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23 Dec 07 - 01:39 PM (#2221424) Subject: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Folk Form # 1 What can we do to stop discrimination against Trotskyites? Trotskyphobia is rampant throughout the UK at the moment. As soon as an employer finds out that someone is a member of a Trotskyite party, they cannot get jobs, they can lose jobs they already have, Higher education does not want to know them, and they can come under the surveillance of the secret service. The vast majority of Trotskyites are decent hard working people who want nothing better than to live their lives peacefully with their neighbours. They are very public spirited and frequently are active within the local community, especially trade unions. They are a credit to this country. Just think how culturally impoverished this country would be without Vanessa and Corim Redgrave, or how ill informed we would be without the journalism of the late Paul Foot, or how starved of intellectual nourishment we would be without the speeches and writings of Gerry Healy, who has also passed on. Trotskyites have made a valuable contribution to this country. The discrimination they face day in and day out should be recognised and efforts to stamp out Trotskyphobia should be made in all levels of society. Maybe an anti-Trotskyphobia unit should be set up by Ken Livingstone. Stamp out Trotskyphobia in London and maybe the rest of the country would follow suit. |
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23 Dec 07 - 01:43 PM (#2221431) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Amos Curious, RR: what does a Trotskyite believe? What are the tenets of his credo? A |
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23 Dec 07 - 01:52 PM (#2221435) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Big Al Whittle just carry an ice pick to be on the safe side...... |
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23 Dec 07 - 02:01 PM (#2221442) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Uncle_DaveO Amos: Oversimplifying, I'm sure, but Trotsky advocated communism/socialism, achieved by peaceful and constitutional political means, as opposed to violent revolution. He was purged by the Bolsheviks, and eventually assassinated in Mexico by Bolshevik agents. Dave Oesterreich |
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23 Dec 07 - 02:05 PM (#2221444) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Uncle_DaveO Here's what Wikipedia has on TROTSKYISM Dave Oesterreich |
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23 Dec 07 - 02:42 PM (#2221470) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: John on the Sunset Coast I guess RR (to paraphrase John Lenin) just wants us to give Trotskyism a chance. Oh, did I spell Lennon wrong? |
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23 Dec 07 - 03:05 PM (#2221481) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Skivee Don't let Groucho catch you making that mistake |
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23 Dec 07 - 03:38 PM (#2221489) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: robomatic nothing like a useless discredited outmoded social system to perk up the ol' equalization juices. don't forget to treat mercatilists as fellows while you're at it. |
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23 Dec 07 - 03:41 PM (#2221491) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Jim Carroll "Don't let Groucho catch you making that mistake" My friend Tom Munnelly, who died a couple o months ago, planned his own funeral, and on the 'order of service' pamphlet he had printed: "outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend; inside a dog it's too dark to read". Grouch Marx. As we left the service (unusually a non-religious one held in the local church; so respected was Tom by the whole community) a friend remarked; "It's nice to to see a Marxist quote in a Catholic Church - it makes you feel as if you're getting somewhere at last". Jim Carroll |
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23 Dec 07 - 04:28 PM (#2221515) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,albert Trotsky was one of the main architects of the October Revolution of 1917 which finished the Tsar .The Bolsheviks were opposed to the First World War which had cost many millions of Russian lives as well as millions of other nationalities.They simply stopped fighting the German army and ended the war in the east while spreading revolutionary propoganda among both German and Russian soldiers. Trotsky also argued that unless the Revolution spread to Germany and other countries it would be overcome. Trotsky was also the most prominent socialist opponent of Stalin and did his utmost to oppose his Russian chauvanism and increasingly oppressive rule ...and it was the Trotskyists inside Russia who were the first victims of the Stalinist Terror in the late 1920s and early 1930s. Over a dozen members of his family were murdered,executed ,imprisoned or made to disappear as Stalin wreaked his revenge on Trotsky for his opposition to Stalinism. Trotsky was murdered in 1940 by Stalin's agents but Trotsky's belief in socialism from below and the need to form united fronts against fascism still have a great deal to teach us in our modern world. albert |
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23 Dec 07 - 04:55 PM (#2221531) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: John on the Sunset Coast some fer instances pls.; ideas that have not already failed pls. |
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23 Dec 07 - 05:03 PM (#2221537) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: dick greenhaus T-T-T-TROTSKY T-T-T-Trotsky, beautiful Trotsky, You're the B-B-B-Bolshevik that I adore And when the Red Flag flies over the Soviet I'll be waiting at the K-K-K-Kremlin door - League for Socialist Action, Vancouver, 1975. @USSR @political @parody filename[ TTROTSKY or THE MAN WHO BLOWS UP RAILROAD TRAINS FOR TROTSKY As I walk along the Kremlin with a highly furtive air You can hear the serfs declare, "He must be a commissionnaire!" You may hear them sigh, but I won't confess You may hear them try, but they'll never guess I'm the man who blows up railroad trains for Trotsky! @parody @political filename[ BROKEBN2 |
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23 Dec 07 - 05:24 PM (#2221546) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Richard Bridge Surely he was not a Bolshevik but a Menshevik? John - at least that credo did not lead to the threat of extinction of life on the planet. And of course Trotskyite beliefs have never been tried so they cannot be said to have failed. |
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23 Dec 07 - 07:15 PM (#2221588) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Big Al Whittle You can't blame people for not wanting the Trots.... |
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23 Dec 07 - 07:51 PM (#2221605) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: McGrath of Harlow Your satirical intent seems to have gone over people's heads, Rockin' Reeler... |
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23 Dec 07 - 08:01 PM (#2221610) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Sorcha Aw shucks. I thought this was gonna be about fears of 13 Trotting Trolls. :( |
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23 Dec 07 - 08:20 PM (#2221613) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Art Thieme This is a red troll thread and I am out of here. S. Allende was voted in, and then... |
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23 Dec 07 - 09:04 PM (#2221632) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Amos I had an aunt who worked for him before he was assassinated. I nver fully understood the context of the man and his times, although I knew the outlines of his history. Thanks, Dave. I was wondering what the original poster had to say from the view of (presumably) a modern adherent. A |
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23 Dec 07 - 09:31 PM (#2221646) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Joe Offer Hmmm. I was tempted to say, "Trotskyphobia? Isn't the the fear of Friday the Thirteenth??" Well, maybe I shouldn't. I do wonder if Communism might have been a success if Trotsky had prevailed. He seemed to embody the best of Marx and Engels. Trouble is, the Trotskyites were too damn idealistic - you can trust idealists only so far. Still, I find comfort in the first post, which says, "Trotskyphobia is rampant throughout the UK at the moment." Where there is Trotskyphobia, there must be Trotskyites. I had thought that Trotskyism was long dead. Can't say that I've ever seen a Trotskyite here in California. Long live the idealism of Trotsky - but temper it with pragmatism, please. -Joe- So, when do we start singing The Internationale? |
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24 Dec 07 - 12:34 AM (#2221714) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: dick greenhaus GPU When I was a lad in nineteen six I joined a band of Bolsheviks I read the Manifesto and the Kapital And I even learned to sing the Internationale I sang that song in a voice so true That now I'm in the prisons of the GPU . When Lenin's boys insurrection made I found myself on a barricade At Kerensky's troops I aimed my gun And I never stopped shooting 'till the Reds had won. I shot that gun with an aim so true etc. When NEP was started and Lenin died I found myself on Trotsky's side Well, all went well 'till twenty-eight And then I was forced to capitulate. Well, my capitulation had a ring so true, etc. Now, since that time I've had no peace My steps have been dogged by the Secret Police. I denounced the traitors, time and again I denounced the traitors with tongue and pen. And my denunciations had a ring so true, etc. Now revisionists all, wherever you may be If you want to be a success, like me --- Confess to terrorism and espionage To Counterrevolution and sabotage. Adhere to the line of Lenin, too And you'll wind up in the prisons of the GPU. Note: Dick Eney has pointed out that the Russian pronunciation of the acronym GPU--- Gay Pay Oo---may not be clear to non-Russians. from Glazer Ballads for Sectarians @Russian @rebel tune of Gilbert and Sullivan "When I was a Lad" filename[ GAYPAYU RG |
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24 Dec 07 - 01:28 AM (#2221725) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,albert Trotsky was not a menshevik but did not join the Bolsheviks until 1917. He became the organiser of the Red Army which held at bay several TsaristRussian armies as well as the many Western armies sent to invade Russia in the aftermath of the October Revolution. albert |
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24 Dec 07 - 01:38 AM (#2221727) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Folk Form # 1 McGraph of Harlow. At last.....someone got it. |
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24 Dec 07 - 05:39 AM (#2221779) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Big Al Whittle Its a bit cerebral..... |
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24 Dec 07 - 05:49 AM (#2221782) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: George Papavgeris Should be OK in a bowl with milk then. |
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24 Dec 07 - 06:06 AM (#2221789) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Folk Form # 1 Weelittledrummer, I'm a cerebral kind of guy. |
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24 Dec 07 - 07:53 AM (#2221821) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Les in Chorlton Trotsky did things and wrote things then he was murdered. Within the British left lots of "Trotskist" groups have come and gone. Probably the most successful was Militant - the group that "entered" the Labour Party for years. At one point it was said they had more full time workers than the Labour Party. They always claimed they were not a party when clearly they were. They were chucked out by the Party when it was led by Neil Kinnock. I seem to remember that Gerry Healy's Workers Revolutionary Party fell apart after allegations of sexual harassment by Healy on his admin. staff. The other big group are the Socialist Workers Party. The have existed since around 1972. Inspite of 30 odd years of organising the workers nobody much votes for them. They then got into bed with George Galloway to create Respect, inspite of the fact that George is an unreconstructed Stalinist and proud of it. Needless to say George has got fed up with the SWP and tried to chuck them out. The Trots have always spent a lot of time fighting each other and forming smaller and smaller groups. Some entertainment can be had by following the blogs of contending groups via Google or by watching that bit in the Life of Brian about the Peoples Front for the Liberation of Judea et al. Yours in Comradely Struggle Lev |
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24 Dec 07 - 08:26 AM (#2221833) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,david I thought it wouldn't take long for the red baiters to emerge on this thread! The Socialist Workers Party has done many good things in its existence.The first that comes to mind was organising against the fascist National Front in the late 1970s when the fascists gained over 100000 votes in London and seemed to be on a roll. The SWP helped to initiate both the Anti Nazi League and Rock Against Racism which led to hundreds of thousands of people being actively involved in opposing the thugs of the National Front who were set on terrorising black and brown people. And it was Blair Peach an East End teacher and SWP member who was killed by SPG police when he along with thousands of others went to Southall to prevent a march by the National Front. The SWP also more recently helped to form the Stop The War campaign which organised the million plus march on the streets of London in the weeks leading up to the attack on Iraq . david |
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24 Dec 07 - 08:50 AM (#2221844) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Les in Chorlton David, I am not a red baiter I am a Socialist. Lots of people were involved in opposing the Front, supporting the ANL and RAR and the STW campaign and most were not SWP members. Most Socialists are outside the SWP. Why is that? 30 years of attacking Socialists outside the SWP hasn't helped. But how comfortable are you with George now? Les |
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24 Dec 07 - 09:01 AM (#2221849) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Big Al Whittle Congratulations on stopping the war. |
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24 Dec 07 - 09:11 AM (#2221857) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Les in Chorlton It's worth remembering that most Socialists are outside the SWP as are most Trotskists. |
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24 Dec 07 - 06:32 PM (#2222126) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,david I am all in favour of as many socialists as possible.....we will never get socialism without socialists! I seem to remember that Neil Kinnock [now Baron Kinnock of Bedwellty ] was a rebel and a socialist...he turned into a right wing party functionary and is now a despised figure in Wales...that is what membership of the Labour Party can do to a socialist! david |
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24 Dec 07 - 06:42 PM (#2222134) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Richard Bridge If Wikipedia is correct - "With the Mensheviks and the Bolsheviks clearly diverging, Russian Mensheviks and non-factional social democrats returning from European and American exile in spring-summer of 1917 were forced to take sides. Some re-joined the Mensheviks. Some, like Alexandra Kollontai, joined the Bolsheviks directly. A significant number, including Leon Trotsky and Adolf Joffe, joined the non-factional Petrograd-based anti-war group called Mezhraiontsy, which merged with the Bolsheviks in August 1917. A small but influential group of social democrats associated with Maxim Gorky's newspaper Novaya Zhizn (New Life) refused to join either party." Accordingly Trotsky was a menshenvik until August 1917. |
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25 Dec 07 - 04:36 AM (#2222270) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Les in Chorlton David,David tell us about George ..... |
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25 Dec 07 - 05:38 AM (#2222288) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,david Ah George, There is a whole lot of stuff about the Galloway/Respect dispute on the net.Readers can go to Socialist Worker for one side of the argument or to Respect Renewel for the Galloway version . david |
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25 Dec 07 - 05:49 AM (#2222294) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Joe Offer Damn. I hate it when I don't get jokes. And I still don't get it... Sincerely, -Joe- |
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25 Dec 07 - 09:26 AM (#2222336) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: McGrath of Harlow Think "Islamophobia"... |
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25 Dec 07 - 09:54 AM (#2222346) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,david To Richard Trotsky did not belong to the Mensheviks.He joined the Bolshevik Party led by Lenin in the summer of 1917. Trotsky was associated with the socialist grouping called Mezhraionstsy which had existed in Petrograd since 1913 and which kept itself independent of both the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks. The Mezhraionstsy joined the Bolsheviks in July 1917 bringing about 4000 members to join the Bolshevik Party which had about 400000 members. [ source" Trotsky :Towards October," Tony Cliff published by Bookmarks in 1989 ]. david |
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25 Dec 07 - 10:12 AM (#2222349) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Riginslinger '"outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend; inside a dog it's too dark to read".' Grouch Marx. "...a friend remarked; "It's nice to to see a Marxist quote in a Catholic Church - it makes you feel as if you're getting somewhere at last"." That's funny! |
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25 Dec 07 - 02:39 PM (#2222436) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Les in Chorlton No, David, why did the SWP ever get into bed with George? |
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25 Dec 07 - 06:51 PM (#2222505) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,david Come on Les, dont play the dullard...with New Labour galloping to the right and being the party of war and privatisation a yawning gap has opened up to the left of New Labour...all the mainstream parties actually support the free market agenda and even the Liberals who opposed the war until the invasion started then supported the attack on Iraq. Galloway was an outspoken and effective critic of the invasion and got thrown out of New Labour for his anti war stance.He has been villified and attacked ever since and the formation of RESPECT out of the anti war mood in the country. When it was founded the three aims were 1 Opposition to the US/UK invasion and all the barbarism that it entailed. 2 Support for civil rights here at home as it was clear that civil rights were bound to be attacked . 3Support for ethnic minority groups who it was clear would be scapegoated by the government,the media and by the BNP and the far right. Galloway had the bottle to stand up to the warmongers when almost the whole of parliament failed the test and voted for war [Plaid Cymru MPs were among the small number of honourable exceptions]. The disagreements between him and the SWP now do not diminish his courage and outspokeness five years ago or the support the SWP gave him then. Les,you must have known of the above as it is no state secret so why get coy and ask the question even? david |
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25 Dec 07 - 07:14 PM (#2222512) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Stringsinger Dick: "When I grow to old to fight, I'll become a Trotskyite. When I grow to old to see, A "Forwards" reader, I will be" Frank Hamilton |
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25 Dec 07 - 07:51 PM (#2222527) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Les in Chorlton Good case Dave, I think it's about judgement, George never had any he was a pro-soviet Stalinist. |
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25 Dec 07 - 08:24 PM (#2222531) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Richard Bridge David, I would like to read both views of the Respect argument. Can yo be more precise with the links please? |
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26 Dec 07 - 05:20 AM (#2222611) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,david To Richard Just type in Socialist Worker on google and go to its on line section and there you will find several articles about the split inside Respect. For an opposite view go to the" Respect Renewal" site which is supportive of Galloway.However,there is also the "Respect" website itself which has several articles on the dispute. Contrary to what you may read elsewhere the Respect Coalition is still going and the SWP is a part of it with the founding aims of opposing the war and neo liberalism still at its core. david |
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26 Dec 07 - 07:22 AM (#2222636) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Les in Chorlton The SWP have existed as the best organised group on the left of politics. They play almost no role in the actual democratic process because nobody much ever votes for them. They spring to life from time in organisations like CND because lots of people in the Labour and Trade Union movement are pro CND etc. They have been busy in the Anti-war movement - a movement full of most people from the left to, and beyond the SDP. This does not represent support for SWP policies. No doubt the SWP see these movements as a recruiting ground and nowt wrong with that. George is and was always a fool. His support for the old Soviet Union is all the evidence needed, isn't it? As far as most of us can see he has no real respect for party politics, this is a tenable position, not one I support. He must have spent most of his life despising the SWP and it's historic criticism of the Soviet Union, the CP and their fellow travellers inside the Labour Party. The historic problem for people in all far left parties has been internal division, splits and no real support anywhere. So, after 30 odd years of SWPing they get into bed with George. I bet that caused a split didn't it? Maybe just a small one? Real SWP, Continuity SWP, Surreal SWP? |
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26 Dec 07 - 02:27 PM (#2222811) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,david Dear Les The stuff you have written is fantasy...the sort of thing that a Daily Mail staff writer who is told to write a hatchet job on the SWP would write. I don't have a brief to write a defence about Galloway but in the period leading up to the invasion and indeed after the war was unleashed, Galloway was the outstanding parliamentarian to oppose the war.He did it in parliament,on television,in street meetings and in mass demonstrations. While the New Labour leadership lied their collective heads off,ably supported by the media and so called experts Galloway spoke the truth about the barbarism about to be unleashed. As for the SWP not once has it attempted to substitute itself for the mass anti war movement.Instead it threw itself into building that movement.A movement that led to a million strong anti war march on the eve of the invasion which gutted any Blair propoganda that the country was behind the US/UK invasion. As I mentioned in a previous posting New Labour has abandoned any pretence at socialism or the redistribution of wealth and is now well and truly in the service of the arms dealers and manufacturers,the city spivs ,the fat cats and the privateers. While it sacks and imposes wage restraints on public sector workers it has allowed the salaries of the richest in the land to go throught the roof....these are the people who have received pay increases year on year for the past 20 years of some 20 percent per annum. It is this situation which has brought about the formation of RESPECT....it is an attempt to win working class people away from its traditional loyalty to New Labour. And there have been some successes most notably in East London where Galloway defeated the sitting New Labour loyalist overturning a 20000 majority in the process.Or take Michael Lavellette in Preston who is a city cllr and who is providing an alternative to New Labour. Of course there are problems which the SWP/RESPECT dispute has worsened but the alternative is to see a vicious BNP break into Labour heartlands as voters turn away from New Labour. david |
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26 Dec 07 - 04:11 PM (#2222854) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Hollowfox As a Trotskyist friend told me in the 1970's,"A Trotskyist is like a Trotskyite as much as a Socialist is like a socialite." Linguistic hairsplitting to all but those close to the argument. |
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26 Dec 07 - 05:18 PM (#2222890) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Richard Bridge What does that mean Hollowfox? |
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26 Dec 07 - 06:03 PM (#2222907) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Richard Bridge Thank you David for the further help finding information. It is a difficult arena. Plainly there is a need for opposition to the brutality of capitalism, and there is no significant such opposition in the main parliamentary parties. SWP (and my memories of student politics many years go) however leave an impression of an absence of transparency and democracy. Galloway, however, appears to be veering towards theocracy (but of a different form to that in the USA) and plutocracy. He has balls of steel and one has to admire his chutzpah, but the more he pushes towards his cult of personality the more one has to worry about his funding sources (not only his connections or otherwise to Iraqi oil finance but also his connections or otherwise to Texan oil interests), and who pays for and chooses his very expensive suits. |
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26 Dec 07 - 11:45 PM (#2223027) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: dick greenhaus If history has taught us anything, it's that all these "isms" are oversimplifications, and don't work in their "pure" forms. The US hasn't been purely capitalist for almost a century, now. |
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27 Dec 07 - 05:49 AM (#2223089) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Les in Chorlton David, "Dear Les The stuff you have written is fantasy..." No, it isn't. When the SWP function alone nobody much votes for them. True or false? From time to time they join, as the have the right, organisations like CND, RAR etc. They are well organised and they make contributions as the have with the Stop the war Campaigne. True or false? George Galloway was a pro-Soviet Stalinist when nearly everybody else, including the SWP had more sense and were not. True or false? George said a lot about the War and a lot of people including most of the rank and file of the Labour Party agreed with him. Whilst criticing the war in Afganistan George does often mention the role of his old mates the Soviets in that country does he? The biggest organisations that fight the BNP are the 3 big parties they organise and stand against the BNP in more or less every seat in every election in the country.I understand the BNP are in the middle of yet another row and split. As for the Labour Party moving to the right, absolutely true. 4 or 5 elections with ever so slightly socialist policies gave us 4 Thatcher Governments. 3 years of Blair gave 2 landlsides and 3 Governements. Tony blew it on the war. Bad judgement. Getting in to bed with George also bad judgement |
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27 Dec 07 - 06:37 AM (#2223105) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Big Al Whittle 'Tony blew it on the war.' Depends on your point of view. The alternatives are stark once you attain power. Something Galloway and the unelectables never have to bother with.You can distance yourself from US foreign policy, like Wilson did, and see the country's ecomomy hit the skids, out of the spitefullness of of our dearest ally. (And what a lot of support that gained Wilson from the Trotnits!) Or you can do what Blair did. Either way the trots and anybody else into vanity politics won't be your friend. A labour government looks out for poor people in ways that a tory one doesn't. Galloway, Vanessa Redgrave etc aren't poor - so that's another thing they don't have to bother about. They can rip away at the fabric of a labour government to their hearts content. Despicable is the word. Galloway is a vainglorious self publicist. Kept afloat in the political system by the gullible and self deluding - and very comfortably off lefties |
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27 Dec 07 - 06:42 AM (#2223106) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,david Dear Les, The SWP and its forerunners the International Socialists were not formed to be an electoral machine. How could it have been when the Labour Party was so dominant as well as being loaded with trade union funding. In the early 1960s the International Socialists probably had around a few hundred members or supporters across Britain. Don't forget Trotsky had been hounded and villified [and eventually murdered ] by both Stalin representing official communism and the mainstream media. What the IS in the 1960s was to build the Vietnam Solidarity Campaign in this country as a way of opposing American Imperialism which was slaughtering the people of Vietnam . The SWP was formed in the late 1970s when the long boom years of the post war period was coming to an end.Not the best of times to stand and win an election when the Labour Party was becoming so discredited among working class people and millions were being thrown onto the dole as Thatcher showed us what class war is all about. I think you are totally wrong to say that the three big parties are the main opponents of the BNP. The tories still play the race card when it suits them but New Labour has continually kow towed to the racist agenda...the BNP loved Blunkett for example calling him a recruiting sargeant for their party. And to see New Labour hounding refugees across the country is truely despicable and disgusting.Where I live in South Wales a Pakistani christian family has just been arrested in a dawn raid for deportation . Les you call yourself a socialist but you dont seem to have any faith in what socialism is about.New Labour came into existence as the gravedigger of capitalism but under Blair and now Brown it is a party of grovelling support for the worst excesses of capitalism. Around a million Iraqis have been slaughtered in the hell unleashed by Bush and Blair.Another 4 million are living as refugees.The children of Iraq are malnourished and the standard of living is now back to a primitive level. Les you call that a" bad judgement."Its a war crime! The Swp may have made plenty of mistakes but the real criminals and gangsters are elsewhere and doing very nicely thank you. David |
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27 Dec 07 - 07:10 AM (#2223112) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Les in Chorlton David, I think I agree with much if what you say, though not all, and I note that you decided not to respond to most if my statements. The big three still do more to oppose the BNP than the SWP. The central problem for groups like the SWP is that so long as they stay small and have no demoecratic functions in terms of elected members in councils and such like they cannot be accused of doing anything wrong. The problem for the Labour Party is 1. It has to get elected and 2. It has to do things. I think somebody said the 1983 Labour Manifesto was the most socialist and the longest suicide note in history. How long will it take to change things for the better? Many on the left were glad to see the end of a number of Labour Governments. They said a good spell of the Tories wouls convince working people of the evils of capitalism and hasten socialism. It didn't. When 4 or 5 million people were unemployed people continued to support Thatcher. |
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27 Dec 07 - 09:57 AM (#2223173) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,david Oh here goes again! George Galloway was an elected member of the Labour Party and has a long record of defeating electorally his opponents including Roy Jenkins and Oona King. There are several reasons why he is hated in the media and his pro soviet stance are not amonst them. He is hated because he openly supports the cause of a free Palestine .Secondly he is a hated figure because he is an outspoken opponent of American imperialism in particular its invasion of Iraq and its threatened attack on Iran. The SWP has always called the old soviet regime a state capitalist country where the workers had no control and were exploited and oppressed by its rulers like Stalin.The Trotskists were among the first to be sent to the Gulags in their thousands after opposing Stalin's policies and rule. However,soviet rule in Russia ended in 1989 and Galloway has proved to be a most vocal and able opponent of the pro war hawks both in London and Washington.We saw that when he demolished the warhawks in the US senate and we have seen it in Britain as his enemies try to drag him down with false charges. Socialist Worker supported him during the past years not because of his views on the Soviet Union but because he has tried to oppose the slaughter in Iraq and the oppression of Palestiniansin in Gaza and on the West Bank. The split between the SWP and Galloway can be further revealed through the websites I mentioned above but whatever those problems the role of Respect is going to continue as an alternative to the pro war and neo liberal policies of New Labour. david |
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27 Dec 07 - 10:03 AM (#2223180) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Big Al Whittle the tories may hate him (though they'd have to join the club to get a ticket for that one), but they were never afraid of him in the way they were of John Smith and Tony Blair. |
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27 Dec 07 - 10:18 AM (#2223193) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,Shimrod A few years ago the SWP took to the streets to support the mass murderer Slobodan Milosevic, on the grounds, as far as I could see, that he was 'anti-American'. I have been deeply suspicious of the British Left ever since! |
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27 Dec 07 - 10:50 AM (#2223209) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Les in Chorlton Dave, You have really ignited my interest in far left groups. Here are a few: The Socialist Party The Workers Revolutionary Party The Revolutionary Communist Party Respect SWP Respect - Renewal Alliance for Workers Liberty Socialist Equality Party Workers Power Movement for a Socialist Future A World to Win Now they may not all be Trotskist, UK or even still busy, but why so many? UK Far left This web site is fascinating but dead since 2002. It does give an interesting guide to what these groups have done, mostly to each other. Lev The Socialist Lanour Party Socialist Party of Great Britain: |
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27 Dec 07 - 10:52 AM (#2223213) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Les in Chorlton Sorry, this makes me look like I am a member of The Socialist Lanour Party Socialist Party of Great Britain when it is generally known that I am with The Peoples Front for the Liberation of Judea or is it the Judean Peoples Front for ............................ |
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27 Dec 07 - 01:26 PM (#2223275) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Richard Bridge Or the Tooting Popular Front, Citizen Smith.... |
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27 Dec 07 - 04:37 PM (#2223372) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Les in Chorlton Freedom for Tootin'! It's amazing how so many people out of 'Smith turn up in other current programmes |
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27 Dec 07 - 04:42 PM (#2223374) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Stringsinger The problem socialists have always had was the internecine fighting from the Schactmanites to the Trotskyites to the ............. Socialists have never seemed to agree on anything to define them. In my view, Stalin was anything but a Socialist. He was a totalitarian dictator and gamed the system to his advantage. Gorbachev seemed to want the USSR to become a genuine socialist economy but wasn't able to make that work. Boris Yeltsin managed to really screw Russia up and now they have the authoritarin Putin to introduce "Shock Doctrine" capitalism. This might be short-lived as Putin becomes more authoritarian. Trotsky was a political theorist as was Hegels and to some degree Marx who was really more of an economist. The lesson here is what happens when political philosophies become applied to governance. They change. Frank Hamilton |
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27 Dec 07 - 05:57 PM (#2223413) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,david It is a total falsehood to say that the SWP supported Milosovic . The SWP did oppose the US/UK attack on Yugoslavia which was an indiscriminate air assault with hospitals,car and tractor convoys,apartments, radio and television stations ,bridges and other civilian targets all being pulverised with thousands of civilians being blown up or maimed. DAVID |
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27 Dec 07 - 06:18 PM (#2223423) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,ALBERT Trotsky was a political theorist who did much to analyse the development of capitalism. However he was much much more than that. He was the chairman of the Petrograd Soviet in 1905 which attempted to end the rule of the autocratic Tsar. As a Jewish socialist in a deeply anti semitic Tsarist Russia this was quite an achievement. He was a brilliant historian and his History Of The Russian Revolution is a towering work. He was an indefatigable opponent of the Tsar during his long years of exile between 1905 and 1917. He was an anti war champion who opposed the slaughterhouse of the First World War when all the democrats of Europe were wallowing in jingoism and patriotism. He was a brilliant journalist who reported the Balkan wars and massacres in the run up to August 1914. He was, with Lenin, a leader of the October Revolution which ended the war on the Eastern Front and lit a beacon of hope for the brutalised millions across Europe. He was the founding leader of the Red Army which defeated a dozen foreign armies plus the right wing White Russian armies at a terrible cost to both the Russian people themselves and the ranks of the Bolsheviks . This was the Red Army that tore the guts out of the Nazis some 25 years later. Trotsky was also the opponent of Stalin and fought to keep the flame of International Socialsim going in opposition to the greater Russian chauvinism of Stalin.It was to cost him and his extended family their lives as those he loved were arrested,shot or assassinated. He was a prolonged critic of Stalin throughout the 1930s at a time when he was being hounded by the police ,expelled from various countries and harassed at every turn. He saw the dangers of fascism at a very early stage and did his utmost to warn all democratic and leftwing forces about its barbarism.In particular he urged the formation of United Fronts that could take on and beat back the nazi menace. He was also a prolific writer on art and literature and so much more. ALBERT |
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27 Dec 07 - 07:03 PM (#2223441) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Les in Chorlton ALBERT< The Socialist Party The Workers Revolutionary Party The Revolutionary Communist Party Respect SWP Respect - Renewal Alliance for Workers Liberty Socialist Equality Party Workers Power Movement for a Socialist Future A World to Win Now they may not all be Trotskist, UK or even still busy, but why so many? How come his followers cannot unite? How came they spend so much time fighting each other and the rest of the left? Lev |
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28 Dec 07 - 02:46 AM (#2223564) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,david REPLYTO LES First of all Respect is not a Trotskist organisation.I should know I am a member! It is a coalition ,or more accurately attempting to be a coalition of both socialist and reformist individuals and organisations who are coming together on the joint basis of opposition to the war and defence of public services plus support for ethnic minorities and civilrights. There is obviously a lot more but space precludes me from writing its founding principles here. Some of the organisations you mention above appear to be little more than paper organisations with no branch structures and very few members.One or two I have never heard of! Many of the splits in the Trotskists organisations go back to the late 1940s and the vatious views about the nature of the Soviet Union which could be a thread on Mudcat all by itself. I am also vary wary about describing any of these organisations as Trotskists as the term is not helpful in itself. david |
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28 Dec 07 - 04:00 AM (#2223573) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Les in Chorlton Well David, I am all in favour of: "attempting to be a coalition of both socialist and reformist individuals and organisations who are coming together on the joint basis of opposition to the war and defence of public services plus support for ethnic minorities and civilrights". The problem most of us see is neither the SWP nor George have a very good track record in this pursuit but who knows? Lev |
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28 Dec 07 - 04:29 AM (#2223579) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Richard Bridge However, Les, (and I am not a member), is there a better way to defend public services and oppose the war? (And of course while the war was wrong simply pulling out willy nilly at this stage is probably likely to do more harm than good, although at some stage an indigenous form of government will probably emerge, albeit perhaps based on principles we would prefer not to see, but is that our call, or the call of the local people - curious paradox of democratic principles) I get more iffy when civil rights become intertwined with the Human Rights Act, the idea of which is fine but some of the decisions under which are a bit curious, and while I support multiculturalism in principle it does seem to me that there is a lot to be said for integration, and moreover the rule of law (in the traditional constitutional law sense) does mean for me that special pleading on the basis of cultural and religious exemptions is a non-starter.... |
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28 Dec 07 - 04:49 AM (#2223584) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Les in Chorlton Richard, I guess we all start from the point that we all count as one and no one. As soon as we start to aggregate we have to have some of what we want and some of what we might not. This is true for all "parties". I see all parties as machines for getting things done. The bigger the party the more I will have to accept other peoples wishes. When government is achieved day to day practicalities may mean I get more or less than what I wanted. When governments fall, parties have to reconsider and move on. The time scale for this is years and years. As I believe Cho en Lie (poor spellin) said when asked what he thought about the French Revolution "It's too early to say". Pressure groups like CND etc. have a role to play as do the Unions. If cultures meet on some mythic level playing field maybe we can be equally sensitive. Generally one has much more power and does unfair things causing minorities to react. I too have a problem with how we treat religions - they have a lot of non-negotiable stuff. We also have the massive history of European colonialism which shapes so much of who we are and what we do. Must close - one night in Windermere and a stumble around in the rain Cheers Lev |
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28 Dec 07 - 07:02 AM (#2223610) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,Shimrod "It is a total falsehood to say that the SWP supported Milosovic ." Is it? Not according to the SWPers I spoke to in the streets of Manchester during the Balkan wars of the 90s (and before the US/UK attacks). They seemed to me to be deliberately ignoring the brutal nature of what was going on in the former Yugoslavia, and, as far as I could make out, through the haze of lefty verbiage and double-speak, seemed to think that UK/Europe should keep its nose out and allow 'ethnic cleansing', mass murder and rape etc. to rage unchecked on its doorstep. Also, having read some of Trotsky's journalism from the Balkan wars of the early 20th century, I don't even think that they were being true to the principles of their founder. To my mind, the trouble with a lot of these groups on the Left, is that they get so lost in a maze of ideology, (often spurious) 'analysis' and ridiculous self-importance that they lose sight of the bleeding obvious ... bit like the way in which the Labour Party has persuaded itself that it needs to support the wilder excesses of Capitalism and the 'Free Market'. |
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28 Dec 07 - 10:40 AM (#2223691) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Hollowfox TO RICHARD BRIDGE Sorry for the delay in replying, my friend. What my friend meant was that the "-ist" was truly committed to socialism and the "-ite" was in it because it was the "in" thing to do. Three guesses where my friend saw himself in this equation. |
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28 Dec 07 - 11:45 AM (#2223723) Subject: RE: BS: Combat From: Donuel You can only get Trotskyphobia in Guatamala. |
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28 Dec 07 - 01:50 PM (#2223810) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Richard Bridge Well, there is a problem in that the basic international law position is that no country has the right to wage war on another save in self defence. So if you oppose Bush invading Iraq on such grounds, then you must also say that outside forces had no place in Yugoslavia (although the unnatural union politically forced on Yugoslavia to make it one country probably contributed to the problem). If you say that democracies had the right to liberate Iraq and to prevent genocide in Yugoslavia (and the Sudan) then you have to accept that if we here in this country elect a government that is dangerous to the USA the USA has the right to invade us and impose a puppet government, rather as it did to the (IMHO) noble Mr Allende's government, has tried to do economically (and once by force) in Cuba, and will do to the Chavez goverment as soon as it figures out how. Now try to work out the application of this principle in Afghanistan, over the decades, Vietnam, Korea, and probably in the near future in Pakistan. Not a pretty sight is it? |
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28 Dec 07 - 01:54 PM (#2223814) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Riginslinger "...then you must also say that outside forces had no place in Yugoslavia..." And I most certainly would say that! |
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28 Dec 07 - 04:56 PM (#2223948) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Big Al Whittle A bit intellectually dishonest to pretend, when we lived through an era of the Soviet bloc clearly having imperialistic ambitions plus massive nuclear weapons capability, that the prospect a communist country on the American continent wasn't a threat to the USA and consequently the democratic system. Similarly Al Quaeda clearly aren't going win any arguments with reasonably sophisticated electorate. That's why they had to kill Benazir Bhutto. As far as they're concerned its all to play for whilst these countries are in their present state. Just being quiescent whilst our country's enemies labour to bring about our downfall, didn't work with Hitler. And it won't work nowadays. You may not feel like facing up to the responsibility of defending our way of life. I understand that, I was brought up as a Quaker - believing that the requirements Jesus gave us with the Sermon on the Mount (Check it out Matthew 6) are non negotiable. Its a sensual and a reasonable response what is an existence filled with grim alternatives. However given the massive sacrifices that ordinary people have made to give us our freedoms, its an evasion of reality,and as I said intellectually dishonest. |
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28 Dec 07 - 05:20 PM (#2223964) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Richard Bridge So did the USA invade the USSR? |
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28 Dec 07 - 05:56 PM (#2223970) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Big Al Whittle Well theres MacDonalds in Moscow - you work out if they were invaded. |
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28 Dec 07 - 06:52 PM (#2224008) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,Shimrod Hang on! I'm not saying that the SWP should have supported an immediate invasion of Yugoslavia. What I do think they should have done was to have shown some solidarity with the innocents being murdered there - rather than havering and faffing about and appearing to say that ethnic cleansing and mass murder is OK as long as it's not the US/UK doing it. As far as I'm concerned they were not far removed from the Tory government of the time, and other contemporary politicians, who didn't appear to understand the historical background to the conflict and tried to convince us that Yugoslavia was a "far off country of which we know little" - in spite of the fact that a substantial number of the people in the UK had been there for their holidays! as for: "Well, there is a problem in that the basic international law position is that no country has the right to wage war on another save in self defence." So, Mr Bridge do you believe then that it was right to stand by and do nothing during the Rwandan genocide and to do nothing in response to the present conflict in the Darfur region of the Sudan? |
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28 Dec 07 - 07:51 PM (#2224045) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Riginslinger "...do you believe then that it was right to stand by and do nothing during the Rwandan genocide and to do nothing in response to the present conflict in the Darfur region of the Sudan?" There was nothing there the West wanted, at least nothing they didn't already have. "A bit intellectually dishonest to pretend...that the prospect a communist country on the American continent wasn't a threat to the USA and...the democratic system." Why? Given a choice, do you think the people would have joined with the communists? |
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29 Dec 07 - 02:45 AM (#2224139) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Big Al Whittle as the people of Estonia and Lithuania would have told you, with Soviet style communism, you didn't really get to choose. It was just an ideological flag of covenience, for a gang of imperialist scoundrels to sail under. |
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29 Dec 07 - 08:34 AM (#2224226) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,albert And Weelittledrummerboy will remember that Estonia ,Lithuania and indeed Latvia were set free from Russia which was then led by Lenin.It was Stalin who grabbed them back in during the 2 World War.His policy of Greater Russian Nationalism was diametrically opposed to the Internationalism of Lenin and Trotsky. albert |
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29 Dec 07 - 01:20 PM (#2224428) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Les in Chorlton ALBERT< The Socialist Party The Workers Revolutionary Party The Revolutionary Communist Party Respect SWP Respect - Renewal Alliance for Workers Liberty Socialist Equality Party Workers Power Movement for a Socialist Future A World to Win Now they may not all be Trotskist, UK or even still busy, but why so many? How come his followers cannot unite? How came they spend so much time fighting each other and the rest of the left? Lev |
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29 Dec 07 - 04:00 PM (#2224532) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,albert tactics,strategies,personalities,organisational methods, albert |
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30 Dec 07 - 06:16 AM (#2224787) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Les in Chorlton albert, how have these "tactics,strategies,personalities,organisational methods," brought socialism any nearer? Lev |
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30 Dec 07 - 11:43 AM (#2224925) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,Non aligned leftie It's the so-called 'democratic centralism' of the SWP I struggle with - too much centralism and too little democracy, IMO. And don't all Trotskyist organisations claim to be the 'revolutionary vanguard of the working class' - including the SWP? Nothing like a little humility, eh? And how come there's so bloody many of these grouplets? And what ever happened to the Sparticists? They were madder than a bag of hornets! And after all the scandals didn't the WRP's Gerry Healey simply swap cults with the Baghwan? And what about that lot who produced reams of position papers on the revolutionary significance of UFOs? And why did the SWP get into bed with Gorgeous George? Were they seduced by the, erm, glamour? Or was it more of the old "opportunism" they're so famous for? I think we should be told! NAL |
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30 Dec 07 - 12:11 PM (#2224950) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Les in Chorlton NAL, "And what about that lot who produced reams of position papers on the revolutionary significance of UFOs?" Agh...... I'd forgotten about them. Didn't Benn toy with that idea: "If an another civilisation got here, it would have to be technologically advanced, hence it would also be socialst"! God don't you just love it? Thanks NAL just too good to be forgotten |
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30 Dec 07 - 01:54 PM (#2225001) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,ALBERT You have both been reading the Murdoch press for too long! And the jokes are rather hoary!! albert |
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30 Dec 07 - 02:15 PM (#2225008) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,non aligned leftie Wouldn't touch the Murdoch press with a very long bargepole, Albert. So I wouldn't know how much column space they give over to poking fun at Trotskyite groupsicules: not much, I'd imagine. Anyway, weren't the last couple of News of the World editors ex-SWP members? At the risk of descending into a rather dreary level of seriousness, is there not quite a bit more to the British left than what the anarchists called "57 varieties of Leninism, all unfit for human consumption"? NAL |
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30 Dec 07 - 02:25 PM (#2225013) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,non aligned leftie It's weird isn't it, though, Les, how when these 'ere aliens land in the the boondocks of the deep south of the USA (they never land in major urban conurbations, please note), the first words out of their strangely attractive multiple mouths are "take me to the central committee of your leading marxist-leninist revolutionary party, preferably the one who has the monopoly on rebuilding the Fourth International." They're always saying stuff like that, these extra-terrestrials. NAL |
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30 Dec 07 - 04:19 PM (#2225069) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,david Gosh! These Trots get everywhere! And wasn't Trotsky himself a Lower East Side boy? david |
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30 Dec 07 - 04:53 PM (#2225091) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,david to Nal I thought their first words were "from San Diego up to Maine In every mine and mill Where working men defend their rights Thats where you'll find Joe Hill.." Now those wobblies were all over America and they loved the October Revolution. david |
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30 Dec 07 - 05:08 PM (#2225102) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,non aligned leftie Nah, the aliens never gave two stuffs about the Wobblies. They looked down on them, see. Thought they were only capable of acheiving 'trade union consciousness'. Very elitist, these 'ere extra-terrestrials. That's what comes of being part of the intergalactic revolutionary vanguard. Pssst! Wanna copy of Socialist Space Cadet? Neither Alpha Centuri nor the Andromeda Galaxy but intergalactic socialism. NAL |
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30 Dec 07 - 05:55 PM (#2225127) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,david I think you are very wrong there...many wobblies joined the US Communist Party when it was founded just after the October Revolution. david |
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30 Dec 07 - 06:20 PM (#2225136) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST From the Wobblies' own website: "Perhaps the most glaring oversight is the incompleteness of most historical accounts of the IWW. Stalinist historians tend to end their study of the IWW in 1917 or 1918, at the time of the Bolshevik take over of the Russian Revolution (thus furthering the wrong headed illusion that the Bolsheviks are a natural evolution of the IWW)". The aliens, in their belief that they were the political leadership of the intergalactic working class, also struggled with this key IWW concept: "The IWW rejects "leaders" as such, for if individuals lead they can also mislead. Labor has continually been betrayed by leaders whom it trusted and followed. It will cease to be betrayed only when it accepts the leadership of ideas and not the leadership of men." But as I'm a non aligned leftie, not a Wobbly, a trotskyite or a Fourth Intergalacticist, it doesn't really matter... NAL |
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30 Dec 07 - 06:21 PM (#2225139) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: GUEST,Non aligned leftie Sorry, the aliens used their anal probe on my non-cookie... NAL |
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31 Dec 07 - 05:59 AM (#2225371) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Les in Chorlton NAL, "Some lefties have gone even further. At about the time Whitey on the Moon was written, Juan Posadas, an influential Argentinian Trotskyist, issued his pamphlet Flying Saucers. According to him, the existence of UFOs proved that more technically and thus socially advanced societies, which could only be socialist societies, existed out there. "We must call upon beings from other planets when they come to intervene," he insisted, "to collaborate with the inhabitants of the earth to overcome misery"." this from a fascinating website: http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=9915 The article in the Socialist Review is not uncritical but gives us a link to the only ideology that matters, forget the rest this is the one true cause: Intergalactic Socialism! Yours in Intergalactic Socialism Lev. |
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31 Dec 07 - 06:01 AM (#2225372) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Les in Chorlton Damn you blue clicky thing you are an agent of trans-global capitalism! |
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01 Jan 08 - 05:14 AM (#2226038) Subject: RE: BS: Combat Trotskyphobia From: Les in Chorlton |