The Butterfly slip jig

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The Butterfly slip jig

12 Sep 07 - 09:53 AM (#2147294)
Subject: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Les in Chorlton

Just discovered this beautiful tune in the collection shared for the sessions at Shrewsbury Festival.

Does anybody know its origin?

Thanks
Les

12 Sep 07 - 10:04 AM (#2147304)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Bonnie Shaljean

It's a fairly recent composition (about 20-30 years old, I think). I'd always thought it was written by Seán Potts but have been corrected on that... and doubtless will be so again, cos now I can't remember who it was ;-)

12 Sep 07 - 10:06 AM (#2147305)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Greg B

Actually, the fellow what first played the bugger three decades
ago is still playing it, trying in vain to find the end...

12 Sep 07 - 10:07 AM (#2147309)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Les in Chorlton

Thanks Bonnie,

I much enjoyed your music with Packie, I think Liverpool around 1970 but it might also have been Leeds and Whitby.

Its a lovely tune feels a bit like a Waltz?

12 Sep 07 - 10:21 AM (#2147323)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: PMB

It's a slip jig. You can finish it by changing to a reel such as the Hunter's Purse.

12 Sep 07 - 10:24 AM (#2147326)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Greg B

You can leave, but you can never finish...

12 Sep 07 - 10:28 AM (#2147329)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Les in Chorlton

Greg have you been trapped in a round?

12 Sep 07 - 10:36 AM (#2147334)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Les in Chorlton

Thanks Mr Happy, I am not much good at that system of notes but I have the dots from Shrewsbury, however Ken who plays guitar would value the chords if you have them

thanks Les

12 Sep 07 - 10:37 AM (#2147335)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: GUEST,strad

It's more than 30 years old as I was playing it in the early 70's.
I believe it was written by the late John Docherty the Donegal fiddler.
Shouldn't the d notes in the second part be c's? Sounds righter.

12 Sep 07 - 10:40 AM (#2147337)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Jeri

I have one recording that ascribes it to Tommy Potts, although the notes say it's also attributed to 'anon'. There are files on the web at JC's Tunefinder that list both.

12 Sep 07 - 10:53 AM (#2147345)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Les in Chorlton

http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/10

I have discovered the entire history, more or less here so I guess I have answered my own question

"Only partly by Tommy - ?

It's my understanding that only the "A" section is fully by Tommy Potts. The "B" and "C" sections are (or are at least were based on) a traditional slip jig called Bill Groggin's Goat.
I think a good set is to play two or three rounds of Bill Groggin's Goat and on the last repeat of the "B" section play the "C" section of the Butterfly instead; and then finish off with remainder of the Butterfly."

12 Sep 07 - 10:54 AM (#2147346)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Bonnie Shaljean

AHHHHHHHHHHH!!! Thankew - Yes, it was TOMMY Potts. At least that's how I remember being corrected, in an Irish e-group who's pretty clued up about such things. [Well, I got the "Potts" bit right anyway...]

John Docherty may well have played another tune with "Butterfly" in the title - he had a treasure-trove of music at his fingertips, and some of his pieces went under different names than they were known by elsewhere.

12 Sep 07 - 10:54 AM (#2147347)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Gulliver

I read somewhere that it was composed by Tommy Potts based on an older tune. This is from the Fiddlers Companion:

BUTTERFLY [3], THE. AKA and see "Óró, a Thaidhg, a Ghrá," "Skin the Peeler(s)." Irish, Slip Jig. E Minor/Dorian. Standard. AABBCC. Composition of the "The Butterfly" is credited to the late fiddler Tommy Potts, who knew the first two parts of the tune from his father, Sean, an Uilleann piper (the two-part tune appears in Coles 1000 as "Skin the Peeler" and "Barney's Goat"). Caoimhin Mac Aoidh gives that Potts was working in his garden one day when he noticed the erratic flight of a butterfly flitting about. Intrigued, Potts tried to mimick the rhythm of the insect while he continued to work in the garden, and was inspired to come up with the third part of the tune. The first two existing parts were altered rhythmically to fit.

Don

12 Sep 07 - 10:54 AM (#2147348)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Bonnie Shaljean

Sorry Les, we cross-posted. Thanks for the info -

12 Sep 07 - 04:19 PM (#2147668)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: GUEST,kenny

Surprised no-one mentioned how it was made popular by "The Bothy Band", although Tommy Potts recorded it on his Claddagh record "The Liffey Banks". I've heard he didn't compose it outright, but re-arranged some parts of older tunes - Noel Hill once said he's heard the McDonagh brothers play parts of it years before it became popular.
An interesting comparison was pointed out to me with the melody of the Jacobite song "Come Ye O'wer Fae France" - try it yourself.
If you want a really off the wall version, listen to it by the Dutch band "Flairck" - amazing stuff.

12 Sep 07 - 07:58 PM (#2147815)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Declan

I'm not sure how much Tommy Potts had to do with its composition, but he certainly made it his own. Tommy had a fairly unique style of fiddle playing which is certainly well worth listening to, if you can find any recordinngs.

I also love the Bothy's version, which I think would owe a lot to the way Tommy Potts played the tune.

12 Sep 07 - 08:48 PM (#2147850)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Susan A-R

Kevin Burke does a beautiful solo version, messing about with the rhythm to give it that Butterfly feel. We play it with The Snowy Path (when it's either appropriate, or not tempting fate up here in Vermont where it can snow rudely and heavily in April) It's a pretty combination.

12 Sep 07 - 10:29 PM (#2147897)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: GUEST,.gargoyle

WONDERFUL Thread.

Delightful information and sourcing!!!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

just when you think "you know it all" someone slides in a "slip jig." A weekend of learning ahead.

13 Sep 07 - 12:14 AM (#2147971)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Cluin

I have it by the Chieftains on their "In Ireland" album they recorded with James Galway. They titled it "The Red Admiral Butterfly (slip jig)" but don't credit it to anyone, not even "trad". It is the only tune on the album not credited in some way. Seems like if it was a Sean Potts tune, they'd have said so.

13 Sep 07 - 12:26 AM (#2147975)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Cluin

This site says it's a trad tune called "Skin the Peelers" (strange name for that particular tune) with an additional 1st part by Tommy Potts.

13 Sep 07 - 03:19 AM (#2148016)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Anglo

And YES, Guest strad, the d notes in the B part of the ABC above should definitely be c's.

13 Sep 07 - 04:34 AM (#2148047)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: PMB

I've never heard it played with c's in the second part, though I've played it in sessions hundreds of times exactly as posted by Citizen Heureux. And I hope I never do- it sounds really off with c's in there.

13 Sep 07 - 07:02 AM (#2148135)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Mr Happy

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1xtFyPZ1mXo

13 Sep 07 - 07:10 AM (#2148139)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Mr Happy

http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/10

13 Sep 07 - 07:32 AM (#2148161)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler

It's used as the theme tune for the Manx Radio folk show on Tuesday nights (listen again facility - well download a .wma file facility - on their web site). Don't know who plays that version though.

13 Sep 07 - 07:44 AM (#2148169)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Mr Happy

Thanks GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler for the Manx Radio folk show info, great music!!

Here's a link:

http://www.manxradio.com/listenagain.aspx

13 Sep 07 - 10:43 AM (#2148329)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: GUEST,jim

There is a tune on The Session web site, http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/5835 called the catterpillar. It is a slip jig with the same chord progression a The Butterfly.

13 Sep 07 - 11:18 AM (#2148362)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Gulliver

Saying that it's in Em (dorian) seems to confuse accompanying guitarists if they're not familiar with the tune, because it seems to start in Bm--is that right?

Don

13 Sep 07 - 11:22 AM (#2148367)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Pauline L

Mr. Happy, thanks for the link. From there you can go easily to tradlessons, a great learning resource. Each tune is played first at performance speed and second at a slower speed for learning.

13 Sep 07 - 11:36 AM (#2148381)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: harpmolly

LOVE this tune...can't even think where I heard it first. It sort of feels like it just absorbed in by osmosis. All I can say is that it's great fun to play on the hammered dulcimer.

Re: the difficulty in finishing it off--it CAN'T be any worse than "Eleanor Plunkett". Resolve, damn you! I'm going out of my skull here! :D

I do love slip jigs...

M

13 Sep 07 - 12:12 PM (#2148415)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: GUEST,Jerry O'Reilly

Try dancing to slip jigs. Very strange!

13 Sep 07 - 04:22 PM (#2148455)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Steve Shaw

Apropos of resolution at the end of The Butterfly and Eleanor Plunkett (both on my CD!): I think it's just great to stop them without resolution. The Snowy Path is another such. Likewise, the jig Blarney Pilgrim is far better when the final chord played is a D...

13 Sep 07 - 07:18 PM (#2148601)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Declan

I think the Butterfly and the Snowy Path would make a lovely set.

The snowy path was composed by Altan guitarist Mark Kelly - a fellow Dub. Knowing Mark I think the fact that it's a SLIP jig and the title The Snowy Path are not coincidental.

13 Sep 07 - 07:32 PM (#2148613)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: The Sandman

Steve Shaw,I agree about The Blarney Pilgrim.

13 Sep 07 - 07:41 PM (#2148617)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Steve Shaw

Some time, when I've had a little less Highland Park than I have this evening, I'll try to think of some some more traditional pieces that work nicely when "left hanging" at the end...

13 Sep 07 - 09:28 PM (#2148696)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: GUEST,.gargoyle

STEVIE ... me boy...PLEASE even two or three titles only ...would be more than enough....SOOON!!!!

I'v only this weekend to get through the slippery stuff.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

13 Sep 07 - 11:13 PM (#2148764)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: harpmolly

Yes, a dangling unresolved chord can be fun. I personally like to end "Banish Misfortune" with a G chord (when playing in D Mix). It's a pain when I'm playing with others, though...;)

Thanks for turning me on to "The Snowy Path"...gorgeous tune!

M

13 Sep 07 - 11:21 PM (#2148768)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: GUEST,.gargoyle

OK...MollyHumrp....followed your leads....

No music....."Please Post a URL!!!"

A google led me into "Snowy Woods" worthy of a Frost

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

13 Sep 07 - 11:23 PM (#2148769)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: harpmolly

"Huh?"

Sorry, I'm slowly slipping into a food-induced coma. What info were you wanting? ;)

14 Sep 07 - 10:58 AM (#2149119)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Mooh

Simon Mayor has a nice version.

I've got it in standard notation and tabbed for guitar, mandolin, and bass if anyone is interested. PM me if you are.

Peace, Mooh.

15 Sep 07 - 02:15 PM (#2149970)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Mooh

Thanks for your interest folks. Some emails sent. Send a home email if you can, I can't seem to attach the file to the Mudcat PM.

Peace, Mooh.

15 Sep 07 - 03:33 PM (#2150018)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: redsnapper

I like to play it with the Kid on the Mountain (Bike) following.

I completely agree with Harpmolly about the lovely unresolved dangling chord/note to finish. I always finish Elsie Marley thus.

RS

16 Sep 07 - 03:01 PM (#2150580)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: ThreeSheds

Thanks Mooh youre a star!

16 Sep 07 - 03:44 PM (#2150614)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Alice

The Butterfly aka The Red Admiral Butterfly is based on Bob and Joan or Boban (or Bobbin) John, an older tune.
There is a mudcat thread about it from circa 1998.

Also see this page. http://www.nigelgatherer.com/books/CRE/cre1.html

quote
This and no. 65 are clearly related to the Scottish Jacobite song air "Cam' Ye Ower frae France" and also to Tommy Potts's The Butterfly. The song includes a reference to "Boban (or Bobbin) John", a nickname of the Jacobite leader the Earl of Mar; as Boban John, the tune was in Robert Petrie's "Fourth Collection of Strathspeys, Reels and Jiggs" (1796).

Alice

23 Dec 07 - 09:53 AM (#2221329)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Mooh

By the way, had some fun with a friend this week superimposing The Butterfly over The Angel Gabriel, with some allowances for number of bars and staying out of each other's octave to avoid dissonance. I think I'll have to write it out to make sense of it, thank goodness for Finale software.

Peace, Mooh.

23 Dec 07 - 01:01 PM (#2221400)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Les in Chorlton

It's a mesmeric little devil, is it not?

23 Dec 07 - 04:08 PM (#2221503)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Graham and Jo

goes nicely after the fox hunters, another slip jig (9/8)
Think there's a suggested set of 3 tunes in a book somewhere with Foxhunters, the Butterfly, kid on the mountain.

01 Aug 15 - 07:40 PM (#3727690)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: PHJim

Could someone suggest some chord changes for this tune?

02 Aug 15 - 05:03 AM (#3727759)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: GUEST

We have this tune in our tune book - chords and all but we are editing the book at the moment and changing some of the chords in Butterfly - as soon as it is sorted I will put a link to our version

02 Aug 15 - 07:56 AM (#3727791)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: CupOfTea

Fascinating bit of ancestry for this tune I love playing. I also learned it with c rather than d in the b part. Having just recently acquired a device to translate ABC tunes to dots and inserting tune files by the bucketload into it, I've had to do some comparison shopping to see which version is closest to the paper versions I learned from.

I know tunes passed around by aural tradition can have wee bits of variation, and when put to paper, sometimes ornaments look like part of the melody. This was a key to trying to sort out a tune name for a friend who fell in love with a piece used in the movie "The Secret of Roan Innish." My best guess was that it was a variation on "The Butterfly" which I'd only recently started to learn. That what was played might be an ancestor, or relative tune to that makes considerable sense. Thanks!

Joanne in Cleveland

02 Aug 15 - 03:07 PM (#3727847)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: michaelr

PHJim - try this:

A part - Em Em D Em Em D Em Em D   Bm..   (2x)

B part - Am..    Am Am G   Am..   C..   (2x)

C part - Em..   Em Em G   Em.. Em Em Bm   (2x)

02 Aug 15 - 04:34 PM (#3727867)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Jack Campin

It's worth trying to find Tommy Potts's own version (it's on YouTube but keeps moving around). FAR faster than the usual session speed.

03 Aug 15 - 06:12 AM (#3727931)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

While on the subject of Tommy Potts, recently I heard Liam O Connor play another of Potts' compositions. A slip jig (as far as I remember) called 'The Loom' said to recall the sound and movement of the weavers in the Coombe area of Dublin where Potts grew up. A strangely beautiful piece that I hadn't come across before (although I don't have the RTE Tommy Potts compilation CD so it may be on that).

03 Aug 15 - 04:37 PM (#3728038)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: FreddyHeadey

The Butterfly...
There are Spotify and YouTube links here Tommy+Potts/_/the+butterfly

03 Aug 15 - 05:32 PM (#3728047)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Noreen

Thanks Freddy for the links- very interesting to hear the original, which then led me to the Bothy Band version which was the first I ever came across.
Fascinating tune.

03 Aug 15 - 07:43 PM (#3728058)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: GUEST

The version used on the Manx Radio programme is by Paddy Glckin and Jolyon Jackson from their 1980 LP "Hidden Ground" on the Tara label

04 Aug 15 - 04:44 PM (#3728214)
Subject: RE: The Butterfly slip jig
From: Peter K (Fionn)

Peter Knight (ex Steeleye, latterly Gigspanner) has given it some serious workings over down the years. HERE for instance, where he takes nearly eight minutes to get round to the tune proper....