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09 Nov 07 - 10:22 AM (#2189810) Subject: folksingers who quit,and why? From: The Sandman On another thread Wee little drummer,asked a question about all the professional singers,who decide to pack it in. If a lot of people decide it is not economically viable to be a professional folksinger,leaving the scene creatively poorer, should we not be trying to find out, the reason why. Organisations like perform,have not lasted. any alternative suggestions.Dick Miles |
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09 Nov 07 - 10:55 AM (#2189835) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Dan Schatz Another possibility for some folks - especially in countries where things are not quite so compact, is the difficulty of the road. It's a tough life being away from home 30 weeks out of the year, driving 6-8 hours a day between gigs. It's difficult to hold onto relationships, raise a family, feel a sense of ordinary community. Dan Schatz |
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09 Nov 07 - 11:04 AM (#2189843) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Leadfingers Actually making a living (Rather than an existence) out of the UK folk scene is not easy ! Far too many performers have to have some kind of other income to pay for minor things like mortgages and food ! Tha immediately restrains how many gigs can be done , even with the sensible holiday Days available in UK Companies , and IF you have a family , you want to spend some leisure time with them ! |
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09 Nov 07 - 11:07 AM (#2189847) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: stallion OK as a semi pro I quit because, I remember it well, I was last on and getting a fiver and a bed for the night (usual for late sixties early seventies)everyone who went before I thought were better than me and I did not not enjoy it one bit, the evening went disastrously and I decided to call it a day, I didn't want to put myself through anything like that again i had humiliated myself cos I really didn't want to be there. thirty five years on and with the "boys" I feel comfortable enough to do the odd gig but that night has stuck with me and haunted me for the last thirty five years. Not only that, on the strength of that one disaster the phone stopped ringing, good thing really I couldn't face an audience for a long time after that. Peter |
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09 Nov 07 - 11:12 AM (#2189850) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Mr Happy Do we know what other sorts of jobs the folk singers have? For example: Jez Lowe Martin Carthy Ralph McTell Pete Coe John Kirkpatrick Sid Kipper |
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09 Nov 07 - 11:15 AM (#2189852) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: The Sandman What do you during the day? |
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09 Nov 07 - 11:31 AM (#2189866) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: The Sandman In my case I teach music. |
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09 Nov 07 - 11:32 AM (#2189868) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST,Anon for professional reasons (sorry)! I decide to knock it on the head, deffo, about once every two months... 10 reasons to be uncheerful: 1) Being turned down flat by clubs that have never seen you is pretty demoralising. Specially when they say they're not prepared to judge you from a recording OR come to a nearby gig (and are not impressed by a massive gig list of other clubs, including loads of re-bookings, or pages of glowing reviews either). Telling us to call in and do a floor spot 200 miles away from home, when we're already away half the year is just insulting. That REALLY makes you want to quit! 2) Being turned down by clubs because you're too trad, or too contemporary, or you do your own material - when in fact you can do a whole evening of either (or any combination of the three). But if you suggest this they just think you're just being mercenary - and turn you down! Grrr! 3) Club organisers with answerphones on permanently, and people who don't answer emails. A polite 'no thanks' takes seconds and saves hours of wasted effort on our part trying to get through. You might think silence means 'no thanks' and we should just give up - but it frequently doesn't, and how long should you give it anyway? You can't start booking the next night of the trip till you know if you have a gig or not. And trying to pin down your options when half the maybes have suddenly gone to sleep is a NIGHTMARE! I always answer all emails from a real person. I think it's just rude not to. 4) Poor turnout because regulars who've never seen you assume they won't like you - because, err... they've never seen you. This is the wrist-slitting worst - what are you supposed to do, for God's sake? Go play eveyone's house?! 5) Not being able to fill your diary because there are simply not enough club gigs out there any more, and also way too many people wanting to play them (often for peanuts because they don't need the money). 6) The travelling's ok - the driving's not. Specially road works, accidents, other drivers, rain, fog, snow and being late. 7) Low fees. Most pros operate below the minimum wage. But clubs are small and club people don't want to pay very much for an evening's entertainment so we get by. But it's not easy. 8) Missing kids' birthdays and other special occasions. 9) Guilt about carbon footprint. 10) The narrowmindedness of some folkies, who are horrible to newcomers - artists and audiences alike. |
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09 Nov 07 - 11:40 AM (#2189875) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Mr Happy It's kind've irrevalent what I do, 'cos I'm not a professional folk singer - just do it for pleasure. |
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09 Nov 07 - 11:55 AM (#2189883) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: TheSnail Does giving up being a professional mean giving up being a folksinger? Turning the question round, why does someone become a professional folksinger in the first place? |
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09 Nov 07 - 12:02 PM (#2189891) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Grab For most musicians in any genre, it's not economical to be a professional musician. End of story, really. And the way to make money in a goldrush is to be the bloke who sells shovels, not the bloke who does the digging. Which presumably is why Jacey and Brian Bedford now spend their time doing act management and studio production respectively, instead of gigging as Artisan. Graham. |
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09 Nov 07 - 12:05 PM (#2189893) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: breezy when young it might be 'ego' a way into the charts fame to get away from home and the wife and kids, no , thats for holiday reps and then theres 'the other' to get out of the classroom your turn |
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09 Nov 07 - 12:13 PM (#2189897) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego I was one who came out of the fifties coffee house scene in the US, progressed to the point of being a member of a folk trio, complete with a manager and professional bookings. It was early in the Viet Nam era. Our youngest member, our bass player and maybe our most creative influence in many ways, left for the Army. We had just won a spot on a USO tour to the far east in a San Francisco-based competition, so the timing was disasterous. I was starting a family and trying to finish college. I decided to take a break from performing. From that point on, I performed occasionally as a single, but found fewer opportunities and fewer kindred souls with whom to work. Then, in 1975, I was involved in a bicycle vs. auto accident which severely damaged my left index finger (and other parts). It took a couple of years becore I could bar chord again, but not with the former dexterity. I am fortunate to be able to play at all. My son carries on. He has the passion and willingness to make the sacrifice for his art. He works full time to support this wonderful habit. I now play for my own enjoyment and an occasional private get-together, but long ago realized I was not going to make a living at music. I feel blessed to have been involved when I was able. |
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09 Nov 07 - 12:22 PM (#2189903) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Little Hawk Hmmmm...well, I quit performing awhile back, after gradually becoming less and less enthusiastic about it over a period of about 10 years, I guess. It just didn't seem romantic and special anymore to do that, not like it once did, though I am still happy to go and see others perform now and then. I no longer feel the urge to do it, and that's all there is to it. I enjoy playing some keyboard at home, however, so I obviously still like the music for its own sake, I just am not attracted to the performing aspect any longer...nor do I feel the urge to write songs any longer. I seem to have pretty well written all the songs that I wanted to at this point, and said what I wanted to say. It hit me at a certain stage that it simply doesn't matter how many people you impress...or even if you impress anyone. It adds up to nothing in the long run, matter of fact. People forget about it soon enough, and they move on. The funny thing is, I had a father who spent his entire life trying to impress people...until he died at age 82. And it did him no good whatsoever, far as I can see, though he certainly impressed quite a number of people. I decided to get off that particular treadmill before I die. It would be fun, though, to be that young again and think that there could simply be nothing more glorious than to get up on a stage, play a guitar, and impress the audience! ;-) It's like being a legend in your own time...great as long as you believe in it. |
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09 Nov 07 - 12:53 PM (#2189934) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: The Sandman mr happy.[whatdo youduring theday]was a reference BY JohnKirkpatrick[Ithink]to folk club organisers,who ask you this question when you have just travelled 200 miles to do their gig. The point was/is that it is impossible to do anything else and be available for long distance gigs[200 miles etc]if you have another job,the question was not aimed specifically at you MrHappy. |
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09 Nov 07 - 01:03 PM (#2189944) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: The Sandman Snail,no,you must answer the question without hesitation, deviation or repetition,not make up your own questions.Dick Miles |
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09 Nov 07 - 01:10 PM (#2189952) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Stringsinger Folk music became commercial. It was usurped by the show business mainstream. Everyone expected too much. |
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09 Nov 07 - 01:17 PM (#2189956) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: dick greenhaus A staggeringly high percentage of young entertainers quit the life every year;I don't know if a higher percentage of folksingers do or not. Show business is no business,, |
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09 Nov 07 - 01:24 PM (#2189959) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: TheSnail Not being a professional folksinger myself, I have no idea why anyone should quit so a little background research is needed. Understanding why anyone chooses to be a professional folksinger in the first place is useful background information. Captain Birdseye's original posting contained a non-sequitur. Just because someone ceases to be a professional folksinger does not mean that they cease to be a folksinger, leave the scene and leave it creatively poorer. |
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09 Nov 07 - 01:48 PM (#2189972) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST,Winger I think that in the case of the UK the fact that most folk clubs and festivals are run by "amateurs" might have a bearing on the attrition rate amongst full-time performers (Remember the heated debate about this in the Melody Maker folk column way back?). If you are a performer trying to make a living on the folk club circuit you tend to expect the organizers to be equally "professional" in their approach to running events. However, if the club organizer has a 9 to 5 job, a house, a wife and two kids to look after, the folk club has to be a hobby. Albeit an important hobby. This, I'd say, has always been the strength AND weakness of the folk scene. Personally, I know a few performers wo have done quite well over the years (supporting a family, paying off a mortgage, etc) but the are in the minority. Like the man said - don't give up your day job. |
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09 Nov 07 - 01:55 PM (#2189979) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Jim Lad "Family" I didn't get married and have kids just to go out on the road every week end or for weeks at a time. This is my second time around and subsequently, my second lay off. I wouldn't change a thing. |
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09 Nov 07 - 02:05 PM (#2189984) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Richard Bridge Some find the money pressures a pain, I believe. Some find perceived or actual criticism a pain, I believe. Some lose the muse, I believe. It ain't "folk" but I know of a former sidesman with Joe Jackson who is now a professor of law. |
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09 Nov 07 - 02:10 PM (#2189989) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Richard Bridge Damn - missed an opportunity to go off into "What is Folk" and "What is a Folksinger" |
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09 Nov 07 - 03:03 PM (#2190036) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Flowerchild Once a singer.... always a singer whether one shows it to the public or not. I agree with The anon guests posting...depressive as it may be, it's the reality of finding places to sing, being heard in the first place whether that be on radio, gigs or festivals. The latter is depressing when big name bands are chosen to play in country folk festivals over the bloody good local folk singers... and when you get that elusive place to play, it's whether you earn enough cash to pay the band members and whether you can make enough to pay for the petrol home. but nevertheless, a folk singer is a wonderful person to be around... |
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09 Nov 07 - 03:11 PM (#2190040) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: PoppaGator I never became all that professional to begin with, but I did spend about three years of my early twenties in a full-time effort to "become" a musician/vocalist. 90-95% of the time busking on steetcorners, occasionally a few actual scheduled indoor appearances. Three years surviving without a single day job; surely that has to count for something, even if not real full-fledged "profesionalism." The immediate and sudden end to this phase of my life was my arrest for draft evasion in late 1972, very shortly before the end of military draft on Jan 1, 1973. (Too long and involved a story to provide details here...) Just over a year later, after accepting induction into the Army, petitioning for discharge as a conscientious objector, and eventually being denied the c.o. status BUT granted an honorable discharge "for the convenience of the government," I was no longer motivated to resume my quixotic quest for a musical career. For one thing, I had gotten married in the meanwhile. In addition to the obvious economic factors, I felt it necessary to abandon the lifestyle I had cultivated as a performer because it just didn't seem compatible with monogamy. As hard as I had found it to make any money in music, it had been unexpectedly (even ridiculously) easy to make new girlfriends, most of them interested in only the most temporary of relationships. It was fun while it lasted, but I had come to a point where I had really had enough and was ready to move on. It's probably wrong to equate an innocent activity like musical performance with a particular set of behaviors, but that was my feeling, based upon my experience, when I first embarked upon a lifetime of day-job toil and of raising a family. Much older and wiser now, I'm gradually getting back into performing, and I do look forward to a time when I can earn a little income from music ~ not enough to live on, that's not realistic, but something to supplement retirement. Like Little Hawk, I don't "need" to perform anymore, nor to impress anyone. However, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that I absolutely need to sing, and over the years have found various different ways to satisfy that urge. Right now, these days, I'm hoping to develop a way to earn a few pennies in the process. |
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09 Nov 07 - 03:15 PM (#2190044) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Linda Kelly I love performing but a full time job running a folk club writing grandchildren and other hobbies makes it hard to perform very far from home. I cannot and do not want to stop, but we do not publicise ourselves. One day, it will become too much-not yet I hope. |
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09 Nov 07 - 03:24 PM (#2190055) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: stallion Ha Why did I start singing again, therapy, yup, therapy. I had a nervous breakdown and the doctor asked when I felt most relaxed, I said singing in the company of other singers, to wit he ordered me to give my job up and go out singing at least twice a week or I would be dead within three years, that was in 2002, I quit and I do and I am still here! Peter PS We would like to do some gigs in Kent, anyone interested? mmmmm it was only a thought |
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09 Nov 07 - 03:26 PM (#2190058) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Richard Bridge There aren't a lot of "for real money" gigs, but contact Doug Hudson. He is the capo di tutti gigbookers around here. Didn't I say that before? |
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09 Nov 07 - 03:39 PM (#2190072) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Little Hawk The Snail said "Understanding why anyone chooses to be a professional folksinger in the first place is useful background information." Well, I chose to be because folksingers were the people I admired the most. They were my heroes. I wanted to be like the people I most admired...Dylan, Baez, and Buffy Sainte-Marie...and various others in that profession. To me there was simply no more glorious thing a person could possibly be than a great folksinger! I see them more the way I would see other people now...just regular people, that's all. "Now, I'm just average, common too...I've just the same as him or you...I'm everybody's brother and son...I ain't different from anyone! No use talkin' to me......it'd be the same as talkin' to you!" - Bob Dylan, from an amusing Guthrie-esque talking blues song he did in the early 60's. |
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09 Nov 07 - 03:51 PM (#2190080) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST,Sine nomine Loved the music Loved the people Loved the friendly informal atmosphere of the clubs (UK) You'd think that would be enough, wouldn't you? BUT: Hated the motorway queues and monotonous hours of unscenic roads Hated the rocketing price of petrol and the constant smell of traffic fumes Hated the unproductive hanging around Hated the increasingly competitive hustling for too few spaces and diminishing returns A gig any distance away pretty much hi-jacks your life, and you spend most of your day (a) getting to the gig (b) waiting around for the gig to start (c) eating crap fast food while doing (b) It just meant that I couldn't do anything else with my life with any measure of consistency, or spend enough quality time with people I loved. The whole day would often be spent in service of that hour or so of performing in the evening. And sitting in a car/van for hours is the bum-numbing PITS, even if you don't factor in the carbon footprint or the expense. These polluting factors finally outweighed the joy and rewards of it. I could probably have put up with everything else - even the poor money - if gigging hadn't sucked up so much of the rest of my life into its downside. It was the time drain that really did for me. Do I regret it? Sure Will I always love that scene? Sure Would I go back? No. |
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09 Nov 07 - 04:19 PM (#2190097) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego Addendum: Remembering the cameraderie and the sense of acceptance and belonging that the earlier coffee houses often provided, I accept that it was part of the growth process; tied to my youth and my dreams of the time, 1956-65. It was a very amateur-driven thing. There is no way to recreate that time and place, though I wish it were more available to young people now. The commercialization that occurred during that time brought a lot of young people in, but also drove a lot of them out, leaving some really embittered. The music "business" can be a very cold, ugly and unsympathetic one. The late Jim Croce's widow, Ingrid, once told me that people in that world were the worst she had ever dealt with. And, HE was one of the successful ones. We should all enjoy the music for its own sake, and not for the ego-gratification, money and status so many lust after. If you have the true passion, follow it. But, for God's sake, don't cut off your ear for it. I'm just glad music is still in my life, at any level. |
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09 Nov 07 - 04:27 PM (#2190105) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Jim Lad Richard touched on something about Folk Festivals, up there. Been a long time since Folk Festivals looked seriously at the real folksingers. Proffesional "Festival Bands" who contribute nothing to Folk seems to be the order of the day. They make more noise and draw more $$$$$. When it swings back the other way, I think you'll find more solos willing to play their for the rest of the year. That would be a different thread though. |
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09 Nov 07 - 04:35 PM (#2190112) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: kendall I had no choice. When cancer robbed me of my voice I was useless as a folk singer. |
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09 Nov 07 - 04:45 PM (#2190119) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Folkiedave Been a long time since Folk Festivals looked seriously at the real folksingers I am an inveterate festival goer. Surely the "Festival Bands" as you call them cost money - and the festival organiser is relying on them to draw crowds to pay for the festival. Which real folksingers are the festival organisers ignoring and why do you think they are making a mistake? |
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09 Nov 07 - 04:58 PM (#2190131) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: stallion kendal, you lost the voice but we didn't lose the man, the world would have been a poorer place without you, and, you still tell mean stories! Pete |
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09 Nov 07 - 05:06 PM (#2190137) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: The Sandman Folkie Dave,Wee Little Drummer,thinks they are ignoring Jack Hudson. I think they are ignoring unaccompanied singers of traditional songs., whether these two examples are real folksingers,who knows: but people without good management,do tend to get ignored, regardless of their talent., as you rightly say, Dave, commerciality has taken over. |
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09 Nov 07 - 05:48 PM (#2190172) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: oggie To be a professional anything means that you are in a business, like it or loathe it. If you can't pay the bills you leave/go bust. If you can't stand the lifestyle you leave. If you realise you can earn more money for less hassle and get a mortgage etc you leave ( or become semi-pro). If you realise that you can't earn as a pro what you currently earn as a semi plus your day job you don't bother becominf pro. Or you may just grow out of it sit back and enjoy the music/performing without the pressure of thinking "I need 4 more gigs that month and why doesn't x return my calls and how do I pay that bill and s**t is that the bailiffs". A lot of the longstanding "professional folksingers" listed above, also make a portion of their income from non-singing activities, instructional DVDs (Kirkpatrick), instrument teaching, school's work (eg Pete Coe), web design (Dick Gaughan) etc. It also helps if you have a royalty stream (MacTell) or at least have some money from your back catalogue. Steve |
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09 Nov 07 - 05:54 PM (#2190175) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Jim Lad Folkiedave: Most of us. |
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10 Nov 07 - 11:30 AM (#2190511) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Folkiedave Dick - "too folky for a country audience and too country for folk", is how Jack Hudson has been described by someone who reviews his records. That could easily explain his lack of bookings. I haven't seen him or heard of him much recently - and I get around - he does not seem to have a web presence or a myspace presence. He doesn't seem to do many gigs at folk clubs so he clearly isn't just ignored by festival but by just about everyone else as well. Remarkable how everyone comes to the same conclusion as far as booking him is concerned. There is a whole festival at Bradfield devoted to traditional singers less than five miles from where I live. About sixty people turned up to listen to them and the festival is supported financially by the organiser out of his own pocket to make sure it continues. He charges £10.00 for the weekend so ticket prices are hardly extortionate and that includes camping. Beer is £1.50 a pint. And sixty people turn up. Four of them were people who had come at my invitation. And another was me. East Anglia Music Trust has traditional singers and dancers. I could go on........ Joan Crump has evolved a slot for traditional singers at Loughborough Festival next year. Shepley Spring Festival will have traditional singers from Sheffield next year too. As far as "most of us" is concerned Jim, - the only way you could legitimately claim you were being ignored by festivals (I would think) is if you are getting tons of bookings elsewhere and still getting ignored by festival organisers OR some festival were booking you and some were ignoring you despite concerted efforts to get bookings by you or your agent. If all festivals are ignoring you then it may just be you. I don't know not knowing what you do or what you sound like. When I was involved in a festival I received dozens of CD's from unknown singer song-writers who have to be especially talented in my opinion to get a look in. I have to tell you most people ignore them as I did. I also received loads of CD's and promotion material from solo singers, bands and groups. When I asked when and were I could see them sometimes I got a reply. Some never bothered. One duo put on a special performance. They got booked. Another I travelled miles to see. Their stage presence was nil although their music was reasonable. Tell me would you book a band with nil stage presence for your festival? Anyway it is fairly easy to remedy. Start your own festival. |
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10 Nov 07 - 11:58 AM (#2190528) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST You can easily retire with a million dollars in the bank after a career as a folksinger. Of course you had to have two million dollars in the bank when you started. |
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10 Nov 07 - 12:58 PM (#2190562) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Jim Lad Folkie Dave: You said "As far as "most of us" is concerned Jim, - the only way you could legitimately claim you were being ignored by festivals (I would think) is if you are getting tons of bookings elsewhere and still getting ignored by festival organisers" I can fill my book for the year, in one week. Easily! I have no idea what it's like in Britain right now but I can tell you that, with just a few exceptions in The Maritimes, Folk Festival line-ups bear very little resemblance to any folk night, anywhere in this country. Two or three big festival bands take most of the top spots plus a couple of home grown entertainers or bigger names coming over from Scotland. Follow that up with a bunch of Bongo Ensembles and you've pretty well got what is now called a folk festival. Don't be surprised if the final act on a Saturday night is just bad rock and roll. Gone are the days when you could expect to hear a full line-up of folk singers and folk musicians. As for your thinly veiled insult about me possibly not being good enough.... entirely uncalled for! |
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10 Nov 07 - 01:10 PM (#2190568) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Richard Bridge I can't comment on how good you are live, Jim Lad, but the rest is right on the money.... PS - VERY bad ROcknROll sometimes... |
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10 Nov 07 - 01:40 PM (#2190586) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Richard Bridge PS, I seem to have lostyour myspace - what is it? |
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10 Nov 07 - 01:53 PM (#2190593) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Big Al Whittle I said you COULD start a thread like this - I didn't say it was a great idea. Personally I often wonder about the people in the Ian Campbell folk Group - Ian, Lorna, Brian Clark, Colin Tommis (I know Aiden Ford and John have gone.) Talking of John what about his partner in a duo - Geoff Bodenham. Steve Adams from Tamworth and Andy Dwyer. Marc Sullivan - American guy who toured England in the 1960's and palled around with Pete Quin for a while. What about that geezer who was in Mr Fox and wrote songs of huge length? Pete Castle, I seem to run into like every ten years or so. Usually (like me) propping up some lunatic musical enterprise. (Yeh, go on Uncle Al tell us the one about the avant gard playwright who wanted to write a play about Derby in the blitz accompanied all the way through by musicians improvising in 15/17 time!) McNulty out of Peabody and McNulty...... |
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10 Nov 07 - 02:00 PM (#2190599) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Art Thieme As for me, well, I've said it all before. All that can be found here in this Mudcat forum. Art |
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10 Nov 07 - 03:26 PM (#2190650) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST,wordy Brian clark..went back to carpentry and re-fitted the Orient Express carriages. John? John Dunkerley? He was never Geoff Bodenham's partner. He joined Harvey Andrews as his accompanist until he sadly died a year later. Bodenham was one of a duo "1812".They split many years ago. Geoff managed pubs and is now retired in Bridgnorth. |
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10 Nov 07 - 04:27 PM (#2190673) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Big Al Whittle I saw John do a gig with Geoff at the old Blackthorn club. they were pretty damn good together. i think they did a few more. mind you John was great with anybody. a superb accompanist. his plaintive banjo accompaniment on Ian's Unquiet Grave is one of my all time favourite tracks. Geoff was very kind to me - like my wife he got rheumatoid arthritis very early in life. |
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10 Nov 07 - 05:20 PM (#2190730) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: oggie WLD That geezer from Mr Fox was Bob Pegg and he's still around and still working. Storytelling, community arts, some gigs, some commissions etc. Based up in Scotland. Steve |
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10 Nov 07 - 05:42 PM (#2190743) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Bee I'd guess you have to have a very particular combination of qualities to persevere as a professional folk singer/musician - only one of which is being a good folksinger/musician. As an artist, without bragging, I know I'm as good as many who are at the top of the 'paid well for it' heap, though not as good as some. But I don't have the kind of ambition the top o' heapers have, nor the business smarts, nor the dedication to live in the right places and schmooze with the right people and follow the most recent fashion. At times in my life I've envied those people for having the traits I do not; other times I've been a bit scornful of them for sometimes 'selling out'. But for the most part, I just understand that they have been willing to learn and do things I haven't - more power to 'em. I imagine there's a lot of the same dynamic in the folk music world. |
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10 Nov 07 - 07:28 PM (#2190824) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Art Thieme See the thread running now on "shut ins" for insight on why I had to quit. Art |
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10 Nov 07 - 07:51 PM (#2190839) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST,irishenglish Jim Lad-Follow that up with a bunch of Bongo Ensembles and you've pretty well got what is now called a folk festival. Hmm...I take it you might be refering to "World Music." Although I dislike that umbrella term for anything not in your own language, it does encompass folk and traditional music, as well as contemporary music, and should at the least be recognized as such. I understand that YOU might want to attend a festival that is only traditional music of the English/Irish/Scottish/etc. variety, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I think its a little insensitive to refer to a music you don't like as a bunch of bongo players. Not a personal assault, mind you, just an observation. |
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10 Nov 07 - 08:04 PM (#2190846) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Big Al Whittle bodhran clouting traddies .......? bongo bashing hottentots.....? banjo carrying extremists.....? introspecive navel gazing snigger snoggers....? recidivist Childe Molesters.....? Personally I'd ban the lot of 'em. theres too much of that sort of thing. |
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10 Nov 07 - 09:25 PM (#2190878) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy Djembes....? Two a penny.... (doesn't quite rhyme..., but hey, a little bit of bad verse never went amiss on occasions like this....) Why people quit? A fairly common complaint that I've noticed over the years is that the enthusiasm can go. Being a musician, 'professional' or otherwise is intrinsically a creative activity. It has its own rat-race, though..., and too often I have seen the creativity sucked out of an artist by the stresses and impositions they face out there on the road. Most of the people I know started playing music for a living because they loved the music. We changed our lifestyle in order to do that which we love. The road itself has taken many of us. But there is quite a lot of disillusionment out there.... .... touch wood... B. |
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10 Nov 07 - 09:47 PM (#2190887) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Beer Sometimes it is just that they have no more to give and want to go in a different direction. Like maybe marbles or snaring rabbits. Who knows. But we should always remember when we sing one of their songs to tell the listening audience who wrote it and as much history as we can to pass that history on. Because folk music in a lot of ways reflect things from the past,present and future. Beer (adrien) |
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10 Nov 07 - 10:23 PM (#2190901) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Jim Lad "World Music" My arse! |
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11 Nov 07 - 12:48 AM (#2190949) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker i quit before i started .. easier to cope with critics & disapointment that way... though i reserve the right to start up afresh again after i retire... |
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11 Nov 07 - 04:09 AM (#2191003) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Big Al Whittle Yes I understand that, Tim. The same twee observations in the same hackneyed way, and they make a virtue of it by calling it a tradtion. So when you look for the language of your own world, its not there. You try to speak the language of your world and it sounds odd and unlyrical - because it is there to describe people and situations -not to luxuriate in a warm bath of nostalgia about a place and time that probably never existed. I hope you don't quit, my friend. |
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11 Nov 07 - 05:29 AM (#2191026) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Colin Randall My days as a floor singer are best forgotten. But in whimsical mood at Salut! Live(link offered in case anyone interested)I offered a variation of the theme of this thread: the one-off semi pro experience that's woeful enough to put you off for life. It certainly worked for me. |
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11 Nov 07 - 06:42 AM (#2191053) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Big Al Whittle Nice one Colin! Actually it doesn't get a lot better than that. You have a war story to tell. Those ones stick in your mind better than the other stuff. Gigging pubs is more fun - you set off, you have an adventure - if you get them up dancing they become more uninhibited. The hardware is more exciting and nails the buggers in their seats. And to be honest - its folkmusic, for real folks. you should have stuck with it. we need more Leonard Cohen to infuse the tradition with a bit of cheeriness! |
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11 Nov 07 - 02:56 PM (#2191366) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Richard Bridge I have seen a band at a festival, quite well up the running order, that was indeed a couple of Highland Great Pipes and many djembes. Not much need for a PA rig, and not indeed a huge difference between the different numbers. |
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11 Nov 07 - 03:38 PM (#2191403) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Folkiedave Jim Lad, I do not know the festival scene in the Maritimes but if you can "fill your book for a year then in one week. Easily!" then you are doing immeasureably better than virtually any professional folksinger in this country except the very highly popular and sometimes not even then. Depends I suppose - they could all fill their books for by playing for nothing of course but I am sure that is NOT what you meant. Why do you want to do festivals with a full booking diary? Is the money that much better than the gigs you are already doing? I really don't understand? I feel I am missing something in the difference between your "scene" and ours. Why not name these three bands and let's judge for ourselves from their gig lists. Richard name the band - I don't see the problem if you can defend you description as the truth. And if you can't and they recognise the description anyway..........:-) The best band I saw this year as Top of the Bill was Kathryn Tickell. Pure tunes without singing for 1 hour 30 minutes. Hardly rock and roll. My top of the bill artists this year included two singles (Vin Garbutt and Roy Bailey, two duos Spiers and Boden and Simon Mayor and Hilary James and some bands as above. To BEE. I guess that is about right. |
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11 Nov 07 - 03:48 PM (#2191411) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy What's the difference between a large pizza and a professional musician? A large pizza will comfortably feed a family of 4.... B. |
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11 Nov 07 - 04:01 PM (#2191417) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Richard Bridge OK: Soar Patrol |
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11 Nov 07 - 05:12 PM (#2191488) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: The Sandman Folkie Dave. Why not name these three bands and let's judge for ourselves from their gig lists.QUOTE.you are confusing popularity with quality. The best band I saw this year as Top of the Bill was Kathryn Tickell. Pure tunes without singing for 1 hour 30 minutes. Hardly rock and roll.QUOTE Yes, but nothing to do with folksinging. your personal top of the bill,just tells us about your taste ,nothing else. Generally speaking,at least 80 per cent[there are a few exceptions],folk festivals have become a Pot Pourri,a musical jamboree. The purpose seems to be to put bums on seats,and pander to the next commercial pop/folk trend,these unfortunates a few years later are discarded,when the next so called exciting act comes along. Groups/ singers,become throw away commodoties,who can be replaced,by the next hyped[wondersinger /band],all that appears to matter is finding a new wonderact each year. moreover most festivals[in the UK] take place,in complete isolation and do not involve the local community at all. |
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11 Nov 07 - 05:34 PM (#2191515) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Santa The local community are able to turn up if they want to. Folk festivals are not exactly held in secret, they are advertised locally, they do tend to occupy local pubs, and the dancers dance down the street. But I'm not quite sure what this has to do with the thread. Are you suggesting that folksingers quit because of barriers put up to prevent locals attending festivals? |
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11 Nov 07 - 06:10 PM (#2191540) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Jim Lad Santa: It was I who suggested that if folk entertainers knew that they could get the opportunity to play main stage at summer festivals then they would have one more reason to stick around rather than switch over to the hospitality industry as I and many others have done. Folkie Dave. Not like you to pop in and out without reading the whole thread. Maybe put on your favourite Battlefield Band album for background music while you read through it. |
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12 Nov 07 - 02:53 AM (#2191738) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Richard Bridge Well, for the benefit of the snipers in the long grass, I've been to have a listen at some of Jim Lad's stuff I can trace on the internet. Not a representative sample - I got bored with the downloading! I tend to excessive bluntness and to being hypercritical, so read the following in that knowledge. While what Jim does is not my preferred style (it is mostly Irish and some Scottish) it presents the songs very well. Jim has a very pleasant voice in the gentler Irish style (the style could be simply the accidents of the tracks I listened to) and conveys the narrative extremely well. I also sense a real emotional connection to the lyricism of rural Irish song. I think Cap'n Birdseye would approve. It might however work better in the small venue, the pub back room, rather than the big stage. The big stage tends to demand the flash, the razzle-dazzle, the grand gesture, rather than narration. I didn't see that, and I preferred what I did see for the absence of it. |
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12 Nov 07 - 04:30 AM (#2191763) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Folkiedave Why not name these three bands and let's judge for ourselves from their gig lists.QUOTE.you are confusing popularity with quality. The best band I saw this year as Top of the Bill was Kathryn Tickell. Pure tunes without singing for 1 hour 30 minutes. Hardly rock and roll.QUOTE Yes, but nothing to do with folksinging. your personal top of the bill,just tells us about your taste ,nothing else. Generally speaking,at least 80 per cent[there are a few exceptions],folk festivals have become a Pot Pourri,a musical jamboree. Dick I see you are back to the old ways of making assertions with no evidence to back them up. Which folk festivals have you been to where this happens? Was this a nationwide survey or limited to England - or Ireland or what? Or is it as we both know - simply a personal opinion with no real evidence to substantiate it. To say Kathryn Tickell who is a fiddle player has nothing to do with folk singing is to state the bleeding obvious. Now rephrase that and say she has nothing to do with folk MUSIC. To my mind holding a large audience of 800 simply with traditional (or traditional style) tunes and minimal chat over a 90 minute period is an achievement to be proud of. Shame she is not a singer I suppose. Finally to say festivals do not involve the local community is nonsense. That may be the case where you live but most festivals go out of their way to involve the local community. Amongst other things it can be a source of funding and having the local people on your side is absolutely imperative. |
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12 Nov 07 - 04:54 AM (#2191769) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: The Sandman Folkie Dave. Stop putting words into my mouth. I said 80percent,NO,I havent done a survey ,and I may be exaggerating,but most folk festivals are attended by folk enthusiasts,who are not local[do you agree ].most events at folk festivals,are attended by folk enthusiasts,who have travelled to get there. Folk festivals are generally speaking not community festivals.[and you know it. Kathryn Tickell,is a fine folk musician. |
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12 Nov 07 - 05:15 AM (#2191780) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Folkiedave Well here are the words you wrote Dick. moreover most festivals[in the UK] take place,in complete isolation and do not involve the local community at all Dick it just isn't true. Most folk festivals do involve their local community for the reasons I have already pointed out. It is often in the form of reduced price admission; they involve them as stewards; they involve them in things like community choirs; and they involve them through local schoolchildren for which they can get grants. Two festivals I can think of do ALL of those things. The local community supports the festival with small scale sponsorship. Locals come to dances, watch street activities and enjoy sessions - mostly. Some towns rely on festivals for tourist income - or does that not count as local? Some schools do well out of holding a festival on their grounds or does that not count as local? Try taking away Shepley Spring Festival from the local cricket club and see how far you get! They are not "community festivals". Of course they aren't it is a different sort of festival. Where I live there isn't a Walkley Folk Festival (though there is a community festival) so of course I have to travel. Same applies to most people. If people did not travel to folk festivals then the artists would not need to travel either. Is that what you are advocating? Rant over. |
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12 Nov 07 - 05:20 AM (#2191784) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Folkiedave I missed this bit. Again I quote your own words. I said 80percent,NO,I havent done a survey ,and I may be exaggerating So the figure of 80% is one you made up? Good that you admit it. It isn't that you are exaggerating Dick it is just based on nothing whatsoever and thus has no real value. You are of course entitled to your opinion - as ever so long - as you make it clear it is your opinion and nothing more and does not have spurious statistics like 80%. |
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12 Nov 07 - 05:23 AM (#2191785) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Folkiedave That should read: You are of course entitled to your opinion - as ever - so long as you make it clear it is your opinion and nothing more and does not have spurious statistics like 80%. |
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12 Nov 07 - 05:49 AM (#2191793) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Richard Bridge Surely the captain is right that most "big stage" folk festivals neither draw many artists nor many audience from their locales. Ely and Broadstairs do have the Morris sides out to the local streets, and Broadtsars and Sidders have music (alas in the case of Broadstairs mostly not folk music) in the local pubs. Likewise Deal is a street festival, largely. But even Tenterden (again, lots of street dance) has most of the concerts in places where the local public will be much in a minority. Miskin did try very hard to keep a local element to booked guests, but alas at present it is not, hope as we may for it to rise like a phoenix from the ashes. The campus festivals by their very nature charge for site admission, which means that the passing local will not be in attendance, and to suggest that stewards are motly drawn from local folk would I think be abold assertion. Many festivals advertise across the country for stewards, and from across the country they come. |
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12 Nov 07 - 06:12 AM (#2191807) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST,Sparkles I started following this thread because its supposed to be about why people should give up doing something they love. Can we get off this festivals kick or make another thread about it? |
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12 Nov 07 - 08:06 AM (#2191866) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST,Edthefolkie Some of 'em get dysphonia, hysterical or otherwise. Some become alcoholics - not difficult on the UK folk circuit I would think! Some of 'em aren't businesslike. They should emulate people like John Kirkpatrick, already mentioned in this thread. I was incredibly impressed with John's merchandising operation at our village hall a few years ago - before, after and at half time out came the CDs AND a battery plastic card reader! He had about 30 quid off me in two shakes of a lamb's wotsit - and good for him. |
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12 Nov 07 - 08:53 AM (#2191889) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Grab FolkieDave, if only 60 people turn up to a festival dedicated to traditional singing, the possible conclusions are one or more of the following:- 1) the festival wasn't well organised or publicised. 2) the festival was charging too much (unlikely from the sound of it!) 3) there aren't enough people interested in traditional singing to fill a festival If the answer is (3), which I honestly think is the case, then the answer is simple - your chosen field of performance is an extreme niche market and as such is not economically viable. At the other end of the spectrum, I suspect bands playing death metal and experimental jazz have similar problems - what they do may be pushing the boundaries of mainstream taste, and it may be very good in its genre, but that doesn't mean you'll get folk through the door. Graham. |
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12 Nov 07 - 11:42 AM (#2191996) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Jim Lad Richard: The address I gave you was for my space where you will find 4 home recordings. They are gentle and three of them are my own. They are however "Home Recordings". You will find more at my home page . As for my live performances. I can handle any stage. Like most good soloists, I am as much a comedian and story teller as I am a singer. I'll have the whole audience singing by the end of the second song (on a bad night) and when I deliver a message, you can hear a pin drop. To coin a phrase: I can hold them in the palm of my hand Easily! Now isn't that just what a folk entertainer is supposed to do. I cannot be a band but if counting microphone stands is what you're into...... No problem with your being blunt but to measure me as a performer by listening to a few songs I recorded in my basement is wrong of you. It does however point to exactly what the festival organizers are doing. Think I'll go buy myself a yellow toga & bongo drum. |
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12 Nov 07 - 11:43 AM (#2191998) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Jim Lad Sorry: Two of them are my own. I forgot what was on there. |
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12 Nov 07 - 11:47 AM (#2192000) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Jim Lad Grab: The answer is "3) there aren't enough people interested in traditional singing to fill a festival" which takes us back to the original question... Why do we quit? |
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12 Nov 07 - 12:57 PM (#2192040) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: The Sandman I take no heed of Folkie Dave,waffling on about surveys,of course he hasnt done any himself,. He is far too busy watching Sheffield United,murdering the beautiful game. |
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12 Nov 07 - 01:13 PM (#2192053) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Folkiedave I take no heed of Folkie Dave,waffling on about surveys,of course he hasnt done any himself You are right Dick I haven't. The difference is that I didn't claim to know the results of any. As far as Sheffield United are concerned. I have seen them play nine times this season and the reserves twice. Under the new management of Brian Robson and Brian Kidd they are trying to get the ball down a play football as it ought to be played. They are improving, currently the form team of the Championship. COYRAWW! (Come on you red and white wizards). Sorry for the thread drift. |
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12 Nov 07 - 01:41 PM (#2192071) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: The Sandman with Bryan Robson as manager they havent a chance,He has failed everywhere he has been.ask some Middlesborough fans. Red and White wizards,have you been at the Fly Agaric. |
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12 Nov 07 - 02:21 PM (#2192102) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Richard Bridge Hey Jim - Easy Tiger - I said I liked it (even if it wasn't my genre). I even made the point that I might not have listened to a representative sample. I also made the point that I was hypercritical. May I suggest that you should point people from here at your main site, then we can all form a view? I'm quite happy to revise my opinion if I find material having that effect on me. |
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12 Nov 07 - 02:28 PM (#2192108) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Richard Bridge The m3u files seem not to play the mp3 files unless there is something I have not figured out. |
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12 Nov 07 - 02:45 PM (#2192120) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: JedMarum ... well it's tough jumping into this discussion so late, but this is a subject near and dear to my heart. I worked part-time at music for years in the 70's and 80's. I rekindled my interest in music and performing in the late 90's. Bought a beautiful Larrivee guitar, starting playing clubs and festivals and gave up my dayjob in Jan 2000. It hasn't been easy - but I've made it work and I even had to pay income tax the last two or three years (a dubious milestone yes - but one sign of "progress in America"). Having said that - I cannot tell you how many times I wish I could quit! The world of "folk" music, well it just isn't a very big pie! But I am determine and committed. So I slug away. I figure out what I'm doing wrong and try to fix it. I'm figure out what I'm doing right and try to improve it. I figure out the places where I cannot be successful and I try to stay away from them. It is tough when venues that you know would be excellent for you don't give you the time of day - but I understand, They are swamped with quality acts - and they probably don;t need you! That doesn't stop me from trying - but it does make realize I just have to find another way in. I don;t know what the answer is - I'm still working my ass off just trying to keep it going. BUT I do love what I'm doing! |
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12 Nov 07 - 02:46 PM (#2192121) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Jim Lad I'm sure there's something you haven't figured out. Try not to read "Tone" into my response. There's no anger there. Back to the point though. Why do folk singers quit. Many of us switch over to the Hospitality Industry, simply because the Folk Circuit cannot support us. I could play every single week-end at one or two different folk clubs who would gladly welcome me back in 18 months. I'd be working for what they can afford, living in some of the saddest excuses for billets (on occasion) and be constantly on the road. CD sales would amount to 10% of the audience, on the west coast and rising to about 20% the farther east I go. I'd be a household name among folkies, broke and alone. The Hotel, pub, restaurant industry pays more and regularly without the need for so much travel. Outdoor markets are also extremely lucrative and in most cases I sell more than the vendors do as well as getting paid for it. Not a difficult decision for me at all. |
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12 Nov 07 - 02:56 PM (#2192129) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Jim Lad Jed is a perfect example of what I was discussing. I have noted in the past that he keeps a very busy summer schedule, travels extensively and plays Highland Games venues as well as Irish festivals. (If you can please the Scots, you can please anyone) I imagine that the few days he's not travelling to and from, are spent trying to get stock ready and make contacts for future work. Not a lot of time for anything else. Tough going but lots of fun. Congratulations on the "Tax" thing, Jed. Been there, got the "T" Shirt. |
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12 Nov 07 - 03:05 PM (#2192137) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST,irishenglish Sorry for my part in thread drift, but I think Captain, you answered your own question with your original post-economics, and as others have noted as well, the distance between gigs and the economic factors that creates. As to why, I can only guess as a nonperformer the demoralizing you might get from a gig you have drawn attention to and still only get 20 people to show up, 5 of them being friends.I know I have been to my fair share of those over the years.Even clubs here in the states that are organized, have newsletters with upcoming shows, good websites,etc you think might help, but sometimes, its all for nothing, and if you've just driven in a van with no airconditioning from Maine to New York (as Kathryn Tickell told me had happened at her NY gig a few years back) and no one shows up, its got to be hard. BTW, I'm glad to say that at least in Kathryn's case, lots of people did show up, but then opening for Maddy Prior may have helped as well! So for the prevention of this happening, I wish I could tell you, but all I can do is go to as many gigs as I can, whether the results are good or not. Cheers |
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12 Nov 07 - 04:37 PM (#2192191) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Richard Bridge I was trying to be very "even keel" about that response... Still am.... |
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12 Nov 07 - 04:46 PM (#2192195) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: JedMarum NO Guest - I believe there is no cause for alarm. It is not appropriate to say say RIP full time touring folkies. I think my point is; it's hard but it's possible. I'm doing it. Anything worth having is worth working hard to obtain. I'm at the bottom of the full time folkie barrel - lots of more talented folks do better. As difficult as it is - I wouldn't trade places with anyone - and I still love what I'm doing. I just winge a little, from time-to-time! ;-) |
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12 Nov 07 - 05:13 PM (#2192218) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy I'm turning work down in my neck of the woods, in Ireland, too .... In fact, I turn down more than I actually play. If you're looking at it as purely a business transaction, if you do a decent enough job the first time around, the repeat business should come of itself. I'm no 'big name', but I still only work 8 months a year. Quite a lot of it has to do with planning; just like any other business. B. |
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12 Nov 07 - 06:45 PM (#2192301) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy "...Not if the business has closed down in the mean time." No doubt. But doesn't demand outstrip supply? I've been asked to play pubs & clubs in England, (London, Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Cornwall....) but so far I haven't gotten around to it. There are good venues out there (it takes a fairly large pizza to feed a family of four, these days), but if I lived in England..., judging by the offers of work..., I could manage a family of 3! .... if she worked, the options would rise considerably.... B. |
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12 Nov 07 - 07:02 PM (#2192310) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy Look..., people quit for all sorts of different reasons. I feel like quitting on average about twice a year. If music is your life, then you make you own way. You diversify, you play with different people. You take what you do seriously! Just as you would if you traded stocks all day. Call it a job, call it a passion. That is your call! Take the rough with the smooth, and grow with it, or question why you're in this game, at all. B. |
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12 Nov 07 - 07:21 PM (#2192323) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Folkiedave Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST Date: 12 Nov 07 - 05:08 PM Mind you, most Mudcat folkies will neither notice nor mind. The pro is some kind of a criminal to many here, who boast about never going to see concerts at festivals, and never booking guests at their clubs - because it's their music innit, and they don't need no high and mighty experts I am not sure that "most" is right but I do agree with your general sentiment. There are a fair number and I have disagreed with them on here on a number of occasions. However some people do make it. Bella Hardy; Devil's Interval; Lisa Knapp; Kerfuffle; Last Orders; Damien O'Kane and Shona Kipling; Spiers and Boden, Mawkin:Causley,; Hekety/Crucible have all served their time. Seth Lakeman was an overnight success at 28 or so having played publicly since he was about 14. alf of Waterson;Carthy is 60+; Vin is now over 60; Roy Bailey is about 70; I could point to others whose ages are not so well-known, BUT - if they are a draw and people come and see them they will go on. |
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12 Nov 07 - 07:33 PM (#2192333) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Jim Lad Brendy: - I think we're both looking at the question a little differently. You're talking about Pub gigs and I thought the question was more about folk gigs. I made the switch years ago and have done less & less Folk Club gigs as the years go by. I'll agree with most of what you say but have to add that the Folk Scene is a completely different game when it comes to return gigs & money. |
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12 Nov 07 - 07:34 PM (#2192335) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy I'm not patronising you. I, personally, have not been exposed to the downside of it. It begs the question, though: "Why fly a guy from Denmark (or Norway), put him up in a decent B&B, feed him, give him a decent enough fee, and fly him back, when there's a similar artist living 50 miles away?" And to be willing to do this every 9 weeks? Beats me.... B. |
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12 Nov 07 - 07:36 PM (#2192337) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy I'm talking about both, Jim. I have a number of different sets, depending on the venue. B. |
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12 Nov 07 - 07:40 PM (#2192340) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Leadfingers Look at the 'Stealing Gigs' thread ! There is NOT enough CASH in Folk Clubs these days - Most of my Gigs now are Corporate Entertainment , NOT Folk Clubs ! |
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12 Nov 07 - 07:43 PM (#2192344) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Forsh I know how the audience not enjoying you can get you down, and I was just starting out! It took a few years (about 20) to get over it, but I will always have happy memories of 700 or so holiday makers joining in when I got up to do my party piece! Also the fun I have had just busking or entertaining mates at a party. What do I do now? Well, I organise clennell Hall folk Festivalin northumberland! (day job I work in supported housing, where I also run a 'guitar club'!) I gues that in folk it is hard to fill clubs with punters who will pay the fee which represents the actual value of the act. Heck, If I can get to se one or two decent acts a year, at £10 - 20 each + travel + drink 7 food, then I am well pleased! Also, there are some great semi pro acts on the circut, in northumbria region I can think of loads, all who are regularly on the regional circut, and can be enjoyed for around £5 door enrtance. As an organiser I baulk at hearing someone ask for £350+ cos I know that the venue would struggle to attract, "can we pull in 50? then that'll be £7 a head!" There are no guarentees, of course, but one act who charged that price v 'a certain % of the door', made just that, and I later heared from a 'representative' that they were a bit disapointed with that! Great act, mind you, but cant aford to hire again! Some of us are disadvantaged by location you know! |
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12 Nov 07 - 07:50 PM (#2192354) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST,Not the other Guest Brendy whether you mean to or not you do come across as patronising. You say you could manage fine in England but you haven't actually tried it have you? Come over and support yourself for a year in the folk scene and then preach to us*. Anon has been there. You haven't. *That is, if you could get the gigs. Not because you're not good enough but because they're N O T T H E R E. Get it? |
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12 Nov 07 - 07:58 PM (#2192366) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy I've been supporting myself on the folk scene for over 30 years. It's a life, mate. You either do it, or you don't. B. |
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12 Nov 07 - 08:10 PM (#2192373) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST,N.t.o.g. Not here you haven't. So ease up on the platitudes. |
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12 Nov 07 - 08:27 PM (#2192384) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy D'ya see that gig every 9 weeks? That was indefinite. I have 5 such offers in England alone. 3 Pubs & 2 Folk Clubs. I could live there handy enough. I could also live here or Ireland, handy enough. ... and commute. I know what I'm talking about too. B. |
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12 Nov 07 - 08:49 PM (#2192394) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy It is if you know what you're talking about. Why? B. |
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12 Nov 07 - 08:57 PM (#2192399) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: JedMarum I see a big shift in the US venues ... I can make it work because I keep trying new things and playing different kinds of venues. In truth I work anywhere I can get paid and too many where I don't. My main interest in playing is still concerts ... that's the kind of "entertainment" I do best. The truth is I am NOT a personality entertainer, not a humorist, not a virtuoso ... but I have some of each of those elements. IF people are entertained by my show it is because they have an interest in the kind of music I play - and they are "entertained" by the music. As a performer, I'd have to say I'm a musician (not an entertainer). That is the basic weaknesses I've had to work on - and frankly still need to work on. In order to make a living, I've had to develop other kinds of shows (beyond concerts). I play some where I do very few of my own songs (usually Pubs) and I play some shows where I do almost nothing but my own songs. Especially this time of year - I feel like my day job is a Pub singer. I don't mean to put down pubs. I actually enjoy doing them, most of the time - but it's not what I'm best at - and I've had to work hard to be as good as I am. So I see it as both a way to make money and a way to force me to develop as an "entertainer." We have one of the very best entertainers in the world here at Mudcat ... and that is Seamus Kennedy. He is both a fine singer/musician and a first rate humorist. Seamus is the perfect entertainer in one package. It seems to just roll from him when he's on-stage, but I know how hard I've worked to develop my show ... so I suspect he works at least as hard. As the music scene changes, I assume it is my task to change with it, and maybe even be lucky enough to change ahead of it. I've always been interested in history and wrote a few songs inspired by history - and I've accidentally fallen into a bit of a music niche there - mostly CD and MP3 sales - but I do a few shows every year that pay well. I push stuff out onto Myspace and Youtube - and I sell CDs and MP3s through CDBaby. Each of these sites has provide some benefit - CDBaby especially through real income - but the others give me demo sites, promo facilities and have helped me make meaningful music connections. I have struggled with festival growth - as a solo performer and a balladeer I find fewer and fewer festivals have those kind of slots. The shift there has been toward the big fat sound of kick-ass trad based bands - and toward the even bigger and fatter sounds of the hard Celtic rock bands. So I've been booking some festivals with various band configurations, tapping some very talented friends for band members as needed. I've also stumbled into TV and film work. None of that's paid well, yet - but it helps on the resume (CV) and provides real advertising. I do have one film possible for next year that will actually earn me something if it goes. I won't hold my breath, but I will keep my fingers crossed. Anyway - as I struggle through this music business, I keep trying to find new ways to make it work. |
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12 Nov 07 - 09:06 PM (#2192402) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy Although based in Denmark for the past year, my 'home' over here (and where I pay my taxes) for the past 13 years is Oslo, Norway. This is a huge country of only 5 million people, where alcohol is among the most expensive in the world..., and it's illegal to advertise it. You're singing in English (or Irish) to people whose only connection with the song is the soul you put into it. England's a dawdle, mate, believe me. B. |
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12 Nov 07 - 09:17 PM (#2192404) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST,chas Believe you WHY, exactly? You don't play there. So how do you know? |
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12 Nov 07 - 09:26 PM (#2192411) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy I've been asked to, and taking into account renting a house, car lease, etc, I could live & work quite easily there. I don't want to, however. B. |
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13 Nov 07 - 12:23 AM (#2192461) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: M.Ted I apologize for moving back to topic;-) For my part, I stopped the singing thing(but not the playing music thing) for mostly health reasons. I was and am prone to respiratory ailments, and in several consecutive years, I was unable to sing for long periods of time. Finally, a good opportunity, that I had spend a long time setting up fell through because my voice was gone at a critical time. I knew it was time to hang up the singing and just play. Wedding bells and subsequent obligations have taken their toll on that, as well. |
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13 Nov 07 - 12:40 AM (#2192466) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST,Texas Guest Jed Marum - you leave me now more befuddled about this business than I thought. I have always thought that I was at the very "bottom of the barrel," so to speak, yet you insist that you reside there. Comparing what I have done and where I've been to what you have done and where you have been, well, I can't hold a candle to you; so I guess my question is: if you are at the "bottom of the barrel" - where in the hell does that leave me? I guess I must be part of the residue on the bottom plate inside the barrel; oh well, at least I'm in the barrel - I guess. Cheers. |
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13 Nov 07 - 12:55 AM (#2192471) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Big Al Whittle ' have struggled with festival growth - as a solo performer and a balladeer I find fewer and fewer festivals have those kind of slots. ' Shame on you America - he's one of your best! |
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13 Nov 07 - 04:12 AM (#2192508) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST, Anon FPR I got the impression that the removed guest was talking about clubs not pubs, Brendy. You can certainly make a living doing pub gigs in the UK if you want to. But very few UK pros do pub gigs - they are just too noisy for the material we've developed for our core market. There's not usually enough respect for that stuff to work properly in a pub, so you can't do your 'proper' material. You have to belt out crowd-pleasers, which is ok if you want the gig badly enough. I've done it, and done it for too long. I'm not going back to that (never mind the PA humping, the drunks and the rude bar staff). This thread is, I think, mainly about the club and festival circuit (where crowd-pleasing material is not usually required). Different game. If you came to the UK as an unknown and tried to make a living in the folk clubs... well, try it and see - I may be wrong, but you'd need to work very very very hard, and do a lot of gigs for nowt to get started - so bring enough dosh to keep you for six months. I'm considered to be pretty good and pretty well-known - and I've been doing it for decades. I work flat out, covering every angle I can think of all the time, and yet I don't make enough to trouble the tax man. Dave said "Bella Hardy; Devil's Interval; Lisa Knapp; Kerfuffle; Last Orders; Damien O'Kane and Shona Kipling; Spiers and Boden, Mawkin:Causley,; Hekety/Crucible have all served their time." Note the past tense. How many are now full-time club only pros with no day-jobs? And how many will still be doing it (or wanting to do it) in ten years time? As the man/woman said - the days when club touring was a proper job are over. |
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13 Nov 07 - 05:53 AM (#2192553) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: SimonS "Bella Hardy; Devil's Interval; Lisa Knapp; Kerfuffle; Last Orders; Damien O'Kane and Shona Kipling; Spiers and Boden, Mawkin:Causley,; Hekety/Crucible have all served their time. " Interesting, why do you say that? Amongst the people you've listed, there are a few who are amongst the hardest working people around, a couple who do a reasonably large amount of gigs, and a few who have most certainly not "served their time" in any accepted sense (one of whom you can count the amount of professional gigs on the fingers of one hand). Its amazing what a little publicity will do for you... The only people you mentioned who don't have jobs other than gigs are Spiers and Boden, and up until a couple of years ago John Spiers was still managing The Music Room in Oxford at the same time as touring. |
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13 Nov 07 - 06:54 AM (#2192573) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: oggie I wonder just how many full-time performers there actually are on the UK folk scene? Even many who we would generally class as full-time make a portion of their income (in some cases a large portion) from non folk circuit activity. The notion of "serving your time" and becoming full-time I think is now past it's sell by date (it it was ever in date). I don't think that the UK folk cicuit can support, on a year round basis, more than a handful of full-time performers, the majority will have to develop a range of activities that they can offer in different spheres. All the best Steve |
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13 Nov 07 - 08:18 AM (#2192618) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy As a guy who cut his teeth in the folk clubs up and down Ireland in the '70, AnonFPR, I certainly need no proof that the folk club scene has gone plummeting over the years. The English folk-club scene is no different What I do is about the bottom limit of what an 'Irish Pub' would consider 'Irish'. ... which is why I stay away from most of them. The pubs I play are generally small little folk clubs in themselves. I have long left behind the 4 one-hour sets on a Friday & Saturday night, (different craic in Europe, lads...) except I have another musician (at least) with me. I would qualify all I said about being able to live & work as a full-time musician in England, with the comment that I never have limited myself to having to 'survive' off one country alone. Not that I couldn't do it. But not knowing my personal financial status, no-one can gainsay me, neither. As I said earlier, it is a life, and you create your own good luck. 'Serving your time' is just getting to know the business What I'm trying to streamline at the minute is the '6 months in Ireland - 6 months in Scandinavia, which is why the hypothetical question of whether or not I could live in England as a full-time muso is heavily rhetorical. I sympathise with musicians who can't get their art out there. But networking is very important. I got those offers of almost residency gigs by people I met on the road over here; I didn't cold-call them. They came up to me. I gave them my card with web address, mobile number, and a wee CD to throw behind the bar. Goodwill is a word I haven't noticed mentioned on the thread, yet. The folk scene needs all it can get. I get by. B. |
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13 Nov 07 - 08:45 AM (#2192637) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST, Anon FPR "The pubs I play are generally small little folk clubs in themselves" Not many of them in the UK... "almost residency gigs" Ah. Not clubs at all then. Different game, different rules. |
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13 Nov 07 - 08:53 AM (#2192642) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy Hang on, FPR, you are not reading between the lines, here..., you're not even reading the lines itself... The pubs in England that I have been offered are such. If a venue doesn't interest me, I normally let the people know there and then. The Folk clubs & Pubs concerned have offered me a year's work Different rules? Don't think so. Have a look at The Snail's post on the sister thread, and maybe I think some of you will get a clearer picture. If I couldn't survive on the English Folk Scene, ladies and gentlemen, I would be the first to acknowledge it. B. |
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13 Nov 07 - 09:12 AM (#2192650) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: TheSnail Brendy Have a look at The Snail's post on the sister thread, and maybe I think some of you will get a clearer picture. Not sure that I do. We certainly don't offer anyone a year's work. I don't recognise the sort of venue Brendy is talking about at all. |
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13 Nov 07 - 09:15 AM (#2192652) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy I'm also at a loss to know why one should concentrate only on earning a living in England, Scotland and Wales? In these days of cheap flights, one could safely be playing a festival in Stockholm, Oslo, København, Hamburg, Kiel, one weekend, and back on home turf, Sunday night with a rake of foreign currency in your pocket. That was the basis of my point earlier about diversifying. If folksingers are quitting because of lack of venues in said 3 countries, consider expanding your horizons. One less excuse for having to quit. B. |
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13 Nov 07 - 09:17 AM (#2192653) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy I was referring to you 'booking who you want'. B. |
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13 Nov 07 - 09:24 AM (#2192657) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST, Anon I'm not sure Brendy knows what a UK folk club actually is... Clubs are effectively closed-door semi-formal concerts with an entry fee, Brendy, usually offering a mix of unpaid locals and paid visitors performing. Even the very top names in the land are only ever booked once a year. Not all clubs have paid visitors - but in these no-one gets paid at all. No club in the UK has a paid residency. Session-leading happens, yes (but unlike in Ireland this are quite rare as there's usually no demand for pros to up the ante), pub gigs happen yes (play in the bar, usually free entry, take pot luck with the noise levels), pub concerts in a room at the back with a door chage, yes. But not clubs with a name, a committe, regular members, floor spots, raffles etc, no. |
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13 Nov 07 - 09:27 AM (#2192660) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST, Anon Some of us have families Bendy. Have you tried flying with £12k's worth of instruments that they won't let you take in the cabin - never mind the carbon footprint issue. And how are we supposed to find the gigs? Turn up and busk? |
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13 Nov 07 - 09:39 AM (#2192666) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST,Another anon > If I couldn't survive on the English Folk Scene, ladies and gentlemen, I would be the first to acknowledge it. First you have to acknowledge what the "English folk scene" IS - and I don't believe you really know either. All your blithe dismissals seem merely to underline this. This scene you're so sure you could make a living in reads like some alternative reality to the one you - by your own admission - have no actual experience of. Or is this all a wind-up? > You create your own good luck OK, fine. But you DON'T necessarily create your own bad luck. If bad luck doesn't happen to you, hooray. But PLEASE stop being so I'm-all-right-Jack complacent. |
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13 Nov 07 - 09:40 AM (#2192667) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy Families and full time musicianship can function. But that is very much an issue you must look at, not me If you're worried about carbon footprints, however, you should walk to all your gigs from here out. My instruments (I carry at least 3 wherever I go) are an ongoing negotiation with check-in staff. But as this is also part of my job, I deal with it! How do you find the gigs? Stop sitting on your arse in here complaining about it and use the internet to ask questions about what's out there. Is it your job, or isn't it?????? Anon 09.24: What is a Folk-Club? I'm talking about 9 venues in a landmass that supports 120 million people, once every 9 weeks...., and gorgeous wee gigs they would have been. The venues are there if you look hard enough, and apply a little lateral thinking along the way. B. |
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13 Nov 07 - 09:43 AM (#2192671) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy "First you have to acknowledge what the "English folk scene" IS - and I don't believe you really know either" I know enough about it to be able survive in it, anyway, Anon 09.39. B. |
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13 Nov 07 - 10:02 AM (#2192680) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy ... just spotted this now.... "But PLEASE stop being so I'm-all-right-Jack complacent." Look....., don't misunderstand me. I'm not complacent, neither am I trying to be patronising. Those epithets are usually flung around when an impasse is arrived at. I care very deeply about the folk scene. Part of what drives me over here is to help create a 'scumbag agent-free' zone...., 'cos (and you can believe this)..., there's a lot of people take advantage out there. It's not just a Scandinavian thing; give the wrong kind of person a position of power, and the scene can crumble down around your ears. I could find a dozen other countries that it would be easier for me to operate in, but I choose Norway and Denmark. I do this because I want to help expand the market. I'm the least complacent guy in the World, Guest. I care very much.... B. |
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13 Nov 07 - 10:12 AM (#2192689) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC Brendy ? You say you know enough to survive in it. I could say the same about the Alaskan wilderness but until I had done it we wouldnt know would we? How about at least giving a clue as to the areas these clubs are in that are offering you contracts not available to anyone else. There are no clubs in the NE of England that will do this. Some are booked up at least 12 months in advance. Just because someone on holiday offers you a booking does not mean that it is a 'cert'. I've been offered bookings in Florida, Spain, France etc. but not firm contracts. |
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13 Nov 07 - 10:21 AM (#2192699) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy Look, Black Hawk, you don't know me, and I don't know you. ... so basically, you don't have a balls notion about the circumstances of my meeting with these people. Neither do you have a balls notion if I could survive in my version of your Alaskan wilderness. London, Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Cornwall, Black Hawk. B. |
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13 Nov 07 - 10:22 AM (#2192700) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Peace There ain't too many clubs anywhere where you can count on a gig without something in writing. There are some, however. |
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13 Nov 07 - 10:28 AM (#2192703) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy I contract everything, Bruce. B. |
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13 Nov 07 - 10:30 AM (#2192705) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC Pity our local clubs cant afford to offer you a residency. You are obviously the greatest thing to hit the folk club scene and would give a much needed boost. |
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13 Nov 07 - 10:30 AM (#2192707) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Peace Hi, Brendy. I have one I'm doing in Montreal in january. Done on a 'handshake'. There are about a half dozen people I'd trust to come through. They're all in Montreal. However, your way is wisest. |
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13 Nov 07 - 10:31 AM (#2192708) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST,AA Brendy do you have a website or myspace page or anything posted on the internet? If you do, how about a link? |
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13 Nov 07 - 10:37 AM (#2192710) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy The money is not the issue, Black Hawk.. ... here comes that word again.... GOODWILL I am nothing, mate. I can't stand the sound of my own voice, and I can't listen to my guitar playing without grimacing every so often. I get on with people of like mind, however. .... and I get paid the standard rates. I long for the days when the 'folk clubs' can offer residencies again. There are a few people, though, that are doing it on their own... B. |
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13 Nov 07 - 10:39 AM (#2192712) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy I have one I'm doing in Montreal in january. Done on a 'handshake'" That's when you know your troubles are over, Bruce. I have a number of friends over the years that I have never actively discussed money with, at all. I do have a website, AA, but it's crap. B. |
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13 Nov 07 - 10:43 AM (#2192714) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST,AA Really? Why? Websites are an essential professional tool for gigging musicians. How come you don't update it? Can we see it anyway? |
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13 Nov 07 - 10:45 AM (#2192717) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC Brendy - I am being quite serious. I know of no performers on the UK folk scene who would be offered a contracted series of bookings repeated 3 monthly in our local folk clubs. In the NE a performer is lucky to be booked twice a year at the same club. Anyone who is capable of gaining this status MUST be worth seeing IMO. |
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13 Nov 07 - 10:55 AM (#2192721) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy Look..., please, Black Hawk..., we're actually defining 'folk-clubs', nearly, at this stage. This whole subject should be a thread in itself; the original subject has morphed into why folk-singers give it up, into a few of you trying to look up my arse... give it up, lads.... AA... Log in and send me PM, and I'll be delighted to send you a link B. |
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13 Nov 07 - 11:01 AM (#2192728) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST,AA Why don't you want to post one? Web pages are supposed to be public |
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13 Nov 07 - 11:04 AM (#2192730) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Peace That is NOT your business. Not yesterday, not today and not tomorrow. |
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13 Nov 07 - 11:47 AM (#2192749) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy They are public, AA. They are normally placed on what is called the World Wide Web. Do a google search for "Gigs in Scandinavia" (if it's your job..., and you want to get on in your chosen profession) You'll probably see my site in your travels. I only advertise my site to interested parties. B. |
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13 Nov 07 - 11:56 AM (#2192754) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) Brendy - where's this fantastic folk venue in Manchester? It doesn't sound like any of the ones I'm familiar with (and there's not exactly many!). I'd love to visit it. PM me if you want to keep it quiet for any reason. Cheers Nigel |
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13 Nov 07 - 12:09 PM (#2192767) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) Hmmm.... lateral thinking here - are we talking about gigs in Irish theme pubs, Brendy? |
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13 Nov 07 - 12:14 PM (#2192773) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy No thinking, Nigel...., read the thread. "It doesn't sound like any of the ones I'm familiar with" Not my problem... Get out there and find them. B. |
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13 Nov 07 - 12:32 PM (#2192795) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) My last comment on this, Brendy, before I go to do somthing useful like cooking tea whilst listening to folk music by people who WANT other people to listen to and enjoy their work. You're a performer (you claim). I'm a folk music fan (read: customer). Yet for some undisclosed reason you want to keep venues where you might be playing secret from me. Fantastic business sense... what people usually do is say, for example, 'yeah, they've started putting gigs on at (insert venue name). Fancy checking it out?' How strange. My conclusion: you're just a wind up merchant and little of what you've said should be taken seriously. People usually don't mind evidencing their claims. Cheers Nigel |
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13 Nov 07 - 12:42 PM (#2192805) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy I don't have anything to prove, Nigel, that's why 'evidencing' my claim isn't important to me. These venues I'm talking about are already up and running. The 'customer' may not notice anything different; I'm more talking about the venue owners and the deal they give musicians. I will only recommend artists to them, if they fill the criteria of being a decent enough skin and good at what they do. The customer need not worry. The standard is always attained.... B. |
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13 Nov 07 - 01:42 PM (#2192855) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Jim Lad I think Jed has given an extremely accurate account of where he's at and that's really about as far as you can go without crossing over to the hospitality industry. Nicely done! I'm addicted to three square meals a day for me and my family. To accommodate this addiction, I and others like me have basically crossed over to pubs, clubs & restaurants but there is good news. Those who really enjoy listening to folk music, frequent all of the places I play. They just get to sit on comfier seats and I get paid more, that's all. |
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13 Nov 07 - 01:48 PM (#2192862) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Jim Lad Wouldn't be smart to post your web-site on this thread. I hope you will once we get to know you a little better though. There are some here who could probably help you with a web-site design or you could just use MySpace. Many do. Cheers! Jim |
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13 Nov 07 - 01:56 PM (#2192867) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: PoppaGator I've seen Brendy's webpage; a year or two (or more) ago, he was perfectly willing to provide a link here at Mudcat, as part of a dicussion of some song or arrangement for which he had posted some very well-made guitar tablature. |
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13 Nov 07 - 01:58 PM (#2192870) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy I don't mind posting my website at Mudcat. I wont be cajoled into doing it, though. B. |
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13 Nov 07 - 02:22 PM (#2192892) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST,Warwick Slade Very intersting thread but, as usual, it seems to have been hijacked onto other agendas. Anyway, as to the original question 'why prof folksingers quit?' I have just taken a look at my 'Folk Directory 1970' and there is listed about 350 folk clubs nationwide. There are only 230 odd acts listed. If this is a representative sample it seems it needs about one and a half clubs to support one folk act. If the clubs decrease (and we know they have-read other threads) the demend for folk acts also decreases. I think it is called supply and demand. Why did I quit? No demand in the first place! |
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13 Nov 07 - 03:06 PM (#2192913) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: synbyn Excellent pedigree, Brendy, but with the greatest respect not typical of the outlets in which many Catters perform- you've got a niche and obviously a profitable one. Those of us from Southern England don't have theme bars and diddly festivals to sustain us! People want the genuine article, rightly. The market for English Folk music has not flourished in the same way for many reasons, among them being the willingness or otherwise of breweries to subsidise it. Of course it should be, but for many years it has been perceived as embarassing to sing English and at the sedate pace of the countryside. It's beginning to have its strengths recognised again, fortunately, and pride is allowable without all the usual suspects shouting it down. People like Keith Kendrick can make a living because they are good and are respected. However, I think many people gave up because simply the alternatives were better. Now there is a pool of good semipros coming back on the revival. |
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13 Nov 07 - 03:09 PM (#2192915) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: synbyn there's a missing subsidised there... an exception being Shepherd Neame, who promote music in their pubs.. |
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13 Nov 07 - 03:30 PM (#2192928) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy Thanks for the kind words, synbyn. But I don't go for the 'theme' pubs, either. ..., and as far as 'diddly festivals'..., well I'm not sure what you mean. Considering that the idea of an Irish 'theme pub' is only valid outside of Ireland (cos by definition, every pub on the island of Ireland is 'Irish'), then the choice does come down to the venue itself. I play the pubs over here: not the 'mad' ones. They are Irish owned and Irish staffed, and contrary to some of the places you play, you could sing Matty Groves in some of these places at 2am on a Saturday morning. The Blues clubs over here host Irish and English traditional; my musical partner for over 15 years is a fiddle player from Somerset, and we have done a lot of the legwork in opening up those kind of venues (in Norway, especially) to trad bands, playing the genuine article It's not as if I haven't cut a lot of dross out of the diary over the years, synbyn but the phrase 'over the years' should be made note of here, too, and as I said earlier, I still think of quitting on average about twice a year. It's not easy; when you're on the go, no day is simple. That's why I'm cutting way down on the live stuff, especially from next year on. I love playing; it's where I truly come alive. But I wont pimp it, prostitute it, or pander to what people's idea of 'what Irish music should be'. And I never want it to become a chore. Asd I said, there's enough decent venues out there. More is needed, for sure. I'm trying to help the Scandinavian scene, as are a few others of us, over here. You need a few good heads, to whom profit margins mean little until things get up and running, in England obviously, who will unselfishly help carve out a few circuits. B. |
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13 Nov 07 - 03:49 PM (#2192947) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: TheSnail Brendy by definition, every pub on the island of Ireland is 'Irish' You mean there isn't a Café Trondheim in Dublin? |
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13 Nov 07 - 03:53 PM (#2192950) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy Owned by the good Fergus from Dublin, Snail.... what's the point? B. |
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13 Nov 07 - 03:59 PM (#2192955) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: TheSnail Er... read again Brendy. |
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13 Nov 07 - 04:01 PM (#2192956) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy I did. I haven't a clue if there is a Café Trondheim in Dublin, and my ignorance is nothing compared to my apathy... What's your point? B. |
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13 Nov 07 - 04:08 PM (#2192963) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: TheSnail I was just intrigued by the idea that there might be a Norwegian theme pub in Ireland. |
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13 Nov 07 - 04:09 PM (#2192965) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Peace There is a Cafe Dublin in Trondheim. |
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13 Nov 07 - 04:22 PM (#2192974) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: TheSnail That was rather the point of the joke, Peace. |
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13 Nov 07 - 04:24 PM (#2192975) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Peace Oh. |
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13 Nov 07 - 04:26 PM (#2192977) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy There could well be, TheSnail. But Guinness, The Irish Pub Company, Derry Bros., and all the rest of the companies that build 'Irish Pubs' in Europe, base them on that style of pub that is well known around Dublin City Centre; The Palace, Oliver St.John Gogarty, etc., not a hypothetical Norwegian theme pub. I hope there will be a Norsk pub/restaurant open in Dublin. Lutefisk has to be truly eaten to be truly believed, and imagine all the Elk & reindeer (with Juniper berries + viltsaus) that is in season right now... I find that when Irish people are in charge of an 'Irish Pub', they run the place a bit differently from the bandwagon-jumper-on-ers, that just want Whiskey in the Jar all the time. they think this is the road to success.... If there are enough of these venues to support you, then happy days... Café Dublin is a metamorphosis. I played at the opening of the first pub on that site (Dirty Nellies - Norwegian millionaire owned it). That was 1996. I played there a few times after that until I decided that I didn't need that kind of venue anymore. Fergus took it over a few years back with a no-bullshit attitude; cleaned the place out, developed the restaurant, and pulls Guinness properly...., and insists his staff do the same. I like tryers. I can't stand chancers. B. |
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13 Nov 07 - 04:34 PM (#2192983) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: The Sandman Some quit,because they like to be treated with respect,it is disrespectful to have a varied guest pricing system,it sends out a message to the punter,that the lesser priced artist is not as good. Snail, if you dont stop this habit at your club,I will metamorphise into a Thrush and gobble you up. |
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13 Nov 07 - 04:48 PM (#2192995) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: TheSnail Dick, stop confusing the issue by continuing the same discussion on different threads. Are you seriously suggesting that customers would pay the same ticket price to see, for instance, me as they would to see, for instance, you? Are you suggesting we should be paid the same fee or that the money paid on my booking should go towards subsidising yours? |
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13 Nov 07 - 05:02 PM (#2193007) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Jim Lad Just a wee observation on my part. There seem to be a number of cafes hosting music, at least in these parts, so it may not be long before one can arrange a tour using these spots instead of folk clubs. Dick: How much would you pay to see ME? |
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13 Nov 07 - 05:32 PM (#2193034) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Kaleea When I was a kid of @13, I was performing in venues such as "coffee houses," festivals, colleges & whatnot around the US. It was fun at times, and very rough, & alot of hard traveling by car. No money to speak of, but I sure met lots of interesting people, & heard many of the best known acts. I sang soul & rock with my brother's band for a few extra bucks now & then, & hit the folk road again. I got married (he was in the US army-they drafted back then, you know), & played a little here & there. The last tour went to the far east & back. My husband insisted I quit the road, so I did. 3-4 years later, last concerts I did back then were at some Korean colleges & a couple of city concerts when he was stationed in S. Korea & I was there with him in the mid 70's. Funny thing is, none of the Americans had heard of me, but some of the Korean students had. In more recent years, somebody was talking to me & knew me from his Grandfather's records. Ouch! He asked me to sing & play some of my "wierd" instruments at a couple of spots in San Diego. I took my Autoharp, Mountain Dulcimer, Penny Whistle & Bodhran. I was quiet suprised, as the kids (mostly in their 20's) sat very quietly & listened, applauding after each song/tune. They wanted to talk to me way into the night, asking me lots of questions, only one of which was "did you used to know so & so?" (I did.) |
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13 Nov 07 - 05:39 PM (#2193039) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy I think there is a change coming, Kaleea; the gap between the generations is getting smaller as the years go on, and tradition is reviving, as there's not so much a bridge to gap as there used to be. Long may it continue. B. |
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14 Nov 07 - 02:28 AM (#2193259) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Jim Lad Still waiting for an answer,Dick. |
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14 Nov 07 - 02:48 AM (#2193266) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) My apologies for suggesting you don't exist, Brendy - now you've shared your website with us its clear you do. I'm now wondering if the sort of venues in Manchester and elsewhere you mentioned for regular gigs are Irish music venues: this is largely a whole seperate scene to the (English) folk scene in Manchester, sustained probably because a huge percentage of Mancunians can trace their roots back to Ireland and are activity interested in their ancestral culture. English folk music in the city, however, is pretty marginal. Not, in my opinion, that it necessarily has to be. I'll not do anymore thread drift on this one. cheers Nigel |
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14 Nov 07 - 08:10 AM (#2193422) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: The Sandman JimLad.I would expect to pay the same, as I would for any other booked guest at a folk club. |
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14 Nov 07 - 08:20 AM (#2193429) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy Thank you Nigel. Quite a lot of people around here do know I exist, so you must be new around here.... ;-) They are folk venues. Genre unspecific. They also have no trouble filling their calendars, as they do the contacting of the artists themselves. Anyway..... B. |
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14 Nov 07 - 08:45 AM (#2193444) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Betsy It's simply the opposite of those who don't quit ( health issues apart). Those who don't quit are making a living (to varying degrees) at what they do . Those who are good at what they do are generally in demand and make a good living. Those of mature age group who are good at what they do,have become good with a combination of hard work, networking, and an ability to usefully use their dead time when travelling the country. Very important. All this travelling for an hour and half show. I admire those who make a living and stay happy whilst tramping up and down the country or should I say countries. Ergo ,if you can't make a living and are not happy (not withstanding being a lottery winner) you might quit,in the same way as aspiring professional sportspersons , aspiring acting professionials et al may find the life style too difficult ,and probably drop down a level to being a semi professional / or an enthusiastic amateur - or G.forbid - quit altogether. |
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14 Nov 07 - 10:02 PM (#2194049) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Greg B Sometimes something you love becomes not so lovable when it's for money. What tore it for me was a series of gigs where we were to arrive at, say, 11 AM for a noon set, only to be told by the 'stage manager' that 'well, so-and-so group have another booking so they'll go on at noon, and you'll go on at three' or some such. Or the time I arrived for a group gig, having traveled two hours on the train and walked blocks humping my instruments on a hot day in August, only to be told that it was 'your turn to watch the gate.' Did 'Mr. Impresario' ever think to get a NON-performer who maybe wasn't traveling two hours after work to do that job? Crap like that just takes the enjoyment out of it. |
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14 Nov 07 - 11:09 PM (#2194092) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Jim Lad Good answer, Dick. Still, I think some are worth more than others and prefer to leave such things as cover charge, to those whose business it really is. Took my kid to a fast food place today and got chatting to another dad. Turns out that he's another folkie, exact same situation as myself. i.e. 52 Y. O., has very young children and gave up the music to be home with them. Remarkably, he and his wife have opened a cafe. She works the mornings and he, the evenings. On Sunday nights he runs an open stage in the cafe. Goes back to a number of the things I was saying previously. I think there's a trend. We're not really quitting, just shifting. p.s. The burger was excellent, the fries sucked. |
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15 Nov 07 - 06:23 AM (#2194243) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Fidjit My pension keeps the wolf from the door, but I still do about 15 - 30 or so gigs a year. Not all payed ones. I'll be 75 next year. I still enjoy singing for my own pleasure. (and boring others) Same with painting watercolours. Who's buying? Don't have any more space on the wall. Change your pictures when you change your curtains. And when did YOU last change your curtains? Changed my name to chas clark dot net Chas |
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15 Nov 07 - 08:10 AM (#2194295) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Brendy LOng way from The Dubliner, Chas... Nice site... ;-) B. |
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15 Nov 07 - 11:13 AM (#2194458) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Betsy ......and very well you play and sing too Chas - bless ya .Give my best to all at the session in Oslo next time you're there - I miss 'em all. Cheers, Betsy |
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15 Nov 07 - 11:19 AM (#2194463) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: GUEST,Tunesmith I can quite understand folksingers quiting and changing direction career wise, but I'm always surprised when film(movie)actors do the same. A number of reasonably well known actors have got out of the acting profession and gone into real estate sales or whatever. |
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15 Nov 07 - 07:04 PM (#2194887) Subject: RE: folksingers who quit,and why? From: Betsy Hi Tunesmith - Someone once told me John Goodluck became a big wheel in Insurance - it happens - and many semi-pros / top liners at festivals have quite respectable jobs , irrespective of their personal appearances. That's life |