To Thread - Forum Home

The Mudcat Café TM
https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=105248
105 messages

Interesting e-mail

04 Oct 07 - 02:18 AM (#2163369)
Subject: Interesting e-mail
From: Herge

Just though I'd share this e-mail I got today from a 'fan' in USA - for your info our bands website is www.hastetothewedding.com:

To Whom It May Concern,

   I came across your website while searching and I will start out by saying that I am more privy to what TRUE Irish Music is to sound like then the average person today! And I am of Irish Traveller heritage from America but am also a dual citizen of Ireland through that ancestry and have lived on and off in Ireland over the years. First off, you are not a true Irish band once you have a guitar which is an instrument of Spanish and Portuguese culture. It was in the 1950's when Irish Music was first contaminated with this instrument which has infiltrated the mainstream ever since. The problem is that originally Irish Music was strictly the music of the Tinkers and when the invaders began to get ahold of it that was the end of it except for those few people left who played it in their barrel-tops or mud wall cottages!
   And to name your band "Haste To The Wedding" is an absolute insult to the Travellers because whether you know it or not that was originally a song about a Travellers wedding! There is no joy in your music which is missing in every so-called "Irish" band out there today and I know what it is supposed to sound like since I have musicians in my family who would not degrade themselves to play for anyone other then their own kin! And I am only 28 years of age to boot but I have had a mother and ancestors who took the time to hand this down to me and my great-grandfather was a Moonlighter from Kerry and none of you in Ireland would be anywhere if it was not for someone like him! And now whenever I go over to Ireland I am treated like an idiot just because they hear my American accent! But, I know my history and everyone in Ireland today with the exception of very, very few are afraid to think about the ones who were pushed to America since they were the strongest fighters and would not cut deals with the Limies! Everything which is of real, solid, tradition is hated in Ireland today. And lastly, at the spot where your website states to click to hear Haste To The Wedding, what I heard was not even that tune. So, just wanted you to know that there is still a thinking person out there who cannot be snowed on who the original peoples of Ireland are and what their music is supposed to sound like!

Good Luck In Trying to Imitate Us,


04 Oct 07 - 02:22 AM (#2163371)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST,A descendant of Sullivan

Fans like that you can do without!


04 Oct 07 - 02:40 AM (#2163375)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Darowyn

Am I wrong in thinking that "tinkers" are culturally part of the Roma (Romany/traveller) tradition, and thus relatively recent immigrants to Ireland, as compared with the "true Irish" of the Gaeltacht who are descendents of the original hunter gatherers who walked into Eirne across what is now the Channel ?
Cheers
Dave


04 Oct 07 - 04:22 AM (#2163407)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST,nickp (cookieless)

Funny, I always thought HTTW was of English descent...


04 Oct 07 - 04:28 AM (#2163410)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: The Villan

Categorising drives people bonkers.
You do what you do. If people enjoy it, then so much the better. If they don't then thats up to them. If yuou enjoy doing what you do, then thats great.
Stick with what you are doing and ignore e-mails like that.


04 Oct 07 - 04:32 AM (#2163414)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Ruth Archer

Oh Herge, that post is hilarious! Dontcha just love internet nutters?


04 Oct 07 - 04:52 AM (#2163420)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Hawker

Why do people appoint themselves experts when they obviously have an opinion rather than a sound knowledge. Cant we all just get on with each other and enjoy the sharing of music for what it it not what it might or should be? What a sad old world eh?
Cheers Lucy


04 Oct 07 - 04:54 AM (#2163422)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: The Borchester Echo

It's entirely bonkers. HTTW is just another jig in D that isn't even on the CD being complained about. It just needs someone to come along and moan that it was really invented by W S Gilbert or that the Corrs wrote it themselves. As I expect someone will in a minute.


04 Oct 07 - 05:05 AM (#2163424)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST,Johnmc

I would only say to young Herge that what his tradition needs from others is tolerance, a live and let live attitude. He is in danger of alienating such potential allies.


04 Oct 07 - 05:13 AM (#2163427)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: The Sandman

Categorising drives people bonkers[VILLAN]
Quite true ,but when I put the subject up for discussion[How important is the label Traditional Singer]Quite afew mudcatters,are unhappy about the label being removed.
The only important thing is doing it [singing and playing],which is what I am going to do now.Dick Miles


04 Oct 07 - 05:15 AM (#2163428)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Mo the caller

I listened to the tune. It's not the English Haste to the Wedding (none the worse for that).


04 Oct 07 - 05:20 AM (#2163431)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Bryn Pugh

There is a Morris dance 'Haste to the Wedding', the Bledington and Longborough traditions.

Who borrowed from whom ?

Mind you, Jinky Wells (Bampton) played 'The Flowers of Edinburgh'.

Who borrowed from whom ?

As to a Septic being a 'Guardian of Tradition', that's the funniest thing I've heard in ages.


04 Oct 07 - 05:33 AM (#2163437)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Pete_Standing

Haste to the Wedding was written by the Corrs.

There you go, without hesitation, deviation or repetition, except the word the.


04 Oct 07 - 05:39 AM (#2163441)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST,Shimrod

In my experience categorising tends to drive people with very rigid preconceived ideas bonkers. Such people dream up 'theories' and then expect the evidence to support those theories. Often, when the evidence doesn't fit with their notions, they start to take extreme positions - for example, rejecting the very idea of categories.

This is, of course, absurd. Experience of everyday life makes it glaringly obvious that existence isn't one huge, undifferentiated lump!

Unfortunately, some categories may have grey or fuzzy edges and there may be exceptions and anomalies and this makes some people uncomfortable. It shouldn't though - it is just the way things are.

From a scientific viewpoint the existence of exceptions and anomalies is exciting and if enough of these pile up then the categories may have to be re-assigned (and no, Cap'n - this doesn't mean that I believe that the categories 'revival' and 'traditional', as applied to singers, are wrong! You've got a lot of work to do in order to convince me otherwise).


04 Oct 07 - 05:41 AM (#2163442)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Geoff the Duck

One thing you can guarantee in this life is that, if you hang around long enough, you will meet some absolute nutters.
The internet just makes it easier for them to find you.

And now whenever I go over to Ireland I am treated like an idiot - perhaps because the Irish, who are the most logical people I have ever encountered, can recognise an "eejit" at a hundred paces.

And I am only 28 years of age to boot - so perhaps it's time someone gave him a good boot.

As for "Tinkers". I don't believe that the tinkers ever had any ancestry in common with the romany folk. They were itinerant workers who mended pots and kettles, who used similar transport. Certainly these days (and I am being deliberately incendiary, so don't get up in arms about the comment, please!) Irish Tinkers are the people who park their caravans on waste ground near factories and steal all the iron railings. They are the people who turn up on your doorstep pretending to have "left over tarmac" from a motorway construction job and "we'll do your drive cheap". If that's the proud race he wants to belong to, he's wecome to it.
Quack!
GtD.


04 Oct 07 - 05:43 AM (#2163445)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Ruth Archer

"As to a Septic being a 'Guardian of Tradition', that's the funniest thing I've heard in ages."

Easy, tiger. Have you looked at EFDSS or the VWML recently?


04 Oct 07 - 05:45 AM (#2163447)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: manitas_at_work

It's not surprising that HTTW is well known on both sides of the Irish Sea. Don't forget that the 18th and 19th centuries were times of great cultural interchange between England and Ireland with large numbers of Irishmen in the army and navy and large numbers of irish navigators bulding first canals and then railroads in England. There would have been quite a few tunes swapped around campfires.

As for Herge's critic he is obviously unaware that Belfast is a long way from Kerry and that musical styles and traditions are regional rather than national.

As someone who has more yours of playing music from Ireland than this guy has lived and has had the pleasure to play along with Herge I can truly say that his opinions are bollox!

I suspect it's not his accent that marks him out.


04 Oct 07 - 05:53 AM (#2163450)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: The Borchester Echo

HTTW is also a longways set dance, it's included in the New England Fiddler and Chris Leslie does it. And none of these are on the CD Herge has been listening to clips from.
What s/he hasn't grasped is that HTTW is the name of the band who play a wide variety of dance music from different traditions in strict time.

(learned from th bleedin' Corrs, obviously).


04 Oct 07 - 05:54 AM (#2163451)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work

more yours?

You mean years... it's the blow to the head that's done it.


LTS


04 Oct 07 - 06:04 AM (#2163452)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Morticia

Oh bless......that's the most wonderful example of tortured english I've heard in years....do they have the interwebs in loony bins these days?


04 Oct 07 - 06:06 AM (#2163453)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: TheSnail

you are not a true Irish band once you have a guitar which is an instrument of Spanish and Portuguese culture

I wonder what he thinks are the true Irish instruments. The violin? (Italian). The Anglo (properly Anglo-German) concertina? The button accordeon (Italian?). The pipes? (universal).

Ah, of course! It's the bouzouki.


04 Oct 07 - 06:25 AM (#2163460)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST,Smash The Windows

Never argue with a tinker! I once heard of someone who told Johnny Doran that he was playing out of tune. The next night he had a crowd of twenty tinkers round his house, throwing bricks through the windows.

So yer man the Tinker is 100% right!


04 Oct 07 - 06:25 AM (#2163461)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: The Borchester Echo

Apologies for naming Herge as author of he email when s/he wasn't but is actually a member of the band HTTW (and doubtless plays a version of said tune on authentic Irish bouzouki for all I know, bought on eBay from someone called Irving or Moynihan and about to be covered by the Corrs or one of the Blacks).


04 Oct 07 - 06:29 AM (#2163462)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: The Borchester Echo

. . . and for accidenally missplling Mr Irvine's name.


04 Oct 07 - 06:33 AM (#2163464)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST,.gargoyle

It appears the lad has a valid point. Your band is sort of the "riverdance" entertainment equivalent. Folk will still hire you though.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


04 Oct 07 - 06:34 AM (#2163465)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Leadfingers

The Bouzouki was intrduced to Irish music by Andy Irvin , the Bodhran came from Cewntral Europe to Ireland in the early part 0f the twentieth century - Probalbly the nearest there really is to an 'Irish' instrument is the whistle !
The world would be a lot happier place if we could get rid of ALL the exremists , wether in Music , Politics , Religion , or any or field of Human Activity !


04 Oct 07 - 06:40 AM (#2163467)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: The Borchester Echo

Well of course, as any fule kno, harps were imported from Heaven.


04 Oct 07 - 06:40 AM (#2163468)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Leadfingers

Typos Rule!! Ce(w)ntral !! And no E for Andy Irvinme ! AND no o in introduced - My Word - I am having a good day !


04 Oct 07 - 06:49 AM (#2163477)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: John MacKenzie

You told me your typos only happened in my chat room Terry!
A little economic with the actualité perhaps ☺
Giok


04 Oct 07 - 07:29 AM (#2163494)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST,banjoman

There is no place in music for pontificating idiots who just want to air their own bigitted opinions. As far as I see it, music is for everyone regardless of history, race, creed or colour. So. keep playing and enjoying.
PS I exclude melodeons from any musical reference (said tongue in cheek as I also play Jaws Harp)


04 Oct 07 - 07:38 AM (#2163502)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST,Smash The Windows

The only authentic Irish instruments are instruments bones and bone whisteles !


04 Oct 07 - 07:50 AM (#2163509)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST,Smash The Windows

Oh, and these:

Wicklow Pipes


04 Oct 07 - 08:01 AM (#2163513)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: kendall

If you go back far enough in history, there are no authentic instruments, eh?


04 Oct 07 - 08:05 AM (#2163516)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: redsnapper

Corrigendum! The bouzouki was actually introduced to Irish music by Johnny Moynihan AFAIK

RS


04 Oct 07 - 08:18 AM (#2163521)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Mark H.

Nutters like that ought to get out less.
When my old band, Hokum, did "St. James Infirmary" ("Gambler's Blues") one time, a member of the audience appeared prepared to fight to "prove" that Cab Calloway wrote it. Mention of the ballad "The Unfortunate Rake", a possible precursor, might have tipped him over the edge.
Nice post, Herge, and I hope to see more of the same.


04 Oct 07 - 08:19 AM (#2163522)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: jacqui.c

I know what it is supposed to sound like since I have musicians in my family who would not degrade themselves to play for anyone other then their own kin!

No wonder that version of Irish music is not known. Music is meant to be shared and broadcast, not held to a small group like a miser hoarding wealth.


04 Oct 07 - 08:25 AM (#2163525)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: The Fooles Troupe

Wibble, wibble, wibble!

(Puts fingers in ears)

Lalalalalalalalalalalalalalala!


04 Oct 07 - 08:43 AM (#2163542)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Bryn Pugh

Dear Ruth Archer,

Perhaps that was a bit heavy, but my Mommy is American.

(We all have our crosses to bear . . . :-)


04 Oct 07 - 08:50 AM (#2163546)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: IrvineJ

"No wonder that version of Irish music is not known. Music is meant to be shared and broadcast, not held to a small group like a miser hoarding wealth."

Folk clubs?


04 Oct 07 - 08:54 AM (#2163550)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: jacqui.c

All the folk clubs that I have known, both in the UK and the USA, welcome newcomers. I've never been to one that doesn't encourage new performers either.


04 Oct 07 - 09:05 AM (#2163556)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: IrvineJ

some clubs i've frequented generally play to the same group of people week in week out, and when a newcomer arrives they throw themselves soo hard at the unfortunate newcomer that they generally don't come back.

then again, some other clubs like Hitchin FC and of that ilk are wonderful places to watch this brilliant music. Swings and roundabouts. We're digressing.


04 Oct 07 - 09:05 AM (#2163557)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: SINSULL

Poor soul is mentally ill. Only he knows what is. Move on, people, there is nothing to see here.


04 Oct 07 - 09:17 AM (#2163561)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST,irishenglish

Pity he couldn't come on here and have his arguments dissected one by one, but then again....probably best to let it go!


04 Oct 07 - 09:29 AM (#2163568)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GLoux

When was traditional Irish music contaminated by the violin?


04 Oct 07 - 10:02 AM (#2163588)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Maryrrf

That e-mail was uncalled for, stupid and pointless, and I'm not surprised that whoever sent it gets treated like an idiot when he's in Ireland. Irish music strictly the music of the tinkers?????


04 Oct 07 - 10:13 AM (#2163599)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: JedMarum

The band sounds great, Herge. Funny to get such a note from this small minded bigot. This person is so deluded is difficult to know where to begin a countering argument! And in fact - so far off base there's no need to.

keep up the great sounds!


04 Oct 07 - 10:19 AM (#2163607)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Peace

Herge:

How did your 'fan' respond when you told him to get fu#ked?


04 Oct 07 - 10:43 AM (#2163631)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Herge

I have asked him to send me some samples of him playing 'irish music'to see where I have been going wrong for so long. I'll share his reply and refer him to Mudcat

herge


04 Oct 07 - 11:09 AM (#2163659)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: TheSnail

GLoux

When was traditional Irish music contaminated by the violin?

Not really sure. Must have been 17th or 18th century. Downhill all the way since then.


04 Oct 07 - 11:12 AM (#2163663)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST,Mr. Norrell

If this is to be believed, which I have a feeling it shouldn't (the term chain yanking comes to mind)then the line "And I am of Irish Traveller heritage from America" should answer all....this person says of Traveller heritage (filtered through what, one wonders),which pretty much waters down their claim to be so bleedin' high and mighty.


04 Oct 07 - 11:19 AM (#2163671)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST,Mr Norrell

I'm guessing that this Herge is no fan of Johnny Moynihan, what with his introduction of the bouzouki into Irish music and all, but no matter, I'm still a fan of Sweeney's Men (this name is Irish enough for you, is it, Herge?). One final question...Herge..this is a Rom or an Irish name? ;-)


04 Oct 07 - 11:25 AM (#2163678)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Herge

I'm Herge - the one that received the e-mail I did not write it!!!!! Just passing it on.


04 Oct 07 - 11:32 AM (#2163683)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST,leeneia

"First off, you are not a true Irish band once you have a guitar..."

Irish composer Thomas Moore was using the guitar in the late 18th Century.


04 Oct 07 - 11:45 AM (#2163691)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Richard Bridge

Hmm, perhaps it was Irish music and the tinkers stole it (ducks for coat, and runs.....)


04 Oct 07 - 12:06 PM (#2163709)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST

sorry, Richard I thought you said you were offering some ducks for a coat....*LOL*
anyway...that feeling of chain yanking will not dissipate....and this e-mail, of course, was not signed....anyway....up yours on a bread roll with mustard, Good Luck In Trying to Imitate Us...


04 Oct 07 - 12:07 PM (#2163711)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST,Mr. Norrell

oops that last "guest" posting was me *LOL*


04 Oct 07 - 01:05 PM (#2163752)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Big Mick

The only thing traditional about the music and instrumentation of the Irish people (and most of the other country based "traditions" out there) is that they will change and evolve by generation. If one looked at the "traditional" Irish bands of the early 20th century, they would have been playing different instrumentation. And the arrangements would have been different. 100 years before that, same situation. The Uilleann pipes in their current version are a relatively new instrument. The "Irish Bouzouki" didn't exist in its present form prior to about the mid '60's. But one thing is very definitely traditional. It is traditional for half wit bigots, usually from the USA, to make idiotic pronouncements like this person did. And it is traditional for pompous know it alls on the other side of the pond to assume that all Yanks are like this one.

Life goes on, and so does the music.......

Mick


04 Oct 07 - 01:07 PM (#2163753)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Big Mick

BTW, Herge, I am a pretty fair judge, IMO, of a good sound and a good band. And yours sounds wonderful to me.

Mick


04 Oct 07 - 01:09 PM (#2163756)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Skivee

This Tinker's damnation has shown a light on a dreadful problem. The bastardization of folk traditions by those outsiders. The hill people aren't our people, and they ruin everything they touch.
Some idiots would insist that the tradtition is a living expression of ancient Irish culture in a modern world; that using the complexity of instruments made available through the advance of technology allows for exploration of new way to express that tradition. But what do they know.
I'm glad that this fellow has cleared up our misconceptions.
It is obvious that Herge's band doesn't meet the standard of authenticity (I haven't heard them, but if the "fan's" opinion carries any weight, they must be real rotters, one and all). Now that they have had the scales removed from their eyes, I'm sure that they know how foolish it is to play Irish music at all. If they have any integrety at all they will immediately break up. How DARE they not play music in precisely the way that this fellow (who it appears isn't a musician, but knows some) imagines that is was played 200 years ago. Perhaps they should burn their instruments in case they have any urges to play again...and bite their tongues whenever they feel like a bit of sean nos.
The Chieftains, the Bothy Band, Planxty, DeDannan and a thousand others have done a great disservice to the tradition. The surviving members should all be beaten with sticks, or at least punched in the nose...or maybe kicked in the shins and had poop flung on them.


04 Oct 07 - 01:21 PM (#2163763)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Mr Red

categorising poeple who are bonkers drives them mad.


04 Oct 07 - 01:28 PM (#2163770)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Big Mick

It has been a long time since we have had a good poop flinging fight......oh...... wait....... look at the threads...... never mind.

***chuckle***

Mick


04 Oct 07 - 01:32 PM (#2163774)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Declan

Irish Music predates the travellers, although many of them have made major contributions to it. Some say the music dates back to the Celtic tribes and label it Celtic Music (as they drink their Bulmers cider), others say it originates from the Tuath De Dannan (at least around Galway since the mid 70s). I always maintain that the music comes from a tribe called the Fir Bolg (which is a gaelic phrase meaning Stomach Men). There are usually lots of Fir Bolg to be found at Irish Traditional Music festivals.

Given that I have a Norman surname, I'm not qualified to say anything about Irish Music because my people have only been here for less than a thousand years.

Whoever used the word Eejit to describe the sender of this email got it right.

Declan (Who contaminates Irish Music with iberian instruments on a regular basis).


04 Oct 07 - 01:44 PM (#2163785)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Fliss

Mmmm to join in the fray or not to.... ah well.

No mention of banjo.... its accepted as traditional and the guitar which is older isnt. In the Comhaltas Fleadh the banjo has its own competition and the guitar is in the miscellaneous section. I have never worked out why the Anglo concertina is traditional and the English concertina, invented by the same chap ... well isnt.

As for the travelling community, we have an excellent Tinker piper at our session in sunny Shropshire about once a year. THere is a cheer when he walks in and he is always made very welcome for his musicianship. What he does in his spare time doesnt concern us. We wouldnt ask anyway as he was a bare knuckle fighter in his younger days. If we wernt playing the music right he wouldnt bother to come along.

The arguement at the session last week was whether we should add in fusion music ie afro celt etc. I enjoy the newer sounds very much, but dont want them at a traditional session.Its good to play the traditional tunes, or those written in the traditional style.

ah thats better.... off to the weekly session to see if the new muso is still talking to me... which part of "its an Irish music session" didnt she understand!!!


04 Oct 07 - 01:51 PM (#2163791)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Fliss

PS Ive got a Norman Irish surname too by marriage... one that usually describes an Eejit:) as Im English should I really be playing Irish music at all. Please say I can or I will sit in a corner at the session and howl! I think there are probably those at the session that think I do anyway.

Fliss Burke


04 Oct 07 - 02:16 PM (#2163820)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Geordie-Peorgie

Aah thought Thomas Moore was from North Yorkshire!!

Quite a large & well known family if memory serves

Ye must've heard of them.

Same With Jimmy Cliff's family in Dover


04 Oct 07 - 02:21 PM (#2163824)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST,Mr. Norrell

:If you go back far enough in history, there are no authentic instruments, eh?:

banging two rocks or a couple of sticks together, or a combination, was pretty universal I think *LOL


04 Oct 07 - 02:26 PM (#2163828)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Declan

Yes but were they authentic Folk Rocks?


04 Oct 07 - 02:27 PM (#2163832)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: The Sandman

banging two heads together,if herges critic had two heads,it would be appropriate.


04 Oct 07 - 02:56 PM (#2163852)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Susan B

I had this in reverse today - was busking and happened to be playing La Bastrange. Woman came up and said how happy she was to hear "the old Irish tunes" being played. I decided that I would smile sweetly and tell her that it wasn't Irish, but I could play something Irish for her if she liked. She got very affronted and seemed to think that all music was of Irish origin. It takes all sorts!

Off to a session now!

Susan B


04 Oct 07 - 03:10 PM (#2163859)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST,Mr.Norrell

:Yes but were they authentic Folk Rocks?:

authenticated by the EFDSS ;-)


04 Oct 07 - 03:15 PM (#2163863)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Becca72

"banging two rocks or a couple of sticks together, or a combination, was pretty universal I think *LOL"


Funny, that's how Kendall describes the music I listen to... :-)


04 Oct 07 - 04:09 PM (#2163890)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST,Mr. Norrell

ahhh...rock music in the purest sense eh? Trad. Arr.*LOL*


04 Oct 07 - 05:32 PM (#2163945)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST,Jonathan Strange

Absolute magic I'd say


04 Oct 07 - 06:12 PM (#2163982)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Mr. Norrell

Exactly, Mr. Strange, exactly!


04 Oct 07 - 06:36 PM (#2164008)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Richard Bridge

Should we inhume those who disagree?


04 Oct 07 - 07:44 PM (#2164052)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Bugsy

I wouldn't credit this email with the title "Interesting". IMO it's just pontificating, self righteous bullshit written by a narrow minded mean spirited Pillock.

I wouldn't give dross like this a second thought.

Keep up the good work and remember, there's probably more "Irishness" in the energy of ONE of your tunes than in the whole repertoire a TWAT like that.

Cheers


Bugsy


04 Oct 07 - 07:45 PM (#2164053)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Herge

As promised the articulate reply - by the way - whats a buffer? Thanks Big Mick for the compliment.



Where you went wrong is trying to imitate the old sound invented by the Tinkers when all you are are a bunch of Anglo, Buffer bastards!

Garrett

Haste to the Wedding wrote:
Hi
Thanks for your comments - I would really like to hear you play some of your music to see were we have been going wrong.

Haste to the Wedding


04 Oct 07 - 09:44 PM (#2164109)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Leadfingers

Having met Herge and others of H T T W , I just hope that they can appear at the Portaferry gather in February ! ALL good lads , and ALL good musicians !


05 Oct 07 - 03:23 AM (#2164204)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST,Jonathan Strange

Long live Sweeney's Men, Mr. Norrell


05 Oct 07 - 03:37 AM (#2164211)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Jonathan Strange

De Dannan with johnnie moynihan on bouzouki


05 Oct 07 - 11:18 AM (#2164485)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST,Mr. Norrell

: a bunch of Anglo, Buffer bastards!:

Ahhhhh...some Americans have such a way with words... *LOL*


05 Oct 07 - 02:02 PM (#2164583)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Declan

Great clip of De Dannan. All skinny young fellas - no Fir Bolg in sight.

You should see some of them now.


06 Oct 07 - 03:48 AM (#2164949)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll

I get the impression that the original e-mail was a wind-up aimed at taking a pop at Travellers, and from the quality of some of the responses, he or she was not disappointed.
Thirty years of working with Travellers has proved to me that the Travelling community, while having its share of no-brainers and dead-beats, is no different than any other group or community. During the time we worked with them we experienced generosity, friendship and hospitality (and far more tolerance than I would be prepared to offer anybody who treated me like scum). We were able to record hundreds of songs and stories from them, and thinking back, of the hundreds of sites we visited, there wasn't one we would feel more uncomfortable visiting, than, say, walking up Wandsworth High Street at 12 Oclock at night. If it wasn't for The Stewarts, Jeannie Robertson, John Reilly, Margaret Barry (tinkers all), our music would be very much impoverished.
Shite stories like 'stealing railings', are no different as far as I'm concerned than those about black-men with big willies, and belong in history's dustbin along with lynchings and Belsen. The crap story of Johnny Doran sending round the lads because somebody criticised his music, was exactly that - crap; try telling it around here in West Clare where he is revered as the greatest contributor to Irish music, over half a century after his death.
In the early sixties a Birmingham JP proposed (on the radio) that all travellers who wouldn't conform should be exterminated - perhaps some of you should get up a petition.
Jim Carroll


06 Oct 07 - 07:24 AM (#2165018)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Herge

It may well have been a wind up - (but no one has owned up yet!) if so well done


06 Oct 07 - 12:23 PM (#2165192)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: open mike

the celtic traditions were alive and well in france, spain and portugal.
There is a small country near the Basque region Asturia, where the music and culture was insulated and isolated by being surrounded by mountains.
They have Celtic ancestors there.
see: http://www.llandecubel.com/
and: http://www.asturias.es/
and: http://www.asturias.es/portal/site/Asturias


06 Oct 07 - 02:57 PM (#2165298)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Bainbo

Ah, Asturias. Completely off-topic, but there are a load of bagpipers from there worth checking out, notable among them Xose Manuel Budino, and Hevia.

Open mike, it is in fact another region of Spain, rather than a country. But Spanish regions are so different from each other that they could almost be separate countries! Asturias is a partucularly beatiful, remote and mountainous one, known for its rough cider and hearty bean stews.


06 Oct 07 - 04:22 PM (#2165360)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: The Sandman

Jim,the problem is that there probably are black men with big willies,and there probably are tinkers that steal railings,but they are undoubtedly a very small minority.
here is astory.
Just before Easter,I was out gathering some wood for firing[in a remote area],two tinkers who were out leafletting for tarmacadam work,stopped me and said there is an old fellow down the road in a caravan, and we think he needs a doctor.
so I went to talk to this guy[who was adamant that he was ok,and didnt need help],he clearly wasnt,as he didnt have the strength to go outside to urinate,but had been urinating in a bottle,so despite his protestations I phoned the district nurse[turns out we saved his life,he is still in hospital now,he had some kind of stroke].
Now those two tinkers,Could have mugged that old guy ,BUT they didnt,they showed more concern,than his settled neighbours,who hadnt even noticed,he was ill.Dick Miles.


07 Oct 07 - 07:05 AM (#2165737)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST

"Jim,the problem is that there probably are black men with big willies,and there probably are tinkers that steal railings,but they are undoubtedly a very small minority."
Cap'n,
Of course you are right.
The problem with threads like this is people use them to air all their racist views - ie -judge all travellers by the behaviour of a few.
Tomorrow I will pick up my newspaper and read about the behaviour of thugs in Limerick (aka Stab City); it is almost certain there will be reports of thuggery and violence throughout the week from that City. Does that mean everybody in Limerick is a thug?
Jim Carroll

Jim, I love your posts, but you MUST remember to put your name in the appropriate box or you risk having them deleted. You are a great Mudcatter and contribute valuable information. Please help us out here so you don't get your posts deleted.


07 Oct 07 - 12:27 PM (#2165872)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll

Charlie;
Sorry-sorry-sorry.
I will sort out the problem I'm having of my posting as a member.
Jim Carroll
The greatest advantage of Alzheimer's is that you meet new people every day.

Not sure who Charley is, but thanks.


08 Oct 07 - 05:36 PM (#2166799)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Herga Kitty

I get the impression that Irish tradition is quite porous. Many traditional Irish songs have migrated from being songs sung in Ireland? eg Dirty old town....greenfields of France....

Kitty


08 Oct 07 - 07:11 PM (#2166877)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: GUEST,Val

"I know what it is supposed to sound like since I have musicians in my family who would not degrade themselves to play for anyone other then their own kin!"

Ah, that explains it! Inbreeding! From the 'Murican side, from that we get stories like wuz told in the movie "Deliverance".


08 Oct 07 - 07:48 PM (#2166899)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Jeri

Val, there were no brother fuckers or sister fuckers or even mother or father fuckers in Deliverence. There might have been first cousin fuckers, but that was sort of implied, not stated directly. There was buggery, but I'm pretty sure they got that habit from ancestors that came from... well, let's not make this worse. Just saying that buggery is a lot more popular in some places than others.

Speaking of which and moving past that lovely bit of opinion/trolling from Val, isn't 'Haste to the Wedding' an English tune?


08 Oct 07 - 08:02 PM (#2166914)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Declan

One thing the original e-Mailer got right is that the tune you get on the link that says listen to Haste to the wedding - or something like that is not in fact the tune Haste to the Wedding although it it a jig played by the band by that name. Even eejits get things right occasionally.

I'm intrigued as to whether the english tune called HTTW is the same as the one popular in Ireland, and if so where did the tune originate.

For those of you who can remember back that far, the jig popular in Ireland by that name was the theme tune for the TV series "The Irish RM"


09 Oct 07 - 06:06 AM (#2167125)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: manitas_at_work

It is, Declan.


09 Oct 07 - 06:18 AM (#2167128)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: TheSnail

Looking at John Chamber's ABC Tune Finder, there are (at least) two tunes of that name. One is the one on Herge's website. The other is also caled Rory O'More.


09 Oct 07 - 05:39 PM (#2167548)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Big Mick

A busted clock is right twice a day.


09 Oct 07 - 07:44 PM (#2167642)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Tootler

The tune on HTTW's website is the one I know as "Haste to the Wedding" and I have seen it in several publications under that name.

The fiddlers companion has this to say about it:

The tune 'Come, Haste to the Wedding,' of Gaelic origin, was introduced in the pantomime, The Elopement, staged in London in 1767. This version is known as the Manx tune and was printed by the Percy Society in 1846. It is the basis of the Manx ballad, 'The Capture of Carrickfergusby,' written by Thurot in 1760" (Linscott, 1939). Samuel Bayard (1944, 1981) comments on the popularity of the air over the past two centuries as well as the tenacity of the main title to stick with the tune. When Chappell printed his well-known set in National English Airs (1840, I, No. 163; notes, II, 129; reprinted in JEFDSS, III, 210.), he traced the tune to the year 1767, when it was used in pantomime, to a song beginning 'Come, haste to the wedding, ye friends and ye neighbors!' This version of the air, continues Bayard, is still the earliest known, and it may be that the popularity of the song occasioned the fixed quality of the title. In his 1944 work Bayard posses the question as to whether the words were included in the original pantomime as a result of its associations, or whether the later uses of the tune secured it...

It also gives abc's of three variants.

X:1
T:Haste to the Wedding
M:6/8
L:1/8
R:Jig
B:Sharp – Morris Dance Tunes
Z:AK/Fiddler's Companion
K:D
DFA A2f|ede fdB|ABA AGF|GFG E2F|DFA A2f|ede fdB|AFA faf|ded d3:|
|:afa agf|gfg bag|fga agf|gfg efg|a3 f3|ede fdB|AFA faf|ded d3:|

X:2
T:Haste to the Wedding
M:6/8
L:1/8
K:D
DFA A2f|ede fdB|ABA AGF|GFG E2F|DFA A2f|ede fdB|AFA faf|ded d3:|
|:afa agf|gfg bag|fga agf|gfg efg|a3 f3|ede fdB|AFA faf|ded d3:|

X:3
T:Haste to the Wedding
M:6/8
L:1/8
R:Jig
B:Stewart-Robertson – The Athole Collection (1884)
Z:AK/Fiddler's Companion
K:D
B|AFA Aaf|ede fdB|AFA AdF|EFE E2A|AFA Aaf|ede fdB|AFA faf|ddd d2:|
|:f/g/|faf faf|bgb bgb|afa agf|efe e2f/g/|a3 f3|ede fdB|AFA faf|ded d2:|


09 Oct 07 - 08:04 PM (#2167653)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Declan

The link on the site which says listen to our Cd brings you to the first track – a set of tunes called Jimmy Ward Set made up of jigs called Lake Shore Jimmy Ward's and Hartes.

None of these is Haste to the Wedding.

The other link on the home page which reads
Haste to the Wedding is the name of a popular jig - have a listen
brings you to exactly the same place.


09 Oct 07 - 08:30 PM (#2167669)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Malcolm Douglas

Note that the first part of the 'Fiddler's Companion' quote is paraphrased from Linscott, Folk Songs of Old New England (1939):

"The tune 'Come, Haste to the Wedding,' of Gaelic origin, was introduced in the pantomime, The Elopement, staged in London in 1767. This version is known as the Manx tune and was printed by the Percy Society in 1846. It is the basis of the Manx ballad, 'The Capture of Carrickfergusby,' written by Thurot in 1760."

For corrections to that statement, inserted in a later edition of Linscott, and further important commentary from Bruce Olson and John Moulden, see thread  LYR REQ: Carrick Fergus  (1998-2000).


09 Oct 07 - 08:32 PM (#2167671)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Leadfingers

100


10 Oct 07 - 05:26 PM (#2168348)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Tootler

To Declan:

Click on the link on the home page which takes you to the "Our CD" page as you said, then scroll down to the bottom of the page to the track list and you will find a link to an mp3 of Haste to the Wedding on Track 9

To Malcolm Douglas:

I had a look at the thread you posted a link to and while there was plenty discussion on the origins of the ballad forming the subject of the thread, the only mentions of Haste to the Wedding seemed to be as a suggested tune for the ballad. There was nothing else I could see in the thread that in any way added to or contradicted what was in the Fiddlers companion regarding HTTW. If you do have better evidence of the origins of the tune, I for one, would be very interested.


10 Oct 07 - 08:04 PM (#2168439)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Declan

Tootler,

Thanks. I eventually found the link and it is Haste to the Wedding as I know it.

The link on the top page which says listen here should point directly to this track.


11 Oct 07 - 12:46 PM (#2168914)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Herge

Hi
Yes the link from the home page went to the 'our CD page' - it now goes to the page but at the sample for HTTW track

Thanks for this

Herge


11 Oct 07 - 01:42 PM (#2168960)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: The Sandman

I have recollections,that the tune fits a dance by that name,the tune is very distinctive ,and fits the clapping of the dance perfectly.Dick Miles


12 Oct 07 - 03:12 AM (#2169383)
Subject: RE: Interesting e-mail
From: Declan

Dick,

Haste to the wedding is the first of the "three tunes" which fit to a dance of the same name. The clapping is done to the third tune.