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06 Feb 08 - 10:11 AM (#2254958) Subject: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: mandotim I, like many others in the UK, take more than a passing interest in the US Presidential election process. One thing that really grates in this election is the comment by so many US commentators about the election of 'the Leader of the Free World'. Excuse me? I live in what passes for 'the free world'...do I get a vote? It wouldn't be so bad, but I've heard Dubya refer to himself and his office in these terms. The monumental arrogance of this remark explains a lot about how much of the rest of the world seems to regard America just now. It may just be election hubris, but I suspect that the roots are deep in America's self-image. Please don't misunderstand; the Americans I know in person are by and large thoughtful and delightful human beings with a proper respect for the nationhood and rights of others. What I don't understand is the preoccupation of US government and media with attempting to impose their will and values upon the rest of humanity, using whatever economic, political and military tools come to hand. If we are all expected to dance to America's tune, what has become of the 'free world'? Tim |
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06 Feb 08 - 10:45 AM (#2254984) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Riginslinger mando - Yeah, I live here, and I cringe myself when I hear those arrogant talk like that. It's embarrassing. |
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06 Feb 08 - 10:51 AM (#2254987) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Amos Mister Bush has not, in fact, ever been the leader of the free world. He is the leader of a world in which people must be loyal or be fired, in which any intrusion into private life is justified in the name of war, and in which even the laws passed by the Senate may be set aside by a signing statement voicing the Executive's exceptions. This is NOT a free world in the original sense of the expression. A |
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06 Feb 08 - 10:59 AM (#2254990) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Barry Finn You'll have to excuse our village idiot. He has a gorillia complex & beats himself on the chest quite often & he's gets quite a bit of encouragement from the other hairy beasts that he surrounds himself with or maybe I should say that those around him beat their chests in the same fashion. While some of US do see ourselves in a position of military dominance in the world, it does US little good, as you can see from our present attempt to do exactlly that, dominate the "unfree" world, we have stretched ourselves pretty thin & are about to not only lose a war that's illegal & never should've been started & by the way which you, England choose to follow US into, so you can share some of the blame for being a ewe, but one that's also about to bankrupt US & send US the same way as the USSR. So you can gladly have Bitannia ruling the waves once again if you'd prefere or you can do US a favor & rebel, or shell the shit out of US. Either way, those beating their chests about being the leaders of the free world are the present leaders over whom we are trying to throw out (they are out of control & I for one am truly sorry about that but I try), they do not speak, represent, of care for the rest of US & we do not care for them. There are some here on mudcat that may disagree but they like the rest of on country are in the minority, hopefully. Don't paint US with the same brush that you would our leaders, please, any more than you would have us paint you with the same brush as your PM or your Parliament or your Royals for that matter, thank you. We cannot really stop those nations that choose to follow the idiot's lead, that's their/your problem. We have a much bigger problem to deal with at the moment & that's (in reguards you the subject on hand cause we have plenty of other problems just as deserving) to get our idiots to stop their aggressive behavior & to bring a halt to the attiude that spawns the thought that their even needs to be a free world opposing an unfree world. We would prefere a world that free from US & we'd like that same freedom for ourselves at some point too. We would also ask you help in doing whatever you can to curb your own nations. Thank You Barry |
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06 Feb 08 - 11:08 AM (#2254996) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: manitas_at_work We, England, didn't choose to follow the US Government into war. Our Government, the British Government, did. |
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06 Feb 08 - 11:11 AM (#2255001) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: CarolC A lot of people in the US see our president as being the "leader of the free world", and you're right, mandotim, its roots are deep in the way a lof of the people in this country see us as a nation (ie: we are the greatest nation in the world - we are the most freedom loving people in the world [ha!] - we are the most generous people in the world - we are the most advanced nation in the world, etc). My response to this particular bit of hubris, however, would be, "what 'free world'"? |
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06 Feb 08 - 11:18 AM (#2255006) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Don't forget, we did not invent hubris. I can't think of a civiliazation that hasn't taken pride to the extreme. It wasn't long ago that the Brits were proclaiming world domination as "Britannia rules the waves" and "the sun never sets on the British Empire". Colonialism proved to be the downfall of the Brits, and this current hubris has certainly hurt the U.S. |
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06 Feb 08 - 11:20 AM (#2255008) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko well put Barry! |
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06 Feb 08 - 11:25 AM (#2255015) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Rapparee He and his are going, have been since the 2004 election. Only now are folks starting to realize it. I'd LOVE to see a real leader for the US in the White House, much less for the "Free World". Haven't had one for quite a spell now. |
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06 Feb 08 - 11:27 AM (#2255017) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: mandotim Ron, I entirely agree with your point about hubris and Britain; There is a great deal to learn from the histories of once-powerful nations and empires, dating back to the fall of Rome and perhaps beyond. The problem is, no-one in the US government, media or industrial fields seems to have any regard for (or even knowledge of) anything much beyond the Revolution and the borders of the USA. With all that economic and military power, why do they need to be interested in the ways of the rest of the world? A historian friend of mine summed it up well. 'History repeats itself; it has to, because no-one listens...' Tim |
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06 Feb 08 - 11:29 AM (#2255021) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Mooh I've stated here before that this is highly offensive to me. LOTFW my ass. That'll be the day. Peace, Mooh. |
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06 Feb 08 - 11:33 AM (#2255026) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: kendall If I could meet mr. Bush, I would say to him, "Just remember, the smallest dog can piss on the biggest building." Then I would turn my back on hm and walk away. When I travel abroad I go out of my way to be an ambassador at large. So far, I have never been asked to leave, or told not to return. |
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06 Feb 08 - 11:43 AM (#2255032) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "The problem is, no-one in the US government, media or industrial fields seems to have any regard for (or even knowledge of) anything much beyond the Revolution and the borders of the USA. " I'm not sure if that generalization is true, or if it is different from what you would experience in any other country. I certainly agree that those in charge of all three areas look at their own self-interests first, but that is not to say that everyone agrees. I believe that you can never underestimate the power of of those that think differently, and never lump everyone together. |
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06 Feb 08 - 11:45 AM (#2255033) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: mandotim Correction accepted Ron; I was over-generalising. Tim |
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06 Feb 08 - 12:47 PM (#2255075) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: wysiwyg ... preoccupation of government and media with attempting to impose their will and values upon the rest of humanity.... Pardon me, but for a moment there I thought you were referring to British colonialism. Ouch? Yeah, well, I'm tired of US-bashing by people who assume Mudcatters are both the exception and the apologists for every ill you see from so far away. How about turning that spyglass back in time into your own country's backyard. Ever see your US Mudcatter "pals" giving you guys a hard time about your past or present societal and governmental struggles? Maybe your royals can wave a magic wand and set it all right. ~Susan |
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06 Feb 08 - 01:31 PM (#2255118) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: M.Ted You're right, of course. Nothing is free. It should be "Leader of the Discount World". |
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06 Feb 08 - 01:46 PM (#2255136) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: mandotim Susan; I made no excuses for British colonialism, and nor was I 'bashing America'. I do 'turn the spyglass back in time' and hopefully learn something. Unlike you, I feel no need to defend the past wrongs of my nation in order to excuse the current situation. Wrongs are wrongs, irrespective of nationality. In my view America has the potential to be the greatest of all forces for good in the world (as it has so often been in the past), but the narrow minded, parochial and downright selfish behaviour of a few powerful interest groups in your nation means that that potential is being twisted into a divisive and malign influence. Your comment about 'our Royals' is revealing. You clearly understand nothing about the role of royalty in a constitutional monarchy, and tends to confirm my sense of the deep-seated attitude that systems of government other than US style 'democracy' are not worthy of your attention. Our system is emphatically not perfect; but it is different to yours in many respects, and should be respected as such, as I respect yours. I sincerely hope that the system of checks and balances inherent in your brilliantly drafted Constitution are restored via the current electoral process, and that America can begin to rebuild its reputation in the world. Respectfully Tim |
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06 Feb 08 - 01:49 PM (#2255141) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Peace "A historian friend of mine summed it up well. 'History repeats itself; it has to, because no-one listens...'" 'History repeats itself because historians repeat each other.' Anon. |
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06 Feb 08 - 01:50 PM (#2255143) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: mandotim LOL Peace! Tim |
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06 Feb 08 - 01:53 PM (#2255145) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Little Hawk There is no "free world". It's a myth. Some other posters noted that too. There are only relative degrees of more or less freedom here and there, a mixed picture everywhere, which is to say...some people have a bit more freedom in this or that respect than others do, but NOBODY is completely free. The concept "leader of the Free World" is rooted deeply in past American mythology (and believed by many Americans....but not believed by a good many Americans now). You'll hear it repeated again and again by politicians and commentators, because it's a cliche, a standard piece of politicial rhetoric. As others have noted, America's present hubris arose following a lengthy period of really extraordinary hubris on the part of the enormously successful British Empire. The British, in their own inimitable fashion, were just as arrogant in their assumptions of innate societal superiority over others for several centuries, but they kind of ran out of money after the two World Wars, and the USA quickly supplanted them as the foremost superpower. So it goes. Winston Churchill must have found it profoundly disturbing to see it all slipping away! ;-) Those last few mighty dreadnoughts of the Royal Navy proceeding mournfully to the breakers' yards in the 1950's...while the US Navy patrolled the oceans of the world with its new fleets of modern aircraft carriers. Well, all things pass, don't they? The French have also enjoyed periods of great national hubris, most notably under Napoleon when they rather briefly dominated almost all of continental Europe. The Russians have enjoyed periods of great hubris. So have the Germans and Italians and Japanese, but only very briefly. So it goes. They all had grand pretensions when their tide was running highest. The use of the term 'the Leader of the Free World' by US media commentators is ridiculous....but don't expect them to stop using it. ;-) They're reading off a very old script that has been in use for so long now that it's become like wallpaper. They say it without giving it any real thought, I would assume...or else they're living in a perpetual state of fantasy. |
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06 Feb 08 - 02:09 PM (#2255164) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: autolycus WYSIWYG, i thought us Brits had just been bashed a bit, about their colonialism, wave-ruling, arrogance, world-dominating tendencies 'n' stuff. btw, the correct words of the hymn are "Britain RULE the waves",('rule' not 'rules; a wish/demand, not an assertion of an existing fact. nalopkt.) Both the US and the UK are cut from related cloth in being insular, wanting to control, indifferent to the ways of others, except to work/figure out how to make money out of it, or at least control it; directly in the case of the UK; subtly, by means of an economic system, in the case of the US. We both claim to be free and to like freedom, yet we both get very disturbed by signs of real independance. Actually, many are far happier with docile conformists who do the decent thing aka being regular guys (and gals). i'll go away and carry on being silly on a silly thread now. Or go and feed some people on the hunger site - you know - do something real and practical. Ivor |
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06 Feb 08 - 02:24 PM (#2255175) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Little Hawk Ha! So true, autolycus. ;-) Cut from pretty much the same cloth, indeed. "Rule, Brittania! Brittania rule the waves! Britons never, never, never shall be slaves!!!" (sing repeatedly, lustily, with great pride and emotion...truly a consummation devoutly to be wished...ah, yes, I can see it now...great fleets of wooden walls or grimly towering ironclads bearing down upon the swarthy heathen, the Frenchman, the Spaniard, the African, the Asian, the foreigner of whatever motley variety...dispensing swift and terrible retribution from thundering cannon and spreading the greatness of British law and justice around the globe! Gad! I grow flushed and breathless at the very thought of it...) ;-) As a boy, growing up in Canada, the Redcoats were my heroes. No doubt about it. Such is national fervour. |
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06 Feb 08 - 03:07 PM (#2255231) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: wysiwyg Unlike you, I feel no need to defend the past wrongs of my nation in order to excuse the current situation. That is a frank insult. I didn't say any such thing and it is totally foreign to my nature. You seem far more prepared to press your own already-rigidified opinion than to relate honestly to real live USers. Have a nice day. ~Susan |
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06 Feb 08 - 03:52 PM (#2255280) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: mandotim Susan; if I misinterpreted what you were saying, I'm sorry; it was not my intention to insult you, and I'd appreciate clarification of what you did mean. Tim |
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06 Feb 08 - 06:13 PM (#2255397) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: M.Ted I have a friend who works as a waiter, in a large hotel dining room. Sometimes, people don't show up for work, and the other wait staff have to cover--which means that they must do twice or even three times as much work, and suffer verbal abuse because the service is slow-- A lot of us American Mudcatters feel like that about now--we have been put upon severely by an oppressive leader, and one who stole the office, at that. And now, we are all taking regular hits about everything that the UK catters find annoying about us, our music, our leaders, and even the side of the road we drive on. There are now two threads that are transparently snide America-baiting threads--the Britain Reposessing States" one having quickly moved from a discussion of a rather old bit of comedy to and equally tired old discussion about American guns--and there have been others recently. The acrimony has been evident for a long time, and it keeps getting worse. One gets the impression that some people are trying to drive the Americans off the site, and in fact, on a number of occassions, it has been said directly. There was a time that I was eager to meet a lot of you "across the pond", but I am not sure that I, as an American, would be very welcome--and that's about where it stands. So now you know. |
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06 Feb 08 - 06:23 PM (#2255412) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Richard Bridge Well, actually, Susan, yes, I do see many people here who grab every opportunity to reframe the reputations of certain terrorists (not the current ones) who killed many Englishmen and many of their own contrymen, and to call those who defended England and its neighbour states from them colonialist murderers. And I am pretty sick of it. And I know whose money largely funded said terrorists, and whose courts refused to extradite them and dignified them with the name of political prisoners, if they were caught. |
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06 Feb 08 - 06:26 PM (#2255419) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Jim Lad I don't waste a lot of time being polite when I hear that term. Talk about arrogant? |
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06 Feb 08 - 06:56 PM (#2255447) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Little Hawk It would be a lot like calling the Queen the "Leader of the Free World", wouldn't it? I don't think anything even vaguely like that has been suggested since Queen Victoria. |
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06 Feb 08 - 09:36 PM (#2255559) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Peace Is it safe to come out now? |
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06 Feb 08 - 11:00 PM (#2255603) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Little Hawk SMACK!!!!!!! |
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06 Feb 08 - 11:03 PM (#2255605) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Peace Guess not. |
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07 Feb 08 - 04:55 PM (#2256295) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: kendall M Ted, I have traveled extensively in the UK and I have never been treated like the "Ugly American".Why? Because I don't ACT like the ugly American! The people I've met there all seem to know that most of us didn't vote for Bush so they don't hold us responsible for his actions. We share many things with the people in the UK, being geocentric is only one of them. |
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07 Feb 08 - 05:12 PM (#2256318) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: mandotim Hear hear, Kendall. I was talking about the very few powerful people and groups in the USA who frame the political and economic agenda. I don't hold the majority of Americans responsible; just as I hope you don't hold all Brits responsible for some of the stupidities committed in our name by government and business. Having said that, I would feel responsible myself if I didn't get out and vote to try to change things. Tim |
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07 Feb 08 - 05:20 PM (#2256325) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Jim Lad And I'm relieved to know that most Americans didn't vote for him! What? Bruce: The Oxford dictionary definition of "Smack" is "A loud kiss". Just how safe you are depends on whether or not your friend was using the Webster's. |
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07 Feb 08 - 05:31 PM (#2256335) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Peace LH, you devil, you. |
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07 Feb 08 - 06:04 PM (#2256362) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Donuel Don't sell George W Bush short! He bragged today that he learned how to e mail. This is a great advance seeing that during his father's campaign it was discovered that he had no idea whatsoever how much a gallon of milk cost. |
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07 Feb 08 - 06:37 PM (#2256392) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Riginslinger The way I remember Bush Senior was, he was amazed to discover a code scanner in a supermarket after the rest of us had been using them for 10 to 15 years. |
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07 Feb 08 - 07:48 PM (#2256435) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: kendall Jim Lad, it's our screwed up system. Gore won the popular vote but Bush won the electoral vote. Then also, the court stopped the counting while Bush was ahead. |
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07 Feb 08 - 07:54 PM (#2256439) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: McGrath of Harlow But surely most American didn't vote for Bush, M.Ted. About half of those who voted voted for him - slightly less than his main opponent first time, slightly more the second time. But about 40% of the electorate didn't vote for anyone. ............. "America-baiting threads" - I think "teasing" might be a more accurate way of putting it, a game that gets played in all directions, generally without any malicious intent. It's true enough that in some circumstances real bullying can disguise itself as "only joking" - but I can't see that applying here most of the time. |
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07 Feb 08 - 07:55 PM (#2256440) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Little Hawk The USA electoral system is a joke, in my opinion. Then there's all the gerrymandering that occurs...when a party that's in power redesignates the boundaries of voting districts in order to improve its chances to win in the next election. Then there's election fraud, which I suspect is far more widespread than people realize. Then there's Diebold...no paper trail. Then there are ballot boxes that anyone can easily open immediately after the voting by pulling off the low-tack sticker that supposedly protects the results...and they could replace the real ballots with false ones. Then there's the corrupted Supreme Court and other levels of government who can compromise the process, as they did in 2000. It's a game. The $ySStem plays. The people lose. |
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07 Feb 08 - 07:55 PM (#2256441) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: McGrath of Harlow But surely most American didn't vote for Bush, Jim Lad. About half of those who voted voted for him - slightly less than his main opponent first time, slightly more the second time. But about 40% of the electorate didn't vote for anyone. ............. "America-baiting threads" - I think "teasing" might be a more accurate way of putting it, a game that gets played in all directions, generally without any malicious intent. It's true enough that in some circumstances real bullying can disguise itself as "only joking" - but I can't see that applying here most of the time. |
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07 Feb 08 - 08:55 PM (#2256468) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Donuel BUSH DID NOT WIN THE ELECTORAL VOTE He won the Supreme Court vote. |
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08 Feb 08 - 12:09 AM (#2256536) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Jim Lad Thanks guys. I was having a little dig at Kendall but had never given much thought to the 40% who didn't vote. Interesting point. |
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08 Feb 08 - 12:11 AM (#2256540) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Jim Lad MoH: What's that wee spiel at the bottom of your posts about? |
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08 Feb 08 - 03:37 PM (#2257119) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: McGrath of Harlow That refers back to M.Ted - PM Date: 06 Feb 08 - 06:13 PM |
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08 Feb 08 - 03:45 PM (#2257129) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Stringsinger Remember Tim that it was not too long ago that Britain had empirical designs on the rest of the world. This "leader of the free world" nonsense is an aberation of history and has been practiced ad nauseum by almost every country. I do agree, however, that the current US preoccupation is a little more crazy than you would find elsewhere recently. The "free world" is being eroded here in the US with the trashing of the Constitution, habeas corpus, and spying on American citizens by a dictatorial White House. Also, in the conduct of an illegal war and subsequent occupation of Iraq. The "leader of the free world" is a propaganda device not unlike that used by "der Fuehrer" or "Il Duce". Frank |
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08 Feb 08 - 03:46 PM (#2257131) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Amos Frank: ...Britain had empirical designs on the rest of the world. Sure -- all those steam engineers, road builders, canal-diggers and so on. And they also had imperial designs.... A |
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08 Feb 08 - 04:08 PM (#2257151) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: mandotim Britain did indeed have an Empire, back in the days when such things were fashionable; so did France, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Japan, Russia, China and others. Britain tended to exploit other nations ruthlessly for both raw materials and manufactured goods to feed the world's first Industrial Revolution. In return, we tried to fashion the colonies into replicas of the British system of governance. Sixty-odd years on, it seems that the legacy is mixed; although it is possible to argue that most former colonial citizens live in established, stable democracies (Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India) there are some nations who are still struggling to come to terms with an identity other than an oppressed colony (much of Africa). Some lessons have been learned; it would be difficult to classify the foreign policy Britain of today as Imperialist. That phase of our history is well and truly over, and hopefully will never be repeated. My original point was to show how the language and attitude adopted by powerful groups in the US is colouring the view of the rest of the world towards America; I don't believe this is fair or reasonable, especially as so few Americans were involved in electing the current administration. I repeat; I sincerely hope that the Constitution and a fair electoral process comes to the rescue of America, and that America regains its standing as a tremendous agent of good in the world. At the moment I believe that standing is in the balance. Tim |
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08 Feb 08 - 04:40 PM (#2257182) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Jim Lad As far back as the Romans and even further back I'm sure, ambitious men have sought to reign over foreign nations, rob them of their resources and have the victims fund the whole thing. Mr. Bush needs to work on that funding thing. It will happen again. Japan, China, India... who knows? Time for a nice lady to take the office, I think. |
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08 Feb 08 - 06:49 PM (#2257295) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: Rapparee With appropriate apologies: [Spoken:] Is she really going out with him? Well, there she is. Let's ask her. Condi, is that W's fealty you've sworn? Mm-hmm Gee, it must have been great working with him Is he promoting you today? Uh-uh By the way, where'd you meet him? I met him at the White House door He turned around and smiled at me You get the picture? (yes, we see) That's when I fell for (The Leader of the Free World) Folks were always calling him dumb (dumb, dumb) They said he came from the wrong side of dumb (Whatcha mean when ya say that he came from the wrong side of dumb?) They told me he was bad But I knew he was sad That's why I fell for (The Leader of the Free World) One day the voters said, "Elect someone new" I had to tell my W we're through (Whatcha mean when ya say that ya better go elect somebody new?) He stood there and asked me why Just lookin' stupid and shy I'm sorry I hurt you (The Leader of the Free World) [Spoken:] He sort of smiled and told me goodbye The tears were beginning to show As he rode away on that January night I knew that he was slow But whether he knew, I'll never know Look out! Look out! Look out! Look out! I felt so helpless, but what could I do? Remembering all the things we'd been through At the RNC they all stop and stare I can't hide the tears, but I don't care I'll never forget him (The Leader of the Free World) The Leader of the Free World - now he's gone The Leader of the Free World - now he's gone The Leader of the Free World - now he's gone The Leader of the Free World - now he's gone [Fade] |
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08 Feb 08 - 06:55 PM (#2257300) Subject: RE: BS: Leader of the Free World??? From: McGrath of Harlow In German it'd be Führer, and in Italian, Duce... Maybe not such a great title to get landed with. |