar

Sory to disappoint "Travesty" in his day dream but Mingulay is probably derived from "Minch." It is more than likely Scandavian in origin and is from the Old Norse "megin" (great) and "nes" (headland). Dream on.

---

14 Sep 00 - 08:44 AM (#297076)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: robroy

In that part of the Irish Sea there is if you study the charts a place called 'Les Minques' also known in Lancashire at least as 'The Minches'. I have a feeling that it refers to some rocks that stick out of the water in a dangerous manner.

---

14 Sep 00 - 08:12 PM (#297574)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: BigDaddy

robroy, you're on the right track. That part of the sea is called "the Minch" and appears so on many maps. When it's white, it's treacherous as any white water.

J.

---

01 Dec 02 - 05:50 PM (#838466)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: GUEST,[e-mail]

IS MINGULAY BOAT SONG TRADITIONAL (PUBLIC DOMAIN)??? IT SEEMS LIKE A VERY OLD SONG.

---

01 Dec 02 - 05:59 PM (#838477)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: Malcolm Douglas

No, it isn't. It was written by Hugh S. Roberton, conductor of the Glasgow Orpheus Choir, around 1938. The tune was based on a traditional one, though.

You seem to have managed to find the only discussion of the song here that doesn't mention its authorship.

---

02 Dec 02 - 03:04 AM (#838686)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: Boab

Did this one today too--coupled with "Westering Home" for the old folks. Always a favourite.

---

02 Dec 02 - 06:29 PM (#839175)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: GUEST,Q

Looking for:
1. Words actually put to the song by Sir Hugh Roberton in 1938.
2. Bona fide words to a pre-Roberton and/or traditional version. Is there such?

3. Tune:
a. The Tinkers say it is a "traditional air from region of Loch Treig."
b. The Corries say the tune is Creag Guanach
c. Barry Taylor says the tune is Lochaber.
Are these all the same?

Looked through a lot of websites and all three threads without finding definite answers. For a fairly recent song (20th c.) there is a hell of a lot of unsupported speculation.
There are almost as many versions of the lyrics as there are singers (almost everybody). About half the websites say the song is traditional, another 40 percent fail to indicate, and perhaps 10 percent correctly credit Roberton.

Note: Enough already on the Minch. I intend to have homemade minch pie at Christmas with plum pudding on the side.

Going through the websites, the first line of the chorus is started variously
Heel you (ya) ho
Neil you (ya) ho
Hill you (ya) ho
Heil ya ho
Any others?

Would like to know what the McCalmans mean by "Not a wave in straights and narrows." They give outbound sailing directions- "out by Uist and by Lewis as the sun sets on Mingulay." Geographically valid?
Mingulay Boat Song

---

02 Dec 02 - 06:45 PM (#839188)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: Mr Red

I usually sing a last verse thus -

Hoist the jib, boys, Rock it slow now
Man the capstan, from the stern side.
Drag her home boys, home to harbour,
lest she slips back with the tide

and you have finally sussed me - the inspiration was well.... er.... in keeping with the tradition so eruditely put. It made the lass laugh too - given the moment I chose to sing it.

---

02 Dec 02 - 08:16 PM (#839260)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: Malcolm Douglas

1. The DT entry quotes the refrain and verses 1 and 2 of the text as published by Roberton in 1950 (Songs of the Isles), but it is full of mistakes. Maybe it was transcribed from a record made by someone who hadn't bothered to learn it properly. The final verse is not by Roberton, but is a later addition by someone who felt for reasons of their own that the song ought to be longer that its maker had intended. A lot of people over the years seem to have decided that they knew better than poor old Hugh (consider the ghastly things that have been done to Mairi's Wedding and Westering Home, for example).

2. No "pre-Roberton" text, traditional or otherwise; though there may be some (unrelated) text or other associated with the tune; if anyone is able to identify it accurately.

3. Roberton himself described the melody as "traditional Gaelic tune (probably Lochaber)" Maybe it's related to that tune-group, but I can't say I'm particularly convinced at the moment. Somewhere, I have his son's account of it; but it's still in a box so I can't quote it now. I have no idea if the Tinkers or the Corries knew what they were talking about re this tune, but I wouldn't be too confident of it.

The chorus starts Hill you ho. It isn't a traditional song, so what the man who wrote it intended is what is right.

---

02 Dec 02 - 10:47 PM (#839370)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: GUEST,Q

Thanks, Malcolm, that blows away a lot of the feathers. Now if the lyrics by Roberton from his "Songs of the Isles" were posted, one would have the starting point that should have been in the DT or at the start of these threads.

---

03 Dec 02 - 10:49 AM (#839622)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: Malcolm Douglas

Roberton's original lyric was posted in the thread to which this is the second part:

Lyr Add: MINGULAY BOAT SONG (Sir Hugh Roberton)

As to the tune, Roberton had the basic melody from memory, but wasn't sure what it was called; probably, he said, Lochaber. Since yesterday, I've found a copy of the pipe tune Creag Guanach as mentioned above (and in the earlier thread, here), and can confirm that it's the same tune. Not Lochaber, then, but from Lochaber. My apologies for doubting the Corries!

There are also nuggets of useful information buried in other old threads beneath all the usual garbage; maybe even the identity of the perpetrator of the less than impressive final verse included in the DT entry. Mind you, everybody and his or her dog seems to have felt qualified to write extra verses for this one, so the guilty party may yet escape unpunished. That's not to say that all the "new" verses are uniformly bad; one or two are nearly up to Roberton's standard. ;)

---

03 Dec 02 - 11:25 PM (#840089)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: GUEST,Q

Glad to know that the original is posted. I had read Ian's post, but since the lyrics were taken from a late book (1996), I wasn't sure that they were the one, true lyric.

---

04 Dec 02 - 04:52 AM (#840188)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar

Scottish singer and weaver Norman Kennedy in the 1970s recorded a fine waulking song to a fine bouncy version of the Kishmul's Galley tune and similar theme. If Hugh Roberton as indicated above claims he wrote the lyric wholecloth, then the Gaels turned it back towards the original purpose. Spooky.
Hang on - is this the same Hugh Roberton who claims to MCPS that he wrote Coulter's Candy [which was documented in the 1880s, with a Robert Coultart sweet maker and seller as the composer]?
Hugh's been at it a long time, then.

---

04 Dec 02 - 08:28 AM (#840294)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: GUEST,Philippa

Kishmul's Galley is another song and tune; we have Mudcat threads on that song with original Gaelic lyrics as well as English lyrics. But the Mingulay Boat Song was written as an English language song.

---

04 Dec 02 - 01:31 PM (#840582)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: GUEST,Q

I am sure that Roberton arranged songs for the Orpheus Choir, but that doesn't mean that he claimed any of these songs for his own. The Glasgow choir was dissolved in 1951 after 50 years. Several songs by the Glasgow Phoenix Choir may be heard at Phoenix

---

05 Dec 02 - 12:28 PM (#841530)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: GUEST,Mingulay (the boat not the island)

Methinks the School of Scottish studies has it originally in Gaelic
as a Trad (anon) and translated into a semi-understandable language
such as English. The Minch or Minge argument could conceivably have
something to do with the fact that the boats mentioned in the song
were made of wood, which had to be imported, much of which was
southern european meach or mingewood, so called owing to its strange
smell. The close proximity to decaying seaweed and rotting fish
might also explain a lot.

'Nuff said.

---

05 Dec 02 - 04:31 PM (#841766)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar

Sorry, mixed two songs up, Phillipa and all.

---

05 Dec 02 - 04:59 PM (#841778)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: GUEST

Minch is the name for the body of water and probably not connected to the name of the island -- see relevant messages in the previous thread called "Mingulay Boat Song's Minch", link given above.

---

11 Apr 03 - 04:15 PM (#931329)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: GUEST,lighter

The melody of "Mingulay Boat Song" is about the same as the Scots march called "The Hawk that Swoops on High." Is there an interesting connection here?

---

12 Apr 03 - 09:03 AM (#931706)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: Jim McLean

The Hawk that Swoops on High (by Pipe Major J MacKay) also goes by the Gaelic title 'Creag Ghuanach', the 'Nodding Stone' and is, as lighter says, the same melody as the Mingulay Boat Song. I've played it many times.
Jim Mclean

---

12 Apr 03 - 10:30 AM (#931736)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: George Seto - [e-mail]

I made a litle typo in the second verse. Should be Mu not My.

---

12 Apr 03 - 10:52 AM (#931747)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: Peter T.

Any of you Boat Song experts have wise words on the Loch Tay boat song? The enquiries made about it here all ended with Andy Stewart's notes in his book. There must be more to the background of the song than that. yours, Peter T.

---

12 Apr 03 - 01:11 PM (#931845)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: George Seto - [e-mail]

Peter, wouldn't it have been better to put this in one of the Loch Tay song threads?

---

12 Apr 03 - 04:37 PM (#931959)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: Jim McLean

George, as I mentioned previously, and you supplied the lyrics (poem) to the tune 'Creag Ghuanach' AKA 'The Hawk that swoops on high' AKA 'The mingulay Boat Song', Hugh MacDiarmid wrote a wonderfully evocative poem in Lallans called 'The Eemis Stane' which translates into Gaelic as The Creag Ghuanach. Just an aside.
Jim Mclean

---

12 Apr 03 - 05:22 PM (#931985)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: George Seto - [e-mail]

Jim, I don't suppose you'd have that Lallans version available to post here?

---

12 Apr 03 - 05:44 PM (#931999)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: Jim McLean

Yes George, I'll do it tomorrow. Only the title is the same as it's a completely different poem.
Jim

---

12 Apr 03 - 08:45 PM (#932094)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: Peter T.

I would, but no one seemed to be very knowledgeable there -- the light is better over here. yours, Peter T.

---

13 Apr 03 - 04:37 AM (#932247)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: Jim McLean

George, as promised, the poem The Eemis Stane by Hugh MacDiarmid. I hope I'm not deviating too far from the thread but to clarify: The Eemis Stane translates into Gaelic as Creag Guanach which is the title not only of a poem by D McDonald but the alternative title to the pipe tune 'The hawk that swoops on high' which is the same melody as the Mingulay Boat Song!!!

THE EEMIS STANE

---

13 Apr 03 - 04:42 AM (#932250)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: Jim McLean

THE EEMIS STANE
by Hugh MacDiarmid.

I' the how-dumd-deid o' the cauld hairst nicht
The warl' like an eemis stane
Wags i' the lift;
An' my eerie memories fa'
Like a yowdendrift.

Like a yowdendrift so's I couldna read
The words cut oot i' the stane
Had the fug o' fame
An' history's hazelraw
No' yirdit thaim.
Cheers, Jim McLean

---

13 Apr 03 - 11:26 AM (#932386)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: George Seto - [e-mail]

Wow! Thanks, Jim. That is cute.

Peter, same people there as here. I had posted a request back when on the Gaelic Mailing Lists, which I repeated yesterday, to see if anyone knew the Iorram Loch Tatha song, but no luck. So, we still have the same information. If someone had information they would have posted here rather than in the thread specific to that song.

---

16 Oct 03 - 01:44 AM (#1036562)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: GUEST,SEW718

---

16 Oct 03 - 04:02 AM (#1036591)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: Garry Gillard

In case no-one has mentioned this: Danny Spooner has a great recording of the song on his CD, Launch out on the Deep:

http://www.folktrax.com/spo001.htm

Garry

---

16 Oct 03 - 11:12 AM (#1036805)
Subject: RE: Mingulay Boat Song again
From: GUEST,Big Jim from Jackson

You can find another recording by Lorry(sp?) Wyatt on the Folk-Legacy lable.

---

23 Jan 23 - 10:08 PM (#4163387)
Subject: Lyr Add: Creag Ghuanach
From: Felipa

Creag Ghuanach is the name of a mountain in Lochaber. Creag means a rock or crag. This is a song of love for a place. I don't know who wrote this translation, copied from
https://www.dulcimertab.com/wp-content/uploads/tab/creag_ghuanach_daa_noter.pdf
ah - it may be Tom Colquhoun of Largs Gaelic Choir
https://largsgaelic.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Creag-Ghuanach.pdf

TRANSLATION

first verse:
Crag of my heart is Creag Ghuanach,
The crag where I received my upbringing;
Crag of the wandering deer and stag,
The flourishing crag of joy and renown

Creag mo chridh'-sa, a' chreag Ghuanach,
'S ionmhuinn leam an lòn tha fo ceann;
Is annsa an lag air a cùlaibh,
Na machair is mùr nan Gall. :

Crag of my heart is Creag Ghuanach
Dear to me is the pool below its summit
And more dear the cave behind it,
Than a pasture or a hall of the Lowlands.

'S truagh an diugh nach beò an fheadhainn,
Gun ann ach an ceò de 'n bhuidhinn,
Leis 'm bu mhiannach glòir nan gadhar,
Gun mheoghail, gun òl, gun bhruidhinn.:

It is a pity that today the people are no longer living,
Where now only the mist is plentiful,
Who would have had a keen desire for glory with their hunting dogs
There is now no joy, no drinking, no conversation

https://www.bbc.co.uk/alba/oran/orain/creag_uanach/ gives more verses than posted on this Mudcat thread in 2003 by George Seto. A lot of the verses name many places that can be seen from the viewpoint ("Chi mi" means I see), for instance Beinn Neibhis = Ben Nevis. If you have Adobe flashplayer you can also hear the song being sung.

CREAG 'UANACH

Air minn ò iom ò rò,
Iom ò, agus iom ò rò,
Air minn ò, na iom ò rò,
Is aoibhinn leam an-diugh na chì.

Creag mo chridhe-sa, Creag 'Uanach,
C
Creag nan aighean 's nan damh siùbhlach,
'S i 'n chreag iùlmhor, fhonnmhor, fheurach.

A' chreag mun iathadh an fhaghaid,
Leamsa bu mhiann a bhith ga tadhailt,
'M bu bhinn guth cinn galain gadhair
A' cur greigh air gabhail chumhaing.

Òlaidh mi 's cha trèig mi h-ionnachd
Uaithe cha tèid mi air siollan;
'S i muime 'n fhèidh do-nì 'n langan
Am buinne deas ro-gheal fionnmhor.

Binn a h-iolaire fa bruachaibh,
Binn a cuach 's is binn a h-eala;
Seachd binne na sin am blaodhan
Do nì an laoghan beag breac ballach.

Eilid bhailgeann, bhailg-fhionn, bhallach,
Odhar, eangach, uchd ri h-àrd;
Trògbhalach thu, biorach, sgiamhach,
Crònanach, ceann-riabhach dearg.

Creag mo chridhe-sa, Creag Uanach,
An t-slatach ghlas dhuilleach chraobhach,
An tulach àrd àlainn fiadhaich
'S gur cian a ghabh i on mhaorach.

Deth cha robh i riamh ag èisteachd
Ri sèideil na muice-mara,
'S ann as tric a chuala i mòran
De chrònanaich an daimh allaidh.

Aoibhinn an obair an t-sealg
Aoibhinn a meanma 's a beachd;
'S mòr gum b' annsa leam a fonn
Na long is i dol fuidh rac.

Cha do chuir mi dùil san iasgach
Bhith ga iarraidh leis a' mhaghar;
'S mòr gum b' annsa leam am fiadhach
Siubhal nan sliabh anns an fhoghar.

Ceòl as binne de gach ceòl
Guth a' ghadhair mhòir 's e teachd;
Damh na shiomanaich le gleann,
Mìolchoin a bhith ann is às.

Gur binn leam torman nan dos
Air uilinn nan corrbheann cas;
Eilid bhinneach 's caol cos
Nì clos fo dhuilleach ri teas.

Chan eil do chèil' aic' ach an damh
'S e 's muime dhi am feur 's an creamh;
Màthair an laoigh bhall-bhric mhir,
Bean an fhir mhall-rosgaich ghlain.

An aigeantach shiùbhlas an raon
Cadal cha dean i san smùr;
B' anns na plaide ri taobh
Leabaidh san fhraoch bhagaideach ùr.

'S e fear mo chridhe-sa 'n samhradh
'S am fear ceannghorm air gach bile,
Fanaidh gach damh donn na dhoire
Ri teas goile grèine gile.

'S glan ri shloinneadh an damh donn
A thig o Uilinn nam beann,
Mac na h-èilde ris na tom
Nach do chrom le spid a cheann.

Èighidh damh Beinne Bige
'S èighidh damh Cheanna Craige
Freagraidh gach damh dhiubh d'a chèile
Fa cheann Locha Slèibhe Snaige.

Chi mi an siud am beannan ruadh
Goirid o cheann Loch Trèig
Creag Uanach am biodh an t-sealg
'N grianan àrd am biodh na fèidh.

Chì mi Coire Ratha uam
Chì mi Chruachan 's a' Bheinn Bhreac,
Chì mi Srath Oisein nam fiadh
Chì mi ghrian air Beinn nan Leac.

Chì mi Srath Oisein a' Chruidh
Chì mi Leitir Dhubh nan Sonn;
An gàir Coire creagach a' Mhàim
Am minig a rinn mo làmh toll.

Chì mi Beinn Nibheis gu h-àrd
Is an Càrn Dearg an aic' a buin,
An tulach air am fàs am fraoch
Am monadh maol gu ruige 'm muir.

'S fhada leam on sguir mi 'n fhiadhach
'S nach bheil ann ach ceò don bhuidhinn,
Leis am bu bhinn guth nan gadhar
'S o 'm faigheamaid òl gun bhruidhinn.

Nis o sguir mi shiubhal beann
'S o nach teann 'n t-iùbhar cruaidh
'S o nach seasadh mi air sgeir
'S truagh nach b'fhuil mi anns an uaigh.


----
incidentally, I had a brief correspondence with George Seto in 2022 via Facebook. I told him a lot of Scottish Gaelic lyrics had been added to Mudcat and tried to interest him in visiting/participating at the site again. So many of his geocities links posted at Mudcat are defunct.

====
digital reproduction of Coisir a' Mhod
https://digital.nls.uk/early-gaelic-book-collections/archive/78582950

for more verses, An Gaidheal 1876 https://digital.nls.uk/early-gaelic-book-collections/archive/76814885

or Sar-obair nam Bard Gaelach https://digital.nls.uk/early-gaelic-book-collections/archive/81881366

---