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23 Aug 07 - 12:49 PM (#2132067) Subject: BS: say, parents... From: GUEST,leeneia In America we have a famous advice columnist, Dear Abby. (We are on our second Dear Abby, and I must say that she is quite an improvement over the first.) Last night Abby printed a letter that made my heart ache. I'm going to type it out. ======== Dear Abby: The thing that comes to my mind when I look at my friends is "How much did you cut today?" It hurts my heart to know they do it. A couple of them do it on their legs. They wear pants in the summer so no one can see the nasty gashes and scars. My other friends do in on their arms and wear long-sleeved shirts or sweatshirts in 80-degree weather. I am only 14. What can I say or do to make them stop? I feel like if I tell them, they'll feel bad and cut more. I don't think they realize how much this hurts not just them, but me. Frightened and worried in Minnesota. ========== In case you are not in touch with young people of today, she is talking about her friends slashing themselves with razors and knives. I understand that a girl can go on the Internet and find a welter of sites and blogs which encourage this behavior. Abby's advice was for the writer to tell her parents, who can go to other adults to get her friends help. Good advice,though I wish she had been more informative about who the "other adults" would be. What is going on with our kids? I read about kids cutting themselves, starving themselves (anorexia and bulimia), doing illegal drugs, killing themselves in autoerotic hangings. A college student I know suddenly has bad eyes. His father, who treats substance abusers, fears that he put LSD in his eyes. That's the "in thing." LSD in their eyes! How stupid can they get? When I was a teenage girl, the threats to us were getting pregnant and getting drunk. The threats were realized, but not often. The really bad side of youth was reflected in photographs in the Milwaukee Journal of girls who had run away and were being looked for. I never see pictures like that any more; don't know why. Are we just writing off our runaways? What is going on? How can the kids have so little regard for their own safety, their own worth? |
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23 Aug 07 - 01:03 PM (#2132080) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... From: Wesley S Some of this "cutting" may be considered decorative - like getting a tatoo. Here are some examples |
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23 Aug 07 - 01:11 PM (#2132085) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... From: Ebbie Tattooing is a totally different subject, of course. 'Cutting' is not meant to be decorative. My own suspicion is that it is designed to make the person feel alive, i.e., if I can feel pain, I must be alive. But my opinion may be simplistic. Has anyone done research on cutting? How far back does it go? I had never heard of it until a few years ago- about the same time as new blue jeans were cut to make them appear old. I don't suppose there is a correlation. But it is a heart breaking phenomenon. Perhaps it is just another thing that relates to 'future shock'. Has anyone read Alvin Toffler lately? |
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23 Aug 07 - 01:27 PM (#2132103) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... From: KB in Iowa About 15 years ago I worked with a young lady who cut herself. She couldn't (or wouldn't) explain why she did it. It seems to have become a compulsion by the time I knew her. She cut her wrists and forearms but not deeply. She was smart and funny and not bad looking. Her boyfriend was a real loser. |
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23 Aug 07 - 01:39 PM (#2132110) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... From: Becca72 I would guess the "other adults" to be teachers, guidance counselors, the principal...or any other adult who will listen. My neice used to cut herself during a very bad time in her life in her early/mid teens. I also have an ex boyfriend who was doing it 20 years ago. From what both said to me, Ebbie is mostly right. It was done to prove they still had feelings but also to mask other feelings (like stubbing your toes to forget about your toothache, simply put) and there are some people who even say it is a stress relief for them, like their anxieties flow away with the blood or the act of cutting. I'm by no means an expert but I know it's been around for awhile now. |
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23 Aug 07 - 02:31 PM (#2132154) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... From: katlaughing That's about what I've heard from my daughter who knew a young girl who cut herself. I think it is obviously another form of self-hate, too. Cutting as evidenced in Wesley's link is what we've always called "scarring" and has been used throughout tribal societies as a right-of-passage, etc. That, to me, is totally different than a young person self-mutilating. |
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23 Aug 07 - 02:35 PM (#2132156) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... From: M.Ted It is related to depression, and it tends to emerge when the depression is present, and it goes away when the depression is under control. It's not a fad or a social behavior, and it is not new. The kids may simply scribble on their arms with markers or ink pens, as well, and they may repeatedly pick at blemishes or acne until they bleed. They can become obsessed with piercing and tattooes, and may impulsively cut and dye their hair. There is a peculiar look that people get when they do this--it is a stare, with an ashen, expressionless face--it is so distinctive that family and friends often call it something like "The Look" or "The Stare"-- The problem isn't isolated to young people, but we pay close attention to what young people do, and so we are more aware of their problems-- |
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23 Aug 07 - 03:13 PM (#2132174) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... From: RangerSteve In the yuppie-infested area that I live in, parents both work long hours to afford to over-sized house, expensive landscaping, and 3 or 4 luxury cars that they must have to impress the world. They never see the kids. The kids exist to do things that the parents can brag about to their friends. If the kids don't perform, they have no purpose. From the time the kids are born, their lives are on a schudule, the parents plan the kids colleges and careers. The kids are given everything in the way of material things, but love and attention are missing. It's a miserable life, being expected to impress parents that view you as prized posessions to be shown off when ever possible, or cast aside when you don't live up to expectations that you don't necesarily want to live up to. |
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23 Aug 07 - 03:30 PM (#2132192) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... From: Stilly River Sage My daughter has a friend who has cycled through various sorts of selfdestructive behavior. For this young woman it is, I think, a way to convince herself that she is as unimportant and she thinks her parents and friends think she is. They don't notice the cutting, because they don't notice her, and this is how she proved it. (This is a rough translation of what I understand is her take on it--I've read some of her poetry on her blog and posted supportive remarks after some of them.) I think she has grown out of some of that in the last year or two. SRS |
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23 Aug 07 - 06:24 PM (#2132294) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... From: M.Ted People who cut themselves have psychiatric problems. These are not necessarily caused by landscaped lawns, the number of cars parked in the driveway, or the perceived indifference of those around them. |
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23 Aug 07 - 07:47 PM (#2132329) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... From: Sandra in Sydney this is a powerful radio program on self-mutilation with links to further sources of info. Coping by Cutting Background Briefing is Radio National's agenda-setting current affairs radio documentary program. It varies from week to week in style and content, sometimes doing straight investigative journalism, sometimes exploring important ideas or social issues in on-the-road documentary style. You will find profiles of politicians, analysis of behind-the-scenes issues that shape society, and sometimes an exploration of an idea – or perhaps a murder. |
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23 Aug 07 - 07:56 PM (#2132336) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... From: Joe Offer Back in 1971, I had an Army barracks roommate who would slice away at himself with a knife. I think part of it is that he was trying to get an early discharge from the Army, but that wasn't the main reason. It was creepy, sharing a room with somebody like that. -Joe- |
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23 Aug 07 - 08:03 PM (#2132347) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: Cluin What's coming down the road? Fashionable amputations? Blindings? Brain damage? (well, they've been doing that for generations) |
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23 Aug 07 - 08:20 PM (#2132359) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: Sandra in Sydney one of my friends (late 20's - early 30's) coped in her teenage years & early 20's with a mentally-ill father by slicing into her arms. When I first met her a few years back I assumed the scars were recent & came from playing with her big dogs. It's only in the last few years that an astute doctor realised what was happening & sent her to a psychiatrist. And it is only in the last few months that her father was once again hospitalised and finally accepted medication that is stabilizing him. sandra |
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23 Aug 07 - 09:02 PM (#2132378) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: jacqui.c A friend's daughter began doing this in her early teens. This followed the death of her twin sister from leukemia a couple of years before after a five year battle during which the family was dominated by the need for Sarah's treatments. Her sister, when Sarah was dying, told her brother that she wished she would hurry up and die. When it happened the poor kid was totally lost in guilt and that, eventually, led to the self mutilation. Her mother got her help relatively early on and she's a lot better now, although she still has her 'blue' periods from time to time. There seem to be many causes of this problem but it does seem to come down, in the end to a lack of self worth. I think that there is a lot more pressure on kids now to conform to ideals of one kind or another, from parents, teachers, their peers and the media, which pushes pictures of what one should look like, the way to behave, what one needs to be 'in'. |
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23 Aug 07 - 09:45 PM (#2132407) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: Janie It is a behavior often associated with Borderline Personality Disorder, but the incidence of it in teens seems to be increasing. For many teens it is both experimental and copycat behavior, and most teens who cut, scratch, or burn themselves do not continue the behavior. It is not behavior than can, or should be ignored, however, even though the cuts may be quite superficial. For those who habitually cut (or burn, or otherwise engage in self-harm) it is a very complex behavior. Ebbie's explanation may be 'simplistic', but it is very close to the reason many clients give for the behavior. That, and as a way to tolerate, or divert attention from emotional distress. It can become very compulsive and can be hard behavior to extinquish because in the immediacy of the distress, it works, even while it causes even more shame and emotional distress over the long haul. While I do not mean to imply that everyone who gets a tatoo or body-piercing do it to experience the pain, I have had more than one heavily tatooed and/or pierced client tell me having these procedures done serves the same purpose as cutting or burning. Many mental health professionals have speculated about the dramatic rise in tatooing and body piercing among the youth in our society, along with the increase in experimental cutting observed in teens. It suggests that in some incidences, we are either not teaching kids the skills they need to cope with and tolerate stress and emotional distress, or the conditions of our society and families (families themselves are under a great deal of stress) result in more and more teens being subjected to more stress and distress in their daily lives than they can reasonably be expected to cope with. |
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23 Aug 07 - 10:34 PM (#2132446) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: Little Hawk I went out with a young woman who frequently cut and burned herself, and had been doing so for years. There were numerous reasons for it. Self-hatred. Guilt feelings. Self-punishment. Stress relief. Not knowing what to do with herself. Feelings of worthlessness. A desire for self-destruction. A need for catharsis. Covering over inner pain with outer pain. Basically, it's an extreme lack of self-worth. I made a sincere and determined effort to help her for about 3 years, eventually realized it was utterly beyond my powers to do so, and after that I avoided her, because she was severely damaging my life as well as her own. She died in her early 30's from a combination of alcoholism and lack of nutrition. She clearly had nothing to live for, in her opinion, and she just gave up after a certain point. When she was younger, she definitely had a lot of hopes and dreams. I can vouch for that. They were unrealistic and extremely romantic dreams, and she didn't have any of the practical tools to make them come true in the real world. When she reached the point where she could see that none of them were going to come true, she pretty much quit doing anything except trying to dull the pain by any means possible. Those means were alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, promiscous sex with just about anyone who was available, and cutting and burning herself. To have this going on with someone you love, and I did love her, is just about enough to make life seem completely unbearable...so I can have more than a glimmer of just how bad she felt most of the time. |
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23 Aug 07 - 11:06 PM (#2132467) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: catspaw49 Our son Michael went into serious clinical depression and began cutting along with other things. We began counselling, testing, etc. and he continued until he had a very bad cut on the top of his hand. As I bandaged it I asked if he thought of suicide when he did that and he responded, "What else would be the point?" We have been going through hell for the past year and it peaked back through the month of June. I'll tell you all about it at another time, but basically he tried to commit suicide three times, threatened to kill himself, his girlfriend, her mother, and us. I'll hit the high points of details later here, but trying to access help was completely frustrating and we can now tell you exactly what caused Virginia Tech and Columbine........... I haven't talked about this here for a lot of reasons but we're slowly emerging from the woods. Hold a good thought. Spaw |
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23 Aug 07 - 11:19 PM (#2132472) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: GUEST,hg I'm so sorry Michael has been struggling, Pat. I hope you found good help for him and that everyone is okay. harpgirl |
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23 Aug 07 - 11:31 PM (#2132476) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: Janie Pat, Holding all of you in my heart and mind. I certainly know about the problems accessing help in the public system. The private 'systems' can be as bad in this corporate age of managed care. Janie |
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23 Aug 07 - 11:39 PM (#2132482) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: Janie There is a difference between cutting as a way to manage emotional distress and attempted suicide, but the two behaviors are far from mutually exclusive. If you have teen who is cutting, or know a teen who is cutting, do everything you can to get help for the kid. Pretty good list, LH. It is truly heartbreaking. Janie |
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24 Aug 07 - 12:13 AM (#2132495) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: katlaughing Phew...hear that, Spawdarlin'? That's a long-held breath...thanks so much for posting about Michael. what you and your family have been going through is mind-reeling. You should all be proud of the way you have handled things and know that we are all here for you, as in the past.:-) luvyabucketskat |
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24 Aug 07 - 12:33 AM (#2132502) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie Ranger Steve has got it right, there are so many unhappy people out there ignored by the very people who are supposed to love them the most, you see it all around you, everywhere you go. I think it's also the reason for a lot of the bad behaviour by teens and children, you see them in the street or on buses acting really loud, swearing and cursing. All they are subconsciously saying is "Look at me, listen to me, for gods sake someone please take notice of me!" All anyone really needs is LOVE not material possesions. |
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24 Aug 07 - 02:28 AM (#2132525) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: Sandra in Sydney spaw - hugs & good wishes to your son & your family. sandra |
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24 Aug 07 - 07:21 AM (#2132617) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: kendall The neice that Becca 72 mentioned is my Grand daughter. I had a heart to heart talk with her about cutting, and she told me that she did it because it was a pain that she was in control of. Other pain in her life was heaped on her by her no good father. Now that she is in control of her life, no more cutting. |
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24 Aug 07 - 07:27 AM (#2132619) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: kendall This is a sample of her writing. She wrote this when she was not yet a teen ager. Little Girl I saw the eyes of an old woman In the young face of a child. It was experienced and knew much Though tender, pained and mild. I saw the posture of a weakened woman In a body that had known a sad childhood. She carried herself without meaning Following orders without thinking if she should. I saw the strength of a warrior In a heart that knew only to survive. It bought itself to face each day And yet it was barely alive. I saw the spirit of an aged soldier Inside the lost soul of a mere baby. It had fought many battles And now it was crying "save me". I saw a little girl Who had grown up far too fast. She had already lived her life Though she barely had a past I saw all this, And it broke my heart to see. And then I looked a little closer And saw the little girl was me. |
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24 Aug 07 - 07:44 AM (#2132631) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: redsnapper Like 'Spaw my own daughter has been involved in this for several years and it is heartbreaking to watch. As opposed to the people RangerSteve and Bruce Michael Baillie are talking about, and there must be many such, she is much loved by family and knows she is. In her case what Ebbie and Little Hawk said strikes a very strong note and I think a lot of it arose from not fitting in with the peer pressure of material possession, fashion, being "one of the gang", sex, drugs, etc while at school, and the depression that resulted. Like others, I have seen that this behaviour is dramatically on the rise and it says a lot about the breakdown of much of what is valuable in our society. RS |
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24 Aug 07 - 07:50 AM (#2132634) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: Sandra in Sydney that's an amazing piece of writing, Kendall. sandra |
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24 Aug 07 - 08:20 AM (#2132644) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: catspaw49 Funny isn't it that so many of these teens with this problem and depression and are also so very creative and artistic? Michael's depression can be directly tied to the chemical problems caused by Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. If you haven't educated yourself about the recognition of this extremelyserious problem that manifests itself in varied ways, all of them serious, then do so. Add on to this that Michael was adopted and the woman who gave birth to him had little real interest. There is a growing recognition of another mental condition spurred on by the Fetal Alcohol/Depression and affecting a lot of adopted kids (and others as well) called Reactive Attachment Disorder. The group of symptons here include many things that a lot of teens do, the difference being that RAD kids display almost ALL of them. RAD can be diagnosed as early as the first year and had we known then then what we know now..........I never gave a lot of credibility to the womb/first years stuff as I figured we could overcome all of that with "Good Parenting." HA!!! For a RAD child the classic tenets of good parenting make the problem worse. Ain't that a bitch? And even worse, by the time they are teens, its too late to ever really overcome all of it and the best you can do is work toward making them safe to themselves and others as well as hopefully functional in society. Its an uphill climb. Some of the better known folks who can be documented to probably have RAD are some European guy named Hitler, a gourmet named Jeffrey Dahmer, and that man about town, Ted Bundy. The guy at Virginia Tech hasn't yet been included but he meets an awful lot of the criteria. Anyway.......BRUCE.........Not all of the problems are bad parenting. Thanks to all of you for your good thoughts. They really are good to read. Spaw |
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24 Aug 07 - 09:19 AM (#2132663) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: redsnapper Agreed 'Spaw... it is strange. Perhaps that personality type are worse affected. My daughter is highly intelligent (but dropped out of uni because of her depression) and is a gifted artist and photographer. RS |
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24 Aug 07 - 10:12 AM (#2132694) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: SINSULL So sorry, Spaw. But talking about it is the first step. |
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24 Aug 07 - 10:16 AM (#2132696) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: kendall Sandra in Sidney, That is a tiny sample of her writing. She was published in a national magazine (17 I think it was) at the age of 14. |
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24 Aug 07 - 10:18 AM (#2132697) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: katlaughing All anyone really needs is LOVE not material possesions. Not true. I know Spaw and Karen have given their boys tons and tons of love and good parenting. In the case of Michael it wouldn't matter how much love they showed/told him, he would still have RAD and still need much intensive treatment, which they are thankfully able to get for him. I also know that even if someone is loved, if they don't hear it expressed and shown through conscious ways, it can still not be enough. This is especially true with children. Yes, love is better than having a bunch of stuff, but with it comes some responsibility to engage in meaningful ways with the object of one's love. |
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24 Aug 07 - 10:19 AM (#2132699) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: Tinker Blessings Spaw, A good friend of mine added a foster child to her family when the neighboring Aunt became overloaded. At age 11 there was an extreme uphill battle that inclulded depression, cutting, suicide attempts and eventually running to the opposite coast to live with the father she had not seen in 12 years.... She too was very artisic. ONe summer with a lot of rangling for scholarship money she headed off for two weeks of college level art school. Cutting there was almost a norm. Bright artistic kids (perhaps) have the ability to name and focus the pain that others withdraw from. "Seeing to much" is a blessing and a curse and controling one's response is never easy. More than materialism we've created a culture where we believe pain is controlable. Whether it's physical or emotional we want it to be cured yesterday. And we really don't want to admit it could impact us. For teens who feel isolated and alone almost by definition ,emotional pain becomes one flashing indicator that something is wrong with them... not the basic premiss. Spaw, there are hugs going out and yes, damaged wiring can cause all types of short circuted behavior, but keep the care flowing for the household and yourself. Keep firm and strong. Feel the love here. Give the system hell. Tinker |
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24 Aug 07 - 11:19 AM (#2132723) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: Bee I wish the best to all of you who are coping with this behaviour. A close relative of mine began cutting when she was twenty, a while after her father died in front of her. She had tried unsuccessfully to resuscitate him, and it seems to have preyed on her mind for a very long time, resulting in depression, self-esteem issues, and self-harming. It took nearly ten years for her to completely recover, but she is now a stable and happy working mother. There is hope. |
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24 Aug 07 - 05:36 PM (#2132974) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: Richard Bridge Everyone has emotional pain. Not me of course, but everyone else does. |
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24 Aug 07 - 07:48 PM (#2133053) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: GUEST,Ebbie That's in line with my own thinking, Richard. I believe that every one of us has our own tragedy- to different degrees, of course. One person may have accidentally killed someone while the person standing next to him or her may have never been able to forget the manner of death that her or his dog suffered, but tragedy for all that. It is one of the elements that make human beings so endlessly fascinating. |
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24 Aug 07 - 08:20 PM (#2133065) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: GUEST,hg Here is a link to one of the foremost researchers on child trauma and RAD: Bruce D. Perry. Bruce D Perry articles |
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24 Aug 07 - 08:22 PM (#2133066) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: GUEST,hg And another link: Info on RAD |
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24 Aug 07 - 08:49 PM (#2133078) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: Little Hawk Good God, Spaw. Going through it with one's girlfriend is bad enough...I can hardly even think how bad it must be going through it with one's child. As you say, "Not all of the problems are bad parenting." No, not by any means. There are all kinds of reasons for it. I spent so much time depressed when I was a teenager that it was practically my standard state of mind. My reaction was passive...I would just withdraw from people and go farther in. It doesn't surprise me much at all when I hear about stuff like Columbine. That's what happens when the inner pain bursts outward toward others instead of just drawing in deeper and hiding itself. |
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24 Aug 07 - 11:43 PM (#2133148) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: TRUBRIT When my middle child was 15 (ish) her counselor said she needed to speak to us and came to the house one night -- I thought she was going to tell me that my daughter was gay -- but instead she told me my daughter - the child of my heart (and I dearly love all three) was cutting herself -- and WE HADN'T EVEN NOTICED........ That child was in black depression for years -- we count ourselves lucky she made it through and now she is a happy healthy 22 year old with a 2 year degree and a direction in her life......but we did not think it would come. She wrote a marvellous poem about cutting which I cannot lay my hand on....but she also wrote this one ... Naked in the rain, she runs The freest alive Soaking, in moist reaity Seeing truth as it should be Possessionless, with out a price Stars in her eyes Scars on her wrists Crazy, Maybe, But that's how it is Of all of the people, and all their degrees She's the only one to realize The only one to see They're not people , alive, They're bodies, collecting things Naked she runs Washing away the fabric world Stripping the labels taped to her skin Drops paint her body Traces her outline Exploring her curves Following her pounding legs As she races alone Collecting more than just titles and things Crazy, Maybe, But that is how it is. |
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25 Aug 07 - 12:23 AM (#2133159) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: GUEST,leeneia Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences, everyone. On a deep level, I am awed and saddened at what Spaw, kendall, little hawk and truebrit have suffered. On a more ordinary level, I want to know why the parents of the kids in the Dear Abby letter fail to wonder why their kids are wearing sweatshirts in August in the Midwest. HELLO!? === I'm sorry I can't quote the statistics now, but I saw an article in the paper that showed an amazing number of students at Ivy League colleges are cutting. These kids can't all be suffering from serious mental illness or RAD. So I think there is something to the idea that they feel so pressured to excel that every minor failing leads to desperation. All I can say is - be nice to a kid. |
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25 Aug 07 - 12:32 AM (#2133162) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: TRUBRIT Well _ guess I am not so sure what the difference is -- I think Mim felt pressured even though we didn't mean for her to feel pressured.......but I think she was depressed and therefore 'desperate' - what is the difference? She told me that the marks on her arms were from cat scratches -- I honestly didn't question it. She wore jeans all the time...... |
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25 Aug 07 - 04:35 AM (#2133207) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: KT Kendall, and Trubrit, such writing from ones so young.....wise beyond their years.....wow. I think there's a direct connection between our creative energy and our emotional state, whether that be one of joy or pain. Spaw, check for pm. KT |
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25 Aug 07 - 08:26 AM (#2133260) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: kendall Here is the one that always tears me up: The world is too close in us Late and early Caressing and dying we lay waste our powers Little we see the grief that is ours We have given our love away, A bleeding death. This demise that lays vulnerable to the lies This hound that wails into the night, And, is collected now, like bleeding flowers, For this, for everything, we are discomforted, It does not touch us, But, still, we ask, "How could you do this to me?" I'd rather be a child, wrapped in a torn shirt So that I, running on this broken land, Could have glimpses to make me less forlorn And, see myself rising from the sea And hear the Gods blare comfort from a horn |
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25 Aug 07 - 10:55 PM (#2133642) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: M.Ted For the record, the imagery is Wordsworth's-- "THE WORLD IS TOO MUCH WITH US; LATE AND SOON" THE world is too much with us; late and soon, Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers: Little we see in Nature that is ours; We have given our hearts away, a sordid boon! The Sea that bares her bosom to the moon; The winds that will be howling at all hours, And are up-gathered now like sleeping flowers; For this, for everything, we are out of tune; It moves us not.--Great God! I'd rather be A Pagan suckled in a creed outworn; 10 So might I, standing on this pleasant lea, Have glimpses that would make me less forlorn; Have sight of Proteus rising from the sea; Or hear old Triton blow his wreathed horn. 1806. |
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25 Aug 07 - 10:55 PM (#2133643) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: TRUBRIT Oh Kendall------ I am trying to track another poem that Mim wrote that is on topic......... |
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26 Aug 07 - 08:00 AM (#2133786) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: kendall She is an avid reader, so I'm not surprised that she rebuilt this to suit herself. However, how many pre teens know anything about Wordsworth? At the age of 8 she read Great Expectations. When she was around 15 she came to me with a problem that had no good solution. We were trying to decide which route to take, and thinking out loud, I said "To be or not to be. That is the question" She picked it up and finished the whole speech by Hamlet! I never memorized the whole thing myself. |
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26 Aug 07 - 02:00 PM (#2133928) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: open mike another perspective...thread drift, i remember seeing images in the Time/Life book the "Epic of Man" of ancient and tribal peoples who decorated their skin by cutting with sharpened stones and shells, and irritating the cuts by rubbing in ashes, to form welts. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0728_040728_tvtabooscars.html http://www.randafricanart.com/Scarification_and_Cicatrisation_among_African_cultures.html this scarfication (and burning "branding") can be seen on several web pages and like a tatoo (without ink) some can actually be beautiful but a very frightening trend http://www.bmezine.com/scar/scar-faq.html http://modblog.bmezine.com/category/scarification/ www.scarabbodyarts.com/scarification/ |
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26 Aug 07 - 02:47 PM (#2133957) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: McGrath of Harlow Scarification and tattoos and piercing are of course a different thing from the kind of stuff this thread's been about, cutting and all that - but I wonder whether for some people it might provide a sort of escape route from that kind of compulsion. |
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26 Aug 07 - 03:31 PM (#2133979) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: M.Ted Kendall--having dealt with all the problems outlined in this thread, and more, I've observed that, as adults, we know that change comes from insight, and so we ask kids to explain what they think cause their problems. When they respond, it is both tempting and easy for us to mistake imitation for introspection. Spaw's Michael, and other kids with RAD, would doubtlessly be able to give a good account of why they had they problems that they did, but they wouldn't have had any idea at all about what the real problem was. |
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26 Aug 07 - 03:36 PM (#2133981) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: open mike more off-topic info:the history of scarification in sub saharan africa http://www.med.uottawa.ca/medweb/hetenyi/ayeni.htm |
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26 Aug 07 - 03:50 PM (#2133991) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: katlaughing Thanks for the links, open mike. That's the kind of thing I was referring to when I mentioned some cultures using scarification, etc. as rituals. |
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26 Aug 07 - 06:11 PM (#2134071) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: GUEST,mg It won't help the most severe cases, but try to get depressed (in fact, every) students into occupational education courses. They are not going to have time to be introspective and some of their concerns about the future, their place in society etc. will be overcome with marketable skills. Plus many students, perhaps the depressed ones, perhaps not, are not drawn from the same learning style groups as the teachers and need more hands-on learning. And schools should have a dress code that dresses them pretty standardly so they don't wear shirts with skulls on them etc. School nurses are a good resource if you are lucky enough to have one. But when students are learning to weld, build things, operate medical equipment, type, cook, it is just my observation and opinion that they are far less worried and self-reflective etc. They are doing something, which is what nature intends 15 year olds to be doing, learning the ropes. |
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26 Aug 07 - 07:52 PM (#2134125) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: Little Hawk Yeah, that's right. People need something to do or they get depressed. The same is true of animals. Give an animal all the food it requires and give it absolutely nothing physical to do and it will either sleep all the time or get depressed. |
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26 Aug 07 - 09:00 PM (#2134179) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: Donuel I feel certain that this condition will respond positively to certain pharmacological therapies. I had many clients who performed various kinds of self mutillation be it cutting, biting or pulling out ones hair or eyelashes. Talking therapy is slow if not valuable for facing causitive factors while hypnosis using PHS substitute behaviors is very good in the short run. |
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26 Aug 07 - 10:48 PM (#2134230) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: Little Hawk Terrible what happens with idle minds, isn't it? |
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27 Aug 07 - 07:11 AM (#2134363) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: kendall M.Ted, believe me, she knows why, and her explantion is right on the money. She got away from her abuser and she now has a good job as a manager in a jewelry company, she's married and has not cut herself in years. When your headache goes away, you stop taking aspirin, right? |
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27 Aug 07 - 12:50 PM (#2134601) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: M.Ted I don't presume to know your granddaughter's situation--I am glad that things have turned out so well for her. My comments are more focussed on those people who think they know what's wrong with everyone else's kids, based on articles they've read in the Sunday supplement-- |
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27 Aug 07 - 03:40 PM (#2134722) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: Richard Bridge Interesting - pulling out eyelashes is "sefl-mutilation"? And what stops it? |
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27 Aug 07 - 03:45 PM (#2134725) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: Peace Self-mutilation. Adults have shown the way: holes for ear rings, body piercings, eyebrow plucking, etc. However, maybe there's mutilation and then there's mutilation. |
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28 Aug 07 - 04:02 PM (#2135487) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: Little Robyn My daughter cut her arms on Monday night. I thought she'd grown out of that a few years ago (she's 21 now) but something has stirred it up. She's been into serious hair pulling for the last few years and usually shaves her head and wears a beanie to hide it. We have taken over the baby (almost 18 months old now) so the pressure had lessened and she seemed to be much happier at the weekend but something has set it off again. She's to see a councellor today. It's been suggested that she might never 'grow up'. Robyn |
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28 Aug 07 - 10:40 PM (#2135753) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: M.Ted People suggest a lot of things--it doesn't mean they're right. The fact that she's seeing a counselor today is a sign that she's dealing with this--which is really what growing up is about. |
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29 Aug 07 - 12:34 PM (#2136121) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: GUEST,leeneia You and your daughter have my sympathy, Little Robyn. I also applaud your love and courage in taking over the care of the baby. I hope that goes well. I don't understand why someone would remark that she may never grow up. The remark implies that cutting and pulling out one's hair are childish behaviors. Millions and millions of children grow up and do not cut themselves or pull out their hair. Most children have a horror of pain, not a desire for it. |
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29 Aug 07 - 02:45 PM (#2136219) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: Jack Campin Trichotillomania (hair pulling) comes in different forms, most of which have nothing to do with self-mutilation. I've had it sporadically for most of my life. The point of the pulling is that it relieves a congested, itchy sensation - it's like scratching an itch only more so. The sensation of relief from the congestion gets to be somewhat addictive (maybe endorphin involvement) but the congested sensation has to be there to begin with. And the cause of that sensation is not necessarily very psychological - hair follicles in the affected areas are mostly abnormal (clogged with sheaths of goo and secreting more sebum than usual). Part of it in my case seems to be food intolerance (to eggs) and I can stop an attack of itchy congested feelings in minutes with a dose of antifungal ointment. The fungus is _Malassezia furfur_, which is commonly involved in inflammatory skin conditions. Egg seems to help it grow in some people. Stress does set attacks off; one suggestion is that stress hormones encourage fungal growth. Antifungals that work for me: ketoconazole (Daktarin Gold) or terbinafine (Lamisil). You need very little of it. It's EXTREMELY unhelpful to have the condition labelled as something requiring intervention from psychiatrists or behavioural psychologists when staying off eggs and using a tube of over-the-counter jock itch cream will deal with it more effectively than they could ever dream of any of their techniques doing for any disorder at all. |
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29 Aug 07 - 04:15 PM (#2136294) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: Little Robyn Thanks guys. She was doing some of this stuff from the age of about nine, when she was removing eyebrows and eyelashes and chewing her fingernails right down. Actually she's chewed fingernails since she had teeth. Her school teacher at the time said she was lacking in imagination - the child psychologist we went to said she had an incredible imagination! I knew that. She left her eyes alone once she went to high school (13 years old here in NZ) and for about a year she settled down. Then the teenage peer influence kicked in, she started smoking (at school), lost her virginity (at school) and started drinking. Most of this we didn't know until later. Somewhere around 15 she started the knife stuff, when things went wrong. At one stage she was chasing me with a knife and the police had to call. More sessions with an 'expert' but I didn't feel they sorted any real problems. We had some nice chats and she admitted she enjoyed tormenting me but she was also tormenting herself at the same time. She blamed school and one teacher as well as general bullying but all the other kids were coping the same stuff. Again, things settled and when she left school she seemed to mature. I thought she was going to grow up and turn into a normal adult - well, slightly wild teenager but so are all the others around here. She tried flatting, got pregnant, had an abortion, came home, went flatting again, got pregnant again, came home again and we had a baby. She tried flatting with the baby but that was a disaster and they had to be rescued. During this time she seemed to be coping quite well (with lots of help from us) but she gradually drifted back to staying in bed, listening to loud heavy metal music, dressing like Marilyn Manson and yelling at the baby. Just over a month back she snapped, she decided she and the baby shouldn't live and she started trying to hurt us as well. She spent 3 weeks in the psych ward and then they let her shift into a flat (but she's not allowed to have the baby). She came home on Saturday to write her CV and was looking for a job. She was doing better than she had done for months. Then something upset her and she started the cutting again, which I hadn't seen for several years. She actually said she inflicted physical pain to cover the emotional pain. This was the reaction she had in her teens and it's been suggested that, given her track record, she will probably revert to this behaviour again in the future. So I'm now being Mum to a delightful little girl, when I had been looking forward to retirement. Grandad's great with her too so we'll cope. Robyn |
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29 Aug 07 - 11:08 PM (#2136567) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: TRUBRIT Little Robyn -- my thoughts, sympathies and just plain love are with you. Having lived for years with a recovered cutter, I watch her daily in case I see signs of a recurrence. Her ex boyfriend was killed in Iraq and I - selfishly - could only think that PLEASE let this not be a start of old unhealthy patterns. Thank God with lots of support and a 'Mim watch' going on in our circle to ensure she stayed well, she made it through, She too was exhibiting 'behaviors...' from a very young age.......her first visit to a counselor was at age 4 when she developed death anxiety and was afraid to go to sleep in case she didn't wake up...... |
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06 Mar 13 - 12:54 PM (#3487122) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: Claire M Hiya, I knew someone who cut, but have had no contact with them for years. I've been depressed myself. Still can't listen to certain songs. I switched from this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE4OMnvFDOU to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE4OMnvFDOU & feel much better. Refer to my depression as my black cloud & have written a story about it – a magical spell/song being its cure. I just wish I'd discovered the 2nd song earlier. |
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06 Mar 13 - 01:19 PM (#3487128) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: GUEST,leenia Hi, Claire. Thanks for your input. I'm glad you are feeling happier. When I have more time, I'll listen to your links. |
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06 Mar 13 - 01:35 PM (#3487138) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: Ebbie William Styron wrote a book about his bout with clinical depression. If I remember correctly, it was 'Darkness Visible' or was it "INvisible'? Anyway, it is a fascinating account of an experience with depression by a very good writer. |
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06 Mar 13 - 03:59 PM (#3487203) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: GUEST,mg Watch what they eat. If it is possible to get them to cut back on sugar and white flour, potatoes, etc. that might help. Also, try to add fish oils..if possible make them tuna salads, sandwiches (minimal bread) etc...plus any salmon etc. There are suggestions here and there that people of Irish, Scandinavian, Native American and Russian ancestry (probably others as well) must have fish oils for their brains to function because they had so much fish in their ancient diet that they don't need to manufacture certain fatty acids that others evolved to manufacture from raw material. Look at who has trouble with alcohol, schizophrenia etc...some of the above groups...we need to not just tell people what they might benefit from eating but actually provide it to them..wish we had community kitchens where people could pay modest prices and get vegan or gluten free or high protein or whatever they need. many problems in the world would fade away. |
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06 Mar 13 - 05:24 PM (#3487231) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: GUEST,leeneia Claire, I just noticed your two links are identical. What's the true link to the second song? |
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06 Mar 13 - 11:03 PM (#3487357) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: GUEST,.gargoyle Nature has a way of removing certain weak-traits from the "gene pool". cdc.gov/features/vitalsigns/hai/cre/index.html Sincerely, Gargoyle Ireland has the greatest incidence of fetal alcohol syndrom followed by France. Parents punishing their children for the sin of the fathers...even unto the third and fourth generation. |
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08 Mar 13 - 10:06 AM (#3488023) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: Claire M Hiya, Oh sorry, Leeneia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO_j5R3BKJ4 Fortunately one of my arms is bad, so if I wanted to do that I couldn't. I'd probably be thrown out of the care home too – there are different places for different problems & they don't deal with that type of thing here – not because they don't want to, it's just not what they specialise in (unless somebody already does that when they move in) – so I dread to think where I'd end up if that started again. Somewhere worse probably. I stayed in one for Respite before I moved & one lady had the same problems you mention which was why she was there. This place was so bad you'd have to make up an entire new language to describe how bad it actually was. This isn't the greatest place in the world but it's a lot better than the others. Said cloud hasn't hit me since my taste reverted either. When I showed somebody said story she was shocked. |
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08 Mar 13 - 11:06 AM (#3488057) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: GUEST,leeneia Hello, Claire. Thanks for the new link, the one to the Pentangle recording. I enjoyed it, and I sure enjoyed it a lot more than the first one. (Listening to popular music, don't you get tired of male singers who feel sorry for themselves? I do.) I'm glad 'the cloud' hasn't come back. I hope things stay that way. |
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08 Mar 13 - 11:47 AM (#3488075) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: LilyFestre I used to work in a residential group home for teens. Our criteria for acceptance was that the child had been sexually abused and in a minimum of 10 foster homes. To say that these kids were tortured souls is an understatement. We had a few cutters. One child in particular comes to mind. She was a smart girl, funny, popular with the other kids but she would cut her forearms frequently. We talked about it and she said she did it because all of her pain is in her head..the only time she found any relief was when she caused pain on the outside of her body...took her attention away from the mental anguish. Very sad. Michelle |
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08 Mar 13 - 04:03 PM (#3488163) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: GUEST,Lavengro I am a mental health nurse but don't really want to get into my opinion and experience as it is such a complicated issue to address in a handful of sentences. What I would like to do is share a poem with you about the potential consequences of the adult world turning a blind eye to bullying and not speaking up against it. Silence is Golden It's not the names thrown by ignorant mouths Or the drumming fists falling one by one It is the silence on your lips, it is the stillness of your tongue It's not that you watched me shielded by my hair and sat alone Or the knowing hatred of texts sent by twisted thumbs It is the silence on your lips, it is the stillness of your tongue It's not the self made ladder of red lines on my arms As they slowly fade and whiten to crooked rungs It is the silence on your lips, it is the stillness of your tongue It's not the cold slap of the train tracks Or the last breath from my lungs It is the stillness of your lips, it is the silence on your tongue |
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09 Mar 13 - 11:20 AM (#3488402) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: GUEST,leeneia Thank you, Lily and Lavengro. |
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09 Mar 13 - 08:40 PM (#3488518) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: GUEST Lavengro, thanks for sharing this. "It's not the self made ladder of red lines on my arms As they slowly fade and whiten to crooked rungs" Wow. I work daily with young women suffering from a variety of stressors, among them trauma, abuse, and often their own mental illness. Cutting is common among them, and I believe it is a way to feel physically what they have no language for emotionally, but cannot leave inside, or set aside. I never dreamed that my strong, well-adjusted daughter would experiment with this in a dark, dark time in her life... when I thought she was safe under my wing. She has come through on the other side, but the scars and the shadow will always be there. Blessings on our children, on 'their' children, and on the moms and dads trying to make sense of this. |
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10 Mar 13 - 07:41 PM (#3488933) Subject: RE: BS: say, parents... (teenage self-mutilation) From: GUEST,Lavengro So glad to hear that your precious daughter has come through her dark times. As you say, blessings on all our children and those who love them. |