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06 May 99 - 10:42 AM (#76090) Subject: More Music Less BS! From: G.A.S.P. ENOUGH OF THIS NONSENSE! |
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06 May 99 - 11:01 AM (#76096) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Peter Fisher Is that your last gasp? |
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06 May 99 - 11:03 AM (#76098) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: MMario I presume you know how to NOT read? MMario |
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06 May 99 - 11:12 AM (#76102) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Margo To read thread, or not to read thread. That is the question. Whether it is nobler to suffer what you consider BS or pick and choose what looks interesting to you. Alas, poor gasp, I know you not, but you don't sound like a fellow of infinate wit and jest . Let me not thrash Willy the Shake anymore, you get the point. Margarita :>) |
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06 May 99 - 11:15 AM (#76104) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: KingBrilliant Killjoy woz 'ere? I LIKE a little nonsense with my music-stuff. |
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06 May 99 - 11:22 AM (#76106) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Allan C. The stuff I believe you are labeling as B.S. is the very thing which makes the Mudcat the place most of us WANT to hang out. It would be a dreary place indeed if it became little more than a lyrics database and quick-question-simple-answer site. While there are some who prefer to visit a bare bones place, it has become quite evident that most of us prefer to visit a place which is furnished with amenities such as comradship, humor, compassion, and an amazing array of expertise. If you consider yourself to be among the former group, I am sure you can find another site more amenable to your requirements. |
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06 May 99 - 11:22 AM (#76107) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Sam Pirt Just to throw an iron in the works, to some music is nonsence and has no place on this earth, I mean whats the point in it?!!!! (obiously these aren't my views, I am addicted to Music and song BIG TIME, and best of all, I DON'T CARE!!!) Bye, Sam |
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06 May 99 - 11:33 AM (#76108) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Big Mick Dear G.A.S.P., Glad you dropped by, sorry you don't get it. Hope you give a try for a bit, but doubt you will. Please make me admit later that I was wrong about you. I will do so cheerfully. Mick |
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06 May 99 - 11:40 AM (#76111) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: MMario In fairness to gasp; we have been through a rather stressful couple of weeks, and I think may have broken out in a little more silliness then perhaps usual. But I've been 'catting for quite some time now and STILL haven't worked my way through all the old threads that ARE about music. So there is plenty of material out there, gasp, if the current stuff isn't up to your standards. MMario |
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06 May 99 - 11:47 AM (#76114) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Peter T. I have checked out the Database for "More Music, Less B.S." without success, nor can I find any lines that begin "Enough of this Nonsense". Could you clarify, or try elsewhere? Yours, Peter T. |
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06 May 99 - 11:57 AM (#76116) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Bert There should be a little "TRACE" button out there somewhere that allows you to select which threads are of interest to you. Bert. |
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06 May 99 - 02:44 PM (#76154) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Rick Fielding Mick, thank you. It was SO simple, and yet I couldn't come up with it no matter how hard I tried. I'm referring to your phrase "sorry you don't get it". From now on, anytime I see something that I perceive as totally dumb or rude or inappropriate, I don't have to risk censure by responding heatedly, I can just say "sorry you don't get it", and at least I'LL know what I really meant. |
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06 May 99 - 03:57 PM (#76161) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: katlaughing What Allan, Mick, MMario, Rick, PeterT., Margarita, and the rest of them said, only double, no....TRIPLE!!!! Sheesh! Set your button for 365 days of threads and then tell me ya can't find enough to read on music!!! Is somebody forcing you to read these? katlaughing and grinning,NONSENSICALLY!!!! |
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06 May 99 - 04:23 PM (#76168) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: bbc You've all said it well, but I feel the need to throw in my 2-cents worth, too. A couple of thoughts--1)G.A.S.P., we all came in for music, but we found a really neat group of people, as well. Give us a try. 2)If you want music threads, a more positive approach to getting them is to start one, rather than complaining that there aren't enough. Hope to hear more about your interests & areas of expertise in the future. bbc |
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06 May 99 - 04:29 PM (#76170) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: MMario KatL - did you Say "tiple"? |
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06 May 99 - 04:55 PM (#76176) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: annamill Yeah! Buzz off! NOI Was that too terse? Anna
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06 May 99 - 05:06 PM (#76180) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: katlaughing TIPLE...TIPLE...TIPLE!!!YES! YES!YES! |
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06 May 99 - 05:45 PM (#76195) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Banjer I also cannot add anything to what my fellow Mudcatters have already and so eloquently said. You, Mr G.A.S.P. are one of the many reasons that switches marked OFF were invented. If you don't like it here, go elsewhere. As stated previously, we would love to have you as part of the community, but please don't inconvenience yourself. The same route by which you came in will also let you out! |
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06 May 99 - 06:33 PM (#76202) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: jets I for one find the BS interesting and often very informative .I often get a laugh,I get tips on how to get over things like stage fright and other thoughts on performing .I also read things that I am not in agreement with but do take an interest in what your thoughts are. The BS is a great part of the reason that I am here |
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06 May 99 - 06:59 PM (#76205) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Hey, all, this is starting to sound just a wee bit ... well, insensitive is the most tactful word I can think of at the moment. While Joe O is away I feel I should step in as the local peacemaker and remind you all that one of the real joys of this place is the courtesy and openness we all share- yeah, even ol' Paw and the other outrageous members (I name no names!) G*A*S*P came on strong, but the point has been made and very well. Now, come on, y'all, there's gotta be some great songs about BS! Allison (tsk-tsking and finger wagging) |
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06 May 99 - 07:02 PM (#76206) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: SeanM Songs about BS? I'd like to nominate at least fully half of the complete catalog of Disco... Maybe all of it... M |
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06 May 99 - 07:05 PM (#76208) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: campfire My 2 cents - Did you never tell a co-worker about a movie you saw? Or ask someone who sits next to you in church where they grew up? None of these bits of information "matter" in relation to how or why you might be speaking to someone, but they fill out the personalities and help in getting to know someone. If I don't want to make small talk at work, I close my office door. If I only have a few minutes on-line, and want to stick to "business", I probably skip some threads. Anyone here has the same choice. Only read what interests you. But if you're open, you'll be surprised what you might find. campfire |
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06 May 99 - 07:14 PM (#76210) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Margo Hey, you know what? Gasp didn't exactly say explicitly what he meant by nonsense. He left it up to us to jump to conclusions. If gasp really wants a discussion he/she ought to tell us exactly what he's talking about. Come back GASP and tell us! Come Baaaaaaaaack........ Margarita |
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06 May 99 - 07:42 PM (#76218) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Shula Dear G.A.S.P., During the educational stone-age in which I served my time, I once had a teacher who thoughtfully pointed out that while I might, indeed, read during recess, I should not be excused to make use of the swings, slides, see-saws and jungle-jims during class. Now that youth has fled, I can still read whenever I please, but I have realised, too late to do more than watch, that I miss the swings un-swung every mite as much as I would have missed the books unread. Were we all ascetic scholars, what would we have to sing of? And why, from such a narrow view, would we wish to sing at all? Gently, Shula |
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06 May 99 - 07:49 PM (#76219) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: bet G.A.S.P. bye! |
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06 May 99 - 08:04 PM (#76225) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: John in Brisbane As an old sewerage engineer friend tells me "What's shit to you is bread and butter to me!" I'm more than happy to accept our diversity, but I have a very practical difficulty with the counsel offered above.
I don't have the time these days to read all the threads, so I try to pick those threads that provide new lyrics and tunes, or new information about existing folk songs.
But here's the rub! There are a lot of new songs buried in the bullshit (i.e. not my bread and butter), or under headings that appear innocuous to me. Is there some way of ensuring that this cream rises to the top and becomes more visible?
Regards |
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06 May 99 - 09:34 PM (#76239) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Tucker Hey Guys and Dolls, G.A.S.P. seems to be a web surfer who wandered into our place. He riled a few feathers (that's ok, at least it was a non-'catter) He obviously didn't see the listing of songs or ask any pertinent questions, vent...he'll never see your answers... and let's get on with being mudcatters |
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06 May 99 - 09:46 PM (#76244) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Sheye Read this quote and just HAD to share: When asked to comment on the music of Richard Wagner, Mark Twain replied: "Maybe it's not as bad as it sounds." |
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06 May 99 - 09:54 PM (#76246) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: McMusic Personally, I rather enjoy all of you. And as far as BS goes--there ain't nothin' in th' world wrong with Broad Shoulders!! |
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06 May 99 - 11:04 PM (#76268) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Lonesome EJ GASP...post your e-mail address and I'll send ya a f#*ing song Sincerely, LEJ |
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06 May 99 - 11:13 PM (#76270) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: northfolk/al cholger BS? Put it on the ground, Spread it all around, Dig it with a hoe it will make your garden grow... hope that is the one last gasp! |
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06 May 99 - 11:38 PM (#76278) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: BK Some of my favorite songs are abt bs -compelte silliness! such as "To Morrow" (probably in the database). Try it, maybe you'll like it.. It will not cause cancer or emphysema... Also: you never know what jewels might come out of threads w/unlikely sounding titles... things like... TIPPLES! (maybe pronounced tee-play?) Cheers, BK |
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07 May 99 - 12:19 AM (#76285) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: bseed(charleskratz) Dammit, Northfolk, I was gonna post that one. --seed |
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07 May 99 - 12:38 AM (#76291) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Sandy Paton I first came in because a good friend told me there was a discussion going on about the record label I started some 38 years ago. I read that thread, then began looking at others. Strange thing happened: I began to get to "know" a number of the members of this community, and they have become extremely precious to me. If their banter gets off topic occasionally, it doesn't bother me at all, because it give me more insight into the people with whom I am exchanging ideas and information. I see that as a genuine benefit. GASP might experience the same thing just by hanging around awhile and getting acquainted. If giving our good wishes and prayers to one of our friends, as we all have been giving them to Catspaw over the past weeks is what you consider to be BS, then, I'd guess you will never be satisfied with this forum. In that case, I'm sorry, and I'll bid you fare well, honestly. Perhaps you'll find what you're seeking elsewhere. I hope so. Sandy (perhaps the oldest member of the crew, and still learning) |
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07 May 99 - 12:39 AM (#76292) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: gargoyle May I suggest two boards?
One for the B.S. type people, call it Mud II. Or perhaps limiting "chat" to the "chat-room."
And the original Mud for those who were drawn here because it is viable alternative to "newgroups" and AOL..... and a legitimatly recognized source for MUSICAL information, MUSICAL dialogue, MUSICAL insight, MUSICAL expertise.
Mudders, Go back, count your own posts recorded in the directory. And then do a self assesment, are you "social" or are you "folk."
G.A.S.P. I for one am with you. You certainly got the BIRDS here to cackling when you kicked the hen house. |
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07 May 99 - 12:52 AM (#76297) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: katlaughing Has anyone considered that GASP may be a regular incognito? If so, I feel sad that he/she doesn't feel confident/comfortable enough to come out and tell us what is bothering him/her without hiding behind an acronym. The reaction may have been a bit more tolerant. Gargoyle: what's the dif between social and folk? I always found they went hand in hand, like two birds of a feather, two peas in a pod, like ham and eggs, etc. How can one be folk and not be social? Is it a zen kind of thing, where one sings folk to an empty room, so as not to be social? My dictionary defines "folksy" as "friendly or sociable". Sounds good to me, but then I AM social and folk, so what do I know? katlaughing, companionably, won't you join me? |
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07 May 99 - 12:56 AM (#76298) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Bri I must say I have never even considered all the weird conversations as BS... it's just "normal" and it's what the Mudcat is to me, since it's never been anyother way and frankly, I can't see why it would bother anyone! I mean, u still get the info u asked for, but in a much more interesting and insightful fashion..why don't u just ask on the thread for no chat if u don't want it??? |
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07 May 99 - 01:15 AM (#76304) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: ddw in windsor Wonder if G.A.S.P. ever figured out that it takes a little nonsense now and then to be able to recognize sense when we meet it? ddw |
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07 May 99 - 01:42 AM (#76306) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Night Owl Still don't understand how you can separate a legitimate Folk/Blues site from the phoalks's blues and giggles. I don't think the mudcats is an intellectual exercise...I think its music is a heart thing....that "MUSICAL information, MUSICAL dialogue, MUSICAL insight, and MUSICAL expertise", after all,... comes from REAL people!! Maybe reading and UNDERSTANDING songs and lyrics from the database before deciding whether or not to bother with the Forum....would be helpful. |
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07 May 99 - 01:48 AM (#76307) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: SeanM I've got to believe in the side of restraint. We're a remarkable example of free speech here... there are no limits to topics, and the discussion covers a lot of ground. Sadly, if all you're looking for is music, and nothing but music, I hear that alt.whatever has plenty of groups that do nothing but sit and discuss tonal scales and shape note to the nth degree... Read the name! It's the Mudcat CAFE! I don't know about you, but if I wandered into a cafe and found nothing but people sitting around babbling about tuning problems, I'd back out the door...slowly...and call the local asylum. Sorry to those of you who seem to want a strictly musical forum, but I'd have to say you've found a social gathering of musicians and devotees of the style, and not a professional shop talk forum... M |
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07 May 99 - 02:00 AM (#76308) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Lonesome EJ Nicely put, Sean |
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07 May 99 - 02:51 AM (#76314) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: bseed(charleskratz) Me, too, Sean. Any of you ever check out Harp-L or Banjo-L? Chat by email (70 messages a day, half of 'em on changing the pitch of reeds by filing them or putting a dab of epoxy on them, arguments about what pitch you should tune your banjo head to). There seems to be all the music here you could possibly want: the fact that the "B.S." threads are at the top of the list a lot means that lots of 'Catters like them (and believe it or not, Gargoyle, I'm not the only one who keeps refreshing them). --seed |
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07 May 99 - 03:16 AM (#76317) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: reggie miles I haven't explored all the past threads yet so I don't know what has gone before. It's been a challenge just finding time to keep up with what takes place on a day to day basis. It seems though the threads about musical subjects clearly state their purpose, (Need lyrics for...)etc. and the less than musically centered threads are easy enough to spot as well. Catagorizing them into Mud and Mudlite could make it a little easier for those challenged by the search but for me the hunt aye that's the thing. You never know, as was previously stated, what may catch your eye and where it may carry you. To put it in even simpler terms, if you stick your head in a thousand garage sales you're bound to find something. Some don't have the patience or persistence or what ever it takes to do that. If it was easy everybody would be doing it. I was never musically blessed with any sort of great innate ability. That part of what I do has never come easily. Rather the opposite seems to be true in my case. I have however managed to keep at it. Now after twenty years or so of playing at this music stuff I find that a great many of those who gather to listen to my songs seem to enjoy a good deal of my incessant babbling (or BS if you will) as well. A cosmic balance has been struck, in my favor too, because I get as big a kick out of entertaining with stories as I do out of entertaining with music. Honing that verbal banter you refer to as BS my dear G.A.S.P. could be just the skill you need to balance your musical abilities. If you have a specific question that you need assistance with please by all means ask and at least a couple hundred minds will try to respond to your inquiry. Reggie |
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07 May 99 - 03:49 AM (#76320) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: MudGuard Hi G.A.S.P., considering the long list of your postings which concern music (exactly 0 posts) and your even longer list of BS posts (exactly 1 posts), I calculate a BS/music rate of infinity (1 divided by 0). So who are you to complain about the general BS/music rate??? Andreas |
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07 May 99 - 04:04 AM (#76324) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: leprechaun I'm glad I read this one because I was feeling guilty about my overly long non-musical tirade on another thread. |
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07 May 99 - 04:49 AM (#76331) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Banjer Well said, everyone....I too would like G.A.S.P., whatever that means, to answer the question, "Where does social stop and folk begin?". Is not much folk music, especially that of this country's turbulent 50's and 60's, a commentary of social standards of the time? Goodnes, if songs like "Blowin' In The Wind", et.al are not social folk, then what are they? Have I missed the point all these years? I also will apologize to those I have upset and those that I will upset in the future with my BS posts, which far outnumber my musical posts. I know a hell of a lot more about bullshit than I do music right now (but I'm learning), so I will continue to share that which I have the most of! Like Sandy pointed out in an earlier post, if all this is about the three threads regarding Catspaw and his dillema, then that I DO NOT apologize for. That came from the social heart of every folkie on this site and if that is what upset G.A.S.P, he may do well to find other areas, because hopefully that sense of community that makes this site what it is is will never disappear! Wasn't it Abraham Lincoln that said, "You can please some of the people all of the time, All the people some of the time, But you will never please ALL the people ALL of the time"? |
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07 May 99 - 05:24 AM (#76337) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Wolfgang Any chance of more threads about songs was a thread a while ago with a similar complaint but with less responses perhaps due to the moderate wording of the complaint. I bet you that GASP is a regular (as katlaughing has first presumed) for why should any casual visitor complain. And I bet you (s)he is a person I and many others would hate to loose as a contributor and friend. So let us take the wording of this thread as an indicator of the amount of anger and not as a hint that we are not supposed to take the complaint serious (I know, many of you have). I too think that the balance between music and chat has changed in the last couple of months. I wouldn't love Mudcat as much as I do without the occasional chat, the occasional mocking or ironic remark, sure not without thread about political/social background to the music. But chiefly I come here for the music, the songs, the history of songs, information about songwriters, about recordings and all that. I'd love to see relatively more threads of the (unsurpassed) Spancil Hill type thread combining music, lyrics, background information and the occasional chatty remark. My problem is similar to John is Brisbane. I cannot read anymore all threads or posts but have increasing difficulties sorting out what to read and what not. I nearly missed (and perhaps have already but never would know) two or three songs I had looking for for a long time since they were buried amidst a thread I usually do not open. GASP wants to stay here, why else should (s)he complain for (s)he surely does know how to hit an EXIT button and needs not to be taught that. So please accept that for a growing minority (?) not the chat as such but its increasing rate is a growing concern. Mudcat cannot afford to willingly accept loosing contributors mainly or even solely interested in music. Wolfgang |
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07 May 99 - 05:46 AM (#76341) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: dwditty Someone please check to see if Art is laughing. DW |
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07 May 99 - 09:12 AM (#76369) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Big Mick I have maintained from the begining that we are a community of musicians, whose main focus is folk and blues music. As in any community, as the diversity of the group expands, and as many voices and ideas are heard, we have begun to breakdown into "factions" as we face certain issues. The key is to not let the factions fracture the whole. A successful community learns that diversity of thought is to be revelled in. That is what I meant when I said "sorry you don't get it". I no longer can read all the threads, so I rely on the title of the thread, who the author is, and intuition to help me choose which I read. If you long for the good old days when we could read all the threads and know all the contributors, then limit the amount of chat. We will then become a boring little town where someone will remember the lyrics and chords to most every folk/blues song that ever was written. And we will be like anyone of a hundred sites on the Net. And, I would suggest, we would lose some of our most interesting citizens. It is exactly that which some of you seek to limit that keeps us vibrant and makes us unique. The "sappy" non-musical comments that have been mentioned, I will wager, will spawn music. I will bet money that any number of 'Catters have been inspired to write songs based on topics from our non-musical conversations, arguments, silliness and love for one another. Music is moral law, said the philosopher. And we all have been blessed to help in the administration of that law. To use an analogy, could you imagine a society where the law was administered by robots? What I am trying to say is that without the human context of understanding, that which we rely on for protection would quickly become repressive. And so it is with the music, the moral law, that we seek to administer. These discussions, silliness, banter and outright disagreements (such as my recent encounter with Sapper, whom I have found to be a welcome addition to our town) have actually made me a better and more rounded interpreter of the stories I sing. And as we all have said, if you discover a thread is not to your taste, don't read it. I do it all the time. All the best, Mick |
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07 May 99 - 09:38 AM (#76373) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Peter T. Perhaps this thread is beginning to prove GASP's point in a contrary way. So:
F#
(music and B.S. together again on one thread. What more could you ask for in life?)
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07 May 99 - 01:52 PM (#76420) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: bseed(charleskratz) There are always far more threads specifically on music than there are on "b.s."--go ahead, count 'em. It's just that most of the lyrics requests can be answered (or redirected) in a response or three, so they tend to slip down the list. But many of us here seem to like playin' in the poop, or loungin' in the litter, so the threads that G.A.S.P. and Gargoyle find offensive tend to collect near the top and give an unbalanced perception of the threads contents. And, of course, threads that draw a lot of responses, because they stay near the top also stay on the one-day list, while the music ones slip off when the 24 hours since their last post passes. The b.s., too, ultimately slips past its peak ripeness, gets flushed, only to be replaced by fresher flattus. --seed (it may stink, but there's high fiber content) |
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07 May 99 - 06:01 PM (#76499) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: moonchild If I may make a suggestion ... responding to threads such as that of GASP or GARGOYLE only fuels the fire. Ignore them. They will either choose the threads they read more carefully or they will just simply go away. Some threads do not interest me, whether they be music or otherwise, so I don't stop. If an individual hasn't figured out the drill by now, they probably won't and it's wasted words and time trying to show them the way ... moonchild |
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07 May 99 - 07:13 PM (#76508) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Bruce O. G.A.S.P. wasn't me, but it well could have been. At the top of the page is The Mudcat Cafe - a magazine dedicated to blues and folk music. That used to be the case, but not so any more, and it's become too time consuming to find anything related to that subject here. Goodbye Mudcat.
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07 May 99 - 07:25 PM (#76512) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Margo Why haven't you guys looked at this thread: This is my first attempt at making a link, so if it doesn't work, got to the thread entitled "idea for bringing songs out of threads." I am very anxious to see your thoughts on my idea. Margarita |
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07 May 99 - 07:26 PM (#76513) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Margo Oh heck. My link didn't work. Well, the idea thread hasn't dropped off the bottom yet. Let's see who brings it back first. Margarita |
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07 May 99 - 08:43 PM (#76533) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: katlaughing Bruce O: sorry to see you go. I've enjoyed your postings. kat |
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07 May 99 - 08:57 PM (#76542) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: bbc I've got to stop visiting Mudcat on my lunch hour. First, I heard about catspaw being in the hospital. Then, today, I read the "BS" thread. Both made me cry. As one who has started a few of the recent non-musical threads, I felt sensitive to the idea that I may have offended Mudcat members. My 1st reaction was that I would just stop posting altogether, at least for a time. Although I only count approximately 4 1/2 who spoke against BS (as opposed to approximately 40 in favor), it takes some bravery to voice the minority view. I am not a musician, at least not an instrumental/performing one. Perhaps, that's why the sense of community means more to me than to others. During the work week, I don't have time for friends in the flesh (I barely have time for my family!), but I take the time to visit Mudcat 1-3 times a day & I have come to care deeply for many of you. The idea that I should give up my cyber-community hurt me almost as much as April 1st did. On the other hand, I respect Wolfgang & gargoyle & I wonder how many others share their views. Perhaps, if someone feels bold enough to post yet one more non-musical thread, it would be worthwhile to take an anonymous poll--those who favor all-music vs. those who favor/can tolerate mixed threads. For the record, I liked the thoughts that kat, Banjer, & Big Mick expressed, as well as many others. I find a place for both forms of expression & pick & choose as I see fit. best to you all, bbc |
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07 May 99 - 09:35 PM (#76555) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Rick Fielding Hi bbc. Sorry, gotta disagree with you. It takes very little bravery to shout the minority view anonymously and then disappear from a thread. Speaking of bravery, you've got a chunk of that in you, for what you've shared with us over the last few days. ( and remember, I disagreed with several of your points, so I'm not being a sycophant here) As far as starting a thread about what mudcatters want, well that doesn't take any boldness. I'll be happy to (if no one's done it already) |
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07 May 99 - 10:01 PM (#76571) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Lonesome EJ If this forum had been dedicated to Folk and Blues only 1. We would never have glimpsed the soul of a man named Catspaw, and prayed for his recovery 2. In the very hard days after the Columbine High School shootings, I would have had few people who I could rant and rave at, and whose feelings mirrored my hopes and fears. 3.I would never have read "The Second Coming" by WB Yeats in its entirety, and really thought about it, as if for the first time. 4. I would have missed some of the most life-enhancing humor that I have ever read courtesy of Kat, Banjer, Frank, Art and so many others. 5.I would never have rooted for someone like Nightowl, living a life dedicated to care for others, to break through to his patients. 6. I might never have found the place where I could put into words the story of my Mom's last days. But because this Forum is a free and open one, these things were possible. And because of comments and information from people like Rick F, and Wolf, Sandy and Joe, yes and Bruce O, I have taken my music back towards my roots. Sorry to see you go, Bruce. But thanks for teaching us so much about the origins of traditional music. Your scholarly presence will be missed. LEJ |
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07 May 99 - 11:25 PM (#76613) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: katlaughing Beautifully said, Leej. Thank you. Your writing about your mom was esp. poignant for me, having just lost mine when you posted that. All of you helped me through that very difficult time. If this had been limited to only music discussion, whatever THAT is, I would be the worse for having missed the care, concern and comraderie of The True Mudcateers!Blessed Be to all, kat |
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08 May 99 - 12:23 AM (#76643) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: bbelle I have grown weary and humorless reading threads where mature broad-minded individuals are defending themselves against a minority of narrow-minded oafs. Seriously, folks, my feeling is go to hell. Most anyone who visits Mudcat has an interest in folk/blues, but with most of us our music is closely entwined with our politics, social issues, interest in others. We want to know more about each other because most of us walk the fringes and it's reassuring to know others think as we do. For those of us who have been around for a couple of years, the threads have changed and it probably is no longer a site for the purist. So be it. If you don't like the threads, find another web site to exert your aggressions. Sometimes, I'm not interested in the subject matter or political/social rhetoric of a thread, but it certainly gives me food for thought. And I'm not fond of Celtic music, but respect the passion of those who are. If I don't want to go there, I DON'T HAVE TO! Bruce O. ... this isn't directed at you. I've enjoyed your comments and hope after a break you will return. Sometimes, I take a few days away from the Mudcat and am always glad to be back. I won't suggest we lighten up because Ferara said it very well a few weeks ago. If it doesn't assault my ethics or morals concerning humanity, I let it go. Earlier today I suggested ignoring the narrow-minded. When these threads show up, don't respond; they will diffuse themselves. I think the purpose of the nastiness is to cause unrest and arguing the point will serve no purpose. This is my last comment on this situation, for which, I'm sure, some of you are celebrating. If it continues, well, I guess, it continues … moonchild |
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08 May 99 - 02:27 AM (#76680) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Sandy Paton I hope you reconsider, Bruce, because your scholarship has been very valuable to me, personally, and (I'm sure) to all of us. I'll still be able to reach you through that other listserve you led me to join (and to which I have yet to make a contribution, although I read it every day), but the rest of the concerned 'Catters will be deprived as a result of your departure. But you must admit that even that very academic listserve group enjoys some friendly banter now and then. Still, I realize how important this community has become to me in the less that six months I've been here. Perhaps if I were surrounded in "real life" by good friends with whom I could discuss issues of great concern to me, and also share musical experiences and ideas, I would not find the Mudcat Cafe as essential to me as it is. My wife, who is vision-impaired, gets most of her news from television, and a little from what I can read to her from daily papers and news magazines. When we got home from a lecture the other night, she immediately turned on either CNN, CNBC or MSNBC. I went upstairs and tuned into the Mudcat. She laughed and hollered up the stairs, "You're an addict!" I agreed, and replied, "So are you!" That made me realize that I was actually lonely for the kind of chat I find here. I find that I also share much of what goes on here with Caroline. We live in a very conservative real-life community; I work at home and have almost no contact with others who live here. We smile and say hello to folks at the grocery store, but our social life is limited to our many folk music friends, and they are scattered around the country. Mudcat has filled a void in my life, and for that I am very grateful. Sandy |
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08 May 99 - 05:17 AM (#76687) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Banjer Hear, hear, Sandy....It has all pretty much been said, but as Sandy points out, the Mudcat does serve a purpose, fill a void if you will for many of us. Leej and Kat and many others have shown a need and a purpose for our cybervillage...Long live Mudcat!! |
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08 May 99 - 07:31 AM (#76699) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: bbc I'd like to say "Thank You" to Max for the scare he gave us on April 1st. I think, for many of us, it made us aware how much Mudcat has come to mean to us. Look at the tone of the postings since then. There has been an outpouring of love, support, & concern for each other--prayer & hugs intermixed w/ lyrics, midis, etc. We no longer think of ourselves as members of a blues/folk music bulletin board, but, increasingly, we describe ourselves as friends & a community. This is one of the best uses of the Internet--promoting the exchange of information & the building of worldwide community. I have met few of you in the flesh, so far, but I would do anything for you which I could. And I hope to meet & hug many, as time goes on! And now an ad for the website--to promote & maintain that sense of community, please access/join! my best to you all, bbc (Barbara in NY) |
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08 May 99 - 11:46 AM (#76716) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: harpgirl Gargoyle is that you??? |
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08 May 99 - 11:59 AM (#76718) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: dick greenhaus Bruce- COME BACK! PLEASE! WE NEED YOU! |
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08 May 99 - 01:59 PM (#76734) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Rick Fielding Think your right about the April fool's scare Barbara. A lot of folks removed their hearts from under their Mudcat T-shirts and placed them prominently on their sleeves. That can be a bit intimidating to some (me for one) and downright annoying for a very few. Once the old ticker is on display though, a lot of fine things start to happen. I've become less cynical in the last few weeks and I like the change. And I sure don't have any trouble finding the MUSIC. |
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10 May 99 - 09:14 AM (#77165) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: harpgirl Dear Bruce O., I too, have enjoyed your scholarship and I agree with you that weaving our way into the music on Mudcat is more difficult. I for one have tried to redirect my own focus to the music in more of my posts. If you initiated music discussions you might be more satisfied with the conversations...just a thought...harpgirl |
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10 May 99 - 10:39 AM (#77189) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Peter T. Apart from the obvious fact that Mudcatters have varied and uncompartmentalized lives, this all does raise the question of what role music plays in one's life. It seems to me that for some people music is the magnetic centre that orders most of the rest of what they do, and that includes conversation, community, and the rest. They are held together by music. Nothing can really be outside it. For others it is more of a subject, or something to listen to when you are tired, or an intellectual puzzle (How does Bach do that?). It is a space in your life, but not the ordering of all your space. It may be actually very important to you -- I had an uncle for whom Mozart was God, but I can't say that music was central to his life. It was a touchstone or a place he went to for solace or healing. But it wasn't what ordered his life, I think. I think that for some people Music encompasses B.S., and for others it doesn't. Yours, Peter T. |
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10 May 99 - 11:18 AM (#77196) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Art Thieme Alas...joyous participation in the sorrows of the world. Sandy, you know my situation here well. This wormhole into the folk world is a lifeline of sorts. I'm where you are on this. We value the old songs and the traditional folkie road that brought us from then to now. We also know the real value of community, of smalltalk, of humor and a good laugh. Again, please, everyone, go see __LIFE IS BEAUTIFUL__!!! Art |
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10 May 99 - 07:28 PM (#77314) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Sandy Paton Fuel for the fire? Well, maybe… I thought perhaps those of you who have voted to continue the so-called "BS" threads might appreciate the following confirmation of Sue Trump's observation (found on one of her postcards in our files): "What is folkmusic but life itself seeking expression." Many years ago, Caroline and I were visiting Malvina Reynolds and her husband in their home on Parker Street in Berkeley. We had just finished a pleasant dinner and were talking quietly about various subjects of interest to all of us, when Malvina announced that it was time for the evening news. Everything stopped, and we all sat together in front of the television until the newscast was over. There was no crisis pressing on the national consciousness, just a normal day of normal events, but these were grist for Malvina's songmaking mill, and she would not, could not, miss her daily dose of information. I believe that discussions of current events, of history, of personal anxieties, etc., among members of this virtual community are important to many of us, and may well influence, in the long run, our musical endeavors. Others, it seems to me, can simply avoid the non-musical threads. What say ye all? And a quick p.s. to Art: I certainly realize how the 'Cat could be of great importance to you. When I recognize its importance to me (and I am still free to move about the countryside seeking conversations) it becomes additionally clear to me how precious it must be to you. Here are people who share your love for the old traditional songs, and with whom you can share all sorts of thoughts and absurdities, as well as song texts and the like. Cherish the site! Sandy |
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26 Nov 02 - 03:06 PM (#835534) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Wolfgang ATTENTION. THIS IS AN OLD THREAD REFRESHED. When MMario said I have been hearing the above since the day I started coming here in the 'Sincere plea to Mudcat Oldtimers' thread I thought I'd make the test and read an old thread about this theme. I think he's right, but the interesting thing is the same old arguments don't always come from the same old people. It is fascinating for me to watch the small changes in position or argumentation over the years, at least in some people. Wolfgang |
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26 Nov 02 - 09:34 PM (#835642) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Rick Fielding Hi Wolfgang, thanks for bringing this back. It IS quite amazing to see in which direction our opinions go over time. What a time capsule this site is. Cheers Rick |
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16 May 04 - 12:34 PM (#1186806) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: harpgirl rehash |
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17 May 04 - 09:21 AM (#1187188) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: YorkshireYankee So... for us not-so-oldtimers who hadn't yet found Mudcat in April '99, what was Max's April 1st post that so many have referred to above? |
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17 May 04 - 09:28 AM (#1187189) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: GUEST,MMario basically that he was tired of it all and was shutting down the site. |
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17 May 04 - 09:39 AM (#1187191) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Wolfgang The Mudcat is closing its doors Wolfgang |
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17 May 04 - 09:43 AM (#1187193) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Wolfgang Only my compassion with the faint-hearted has prevented my from following my initial impulse to resurrect that old thread. But perhaps next April? Wolfgang |
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17 May 04 - 12:16 PM (#1187280) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Art Thieme When the Music got separated from the B.S. it was a very good move. Some of us were so tired of wading through the merde to find the music stuff. I was about to leave too. Now, for some reason, there are very few threads even in the music list that I want to participate in. The B.S. threads do have some thought provoking topics in these sad times we're in. Yesterday I went right to the B.S. threads for the first time ever. I'm not proud of that. But it IS the truth.-------- And I am posting less overall from lack of interest in current thread topics generally.--- It has become hard for me to, as Joe Campbell was fond of saying, "joyously participate in the sorrows of the world." To end on a positive note, at least I am still trying to see some good that might come from all the sad world events. I do feel that every coin has two sides. Art Thieme |
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17 May 04 - 07:52 PM (#1187510) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: YorkshireYankee Wolfgang, thanks for the link; it was extremely interesting reading. |
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17 May 04 - 09:53 PM (#1187550) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: bbc Yes, Art. I, too, find less of interest to read, but the people contact still makes the site worthwhile! I would not have come to know you or gotten close to the Patons or Rick Fielding without Mudcat. I've discovered new music & countless new friends. I find that, although I might prefer not to, I'm willing to wade through a lot of merde for that! My thoughts have changed little in the past several years. I still find the Internet an amazing resource for connecting ideas & lives. I'd hate to be without it. I find that I read approximately the same number of threads in the so-called music & nonmusic sections of Mudcat--not too many, total--but I do like the division. Nice to "see" you, Wolfgang. I find that many of the longtimers are still around, but only post to select threads. best to you all, bbc |
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17 May 04 - 10:09 PM (#1187555) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Blackcatter I agree with you, Art & bbc. There seems to be little "new" that is of interest to me in the music threads. Today was the first day I actually clicked on one in a week, and it wasn't what I'd hoped it be. There are some threads that are interesting, but on subjects that I've said my piece on more than enough. It is interesting when someone ressurects a thread that I started years ago, however. Of course, maybe this thread should be listed as "BS" too. |
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18 May 04 - 11:02 AM (#1187726) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: GUEST This isn't so different from other folk music forums online. Their heyday is long past. The different social groups have settled comfortably in to their own places (ie Mudcat, rec.music.folk, music mailing lists like Folk Alliance, etc). There just isn't the high level of discussion about music that took place online in the late 90s, when a lot of really knowledgeable people spent a lot of time online sharing what they know. And then there is the antagonism and hostility towards the academically trained people who once were all over in the folk music forums, by people who preferred to discuss farting, and other such drivel. I agree that dividing Mudcat was a good move, it was just too little, WAY too late. By the time it was done, most of the truly knowledgeable people were fed up with the clubhouse and gossip atmosphere, and were already gone. It isn't just Mudcat that has fallen victim to this syndrome though. All of the forums have their insider groups of old-timers, many of whom have used the net to connect with other people and make new friends. Which is fine, of course, if you want your online forums to be social clubs. Not so fine if you are looking to learn new things, and interact with people who are tops in the field, which is the way the folk music forums were in the late 90s, when lots of knowledgeable people were online, but hadn't yet been cyber-bludgeoned by the rude, the ill informed, and the racist and sexist assholes. The decision was forcibly made here a long time ago that the social club would rule, hence it's demise as legitimate source of folk music information. The search engine here sucks for anyone except those with the arcane knowledge of it. Even if the search engine wasn't so bad, the music information from the forum is still inaccessible because it is so badly organized and cataloguing is a joke. Initially Mudcat had great potential. It was squandered by a group of megalomaniac control freaks, who cared more about controlling what posters said about each other, and censoring information that offends them, than they did about the database resource. There is occassionally some quality conversation taking place here, but it seems to only happen in the BS section nowadays, and even there it is pretty rare. I mean, take a look right now where all the clubhouse folk are gathered--the Mother of All BS thread & in every thread someone has to be last thread...the interesting threads are lucky to hit 50 posts. There is a reason why all the new members are of the ilk we are seeing now. When we see new members, that is. |
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18 May 04 - 12:40 PM (#1187736) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Blackcatter It doesn't help when people don't have the guts to post with their name. |
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18 May 04 - 01:12 PM (#1187759) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: MMario of course if the people who constantly complain about not seeing any music threads of interest would: a) START a music thread occasionally - maybe once a month? Nothing to interest you ? START A CONVERSATION ON SOMETHING MUSICAL THAT DOES!!!!! b) CONTRIBUTE to music threads - rather then just read them - Gad - if nothing else - ask a question! Know someone who does an interesting variation on the song under discussion ? post the information on where people can find it... c) learn to use the filters and search engines (they are easier then most web search engines to use) d) possibly TEACH somebody something? Post lyrics rather then give the reference to a 60 year out of print book 99.99% of the readers will never have access to! (Yes, Malcolm, I actually AGREE that tracking the references is important - but for most people who come looking for lyrics ANYTHING usable is better then NOTHING.) Do people realize how many times the ONLY reference to a song that comes up in a web search originates here? Or how about this? MINE the wealth available in the forum on a song or subject that interests you- index it and post the index! Locate some of the missing tunes. you don't have to be able to transcribe it yourself - there are people who volunteer to do it. Hell - I would start more music threads - but you know what? I don't KNOW enough to be able to even ask the right questions!!!! I don't have access to a library's worth of reference books - (though I am trying to change that) And don't discount the BS threads - I've learned a lot about various facets of music/musicians from casual comments throuwn off by a BS-er. Probably as much or more then I've learned from some of the "musical" threads that are so arcane or cryptic that beginners can't understand them. Guest - you say :most of the truly knowledgeable people were fed up with the clubhouse and gossip atmosphere, and were already gone. I think you are being unfair to a lot of the people who HAVE remained - as far as the depth of their knowledge (not me, but there are a lot of people here with enormous experience and knowledge) I see primarily two types of fora on the web - there are those with very little traffic at all; and there are those that are more lively - though tending to be "off-topic". At least on those that are off topic there is usually someone to direct a questioner towards the information they seek. |
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18 May 04 - 01:32 PM (#1187774) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: GUEST The problems with Mudcat going down hill has nothing to do with guests. The decline of the Cat has everything to do with the fact that Max decided a long time ago he wanted a clubhouse for his friends more than he wanted to provide a quality forum for the exchange of high quality information (like Musical Traditions level), so the forum became a BS paradise for flamers and trolls. But even worse, the owners of the DigiTrad database squandered the resource, by refusing to allow the truly knowledgeable people who volunteered to help with organizing the database to do anything. Blow those people off for long enough, and pretty soon the volunteers quit offering. They should have yanked the database away from Max a long time ago, and turned it over to someone who could have done something with it. IMNSHO. |
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18 May 04 - 01:49 PM (#1187791) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Wesley S So guest - is there a "quality forum for the exchange of high quality information" out there that we need to check out ? Does it exist on the WWW ? |
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18 May 04 - 02:24 PM (#1187821) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: GUEST Not anymore. Like I said, the quality of all the folk music forums has gone way down from what they were in the late 90s, and I'm certain we won't see a return to that heyday. DigiTrad is something else entirely, though. |
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18 May 04 - 02:41 PM (#1187835) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Wesley S What does it cost to start one ? Signed - Clueless |
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18 May 04 - 02:54 PM (#1187846) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: greg stephens Interesting reading an old thread like this. Very sad to see Bruce O signing out, fed up with BS. I notice he actually struggled on posting for a few months afer that, but he hasnt appeared in these pages since early 2000. I've noticed his contributions often in threads about folksongs( there still area few!), but never clicked he only appeared in threads many years old. I'm bored rigid by most of the BS, but I still view Mudcat with the threads mixed, not segregated. I think it gives a better picture of what's going on. (I think actually it's all the pompous self-righteousness and self-admiring clever-dickery on the subject of the iraq war that is so mind-numbingly boring, most of the rest of the BS is OK). Anyway. I keep returning to Mudcat. it's a very entertaining newspaper, and covers my main interest in life(folk music) in considerably more detail than the Guardian (my actual newspaper of choice). |
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18 May 04 - 02:58 PM (#1187851) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: GUEST,MMario actually greg - Bruce continued to post up until shortly before his death - he just didn't sign anything. |
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18 May 04 - 03:08 PM (#1187865) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Manitas_at_home " By the time it was done, most of the truly knowledgeable people were fed up with the clubhouse and gossip atmosphere, and were already gone. It was squandered by a group of megalomaniac control freaks, who cared more about controlling what posters said about each other, and censoring information that offends them, than they did about the database resource" You can't have it both ways. If you want it uncontrolled then you have to put up with those who want the clubhouse and gossip atmosphere. |
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18 May 04 - 04:15 PM (#1187927) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Blackcatter Well, clearly GUEST is an idiot. He or she complains all the good people have left - clearly putting GUEST outside that august group of people. GUEST is no more than a troll whos point here is to stir up people. If GUEST truly disliked the place, GUEST would leave. Instead GUEST tries to sow discord by spewing out lies that might be believed by those who are new to the forum. It's called poisoning the well. How pitiful must GUEST be? |
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18 May 04 - 04:32 PM (#1187941) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Joe Offer I don't understand the complaint about the search engine. If I'm looking for a song, I put a distinctive phrase from the song into the search box, and it comes right up. If I need to narrow things down more, I use the "advanced" link. Is there something more the search engine should do? As for the Digital Tradition, yes, I'd like to see additions and changes come more quickly, but there are technical considerations that make that difficult. We're working on solutions (by the way, Dick Greenhaus is the founder and editor of the Digital Tradition Folk song Database - Max just gives it an online home). We've tried to supplement the Digital Tradition by crosslinking related threads, and by designating certain threads "Origins" or "DTStudy" when they contain pertinent background information. If you don't find a song in the DT, use our Filter or search engine to look for threads on a song, or go to QuickLinks and use our Song Origins list. I think the BS/Music division works pretty well, but I do have to say that at times I get peeved with people who feel compelled to start multiple threads on related topics. The current onslaught of "rubbish" and "in every thread..." topics is really getting tedious. I can't figure out how people see humor in that sort of repitition. I guess they do, though. Anyhow, I really am puzzled about the search engine and what problems people have with it. You'll note that there is a new feature on the search engine that allows you to sort results by date order - I find that feature very useful. I was never able to find any logic to ColdFusion's default "relevance" sorting, and I'm glad Jeff has developed an alternative. -Joe Offer- |
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18 May 04 - 07:39 PM (#1188087) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Blackcatter I don't have any problems Joe. |
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18 May 04 - 08:23 PM (#1188120) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: ranger1 I have some problems with the search engine, but those all come from operator error, not the search engine. And yse, I'm one of those newbies who posts to frivolous BS threads. I READ a lot of the music threads and learn an enormous amount from them, but I feel that I don't know enough to post to most of them yet. I was wicked excited when I could answer a lyric request once, hopefully, I'll be able to contribute more content and less nonsense as time goes on. |
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18 May 04 - 11:00 PM (#1188187) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: GUEST,Art Thieme Folks, my intention is not to say that those here now are better or worse than any other time. They are just different. I don't mean to say the threads are terrible or bad or good or whatever. I was making a personal statement about ME. I, me, moi can't find much I care to look into in these music threads these days. I have been here at Mudcat in times past because there were more threads I could add something to. I was simply saying that few threads now want to know anything I've got to offer. That's O.K. It's just what is. It seems to me that what is being discussed now has little to do with folk music. So be it. Art |
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19 May 04 - 12:47 AM (#1188222) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: The Fooles Troupe Well, it looks like I have to get off my donkey and work on the Accordion thread again then... |
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19 May 04 - 08:53 AM (#1188398) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: el ted Q- How many folk singers does it take to change a lightbulb? A- One, and several thousand to sing about how much better the old one was. |
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19 May 04 - 09:07 AM (#1188408) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: GUEST,MMario ART - you rarely complain either. |
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19 May 04 - 11:31 AM (#1188534) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: GUEST,Art Thieme I'm not complaining. Just taking note of a fact -- that I'm in other folk music places these days. Art |
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19 May 04 - 02:52 PM (#1188697) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Once Famous Obviously I wasn't here in the old days. Really, even though I like to mix it up and stir up the pot in the BS section, my first love and what I was drawn to here was a way to share my music experience. I started out in the folk boom and migrated to all facets of country and bluegrass many years ago. I am very well read on traditional country music and am somewhat of a historian on it. My perception is that traditional country music and American folk music are much the same. However, there is not much happening here on this. Quite frankly, American folk music here seems to take a big back seat to the whole British singer/songwriter faux artist thing. I usually want nothing to do with this area. |
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20 May 04 - 12:11 AM (#1189234) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: Blackcatter ok, ok I'll start a music thread. |
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20 May 04 - 04:27 PM (#1190034) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: GUEST More music. Let the BS take care of itself. A |
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20 May 04 - 05:06 PM (#1190104) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: GUEST I started one. Now converse damn you! |
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20 May 04 - 05:07 PM (#1190105) Subject: RE: More Music Less BS! From: GUEST,A Sheepish Blackcatter Oops - sorry that above was from me. I'm at work. |