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12 Sep 07 - 12:13 PM (#2147407) Subject: Wither the Folk Festival? From: Mr Red At the risk of this devolving into a "What is Folk?" exchange (can't avoid it but we can hope it doesn't dominate) When do 'Catters make the assessment that a Festival has entered the blurry threshold that makes them question the right to use the word Folk in the title. Or do we see a slippery slope that leads all the way down very quickly to mass entertainment. I have my own candidates but this was prompted by a comment that Cambridge (not been personally) is no longer a Folk Festival. OK? Whats your threshold? - (gets back behind parapet and waits for the flash) |
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12 Sep 07 - 12:22 PM (#2147420) Subject: RE: Wither the Folk Festival? From: The Borchester Echo Do you mean you are exhorting them to succumb to an imminent demise (as in Withered & Died), or are you just getting in the obligatory horse reference before anyone else? |
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12 Sep 07 - 12:25 PM (#2147423) Subject: RE: Wither the Folk Festival? From: Ebbie Or possibly you accidentally omitted the 'h' sound and actually refer to 'where' it is going? :) 'Folk' in Juneau, Alaska, USA, is alive and well. |
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12 Sep 07 - 12:31 PM (#2147433) Subject: RE: Wither the Folk Festival? From: Mr Red No - just punning and starting the debate on: the direction some of the festivals have gone. Like booking the Waterboys and still retaining the Folk description. Far from demise this would signal the intentions to make the festival less folkie, though you can't change direction too quickly without loosing large numbers of the faithfull. It took Glastonbury a few years to make the transition. |
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12 Sep 07 - 12:34 PM (#2147435) Subject: RE: Wither the Folk Festival? From: synbyn Do you mean full-on burger-bar, marquee n mainstage, PA to the sky lites'n'firewalkers? In which case, they'll survive, Jim, But not as we know them... In the last couple of months I've been to two little-known but successful festivals- the Travelling Folk Folk'n'Ale in Upper Dicker, Sussex, and the inaugral Romney Marsh festival. Both have what I would recognise as true folk credentials- people come along and sing, sit in the hall or on the grass, add their (rich) harmonies to singarounds, cook their own tea and drink some good beer... now I think that is how the festivals started, and I don't get about much butthink that there are gatherings like this going on all over the country where folk songs are being presented in their true surroundings.. Reynardine is the more haunting for being sung surrounded only by the Sussex night... but that's the countryman in me- there's no money in all that... |
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12 Sep 07 - 12:37 PM (#2147437) Subject: RE: Wither the Folk Festival? From: DebC I'd like to hear some opinions from my fellow Americans on this as we seem to have quite a number of "folk" festivals here that (IMHO) should not have the word "folk" in their titles. Deb www.DebraCowan.com |
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12 Sep 07 - 12:47 PM (#2147449) Subject: RE: Wither the Folk Festival? From: countrylife It seems to be the same everywhere, Debra, there are a number of "folk" festivals both in Britain and Canada that should be charged under the trades description act for false advertising. I mean Solomon Burke, who appeared at the Winnipeg "Folk" Festival in 2006, is folk...? |
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12 Sep 07 - 01:34 PM (#2147500) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: treewind Depends what you meqn by "folk", innit. HORSE ALERT!!!! RUN AWAY!!!!! Anahata |
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12 Sep 07 - 01:37 PM (#2147501) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: John MacKenzie People who run folk festivals and need to make a profit tend to book people like that to put bums on seats. Or else they ask for a bigger subsidy from the local council/arts committee. Giok |
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12 Sep 07 - 01:49 PM (#2147515) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: The Borchester Echo Festivals in mainland European cities are usually free to all punters, paid for by local councils as a service to their electorate. This is because the arts (tradarts or not) are properly funded, unlike here. Those I've been at book whoever's good and who people say they want. There's be no turned up noses at the Waterboys or Solomon Burke. I once saw Genesis (OK, I didn't really want to) with the Dransfields as support in Paris. And BAP, Juliette Greco and Gilles Vigneault at the Loreleifelsen on the Mosel. Now that Led Zeppelin has reformed I hope an English festival books them as I understand tickets for their comeback concert are £145. |
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12 Sep 07 - 02:22 PM (#2147546) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: John MacKenzie So we're back to the snobbish arts aren't arts unless they're elitist argument as far as funding is concerned are we? Not that I disagree with you Diane, but to borrow from another thread where I seem to have upset a few people [GOOD!] Maybe we need a few more Eton and the Guards type people to give us a bit of weight in the arts funding tug-of-war. Even someone like Chris Smith pushing our case maybe? Giok |
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12 Sep 07 - 02:35 PM (#2147561) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Phil Cooper There are a couple folk festivals in the US that seem to not be presenting much of what I think of as folk. There's one that prominently mentions the word "traditional" in it's title that does not seem to book anything but contemporary acts. |
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12 Sep 07 - 02:56 PM (#2147575) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Bill D People want to go to festivals with semi-(at least) acoustic music, but there are fewer people around doing mostly traditional music these days....so, they add in people doing singer-songwriter stuff and Electric Celtic and ...and...and the younger audiences don't understand the difference anyway. Most everyone has a good time and the ads and signs are easier to make for *FOLK FESTIVAL** than for "Festival of mostly acoustic music from all over, with lots of up & coming kids who are trying to make it BIG with their own songs, and who owe a vague debt to Traditional music" I know of several festivals where I can count on a reasonable % of tolerably 'folk/trad' music, but as organizers get old & tired, the newer ones just don't make the effort to distinguish anymore. I KNOW that down in the hills of Appalachia, there are still local festivals which are 92.628% trad/folk, but I seldom get that far. I have my records and memories. |
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12 Sep 07 - 03:02 PM (#2147577) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: GUEST They're all bad. A disgrace. Try Ireland. |
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12 Sep 07 - 03:16 PM (#2147591) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: GUEST,countrylife Well Robert Plant HAS appeared a Cropredy a couple of times, to my knowlege. He and Dave Pegg go back to the Brumbeat days, with Band of Joy and The Ugleys |
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12 Sep 07 - 04:13 PM (#2147661) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Bonzo3legs Well, during my return flight from Spain this morning, courtesy of British Stairways - lunching on Duck and a bottle of Malbec, I listened to some Argentine folk in the form of tango played by Gotan Project. They are lucky not to be caught up in the rediculous web of what is and what isn't folk music. |
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12 Sep 07 - 05:06 PM (#2147706) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: GUEST,countrylife some people do confuse folk music with acoustic music |
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12 Sep 07 - 05:25 PM (#2147720) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: BB "there are fewer people around doing mostly traditional music these days" I think that's less true in the UK these days - it would be relatively easy to put together a festival of almost entirely traditional music and song, with guest artists right across the age range. If I had time, and the energy to get some sponsorship as a safety net, I wouldn't mind having a go at setting one up. And there are still festivals over here - not just the sort that Synbyn's talking about (which in terms of context are probably closer to the tradition than those booking guests), which manage to book mostly traditional-style performers, and are very successful. Barbara |
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12 Sep 07 - 06:00 PM (#2147740) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Jon Bartlett I have no problem with any kind of music at any kind of festival - all I want is a word that describes the stuff I like (non-professional singers/musicians playing traditional music, where the distinction between musician/singer/listener is minimal). Is there anywhere a list of such festivals? Jon Bartlett |
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12 Sep 07 - 06:27 PM (#2147750) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Grab The threshold? For me, the condition for it being a folk festival is that people there have got to be more than passive spectators, because for me the difference between folk and "other" music is the breakdown of "us-and-them" where only a select few get to have a go. So workshops, singarounds, sessions, open-mikes, dances - if you ain't got them, it ain't a folk festival. And the further away you are from the performers, the less likely it is to be a folk festival. Graham. |
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12 Sep 07 - 06:34 PM (#2147753) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Banjiman hmmmmmm, The Winter Warmer Weekend being organised by Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club in February will have singaround/ musicians session in one room and "performed" trad folk, contemporary folk, folk rock and some "acoustic" in the other room. Jon, how do I describe that in a catchy strapline other than calling it a folk weekend? I (and I would assume others) enjoy all these related genres, what is wrong with putting them on at the same event? Paul |
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12 Sep 07 - 08:00 PM (#2147817) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Jon Bartlett I think where you have a consonant crowd, sharing the same acoustic "space", you have a stronger festival. The danger (from my POV) is that two or more such "spaces" dissipates the unity. People who come for "folk rock" will mostly (in my experience) not leave to investigate traditional music, and vice versa. So you have two acoustic "spaces".(Paul, I suspect you're a rare bird, in liking both). An example of a consonant crowd? Mystic Seaport Sea Festival. I have no knowledge of UK equivalents, and I'm sure there's many. But where? Jon Bartlett |
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13 Sep 07 - 04:40 AM (#2148048) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Dick The Box Can't see what the problem is, after all it's just a label. I doubt that any one goes to the Cambridge "Folk" Festival based on the title and then act all surprised when they get there and find it's not what they expected. If they haven't read the blurb or looked at the website before they go to find out who is on and what you get for your money, then they deserve all they get (or don't get). Trying to pigeon hole music is an impossible task because even if you could agree on the labels you would never agree which label went on what. The son of a friend of mine is in an "indie" type band and I asked what type of music they played. His answer was to the effect that it had no label, and if anyone managed to put a label on it then they would stop doing it and do something else. My philosophy is to seek out the music I enjoy irrespective of how it is marketed, and to try new stuff without any preconceptions. PS I have never looked at any forums for "Jazz" or "Classical" or "Blues" or whatever but I bet they still get their knickers in a twist over the same semantics as us "Folkies"...... |
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13 Sep 07 - 06:23 AM (#2148109) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Bonzo3legs Well said Dick the Box. Incidentally accoustic means nothing when Penguin Eggs is turned up to deafening in my car!! I will listen to accoustic folk at the same sound levels as Led Zeppelin in my car. |
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13 Sep 07 - 06:34 AM (#2148114) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Folkiedave Some events deliberately don't use the word folk. Would Glasgow Folk Festival have the same cachet as "Celtic Connections" or to use the example of a smaller festival would Ulverston Folk Festival be the same as "Furness Traditions"? I suspect not. |
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13 Sep 07 - 07:56 AM (#2148173) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Mr Red Led Zeppelin? Led Zeppelin? (get that horse outa here) Was I dreaming (not! with the excrutiating volume coming out of the auditorium that night?) Or did I notice a Robert Planted in a Folk Festival somewhere , a town or too back, that is now too big for that charming little town that gave them character? And a leg up. And was I told, totally unprompted, that the festival would always be Folk. Well yes actually. Organiser was obviously stung by someone elses comment at the time and needed to alay suspicion. The most galling thing is I bought it. At the time. Festivals don't have to be big to pay for everything. They choose to be, and it gives organisers a full-time job. Then it has to grow or get paranoid about losses. And big means big losses. And Pop stars (faded or revived) are good insurance, but they ain't folk just cos they can sing. Now Sting, playing his pavanes would wow any folk audience that could afford him but where did he go to after that flirtation? |
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13 Sep 07 - 10:19 AM (#2148294) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: GUEST,Russ The only festival I attend with the word "Folk" in the title is the West Virginia State Folk Festival, Glenville, WV. It is still a folk festival in what we might call the "classical" sense. Most of the musicians on stage are "traditional" by any definition. It is alive and well. Russ (Permanent GUEST, traditional musician) |
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13 Sep 07 - 10:53 AM (#2148340) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: John MacKenzie That's because Celtic Connections isn't really a folk festival Dave. It's a celebration of Celtic music, and the connections are pretty tenuous at times, but for the most part enjoyable. G ¦¬] |
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13 Sep 07 - 12:27 PM (#2148426) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Folkiedave At the beginning in 1994 when it was still called Celtic Connections, there were cultural events granted but the music was (celtic)folk. In response to the many requests from patrons for a broad based Celtic music programme, staff at the Concert Hall devised "the Celtic Connections Festival" which will take place over a fortnight in mid January '94, '95 and '96. This year the emphasis is on celtic folk groups and singers, modern celtic art, the art of conversation, a fashion show and a number of ceilidhs. The folk groups, singers, celtic art, talks and ceilidhs have continued to this day. However the fashion show was never to be repeated. There is no-one at the first two festivals I have not seen (or would like to see) at a what most people would regard as an "ordinary" folk festival, in fact I have a seen a few of them at folk clubs!! Only in year three did it become more of a cross-cultural event as it is now. |
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14 Sep 07 - 04:44 AM (#2148884) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: GUEST,Growler BEER !!! |
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14 Sep 07 - 05:56 AM (#2148918) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Trevor I can't be arsed with the debate over what is and isn't folk music - I just like what I like and it just so happens that that is usually something traditional but not necessarily performed in what may be described as a 'traditional' style, or something that wouldn't be described in as traditional music but performed with simplicity. I think! (Although I also enjoy simple music with complex voice arrangements, for instance). Anyway, having confused myself about that, and reading Mr Red's comments on the Shrewsbury FF thread, I have to say that I took my son and a friend's daughter, aged 29 and 20 respectively, to Shrewsbury for their first taste of a 'folk' festival. They loved Show of Hands, Salsa Celtica and, in particular, Bellowhead. One of the outcomes is that he has been listening to recordings of Spiers and Boden, spotted a track that I have a recording of by somebody else performing in a more 'traditional' mode and unearthed the history of the piece. Bellowhead caught his attention, kept him engaged, excited him and has, maybe, started him on a road that I never could with my band's a capella renditions of 'folk' music. If as a result of that he goes to smaller festivals, pub sessions, singarounds and so on then, IMHO, Shrewsbury Folk Festival, and others that get bums on seats, are performing a service to traditional music and deserve to be recognised. There'll be someone there when the rest of us have gone to the great (not too loud)ceilidh in the sky! |
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14 Sep 07 - 06:53 AM (#2148944) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Roughyed Sting used to play at Northern Counties college folk club. I know because I was on the committee. Mind you it was in 1973. He seems to have drifted a bit since then. |
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14 Sep 07 - 07:17 AM (#2148963) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Folkiedave That's what happens when you let people do what they want without some definition of folk. |
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14 Sep 07 - 10:36 AM (#2149101) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Mr Happy To amend the expression, 'Yer takes yer choice, & yer pays yer money [or not]' In Britain there's piles've festivals large & small, big organised events + plenty DIY smaller do's. Personally preferring the informal gatherings where no 'big name' paid artistes appear [unless voluntarily] + 'fringing at organised pay fests. As some above have said, a folk fest at which there's little opportunity for 'ordinary' singers & musos to have communal SARs & sesshes doesn't really fulfil the sense of the 'traditional' Also, I feel there really is a sort of split happens at the big ticket fests. The biggest group of punters consists of the passive audience types who attend all the concerts & not really interested in participation events like sinarounds & music sessions & ceilidhs/country dancing. Then there's those like meself & chums who rarely attend a concert, but are very much more interested in the participatory events. |
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14 Sep 07 - 10:43 AM (#2149109) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Mr Happy oops pressed submit too soon! Furthermore, its pretty obvious, if you don't like it - don't do it! If you want an event to occur & nought exists, you can always do your own thing. For the past coupla years Mr Happy & Fiends have done just that & a gang of folk from all over have had a free for all do in the Peak District |
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14 Sep 07 - 11:11 AM (#2149135) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Folkiedave Another correspondent has shown the problem with this approach in another thread. I am all in favour of self-organised do's for people who can then do what they want. So let me make that clear. And good luck to you all. But there are musicians moving the boundaries of folk music forward (sometimes backwards of course!!) If all you ever do is sing with your mates then all you will ever hear (basically) are the songs your mates choose to learn and sing. If none of your mates are fiddle players or melodeon players or pipers then you are denying yourself the opportunity of seeing some remarkable talent. Your choice and I am not seeking either to denigrate it or deny it. But it is not simply a passive "entertain me" philosophy that makes people go to concerts it can be very much "I want to see and hear wonderful musicians at the top of their profession" philosophy as well. And people on Mudcat do come along and start threads saying where are the good young singers? Or why isn't folk seen as sexy and where are the punk folk bands? They are out there - good young professional singers, researching songs, seeking out quality material and presenting it in a totally professional way, attracting the next generation of folkies. Equally there are some great bands out there playing some fantastic music and also attracting the next generation of folkies. My feeling about festival audiences - and I have done eight festivals of differing sizes this year - is that they are a mixture who want to see the big name concert artistes of course, who often move to the dance tent afterwards, and may go to a session at lunchtime. Of course if you really want to know what is happening in the world of folk, you can always listen to Mike Harding. :-) |
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14 Sep 07 - 11:47 AM (#2149184) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Mr Happy Folkiedave, With all due respect to your opinion too, I'm merely addressing Mr Red's bemoaning of what he perceives as what's lacking in many current fests. |
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14 Sep 07 - 11:56 AM (#2149196) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Mr Happy I also don't feel deprived as you put it. We travel to many events outside our area, sesshes, sinarounds, FCs etc & also at our DIYs experience a very wide diversity of performance inc instruments, singers of all kinds. |
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14 Sep 07 - 12:16 PM (#2149209) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Folkiedave I didn't mean to suggest you were deprived. I do all of those things you do AND I go to festival with professional performers. And I am a regular attender at folk events. But I am retired and lucky that way. But I can't sing, cant play, cant do monologues, can't tell jokes - in fact I am indistinguishable from Des O'Connor. So in many ways at sessions I am like a french kiss at a funeral. And there are a lot of people like me. All I object to is those who argue that what THEY do with their mates is REAL folk and what I do - some of the time listening to professional artistes is passive listening. I don't see it like that. |
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14 Sep 07 - 01:04 PM (#2149249) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Big Al Whittle You're not going to enjoy everything at a festival. Sometimes you think you won't enjoy anthing, but you get surprised. Sometimes your favourite artist turns in a crap performance. They're all only human. You've just got to take them for what they are, and most of the time, they're okay. Usually the company is good, the organisers are considerate and pleasant and quite efficient. Often you see new and interesting ways of playing. These are the modest expectations that sre usually fulfilled, and sometimes exceeded in periods of nice weather. Unless an artist arises - young and charismatic with mass popular appeal, like Bob Dylan did and gives the whole thing a kick up the arse, I think the folk festival phenomena will plod along and burn itself out sometime this century - as the 60's generation peg out. |
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14 Sep 07 - 03:03 PM (#2149352) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Folkiedave i>Unless an artist arises - young and charismatic with mass popular appeal, like Bob Dylan did and gives the whole thing a kick up the arse, I think the folk festival phenomena will plod along and burn itself out sometime this century - as the 60's generation peg out. That'll explain why there were loads of new festivals this year and that some established ones like Shrewsbury have had a massive expansion. It'll also explain why there are lots of new young bands and groups and singers coming onto the scene. And of course bands like Whapweasel, Bellowhead,(they not fit into your young charismatic popular appeal criteria then?) Demon Barbers, Glorystrokes, Hekety, Crucible, Glorystrokes, Last Orders, Kerfuffle haven't taken the music forward at all. All the festivals I go to have loads of young people who come to see bands like these. That's without Seth Lakeman and Eliza Carthy. |
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19 Sep 07 - 01:29 PM (#2152754) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Mr Red Labels, Labels, Labels. Let us consider a hyperthetical breakfast spread. You want jam on your toast, and the jar (no label) contains......... chutney. So, what's the problem, it is full of sugar and fruit, it spreads. It is yummy. So why did you have the temerity to prefer jam? Expectation (i.e. label) is part of the experience and disappointment isn't, usually. As for Shrewsbury - no-one has accused them of not having folk acts in 2007, not in any realistic way. Cider and ceilidhs permitting, I may just revive this thread in 8 years time and we can compare notes and discuss what the years and the business plan has produced. Think Cambridge. That is the target after all. When festivals get to a certain size the punters they have now attracted begin to change the labels anyway, AND the business plan. So does fashion, there are fashions even in the broad church we know as Folk. But there are personal limits to misusing words. see above. |
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20 Sep 07 - 03:00 AM (#2153239) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Big Al Whittle I suppose you had to experience the Dylan phenomena to undertand why folk clubs were full. This guys songs had been hit records before anybody ever heard him. Everybody knew blowing in the wind, don't think twice. And when I say everybody, I don't mean gang of saddos in a field - I mean actually everybody irrespective of of age and condition, in a time when record factories couldn't keep up with demand. they can't chuck way the stuff thats in the charts nowadays. a contestant came on the X factor last week, and the panel asked - what's your ambition, and she said to sell 100 thousand records. I sold that many of my one relatively succssful song in 1983 - it made number 42 in the charts. that is the nature of sales decline and dissociation of public taste and the music industry. the folk music world is just part of an international trend. It all comes down to the songs. I just haven't heard a song that makes you think - well theres going to be something bloody exciting going on at the local folk club or festival. |
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20 Sep 07 - 04:05 AM (#2153251) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: GUEST,old git "Think Cambridge. That is the target after all.".....er...Noooooo! |
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20 Sep 07 - 04:31 AM (#2153261) Subject: RE: W(h)ither the Folk Festival? From: Liz the Squeak Jon Bartlett - the events you seem to be wanting to attend, mainly seem to be the 'fringe' events, the sort of music that will happen regardless of who is booked, where two or more are gathered together with a songbook and a melodeon. Towersey festival (August Bank Holiday weekend) in Oxfordshire has a very strong 'fringe' event in the village pub - in fact, it's spread out from the festival into a regular session, last Thursday of the month. The Wareham Wail (first weekend in September) is a whole weekend of nothing but singing in a beer tent and eating. No booked artists, no stage, no PA, no fringe events (unless you count birdsong as fringe) and no end of fun! Those are two that I know of, there may be many more, but it's a case of, as said above, you pay your money and make your choice. Or in my case, I apply to steward and take me choice! LTS |