BS: Failure of Feminism?

18 Dec 07 - 03:54 PM (#2218370)
Subject: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: beardedbruce

from the Washington Post...

A Stanton For the Saudis

By Anne Applebaum
Tuesday, December 18, 2007; Page A25

"A court in country X sentenced a black man who had been severely beaten by white men to six months in jail and 200 lashes."

How would you react if you read that in a newspaper? Shock, horror, anger at the regime in country X, no doubt. And once you learned that punishing blacks for associating with whites is routine in country X, you might even get angrier. You might call for sanctions, you might insist that country X not participate in the Olympics. You might demand that country X be treated like apartheid-era South Africa.

In fact the sentence is real -- almost. When originally published on the CBS News Web site last month, the story concerned a woman, not a black man, and country X was Saudi Arabia.

Here is the real quote:

"A Saudi court sentenced a woman who had been gang raped to six months in jail and 200 lashes."

True, this extraordinary case, in which a rape victim was condemned for associating with a man not her relative, did create a small international echo. Hillary Clinton led a chorus of Democrats condemning the ruling, and a few editorials condemned it, too. It wasn't much, but it mattered: Thanks to international pressure, the Saudi king has pardoned the woman. And now? In Saudi Arabia women still can't vote, can't drive, can't leave the house without a male relative. No campaign of the kind once directed at South Africa has ever been mounted in their defense.

The comparison of Saudi and South African apartheid, and the different Western attitudes to both, has been made before. Recently the journalist Mona Eltahawy argued that while oil is a factor, the real reason Saudi teams aren't kicked out of the Olympics is that the "Saudis have succeeded in pulling a fast one on the world by claiming their religion is the reason they treat women so badly." Islam, she points out, does take other forms in Turkey, Morocco, Indonesia and elsewhere. But Saudi propaganda, plus our own timidity about foreign customs, has blinded us to the fact that the systematic, wholesale Saudi oppression of women isn't dictated by religion at all but rather by the culture of the Saudi ruling class.


I think there is another explanation, too. As a nation, we are partial to issues that seem familiar, and the story of apartheid South Africa had echoes in our own civil rights movement. It wasn't that big a leap for Jesse Jackson to support the anti-apartheid movement when it was at its peak in the 1980s, but it wasn't that hard for college students then, either: We had been taught about institutionalized racism in school.

By contrast, the women of contemporary Saudi Arabia need a much more fundamental revolution than the one that took place among American women in the 1960s, and it's one we have trouble understanding. Unlike American blacks, American women have not had to grapple with issues as basic as the right to study or vote for a long time. Instead, we have (fortunately) fought for less fundamental rights in recent decades, and our women's groups have of late (unfortunately) had the luxury of focusing on the marginal. The National Council of Women's Organizations' most famous recent campaign was against the Augusta National Golf Club. The Web site of the National Organization for Women (I hate to pick on that group, but it's so easy) has space for issues of "non-sexist car insurance" and "network neutrality," but not the Saudi rape victim or the girl murdered last week in Canada for refusing to wear a hijab.

The reigning feminist ideology doesn't help: The philosopher Christina Hoff Sommers has written, among other things, that some American feminists, self-focused and reluctant to criticize non-Western cultures, have convinced themselves that "sexual terror" in America (a phrase from a real women's studies textbook) is more dangerous than actual terrorism. But the deeper problem is the gradual marginalization of "women's issues" in domestic politics, which has made them subordinate to security issues, or racial issues, in foreign policy as well.

American delegates to international and U.N. women's organizations are mostly identified with arguments about reproductive rights (for or against, depending on the administration), not arguments about the fundamental rights of women in Saudi Arabia or the Muslim world.

Until this changes, it will be hard to mount a campaign, in the manner of the anti-apartheid movement, to enforce sanctions or codes of conduct for people doing business there. What we need as a model, in other words, is not the 1960s feminism we all remember but a globalized version of the 19th-century feminism we've nearly forgotten. Candidates for the role of Elizabeth Cady Stanton, anyone?

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18 Dec 07 - 05:08 PM (#2218433)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: artbrooks

Have you an opinion on this, Bruce?

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18 Dec 07 - 05:39 PM (#2218456)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Stringsinger

Hi Bruce,

You point: "The reigning feminist ideology doesn't help: The philosopher Christina Hoff Sommers has written, among other things, that some American feminists, self-focused and reluctant to criticize non-Western cultures, have convinced themselves that "sexual terror" in America (a phrase from a real women's studies textbook) is more dangerous than actual terrorism. But the deeper problem is the gradual marginalization of "women's issues" in domestic politics, which has made them subordinate to security issues, or racial issues, in foreign policy as well."

I would like to see the actual quote before I comment on Christina Hoff. Child and espousal abuse (mostly directed at women in the US) is a form of actual terrorism. There are many feminists that are not self-focused and reluctant to criticize tyranny against women where it exists. Actually, "sexual terror" in the US is not subordinate to security issues because it reinforces the problem of dealing with a coherent foreign policy. How can you criticize a foreign culture when the "terror" is being perpetrated here at home?

Wherever the abuse of women and children take place, it is abhorrent to every decent person. Wherever it exists, it makes the problem larger and not isolated to any culture, Western or non-Western.

I would vote for Elizabeth Cady Stanton in a heartbeat. She was eclipsed by Susan B. Anthony because she was a non-believer and not a Catholic like Anthony. Stanton ought to have her own image on the silver dollar.

Frank Hamilton

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18 Dec 07 - 05:55 PM (#2218472)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Peace

Sounds more like a failure of humanism to me.

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18 Dec 07 - 05:55 PM (#2218473)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: M.Ted

Susan B. Anthony was a Quaker.

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18 Dec 07 - 06:02 PM (#2218477)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Bee

I remember, several years ago, reading an interesting discussion on this subject, between Canadian feminists and women activists in Islamic nations like Saudi Arabia. The Saudi (and other)women were concerned that Western women, while their hearts were in the right place, were not conversant with the direction Saudi women wish to take, and which they believed to be the most likely to be successful, which was a slow and steady pressure on their own men and on government.

They felt that Canadian feminists would do them more good by activities such as fund raising for them, and offering educational opportunities whenever possible. They were afraid that a Western feminist style of protest and activism could create a backlash that harmed more women than it helped.

Whether they are correct or not is a good question, but it was a dialogue that caused many Canadian feminists to back off a little on rhetoric, recognising that these women face real physical harm if they too loudly oppose the status quo.

That said, I think it is very important that Western political leaders apply pressure to these regressive and oppressive regimes whenever they can, and encouraging them to do so is probably where Western feminist energy should be focussed.

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18 Dec 07 - 06:09 PM (#2218480)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Bobert

Well, a good first step in dealing with other countries sexism is for the good ol' US of A to deal with it's own first...

Women are still being paid less then men for doing the same work...

Women are still expected to do the bulk of housework and child rearing while holding down full time jobs...

Women and their children still make up a disporportionate percentage of folks living in or near poverty...

And women are frequently abused not only by their spouses, S.O.'s and others but by a legal system that allows it...

So before we tell the Saudi's how to treat women, we have a lot of heavy lifting to do ourselves...

B~

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18 Dec 07 - 06:09 PM (#2218482)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Peace

Take it a step further than that.

"The south politician preaches to the poor White man,
You got more than the Blacks don't complain . . .".

The real issue is one of people, male and female, being repressed, oppressed, held back by a tyranical group of governments. If one's thinking is such that it is ONLY and issue of 'feminism', the problems will never be solved.

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18 Dec 07 - 06:11 PM (#2218483)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Rog Peek

It seems to me that in the case of the uk, the reluctance to criticise the Saudi Arabian record on human rights is rooted in arms sales!

Rog

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18 Dec 07 - 07:27 PM (#2218541)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: McGrath of Harlow

You point: Bruce didn't in fact point anything, apart from pointing to an article he cut and pasted.

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18 Dec 07 - 07:31 PM (#2218544)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: john f weldon

The 80's feminists of my aquaintance were a surly, humourless (and utterly ineffective) lot, concerned primarily with trivialities like "gender-specific language" and naughty pictures.

One typical incident: I wandered up to a woman whom I hadn't seen in ages and began to chat. She walked away in silence, and later told my wife: "Could you please tell John that I no longer have words for men."

(Oh right, this was about Saudi Arabia? I'll solve that in a later post!)

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18 Dec 07 - 08:11 PM (#2218576)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Bee

john f. weldon, I seriously doubt that the women you describe were feminists in anything but the faddish manner in which many people take up current rhetoric.

I am a feminist. I have never been concerned, nor have any of the women I have counted as friends, colleagues or role models, with minutiae like gender specific language, except where it literally removed women from the picture. I remember men saying things like "They call them 'fire/policemen' for a reason."

I remember not being allowed to apply for a job as a flag"man" with the highway department, being told (along with the entire first year class) by my art college history prof that "the women here are wasting their money and my time. Women do not become artists.", and not even being allowed into a bar or tavern, or even a 'Ladies' Beverage Room' without a male escort. When I first started working in childcare in the seventies, incidents of male bosses firing or otherwise punishing mothers who had to come pick up a sick child. I remember my aunt being fired from her job because she was pregnant.

I could go on and get considerably more serious regarding gender inequality in terms of medical care, pay, career oppportunities, sexual assaults, treatment by the judiciary, and so on.

The work of feminists and the men who agreed with them has made this a much fairer society than it was pre-1970. If you aren't aware of that, it's unfortunate but at least means a lot has been achieved. If you are aware, and can only post in a discussion about seriously oppressed women that feminists are crap, then I can only assume you have issues regarding women who aren't doormats.

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18 Dec 07 - 08:32 PM (#2218592)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: beardedbruce

"You point: Bruce didn't in fact point anything, apart from pointing to an article he cut and pasted. "

Absolutely true. I have found that it is pointless to express my own opinion, and get honest opinions from many here. Whatever I state, they feel obligated to oppose.

I find it interesting that it is ok to pressure a foreign government in some cases to do what we want them to, but not in other cases. I feel that Saudi treatment of women is despicable, and we should apply the same sanctions that South Africa recieved, until they change their system.

But that will not happen.

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18 Dec 07 - 09:31 PM (#2218626)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Whatever I state, they feel obligated to oppose

Not this time. Cosying up to the Saudi regime - we had the King pay a state visit to England a few weeks back - is pretty nauseating. (And it makes a mockery of the suggestion that our governments' quarrel with Saddam and Co indicated any real concern about human rights.)

(My point about mentioning the cut and paste was to head off people getting into an argument with bruce for saying things he hadn't actually said.)

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18 Dec 07 - 10:34 PM (#2218651)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: john f weldon

Dear Bee...

I stand corrected. Your first sentence is probably quite true, and if I wished to wax eloquent about it, perhaps it should have been somewhere else. But... ...the subject was about "the failure of feminism".

I'll stick to Saudi Arabia.

Can change come within? This is unlikely. The regime is so repressive that any doubt results in death! If change came, it would be sudden and catastrophic!

What would change from within bring? Another, equally repressive, less friendly theocracy? Hard to tell, since no one would dare to give an honest answer to a pollster.

Could external pressure change things? Sure, but very slowly. Pressure works both ways. China and Saudi Arabia both work hard to decrease human rights in the west; they can use economic sanctions, too!

It's hopeless? In the short run, yes. At best, a long, slow series of mutual "pressures" will probably tip the balance in favour of a more egalitarian world, over several generations.

What will help? Less oil. Less phoney respect for religion. Less "real-politick".

What about "moderate" Muslims? That would be great, if there were any. How many were willing to denounce the fatwa on Salman Rushdie? Where are the Muslim equivalents of Unitarians? Are there Muslim Atheists? Muslim feminists?

What would you do, you lazy pontificating old fart? If I were God, I'd make oil unburnable for a decade. This would cause great misery in the short run. But we'd figure something out.

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18 Dec 07 - 11:52 PM (#2218684)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: katlaughing

Well-said, Bee and I am still a feminist, too, for reasons similar to what you experienced.

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19 Dec 07 - 11:16 AM (#2218965)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Grab

Thing is when you look back at the original suffragettes, you have to look at what was needed.

1) First of all, they had to convince a majority of other women that this was worth fighting for.
2) Then women generally had to convince a majority of men that their treatment was unjust.
3) Then men generally had to convince a majority of men in government to do something about it through legislation.

This was inevitably a long, slow process.

The additional problem we have is that moral values are the diametric OPPOSITE of religion. Religion says "these are the laws, now follow them or be punished". Moral values say "from the first principle of not hurting other people, what should the laws be?" It's taken the Christian West the better part of 400 years for that philosophy to take root in society. And even now, more overtly religious places will blatantly ignore crimes when their religious code conflicts with the law, homosexual hate crime and persecution of family-planning clinics in the US being prime examples.

These are both massive changes to society. But those changes can't happen overnight - it is literally an evolutionary issue, because it requires people who follow the old way of thinking to die before new ways can take their place.

Graham.

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19 Dec 07 - 11:46 AM (#2218989)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Peace

The failure of feminism is the failure of all humans.

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19 Dec 07 - 11:53 AM (#2218997)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Emma B

the true 'ism' we should adher to is equality of opportunity for all; whatever gender, creed or colour.

'Em', humanist

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19 Dec 07 - 12:03 PM (#2219002)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Jack Campin

: What about "moderate" Muslims? That would be great, if there were any. How many were
: willing to denounce the fatwa on Salman Rushdie? Where are the Muslim equivalents of
: Unitarians? Are there Muslim Atheists? Muslim feminists?"

Yes to all except "atheists", if you'd get off your bigoted arse and either read something or go talk to some.

About forty Turkish Muslims *died* at the hands of a fascist mob for challenging the Rushdie witchhunt. Look up "Alevi" on Wikipedia (if you can be bothered even to do that).

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19 Dec 07 - 12:14 PM (#2219005)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Bee

Thanks for the considered post, john f. weldon. Sometimes we react to old insults instead of the issue at hand - it's human.

katlaughing, I'm also strongly pro-union, and there's a huge overlap, IMO. I had the interesting experience in the late seventies of working alongside some very young women who felt women's rights were pretty much a done deal, heartening in some ways, because they were able to believe they could do anything they wanted, a bit annoying on the other hand because they hadn't a clue how long and hard a road it had been to give them that.

Then there was a crisis at the workplace, salaries (already quite low) were to be cut by one-third and benefits (such as they were) eliminated. We were advised that joining a union would freeze the process until a contract could be worked out. That's when these young women discovered that almost no large union would take on a small group of low-paid women. Talk about swiftly rising consciousness!

In the end we found a willing union, and things proceeded fairly smoothly - except for the glitch halfway through when nothing could be done for a week because the all female clerical staff of the union had locked their bosses out of the offices because of unfair treatment and inequal salaries. Our Rep was very sheepish about it all.

(Sorry, this is rather off topic.)

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19 Dec 07 - 12:28 PM (#2219016)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Peace

It IS the topic, Bee.

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19 Dec 07 - 01:09 PM (#2219047)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Greg B

Bee said:

>The work of feminists and the men who agreed with them has made this a >much fairer society than it was pre-1970.

In doing so, she has, without intending to, pointed up one of the
failures of the feminist movement: full inclusion, and full dialog
based on ideas and capability versus gender. Some feminists are more
equal than others.

Why aren't "the men who agreed with them" described as "feminists,"
as opposed to "the men who agreed with them?"

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19 Dec 07 - 02:29 PM (#2219088)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Midchuck

I think that our government has some pretty damn strange rules for dealing with Saudi Arabia in any event.

As I understand it, most, if not all, of the 9/11 suicide terrorists were Saudis. So to get retribution for the attack, we went to war in Afganistan and Iraq - but continued to call Saudi Arabia an "ally."

I think the point is that the administration will do nearly anything to keep from p***ing off the Saudis, probably because they don't want to risk losing the oil. Ignoring their treatment of women is just one instance.

Or so it seems to me.

Peter

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19 Dec 07 - 03:12 PM (#2219115)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Bee

Greg B, that's the kind of verbal nitpickery feminists are often accused of. There were and are plenty of men who agree that women should have full access to whatever men have full access to, but a great many of them don't care to be referred to as 'feminists', for whatever their reasons may be. Likewise, there are men who take on the label with enthusiasm. I look forward to the day when, where human issues are concerned, we can refer to ourselves, regardless of gender, as humans, or people.

I don't know how old you are, Greg, but in the early days of the most recent women's movement, a dismaying majority of men were very much opposed to gender equality, or agreed that some things should be changed, but not all, or that women were going too far, or that all feminists were 'lesbians and manhaters'. Men who called themselves feminists received a great deal of abuse from other men for speaking up.

Calling oneself a feminist is not fashionable these days. Many young women shy away from the label while espousing the goals. I can suggest several reasons for that, one being the extreme male-hating rhetoric from a small but vocal contingent of radical feminist writers and speakers, most of whom are long since retired or dead, but who are always referred to by men who resent any suggestion that just maybe womens' rights have a ways to go. Another is the wish by younger women not to alienate their male friends and colleagues, who are also young and don't often know what the fuss was all about, and are fed tales of affirmative action threatening their jobs. And yet another is the rise of the religious right, both Islamic and Christian, wherein women and men are told that God says they are not equal. I've seen very religious couples who spout the Biblical or Koran's message of man being the head, yet practice equality in no uncertain terms.

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19 Dec 07 - 03:19 PM (#2219124)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: john f weldon

Jack...
A few years ago an artist put a crucifix in a jar of piss and called it art. The Pope called for his immediate assassination, and he went into hiding. A few Unitarians protested but were immediately slaughtered by a crowd of angry Catholics.

What's wrong with this story? It didn't happen! I have no love of Christians, but they do have a reasonable supply of "moderates", to keep things cool.

You're correct to mention the brave few. But enough to make a difference? In Saudi Arabia?

I frankly expected more from, say, European Muslims at the time (Salman Rushdie) but the silence was deafening.

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19 Dec 07 - 03:38 PM (#2219136)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Jack Campin

The Alevi are about a third of the population of Turkey. Not some insignificant fraction.

You haven't actually made *any* effort to look at the range of Muslim opinions there are, have you?

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19 Dec 07 - 04:58 PM (#2219198)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: john f weldon

Woops, I just get back to the computer and.....
...getting back to Jack....


Oh, yes.

I was, in fact ,(a few years ago) under the impression that the majority of the Turkish populace were largely egalitarian. moderate, ecumenical, and largely secular!

I seem to be wrong.

I hope you're right! I want to lose! I want you to convince me that 20 million Turks along with Kurds and Sufis will do better than the Albigensians, Manichaeans, and Gnostics of Christianity.

But I do have some knowledge, and personal knowledge. Encourage me!

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20 Dec 07 - 09:41 AM (#2219609)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Grab

It's still quite rare to hear a man say that he really wants to set his career aside to become a 'stay at home Dad.'

Further to that, Greg, I'd like to point out that this is still strongly discriminated against by UK legislation.

A woman is legally entitled to 6 weeks pay at 9/10 pay, the remainder of the first 6 months at £112.75 per week, and if she's been there longer than 6 months then she gets an extra 6 months. She's also legally entitled to get her original job back after that. In fact, most employers operate a scheme where a woman gets full pay (or at least some fixed proportion of it) during this period provided she returns to work when that period is over.

A man is entitled to two weeks leave. Unpaid.

That's not to mention TV shows which are still made (as of this year) to show how "amusing" it is to ask a man to look after kids and a house for a week, and which still use this as a sitcom device. Nor legal systems which give custody to abusive mothers in preference to fathers. Nor organisations like the old CSA which literally bankrupted fathers with the threat "if you don't pay us, you'll never see your children again".

Yeah, gender equality would be a wonderful thing...

Bitter? Me? Well yes, actually. My wife isn't greatly maternal, and we can't afford to lose my income. Hence no kids in this family.

Graham.

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20 Dec 07 - 10:09 AM (#2219631)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Riginslinger

All of this points up the real failure of feminism. In North American and Western Europe young women were encourage to abandon tradition "home-making" roles, give up child bearing, and go into the male dominated world and make a name for themselves. Many of them did, and there's nothing wrong with that. It had the additional benefit of controlling human population growth.

                  But then corporate greed took over, and in the blind search for more market share and large profit margins, hordes of unskilled, poorly educated masses were encouraged to crowd into Europe and America, and most of the gains of feminism were instantly lost.

                  The larger tragedy is, the popultaions in the areas where the hordes are coming from has not stabilized; they are often operating under the direction of preists, pastors, and witch doctors who demand the women stay subservient to men, and "go forth and procreate," and they bring these same primordial views to the countries to which they are moving.

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20 Dec 07 - 10:31 AM (#2219646)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Peace

As soon as a focus switches from gains for humanity to gains for groups within humanity, the whole damned thing is perceived to be just one more "me, me, me" grab in a world where most folks are sick of the SSDD crap that gets spewed in place of thought.

I still open doors for women, older people (although they are getting harder to find) and give my seat to both the aforementioned on public conveyances. If someone is offended by that, piss on 'em. I did work decades ago for women's groups and gay groups--mostly benefit concerts to help raise awareness and/or money. I don't anymore because the agendas seem to have been hijacked from a search for equality to a search for dominance. As I said earlier, piss on 'em.

Merry Christmas to all.

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20 Dec 07 - 03:43 PM (#2219849)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: GUEST,hg

This title "Failure of Feminism" turned me off right away. I thought to myself, "Why is it feminism's responsiblity to fix these injustices?

This is about men and women, simply put. If men will not concede that we are entitled to equality and make sure we get it, those of us who want it must each find a way to win equality in our own country and culture the best way we know how. Men all over the world have more power than women to bestow freedom on women...why doesn't this thread read "Failure of Men?"

I applaud the Muslim women in their understanding of how to go about winning freedoms they are entitled to.

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20 Dec 07 - 04:05 PM (#2219866)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: GUEST,Peace

As a guy said (me): it's a failure of humanity. It is not anymore a failure of men than it is of women. It is a failure of all people--including YOU, hg.

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20 Dec 07 - 04:11 PM (#2219876)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Peace

BTW, harpgirl, have a great Christmas season.

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20 Dec 07 - 04:19 PM (#2219882)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Stringsinger

I was wrong. M Ted, you are right. Susan B Anthony was a Quaker. The point I was making is that Elizabeth Cady Stanton was not religious and as a result was marginalized although she did as much as Anthony. The powers that be would never put a non-believer on a coin.
Even in 1954, "In God We Trust" was added as a political move.

I see nothing wrong with addressing the inequality of women with men as "feminism".
I think it defines a corrective in society when women were considered second-class citizens. I don't see that feminism was a failure here. When some women are allowed to
crash the glass ceiling in work, I don't see that as a failure either. So far, equal pay for equal work and an amendment to the Constitution of an Equal Rights Amendment have a role for feminism yet to pursue. Humanism requires feminism to function properly. If women are not considered equal to men, then there can be no humanism or justice.

Frank Hamilton

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20 Dec 07 - 04:23 PM (#2219884)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Peace

THAT nails it. Thanks, Frank.

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20 Dec 07 - 04:59 PM (#2219907)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: GUEST,hg

I am offended by the men on this thread who insist on being right about feminism. Even you, Frank. The only male on this thread with the correct point of view is.... God I can't believe I'm saying this: Bobert.

It is a failure of MEN even though you men don't like to hear this.   
That's my final word on the subject on this thread.

Merry Christmas to you, too Bruce. It's 70 degrees here and my parents are now seven minutes instead of seven hours away. I'm content in my filial oppression!

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20 Dec 07 - 08:05 PM (#2220024)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Greg B

hg... do go ahead and be offended. Right and wrong is not
a matter of being gifted with a penis or a vagina. To me,
that's what feminism is all about.

A woman is as entitled to be full of shit as is a man, and
to carry on none the less. So do carry on.

Perhaps that's the ultimate equality.

But if you expect me to shut up so as not to offend you---
well, go back to feminism 101. Men didn't shut up so as not
to offend one another.

So you have a choice--- if you expect us to shut up so as not
to offend you, then shut up yourself, because we find you offensive.

Or, dismount your high horse and engage in honest discourse
amongst equals.

You can't have it both ways, sister.

Do you want to be a 'high toned lady' or an 'interlocutor?'

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20 Dec 07 - 11:28 PM (#2220104)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: katlaughing

Interesting, isn't it, that the feminist era
precisely overlapped with the 1st-world's return to breast-feeding
and the resulting additional maternal ties which it entails?)


Yes, interesting in that it was the feminist movement which said there was nothing offensive about a woman nursing her child. It was also the feminist movement which validated a woman's right to stay home and fought for her to have some equality to do so. Who do you think fought for the Family Leave bill?<sup>1


1</sup>click here: Feminist leaders, who for decades have supported paid family leave, celebrated the governor's decision to make California the first state to enact comprehensive legislation.

Bee, good work. I know what you mean about the young women. They still take so much of what we gained for granted. When I volunteered at a Planned Parenthood in the late 70's, I marvelled at the young women who would come in looking for birth control after a year or more of being sexually active with no protection, finally scared enough by a missed moontime or a friend's pregnancy to get some help. I don't think they knew how fortunate they were to have it so readily available without parental permission.

Also, there are still men, here in the West, who believe a feminist must be a lesbian and man-hater.

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21 Dec 07 - 06:29 AM (#2220224)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Jack Campin

John Weldon: In Turkey, "secular" does not usually mean "not Muslim". It means you want a secular form of government. The most enthusiastic secularists have been the Alevis, whose Islamic practices are unusually private (no mosques) but if anything conducted with more zeal than the average. Most Sunnis have been secularists until recently too, of course - Turkey's experience with Islamic government under the later Ottomans was such a catastrophic mess only a few cranks want to go back to it.

Islamic fundamentalism in Turkey was largely a creation of the US under Reagan, as it was in Afghanistan. The NATO-sponsored generals who ran the country after 1980 used the fundies first as disavowable death squads run by the secret police (like the "Hizbollah" in the East - no connection with other groups using that name - who killed thousands of Kurdish activists) and later to build a Turkish-nationalist/Sunni-fundamentalist coalition to oppose the majority Alevi/socialist one that formed in the 1970s. That coalition is still a rather small minority, but with so much support from the state (and the US, and conservative European regimes, and Israel) it's horribly dangerous. (And other "Islamic fundamentalists" are de facto social democrats, particularly in local government - Turkish party alignments are probably more fluid than those of any other country).

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21 Dec 07 - 09:53 AM (#2220295)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Riginslinger

Fundamentalism is not only the enemy of feminism in Turkey, but a huge roadblock for progress in the US. Knowing that, one can only speculate what a huge catastrophe it would be for Turkey to come into the EU.

             Kat - After looking throught your post, and reviewing my earlier post, it occurred to me how hugely important "family leave" really is. When I lived in California, though, all I could think about at the time was how the public employees got another benefit, while wages in the private sector continued to go down. It made me mad and I didn't really look into it.

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21 Dec 07 - 10:05 AM (#2220306)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Peace

. . . and then there's Ann Coulter.

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21 Dec 07 - 10:16 AM (#2220317)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Peace

I think many women are fed up defending feminism (and I don't blame 'em for that). I think it's very important, partly for a fairly selfish reason. I have two daughters. And that I hope makes my position clear.

Harpgirl: that is great to hear--being closer to family. You take good care of yourself--I sometimes think of you out kayaking with those alligators and I gotta tell ya, it's not for this ol' boy. It is good to see you posting again, and I wish you'd log in long enough to send me your e-mail address so's I can forward a few mp3s.

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21 Dec 07 - 10:26 AM (#2220322)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: GUEST,dianavan

"...wholesale Saudi oppression of women isn't dictated by religion at all but rather by the culture..."

Thats exactly why its important to focus on changes that must be made within our own culture. Europe and North America should model, for the rest of the world, that violence and oppression (against anyone) is unacceptable. We have the power to change our own culture but we do not have the power to change anyone else.

At the same time, foreign policy should recognize that they can't complain about women's rights in Afghanistan or Iran until they acknowlege that there is a problem in Saudi Arabia and other parts of the world as well.

Feminism has as it was in the 60's or in the 40's or ...has certainly changed but that is why the movement is dynamic. It will continue to change throughout time. Change is not the same as failure.

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21 Dec 07 - 10:29 AM (#2220327)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Greg B

>Islamic fundamentalism in Turkey was largely a creation of the US under >Reagan, as it was in Afghanistan.

It's all very convenient to lay these troubles at the feet of a
dead president, isn't it? Because it dodges the fundamental (ahem)
question of the free will of individuals to embrace, or not to
embrace, an ideology which espouses things like convicting female
rape victims of adultery, the death penalty for heresy, and so on.

Such depraved and uncivilized behavior was not invented by the
Reagan administration, for all of its shortcomings.

To me, this is just the flip side of the Bush administrations',
both of them, having constantly distinguished between 'the Iraqi
people' and Saddam's regime, then later the insurgency. It's
a false dichotomy.

Perhaps it's easier just to avoid believing that 'the [insert
nationality] people' in a significant majority really DO view
the 'Islamic State' and 'Islamic Law' as something to be aspired
to, or that they can easily be convinced of same. There certainly
is precedent for that; a century ago, a majority of Americans
probably believed that most things which Christianity said were
immoral ought to be punishable under civil law as well.

Maybe nobody wants to believe that because the realize that if
that is the case, the world is far more dangerous and its problems
far more intractable then they had imagined.

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21 Dec 07 - 10:46 AM (#2220339)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Peace

Women wanting and being active in a quest for equality in countries controlled by arseholes like the Taliban or right-of-Hitler religious leaders are very brave. It is easier (well, ya don't often get killed for it) in North America where all that has to be fought is ignorance and institutional sexism. My girls are probably the only two people on this planet I would commit 'murder one' for. What kind of world is it when young kids are used as sex objects, where sentences for rape are in single digits, where spousal abuse is 90% men battering women, where people (women people) don't feel safe walking streets at night? This kinda crap IS the responsibility of all men. Equality of women is NOT just a women's issue. I would hope at least that men who have daughters would try to see things from the perspective of being men who have daughters. Some things are real basic to me: touch my girls and I will arrange for the guy(s) to enjoy their last few moments in the trunk of a car. If anyone thinks that's bluster then you just don't know me at all. Tell me: what the hell kind of world is it when a woman can be gang-raped and the bastards get a slap on the wrist for it? What kind of world? And what kind of men are we if we do not do our best to change that?

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21 Dec 07 - 10:56 AM (#2220343)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Riginslinger

"There certainly is precedent for that; a century ago, a majority of Americans probably believed that most things which Christianity said were immoral ought to be punishable under civil law as well."

                   The problem is, there are still a bunch of buffoons out there who still do believe this. Until we can educate them, we have little chance of making any progress in the rest of the world. The people who were running Ronald Reagan created an environment where it was virtually impossible to educate them, and George W. Bush has made this situation even worse.


                         ". . . and then there's Ann Coulter."



                      Peace - In order to require family leave, she would have to have some kind of a relationship with a man.

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21 Dec 07 - 11:56 AM (#2220374)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Peace

From what I have read on this thread, you could replace the term 'organized religion' with 'political party' and not have to change much else. (BTW, I know Will Roger's quote.)

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21 Dec 07 - 11:59 AM (#2220376)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Peace

LOL--heck, I just posted that to the wrong thread.

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21 Dec 07 - 03:43 PM (#2220482)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Greg B

>This kinda crap IS the responsibility of all men.

No--- it's the responsibility of all of civilization.

Don't try and slap it on those of us who happen to have been
born with a penis.

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21 Dec 07 - 03:45 PM (#2220483)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Peace

Settle down for fu#k sake. I said it is the responsibility of all men and you take it to mean it's not also the responsibility of all women too?

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21 Dec 07 - 03:47 PM (#2220484)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Peace

"No--- it's the responsibility of all of civilization."

And if you took a sec to read an earlier post of mine, that's what I have been saying. Have a nice fuc#in' day.

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21 Dec 07 - 04:47 PM (#2220517)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: GUEST,mg

One huge failure of feminism was the emotional brutality towards men. Oh don't bother to say it wasn't there and there was no damage from it. There was. Maybe true feminists didn't do it, just idle bystanders, but it was done. If you damage men, you damage their children for one thing...you make them less likely to take the risks of marriage, which has more repurcussions. It was awful to watch. mg

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21 Dec 07 - 05:38 PM (#2220542)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Greg B

If you're a feminist and in a conversation about feminism
and use phrases like "the responsibility of all men" you
either

a) are speaking about men, not men and women
b) were out sick when the discussion of inclusive and specific
   language occurred
c) really insensitive

If you respond by spewing profanity, rather than correcting
yourself and your choice of words, you've confirmed
that you're (c), in spades.

Either that or you're just passive-aggressive, and like to
play the aggrieved party when you're, in fact, the aggressor.

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21 Dec 07 - 06:03 PM (#2220556)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Or perhaps you might be a rather pedantic feminist who prefers to recognise that in that context "man" is the English means the species rather than the sex. Latin has two words - "homo" for the species, "vir" for the sex.

................
Meanwhile in a country closely allied to yours and mine, with a regime backed to the hilt, women are faced with the kind of stuff that this thread opened with.

I sense a lack of proportion in the priorities soem people seem to have...

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21 Dec 07 - 06:19 PM (#2220564)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Emma B

Second what McGrath said!

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21 Dec 07 - 06:24 PM (#2220566)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Stringsinger

To blame men for the so-called failure of feminism shows an undue prejudice on the part of the accuser. Some men could be anti-feminist but there are many who support such items as the Equal Rights Amendment and fair pay for equal work for women. There are many men who would relish being house-husbands and encourage their wives to work if they wanted to.

Blame is the easy way out. That belies having to look honestly at the issue. The solution
is not blame but cooperation. Enemy posing whether toward men in general or specific
individuals that make you mad is foolish and unhelpful.

Generalizations about women or men tend to sterotype either sex and avoid the fundamental question as to how to live in a just society for both.

Anger solves nothing,

Frank Hamilton

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21 Dec 07 - 07:25 PM (#2220605)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Richard Bridge

And, McGrath, the latin "membrum virile" is pretty obviously the root of the popular term "willy".

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21 Dec 07 - 07:28 PM (#2220610)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Macaronic rhyming slang? Could be, but it might just be like "John Thomas", but using a different common name.

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21 Dec 07 - 07:28 PM (#2220611)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Jack Campin

: Fundamentalism is not only the enemy of feminism in Turkey,

It isn't. It's largely irrelevant to it. The regulation of women is not one of its major concerns.

: but a huge roadblock for progress in the US.

You have a very different situation there.

: Knowing that, one can only speculate what a huge catastrophe it would be for Turkey
: to come into the EU.

The forces within Turkey that don't want entry to the EU are precisely the nationalist-fundamentalist axis. The people behind the Kurdish war and the hardline on Armenian genocide denial (e.g. the judicial harassment of Orhan Pamuk) are precisely the political class put into positions of influence by NATO in the 1980s. Keeping Turkey out of the EU is sending them the strongest message of approval they could get from the West.

I was in Hasankeyf a while back - a historically important Kurdish town threatened with obliteration by a British-bankrolled dam project. The Turkish government was only too delighted to use electricity generation as an excuse to wipe out an icon of Kurdish culture. The EU stepped in and got the project stopped. The locals are the most pro-European folks you could hope to meet outside of a cafe in Strasbourg. (The Turkish government and British banks have now threatened to restart the scheme).

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21 Dec 07 - 09:18 PM (#2220652)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Riginslinger

Maybe it's important to figure out who's propping up the banks, at least to the Kurds.

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21 Dec 07 - 09:26 PM (#2220660)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: McGrath of Harlow

"...what a huge catastrophe it would be for Turkey to come into the EU."

"Keeping Turkey out of the EU is sending them the strongest message of approval they could get from the West."

????

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22 Dec 07 - 11:48 AM (#2220936)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: SINSULL

Slightly off topic:
The entire Saudi justice system is brutal.
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/saudi/justice.html

But given the destruction of torture tapes by our own government we are the pot calling the kettle black. Anyone who has had a relative in a state or federal prison can also attest to horror stories both on the part of fellow inmates and prison officials.
SINS

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22 Dec 07 - 01:58 PM (#2220994)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Peace

"Either that or you're just passive-aggressive, and like to
play the aggrieved party when you're, in fact, the aggressor."

I am not a feminist. I'm a guy who thinks females have been oppressed by men, which they have, and if you find something aggressive in that, tough shit Greg!

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22 Dec 07 - 10:47 PM (#2221199)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Riginslinger

Frankly, I have to admit, I've never understood the greater importance of "family leave" until I read through this thread. I'll pay more attention after this.

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25 Dec 07 - 09:55 AM (#2222347)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Riginslinger

'"A Saudi court sentenced a woman who had been gang raped to six months in jail and 200 lashes."'


                   One of the major reasons the West is reluctant to take a postition on an issue like this is because the actions of the court are sanctioned by religion.

                   What is rarely discussed in forums dealing with basic human rights is this: one can't choose his/her race, gender, and in most cases ethnicity, but one has to choose a religion. For that reason, religion shouldn't be afforded the same considerations as the other issues, but it often is.

                   When the world community begins to treat religion in the same manner as other human choices (racism, Nazism, bird watching, etc.), it will be able to take a constructive role in mitigating situations like the one cited above.

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25 Dec 07 - 07:34 PM (#2222520)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Stringsinger

Authoritarianism is the root cause of the problem. Women have been bullied by men
for too long. We, as a society, need to adopt the nurturing nature of women and get rid
of the macho crap. Authoritarianism whether in religion, politics or even parenting is a disease that keeps one half of the population of the world from being effective in curing social ills.

Frank Hamilton

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26 Dec 07 - 01:43 PM (#2222783)
Subject: RE: BS: Failure of Feminism?
From: Riginslinger

Frank - I agree with what you are saying, but there are still obvious differences between men and women. That's why I think the "Family Leave Act" is so important.

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