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22 Dec 07 - 04:56 PM (#2221074) Subject: What is 'your' meaning for christmas ? From: skarpi hallo all , the reason I ask is this : do you spend alot of money in gifts, food, decoration , clothes and other things just to fullfill the christmas weekend . or do you just stay in peace and quiet with your family, finding peace with lights and love . Do you go to church to find or seek for peace inside your self ? or do you stay home or go out....... do you use alcahol around christmas while you are staying and spending this time with your family ? Do this time have any meaning to you as a person at all ? just wandering .................... I went to a moll here in Reykjavík today and I was so suprised to see what have become of all this people , getting all kind s of things , with fallowing stress and bad tempur , ?? spending money in things that we wont take with us to the other side and for what ? why did I go the moll , well to get three gifts, they cost me about 250$ thats all I am spending for gifts . they have to clean the house , take the cothes to the cleaners, getting all the food , and the wine , I stood there just for a min and looked around me and wandered about this all .... and if you miss all this ....... the christmas comes anyway " right " so why get stressed and worned out for all this ? All I need for this christmas is , my family together on a christmasday . So all Have a Merry christmas and I hope you all got love and peace around this weekend . Skarpi Iceland.
-Joe Offer- |
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22 Dec 07 - 05:00 PM (#2221078) Subject: RE: What is 'your' meaning for christmas ? From: Amos I think you have the rights of the matter, Skarpi. I celebrate the renewal that starts when winter turns the corner and starts for Spring. Mostly because it resonates, for me, with the endless resilience of the human spirit. And I celebrate having a group of people I love. ANd that's what it means. A |
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22 Dec 07 - 05:05 PM (#2221080) Subject: RE: What is 'your' meaning for christmas ? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Celebrating 2000 years of Merry Saturnalia.
Sincerely, |
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22 Dec 07 - 05:06 PM (#2221081) Subject: RE: What is 'your' meaning for christmas ? From: Emma B Sharing and caring. Good fellowship. Turning the corner from the dark to the light and the promise of a new season........ A little food and wine never goes amiss either:) |
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22 Dec 07 - 09:09 PM (#2221175) Subject: RE: What is 'your' meaning for christmas ? From: Canberra Chris Skarpi, Great to hear from you in Iceland. I am in Australia, but grew up in England in a family that celebrated Christmas as a religious and social but mainly family festival. It has a very special meaning for me, because 25 December is also my birthday, and I would have no other day, as much of the world is celebrating. I know about the pre-Christian pagan festivals, which some people say they are keeping, but mostly know little about. In Australia it is also of course mid-summer rather than midwinter. But I drove through snow in Australia, in the Snowy Mountains, on Christmas Day 2001! There is common dismay at the commercialistion of Christmas. It is in fact a great nuisance to the retail industry as well to have such a concentration of business in a short period. I saw an interview with three butchers explaining that it is a very stressful time for them too. So maybe we should call a truce! For me, it is the only festival I know of, religious or not, that is about birth, and held mainly for children. As I arrived at that time too, it probably helped me to see it that way. Also, I had all my early Christmases in a family with many other children, who were and generally remain the focus of attention. So for me it is mainly the festival that celebrates children. While many of us distance ourselves from Christianity, the Bethlehem story is possibly the most tender and charming I have come across in any religious or legendary tradition, and it strikes me as sad that people will pointedly ignore it. I am happy to acknowledge the great festivals of whatever cultural or religious tradition, that are part of our common human heritage, usually for the same reason that other things survive in the folk tradition - because people found enduring meaning in them. I have a copy of 'The Heliand', of the time a thousand years ago of your great Icelandic Sagas which I have also read in translation. The Heliand (The Healer) was a version of the gospel in Saxon reset as a great Northern epic, sung in the mead-halls of Northen Europe as Christianity arrived. It was how many of our European ancestors first heard the story, recast as a contemporary tale about a great healer chieftain, in a land of hillforts and warriors. This is from it: "His mother, that most beautiful woman, took him, wrapped him in clohes ad precious jewels, and then with her two hands laid him gently, the little man, that child, in a fodder-crib, even though he had the power of God, and was the Chieftain of mankind." Why not start another thead, Skarpi, and tell us about folk in Iceland? We'd love to hear. Happy Chistmas to all, Chris |
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22 Dec 07 - 10:22 PM (#2221189) Subject: RE: What is 'your' meaning for christmas ? From: Alice You are correct Skarpi. Too many people get stressed and spend too much money this time of year. I do not worry about doing anything that will stress me at Christmas. I strive to relax and spend time at home and if possible with my son and friends. I start looking forward to Spring as the days begin to get longer! It is like coming out of a dark tunnel of the short days for me. Alice |
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22 Dec 07 - 10:29 PM (#2221192) Subject: RE: What is 'your' meaning for christmas ? From: Alice ha! I just noticed I wrote an oxymoron "strive to relax". LOL |
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23 Dec 07 - 01:08 AM (#2221217) Subject: RE: What is 'your' meaning for christmas ? From: John on the Sunset Coast I, a person who to whom Christmas has no significant meaning, wish you all a Merry Christmas. Whether you believe in Christmas as the birth of a Messiah, or you just like the pageantry of Christmas, or whether to you, like me, it is just another day (or a day off), I wish you a lovely Christmas. Christmas is supposed to signify, amongst its many rationales, peace on earth and good will to men. May that be for all persons wherever they may be. And may that time come sooner rather than later. John |
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23 Dec 07 - 02:22 AM (#2221234) Subject: RE: What is 'your' meaning for christmas ? From: Micca " Now is the dark time and the cold time too gather round, Circle of Friends the comfort of singing voices will see us through until the Dark Time ends" |
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23 Dec 07 - 03:10 AM (#2221239) Subject: RE: What is 'your' meaning for christmas ? From: eddie1 I take my meaning of Christmas where I'm lucky enough to find it. A few days ago I was appearing in my secret identity (at this time of year anyway) at a party for kids living in women's refuges. I was being tailed by a young lad who kept asking when he was getting his present. Lots of "Soons" were finally replaced by a "Now!" He grinned then an expression of doubt flashed over his face. "Santa," he said, "Do we get to take them home?" "Of course you do," I said, "That present is yours!" That got a grin threatening to split his face in half! Only afterwards did I realise he was used to meeting his father in a "Reconciliation Centre" where he had wonderful toys to play with but had to leave them when he went home. I guess that grin has made my Christmas but fortunately my secret identity allows me lots of these experiences. I'm a pretty lucky guy! Eddie |
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23 Dec 07 - 05:22 AM (#2221263) Subject: RE: What is 'your' meaning for christmas ? From: gnu Skarpi... "do you use alcahol around christmas while you are staying and spending this time with your family ?" This year, no. We'll see how it goes... maybe next year. |
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23 Dec 07 - 05:59 AM (#2221270) Subject: RE: What is 'your' meaning for christmas ? From: topical tom You seem to have covered all the bases very well, Skarpi.We do not go to church which doesn't mean that I ignore totally the religious significance of Christmas. We as a family cherish getting together for food and fellowship.We do enjoy wine as well.We do buy gifts for each other but fewer and less expensive as each year comes around. For the most part we celebrate our love for each other and the message of peace and love that is to me the essential spirit of Christmas.We also recognize our good fortune in living in and enjoying the benefits of living in a relatively free and peaceful land. |
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23 Dec 07 - 09:31 AM (#2221322) Subject: RE: What is 'your' meaning for christmas ? From: mack/misophist Being neither Christian nor Pagan, it has no religious meaning for me. Coming from a family that was remarkably lacking in whatever it takes to hold a family together, childhood Christmasses were a time of rancor and strife. I reckon I'm well out of it. My best memories are of earning double time on the years I was lucky enough to work on Christmass day. |
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23 Dec 07 - 11:39 PM (#2221692) Subject: RE: What is 'your' meaning for christmas ? From: GUEST,,gargoyle My flippant posting was intended to stir the kettle.
As a believer - CHRIST is in Christmas. This article pretty sums up what conservative/evangelicals believe. Christ was probably born in the Spring or Summer.
EXCERPTS (condensed) from the Wall Street Journal
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119820996084944523.html
Christmas famously "comes but once a year." In fact, however, it comes twice. The Christmas of the Nativity, the manger and Christ child, the wise men and the star of Bethlehem, "Silent Night" and "Hark the Herald Angels Sing" is one holiday. The Christmas of parties, Santa Claus, evergreens, presents, "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" and "Jingle Bells" is quite another.
But because both celebrations fall on Dec. 25, the two are constantly confused. Religious Christians condemn taking "the Christ out of Christmas," while First Amendment absolutists see a threat to the separation of church and state in every poinsettia on public property and school dramatization of "A Christmas Carol."
The Christmas of parties and presents is far older than the Nativity.
In ancient Rome, this festival was called the Saturnalia and ran from Dec. 17 to Dec. 24. During that week, no work was done, and the time was spent in parties, games, gift giving and decorating the houses with evergreens. (Sound familiar?)
In 354 Pope Liberius decided to add the Nativity to the church calendar. He also decided to celebrate it on Dec. 25.
By the high Middle Ages, Christmas was a rowdy, bawdy time, often inside the church as well as outside it. In France, many parishes celebrated the Feast of the Ass, supposedly honoring the donkey that had brought Mary to Bethlehem. Donkeys were brought into the church and the mass ended with priests and parishioners alike making donkey noises.
With the Reformation, in the English-speaking world, Christmas was abolished in Scotland in 1563 and in England after the Puritans took power in the 1640s. It returned with the Restoration in 1660, but the celebrations never regained their medieval and Elizabethan abandon.
There was no Christmas in Puritan New England, where Dec. 25 was just another working day.
It was New York and its early 19th century literary establishment that created the modern American form of the old Saturnalia. It was a much more family -- and especially child -- centered holiday than the community-wide celebrations of earlier times.
St. Nicolas is the patron saint of New York (the first church built in the city was named for him), and Washington Irving wrote in his "Diedrich Knickerbocker's History of New York" how Sinterklaes, soon anglicized to Santa Claus, rode through the sky in a horse and wagon and went down chimneys to deliver presents to children.
In the 1840s, Dickens wrote "A Christmas Carol," which does not even mention the religious holiday (the word church appears in the story just twice, in passing, the word Nativity never).
Merchants began to emphasize Christmas, decorating stores and pushing the idea of Christmas presents for reasons having nothing whatever to do with religion, except, perhaps, the worship of mammon.
In 1870, President Ulysses S. Grant signed into law a bill making the secular Christmas a civil holiday.
So for those worried about the First Amendment, there's a very easy way to distinguish between the two Christmases. If it isn't mentioned in the Gospels of Luke and Mark, then it is not part of the Christian holiday. Or we could just change the name of the secular holiday back to what it was 2000 years ago.
Sincerely, |
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24 Dec 07 - 04:27 AM (#2221758) Subject: RE: What is 'your' meaning for christmas ? From: jacqui.c I see the day as a time for sharing with family and friends. I do think that there is too much commercialism nowadays - I know that my grandson will have so many presents that he won't know what to play with first. However, seeing his delight in even the simplest of gifts gives a lot of pleasure. We have been raised to know the holiday as Christmas but I think that, even without the religious connotations, there would be a time of coming together and celebrating at what is, in the northern hemisphere, the darkest and coldest time of the year, but with the prospect of a new beginning coming in. |
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24 Dec 07 - 05:34 PM (#2222103) Subject: RE: What is 'your' meaning for christmas ? From: black walnut Hi Scarpi! Good question. Linus tells "the true meaning of Christmas". I'm with Linus. But I like the tree and prezzies and turkey and family and snow...too! ~b.w. |
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24 Dec 07 - 06:34 PM (#2222129) Subject: RE: What is 'your' meaning for christmas ? From: Megan L Skarpi I posted this somewhere else but it probably belongs here. When I was young we didn't do Christmas if you were a RC you went to midnight mass if you were protestant or drunk you went to a watchnight service. When we came home from church I would be given one present to open, the next morning I might get a couple more after dad got home from work. the presents were never big in fact the one I remember best was twelve peny bars of Cadbury chocolate which were hidden around the house and clues left for me to find them. Hogmany however was a different matter everyone got thier nerdy (probably spelt that wrong)fairin. The house was cleaned from top to bottom, all debts were cleared and the table was groaning under the weight of steak pies tatties and peas and bowls of trifle. As the first bell rang a train would pass and the warning crackers were laid on the line you would hear the bang bang bang bang as it passed. Then all the ships on the Clyde would begin to sound thier Whistles. The tallest darkest haired person you could find would go outside just before the bells carrying a lump of coal and some black bun or shortbread and a bottle of whisky and would enter the house on the last bell to bring good fortune for the comming year. It was always a rush to open the front and back windows to let the new year in and the auld year out for youth and age cannot use the same portal. On the last bell one of our neighbours who was a piper would strike up and march round the circle of street that surrounded our scheme playing he was tea tottal but there was always one of the men willing to down the pipers dram. Everyone would toast the new year with either a nip of whisky or sherry weel except for us bairns we were on the raspberry cordial. Back then it was a nip a true nip glass would have held a mans thmb to the length of a well cut nail. Then folk joined hands to sing Auld Lang Syne and another toast "Tae absent friens" after that no one was allowed from the house until a hearty meal had been eaten. My brothers would then leave to go first footing others while our door never closed till the last folk frae the street had eaten and wandered on to other houses. Everyone had their party piece and the night passed in story telling poetry music and song till folk began tae tak the gate ye could hear them wending thier way home singing "We're no awa tae bide awa" |
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24 Dec 07 - 06:38 PM (#2222130) Subject: Lyr Add: HERE'S TO THE YEAR THAT'S AWA (J Dunlop) From: Megan L written by John Dunlop (1755-1820) who was Lord Provost of Glasgow around 1796. Here's to the year that's awa ! Here's to the year that's awa ! We'll drink it in strong and in sma'! And here's to ilk bonnie young lassie we lo'ed While swift flew the year that's awa; And here's to ilk bonnie young lassie we lo'ed While swift flew the year that's awa. Here's to the sodger who bled, And the sailor who bravely did fa'; Their fame is alive, though their spirits are fled On the wings o the year that's awa; Their fame is alive, though their spirits are fled On the wings o the year that's awa. Here's to the friends we can trust When the storms of adversity blaw; May they live in our song and be nearest our heart, Nor depart like the year that's awa; May they live in our song and be nearest our heart, Nor depart like the year that's awa. Meaning of unusual words: awa=away sma'=small ilk=every fa'=fall |
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24 Dec 07 - 06:42 PM (#2222133) Subject: Lyr Add: WE'RE NO' AWA' TAE BIDE AWA' From: Megan L We're No' Awa' Tae Bide Awa' Chorus: For we're no' awa' tae bide awa', For we're no' awa tae le'e ye, For we're no' awa' tae bide awa', We'll aye come back an' see ye. As I gaed doon by Wilsontoon I met auld Johnnie Scobbie, Says I to him will ye hae a hauf, Says he, "Man! That's my hobby." Chorus: So we had a hauf an' anither hauf, And then we had anither, When he got fou' he shouted "Hoo! It's Carnwath Mill for ever." Chorus: We wandered doon the street again We cleekit unco cheery, When John got hame his wife cried shame, I see you're enjoyin' your hobby. Chorus: Of a' the friens that ere I kenned, There's nane like Johnnie Scobbie, His hert is leal, he's true as steel, An' a hauf is aye his hobby. Chorus: So whenever friendly friens may meet, Wherever Scots foregather, We'll raise our gless, we'll shout Hurroo, It's Carnwath Mill for ever. Chorus: Meaning of unusual words: tae bide awa'=to stay away aye=always gaed=went hauf=a measure of alcohol fou'=drunk cleekit=walk arm in arm unco=extremely kenned=knew leal=loyal Ok I'm awa tae ma bed noo. Awra best tae you and your whitever ye may ken And heres tae hope anither year, we'll aw be friens again |
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24 Dec 07 - 06:51 PM (#2222136) Subject: RE: What is 'your' meaning for christmas ? From: Emma B New Years Eve was always a big family gathering. My father's brothers in law were all bell ringers and before midnight would depart to ring in the New Year, the rest of us would gather around the old piano and sing songs - anything from traditional folk to music hall and 'hit parade'. First footing was a must. Out of the back door carrying salt and coal and then people would spill onto the street as the bells pealed to let their dark haired 'visitors in again. One of the most magical Christmasses I remember was spent with friends on a small (3miles x 1mile) island of the SW coast of Ireland. At dusk a candle was lit in every window (whether Christian or no) to guide the Christ child across the water. We walked across the centuries old mass track above the whole twinkling island to attend Midnight Mass in Irish and then on st Stephen's Day anyone fit enough to walk whatever their age came to a communal ceilidh by the harbour usually carrying food and heaters! A 'tour of houses' on the previous day had amassed a 'collection' of whatever people could afford to provide copious liquid refreshment! |
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25 Dec 07 - 01:55 PM (#2222420) Subject: RE: What is 'your' meaning for christmas ? From: Mrs.Duck We do all of the above - spend too much, eat too much, drink too much but despite all that it is primarily a family time and we are all together on christmas day and enjoy eachothers company. Some stress maybe but at the end a lovely relaxing day. |
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25 Dec 07 - 09:05 PM (#2222537) Subject: RE: What is 'your' meaning for christmas ? From: Joe_F Gargoyle: Mr Gordon's statement that Dickens's story "does not even mention the religious holiday" is mistaken: "There are many things from which I might have derived good, by which I have not profited, I dare say," returned the nephew. "Christmas among the rest. But I am sure I have always thought of Christmas time, when it has come round -- apart from the veneration due to its sacred name and origin, if anything belonging to it can be apart from that -- as a good time: a kind, forgiving, charitable, pleasant time: the only time I know of, in the long calendar of the year, when men and women seem by one consent to open their shut-up hearts freely, and to think of people below them as if they really were fellow-passengers to the grave, and not another race of creatures bound on other journeys. And therefore, uncle, though it has never put a scrap of gold or silver in my pocket, I believe that it has done me good, and will do me good; and I say, God bless it!" It would seem that, to Scrooge's nephew at least, the secular holiday is subsumed within the sacred. |
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26 Dec 07 - 02:26 PM (#2222810) Subject: RE: What is 'your' meaning for christmas ? From: ClaireBear I think I have a timing issue with the secular world on the subject of Christmas. I love Christmas -- I do, really -- but I think it begins on, well, Christmas. In my ideal world, the period before Christmas would be an introspective, solemn period. I like, when feasible, to fast during the day in the Advent season, only eating after sunse. (However, I don't like to point out that I'm doing it, so sometimes it's not feasible to refuse food.) Advent is a very spiritual time for me. Any preparation for Christmas -- baking, gift-making -- I prefer to undertake in silence or while listening to some wonderful music, like Praetorius' polychoral Christmas music. I try not to shop, or at least not much. (Amazon helps me get away with avoiding malls). I don't decorate early -- never before December 15th, often later, and this year the tree went up on Christmas Eve. I prefer to have a particularly austere Christmas Eve, up to and including the late-night church service, after which I go home and wrap gifts, again indulging in Praetorius, Handel, or... Then, on Christmas itself, when the presents are given and the food comes out, the upwelling of joy is truly a genuine thing that everyone feels. We start with a family Christmas -- we never have guests, or travel ourselves, if we can help it. After Christmas come parties. Over the following two weeks the celebration continues, winding down organically around 12th night. However, while I think Christmas begins on Christmas and ends in the middle of January, almost everyone around me -- even most of the congregation at my church -- seems to think that it begins on December 1 and ends at midnight on Christmas. Just as I'm feeling ready to enjoy the twinkle of Christmas lights, having assiduously avoided them all through the pre-Christmas season, the folks around me are turning theirs off. Here at work, the "Christmas party" was on the 13th of December when I'd rather have stayed home, and today on the 26th when I'm feeling ready to think about distributing gifts (I have tins of biscotti in the car to devide up) and offering Christmas greetings, the lights and decorations are already coming off the walls. Fortunately, I do have like-minded friends -- a few -- who leave me alone during Advent but host post-Christmas gatherings. This year I'm going wassailing on December 29th and attending a 12th night party on January 5. But in general, even church-related Christmas social things are before the 25th of December. Being in the choir makes it worse...frantic preparations for Christmas services, when all I really want to do is go home and sit in the dark. Does anyone else here feel oddly out of step with the holiday calendar -- loving the holiday but hating the timing? (Sorry I'm late, but of course it never occurred to me to open this thread before Christmas! LOL.) Claire |
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27 Dec 07 - 10:15 AM (#2223190) Subject: RE: What is 'your' meaning for christmas ? From: black walnut Claire - I can understand what yo9u're saying. Advent is very important in our congregation and it is reflected in the music and the lighting of the candles and the expectency of the celebration to come. On Christmas eve there are 4 packed services, followed by a party at midnight, and a bright and joyful service the next morning. While I'm not as consistent as you about avoiding shopping and speding time alone instead for reflection - it is easier now that our kids are older to at least have a calmer Advent. This week there are many family get-togethers planned, with lots of food and singing and playing together. ~b.w. |
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27 Dec 07 - 08:49 PM (#2223487) Subject: RE: What is 'your' meaning for christmas ? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Claire - I can "identify/relate" to nearly all you have written. Fasting (no one should know), secular denial, anti-commercialism, silence, thankfulness for the bounty bestowed.
For me ... frequently, cards are not sent until February - frequently July, and sometimes even August. Many, many times the cards are not opened until Summer and a responce given.
ONLY, this year, has it occured to ....to pull out the paper-cutter....remove the pretty-pictures and return them at the postcard rate with message attached and donate the remainder to the Salvation Army.
I will try it. Cards have not yet been sent. Maybe, send last year's pictures and see if they recognize?
Sincerely, |
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27 Dec 07 - 10:45 PM (#2223532) Subject: RE: What is 'your' meaning for christmas ? From: KT Claire, I love your desciption. I don't mind the timing the way it is as much as I mind the stress we create around the whole season and the lack of stillness we allow for ourselves in so doing. I think what we're looking for is the peace and the quietude you seem to understand so well. For me, I usually take the tree down before New Year's Day, but I realize it's because I am trying to restore the sense of harmony that was displaced by all of the craziness. I've never really considered it before, but celebrating through 12th Night is a way to enjoy the joys of the season without the stress we place on ourselves to have it all over by the 26th. One of my most treasured memories of Christmas was a time I had done all that I was going to do for the holiday, very early on. Then I spent the solstice in a cabin on the shore of the Pacific Ocean, reflecting on the season. Like you Gargoyle, I never send cards before Christmas anymore. I really like your idea of recycling them into postcards! KT |
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28 Dec 07 - 09:18 PM (#2224071) Subject: RE: What is 'your' meaning for christmas ? From: Joe_F "A deliberately austere Christmas would be an absurdity. The whole point of Christmas is that it is a debauch -- as it was probably long before the birth of Christ was arbitrarily fixed at that date. Children know this very well. From their point of view Christmas is not a day of temperate enjoyment, but of fierce pleasures which they are quite willing to pay for with a certain amount of pain. The awakening at about 4 am to inspect your stocking; the quarrels over toys all through the morning, and the exciting whiffs of mincemeat and sage-and-onions escaping from the kitchen door; the battle with enormous platefuls of turkey, and the pulling of the wishbone; the darkening of the windows and the entry of the flaming plum pudding; the hurry to make sure that everyone has a piece on his plate while the brandy is still alight; the momentary panic when it is rumoured that Baby has swallowed the threepenny bit; the stupor all through the afternoon; the Christmas cake with almond icing an inch thick; the peevishness next morning and the castor oil on December 27th -- it is an up-and-down business, by no means all pleasant, but well worth while for the sake of its more dramatic moments." -- George Orwell (27 December 1946). |