|
10 Oct 07 - 02:55 PM (#2168244) Subject: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Alice Hate to post another on this topic of school shooting. At this point, the news seems to say only the shooter may be dead. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 03:08 PM (#2168255) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: John Hardly It is one of the biggest conundrums that our media faces. Every time they cover these shootings in the national press, they incite another several of them. And yet, they cannot not cover them as stories. They are sensational. And they (the press) are not responsible. The shooter is clearly the guilty one. ...except that they wouldn't happen if not for national media coverage. What would you guys do? |
|
10 Oct 07 - 03:09 PM (#2168256) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Emma B http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7038532.stm latest on the BBC web page - injuries reported; "shooter" held! |
|
10 Oct 07 - 03:15 PM (#2168262) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Alice Yes, John, his trench coat is a reminder of the Columbine shooters. Confusion on the facts of who is hurt and whether he is still alive. There are other school shootings each year that national news does not cover. Copy cat behavior is typical of teens. I don't think it should be sensationalized the way the big networks carry on with it. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 03:39 PM (#2168273) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Rapparee The AP is saying that the shooter shot himself. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 03:56 PM (#2168280) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: catspaw49 I don't know what happened with this one but as it was happening Karen and I were actively involved in a meeting trying to prevent another. How so you ask? Without going into diagnostic details, our own 14 year old son is struggling through life right now. About 5 months ago his behavior and drawings reached a real low, extremely frightening with talk of suicide, suicide pacts, killing his gf's mother. Among the things causing this was a borderline personality disorder, reactive attachment problems, and depression, all of which were helped by Fetal Alcohol/Drug Syndrome. Thanks so much there bio-mom. We began counselling but things slid further downhill when he began cutting himself to ease the depression. He wrote and drew more about suicide, homicide......geeziz, I can't begin to write all of this down for you here but trust me, it was very frightening (talk of his "armored angel" [that's a gun] and how it would ease the pain; a drawing of three death figures on crosses and written below, "I won't shed a tear as my family dies. Hang them on a cross of nails). It was EXACTLY what you read of things left when they read the writings of the Columbine shooters, Pearl, Virginia Tech, and all the others. We worked harder to get him help to little avail. He was in a crisis ward at Ohio State twice and at another program once. Altogether for about three weeks on three occasions. He went into therapeutic foster care and intense counselling, came home for two weeks and cut himself up after a minor setback......including cuts to the neck. We are finally into something which I truly believe may make a difference over time.....we can but hope. Today he told me "You aren't even my Dad anymore." Hard to hear.............But if this works out even halfway he will be far better off in life and so will those around him. But let me tell you some of what it took to get here. We tried to access the mental health system back in April as this became worse. Everybody wanted to help but couldn't. When we dismantled the Mental Health System in this country we threw out the baby with the bath. Nobody wanted to see the warehousing but the system needed repair, not destruction. After awhile I began to understand why Columbine and Virginia Tech happened. As parents, Karen and I found ourselves virtually helpless. A consultant on this asked me if we had great insurance. I said yes (which it is) but there were some limits of course. He asked if we were wealthy and I of course said no. He told me, "Sorry, but I can't help you." We had any number of people in the mental health field and insurance folks plus friends with anecdotal stories who said the only thing we could probably end up doing was turning over custody to the state. After months of frustration and hard work we may have finally come to something that will work and can be paid for through the state, county, schools, our insurance, and our bank account---it may take a village to SAVE a child as well.......I hope it works or you may see me on TV, the parent of one of those kids who "should have seen it coming and gotten the boy some help."Got any idea how lousy you feel as a parent when you can't give your kid what he desparately needs? yeah............... I feel for the parents and the kids of those injured and killed but I can far too easily identify with the kids doing the shooting and their parents. Been there.....don't want to do that. Put my son Michael in your thoughts......and one thing you can do? A portion of Michael's problems come from Fetal Alcohol/Fetal Drug problems. Confront every pregnant person you know or meet and tell them, "Not one drop, not a toke, not a snort, not a shot." Pat Patterson --- Not exactly feelin' like Spaw at the moment. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 04:05 PM (#2168285) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: John Hardly Trite, empty words is all I'd have, so I'll save 'em out of respect. Sorry catspaw. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 04:08 PM (#2168288) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: McGrath of Harlow And yet, they cannot not cover them as stories. They are sensational. They could. Terrible stories, but essentially local terrible stories, which would be better treated as local stories, as at one time would have been the case. The role for the media in this kind of thing should be getting into the issues behind the sensational stories, the kind of thing Pat was just talking about so powerfully. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 04:09 PM (#2168289) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Wesley S Best of luck Pat. Our thoughts are with you. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 04:10 PM (#2168290) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: katlaughing {{{{{{PAT & KAREN}}}}}}} Glad you told more of it, here, darlin'. Ya know I'll answer, but those calls from late night emergency runs are a tad scary.:-) luvyakat |
|
10 Oct 07 - 04:17 PM (#2168295) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Rapparee Anything I can do help, Pat? I've still got some friends back in Ohio. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 04:23 PM (#2168297) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Rapparee Has anyone here besides myself heard of the Cassie Jo Stoddard killing a year ago? Where she was stabbed multiple times by two of her classmates? No? I didn't think so. Pocatello isn't a big-time, or near a big-time, media outlet. The media can control itself if it wishes to do so. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 04:31 PM (#2168308) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Amos Hugs to you, and Karen, and the lad, Pat. Tell him there's a mess o' folks out here hoping he finds his way to life. A |
|
10 Oct 07 - 04:35 PM (#2168311) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Peace I have nowt to post here because it's all been said before, no offense to anyone. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 04:36 PM (#2168312) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: SINSULL I saw the title and my heart sank. "Please, not Michael" is what went through my head. My own son is a danger to himself and others but no one would listen to an obviously over-protective drama queen mother. I had ax handles and baseball bats hidden all around my house and knives under my mattress and pillows. The system sucks. I can almost guarantee that this boy could have been helped or at least prevented from suicide/murder if anyone could or would have taken the time to listen to him. I can almost guarantee that he or someone who cares about him tried to get help and was stone walled by the results of Reagan's cutbacks. There is simply not enough affordable services to handle these children in a timely manner. Preventing the problem before it happens? Spaw is right. If you are pregnant, NO alcohol; NO drugs. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 04:41 PM (#2168316) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: katlaughing Sins, that's what ran through my mind when I saw the title, too. Fortunately, it sounds as though they may have something that will work, this time, for Michael. One wonders about the 20 year old sheriff's deputy in Wisconsin who just killed himself and five others. Barely out of his teens, sworn to uphold the law, and apparently couldn't handle a break-up with his girlfriend. What kind of help might have prevented that "solution" by him? |
|
10 Oct 07 - 04:47 PM (#2168320) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: John Hardly SINSULL, The boy was fourteen. Reagan hasn't been president in over 19 years. And the undoing of the mental health care "system" (to which catspaw referred) was done by well-meaning Democrats. Look it up. Not every tragedy is a Republican president's fault, hard a pill as that may be to swallow. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 04:53 PM (#2168323) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: gnu Thoughts and prayers to (all of) you guys. And, thanks for the courage to post and tell us and the world... it helps us all understand, and, it helps us all as a community. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 04:56 PM (#2168326) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "except that they wouldn't happen if not for national media coverage" Sorry, but that is not the answer. I'm not trying to defend the media - but if you really think that a television story is going to inspire someone to pick up a gun and shoot someone, then you are missing the problem. As Spaw and others have pointed out, the issue comes down to health care. Sorry John, but the dismantling did start with Reagan and it has continued through every administration since then. Unless you have the resources, you do not have access to the help you need. Instead of blaming the media for increases in violence, maybe it is time we wake up and look at how we care for people in this country. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 04:59 PM (#2168327) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: John Hardly It wasn't about cut resources. It was an issue about unfairly institutionalizing the mentally ill. And it was a Democrat idea to dismantle it. And nothing has come into the void to replace it. And its results were then cynically used by the Democrats to make Reagan seem worse by blaming the homelssness that they caused onto him. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 05:05 PM (#2168335) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Emma B I don't want to get into any discussion about American politics (I'm not qualified enough) but there is something about "copy cat" behaviour that cannot be denied. I'm with Peace on this. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 05:15 PM (#2168340) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Yes, the issue was about unfairly institutionalizing the mentally ill and it took place during the Carter administration. Jimmy Carter signed a Mental Health act into law in 1980 which would have continued federal funding. Ronald Reagan, in his preoccupation with reducing federal spending, rescinded the law which put the burden back on individual states - without the resources to make it work. So yes, Reagan was blamed for the homless issue and the inadequate mental health care that continues to exist in this country. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 05:17 PM (#2168343) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Sure there is "something" about copycat behavior - but the people who are doing the copying are suffering from lack of help. To say that these events would not happen if the media did not cover it simply ignores the reasons behind it. If you or I watch a story, we are not going to find the motivation to copy it. Why do these individuals do so? It is more than simply watching something on TV. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 05:38 PM (#2168365) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: John Hardly I really don't think it would be occurring with the frequency that it does without the coverage. Without the warped incentive to become famous, the mental illness would manifest itself in a different way. Interesting thing though, we can't know. All we have to go on is the testimony of kids who have tried and failed, or tried and then not killed themselves. They all have WAY more than a passing awareness of their "heroes" who have gone on before them. The adolescent mind -- even at its best -- has a very hard time discerning the difference between famous and infamous. And we keep making the offenders -- the shooters -- into larger-than-life people all the while blaming their acts on our favorite political scapegoat. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 05:50 PM (#2168368) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Bill D I am just numb with it all. I chatted with Pat (spaw)in person, about Michael just last week. It was so frustrating not to have anything helpful to say....and Pat & Karen are aware and working to keep something bad from happening, as best they can. Think of all the other troubled kids who are largely ignored UNTIL they explode. I am hearing now that this boy, as with many others, made threats and gave indications to other students thay he WOULD do something serious. If we can't solve their problems, we could at LEAST encourage all students to report threats they hear from other students!!! And before you tell me that 'snitching' will just cause dissention and that 'most' threats are just idle noise, ask yourself whether it's worth it to head off just one incident like this. There's so much to say about why this is happening more these days, and why we need security guards in high schools, but for now let's just focus on the kids we know, and trying to prevent problems before they get this far. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 08:02 PM (#2168434) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: SINSULL Reagan cut back federal funding for the mentally ill and thousands of homeless and mentally ill people ended up lost in the system and on the streets. It began then. My statement was not meant as an attack on Republicans but certainly a stab at the "trickle down" system that never did. The boy's age has nothing to do with the fact that there are no places for the mentally ill. The unique problem with the mentally ill is that almost invariably they claim to be healthy. If my leg is broken I go to a doctor. If my brain is malfunctioning, I blame menopause, diet, personal weakness but deny there is a problem - the voice of experience here. Health Insurance companies limit benefits for mental illness in ways they could never limit medical coverage. Autism is a huge and growing problem. Even if a cause is identified, there are thousands of children who will need extraordinary care once their parents die. But places for drug addicts, the mentally ill, the seriously retarded, etc. simply do not exist UNLESS you have money. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 09:14 PM (#2168478) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Sorcha Yes, the media coverage plays a part....one person does it, and other say, well, Damn, he had the balls to do it, so can I! And Off we go.... Pat,Karen, there is nothing I can say that will ease your way, but know that we are thinking of you, and raised an 'angry' son too. No, it was NOT fetal anything abuse....he went to school on his First Day as a normal(I thought)by and came home ANGRY. He had been fine at home (only child at that time, etc...) He is STILL an angry person, but after years and years he is beginning to learn to control it because he has a son of his own now...and he doesn't want Owen to bear the brunt of his anger. Took 3 years, but he was finally diagnosed as ADHD (ADD at the time). I'm still not sure that is what it is, or that the diagnosis helped at all. Six months in the county jail seemed to tho. He NEVER wants to go back there....and there is a lot I just don't have time to type. He is alive, never killed anyone, and doing well at age 28 so there is HOPE. PS-a lot of the current popular song lyrics don't help much either, IMO. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 09:27 PM (#2168484) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Rapparee I sound like an old fogey, but this didn't happen back in the day. Why? There was just as much anger and frustration, just as much depression. Yet I don't remember anyone committing suicide or shooting up a school (and yes, we often had at least a .22). Part of it is the media, part of it song "lyrics," part of it the general glorification of violence, part of it.... A year ago we found a spiked club outside the Library; a week later a shotgun shell rigged to go off if thrown hard enough. One of the high schools is a block away and the police (we don't fool around with this stuff!) felt that it was related to the high school. There are no metal detectors in the schools here, although there are special duty police officers. I don't have an answer, but I do know one must be found -- and soon. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 10:01 PM (#2168489) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Peace I agree with you wholeheartedly, Rapaire. No one is going to convince me that the various media have not played a big role in it. Songs by their nature are a multi-media construct to 'feed' a multi-sensory receptor. Helping that is a decline [imo] in the 'old' nature of family relationships and even in the concept of what family IS. The pursuit of comfort and accessories to aid in its procurement have divided our societies because it has happened at the expense of family. The days when a disappointed look on an elder's face meant more and did more than the decisions of our courts seem to be done with, and that disturbs me very much. I don't know what it is that constitutes a healthy society, but I do know that this ain't it. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 10:19 PM (#2168495) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Bill D I have to agree with Peace & Rapaire. Seeing & listening to so much gratuitous violence desensitizes kids to it. They develop an unstated, but pervasive idea that violence IS a valid response to frustration or disappointment...etc. No...I know you can't 'prove' causality in individual cases, but statistics make it clear....(we couldn't 'prove' cigarettes were dangerous for many years, so the tobacco companies just denied it...and let's face it, violent TV shows and music SELL, so the producers deny. There's no easy way to prove the point, except with a couple of generations of LESS violent entertainment and news.....anyone wanna bet about the chance of that? |
|
10 Oct 07 - 10:21 PM (#2168496) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Rapparee My neighbor is an architect. He has a fifth-wheel trailer, TWO pickup trucks which can pull it, a car for his wife, and a Porsche in the garage. He also has a fast-looking boat on a trailer, two dirt bikes, two jet skis, two ATVs, and a golf cart (that I know of). He has two of these things so he can share them with his son. He also has a wife and a daughter. Today, I learned that he is facing foreclosure on his house. This hits me very hard because I know the pure hell my mother went through to keep us living in the house my father built (he died when I, the oldest, was 5). Things do not a family make, nor do they necessarily create happiness or mental or physical health. I've seen children enjoy a cardboard box more than an expensive radio-controlled car. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 10:43 PM (#2168503) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Peace I apologize for the length of the cut and paste. However, it's worth it even if only to understand that it is pandemic and NOT singularly attached to the USA. "The Erfurt massacre is the worst school shooting in Europe since a gunman killed 16 children and their teacher in Scotland in 1996. Detailed below are some of the worst incidents of the past decade. Scotland, March 1996: Gun enthusiast Thomas Hamilton shoots 16 children and their teacher dead at their primary school in Dunblane, Scotland before killing himself. Yemen, March 1997: A man with an assault rifle attacked hundreds of pupils at two schools in Sanaa, Yemen, killing six children and two others. He was sentenced to death the next day. United States, October 1997: A 16-year-old boy fatally stabbed his mother before shooting dead two students, including his former girlfriend, at Pearl High School in Pearl, Mississippi. United States, December 1997: A 14-year old boy killed three students attending a prayer meeting at Heath High School in West Paducah, Kentucky. United States, March 1998: Two boys aged 13 and 11 killed four pupils and a teacher after setting off fire alarms at Westside Middle School in Jonesboro, Arkansas. United States, April 1999: Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris killed 12 of their classmates and a teacher at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado, before killing themselves. Germany, November 1999: A 15-year-old student in Meissen, eastern Germany, stabbed his teacher to death after taking bets from classmates he would dare commit the crime. He was later jailed for seven years. Germany, March 2000: A 16-year-old pupil at a private boarding school in the Bavarian town of Branneburg, shot a 57-year-old teacher, who later died from injuries. The teenager - who also shot himself - was facing expulsion from school after failing a cannabis test. Germany, February 2002: A former pupil killed his headmaster and set off pipe bombs in the technical school he had recently been expelled from in Freising near Munich. The man also shot dead his boss and a foreman at the company he worked for before turning the gun on himself. Another teacher was shot in the face, but survived. Germany, April 2002: Seventeen people killed after a gunman - a former pupil - opens fire in a school in Erfurt, eastern Germany. He then turned the gun on himself." There are some from Canada that were not included in that BBC article. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 10:46 PM (#2168506) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Respectfully, I have to disagree with Peace, Rapaire and others who feel the media are to blame. School shootings are not an everyday occurance. I just read a report on the MSNBC website that said shool violence and attacks have dropped by half in the past decade. (Perhaps crimes are not being reported?) Charles Whitman was not reacting to the media when he climbed the tower in Texas in 1966. The song "I Don't Like Mondays" was based on a school shooting in 1979. There have been school shootings over the decades, but we did not have 24 hour newschannels to report them. I think issues of alienation and persecution are more likely to cause these shootings rather than a video. Most of these people are described as having suffered from ridicule - such as last weekends story about the 20 year old police officer opening fire at a party. It's easy to blame the messenger, but harder to fix the real problems. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 10:53 PM (#2168510) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Peace School Shootings Interesting site. www2.indystar.com/library/factfiles/crime/school_violence/school_shootings.html |
|
10 Oct 07 - 10:58 PM (#2168513) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Rapparee No, Ron. I do NOT blame the media alone. I think that there is no one single cause -- if there were it would be easily fixed. This is a problem that runs deep and wide, and includes our leaders' prediliction for violence as a solution, the use of children as weapons of war and crime, adult greed, Gene Autry shooting the gun out of the bad guy's hand, John Wayne in "The Green Berets," spousal abuse, child abuse, feelings of helplessness and despair...and perhaps something, I don't know what, wired into our brains. This is a perfect example of what I've learned over the years: there is rarely or never one cause or one simple cure, no matter how much we'd like there to be. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 11:07 PM (#2168516) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Riginslinger It seems like the authorities would begin to look at what all of the perpetrators had in common. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 11:10 PM (#2168518) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Rapparee To do that you need living perpetrators. |
|
10 Oct 07 - 11:13 PM (#2168521) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: TRUBRIT Spaw - don't know you but my heart aches for you. As the parent of a child who used to cut herself a lot -- it is downright horrendous to be part of. I knew my child would never be violent to anyone but herself--not sure how one would cope with the horror of knowing the hurt could be directed towards anyone else as well. I just got back from the UK from a week's vacation -- while there, the topic turned - as it always does - to health care. From every person I heard how the NHS is breaking down and it might as well be abandoned now. At one point I lost my temper and burst out -- TRY LIVING IN A COUNTRY THAT DOESN'T HAVE IT. How can we turn our backs on the mentally ill? How CAN we.....! If nothing else the mentally ill can turn around and hurt those of us who are (nominally) not mentally ill............... |
|
11 Oct 07 - 01:50 AM (#2168574) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Big Al Whittle Our American friends seem to be getting into a dogfight over who wrecked their health system. Democrat or Republican - couldn't you get some cross party agreement that the present situation is quite intolerable and you NEED some form of socialised medicine. My wife got ill (disabled in fact) with rheumatoid arthritis when she was just 26 years old and it was the end of both our working careers. the marriage vows say 'in sickness and in health' and when you look around theres never anyone else to help. I suspect its the same with bringing up kids. Denise and I have lived through some pretty tough times financially, but the situation would have killed us both if we had been worried about health insurance, and the medical profession had some sort carte blanche to ignore us. One things sure - you needed a health service a damn sight more than you needed to invade Iraq. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 08:39 AM (#2168733) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Riginslinger "One things sure - you needed a health service a damn sight more than you needed to invade Iraq..." You got that right. "To do that you need living perpetrators." Not necessarily, and besides, there are some living perpetrators. I suspect there are findings that are too politically incorrect for them to disclose. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 08:41 AM (#2168736) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Rapparee I think the answer to "Who caused the health care problem in the US?" is "We all did. Democrats and Republicans, you and me." And it's going to take everyone working together to solve the damned thing. Same thing is true of these shootings -- and it's not just in the US. Let's stop pointing fingers and flinging blame and start working on the answers. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 08:59 AM (#2168752) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Emma B The boy was described by other students as a loner and devil worshipper who had made jokes about shooting other students in front of teachers. "I didn't think he meant it," another unidentified student told news station WKYC. "I thought he just said it because he wanted to be popular.".........from a news report WHAT??? "popular"?? Something is sadly wrong here....... and not just in the US either. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 09:06 AM (#2168757) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: John Hardly We learned something on the mudcat -- almost from its beginning. It is really easy to "make a splash" here. All you have to do is be a VERY obnoxious troll and the whole mudcat is your oyster. Sure, it's negative attention -- but for some reason that few seem to understand, that doesn't matter. And so we have our Martin Gibsons and our (who's the guy who kept complaining about Joe Offer's censorship of his posts? -- he had hundreds of complaint threads but his name escapes me right now). We can't even BEG regulars to not respond. Finally, when self-restraint didn't work, much against the principles of many here, the move was made to actually cut these people's posting rights off. We even modified the guest posting policy. Like it or not, attention is attention, and there are MANY in this overcrowded world -- people with folks living lives so devoid of meaning, so devoid of value, that they WILL resort to anything that gives them a hope that their existence matters. And the national media has PROVEN to them that this is one way to matter in the world. On the mudcat it is also possible to "make a splash" with excellence -- helpful lyric/chord posting, creative and entertaining stories, friendly banter. But that's the hard way and not nearly as sure-fire. In fact, you can do all that (good stuff) and yet, if you have a political point of view contrary to the majority, you are still more likely to have even your good stuff ignored (though somehow, ironically, the collective cannot bring itself to ignore a troll). The world is just like that. There are many famous who have become that way by virtue of their brilliant, helpful offerings. But it's harder. And the odds are not in favor of even striving for excellence bringing one the positive attention they crave. The need for attention is the problem. The media has proven to the sick that it doesn't matter if you do good (hard to accomplish) or bad (easy to accomplish) -- it will elevate you above the anonymous. And, yes, those shooters who have survived these shootings HAVE been very aware of their heroes who have gone before them. We don't have to guess. We know this from interviews with them. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 09:22 AM (#2168768) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Emma B An excellent analogy and analysis John. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 10:10 AM (#2168798) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Rumncoke The UK health service might be struggling in some things - but you can be sure that if you are in a RTA, or you have a sudden fainting fit, someone will diall 999 (note the number) and there will be an ambulance sent with people who can help there and then, and you will most likely be taken to hospital and whatever can be done will be done - from giving you a cup of tea and a biscuit whilst someone is found to take you home to gallons of blood transfusions and hours in the operating theatre, with no thought of who is paying. My children were checked regularly throughout their first years of life, they were give innoculations agaist common diseases, free dental care, free eye tests - one had a minor operation on his hand to remove a 'trigger' the other had a slight twist in a foot and had it corrected. There was no charge for the treatment. We can sometimes be bewildered by how the US organises the health care of its citisens and wonder why the population does not demand that the system is changed so that those who are too poor or too ill to buy the care they need are not a threat to the ordinary man in the street. Health care should not be a matter for the individual, because it affects everyone. A couple of simplistic illustrations; The man who should be taking medication for his heart condition but loses his job and can no longer have health insurance could be driving his car, fall unconscious and wipe out - anyone's family. There could be someone at the supermarket checkout feeling ill, but has got to work, they can't afford to go to the doctor, you can't protect your child, your partner or yourself from being infected too. You can only obtain the help for your family once the worst has already happened. Personally I prefer to fund free health care for everyone on the basis that treatment for anyone who needs it could avert huge problems for me. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 10:39 AM (#2168820) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Riginslinger "And, yes, those shooters who have survived these shootings HAVE been very aware of their heroes who have gone before them. We don't have to guess. We know this from interviews with them." I'm not sure knowing their heroes helps us know what motivates them. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 10:42 AM (#2168823) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Peace We need to understand their nightmares. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 10:52 AM (#2168829) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Peace Does anyone recall the experiments and observations that were done and made with rats? How crowding caused behaviors that were antisocial and dangerous within the community? |
|
11 Oct 07 - 11:05 AM (#2168836) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: John Hardly I'm betting that you could have actual free health care (rather than paid for by taxes OR individually) and it wouldn't make one bit of difference in school shootings. I think (again) the school shootings are a combination of overcrowding schools, coupled with a heightened perceived need for attention that accompanies any situation in which too many feel that their lives are meaningless by virtue of being too small a fish in too big a pond... ...further coupled with the promise of a cure for that meaninglessness offered by the fame that the act will get them -- just as they've witnessed so many times before on National TV. Health care has nothing to do with it. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 11:10 AM (#2168843) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Riginslinger "Does anyone recall the experiments and observations that were done and made with rats? How crowding caused behaviors that were antisocial and dangerous within the community?" Yes! I think you're onto something. Also there were the experiments that--it was Either Alan Ginsberg or William Burroughs--wrote about in generating what he called "fruit rats." |
|
11 Oct 07 - 11:14 AM (#2168848) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: katlaughing Baloney, John. IF a child's parents do not have to worry about being able to afford health care, they would be able to focus more on the child and their lives, apart from their jobs, and get a kid help without worrying over working themselves to the bone to pay for it. WORRYING about paying for health care AND, about not getting it because one lacks the funds, takes up an inordinate amount of energy and time. IT causes tremendous amounts of stress which can take away from any attention, etc. being spent on family. People who are barely surviving have no energy for anything but barely surviving. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 11:19 AM (#2168853) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Wesley S I haven't done any research on this - but I had the idea that most of these shootings had taken place in suburban or rural schools. Not the overpopulated areas like New York City or Chicago. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 11:22 AM (#2168854) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Emma B Calhoun conducted over-population on rats in 1958 the results were published in a paper entitled Crowding into the Behavioral Sink |
|
11 Oct 07 - 11:30 AM (#2168861) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Alice John, health care includes mental health care. Have you priced what a counselor and medication costs lately? Remember that counseling sessions go on for a length of time. I you don't have the money, the kid does not get help. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 12:09 PM (#2168879) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Riginslinger "People who are barely surviving have no energy for anything but barely surviving." Absolutely right! "...health care includes mental health care." Right again. Could it be that the health care system is at the root of the whole thing? |
|
11 Oct 07 - 12:28 PM (#2168899) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: catspaw49 "Could it be that the health care system is at the root of the whole thing?" The problem is a weed with many roots. Read this thread and you'll find at least a dozen subjects that are contributing factors and need to be addressed. Certainly the health care system sucks but read through the topics here. Perhaps the biggest problem is addressing them all because the task/situation at hand seems kinda' overwhelming. Gotta' start somewhere though and a good start would be health care. Spaw |
|
11 Oct 07 - 12:45 PM (#2168913) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Riginslinger Spaw - I have looked through the thread, but probably missed some things. One thing that did stand out to me is, if mental health treatment had been available going back several generations it might have helped a lot. It seems to me that the kid who flipped out at Virginia Tech could have really benefited from counselling. And there were people out there trying to help, but the support just didn't have enough depth, and wasn't broadly organized. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 12:58 PM (#2168925) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Peace The fact that I was smoking a cigarette three blocks away from home in a district in Montreal about 50 years ago (I was 10 at the time) is a fact that got home before I did. My reception was quite warm, first from my grandmother than my mother. It seems that back then people tended to look out for all kids, not just their own. I got involed with some hubcaps from a Chevy way back when and that information was passed onto my mom, too. Sometimes when we didn't have food a bag of groceries would just appear on the step. I know we did that on occasion for other families that had a hard time due to one thing or another. I got caught with the slingshot and my best friend's dad gave me a kick in the arse. My mom didn't sue him. He hired me the following week to mow his lawn. I earned a dime and some cake. Did the job for about three years every summer. I once ignored the admonition to get away from the TV. I was not allowed to watch the TV for about six months, no shit! Today, that cause for some asshole to say that the child is being punished cruelly. When I was reminded to take out the garbage, it was a one-time reminder. I got no remuneration for that or washing supper dishes or cleaning the room or making the bed or tidying up. I was a member of the family and they were my chores. Period. We are raising a world of sissies. We have learned to give kids a few bucks to get them out of our hair into someone else's, and in the process, we don't know our kids at all. And, of course, we are surprised. Some little fu#ker whines and cries because he can't have the latest X-box. Kid, go earn some bucks and buy one. And if you get caught stealing one, after the neighbour has kicked your ass from one end of town to the other, I will NOT sue him on your behalf. When the child swears at the mother, slap the father. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 01:04 PM (#2168929) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Emma B Despite the British national hobby of grumbling about everthing from the weather to the National Health Service it must be said that the provision of universal health care in the UK remains relatively intact and available to all. Nevertheless we are facing an alarming rising trend in teenagers committing crimes while armed with guns. Although there is a mandatory five year mimimum jail term for people convicted of possessing an illegal firearm Paul Cavadino, the chief executive of the National Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders has said "Tough minimum sentences will have little effect on gun crime. We will tackle it effectively only by reducing the supply of illegal weapons and combating the macho, glamorised gun culture that attracts young people to firearms." It has also been argued that violence can be a manifestation of "powerlessness" and the frustration that accompanies the perception that the individual will never be able to aquire those things equated with "success" in our current society. It's not a simple issue; while I have argued (and will continue to do so) for the promotion of health care available to all I honestly don't think that this is the underlying cause of an ill that appears to be affecting so many societies. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 01:13 PM (#2168935) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: M.Ted The Secret Service did a study relating to these shootings--it was motivated by the Columbine Shootings--they examined 37 incidents--and yes, they did interview perpetrators--Here are their "10 Key Findings of the Safe Schools Initiative"-- ¥ Incidents of targeted violence at school rarely were sudden, impulsive acts. ¥ Prior to most incidents, other people knew about the attacker's idea and/or plan to attack. ¥ Most attackers did not threaten their targets directly prior to advancing the attack. ¥ There is no accurate or useful "profile" of students who engaged in targeted school violence. ¥ Most attackers engaged in some behavior prior to the incident that caused others concern or indicated a need for help. ¥ Most attackers had difficulty coping with significant losses or personal failures. Moreover, many had considered or attempted suicide. ¥ Many attackers felt bullied, persecuted or injured by others prior to the attack. ¥ Most attackers had access to and had used weapons prior to the attack. ¥ In many cases, other students were involved in some capacity. ¥ Despite prompt law enforcement responses, most shooting incidents were stopped by means other than law enforcement intervention. Most of you have not read this surprisingly clear and concise report, which may be understandable,. but most school administrators and school board members have not., which is less understandable. I know, because over the last several years, I have been involved in creating, delivering, and funding violence prevention programs for schools. I have quoted this, and related reports a lot, and folks are generally surprised by it. Not surprised enough to do anything, though—the same folks who locked down their schools for weeks after Columbine, and made highly publicized vows that they would do everything humanly possible to prevent such a tragedy in their own communities have had other things on their minds ever since. They haven't supported new initiatives, and have even cut back funding for existing ones. In one case, a school district that I will not name, received a $2.5 million federal grant that was earmarked for violence prevention programs, and used it to hire more teachers. Yes, it's true that we don't have all the answers, but it is also true that we don't care enough to act on the answers that we do have. Safe Schools Initiative Report (PDF) |
|
11 Oct 07 - 01:17 PM (#2168939) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Peace M Ted's link. (Or one like it. Link didn't work, M.) |
|
11 Oct 07 - 01:19 PM (#2168941) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: M.Ted Try this link instead |
|
11 Oct 07 - 01:33 PM (#2168950) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: M.Ted Peace and I posted the same link, he's just fasted at the keyboard-- |
|
11 Oct 07 - 01:49 PM (#2168967) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Rapparee M. Ted, I think that you're dead on about people not caring enough to act. I think there is a lot of "not caring enough" around. After all, Columbine wasn't in MY town.... |
|
11 Oct 07 - 02:00 PM (#2168974) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: M.Ted And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? |
|
11 Oct 07 - 02:24 PM (#2168984) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Little Hawk I think that violence is almost always a manifestation of someone's reaction to feelings of powerlessness...or their fear of losing their power, their fear of loss of control over some situation, or their feeling that they are unable to control something or someone that causes them fear and emotional pain. I was in an almost constant state of fear when I was at school (fear of certain of the other students)...but I don't tend to react violently unless I am completely and utterly desperate, with my back against the wall, and usually only if someone else is being violent to me first. I react instead by withdrawing as much as possible from people. I try to disappear. I recall that my own father always tended to get violent (with me) (or with our various dogs) when he felt that he wasn't 100% in control of the situation. (in other words, I wasn't doing or saying what he wanted at the time...or the dog wasn't...whichever) There was never a need for any such violence, but he could not stand not being in control. No one likes losing their power. Some react violently, some don't. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 04:14 PM (#2169035) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Riginslinger "¥ There is no accurate or useful "profile" of students who engaged in targeted school violence." That surprises me. I would have thought that there would be. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 05:24 PM (#2169097) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Rapparee I abhor violence and I will do whatever I can to avoid it. If, however, I am put in the situation where I have no other alternative (rare, very rare!) someone will be end up injured or dead and I will do my utmost to see that it is not me. But so far that situation hasn't come up. I hope that it never does, because I would feel no remorse for doing what I felt I had to do. None. It's because I can only see violence being needed on EXTREMELY RARE occasions that I don't understand the reasons for school shootings or any similar thing, such as spousal abuse or even a fight. My manhood isn't threatened by your words or even by you pushing me around. If you push me into a corner, however, YOUR life would be threatened. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 05:36 PM (#2169111) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Little Hawk That is the attitude of an intelligent warrior, Rapaire, and it speaks well for you. Such situations are indeed very rare for most of us, and it's a good thing. I have been surprised a couple of times by sudden physical emergencies...surprised in that I instinctively knew what to do and did it. I wouldn't have expected that. They were not assaults, however, unless you count the time the billy goat went after me and a couple of other guys... ;-) He was definitely out to do some real damage, but I got the better of him. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 05:42 PM (#2169118) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Emma B hey! LH - I'm not the world's most athletic woman but I cleared a five barred gate once when persued by an amorous Billy goat! However I'm glad that I did not have access to a gun when I genuinely felt in physical danger from another person once and that there was a bolted door available. There but for grace....... |
|
11 Oct 07 - 06:00 PM (#2169133) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Rapparee A good strong door is always a good choice. So is leaving. So is a phone call to the cops. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 06:04 PM (#2169136) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: M.Ted " If, however, I am put in the situation where I have no other alternative (rare, very rare!) someone will be end up injured or dead and I will do my utmost to see that it is not me." And that, Rapaire, is the profile that Riginslinger is looking for--simply put, the shooter is any person who has reached that "rare, very rare!" point where they perceive that they are backed into a corner and have no other way out. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 06:17 PM (#2169146) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Bill D There's now a report that they have confisticated a large cache of weapons from a 14yr. old in Pennsylvania, who was trying to recruit a friend for another Columbine. One of his guns was bought FOR him by his mother. He had videos of the Columbine incident, and was angry because of bullying & harassment because he was overweight. So....along with finding these kids before they DO something, we need to seriously combat the ever present issue of bullying by other kids. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 06:36 PM (#2169170) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Rapparee Yup. As I've been saying, there's no one simple solution. Sure wish there was.... |
|
11 Oct 07 - 06:37 PM (#2169171) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: John Hardly Bullying has been around forever. School shootings haven't. There's something different going on here. "He had videos of the Columbine incident" It always goes back to previous media coverage and yet everyone would rather think that it is healthcare, or bullys, or... I don't get it. He had videos of Columbine, but it's about bullys? |
|
11 Oct 07 - 06:44 PM (#2169178) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Peace The most important single post on this thread is the one by M Ted in which he links to the Secret Service article. It is worth reading. I value the opinions of Mudcatters, but facts do tend to carry a 'certain authority', no offense to anyone. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 06:51 PM (#2169183) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Big Mick Pat, I have tried to respond to your post at least a dozen times and then deleted the whole damn thing. Your description of your battle for your son's life just leaves me wanting to weep, and alternately wanting to grab this problem and resolve it for you and the family. You are such a loving and committed bunch that you just don't deserve this. I think that is the problem for me. I am used to grabbing a problem by the throat, and choking the life out of it. But one like this leaves a helpless feeling. How the hell does one fight something that they cannot get hold of????? Know this, you are square in my prayers. I admire you and Karen, as I always have, and know that if the ammunition needed to fight this monster off is love of family, and devotion to them, then you two are more than well equipped. I can offer nothing but love and admiration, and if you are in need of a chat, let me know. I still have the number. Much love, Mick |
|
11 Oct 07 - 07:15 PM (#2169204) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Art Thieme Pat---That goes for me too. I'm here to talk if it'll help anything---in spite of what I told Kat about not wanting to talk about some of it a while ago. Folks---I could spew the details of our last 30 years struggling with the physical and mental health systems here, but I am sure it would serve no purpose. You people do keep this life being a gas as we fight our way through it; sometimes it's pure oxygen, and sometimes it's a fart, but I breathe deeply as long as it wafts my way. Art |
|
11 Oct 07 - 08:07 PM (#2169228) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Leadfingers I see no one has brought up the matter of the Violence that is freely available to youngsters , in Films , Videos , and particularly Video Games !! There has to be a level of desensitising with so much available . |
|
11 Oct 07 - 08:15 PM (#2169232) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: robomatic Several streams of thoughts: One huge school disaster that the perp apparently wished to blame on property taxes: The 1927 bombing of the school in Bath, Michigan. I believe the town never recovered. Michael Moore can make a movie watchable, I was not a fan of everything he did in "Bowling for Columbine" like picking on a clearly confused Charlton Heston and asking Walmart for a refund on the ammunition, but I thought the interview with Marilyn Manson was interesting. Pat, thank you for sharing your struggles on behalf of Michael, and the best of luck to you. I hope he realizes he is lucky to have you and that you are on his side. There has been some interesting work with Depression, as in looking on Depression as a Disease. I've listened to Peter Kramer's interviews on behalf of his book: "Against Depression" The subject is worth its own thread. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 08:23 PM (#2169236) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: GUEST,hg The SS report is chilling. Most were white males between the ages of 13-18, from two parent families and two thirds used a gun taken from their home or a relative's home. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 09:45 PM (#2169280) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Neil D Does anyone recall the experiments and observations that were done and made with rats? How crowding caused behaviors that were antisocial and dangerous within the community? Yes Peace, I do remember reading about these tests back in freshman Psych more years ago than I care to admit. I will say that when I read about those tests the Earth's population was in the neighborhood of 4 billion. What is it now, 7 billion? Talk about ignoring the handwriting on the wall! |
|
11 Oct 07 - 09:49 PM (#2169283) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Neil D To Pat and Karen, our hearts go out to and your family. We too, raised a very angry child. He is still a basically angry adult, but deals with it. We hope that things work out well for you. Neil and Christina D |
|
11 Oct 07 - 09:59 PM (#2169293) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Art Thieme A great book I read years ago---The Population omb. By Jonothan Kozol -- BI think it was. It was scary even back then. ut now we are into the years he was projecting into... Art |
|
11 Oct 07 - 10:05 PM (#2169297) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: pdq I believe The Population Bomb was written by a Stanford professor named Paul Erlich. |
|
11 Oct 07 - 10:18 PM (#2169307) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: M.Ted Thanks, Robomatic, for bringing up the Bath School Disaster. I grew up only a few miles from Bath, and, in the whole time we were in school, no one ever said a word about it. In fact, I only found out about it as an adult. However, several times a year, every year, from the time I was in kindergarten until I graduated high school, we were evacuted from our schools, to the farthest part of the play fields, while the police and fire departments scoured the building, in response to anonymous, telephoned bomb threats. If this shows anything, it is simply that silence is no protection--people still know about them, and continue to act them out-- |
|
12 Oct 07 - 05:43 PM (#2169868) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: sian, west wales As it happens, BBC Radio 4 has had two items today which, I think, are relevant. One is on a report about primary schools and stress levels in children. I think the interviewee who said that kids are confused by being told that happiness = having "stuff" put her finger on something. Then on an entirely separate programme - You and Yours - they were talking about the health and well being benefits of singing. No arguments from all those here present, I would think. sian |
|
12 Oct 07 - 06:15 PM (#2169889) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Emma B maybe just a little Sian - I really found the "singing" exercises so off putting and condescending that I'm seriously worried about being a pensioner! |
|
12 Oct 07 - 08:25 PM (#2169964) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Azizi Pat, I'm also sending your son and you, and the rest of your family positive vibrations. And I'd like to also take this opportunity to thank you for all the lightness and brightness you have brought to Mudcat in spite of the very difficult times that your family is experiencing. |
|
13 Oct 07 - 01:03 AM (#2170065) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: GUEST,leeneia Spaw rightly talks about the damage to the brain and mind done by parents' drink or drugs. So far nobody has mentioned another source of trouble - brain damage caused by blows to the head or by shaking. A brain-damaged person is usually an angry person. A newspaper article today (or yesterday) said that the boy in Ohio had often been sent to school unwashed and in dirty clothes. What do you want to bet that the adults who failed to keep him clean also failed to protect him from blows to the head? |
|
13 Oct 07 - 08:24 AM (#2170214) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Riginslinger "A brain-damaged person is usually an angry person." I'd be mad too if somebody damaged my brain. Oh, but maybe they have, and... |
|
13 Oct 07 - 08:50 AM (#2170235) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: goatfell well its sad but what do you do when you live in a country that beleives that it every citizen's right to carry guns. why don't you just make the owning of guns illegal or you must be a certain age to own one and even then join a gun club and have them to look after your guns, so much for the gun culture eh! |
|
14 Oct 07 - 06:00 AM (#2170761) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: beardedbruce "you must be a certain age to own one " You mean like the current US Federal laws that prohibit gun ownership to minors, felons, and the mentally ill? |
|
14 Oct 07 - 09:48 AM (#2170842) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Donuel I would have the NRA (not the gun manufacturers) open to any and all civil liabilities for any and all school shootings. Maybe after the first 100 million dollars in liability fines and punitive judments they might become a voice for good respondsible change regarding guns and children instead of the voice for better gun youth training. If the NRA is dissolved then go after the gun makers. |
|
14 Oct 07 - 09:53 AM (#2170848) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: beardedbruce And AAA instead of the insurance companies, in case of automobile accidents? Please show me ANY case of school shootings where the weapons used were in LEGAL hands. |
|
14 Oct 07 - 11:05 PM (#2171282) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Riginslinger Maybe not school shootings, but that off-duty deputy the other day was "legal" with a gun, and maybe that guy in the Amish case a year or so back. Most of them have been kids, though. On the other hand, I don't see what's to be gained by going after the NRA or the manufacturers. |
|
27 Feb 12 - 02:14 PM (#3314157) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: GUEST,Bluesman Sad news coming through of another school shooting here. http://uk.news.yahoo.com/shooting-reported-high-school-near-cleveland-141312873.html |
|
27 Feb 12 - 03:15 PM (#3314176) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting From: Rapparee Yes, I used to work about 15 miles south from there. Chardon is the county seat. Heavily Amish area. |
|
27 Feb 12 - 07:53 PM (#3314286) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting(refresh for new one) From: GUEST,grover Dated a girl from Chardon in my youth. My mother is buried in East Claridon Cemetary just a few miles from there. We lived about 30 miles north next to Lake Erie. Makes me sad when I hear of bad things happening where I grew up. A universal feeling, I suppose. |
|
27 Feb 12 - 08:15 PM (#3314295) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting(refresh for new one) From: gnu Oh my. |
|
27 Feb 12 - 09:01 PM (#3314301) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting(refresh for new one) From: Bobert Here we go again... "Hand"guns have outlived their shelf life... 100,000 Americans will be shot with "hand" guns this year and next and next... The serve no purpose... Other than killing other people... They need to go!!! B~ |
|
27 Feb 12 - 09:25 PM (#3314305) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting(refresh for new one) From: catspaw49 Fortunately Bobertz, our wonderful governor has made it our just and legal right to pack iron everywhere! Now it ain't okay in all schools but it is at the college level. Heading out for the bar? Load up! Restaurant? Sure....no table? Shoot that fuckin' hostess. Don't like the sermons at church? Shoot that jackass preacher! Okay.......I still love the Second and shooting sports are really great but we gotta' do a whole lot better than we are now, whatever that takes. Spaw |
|
28 Feb 12 - 06:41 AM (#3314456) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting(refresh for new one) From: Big Al Whittle Read the shooters poem on facebook. Seems like an intelligent kid, with a good vocabulary. A halfway decent English teacher would be quite excited to have a kid like that in his class. Although I've met English teachers who wouldn't even be interested. Pity he had to shoot people before we read his poem. |
|
28 Feb 12 - 08:28 AM (#3314502) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting(refresh for new one) From: catspaw49 Yeah Al.......and for those of you who have read all this thread will recall my son Michael was having major problems in 2006-7. Early this morning when I read the poem Al refers to I just was cold. Michael could have written that to the letter. Mike is also an excellent artist and had many graphic drawings including a particularly chilling one of three people on crosses with their "spirits" ascending above them and the words "death of the family" written below. We spent several years of hell as we all struggled through this period trying to get help and care for a son who had those thoughts and had also tried to kill himself. Today you would not believe Mike was that kid. WE were lucky to eventually find the help needed........I feel deeply for not only the killed and wounded students and their families but also for this troubled young man and the grandparents who were rearing him. Spaw |
|
28 Feb 12 - 01:33 PM (#3314666) Subject: RE: BS: Ohio school shooting(refresh for new one) From: Bettynh Meawhile, here in NH students are dealing with a only slightly different issue. A 14-year-old shot himself in the school cafeteria. They were in the middle of an anti-bullying campaign. Now they're dealing with survivors' guilt. In all, very big issues for very young people. |