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31 Aug 98 - 02:29 PM (#36594) Subject: History - Way Down in Shawneetown From: Mike T. Does anyone have any tidbits of History or other info about the song "Way Down In Shawneetown" (It's in the DT) Mike |
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08 May 99 - 12:33 AM (#76646) Subject: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: Mark Roffe I have a question about this uncommonly great song. The song can be found in the database. Here's the beginning:
WAY DOWN IN SHAWNEETOWN
Some rows up, we float down
My roommate of 20 yrs ago (Jessica) taught me this song. I think she told me it was written by two students on the east coast who had an assignment to write a song in the style of an old folk song. If this is correct, they sure succeeded and then some.
Jessica is a wonderful singer who is married to British guitarist Martin Simpson. She has a clear-as-a-bell voice, and always sang this song a cappella.
After looking this song up in the database, and finding it was written by Dillon Bustin (with Sandy and Caroline Paton as "source"), I went exploring the internet for more information on Dillon. I could only find him at Legacy Records, which is, I gather, Paton country (do the Patons own the label?)
I'd like to know more about the history of the song. Like was it written as Jessica explained? Who has recorded it? Is it on one of the Legacy records? ...and any other info about the song and about Dillon Bustin.
Thanks, Mark |
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08 May 99 - 12:45 AM (#76654) Subject: RE: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: Joe Offer Hi, Mark - using the filter and searching for shaw, I found threads on this song here and here (good message from Art). -Joe Offer- |
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08 May 99 - 12:56 AM (#76664) Subject: RE: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: Mark Roffe Thanks, Joe. Interesting reading in there about the town itself as well as the lyrics.
My questions about Dillon Bustin and about how the song came to be are still open, folkies (of course, the thread is only five minutes old, and I already got an answer that pointed me to some great information -- at the speed of the 'cat).
I just remembered that Jessica said the song was about rafts that were rowed for the upstream trip, and then floated down for the return. Mark |
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08 May 99 - 01:12 AM (#76672) Subject: RE: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: Mark Roffe Come to think of it, I think Jessica might have said it was about barges on the river that were pulled upstream and then floated down.... I was gonna call her in Santa Cruz to get a refresh, but it turns out the Simpson's have recently moved to New Orleans and I've got no number there for them. I'll bet Sandy must know all about Dillon and about this song. He's sure to see this thread bobbing in the muddy water sooner or later. Mark |
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08 May 99 - 01:57 AM (#76676) Subject: RE: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: Sandy Paton Flatboats were generally floated down the river to New Orleans, then broken up and sold for their timber while the crews hiked back upstream or along the Natchez Trace. Keelboats (later) were more valuable and they were hauled back upstream by "bushwhacking" brute labor. The text in the blue clicky thingy takes you to one that is not exactly the way Caroline and I learned the song. We do sing the first verse as "Some rows up, we floats down." However, we did make one conscious change, used only when singing the song for a bunch of junior-high students. I just couldn't face singing "Hard on the beech (beach?) oar" and listening to the giggles from the kids. We started singing "Haul on the beech oar" instead. Call me chicken, but those kids are hard enough to control as it is! Sandy |
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08 May 99 - 08:44 AM (#76706) Subject: RE: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: Barry Finn Hi Sandy, any clue as to the songs origin, I always thought it was traditional. I gonna send you an e-mail about Julianna. Barry |
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08 May 99 - 11:33 AM (#76710) Subject: RE: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: Paul G. Just a brief interjection to mention that if you have not heard the version of Shawneetown by my friend and fellow north Floridian, Sam Pacetti, you are missing pure genius. The CD is "Solitary Travel" on Waterbug. Sam was a protege of Gamble Rogers, and is a 23 year old finger-style magician. All of you celtic fans will appreciate Sam's treatment of the music... Blessings, Paul G. |
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08 May 99 - 01:21 PM (#76727) Subject: RE: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: Sandy Paton You know, Barry, I'm not sure. I have a vague memory that suggests Dillon got a fragment of it from an elderly southern Indiana "informant" known as "Poss'" Skaggs, then filled it out with his own contributions. But don't take that as Gospel; let me do some homework first. Got your E-mail, thanks. I appreciate it. Sandy |
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16 May 99 - 11:08 PM (#79039) Subject: RE: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: Matthew B. So what's the verdict? When was this song written, by whom, and under what circumstances? (my favorite theory is the one about the two college students) Does anybody know? |
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20 May 99 - 12:19 AM (#79993) Subject: RE: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: Mark Roffe I'd still like to know the answer to that one, Matthew.
I may have put Sandy off the scent when I mistakenly called the label on which someone recorded a Dillon Bustin song as the "Legacy" label -- it was actually the "Folk-Legacy" label, which Sandy and friends started in 1961. (The album is ONLY HUMAN, Folk-Legacy #CD-5061, by Cindy Kallet, Ellen Epstein and Michael Cicone. I don't know which of Dillon Bustin's songs are on the record, and I don't know if Dillon has written songs other than "Shawneetown.") Web searches yielded that Dillon does perform at Massachusetts festivals, but I haven't yet found a way to contact him. So...Sandy, can you tell us more about how the song came to be, or maybe how to contact Dillon? Thanks, Mark |
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20 May 99 - 12:47 AM (#80001) Subject: RE: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: Sandy Paton Still workin' on it. Sorry. I can't find my original notes. Next week we're gonna get organized! We help to market the Kallet, Epstein, Cicone recordings, Angels in Daring and Only Human, but we didn't produce them. Those two, an Cindy's solo Dreaming Down a Quiet Line were "self-produced" CDs. Now, I recently learned, they have a new one coming out on Philo, one of Rounder's labels. Sandy |
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20 May 99 - 10:17 AM (#80092) Subject: RE: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: Fadac Hi A song called "Shawnee town" was reliesed by St. Elmos Choir, a all femail sea chantie group in the Pacific Northwest. The name of the tape is White Stocking Day. I bought mine from the Hyde st. pier musium book shop, in Down town San Francisco, ca. I don't have the phone number...sorry, but that info should get you close. |
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20 May 99 - 05:38 PM (#80219) Subject: RE: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: Mark Roffe Thanks, Sandy. Don't knock yerself out -- I've been wanting to find out about this for about 20 years. Guess a little more waiting won't make much difference. Mark |
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21 May 99 - 09:26 AM (#80441) Subject: RE: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: Matthew B. But I want to know Now!!! :) |
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22 May 99 - 03:20 PM (#80806) Subject: Lyr Add: SHAWNEETOWN (sung by Dalglish & Larsen) From: Sandy Paton At long last, some information for you. Malcolm Dalglish and Grey Larsen recorded "Shawneetown" on their The First of Autumn LP (June Appal JA026). What follows is taken from the booklet that accompanied the album. We learned "Shawneetown" from a good friend of ours, Dillon Bustin. Dillon learned part of the song when he was young from a year-round fisherman (*) on the White River in Indiana. Since then he has picked up verses from travel logs and novels of the keelboat era. He even made up one of the verses. (**) Shawneetown is an Ohio River town in southern Illinois just a little south of the Wabash River junction. The town was the first Anglo settlement on the Ohio and before 1830 was the major trade center for Illinois settlers and the Indians. The nearby salt mines provided the town's major commodity. The most efficient commercial boats in those days were the keelboats. Unlike flatboats and rafts, which only travelled downriver, the keelboats made the difficult trip back as well. In the days before steam power, and before present dams tamed the river's currents, the methods for getting a boat back up river (whether "cordelling" or "bushwacking" ) involved the crew literally pulling the boat against the current. While a downriver trip from Cincinnati to New Orleans took only a few weeks, the return trip took several months. … The use of the beech oar, a long oar that most river craft had to guide the boat as well as to physically maneuver it off mudslicks and snags, was the main work of the downriver course. Here's the text as Dalglish and Larsen recorded it: SHAWNEETOWN (Dillon Bustin) Some rows up, but we floats down, Way down the Ohio to Shawneetown. Chorus: Hard on the beech oar, she moves too slow. Way down to Shawneetown on the Ohio. Now the current's got her and we'll take up the slack. Float her down to Shawneetown and we'll bushwack her back. The whiskey's in the jug, boys, the wheat is in the sack. We'll trade 'em down to Shawneetown and we'll bring the rock salt back. I got a wife in Louisville and one in New Orleans, And when I get to Shawneetown gonna see my Indian Queen. The water's might warm, boys, the air is cold and dank, And the cursed fog it gets so thick you cannot see the bank. (repeat first verse) (*) This, as I recall, is the gentleman known as 'Poss Skaggs. (**) They don't say which one, however.
That's about all I can come up with. It would seem, then, that credit for the song should be given completely to Dillon. He created the song from a fragment. |
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22 May 99 - 03:24 PM (#80808) Subject: RE: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: Sandy Paton If you copy this text, please correct "curses" to "cursed" in the penultimate verse. Thanks. [Done] Sandy, super-typist. |
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22 May 99 - 04:50 PM (#80817) Subject: RE: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: Thank you for your work on this, Sandy. I'm really looking forward to an opportunity to do something as nice for you. I've wondered about this song for many years. Now I can even pass the information on to Jessica, who taught me the song over twenty years ago. And just after writing the above paragraph, I was searching the net for albums by Jessica and her husband Martin, and I found that they also recorded "Way Down Shawneetown" on an 1994 Shanachie album called "Martin Simpson: Collection." !! I haven't heard the album, but CDNow had a short clip of the song, and it is the same song. Give it a listen. (I also found it on Tunes.com, but for some reason their cut-order is all mixed up and if you click on one song you get a different one, so the CDnow works better, at least for Shawneetown.)
Mark |
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22 May 99 - 04:52 PM (#80818) Subject: RE: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: Mark Roffe Cookie crumbled...it was me writing -- Mark Roffe |
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17 Sep 07 - 09:13 AM (#2151052) Subject: RE: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: Charley Noble refresh |
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17 Sep 07 - 10:01 AM (#2151085) Subject: RE: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: Charley Noble Here's an unrelated "Shawneetown" song: ^^ SHAWNEETOWN Shawneetown is burnin' down, Who tole you so? Shawneetown is burning down, Who tole you so? Cynthe, my darlin' gal, Who tole you so? Cynthie, my darlin' gal, How do you know? How the hell d'ye 'spect me to hold her, Way down below? I've got no skin on either shoulder, Who tole you so? De houses dey is all on fire, Way down below. De houses dey is all on fire, Who tole you so? My ole missus tole me so, Way down below. An' I believe what ole missus says, Way down below. After being flooded out several times (due more to the Engineers working on flood control, I believe), the town was moved to higher ground. When I went through there years ago, the carcases of some old stone buildings were still on the old site. The town had lost its importance. Shawneetown is referred to in other threads. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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30 Sep 07 - 01:12 PM (#2160478) Subject: RE: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: Jim Dixon I used Google Book Search to search for "beech oar" and found this, from "Lights and Shadows of American Life" by Mary Russell Mitford, 1832. The chapter is called "The Last of the Boatmen."
"Hard upon the beech oar! She moves too slow! All the way to Shawneetown, Long while ago." |
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30 Sep 07 - 03:22 PM (#2160553) Subject: RE: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: Q (Frank Staplin) I wonder if the last line should be- Long way to go. I have seen excerpts from the Mitford volumes before; they suggest that the book is worth reading. Unfortunately, the three volumes of "Lights..." are costly. A reprint was made some years ago, but it is just as expensive. Following Dixon's search for beech oar, I found this in a blog. Something newly coined? (the dialect looks false). HARD UPON THE BEECH OAR Hard upon the beech oar She moves too slow All the way tay Mandan town Long way tay go. Hard upon the beech oar Up Mizzou we go All the way to Cook's Sound Long way to go. Hard upon the beech oar Row you bastards row Big John is blowing our roofs down And it's a long way to go. |
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30 Sep 07 - 10:43 PM (#2160829) Subject: RE: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: Q (Frank Staplin) Another blog version without source; close to the version by the Patons, thread 4597: beech oar . Some poles up but we floats down, Way down on the Ohio to Shawneetown. Hard on the beech oar, she moves too slow, Way down to Shawneetown on the Ohio. Whiskey in the brown jug, cornmeal in the sack, Gonna float her down to Shawneetown and bushwhack her back. Hard on the beech oar, she moves too slow, Way down in Shawneetown on the Ohio. The water's mighty cold boys, the air is thick and dank, That damned old fog is got so thick you can scarcely see the bank. Way down to Shawneetown on the Ohio. Got a wife in Cairo, another in New Orleans, Gonna float on down to Shawneetown and see my Angeline. Hard on the beech oar, she moves too slow, Way down in Shawneetown on the Ohio. Anyone know who sang this? Way down in Shawneetown |
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17 Jan 08 - 04:11 PM (#2238717) Subject: RE: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: GUEST While listening to Martin Simpson's recording of "Shawnee Town" (from an album called "The Definitive Collection") online from Pandora pandora.com I googled the lyrics and came upon this very interesting and informative thread. THANKS, GUYS! :-) What is interesting to me is that I just updated my collection of recordings by Cathy Barton & Dave Para, which included a Christmas CD they recorded with the Paton family. Then I happen upon this lively discussion (about as lively as an eight-year discourse can be, I figure!) I am surprised that they (Barton-Para)or their late recording partner, Bob Dyer, haven't recorded this song since Bob's main emphasis was river songs, and B-P sing mainly Missouri/ midwestern/plains/river songs. I shall have to suggest it to them if they haven't already done so! Oops, I just checked their discography Cathy Barton & Dave Para discography They have indeed recorded it on one of the few albums of theirs I'm still lacking, the aptly-named "Livin'On The River". |
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19 May 09 - 12:11 PM (#2635798) Subject: RE: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: GUEST,Marlisa Clapp I know Dillon Bustin. He is launching a website soon. Are you still looking for more info? He has a concert this Fri if you are in Massachusetts. See mcdstudios.com for my contact info |
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19 May 09 - 02:59 PM (#2635924) Subject: RE: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: Art Thieme Sandy mentioned that Mr. Bustin got it from Poss Skaggs. If I recall right, "Poss" was short for "Possum" -- He either looked like that animal, or was a trapper of those. (I'm sure it has nothing to do with George Jones. ;-) Art (Still here in this thread--after all these many years!) |
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20 May 09 - 11:50 AM (#2636634) Subject: RE: Way Down in Shawneetown - Dillon Bustin From: Jacob B What's missing is a link to that website! I didn't find it, but I found a page about Dillon Bustin and his CD on CDBaby. |
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30 Dec 10 - 10:30 AM (#3063789) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: shipcmo refresh |
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30 Dec 10 - 12:16 PM (#3063875) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: ClaireBear I can't attest to its origins (though WE certainly didn't write it), but my band sings an additional verse to Dillon Bustin's Shawneetown that fits the information Sandy provided above about keelboats vs. flatboats. This verse should come just before the reprise of the first one: Keelboat boys call loud and long They're round as a barrel but twice as strong Hard on the beech oar, she moves too slow, Way down to Shawneetown on the Ohio. |
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30 Dec 10 - 02:56 PM (#3063988) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: stallion We just put it out on our new cd "Crossing the Pond", the liner notes got cocked up and it was put down as "trad" and not Dillon Bustin, however the important recording licence does have it credited to Dillon and he should recieve the royalty payment. Having said that Ron learnt the song from a scotsman in a bar in Perth, Western Ausralia, I haven't heard Dillon's version yet, perhaps Charley can enlighten us as to whether our version is a copy of his. Peter |
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30 Dec 10 - 05:11 PM (#3064073) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin From: Gibb Sahib Not sure if you guys were aware of this reference to Shawneetown in 1821, which was introduced by J. Lighter in our chanties discussion. http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=126347#2869260 You'll also find it in this publication: 1828 Hall, James. _Letters from the West._ London: Henry Colburn. The song text is: Some rows up, but we row down, All the way to Shawnee town Pull away - pull away! |
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30 Dec 10 - 05:31 PM (#3064083) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin From: Charley Noble Gibb- Nice to have this historical note added to this thread. Charley Noble |
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31 Dec 10 - 03:28 PM (#3064626) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: GUEST,leeneia I just read a book, author Jay Feldman, that deals with this part of the world. It is: When the Mississippi ran backwards : empire, intrigue, murder, and the New Madrid earthquakes. 2005 Shawnee Town even gets a mention. The book combines history and geology. I was especially interested in the description of the colossal New Madrid earthquakes of 1811-1812. I think every American, and certainly every Midwesterner, ought to know about those quakes. |
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31 Dec 10 - 09:27 PM (#3064783) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin From: Charley Noble Leeneia- Surely you're not implying that a massive earthquake might happen again and that the entire set of "red states" would become a great inland sea? Thread drift but I couldn't resist! Charley Noble |
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01 Jan 11 - 11:04 AM (#3065012) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: GUEST,leeneia There might be another terrible quake, but an inland sea is not in the cards. In the meantime, people in the region should practice basic earthquake safety - water heaters strapped down, no heavy pictures over beds, a pair of shoes right by the bed, a piece of heavy furniture to hide under for every member of the family. etc |
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01 Jan 11 - 11:08 AM (#3065017) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: GUEST,leeneia Here's a book I just read which finally makes sense of those inland seas of yore: Vanished ocean : how Tethys reshaped the world Stow, D. A. V. (Dorrik A. V.) Publication: Oxford ; New York : Oxford University Press, 2010. Too bad it has maps of the world that are about the size of a business card. |
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10 Feb 12 - 07:07 PM (#3305683) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: GUEST In my opinion from being around the river all my life and googleing beach oar is, it doesn't exist. I believe the line is about bushwacking the boat back and it should read " It's hard on the beach, or she moves too slow" Bushwacking is putting men on the beach with ropes to the boat to pull it up stream when it can't be poled up. Dillion, being around water, must have known this. It was confusing to me when i heard this 30 or so years ago, but thinking about the song led me to believe as i stated. I have not found any thing to change my opinion. |
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10 Feb 12 - 08:29 PM (#3305711) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: Charley Noble Guest- Interesting but would you provide some "guest handle" so we can at least keep track of you. We (well most of us on this forum) value comments that advance the discussion but it's nice to know who is generating them. Cheerily, Charley Noble (who is not Charley Noble) |
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01 Apr 12 - 08:57 PM (#3332272) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: GUEST,Harris (classmate of Dillon's) Dillon has a website, replete with phone number and other contact information: http://www.dillonbustin.net/about.html |
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04 Jun 13 - 11:52 PM (#3522874) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: GUEST @ GUEST 10 Feb 12 - You're right about bushwhacking flatboats up river, but I think the "beech oar" in the song is simply an oar made of beech wood, which is very strong and suitable to the purpose. The Google eBook "A Manual of Forestry ...: Forest utilization, by W.R. Fisher ... being an English translation of 'Die forstbenutzung,' by Dr. Karl Gayer" may shed some light: "Large quantities of wood are used for making rudders and oars. Ashwood is best, but beechwood is also used" (1896, p. 96). The tree grows throughout the eastern United States as far west as Illinois. - Peter Ellertsen, Springfield, IL |
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28 Feb 14 - 10:26 AM (#3605813) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: Squaresinger I was puzzled by 'beach oar' from the first time I read it in this spelling. I first supposed it might mean the rowing oar at the side of the beach, but I have never seen anything on board a ship named with reference to something outside the ship. If a rowing oar was meant it would have been called the starboard oar or the port oar. I didn't find any other reference that explained 'beach', so I'll stick to 'beech' or possibly "It's hard on the beach, or she moves too slow". Anyone with thoughts on beach versus beech? Arend |
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19 Feb 16 - 05:00 AM (#3773705) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: GUEST,Tuco Being old enough to remember the Fess Parker "Davy Crockett" movies, I recall scenes where Davy was on a keel boat(?) that was propelled by men walking the length of the boat, from bow to stern, with long wooden poles that were long enough to reach the river bottom so that as they pushed against the pole while walking the length of the boat, it pushed the boat forward. In that regard, "beach" (or river bottom near enough to shore for the poles to reach the river bed) might make more sense than naming the wood which those poles were made of. As far as an "oar" goes, that might not necessarily have to be what we might think of as a wooden pole with a flat blade that pushes against water, not the river bed. More like such, maybe: https://youtu.be/WYRtziLzSjQ 'Course, that's presuming Hollywood got it right for river boat propelling of that period. |
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16 Nov 17 - 11:15 PM (#3888945) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: GUEST,Berkeley Chanteyman I'm interested in publishing my band's recording of this and would appreciate any clarification regarding the copyright. I searched the online copyright database here: http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?Search_Arg=Shawneetown&Search_Code=TALL&PID=py6zcCF6HwZYsqVKZL_w9krAhdq1&SEQ=20171116224732&CNT=25&HIST=1 I didn't find any reference to Dillon Bustin, though there are entries for Dalglish, Larsen & Sutherland -- but on the latter it's not clear whether they claim copyright for the lyrics or just (p) on the recording for this song. (Disclaimer, I'm not a lawyer.) I tried contacting Dillon Bustin-- I was able to find him on Facebook and tried PM'ing him but that was a while ago and I have as of yet received no reply. I'd be interested in hearing from "stallion," above, in particular, since he seems to have had some experience with this but I would also welcome any additional feedback. Thanks! |
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17 Nov 17 - 02:04 AM (#3888948) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: Joe Offer Hi, Chanteyman - there's a message above from Sandy Paton (click), the late owner of Folk-Legacy Records. Sandy says that Dalglish, Larsen & Sutherland learned the song from Dillon Bustin, who made up at least part of the song. I'm hoping Dillon will respond to your Facebook message or mine and give us definitive information. Here's the URL for Dillon Bustin's Website:There's contact information there. -Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor- |
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17 Nov 17 - 06:42 AM (#3888974) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: GUEST,Gerry There's a fine recording of Shawneetown on an album by the Australian group, The Roaring Forties. The album has the great name, Life of Brine, and was released in 2008. |
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17 Nov 17 - 11:26 PM (#3889065) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: GUEST,Chanteyman Thanks Joe! Me too. |
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17 Nov 17 - 11:41 PM (#3889067) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: GUEST,Chanteyman Now I remember why I tried contacting Dillon Bustin via Facebook Messenger-- the email address given on his website, dillonbustin@dillonbustin.net, doesn't work. |
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29 Nov 17 - 04:37 PM (#3891281) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: GUEST,Chanteyman Well, I just got off of the phone with Mr. Dillon Bustin. I've arranged to send him the royalties for The Dogwatch Nautical band's use of Shawneetown on our upcoming CD. The email contact information on his website is obsolete but the phone number worked. I should have tried that sooner, duh! :-) Of interest to Mudcatters is this part of our discussion, Dillon actually wrote ALL of the verses except ONE, not the other way around. Unfortunately, I didn't have that info in time to update the liner notes on our album but I promised to do that here. (Don't ask me which verse is the one he didn't write-- I neglected to ask. Maybe I'll get to that when I send him our CD.) Cheers, Steve Aultman |
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29 Nov 17 - 08:53 PM (#3891324) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: Joe Offer Thanks a lot, Steve. I'm glad we finally have this clarified. I credited the song to Dillon Bustin when I sang it last week. Glad I was correct. Joe |
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29 Nov 17 - 08:57 PM (#3891326) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: Rapparee There's this and other versions of the song on You Tube. |
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30 Nov 17 - 03:54 AM (#3891361) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: Mr Red searching for beech oar will get a few results. But Guest's grammatical explanation is very appealing. I say this many times: having two meanings in a song (or three if we include pole) is perfectly reasonable, and makes the song connect with more people - who take the meaning they think of first, usually. We build a virtual image in our minds, it is what humans do. The song is as much art as it is a fossil. Given it's authorship. Comparing historic/logic interpretation, it only has value in a discussion like this. I like the song, and revel in the discussion. Win Win! |
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03 Jul 22 - 04:48 PM (#4146176) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: GUEST,talithamac When I recorded this in 1986, with Dillon Bustin singing on the chorus, he gave me words to a couple of extra verses. This is my version: Vs 1 Some row up but we float down Way down the Ohio to Shawneetown Cho And it’s hard on the beech oar It moves too slow Way down to Shawneetown On the Ohio Vs 2 Now the current’s got her and we’ll take up the slack We’ll float her down to Shawneetown and bushwack her back Vs 3 The whiskey’s in the jug, boys, the wheat is in the sack We’ll trade ‘em down in Shawneetown and bring the rock salt back Vs 4 Got a wife in Louisville, one in New Orleans When I get to Shawneetown gonna see my Indian queen Vs 5 Them hoop-pole boys talk loud and long Round as a barrel and they’re twice as strong Vs 6 I like to fight, I can take my knocks But not like last Saturday night at the Cave-in-Rock Vs 7 The water’s mighty warm, boys, the air is cold and dank And the cursed fog it gets so thick you cannot see the bank Rpt Vs 1 |
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05 Jul 22 - 12:05 PM (#4146344) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: leeneia Here's a clear map of the Ohio River with the states labelled. not near New Orleans [Funny how they don't label the states on the SOUTH bank of the Ohio. Too banjo-ridden, maybe?] Throughout this discussion, bear in mind that these rivers used to be much wider and much slower than they are today. Today's rivers have been engineered to handle big boats, mostly barges. As you can see, the Ohio starts at Pennsylvania's western border and ends at the southern tip of Illinois, where it joins the Mississippi. (Where Huck and Jim got lost in the fog.) For other information, see Sandy Paton's post from May, 1999. Shawnee was in Illinoi where the Wabash River comes in from the north. The boatmen in our song are taking whiskey and wheat from Pennsylvania and Ohio to Shawnee and will take rock salt from Shawnee back upriver. So New Orleans, the Natchez Trace and the Mississippi don't come into this journey. Our boatman will get to see his wife in Louisville, but not the other one. It never seems to occur to these guys that their various "wives" could have had various "husbands", depending on who's in town and who's slogging their way back north. Must have been complicated. Given how hard it was to go back upstream, it makes sense to have shorter journeys such as this. By the way, I don't think there were many beaches, because if there had been, they would have been using draft animals, not humans, to go upstream. Oddly, the actual Wabash Cannonball, the train takes good hoboes to Heaven, didn't run near the Wabash River. And that reminds me: Oh the moonlight's fair tonight along the Wabash. Through the fields there comes the breath of new-mown hay. Through the sycamores the candle lights are gleaming on the banks of the Wabash, far away. |
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06 Jul 22 - 12:39 PM (#4146480) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: GUEST,henryp Banjo News Letter November 2012 Shawneetown By Tim Jumper https://banjonews.com/2012-11/shawneetown.html Shawneetown When I first heard the song a few years ago I assumed it was as old as it sounded. Only recently did I learn of its contemporary (circa 1996) genesis, the details of which Dillon related to me via e-mail: “My original sources for Shawneetown were two fragments included in Leland DeWitt Baldwin’s “The Keelboat Age on Western Waters” (Pittsburg, 1969)... Baldwin quotes James Hall’s “Letters from the West, Containing Sketches of Scenery, Manners, and Customs” (London, 1828): Some rows up, but we rows down All the way to Shawneetown, Pull away – pull away! In his endnote Baldwin further quotes Neville’s The Last of the Boatmen in a compilation edited by James Hall, “Western Souvenir”(1828), p. 114: Hard upon the beach oar! – She moves too slow! – All the way to Shawneetown. Long while ago. These fragments became my first verse and chorus: Some row up, But we float down, Way down the Ohio, To Shawneetown. Hard on the beach oar, She moves too slow, Way down to Shawneetown On the Ohio.” Dillon wrote several additional verses evocative of the early 19th century keelboat era when Shawneetown, Illinois was an important frontier trading center, and his catchy pentatonic melody stands worthy of comparison with the best of the prolific Mr. or Mrs. Anon. What he has given us is a new American folk song; so when you sing it for other folks, be sure to tell them who wrote it. |
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07 Jul 22 - 12:28 PM (#4146633) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: leeneia Thanks for that complete and helpful statement, Henry. I think it wraps up for good the story of the composition of 'Shawneetown.' |
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06 Jan 23 - 12:26 AM (#4161458) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch RE: This seems to be the main thread for James Hall (above and link to Lighter's post.) He did not become “Judge” Hall until 1824, so unlikely to publish as such in 1821. Otherwise identical text –– “Nor did the amusements of the night end here. The adventure of the whipping post had exhilarated the spirits of the crew, who now seating themselves in groups on the bank, actuated, no doubt, by the genial influence of "the chaste cold moon,” began to chant their rude ditties of "bold young fellers," and "ladies gay;" an accomplishment in which some of them had acquired a tolerable proficiency, and which they appeared to value more highly than their rough natures would seem to indicate. Here was a fund of entertainment for me. It is amusing to see poetry dressed in rags, and limping upon crutches. Dignified and lovely as she is in her robes of majesty, she becomes the most quaint, ingenious entertaining little imp imaginable, when she condescends to play the hoyden; and I assure you, that I adored her with ten-fold ardour, when I beheld her versatility, and saw her, like a good republican, conforming herself to the company in which she happened to be thrown. She has indeed risen wonderfully in my opinion, in which of late years she had rather sunk, in consequence of the suspicious company she had kept––a virago with Lord Byron, a voluptuary with Anacreon Moore, and with Monk Lewis, a wrinkled old hag. She has again appeared in her native integrity; I have seen her in the robes of nature, and heard her in the innocency of her heart. To the admirers of the simplicity of Wordsworth, to those who prefer the naked effusions of the heart, to the meretricious ornaments of fancy, I present the following beautiful specimen verbatim, as it flowed from the lips of an Ohio boatman: Its oh! as I was a wal-king out, One morning in July, I met a maid, who ax'd my trade,–– Says I “I'll tell you presently,” “Miss, I'll tell you presently!” I challenge the admirers of that celebrated poet to point out, in all his works, or in those of his disciples, a single verse which is more simple, more descriptive, or which contains so much matter in so small a compass. In the following amatory stanza, the lover betrays his tenderness with great delicacy: Here's to you, and all the rest, And likewise her that I love best; As she's not here to take a part, I'll drink her health with all my heart.” What a manly spirit breathes through each line, where the poet pays an honest tribute to poverty, sympathises with the forlorn wight, too often the object of ridicule, who lives in " single blessedness," and satirises the cupidity of the world, all in the compass of a single verse, as thus: “Here's to those that have old clothes, And never a wife to mend 'em; A plague on those that have half joes, And hav'nt a heart to spend 'em.” There was one ballad particularly, of a very pathetic nature, which I regret I have forgotten, as the singer observed very feelingly, that "he set more store to it, than all the rest." It began thus: "Oh! love was the 'casion of my downfal, I wish I had'nt never loved none at all! Oh! love was 'casion of my misery, Now I am bound, but once I was free!" But I have no more room for criticism. These brief extracts will convince you that I have not decided in favour of the “River Melodies,” on slight grounds. By some future opportunity, I will send you some more of them; in the mean while I bid you good night, in the words which the rowers are even now sounding in my ears as they tug at the oar: Some rows up, but we row down, All the way to Shawneetown, Pull away-pull away!” [Letters from the West, Letter III, April 18th, Oliver Oldschool*, The Port Folio, 1821] *more to follow. |
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06 Jan 23 - 12:34 AM (#4161459) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch *Oliver Oldschool was the pseudonym for a collection of authors writing for Joseph Dennie (1768–1812), founding editor of the The Port Folio. This, to include Dennie himself and Sarah Ewing Hall (1761–1830), mother of: John Elihu Hall (1783–1829), who succeeded Dennie as owner/editor of the Port Folio and Harrison Hall, publisher and contributor to the Port Folio and; James Hall (1793–1868), briefly resident of Shawneetown and co-owner/editor of the local newspaper. He lost his first re-election to the bench and by 1827 was listed as Illinois State Treasurer. And, little doubt, the Oldschool in question. Nautical Trivia: Army Lt. James Hall served “TDY” as a gunnery officer on the second Enterprise (Kearny) for five months of the Second Barbary War. Most bios have him resigning that commission to return to law studies but he may have left under some duress after first returning to Army duties. |
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06 Jan 23 - 01:14 AM (#4161461) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch More on Mitford: “...In a few minutes afterwards, we observed their keel wheeling in the current, the gigantic form of Mike* bestriding the large steering oar, and the others arranging themselves in their places in front of the cabin, that extended nearly the whole length of the boat, covering merchandize of immense value. As they left the shore, they gave the Indian yell: and broke out into a sort of unconnected chorus, commencing with –– “Hard upon the beech oar! She moves too slow! All the way to Shawneetown, Long while ago.” In a few moments the boat “took the chute” of Letart's Falls**, and disappeared behind the point with the rapidity of an Arabian courser.” [Last of the Boatmen, Lights and Shadows of American Life, Vol.I, Mitford ed., 1832] Mary Russell Mitford (1787–1855) *Mitford's boatman is none other than Mike Fink (c.1770/1780–c.1823). [wiki] **Letart's Falls is a bit downriver of Shawneetown & Cave-in-Rock. Frontier trapper Jimmy Stewart gets mugged at the latter in How the West was Won. In the same year as Mitford, Judge Hall, owner-writer-janitor of the Illinois Monthly Magazine, created the fictional singing Canadian boatman/voyageur Michel de Coucy. |
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06 Jan 23 - 08:37 AM (#4161492) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: Lighter Of note: Cleveland Herald (Apr. 30, 1845): "Every body has heard of Mike Fink, the famous keel-boat captain.... 'Long time ago,' when Mike was on a voyage 'all the way to Shawneetown,' with a 'bully boat and a bully crew,' he found himself compelled to lay up a short time at Louisville...." Walnut Valley Times (El Dorado, Kans.) (Oct. 1, 1887): "Transportation on the Ohio before steamboats was on keel boats. ...The hands...usually sang in passing a town. All joined in a chorus, 'All the way to Shawneetown, row, boys, row. All the way to Shawneetown, row, boy, row." |
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06 Jan 23 - 10:48 AM (#4161494) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: Lighter The Western Messenger I (Nov., 1835): “For a time we feared we should have to pause upon the rude boat-songs and wild choruses of Mike Fink, and his redoubtable companions: ‘Hard upon the beach oar,’ ‘All the way to Shawneetown,’ ‘Row! Row! On the bright ‘Hio,’ &c.” Henry Brown, The History of Illinois (N.Y.: J. Winchester, 1844): “There [is] something, even at this day, on which the imagination delights to linger, in ‘All the way to Shawneetown; long time ago.’*… *The chorus of a favorite boat-song.” That was nearly 180 years ago! And there's no record of the old tune! So what's the continuing fascination with the words, "on which the imagination delights to linger," which many writers have quoted in print into the 21st century. There's the prosody (aw...aw...aw...o), the exoticism of "All the way to Shawneetown" and the nostalgia of "Long time ago." For me it's also the mental connection of the image with Disney's "Davy Crockett Meets Mike Fink" and "Davy Crockett and the River Pirates." |
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06 Jan 23 - 09:13 PM (#4161555) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch No music... yet. Our lyrical world is sure getting smaller though. Mitford's ultimate source for Mike Fink was Judge James Hall's The Western Souvenir for 1829 (Cincinnati.) Haven't located the original but, The Last of the Boatmen chapter with Shawneetown and beach oar (with an “a”) appears in: The Critic: A Weekly Review of Literature, Fine Arts, and the Drama, 10 January 1829: The literary contents of this, as of the other Annuals, are furnished by different writers, among whom the editor has performed the largest share. The prose portion possesses greater merit than the poetical. We copy the opening lines, by James Hall, which are a favorable sample of the latter; and the sketch, entitled, The Last of the Boatmen, which bears the signature N. is perhaps as interesting as any prose selection which we could make…. N=Morgan Neville (1783-1839) per Beginnings of Literary Culture in the Ohio Valley: Historical and Biographical Sketches, Venable, 1891. |
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09 Feb 23 - 10:22 PM (#4164739) Subject: RE: Origin: Way Down in Shawneetown (Dillon Bustin) From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Not sure where this fits in. Field & Hall were two-of-a-kind. “There was water enough on the “Falls”; it was a bright day in spring, and at an early hour, all hands at their posts, Mike was guiding his clean and trim built “keel,” the Mary––still adhered to the name, and it had always been a charm to him, he said––through the rapids, below Louisville. There was not much peril in the passage, at the moment, and the exhileration was only of the pleasant kind. “That's like a lady!” cried Mike, as, under the bold and skillful guidance of his sweeping stern oar, his craft a moment yielded to a powerful eddy, and then drew out again with a graceful curve. “See how she puts her feet out! Dances like a fairy, by gracious!” “As we go as we go Down the O-hi-o, There's a tight place at Louisville, You know boys, know.” “Jabe Knuckles!” shouted Mike, “one of them Philadelphy noospapers you've got sorted away, tells about a York feller that's got a steam fixin' to take boats up rivers without hand, hoss, or hawser! I reckon he'll never try 'ginst this water, eh?”” [Field, Last of the Boatmen, Half Horse Half Alligator: The Growth of the Mike Fink Legend, Blair, Meine eds., 1956] Published in serial form by Field's own St. Louis Reveille c.1842 Joseph M. Field (1810–1856) |