MacPherson [how to pronounce?]

12 Jan 08 - 12:23 AM (#2234511)
Subject: MacPherson
From: GUEST,leeneia

Friends of mine are going to do a radio show soon, and one of the songs they will be playing has the name 'MacPherson' in it.

Where I grew up (the Chicago-Milwaukee megalopolis) this name is pronounced Mac FIERCE son.

Here in the Kansas City region, it is pronounced Mac FUR son.

So I am taking a poll. How do you say it, and where are you from?

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12 Jan 08 - 12:35 AM (#2234518)
Subject: RE: MacPherson
From: katlaughing

Raised in Wyoming and Colorado - we'd pronounce almost like oyu do, but more muk-FEAR-sun.

My Rog, from New Hampshire, says it the same way.

Maybe the FUR is a reflection of a Scottish accent? In my mind, I can hear a friend or two who are Scots kind of rolling it and it sounding more like FUR than FEAR, actually a kind of blend of the two which sounds more like muk-FAIR-sun.:-)

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12 Jan 08 - 12:50 AM (#2234522)
Subject: RE: MacPherson
From: Brendy

FER

B.

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12 Jan 08 - 12:54 AM (#2234523)
Subject: RE: MacPherson
From: Brendy

Sorry kat didn't notice the FAIR at the end.

I would be inclined to call the person "MACK FER-SON"..., but then, I'm a northerner, and our pronunciation can be more... cut-and-dried..., let's say... ;-)

B.

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12 Jan 08 - 12:55 AM (#2234525)
Subject: RE: MacPherson
From: Bob Bolton

G'day leeneia and Kat,

Just tossing in my hat from a long way from Chicago / Milwaukee / Wyoming / Colorado and New Hampshire ... and even further from Scotland. I know a fair number of Australians with the surname M(a)cPherson ... and have dealt with a local engineering supplier of the same name ... and the only time I've ever heard the "MacFIERCEon" pronunciation (as against the commonly heard "MacFURson") is in the singing of MacPherson's Lament.

Regards,

Bob
Leichhardt, Sydney, Australia

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12 Jan 08 - 01:05 AM (#2234528)
Subject: RE: MacPherson
From: Jim Lad

MacFearson is a pretty common Scottish pronunciation. I find that I switch back and forth between the two with no rhyme nor reason.
You think that's bad though. Ask any Scot how Dalziel and Menzies are pronounced. It's all about accents and local dialects.

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12 Jan 08 - 01:14 AM (#2234532)
Subject: RE: MacPherson
From: Brendy

'Dal-zell' and 'Men-zees' would be they way we would pronounce that, Jim; 'Dee-yell', and 'Ming-iss' tend to not roll off our tongues as well... ;-)

'Ming' does, in fairness.... ;-)

B.

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12 Jan 08 - 02:51 AM (#2234546)
Subject: RE: MacPherson
From: Jim Lad

That's right.
I met a fella "Hyslop" over here who pronounces his name "Highslop".
The list goes on.. "Montague" = "Montygew"

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12 Jan 08 - 03:32 AM (#2234552)
Subject: RE: MacPherson
From: Richard Bridge

Fur.

Now what about Fetherstonhaugh?

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12 Jan 08 - 03:45 AM (#2234557)
Subject: RE: MacPherson
From: Megan L

Mac FER son is how it is pronounced around here in Orkney. The clan MacPherson Museum is in Newtonmore and they pronounce it the same way

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12 Jan 08 - 05:12 AM (#2234590)
Subject: RE: MacPherson
From: Jack Blandiver

Listening to Davie Stewart's MacPherson's Rant (and the intro) on the CD of Alan Lomax recordings it's FER.

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12 Jan 08 - 05:38 AM (#2234604)
Subject: RE: MacPherson
From: Brendy

Fetherstonhaugh?

I would say Fetherston-HAW
....

B.

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12 Jan 08 - 05:57 AM (#2234611)
Subject: RE: MacPherson
From: Bob Bolton

Errr..

Fanshaw ... ?

Bob

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12 Jan 08 - 06:36 AM (#2234623)
Subject: RE: MacPherson
From: Brendy

I remember Reginald Bosanquet on ITN years ago, but his was a household name, so much so, that in our house his was pronounced backwards...: Dla-niger Tueq-na-sob.

B.

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12 Jan 08 - 06:46 AM (#2234625)
Subject: RE: MacPherson
From: Newport Boy

There's the well-known Hyacinth Bouquet (spelt Bucket).

And I knew a Mrs Onions (pronounced Oh-nigh-ons - at least by her)

Phil

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12 Jan 08 - 08:53 AM (#2234649)
Subject: RE: MacPherson
From: GUEST,Andy

And what about the Cholmondleys (Chumleys) and the Mainwarings (Mannerings)'They don't like it up 'em Captain Mannering sir!!'

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12 Jan 08 - 09:13 AM (#2234655)
Subject: RE: MacPherson
From: Richard Bridge

Well done Bob Bolton

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12 Jan 08 - 09:26 AM (#2234665)
Subject: RE: MacPherson
From: Tattie Bogle

Fairish.
Haugh is Hochhhhhhhhhhhh, as in Ochhhhhhhhhhh.

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12 Jan 08 - 10:43 AM (#2234695)
Subject: RE: MacPherson
From: GUEST,leeneia

Megan L. seems to have the most authoritative view when she says

'Mac FER son is how it is pronounced around here in Orkney. The clan MacPherson Museum is in Newtonmore and they pronounce it the same way'

So just to make this crystal clear, Megan, when you write Mac FER son, you are calling for a short e sound, modified slightly by the r which follows, so that it would rhyme with mac PERSON, is that correct?

Someday I may go to the MacPherson, Kansas Scottish Festival, and I'd need to know.

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12 Jan 08 - 10:45 AM (#2234699)
Subject: RE: MacPherson
From: GUEST,leeneia

Forget Disneyland.

http://www.macfestival.org/

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12 Jan 08 - 12:01 PM (#2234740)
Subject: RE: MacPherson
From: Jim Lad

Feastivil!

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12 Jan 08 - 12:25 PM (#2234759)
Subject: RE: MacPherson
From: George Seto - [e-mail]

Both are valid. Doesn't matter except to the other person

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12 Jan 08 - 12:40 PM (#2234774)
Subject: RE: MacPherson
From: Don Firth

I know a fellow named Jim MacPherson. He pronounces it "MacFERson." He does lean it slight toward "MacFEARson," but only slightly.

Don Firth

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12 Jan 08 - 01:19 PM (#2234793)
Subject: RE: MacPherson
From: Brendy

I once knew a man called MacPherson,
an incredibly amiable person
When asked "Is it 'FUR',
or 'FAIR', 'FIERCE'; perhaps 'FEAR'?"
He just softly replied, "I don't care, son"

B.

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12 Jan 08 - 04:55 PM (#2234936)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Bonecruncher

Don't forget some of the other pronunciations such as McGraw (for McGrath) and Strawn (Strachan).
Colyn.

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12 Jan 08 - 05:33 PM (#2234968)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Jim Lad

McGweegin

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12 Jan 08 - 06:18 PM (#2235000)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Murray MacLeod

My formative years in the Scottish Highlands were spent amidst hordes of MacPhersons, and never once did I hear the name pronounced as anything other than MACK-FER-SUN. Never ever did anybody in native MacPherson country pronounce their name MACK-FEAR-SUN.

While we're at it the name MacKay is pronounced MACK-EYE (as in EYE of the storm) and not MACK-KAY (as in Kay Kendall if anybody remembers her ...)

Furthermore the name MacLeod is pronounced MACK-LOUD, and not MACK-LEE-ODD, as US immigration officials tend to assume. I would nevertheless almost prefer that they assume the incorrect pronunciation rather than assume that my name should be spelt "MacLoud" ...

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12 Jan 08 - 07:19 PM (#2235047)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Duane D.

Now that you know the proper pronunciation, feel free to strut about.

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12 Jan 08 - 07:23 PM (#2235055)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Murray MacLeod

There are many who will not get that allusion, Duane ...

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12 Jan 08 - 08:16 PM (#2235072)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Uncle Phil

I just asked a MacPherson I work with here in Texas. She says, "It's pronounced mick-FEAR-son ya'll". I gather from this thread that, in the old country, the ya'll is silent.
- Phil

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12 Jan 08 - 09:32 PM (#2235112)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: katlaughing

LOL...what fun.

Another one: McKeown pronounced Muk-yew-in.

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12 Jan 08 - 10:01 PM (#2235125)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Brendy

Moran: 'More-in' not 'More-ann'

B.

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12 Jan 08 - 10:10 PM (#2235131)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Jim Lad

Thank you Mr. Mac lee odd?

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12 Jan 08 - 10:15 PM (#2235132)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Effsee

FER...FerFS!

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12 Jan 08 - 10:22 PM (#2235135)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Bee

People would lok at ye funny if you said 'Mac FEARson in Cape Breton. MacFURson it is,

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12 Jan 08 - 10:22 PM (#2235136)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Bee

'Look'. The word is l-o-o-k, durn it.

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12 Jan 08 - 10:29 PM (#2235138)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Effsee

There might be some advantages gained from a Gaelic opinion on this matter!

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13 Jan 08 - 02:17 AM (#2235193)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Backwoodsman

As a young whippersnapper (pronounced "wip-a-snap-a") I worked with a fierce (pronounced 'fee-erse') Scottish lady whose name was Smellie. She pronounced it 'Smile-ee).

Just sayin'................ :-)

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13 Jan 08 - 04:56 AM (#2235229)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Brendy

Ole Gunnar Solskjær - Manchester United & Norway (soccer)

His has to be one of the most mispronounced names on British TV; no football commentator or newsreader that I heard, ever managed to get it right.
... it goes like this: 'Oh-leh Goon-our Soul-Shire'

I'll always remember Angela Rippon on BBC News as she wrapped her tongue around names like Ndabaningi Sithole.

... it's just sooooo easy to get it wrong....

B.

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13 Jan 08 - 01:45 PM (#2235501)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,leeneia

The preference seems to be for Mac FUR son except for Texas and Chicagoland, which go for Mac Fear son. Interesting.

It is also interesting that mac means son, and so the name means 'son of Pher's son.'

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13 Jan 08 - 01:56 PM (#2235509)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Megan L

MacPherson means son of the parson

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13 Jan 08 - 02:25 PM (#2235530)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Jim Lad

I think we came into this knowing that the Scottish accent changes by the mile but when Cape Bretoners start helping us out with our English, we know we're in trouble.

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13 Jan 08 - 02:30 PM (#2235538)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: JedMarum

I grew up in the Boston area. I went to school with a couple of kids who were name Mac FEAR son ... so I never knew otherwise, until I was singing the song last year with Ed Miller and Brian McNeill - and Ed told me afterwards, "It's Mac FUR son."

So now I force myself to say FUR!

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13 Jan 08 - 02:55 PM (#2235556)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Don Firth

One of the announcers on a local classical music station is very knowledgeable about music (having been an announcer at a classical music radio station, I know how that works:   read the back of the record jacket), but he has a very grating approach to pronouncing the names of composers and their works. I don't think he speaks any language but English, and in that, he does quite well. But with any foreign-sounding name, which most of them are, he must really strain his mouth a lot. He is forever putting the em-PHAH-sis on the wrong syl-LAHB-le and, in general, tries his damnedest to sound like he knows how to pronounce, French, German, Italian, and Russian names when it's so obvious that he's clueless.

Give him a name like MacPherson and remind him that it's Scottish, and he might trill the "R" for about three seconds.

He's on right now, playing some really nice music, but when he announces it, I'm afraid I wince a lot, smack my forehead with the palm of my hand, and pop another Rolaid. The other announcers there do just fine. Jeez, I wish someone would take the guy in hand!

Don Firth

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13 Jan 08 - 09:33 PM (#2235821)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Joe_F

Did you ever hear the story of Aimee McPherson?
Aimee McPherson, that wonderful person,
She weighed a hundred eighty and her hair was red,
And preached a wicked sermon, so the papers said.

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14 Jan 08 - 12:00 PM (#2236190)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,leeneia

'MacPherson means son of the parson'

That's interesting, Megan. Thanks. Did you know that parson is a variant of person? The parson personifies the church.
==
Don, I know what you mean about the radio announcer. Did you ever listen to the broadcasts of the Boston Symphony Orchestra that had that announcer who insisted on pronouncing it 'Or KES'tra'? He also pronounced princess 'prin CESS'. So affected!

I've often wondered where those announcers got the pronunciation for Dvorak which involves a Frenchified jh sound where some sort of r ought to be.

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14 Jan 08 - 12:04 PM (#2236193)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Tattie Bogle

"So just to make this crystal clear, Megan, when you write Mac FER son, you are calling for a short e sound, modified slightly by the r which follows, so that it would rhyme with mac PERSON, is that correct?" (Leeneia)
Ah, but how are you pronouncing PERSON? North of the Border it often comes out "Pairson", so we're back to "son of the parson" (or should that be "pairson"?

And the accent in Orkney is somewhat different from that in Newtonmore.
But as Brendy says, who cares?

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14 Jan 08 - 12:15 PM (#2236204)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: John MacKenzie

mackferrsn

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14 Jan 08 - 12:30 PM (#2236217)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: PoppaGator

Apropos of nothing much, I once met a guy named Roger Hitler.

Pronounced it "HEIGHT-ler." True story, I swear. This was in New York City, circa 1972-73.

I think that, to American ears, that (correct) "FER" sound, when spoken with one or another Scottish "accent*," might well be heard as "FAIR," and then might be further modified, unconsciousy, to "FEAR." This is my rationalization/explanation for the mispronunciation "McFEARson" which seems to be so very common in some areas of the US.

*Yeah, I realize that when a word is spoken in its own native dialect, it makes little sense to refer to an "accent" ~ it's other people's pronunciations that are "accented."

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14 Jan 08 - 01:22 PM (#2236256)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Brendy

There was some footballer that played for Wales (I think), years ago. His surname was 'Death' - pronounced DEETH.

B.

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14 Jan 08 - 01:50 PM (#2236270)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: catspaw49

Duane and Murray.........To those of us in the Grand Order of the Suspended Chassis (Midwestern U.S. Lodge), Mick-Fear-Sun was originally used when we first encountered this oddity in the Lotus Position. In those olden days, you might not recall but Chap-man (Strut) was also an acceptable way of saying it..

Spaw

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14 Jan 08 - 02:12 PM (#2236296)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Don Firth

Antonín Leopold Dvořák [dvoɹʒ̝æk] DVOR-zhak; (1841 – 1904)

Actually, leeneia, the pronunciation that most classical music announcers use is correct. Dvořák is a Czechoslovakian name. You'll note that there are diacritical marks over the "r" and the "a." This puts the "zh" sound into the word. Several European languages, French, German, and Scandinavian, for example, use diacritical marks (accents, umlauts, etc.) as a normal part of spelling to indicate idiosyncrasies of pronunciation.

August Dvorak, the developer of the ergonomic typewriter/computer keyboard, was of Czech ancestry, but used an anglicized pronunciation of his name, as do many others with the name.

My wife, Barbara's maiden name (which she still uses) is Paleček, Her lineage is a combination of English, Scots-Irish, Swedish, Swiss—and Czechoslovakian on her father's side. People are forever stumbling over her last name, but the most common mispronunciations are "PAH-luh-seck" or "PALE-seck." But the correct pronunciation, indicated by the little squashed "v" over the "c" is "PAH-luh-chek."

Conscientious radio announcers and newscasters spend a fair amount of time going through books like The NBC Pronunciation Guide, CBS's World Words, and good, reliable dictionaries (Merriam-Webster's unabridged is an accepted standard—if two pronunciations are given, pick the first choice) to check on words their not sure about. Or just generally browse. And an announcer at a classical music station needs to keep a good music dictionary handy, one that gives correct pronunciations for composer's names and the names of their various works.

An announcer making it up as he or she goes along is a no-no! Most unprofessional!

Don Firth

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14 Jan 08 - 02:20 PM (#2236302)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Brendy

I came across a surname in Denmark recently: Langballe - literally, Long Balls...

The BBC have a department dedicated to the research/pronunciation of foreign words, but as I said above, they never managed to get Ole Gunnar's name properly for some strange reason.

B.

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14 Jan 08 - 02:33 PM (#2236312)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: PoppaGator

Thanks to Don for clearing that up. I always believed/assumed that "dvor-zhack" was correct, but didn't feel qualified to argue back.

I didn NOT know that the "Dvorak" keyboard was pronounced any differently, and that the Anglicized pronunciation without the "zh" could ever be correct. I've only encountered the name in the computer-related context in printed form, never audio, and so simply assumed that the pronunciation I knew for the composer would be correct in the newer context as well.

One reason that I generally know how to pronounce Slavic names correctly, or at least nearly so, is that I'm a pro basketball fan. The NBA has plenty of Eastern European players the spelling of whose names is counter-intuitive for American speakers of English, but we get to hear broadcasters speak these names pretty regularly, presumably correctly, and thus learn some of the more common spelling/pronunciation conventions common to various Slavic languages.

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14 Jan 08 - 02:42 PM (#2236319)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: ard mhacha

Mac Fer son in the north of Ireland.

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14 Jan 08 - 03:03 PM (#2236327)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Big Mick

I would only know one way to pronounce the name, and it is as Brendy and ard macha have described it.

Mick

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14 Jan 08 - 03:17 PM (#2236341)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Don Firth

PoppaGator, I probably should have put a disclaimer in my comments about the keyboard designer, or maybe not mentioned him specifically. I've always heard people referring to the keyboard as "DVOR-ack," but I've actually never heard him say his name (and since he's dead now, it's too late to ask him). But I do know that many American-born descendents of expatriate Czechs use the anglicized pronunciation. And according to Wikipedia, he was distantly related to the composer, but did use a more anglicized pronunciation of the name.

Surprise! I just learned that he was an educational psychology professor at the University of Washington. But he was there before my time.

Tap tap tap, peck peck peck.

Don Firth

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14 Jan 08 - 04:30 PM (#2236381)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Bill D

If, as Don Firth suggests, there actually exist manuals of pronunciation for network TV & radio personalities, I wonder why there is STILL so much variety in the way notable persons and even countries are pronounced.

Iraq: "Eye-rack" "Irr-ock"

Saddam Hussein: "SAUD-am" "sa-DAM" "Sadum"

Surely, for current figures & places in the news, it is possible to just ASK an embassy official and then rehearse a few times?

I suppose it is well that no MacPhersons are in the daily news lately.

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14 Jan 08 - 05:24 PM (#2236426)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego

I used to regularly perform a song called "MacPherson's Lament" or "MacPherson's Last Farewell." I had an acquaintance who was born near Edinburgh. He insisted I pronounce it so that the middle syllable was somewhere between ER and AIR. By the way, I saw no reference to the song in any of the comments above.

"Fareweell ye dungeons, dark and strong,
Fareweell, farewell to thee;
MacPherson's time will no' be long,
Below the gallows tree.

Sae rantin'ly, sae wantonly, sae dauntin'ly gaed he,
He played a tune and he danced a'roond,
Below the gallows tree."

That's from a very foggy memory, with a stab at the phonetic, but I did like the piece. Anyone else?

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14 Jan 08 - 07:22 PM (#2236521)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: McGrath of Harlow

Life's too short to worry when people get this kind of thing wrong. But it's a bit irritating when people correct you when you tell them your name.

"What's the name?"
"McGrath" (pronounced to rhyme with "bar")
Puzzled expression - and then "Oh you mean McGrath" (rhyming it with "bath")
I feel like replying "No I don't" - but as I said, life's too short. And when you've got a seven letter name with the one vowel, I suppose you have to make allowances.

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14 Jan 08 - 09:01 PM (#2236597)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Bee

Ca'm down, JimLad, it's the rest of you buddies that talk funny.

Truthfully, it was years after leaving home before, with much coaching from a friend, I could even hear the difference between 'won't' and 'wun't' (the CB pronunciation).

I was astonished, listening to my recorded voice recently, and considering how long I've lived away, at how much Cape Breton still colours my speech.

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14 Jan 08 - 09:04 PM (#2236599)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Don Firth

Yeah, Bill, lots of the stuff I hear on radio and television uttered by people who are supposed to know better really makes me wince. Most stations have dictionaries and pronunciation guides stashed on a bookshelf somewhere, but getting people to pull them off the shelf and use them is a whole different ball game. I've worked in stations that didn't have them, and if they do, sometimes the station manager or program director don't know they're there.

I have my own copy of The NBC Pronunciation Guide (old copy--one should get a new copy every year or two to keep up with names of heads of state and other prominent people who start appearing in the news). I was once told in broadcasting school that on-the-air voices should be good examples of the proper use of language and pronunciation because many people assume that since they're professional, they know what they're doing. Caviat emptor!

As I say, having the guides and using them are two different things.

Don Firth

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14 Jan 08 - 09:06 PM (#2236600)
Subject: Lyr Add: MACPHERSON'S FAREWELL
From: Dave Hunt

--
As well as I can remember after all these years- haven't heard it sung it for a very long time!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MACPHERSON'S FAREWELL

Fareweel, ye dungeons dark and strang,
Fareweel, Fareweel tae thee.
MacPherson's time will nae be lang
On yonder gallows tree.

CHO: Sae rantin'ly, sae wantonly
Sae dauntin'ly gaed he
He played a tune and danced it a-roon'
Below the gallows tree.

'Twas by a woman's treacherous hand
That I was condemned to dee.
She stood upon a window ledge
And a blanket she threw o'er me.


Untie these bands frae off my hands
And gie to me my sword.
There's no' a man in all Scotland
But I'll brave him at a word.

There's some come here tae see me hanged
And some to buy my fiddle.
But before I do part wi' her
I'll brak her thro' the middle.

He took the fiddle in both of his hands
And he broke it o'er all a-stane
Says,"There's nae ither hand shall play on thee
When I am dead and gane."

O little did my mother think
When first she cradled me,
That I would turn a rovin' boy
And be hanged on the gallows tree.

The reprieve was comin' oot o'Brig o'Banf
Tae set MacPherson free,
But they pit the clock a quarter afore
And hanged him frae the tree.

Dave

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14 Jan 08 - 09:09 PM (#2236602)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Don Firth

Great song! That's one of my biggies!

Don Firth

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14 Jan 08 - 10:41 PM (#2236646)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: katlaughing

Great song!

Speaking of on-air folks. What drives me nuts is the people who move here and won't learn the proper pronunciation of place names. In Western Colorado the town is Mawn-TROZ, not MAWNT-roes for Montrose and you-RAY, not OO-ray for Ouray!

What's even worse, imo, is they've apparently changed the historical spelling of the Saguache mountains to the phonetic "Sawatch." At least the county name remained the original.

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14 Jan 08 - 11:14 PM (#2236664)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Bert

Not to mention Buena Vista kat.

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14 Jan 08 - 11:23 PM (#2236672)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: katlaughing

I haven't heard any newbies pronounce, Bert. How do they say it?

Another one, which is actually proper, from a Spanish standpoint, is Mesa Verde i.e. "MAY-saw/sah VER (almost as in air)-day/dee" but you wouldn't catch old Western Slope natives saying it that way. It was always MAY-saw/sah veard, as in "heard."

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14 Jan 08 - 11:23 PM (#2236673)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Bert

And also regarding pronunciation

Stolen from a newspaper Limeric contest years ago...

There was a young man from DunLaoghaire
who propounded an interesting thaoghaire
that the language of Erse
has a shortage of verse
for the spelling makes poets so waoghaire

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15 Jan 08 - 04:43 AM (#2236758)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: greg stephens

The majority of people on this thread are in favour of FUR, with a few FEAR, But I am absolutely sure a number of people out west(in Scotland that is, not America) use something rather closer to FAIR than FUR.I am not Scottish myself, but I have travelled extensively in those parts.

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15 Jan 08 - 08:50 AM (#2236855)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,HuwG at work

Dvorak is properly pronounced "D.V. O'Rourke". One of two composers who emigrated secretly from Ireland to Central Europe (the other being K. O'Daly). Joke courtesy of Frank Muir c. 1967.

A guide to how the second of those two composers is pronounced properly comes from a friend in Sheffield who once related that he requested some classical number called "Could I but express in music?" from the local record library. They were unable to find it because either the librarian or the computer transcribed it as "Kodaly buttocks-pressing music".

Fro those of us who still remember "Dr. Finlay's casebook" in black and white on the box, MacPherson is pronounced :

"Janet ?"
"Aye, Dr. Cameron ?"

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15 Jan 08 - 09:36 AM (#2236907)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: JedMarum

Growing up in New England I never had a problem with this city name - and I'm sure the UK folks here will think this is funny too, but many people from the US outside of New England can't say Worcester.

They'll say WORE SESTER or WORE CHESTER even WOO STER or WOO SESTER. I'm not sure why the word is difficult, but it frequently gives people a challenge.

No wonder they say Mac-FUR-son.

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15 Jan 08 - 09:37 AM (#2236909)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: JedMarum

OOops I mean:

No wonder they say Mac-FEAR-son.

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15 Jan 08 - 09:45 AM (#2236912)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Minerva

leeneia, you said, "Friends of mine are going to do a radio show soon..."

What radio show would that be, that would have MacPhersons in it? I thought radio was a Dali-esque wasteland of shriveled, barkless trees, effette clocks, dry, dusty screaming, and brain-dead hyperjabber. I shot a radio, once.

BTW how do you pronounce "leeneia"?

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15 Jan 08 - 09:57 AM (#2236918)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Brendy

I always fancied living in Lyrecrompane... it's a town in County Kerry...

... have a go at it.... ;-)

B.

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15 Jan 08 - 10:23 AM (#2236934)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: katlaughing

Oh, boy, Jed, I had to learn it was not WOO-ster as my old Latin teacher had called herself, but WHU-stuh as my NH husband insisted!**bg&&

I'd just like to make note 'twas I who first posted the "FAIR"...glad to see some of you agree.:-)

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15 Jan 08 - 10:46 AM (#2236956)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: PoppaGator

There are plenty of place names in and around New Orleans whose "correct" pronunciation would be incorrect in the original language, and which is also not how most strangers would utter them on a first try. Not unlike some of those Colorado locales Kat mentioned.

Some local street names:

Burgundy (originally French): bur-GUN-dy
Melpomene (Greek): MEL-puh-MEEN (and even, often enough, MEL-kuh-MEEN, but that's another story). Correct Greek is mel-POM-uh-nee.
Burthe (from ???): Byooth
Chartres (French): CHAR-ters (or CHAW-tiz, with a more pronounced local accent) ~ not "Shart-rghh," or however a French native would say it.
Carondelet: car-on-duh-LETT ~ another example where pronunciaiton that would be correct in French (in this case, "car-on-duh-LAY) is, perversely enough, incorrect in New Orleans.

Late-night TV commercials seem to be a source for some of the worst mispronunciations. It seems that some national marketers set up local post-office boxes in different metro areas, and the person doing voice-overs is expected to read each address at the studio in LA or NY, even though there's not way he/she could possibly know how to pronounce all those place-names from around the country.

The best & most common local example of this is when an address in suburban Metairie has to be read out loud. The correct pronunciation for anyone who's ever been in or around Metairie is "MET-uh-ree," often contracted to "MET-ree." (There's even a local taxi company called "Metry Cab.") Folks from elsewhere, understandably enough, very often say "meh-TAIR-ee" on their first try, thereby betraying their status as know-nothing outsiders.

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15 Jan 08 - 11:00 AM (#2236970)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: McGrath of Harlow

It always seems the polite thing to adopt the local pronunciation, however strange. But when it comes to a situation where late comers have mangled the way an existing name is pronounced I'm not sure what's the right thing to do. (For example kat's example of Mesa Verde - or in my part of the world Sawbridgeworth, which used to be called Sapsworth, but now tends to be pronounced the way it's spelt.)

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15 Jan 08 - 11:04 AM (#2236975)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Pistachio

Hi Tattie Bogle. I agree with your pronunciation but wonder if it would be 'explained ' as Mac phrr son. It's my eldest sisters married name and she cringes when called Mac fear son though the 'local' (Blairgowrie) sound would be more like Mac ferrson.

BTW I do appreciate correct pronunciation and spelling of my name, having gone from a McGregor to an English RICHINGS it is irritating to have a 'T' placed before the C! The voice recognition technology at hotel bookings continually refuses to accept my name and patches me through to a 'live' operator!!!
Hazel.

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15 Jan 08 - 11:25 AM (#2236994)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Brendy

Belvoir.

There's one in Belfast, and there's one outside Sixmilebridge in Co. Clare.

In Belfast, it's BEEVER, in Clare, BELLV-WI-ER

B.

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15 Jan 08 - 11:28 AM (#2236997)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego

I would, first, like to thank Dave Hunt for the lyrics. A number of comments regarding pronunciation miscreants in the media brought to mind a local phenomenon that persists today. In our Pacific Beach neighborhood, east-west streets are named, in alphabetical order, for gemstones; i.e., beryl, chalcedony - to turquoise, etc. For some reason, garnet is consistently pronounced garNET by local radio and TV wizards. I had a chance meeting at a charity dinner with a local news anchor and asked about this. Not to put too fine a point on it,
I asked if he knew anyone who sported any garNET jewelry. He yielded, with a promise to "look into it." Two days later, he mispronounced it once again, on air. Old bad habits die hard, I reckon.

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15 Jan 08 - 01:46 PM (#2237098)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,leeneia

I incline towards the opinion that the original Scottish pronunciation was Mac Fair son, and this was modified to Mac Fear son in the U.S.   Mac Fur son is phonetic Transatlantic and is at a further remove.

As to the pronunciation of leeneia, it has no pronunciation. It's merely a screen name.

The radio show is on KKFI, Kansas City, from 11 to 1 (I think) on Sundays.

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15 Jan 08 - 02:07 PM (#2237107)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: katlaughing

The French does get mangled, doesn't it? In WY is Belle Forche, but do not say bel-for-shay if you don't want to be taken for an outsider. Locals say bel-foosh.:-)

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15 Jan 08 - 02:26 PM (#2237125)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Bee

Leeneia, it is sometimes found that the Cape Breton pronunciation is the older and/or more correct than what is current in Scotland, but may not be so in this instance: I'm no linguist.

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15 Jan 08 - 02:32 PM (#2237132)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: PoppaGator

Well, Detroit was probably pronounced "day-TWAH" by its original French settlers.

Our current American pronunciation of Des Moines is a sort of compromise between true French and out-and-out Anglicanization. There are plenty of other French place names in the upper Midwest where the last Francophone left many years ago, at which time the pronunciation went up for grabs.

Back to New Orleans ~ I forgot one of my favorites, a wonderful example of mangled Greek:

Many residents of Socrates St. in Algiers say "SO-crates."

Anyone who has ever had the lightest exposure to philosophy knows how wrong that is!

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15 Jan 08 - 03:02 PM (#2237159)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Murray MacLeod

I would venture to take issue with Jed and Kat on the WORCESTER issue.

The fact that the locals call it WISS_TAH (as near as I can phoneticize it) don't make it correct imo, although I found it quite endearing during the two years I lived there.

The English town is called WOOSTER, and that is and should be the benchmark pronunciation. ( Incidentally Worcester MA was one of the few American cities, maybe the only one, declared a bombing target by Hitler, presumably because it was the location of the Norton abrasives factory ).

Similarly, I detest the pronunciation of ELGIN as ELL-JIN. Hard "G" please, just like the original Scottish town.

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15 Jan 08 - 03:19 PM (#2237170)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Brendy

I can understand a name like Des Moines getting garbled up. If the town was in France, I think I'd try and make a go at a French pronunciation. But I, too listen to how American people pronounce it, and without thinking, I pronounce it like I hear it.

I could understand, a straight 'Belle Forsh', but 'Foosh' is a novel twist, kat.

Belvoir, pronounced 'Beever' is an Anglicanisation, but how it arrived at that pronunciation, I have no idea.

B.

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15 Jan 08 - 04:23 PM (#2237218)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Don Firth

When a new announcer shows up at a station from somewhere else, he's sort of like the new kid at the school, walking down the hall between a line of locals who seem eager to find an excuse to give him the raspberry. He tries his damnedest to learn the particulars and peculiarities of local pronunciations (or, at least, he should), but it's pretty difficult to get it all right until he's lived there for awhile, and he's bound to make the occasional goof.

In fall of 1972, I started working at KORD, a station in Pasco, in south-eastern Washington (one of the Tri-Cities—Pasco, Kennewick, and Richland, just down the pike from Hanford). In an Anthropology class at the U. of Washington some years before, there had been mention of the Shoshone tribe of native Americans. The professor pronounced it "Shoh-SHOH-nee." I had also heard that pronunciation used in movies. When reading a commercial on my third day there, I gave the address of the store, which was on Shoshone Avenue. The phone lit up. I was informed by a number of callers that the "correct" pronunciation was "Shoh-SHOHN." No long "e" at the end. Some folks were polite and informative. Others were rude and contemptious.

I looked it up in a pronunciation guide and learned that it was correctly pronounced either way—which way depended on local option. Can't win 'em all.

I did appreciate the callers who were polite and helpful.

But sometimes there just ain't no way of winning. Speaking of "Des Moines," there is a municipality or "suburb" south of Seattle with that name. As an exercise, the teacher of the vocabulary and pronunciation class I took at broadcasting school, asked a few of us to call city officials or stores in the area and ask them how it should be pronounce, "Duh Moyne" as in Des Moines, Iowa, or some other way. The answers came back that some folks pronounced it one way, some another. There seemed to be no general agreement among the people who lived and worked there.

So—whatcha gonna do!??

My older sister's husband (a Canadian) had a whole repertoire of hilarious jokes about a stuffy, goofy Englishman named Lord Chumley. Funny stuff! Conceive my amazement when I learned that "Chumley" was spelled "Chalmonderley."

Or so I've been told. . . .

Don Firth

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15 Jan 08 - 04:38 PM (#2237231)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego

Heavens, Don, maybe we do know the same people. While I was at Ft. Lewis, 1961-63, I had a buddy from Lewisburg, PA, who was a drama student at Bucknell and, later, at Northwestern. He loved to tell, with appropriate accents, guffaws and harrumphs, Lord Chumley jokes. I especially recall the punch line, "I've come to bury Caesar, not to praise him!" You may recall it...

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15 Jan 08 - 04:50 PM (#2237247)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: PoppaGator

Natchitoches, Louisiana: NACK-a-tish

Natchidoches, Texas: nack-a-DOE-chiz

The nearby state of Arkansas is normally pronounced "AR-ken-saw" ~ which is, I believe, the corrupted pronunciation of a French spelling of a Native American word ~ but not long ago, shortly before the Arkansas-LSU football game, I swear I heard LSU football coach Les Miless, on TV, actually say "ar-KAN-sas." Well, the guy's from Michigan, after all.

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15 Jan 08 - 05:09 PM (#2237263)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Murray MacLeod

ftr, Don, the name is indeed pronounced "CHUMLEY", but the correct spelling is CHOLMDONDELY

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15 Jan 08 - 05:11 PM (#2237265)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Murray MacLeod

or CHOLMONDELEY even ...

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15 Jan 08 - 06:28 PM (#2237319)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: McGrath of Harlow

Here is a List of names in English with non-intuitive pronunciations

A very long list too.

I'd have thought a pretty basic tool of any radio station would be a list of the house style for pronouncing names - especially local place names.

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15 Jan 08 - 07:10 PM (#2237335)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: katlaughing

So, Murray, maybe my old Latin teacher knew what she was calling herself, after all!:-)

Another one in Massachusetts was Chelmsford pronounced CHUMS-ferd.

In Connecticut it is pronounced BER-lin as opposed to the German berLIN.

I am always a little taken aback when someone hears my last name and asks how it is spelled...I always tell them ell-ay- then the country "France!" Then they get all flustered about how to pronounce it...La Franz or La Frawnz. It's pretty funny sometimes.

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15 Jan 08 - 07:41 PM (#2237351)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Uncle Phil

My old home state of Louisiana is often pronounced as lou-EASE-e-anna, as if it was named after a chick named Louise. I grew up pronouncing it LOU-zee-anna, since it was actually named for a dude named Louis. We also pronounced the name of Baton Rouge's southern suburb as nawl-lens instead of New-Or-leans like they do on the Tee-Vee news.

Baton Rouge is near Lafayette, Louisiana, pronounced LA-fie-yet if you grew up south of Opelousas or LA-fee-et if you grew up north of Opelousas. Then I went to school in Lafayette County, Mississippi and discovered, to my horror, that they pronounce it luh-FAY-et. I wonder how do they pronounce it in Indiana?
- Phil

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15 Jan 08 - 11:21 PM (#2237460)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,leeneia

PoppaGator, if you heard ar KAN sas, he must have been talking about the river instead of the state. Hard to see how a river could come up in a discussion of football, however.

Uncle Phil, I have a cousin who lives in Lafayette, Indiana. She says Lah fay ETTE.

To go back some, I have found a site which gives the rzh pronunciation for an r in Czech, so the classical music announcers' way of saying Dvorak seems okay. I've been to Spillville, Iowa, a tiny town where Dvorak lived for a while. It is a delightful place. It is so small, that they don't even put it on some maps of the state.

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16 Jan 08 - 02:38 AM (#2237503)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: catspaw49

Of course then there's the great state of Uh-HI-uh (Ohio) where we too have Lah-fee-et (West Lafayette) and WOO-stir (Wooster)......as well as Vur-SALES (Versailles), LYE-muh (Lima), Bell-FOUNT-un (Bellefontaine), and the list goes on and on........................

The most screwed up one that I can think of anywhere is in Nashville, Tennessee. The below copied from Wiki since its easier to just use their explanation:

Jacques-Timothée Boucher, Sieur de Montbrun, anglicized as Timothy Demonbreun, (b. Montreal, Québec, Canada, 1747, d. Nashville, Tennessee, USA, 1826) was a French-Canadian fur trader, an officer of the American Revolution, Lieutenant-Governor of the Illinois Territory and is known as the "first citizen" of Nashville, Tennessee. Because French orthography was so fluid at the time, and because of widespread variations in English orthography, Demonbreun's name is of some debate. The preferred use today is Timothy Demonbreun, though the first name is sometimes rendered in the French as Timothé, Timothée or Timothe. As for the last name, it derives from the French words for from brown mountain, and is also rendered variously as Demontbrun, de Montbrun, Demontbreun, de Montbreun, De Mont-Breun, and others. Descendants of Demonbreun (it is a very common surname in Middle Tennessee) spell the name with and without the middle "T," as one word or two, with a "U" in place of the "O," with and without the "E," and with an "N" or an "M" at the end. In addition, other variations such as Demumbrine and "Demombrum" also exist. Demonbreun Street in Nashville shows the preferred spelling. The proper local pronunciation is IPA: /dəˈmʌmbriən/, and rhymes with "Northumbrian."

Spaw

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16 Jan 08 - 03:58 AM (#2237517)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle

I was at school with a Death pronounced Dee Ath and a Kryswon pronounced Shivawn.

When I first started training as a teacher I worked with a woman whose Polish name was pronounced Shay Devits but was spelled with more 'z's than I have ever seen on a page, and little sign of any vowels. She received an absence note from a parent who had made six attempts to spell it, all crossed out, and finally had substituted Dear Teacher.

And for Monty Python fans, let us not forget: No no no, it's spelled, "Raymond Luxury Yacht," but it's pronounced, "Throat Warbler Mangrove".

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16 Jan 08 - 11:56 AM (#2237743)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego

And, let us not forget the immortal words of the Monty Python crew during Arthur's assault on the castle during the "Holy Grail" quest. The "French" defender refers to the king and his silly band of....
"KA-NIGGETS!" Then, again, there are words such as psalter, or psalm wherein the "P" is silent, as in swimming.

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16 Jan 08 - 12:17 PM (#2237758)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Leadfingers

Woolisfardisworthy North Devon UK - The Town sign has the addition in brackets - Pronounced woolsey !

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16 Jan 08 - 12:38 PM (#2237772)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Ruth Archer

I suspect the Irish Belviors (pronounced Beaver) may have something to do with Belvior Castle in Leicestershire, situated in the Vale of Belvoir (both also pronounced Beaver). The Dukes of Rutland live there - perhaps there's some sort of historical aristocratic connection with the Belvoirs in Ireland?

I drive through the Vale of Belvoir every day on my way to work.

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16 Jan 08 - 02:05 PM (#2237834)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: PoppaGator

How 'bout Beauchamp, variously pronounced "BEECH-um" or "BO-sham," etc.?

There's an old Creole family in New Orleans named Bagneris. Vernel, a musical-theatre personality whose play "One More Time" made it to Broadway some years ago, pronounces it "BON-a-REE," which is probably pretty close to the original French pronunciation, I suppose. His relatives who are involved in local politics use a more Anglicized "bag-NAIR-is."

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17 Jan 08 - 08:20 AM (#2238321)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle

Cornish village of Mousehole pronounced Mowzel. And of more relevance to folkies, as some editors have failed to spot, the Hazebro round whose light Sam Larner was a-fishing is actually the Norfolk village of Happisburg.

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17 Jan 08 - 08:57 AM (#2238336)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Bee

CBC National announcers have been taught to pronounce French place names as the French (or at least, the Quebecois) would pronounce them. It is a source of amusement to us, here in the Maritimes, when we hear them gamely trying to pronounce names like 'Musquodoboit' and 'Quispamsis' as if they were French. Musquodoboit, and I think Quispamsis as well, are Mi'qMa'q names, and Musquodoboit is pronounced locally as 'Musk-a-dob-et' - certainly not 'Muska-da-bwah'.

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19 Jan 08 - 08:49 AM (#2239942)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Tattie Bogle

Looked at your list, m'Gra, for one of the places I used to live - Shrewsbury. There was a survey done in the local paper, the Shropshire Star, while I was there, on how to pronounce it. Turns out most locals don't even pronounce the first r, so it comes out as:
SHOOSBRIE (not SHOWSBRIE).
BTW there's a place up here called HarLAW (emphasis on 2nd syllable, as also in DunBAR, DunLOP, etc)And I once heard a newsreader refer to Ban-CHORy (as it's spelt) but it's BANc'ree.

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19 Jan 08 - 10:04 AM (#2239973)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,leeneia

That's interesting about dropping the first r in Shrewsbury. I think there can be too many consonants in a word and people start dropping them, no matter what the spelling calls for.

Another case would be Blytheville (Arkansas) which rhymes with Bible.

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20 Jan 08 - 07:08 AM (#2240475)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Tyke

interesting

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21 Jan 08 - 01:19 AM (#2241045)
Subject: Lyr Add: DON'T CALL WAGGA WAGGA WAGGA (G. Ghampion
From: Sandra in Sydney

this is the perfect place to bring in my favourite Australian placename.

Goonoo Goonoo in the New England area, Rowan's part of Oz - in Australian Aboriginal languages plurals were created by repeating the word - and this one is now pronounced Gunny Goonoo! It probably wasn't originally, but words change over the years/centuries, especially when used by speakers of another language.

more on Doubled up place names including the words to Greg Ghampion's song "Don't call Wagga Wagga Wagga"

sandra

and keeping this a musical thread, here's Greg's song -

Don't Call Wagga Wagga Wagga

© Greg Champion/Jim Haynes
(Warner/Chappel Music Australia)

This version first released on the album 'Stand Back Australia'.


Now once I met Ted Egan legend bushman that he is
a lotta folks they know their Outback well, and Ted he sure knows his
he knows those towns with funny names, the ones that make you laugh
and when it comes to the double names, he says "ya don't do things by
half", and

Chorus 1
Ya don't call Kurri Kurri Kurri
and ya don't call Gin Gin Gin
ya don't call Mooney Mooney Mooney
and ya don't call Kin Kin Kin
ya never call Pindi Pindi Pindi
and ya don't call Grong Grong Grong
and ya don't call Wagga Wagga Wagga no sir
callin' Wagga Wagga Wagga is wrong

It's Lang Lang and it's Ki Ki Wangi Wangi and Woy Woy
and if ya call Tumbi Umbi Tumbi, well that proves you're a silly boy
Cocklebiddy isn't Cockle, Duckinwilla isn't Duck
Burpengary isn't Burpen, Muckadilla isn't Muck
Uranquinty isn't Uran, and Petrie isn't Pee
you'd look pretty silly callin' Liili Pilli Lilli and Wee Waa isn't Wee, and

Chorus 2
Ya don't call Walla Walla Walla
and ya don't call Curl Curl Curl
ya don't call Mitta Mitta Mitta
and ya don't call Wool Wool Wool
ya never call Pura Pura Pura
and ya don't call Bong Bong Bong
and ya don't call Wagga Wagga Wagga no sir
callin' Wagga Wagga Wagga is wrong

It's Terrigal not Terry, and Stanthorpe isn't Stan
Peterborough isn't Peter, Dandaragan isn't Dan
Kenebri's not Kenny, Jackadgery isn't Jack
never ever call Jimboomba Jim and Macksville isn't Mack
so now you'll all remember Ted Egan's good advice
some words are so fair dinkum that you have to use 'em twice, and...

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21 Jan 08 - 02:26 AM (#2241055)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Ruth Archer

poppagator, there's a village called Kibworth Beauchamp also in Leicestershire and also pronounced Beecham.

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21 Jan 08 - 09:18 AM (#2241230)
Subject: RE:  [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST

To quote a good friend of mine. "There is no Fear in MacPherson."

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21 Jan 08 - 09:32 AM (#2241240)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: John MacKenzie

Then there's Kirkcudbright pronounced Kirkoobry, Avoch pronounced Och, and Anstruther pronounced Ainster.
G ¦¬]

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22 Jan 08 - 01:08 PM (#2242116)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Snuffy

A good example of dropping excess consonants is the Warwickshire town of Coleshill - pronounced Kozle

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22 Jan 08 - 03:47 PM (#2242266)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: The Sandman

aye and wymondham in Norfolk,is windham.
however Billy Anthonys Bottom,IS Billy Anthonys Bottom,andIam sure it is one of the finest bottoms in Somerset.

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22 Jan 08 - 03:55 PM (#2242279)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: The Sandman

From: Brendy - PM
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 10:01 PM

Moran: 'More-in' not 'More-ann'.
in ireland it is pronounced moron.and what about Theydon Bois

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23 Jan 08 - 01:40 PM (#2242966)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Failte

Captain Birdseye has been eating too many fish fingers!

In Ireland 'Moran' is definitely not pronounced 'moron', but 'more-an'.

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23 Jan 08 - 03:22 PM (#2243046)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: PoppaGator

In the US, the second syllable of the name Moran is usually accented: more-ANN (or muh-RAN). I've occasionally heard it with more of an accent on the first syllable (MO-ran), and wonder if that might be closer to Irish usage, or if it's simply a mispronunciation.

My father's mother's maiden name was something much less common but very similar: Doran. She passed way many years before I was born, and none of her family seem to have immigrated with her and her husband's family, so I don't know anyone in the States with her name. Therefore, I'm not sure which syllable she and her folks might have accented.

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23 Jan 08 - 03:34 PM (#2243055)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: katlaughing

Poppa, maybe some long lost relatives amongst This Lot could tell you.:-)

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23 Jan 08 - 05:36 PM (#2243138)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Sandra in Sydney

PoppaGator - my colleague pronounced his surname with the accent on the second syllable - DorAN, but I don't know if that's the Irish or Australian way.

sandra

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23 Jan 08 - 06:40 PM (#2243190)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: The Sandman

MORE -On.is how it is pronounced in this area.
KEVIN MORAN irish footballer was definitely not pronounced morann.
but here are two other variations
Moran (Irish: Ó Móráin) is a modern Irish surname and derived from member ship of a medieval dynastic sept. The name means a descendent of Mórán, translated as Great One. Morans were a respected sept of the Uí Fiachrach dynasty in the western counties of Mayo and Sligo. In Ireland, where the name descended from the Gaelic, it is generally pronounced (phonetically) "more-in",
by way of variation,
Virtual Dinnerparty: Dylan Moran « Snoogiewoogie's WeblogMoran is pronounced 'MOARN, usually mistaken and pronounced 'more-an', of course the unusual pronounciation has something to do with the fact that the man ...
now failte,your own name is pronounced round here:foycha.undoubtedly its different in standard gaelic,but thats the west cork variation
and the name whooley is welly,and also wooley.
never mind the fish fingers,just get your facts right.

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24 Jan 08 - 09:04 AM (#2243549)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Snuffy

Poppagator,

At a monthly folk session I attend in the heart of the English countryside, our Mr Doran pronounces his surname DOOR-en, while Mr Moran prounces his Ma-RAN (like meringue without the G sound at the end)

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24 Jan 08 - 09:09 AM (#2243556)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Mr Happy

McCanno?

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24 Jan 08 - 11:45 AM (#2243659)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: PoppaGator

Thanks Snuffy, kat & everyone. No definitive answers (not that I expacted any) but plenty of interesting stuff to muse over.

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24 Jan 08 - 11:47 AM (#2243661)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: katlaughing

Well, it's fun, isn't it, Poppa?:-)

Theydon Bois Thee-den-bwah? Thed-boyz? Taydn-boy?

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24 Jan 08 - 06:00 PM (#2243982)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Tattie Bogle

Have we had Milngavie yet? (Mulguy!!!)

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24 Jan 08 - 07:49 PM (#2244080)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: McGrath of Harlow

It's Thaydon Boys

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27 Jan 08 - 07:18 PM (#2246578)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Rowan

There are two towns in Oz named Wauchope. The one in the New England is pronounced WARhope and the one in the Top End is pronounced WALKup; I haven't a clue how the distinctions arose.

The Goonoo Goonoo (pronounced GUNNa GUNNoo, as Sandra indicated) is just south of the New England and was the location of the earliest of the cattle camps when cattle were brought into the area in the 1830s. Cattle produce a lot of dung, in quantities much bigger than the Aborigines of the area had ever seen and there weren't any dung beetles to get rid of it. The local Aboriginal language word for "shit" was "goonoo"' with a short "oo" (as most of us might pronounce "book") in the first syllable and, because there was A LOT of it, the word was doubled. But the earliest written versions had a "u" for reasons I can't locate, although there were lots of Scots involved. This led to the current pronunciation, possibly influenced by strained relations between the local Scottish settlers and their English bureaucrats.

There are lots of Scottish place names on the northern tablelands of NSW and the story is that the more Scottish locals became more and more pissed off with the Sydney administration in the 1830s and 1840s, leading to persistent lobbying of the Colonial Office to establish a separate colony with a separate administration; their preferred name for this new colony was "New Caledonia". After a while, the Colonial Office dealt with them by establishing a new colony, but the border was 100 miles or so further north and the new colony was gazetted as "Queensland". Further, all maps of the northern tablelands of NSW would in future have, in the largest font on the map, the name "New England" printed across them.

Cheers, Rowan

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27 Jan 08 - 07:37 PM (#2246592)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Rowan

And to get to the original question, most in Oz (with no personal experience of Scotland) that I've heard say the name, pronounce M(a)cPherson as Mcfurson with a short "fur", even though the stress is on that syllable. I do have a colleague at work, who migrated here from somewhere in the Scottish highlands and who extends that syllable slightly, to the extent that I hear it as "fair", and this is how I've always heard it pronounced by anyone in Oz who sings MacPherson's Lament.

Cheers, Rowan

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27 Jan 08 - 07:39 PM (#2246597)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: JennieG

Both my great-grandfather and grandfather worked on Goonoo Goonoo station, in fact my grandfather was born near there. I've always known how to pronounce it, but it certainly trips up the unwary.

Cheers
JennieG

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28 Jan 08 - 08:26 AM (#2246903)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Sandra in Sydney

My great-aunt also worked there, she was employed as a seamstress by the Australian Agricultural Company & later had a dressmaking business in Peel St, Tamworth. None of this was mentioned when she married in 1919 when she was described in the local paper as a spinster who had done voluntary work in the recent war.

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28 Jan 08 - 05:55 PM (#2247395)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,leeneia

'I do have a colleague at work, who migrated here from somewhere in the Scottish highlands and who extends that syllable slightly, to the extent that I hear it as "fair", and this is how I've always heard it pronounced by anyone in Oz who sings MacPherson's Lament.'

=====
Everybody gather round! Rowan has actually responded to the original question. Furthermore, the original question had two parts, and she responded to both of them.

Thanks, Rowan!

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28 Jan 08 - 07:30 PM (#2247473)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Rowan

Thanks leeneia; my pleasure.

Although nobody on Mudcat has seen the primary distinguishing marks of my sex, several (including JennieG and Sandra) have observed most of the secondary ones. The beard is a bit of a giveaway, as is the baritone.

And to add a bit of info about pronunciation of Scottish names, I grew up pronouncing my name with the 1st syllable as in "row your boat" (as well as wondering why I had been given such a Scottish name; nobody in my family had any knowledge of Scottish connections) and it wasn't until I met Alistair Anderson that I found out the Scots pronounced the 1st syllable as in "one unholy row".

Cheers, Rowan

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13 Jan 13 - 09:45 AM (#3465439)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Kentucky

My birth name was McPherson and I was raised to pronounce it with the fur sound.

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13 Jan 13 - 02:39 PM (#3465558)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,leeneia

Whether it's spelled McEwan or McKeown, I would have no idea of how to pronounce it. So I agree that there's no improvement in the alteration.

Many years ago, I worked as an attendant at a public pool. One summer we were ready to close and catch the bus home, except that there was a forgotten five-year-old to deal with. Given the neighborhood, she probably had a long, hard=to-pronounce name of Polish derivation. She couldn't tell us anything of herself or her family except that she was "Denise."

That was when I decided that family names should be recognizable, pronouncable even by the littlest members, and spellable by the general public.

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13 Jan 13 - 03:14 PM (#3465568)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Megan L

How do you spell MacPherson? SMITH he got fed up wie ejits askin him every twa seconds and changed it.

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13 Jan 13 - 03:18 PM (#3465569)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: dick greenhaus

MacPherson rhymes with person, but final syllable pronunciation seem to vary , generally somewhere between FUR and FAIR.

Btw, in Chicago, there's a main street pronounced go-EE-thee spelled Goethe. And a town in Massachusetts pronounced Byoona Vista. Not to mention PEE-roo. Illinois.

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13 Jan 13 - 03:32 PM (#3465578)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

I don't suppose there is a correct "universal" way to pronouce any proper noun.
For example, are we - English speakers - pronouncing the capital of France incorrectly when we say "Pa - ris".
Afterall, the French should know how to say it properly, and they say " Pa -ree".

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13 Jan 13 - 06:52 PM (#3465688)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Tattie Bogle

A friend of mine posts himself on Youtube as MacFiercesome!

And if you'll forgive a wee thread drift - a large number of Scots spell the word definitely wrongly, simply because they pronounce it DEFINAITELY (with emphasis on on the AI).
Hoo did that yin cam aboot?

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13 Jan 13 - 07:04 PM (#3465698)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Guest TF

Just because thousands of Americans pronounce it MacFeerson doesn't make them right. I've never heard anyone sing the song and pronounce it that way.
People from furth of Scotland may choose to pronounce Machinery as Mac Hinnery but here in Scotland we still pronounce it Masheenery.

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14 Jan 13 - 03:01 AM (#3465796)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

Guest TF, well according to your theory, most Americans (over 200 million) would pronounce the name "Edinburgh" incorrectly!
But, as I've stated previously, there cannot be one universal pronunciation of a place name.
For, example, according to your theory, most Brits would be pronouncing New York and New Orleans incorrectly!
But, then again, according to the French, most Americans would be pronouncing the word "Orleans" incorrectly!

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14 Jan 13 - 06:46 AM (#3465839)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Guest TF

Precisely my point Tunesmith. Just because millions do something doesn't make it right.

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14 Jan 13 - 07:28 AM (#3465847)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

Yes it does!
For example, the correct English speaking pronunciation of Paris is "Pa-ris", even though the French would call it "Pa-ree".
It's pretty simple, really.

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14 Jan 13 - 08:04 AM (#3465863)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Mo the caller

This thread prompts me to ask how you pronounce Araucaria.

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14 Jan 13 - 08:57 AM (#3465881)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler (Well-known pedant)

Slaithwaite? Chop Gate?

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14 Jan 13 - 10:24 AM (#3465921)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,crazy little woman

I know what to do. Scour Scotland for somebody named Pherson and ask him how it's pronounced. Then add the Mac.

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14 Jan 13 - 12:08 PM (#3465971)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST

Tunesmith if 10 million people with questionable numeracy think 2 and 2 is five; it's still 4.

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14 Jan 13 - 12:45 PM (#3465984)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""There was some footballer that played for Wales (I think), years ago. His surname was 'Death' - pronounced DEETH.""

I think the name was originally spelled De'Ath, and pronounced Dee ath.

Don T.

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14 Jan 13 - 01:10 PM (#3465995)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

Even in Scotland it isn't a hard and fast rule.

Visit Glasgow (often pronounced "Gleska"), and you will hear about "MacFURs'ns", while Edinburgh seems to be home to "MacFAIRsuns".

However, in some twenty holidays in Bonny Scotland, I have never met, or heard of, a "MacFEARson".

The Scots, apparently, are "AFEARED" of Naebody.

Don T.

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14 Jan 13 - 04:42 PM (#3466098)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

Guest says

"Tunesmith if 10 million people with questionable numeracy think 2 and 2 is five; it's still 4"

Your powers of logic and reasoning are probably the lowest I have ever encountered!

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14 Jan 13 - 05:47 PM (#3466123)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

I live about five miles from the village of Trottiscliffe, in Kent, UK.

It is locally variously pronounced:

Trotscliff
Trotslee
or Trosley.

The most commonly used "Trosley" has now been adopted by the owners of "Trosley Country Park", so I guess that will be the official one henceforth.

Don T.

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14 Jan 13 - 08:10 PM (#3466221)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Jack Campin

The usual way I've seen the name in this poem spelt in early sources was "Phairson":

The Massacre of MacPherson

(It's in spoofed Highland English).

Don(Wyziwyg)T has it right. The similar MacFAIRson is still the commonest pronunciation in Scots, but it's often Anglicized to MacFURson. Edinburgh is nearer to where the MacPhersons came from than Glasgow is.

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10 Jun 14 - 09:18 PM (#3632052)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Sharilyn McPherson

My maiden name Is McPherson and I was taught that it was pronounced McFurson but most of my dad's family call it McFearson. But what really upset me was when I told people my name was McFurson they would say, oh you mean McFearson like I didn't know my own name. My grandfather called it McFurson but his brother called it McFearson. I never knew why.

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11 Jun 14 - 07:53 PM (#3632311)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Gallus Moll

Mo the Caller -- Monkey Puzzle Tree (I have one in my garden)

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12 Jun 14 - 11:08 AM (#3632490)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST

The old conflict between Scots Gaelic and Doric. The "fear" variant is related to Gaelic for "man" whereas the "fur" is Doric for "I don't really speak Gaelic, I'm just a Kiwi blagging it. It's so bloody cold I don't dare open my jaw and I need to sound butch when I'm painted blue with me bits dangling in the air."

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27 Sep 17 - 01:35 PM (#3879000)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Guest MacPherson

If you talk to a Highlander with an accent it is:
Mac Fair son. If you can fake a highlander accent with s slight roll on the 'r' it sounds natural. If you can't then Mac fur son is correct.

My athair(father) always told me There's no fear in MacPherson

Cheers

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27 Sep 17 - 01:58 PM (#3879003)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Tattie Bogle

Ah'm no feart!

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28 Sep 17 - 12:05 PM (#3879138)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: Vic Smith

The important thing to remember is that "Ph" is sounded as an "F"
The "P" is silent as in sea-batheing.

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11 May 19 - 03:33 PM (#3991843)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Kenneth mcpherson

From what I'm told fur wss ouldbe correct but every one will pronounce it different

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11 May 19 - 11:34 PM (#3991867)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: leeneia

Guest MacPherson, when I imagine a Scottish person talking, it seems to me that your pronunciation, Mac FAIR son, is the most natural.

I started this thread in 2008. Eleven years, and the debate continues.

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12 May 19 - 11:52 AM (#3991953)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,keberoxu

There is a sung comedy routine,
"MacPherson and MacFee,"
on the album Highland Voyage from the 19 ... '60's, was it?

The singers are John Grieve and Alex MacKenzie.
The two names in the title are pronounced frequently
as the song is sung.

And there is indeed NO fear in MacPherson,
it sounds more like
Mac FAIR son.

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12 May 19 - 12:05 PM (#3991956)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST

Trying to imagine how my Scottish son in law would pronounce it I suspect neither "fur" not "fair" but somewhere in between unreachable by either an English or American voice.

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12 May 19 - 04:12 PM (#3991988)
Subject: RE: MacPherson [how to pronounce?]
From: GUEST,Allan Conn

There's no single Scottish accent so just cos one Scot pronounces it 'fair' doesn't mean another wouldn't say 'fer'. I'd agree 'fear' isn't the norm

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