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19 Feb 08 - 05:01 PM (#2266724) Subject: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton Thought I'd throw this into the fray...my curiosity was piqued by somebody branding me "Another Acoustic Rock Singer Songwriter" earlier today... Got me thinking, because I have to say I've always viewed "Acoustic Rock" as being something of a contradiction in terms. "Rock", as I understand, is a diminutive of "Rock and Roll"; which in turn was originally formed by the fusion of Blues and Country/Bluegrass styles, played on primarily ELECTRIC instruments...surely then acoustic rock is a misnomer; should more acurately be termed acoustic blues-country-bluegrass-fusion?? Or is it merely a term of abuse? I'd be interested to hear your perspectives...or alternatively, just offer whatever happens to be on your mind, pertinent or otherwise! |
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19 Feb 08 - 05:05 PM (#2266729) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: John MacKenzie Rock and roll is a style in my opinion. Whether it is played acoustically or electronically, it's still Rock 'n Roll. After all electric folk is still folk, [allegedly], but that's a whole other can of worms. G :) |
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19 Feb 08 - 05:06 PM (#2266730) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Borchester Echo Not hard. The output of an ARSS is . . . ? |
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19 Feb 08 - 05:13 PM (#2266745) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Sandman Diane, you need a sense of humour to play it. Thank God, I havent got a sense of humour. |
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19 Feb 08 - 05:17 PM (#2266753) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive) Whether it is played acoustically or electronically, it's still Rock 'n Roll. [allegedly] Charlotte (you do wonder sometimes) |
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19 Feb 08 - 05:19 PM (#2266757) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Borchester Echo Sigh indeed. fRoots FAQ explains all. |
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19 Feb 08 - 05:23 PM (#2266763) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: John MacKenzie What do you wonder Charlotte? |
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19 Feb 08 - 05:25 PM (#2266764) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton Well, thanks for the input thus far, people... Personally I find rock a little too complex to play...playing power chords on an acoustic guitar is a little tough on the wrists in my experience (insert unfunny gag here). |
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19 Feb 08 - 05:25 PM (#2266765) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: irishenglish Agree with John. "Primarily" means nothing-early rock had a lot of piano in it, technically an acoustic instrument, bass in the early days was mostly stand up bass, again acoustic, and the same goes for horns. Someone like, off the top of my head, Pete Townshend (when he plays Who material solo) is still playing loud, and at times aggressive, which to me is rock regardless of being played on acoustic. Now there are lots of other examples of this, but I think the argument is not one of instrumentation per se, but of attitude. I saw John Hiatt about 10 years ago with his band, and although he was playing acoustic, that was one of the loudest damn shows I have ever been to, and was definitely rock in terms of attitude. Flip side is when I saw Nils Lofgren do a show at a little club, which was a lot more mellow, but the attitude, was all rock. In both cases, neither of these guys qualifies as singer songwriters (Ok, Hiatt, maybe some would argue), or blues, or country or whatever. That to me means acoustic rock. Bob Seger's Night Moves is another classic example, strummed acoustic, bass, drums, piano, female backup vocalists. Not a loud song, but no question, he's rock, and in the case of that song, an acoustic rock song if you will |
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19 Feb 08 - 05:27 PM (#2266766) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Borchester Echo I Wonder As I Wander, John Jacob Niles. Not an ARSS. |
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19 Feb 08 - 05:31 PM (#2266773) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Rowan I'm sure I remember seeing saxophones in several early rock groups, as well as the pianos drums, double basses mentioned by irishenglish. But, these days, it's possible "Acoustic Rock" is rock music that can be heard by someone who still has functioning eardums. Cheers, Rowan |
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19 Feb 08 - 05:33 PM (#2266778) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: John MacKenzie ARSS Antiquariorum Regiae Societatis Socius (Fellow of the Royal Society of Antiquaries) ARSS Adelaide River Show Society (Australia) ARSS Amateur Radio Spread Spectrum ARSS Audio Really Simple Syndication ARSS Autonomous Rotorcraft Sniper System (US Army DoD) |
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19 Feb 08 - 05:45 PM (#2266791) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Mr Red one thing is should be is quieter. However such is the misuse of language to suit whatever the purveyor wants it to mean, acoustic can mean amplified. In that if it isn't plugged in. The microphone doesn't count? I have seen the word unplugged used to imply acoustic. The microphone being rather noticable. The acoustic stage nights in Bath (UK) had "PA available" emblazoned across the website. I doubt they survived. Anyway - good luck if it is acoustic and if not, I have earplugs. |
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19 Feb 08 - 05:50 PM (#2266798) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive) an record I recently acquired has some tracks that could probably be acoutic rock...Twangin' n' a Traddin' by The Ashley Hutchings Big Beat Combo. I mean Telstar (old hit from The Tornadoes) on the melodeon? Superb! Charlotte (real rock n roll from Ma and Pa's piano stool) |
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19 Feb 08 - 05:54 PM (#2266801) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Borchester Echo You're all missing the dreaded "SS" bit. |
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19 Feb 08 - 05:58 PM (#2266806) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: John MacKenzie Totenkopf Rock Diane? |
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19 Feb 08 - 05:59 PM (#2266807) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton Mr Red brings up an interesting debate, in so far as, by strict dictionary definition, obviously an amplified "acoustic night" open mic is of course nothing of the sort...nonetheless given the nature of the venues they tend to be held in; without decent amplification most of the performers would be completely inaudible over all the pub chatter. And these nights (the good ones anyway) do provide an invaluable platform for those (normally acoustic, and often folk-ish) artists not doing paid gigs on a nightly basis whether by choice or otherwise. |
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19 Feb 08 - 06:03 PM (#2266814) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Peace Gene: Rock written on an acoustic axe. The 'feel' of rock. What 'folk' that isn't trad will evolve to. |
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19 Feb 08 - 06:07 PM (#2266819) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Borchester Echo normally acoustic, and often folk-ish artists not doing paid gigs = a very long and convoluted way of saying ARSSs. And an excellent example of why the word "f*lk" has lost all vestige of meaning, has far exceeded its sell-by and should be consigned forthwith to the bin. |
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19 Feb 08 - 06:09 PM (#2266822) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton Rock written on an acoustic axe?? Shouldn't that be rock CARVED ON by an acoustic axe? |
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19 Feb 08 - 06:10 PM (#2266824) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: John MacKenzie Wrong Diane, it is misapplied ad nauseam, but actual folk will always exist. G |
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19 Feb 08 - 06:10 PM (#2266825) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive) What Is (fill in the appropriate musical genre)? Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool) |
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19 Feb 08 - 06:18 PM (#2266837) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Borchester Echo actual folk will always exist So call it by a far more readily comprehensible, already widely-used and far more accurate term, "traditional music". That will save it from being confused in the minds of the general public with any old trite, MOR crap. And those who perpetrate it can keep the clapped-out, meaningless term. |
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19 Feb 08 - 06:22 PM (#2266840) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton Actually, having mentioned gigs, I ought to plug my next folky one, at the Fo'c'sle Folk Club in the Richmond Inn, St Denys, Southampton, on Friday 14th March; to give any southerners ample advance warning (insert predictable pop here). It'll be a fiver-ish to get in, I think; and there should be opportunities for floor spots before I go on at about nine. |
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19 Feb 08 - 06:26 PM (#2266846) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton ...and that's ENTIRELY UNAMPLIFIED, BTW! Might not do any Who covers, though... |
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19 Feb 08 - 06:28 PM (#2266848) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Peace Call it folk-rock, Gene. Means as much as any other term. The trad people can't agree on what trad means either. |
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19 Feb 08 - 06:33 PM (#2266851) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Peace Taking away the mystery of acoustic rock. |
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19 Feb 08 - 06:42 PM (#2266857) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton LOL! Now, that'd make a great flat-top box with the right guage strings! |
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19 Feb 08 - 06:56 PM (#2266869) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: GUEST,volgadon Nearly all Russian rock acts (Akvarium, Voskresenye, Mashina Vremeni) in the 70s and early 80s performed in very small venues, such as a friend's house, so they were forced to play unplugged so that the neighbours wouldn't hear and turn them in. Rock was severely frowned upon by the authorities. As a result, much of their early rock has a very acoustic feel, but it's still rockish. |
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19 Feb 08 - 10:20 PM (#2267008) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: bankley Elvis played a 6-string flattop.... and he's the King of Rock & Roll true, he had Scotty Moore and James Burton plugged in... but |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:40 AM (#2267092) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Fooles Troupe Acoustic Rock would be by definition (Peace was on the right track) an Idiophone which produce sounds through the vibration of their entire body - as distinct from 'Amplified Rock' in which the audience perceive sounds through their entire body, rather than their ears - sometimes referred to as 'Idiotphones'. |
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20 Feb 08 - 08:29 AM (#2267281) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton Acoustic Rock? Judge for yourselves... |
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20 Feb 08 - 10:24 AM (#2267365) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton Hey, I've only just spotted how this thread has shrunk. Perhaps the deleted guest poster towards the beginning was none other than Diane Easby posting under an alias in order to give the appearance of a greater degree of support on here...can't think why... |
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20 Feb 08 - 10:31 AM (#2267372) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Mr Happy What is this arss you're obsessed with - what's it mean? any link to the topic? |
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20 Feb 08 - 10:49 AM (#2267387) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton It's stands for Acoustic Rock Singer Songwriter, and it's a term used by Diane Easby to smear those who challenge her bullying and slanderous behaviour on this board. |
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20 Feb 08 - 10:52 AM (#2267391) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: KeithofChester It's in the link to Chairman Ian's Little Red Book Diane gave (down towards the bottom of the page). "Q: And how about ARSS? A: fRuitcakes-R-Us office shorthand for Acoustic Rock Singer Songwriter. Pronounced as it looks". |
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20 Feb 08 - 10:53 AM (#2267394) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton ...that said, the use of the term itself did pique my interest somewhat...this IS a music discussion forum after all...(sigh)... One day I'll learn to turn the other cheek. Or possibly both. |
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20 Feb 08 - 10:56 AM (#2267398) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Fooles Troupe Gene - that's called 'mooning'... |
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20 Feb 08 - 10:58 AM (#2267401) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton ...yes, that's the line! (grin) |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:01 AM (#2267405) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: GUEST,Nigel Spencer (cookieless) Never liked the term acoustic rock (apart from the obvious mild pleasure in ARSS sounding like arse, which is the point, I suppose). It makes me think of those horrible interludes when chest-bearing, caterwauling, poodle-wearing, gurning monsters of rawk decide to get all sensitive and 'soulful' on us: a close relative of the 'rock ballad'... Total Eclipse of the ARSS, if you like. I wonder why we can't have a simple new term for singers who write their own songs and songwriters who sing what they've written? I dunno, how about 'singer-songwriters'? It also has the added bonus of not muddying the waters by using the 'f' word. There's no shame in being a singer songwriter, you know. Think 'Riverman', 'The Needle and The Damage Done', 'Time of The Last Persecution', for instance: some of these songs and the singers who've written them are marvellous. These particular songs also demonstrate the fact there's also no clause saying it's compulsory for the songs to be about the detailed examination of the contents of one's navel or any of the 57 varieties of emotional self flagellation, either. In fact such traits are to be positively discouraged - perpetrators would have to go in a seperate category called RSSS (really shit singer songwriters)... trouble is, until people have to sign a compulsory non-introspection clause when they buy a guitar, the mawkish will always be with us... Cheers Nigel |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:02 AM (#2267406) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Fooles Troupe Actually, In Oz, the phrase 'mooning around' used to mean "wandering aound with one's head in the clouds"... before the Bloody Yanks destroyed our culture... :-P |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:03 AM (#2267408) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Mr Happy Oh I see, good job we're not discussing soul as well or we'd have some other nauseating acronym! |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:10 AM (#2267414) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Tunesmith This question has always interested me. Particularly when looking at the tracks that pop up on acoutic rock compilation albums. It seems to me, that if there's an acoustic guitar anywhere in the mix, it can be labelled "acoustic rock" |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:12 AM (#2267417) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton Nigel, is that Riverman by Nick Drake? The same Nick Drake reknowned the world over for his cheery knees-up light entertainment and defiantly non-introspective songwriting?? Or some other Riverman?? Nothing wrong with melancholia in songwriting in my opinion; sadness is a human emotion felt by all of us at some time and it has every bit as much place in our music as happiness, drugs, fornication, drink, animals, the seasons, nature or whatever else people want to write about. Just some are better at putting it across with power and beauty than others (few more so than Mr. Drake IMO) |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:13 AM (#2267421) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton "It seems to me, that if there's an acoustic guitar anywhere in the mix, it can be labelled "acoustic rock"" Well, precisely. Pretty meaningless concept, huh? |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:15 AM (#2267422) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: GUEST,Nigel Spencer (cookieless) Not particularly wanting to discuss fRoots at Mudcat, but the reason its an issue over there is that they were getting inundated with promos of singer songwriter albums, which is not what they are about as a magazine, and they wanted to send a very clear message to people not to bother sending it as that sort of stuff wouldn't get reviewed. All it is is a reflection of one (very good) magazine's editorial policy. Cheers Nigel |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:17 AM (#2267423) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice It may not have anything to do with anything but I quite like it. In February 1981(John) Tams spoke to Patrick Humphries in the Melody Maker and gave a statement of intent as far as the First Eleven - as they were still named -(later The Home Service) was concerned. "We have to find what is identifiable to contemporary listeners, that also takes on board the tradition, the national heritage, and blend it with an accessible style." He defined their approach as 'rock folk' rather than 'folk rock'. His choice of words was more than a mere verbal sleight. Charlotte (found inside Ma and Pa's piano stool) |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:21 AM (#2267433) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: GUEST,Nigel Spencer (ccokieless) Precisely, Gene - Nick Drake - at his best - was outstanding. At his worst was fairly ordinary. Nothing wrong with sad songs, per se. Some of my best friends are sad songs. I just have a problem with oversentimentalised, self-indulgent, mawkish drivel. though I know exactly what I mean, I can't think of any off the top of my head, because they usually get switched off pretty quickly if they invegle their way into Spencer Towers. Cheers Nigel |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:26 AM (#2267436) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Borchester Echo the deleted guest poster towards the beginning . . . was instructing people to "ignore" me. Then relented and declared that how I described an ARSS's output was "funny". Which is entirely wrong as that is the last thing that could be said about a strumming bedroom whinger who thinks the world owes him a living because he's written this dirge about how his girlfriend left him and it's just NOT FAIR. So just another confused nutter then . . . To quote further from fR FAQ in response to a question from yet another wannabe (why?) N Drake copyist: Q: I'm an acoustic singer songwriter. That's surely OK then? A: Almost certainly not, unless your music is strongly influenced by a tradition. The musik biz categorises anybody with an acoustic guitar who writes their own songs as 'folk'. Which is fine, call it whatever you like, but fRoots isn't the place for it. |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:29 AM (#2267439) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton "..oversentimentalised, self-indulgent, mawkish drivel." Oh, OK- sorry I misunderstood you. I quite agree. The main problem with the glut of sad songs by blokes with acoustic guitars in the charts today, I think, is the fact that most are totally unmemorable, unhummable and lyrically banal. Not the fact that they ARE sad songs by blokes etc., etc. per se. I still think if a songwriter uses melodies and /or instrumental styles which draw very heavily on traditional folk, there IS a case for the application of the "F" word, though. (just waiting for somebody to pipe up with "F Off"...) |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:31 AM (#2267440) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: irishenglish For God's sake, enough! You want to trash each other, do it in private! |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:33 AM (#2267442) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: PoppaGator My friend Chandler Travis, who writes and sings songs and fronts a very non-acoustic ensemble heavy on horns and electric guitar, titled one of his albums "Writer/Songsinger." Would that be an acceptable alternative term now that "singer/songwriter" has acquired so many unintended negative connotations? Perhaps "ARWS" would be preferable to "ARSS." Back to "acoustic rock": What's electric about garden-variety rock 'n' roll is not electric intrumentation ~ it's the electric guitar, which produces an sound entirely different from that of the acoustic guitar. The degree of difference is incomparably greater than the difference between amplified and unamplified trumpets and saxophones, drums with and without microphones on them, or even between electric and acoustic bass. The electric guitar IS rock, on some level. The sound of acoustic guitar, on the other hand, is something else; something we have great difficulty defining, incidentally. "Acoustic Rock" is music with a rock 'n' roll beat and/or sensibility, in which you can hear the ringing sound of acoustic guitar string ~ occasionally instead of, but more often in addition to, the sound of an electric guitar and perhaps a few other non-acoustic instruments as well. |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:33 AM (#2267443) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive) "he's written this dirge about how his girlfriend left him and it's just NOT FAIR." then there's that fine old trad. arr I Wish I Was Single Again inwhich the singer whinges about how is wife won't leave him and is making his life a complete misery and how that's NOT FAIR :-D Charlotte (looking outside the box) |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:33 AM (#2267444) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: John MacKenzie Ah soul, Mr Happy! G |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:33 AM (#2267445) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: irishenglish Gene-melodies and or instrumental styles which draw on trad. folk. Example? |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:34 AM (#2267446) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton Don't want to trash anybody. Just rather discuss the music I love and exchange good-natured banter with likeminded people without being slandered and verbally abused. |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:38 AM (#2267450) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: GUEST,Nigel Spencer (cookieless) "For God's sake, enough! You want to trash each other, do it in private!" Actually, we're unfailingly polite to each other in private! Cheers Nigel |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:41 AM (#2267454) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton Example? Much of Richard Thompson's recorded output. Dylan's early albums. Bert Jansch's early albums. Much of Ewan MacColl's songwriting (OK, I'm not a fan, but clearly grounded in the tradition nonetheless). Kate Rusby, where she uses traditional tunes with her own words, or vice versa...(actually there are quite a few people in the folk world today doing that). Some, though not all, of my own work. And in fact a fair few of the acts you might catch at folk club guest nights in the UK (though they're by no means the only ones doing it). |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:43 AM (#2267456) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Borchester Echo melodies and or instrumental styles which draw on trad Work composed in the tradition such as that of John Tams, Chris Wood, John Dipper, Rob Harbron, Duncan McFarlane, Tom Bliss . . . could go on and on but I'm losing the will to live amid this daftness and lack of ability to recognise the bleedin' obvious. |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:49 AM (#2267461) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Green Man Buddy Holly - that's rockn roll int it? Goes well on an acoustic? I used to tdo an acoustic version of my genration. what with my grey hair and all that it went down well when I wasnt having a senior moment and forgetting the words. Rock on Folkies... GM |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:49 AM (#2267462) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Borchester Echo And, almost forgot, Alisdair Fraser. Harking back to the mention of Ewan MacColl, most definitely the work of Sandra Kerr who has passed it on to daughter Nancy. And, also stretching back to the 1970s, the writing of Pete Coe, Bob Pegg and Barry Dransfield. |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:51 AM (#2267467) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: GUEST I was about to do a list ... but nearly all mine are on Diane's list so I'll just add Lal Waterson and Steve Ashley. What I do know is that I wouldn't put the writers of the three songs I mentioned in my post of 11.01 on any such list... Cheers Nigel |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:52 AM (#2267470) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: irishenglish But Gene, to be fair, you started talking off about rock, and the people you just mentioned all have their hand in the tradition, they are folk musicians/singers, and are labelled as such. Now, someone like Jethro Tull have had a lot of folk related melodies in their music, and they have done a handful of traditional songs over the years as well. But I consider when they do that, the material is folk inspired, it doesn't classify as folk. See the difference? |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:53 AM (#2267471) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: GUEST,Nigel Spencer (cookieless) And Alasdair Roberts and - some of the time - Sharron Kraus. |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:58 AM (#2267479) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Richard Bridge Shock horror! US murders Australian culture? Is Barry McKenzie in there anywhere? |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:58 AM (#2267481) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: PoppaGator Hereabouts, among the young, I understand that the new(-ish) and relatively precise term for the genre of performance that most of us old folks hate, that most-self-indulgent and self-pitying kind of adolescent "singer-songwriter" crap, is "EMO." For "emotional," I assume. Whatever "acoustic rock" may be, I would like to stipulate that it's not exactly the same thing as "folk rock." The former is defined by sound, the latter by lyrical content and attitude. James Taylor performing a Marvin Gaye song, for example, is acoustic rock. Maybe even Tom Rush doing Chuck Berry and Bo Diddly, as he did way back in 1964 or so on his first LP. More recent examples are of course too numerous to mention The Byrds and the Grateful Dead are folk rock, though perhaps not for every song they do. (The Dead would occasionally perform "unplugged" and thus qualify as Acoustic Rock as well, but their usual instrumentation and approach was highly electrified and "non-acoustic," while their songwriting, on the other hand, was always deeply rooted in American folk traditions.) |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:00 PM (#2267484) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Richard Bridge Actually, I think rock is primarily rhythmic not melodic. That may assist in your hunt for a definition for it. Diane - "Trad" will not do and you perhaps more than most should be able to see why. Just use "folk" correctly and sneer at the ignorami. |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:02 PM (#2267488) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Ruth Archer "Emo" stands for Emotional Hardcore. It is definitely NOT ARSS music. I'm with Diane in thinking that people who appreciate music rooted in the tradition need to abandon the F word altogether. It is doing us more harm than good. |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:04 PM (#2267490) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive) ""Trad" will not do" John Tams has used the term popular music Charlotte (currently reading an old interview with John Tams) |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:06 PM (#2267492) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton irishenglish, I don't think we're actually disagreeing on anything here. "folk musicians/singers, and labelled as such"- yes, and with good reason. Jethro Tull I'd place pretty squarely in the category of "folk-rock"; ie. folk songs played with rock instrumentation- a different albeit related genre. For my own part; all I can say is everybody who's seen me at gigs, open mic nights or wherever and has spoken to me offering a description, would describe me as a folksinger. The vast majority of those who've heard me at my (these days sporadic) forays into folk clubs, too. Never been called acoustic rock by anybody who's listened to more than three bars of my music, which was why yesterday's dig was a new one on me, I must admit. But, like I say, judge for yourselves |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:09 PM (#2267499) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: GUEST,Nigel Spencer (Coookieless) I agree with Ruth and Diane. Traditional music and music rooted in tradition just about covers it. Of course, give it five minutes and every two-bit singer of introspective navelgazery will abandon folk and claim to be 'rooted in tradition'... Cheers Nigel |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:10 PM (#2267501) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: GUEST,Nigel Spencer Sorry Gene - that last post wasn't meant to be dig at you... |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:10 PM (#2267502) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Ruth Archer " I can say is everybody who's seen me at gigs, open mic nights or wherever and has spoken to me offering a description, would describe me as a folksinger." I've seen you sing. I wouldn't. |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:13 PM (#2267503) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton Fine! |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:16 PM (#2267507) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive) Pretends to look for some sheet music Charlotte (head inside Ma and Pa's piano stool) |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:18 PM (#2267510) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Peace What kind of music does Ruth Archer sing? |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:19 PM (#2267513) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Ruth Archer My favourite tune goes like this: Dum de dum de dum de dum, Dum de dum de da da.... |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:20 PM (#2267515) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton Joan/Ruth/Whoever is of course perfectly entitled to her opinion, but she is in a small and dwindling minority. Mercy, they ain't dying quietly, though!! |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:21 PM (#2267517) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Peace Do you follow that with a rock chorus "Dum dum de de" or a trad chorus of "De de dum de"? |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:25 PM (#2267521) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Peace "The public is the only critic whose opinion is worth anything at all." Mark Twain |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:27 PM (#2267523) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Sandman Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton - PM Date: 20 Feb 08 - 12:06 PM irishenglish, I don't think we're actually disagreeing on anything here. "folk musicians/singers, and labelled as such"- yes, and with good reason. Jethro Tull I'd place pretty squarely in the category of "folk-rock"; ie. folk songs played with rock instrumentation- a different albeit related genre. For my own part; all I can say is everybody who's seen me at gigs, open mic nights or wherever and has spoken to me offering a description, would describe me as a folksinger. The vast majority of those who've heard me at my (these days sporadic) forays into folk clubs, too. Never been called acoustic rock by anybody who's listened to more than three bars of my music, which was why yesterday's dig was a new one on me, I must admit. But, like I say, judge for yourselves. yesterdays dig,are you an archaeologist as well . |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:27 PM (#2267525) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive) If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen - Anon Charlotte (whose favourite composer is, of course, Trad. Arr.) |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:27 PM (#2267526) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Peace How DARE they call you a folksinger. The NERVE! Good to see you, CB. |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:28 PM (#2267527) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Ruth Archer "she is in a small and dwindling minority." Evidence, please? As it happens, I'm about to go to dinner with a bunch of musicians and singers, many of whom have already been mentioned on this thread. I don't think most of them would consider you a folk singer, Gene, but they might think of you you a singer-songwriter. Nothing wrong with that, IMHO. By the way, they're not old farts, either: several of them are under 30, or hovering thereabouts. Peace: Trad chorus every time. I prefer the Sunday morning omnibus version myself. |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:28 PM (#2267528) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: irishenglish That's fine Gene, and I'm not trying to disagree, just offering opinion. But Jethro Tull have delved into folk rock, it would be wrong to classify them as only that! Fairport, Steeleye, Albion (with or without John Tams, Charlotte!),Oysterband, etc, those are your folk rock bands. On that previous post you made it seem as though you were saying that some obvious folk or trad performers, like MacColl were only "folk" when they used a recognized folk melody. Thats what got me scratching my head |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:33 PM (#2267533) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Borchester Echo Ruth's favourite tune is traditional (I think) and is played by the Yetties every Sunday morning on R4, She collected her second fave from Tom Forrest, an old yokel in The Bull pub (aka Bob Arnold), a trad ditty called The Village Pump. Ruth Archer's standpoint represents a rapidly growing body of opinion intent on valuing and disseminating our wealth of tradition and national heritage. And absolutely not quietly. |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:36 PM (#2267539) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Ruth Archer Quietly? Bloody hell, that's be a challenge... :) I miss Tom Forrest. |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:36 PM (#2267540) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Peace Heaven forfend it should be quiet. Trad is wonderful music, as is much contemporary material from singer-songwriters, many of the aforementioned remarks notwithstanding. Have a NICE day. |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:37 PM (#2267541) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive) "Albion (with or without John Tams, Charlotte!)" I was merely quoting an article I was reading, I, like my Dad and late Mom, enjoy any of the line ups of Tee Albion Band(s)so please..... Charlotte (has The Battle of the Field(with no John Tams) in the CD player as we speak) |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:38 PM (#2267543) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: GUEST,highlandman Diane writes: >the deleted guest poster towards the beginning > >. . . was instructing people to "ignore" me. Then relented and >declared that how I described an ARSS's output was "funny". > Don't go impugnin' on me honor, now, matey.* May I clear the record? The original unidentified guest poster was NOT highlandman. I post as "guest, highlandman" because I am too lazy to fight with the cookie-eating demon that lives in my computer. I always identify myself although I may not be logged in, except when I forget, in which case I always make it right afterward. I did post as myself afterward to get in a friendly dig at Diane at the original (deleted) guest's expense. Surely Diane realizes that her online persona is legendarily abrasive and worthy of the occasional left-handed compliment, which is what my "funny" remark was meant to be. Not that I think any crap singer-songwriter's output is particularly funny (how some people turn things around!), I just got a chuckle out of the ARSS poke and (not being an fRoots denizen) I had never heard it and credited Diane with making it up on the spot. But I'm glad my post was deleted because without the original one there it looked completely random. Ah, forget it. I actually had something to say on the thread topic but now I don't remember what it was. -Glenn (who is and always will remain highlandman) === * -- lest I be scathed for presuming to refer to anyone as 'matey,' I suppose I should cite this as a quote from Barbossa of "Pirates of the Caribbean." -G |
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20 Feb 08 - 12:47 PM (#2267550) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton "The public is the only critic whose opinion is worth anything at all." Precisely what I was trying to say in my post of 12:06. Thanks for clarifying my thoughts, Bruce! |
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20 Feb 08 - 01:13 PM (#2267579) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: GUEST,Nigel Spencer (stiill cookieless) "The public is the only critic whose opinion is worth anything at all." In which case we're ALL doomed... tradsters and singersongers alike. |
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20 Feb 08 - 01:20 PM (#2267588) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Peace The critics would have us think their opinion is valuable, but it is only valuable to those who can't make up their own minds. Those who can, do. Those who can't, criticize. |
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20 Feb 08 - 01:27 PM (#2267599) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive) "The critics would have us think their opinion is valuable, but it is only valuable to those who can't make up their own minds". and this your opinion, right? So, I'll ignore it and make up my own mind, if you don't mind. Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool) |
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20 Feb 08 - 01:29 PM (#2267602) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Grab The easiest way... If you took the electric music and put it on acoustic instruments, would it sound like folk (whatever you consider folk to be)? If if you took the acoustic music and put it on electric instruments, would it sound like rock (whatever you consider rock to be)? Graham. (And test 3: If you took the combined efforts of everyone to define the words "folk" and "rock" and dropped them off a cliff, would anyone who listens to the music give a damn?) |
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20 Feb 08 - 01:40 PM (#2267610) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: PoppaGator "Emo" stands for Emotional Hardcore. It is definitely NOT ARSS music. Well, Ruth, you probably know more about this than I do, although regional/national differences may have something to do with it. I have only heard the term in reference to self-indulgent singing of "original compositions" in a mostly-ascoustic coffeehouse setting, in New Orelans, LA, USA. To my mind, the term seemed to denote music aspiring to "ARSS" status and falling short. |
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20 Feb 08 - 01:42 PM (#2267613) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Ernest Grab: Depending where you count singer/songwriters one or two of your tests wouldn`t work... Would Cliff give a damn? Regards Ernest (are these brackets contagious, Charlotte? ;0) |
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20 Feb 08 - 01:43 PM (#2267614) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive) "If you took the electric music and put it on acoustic instruments, would it sound like folk (whatever you consider folk to be)?" You could of course, listen to Rubber Soul - The Beatles and then listen to Rubber Folk - various artists (the folk interpretation of Rubber Soul) Charlotte (can't think why I didn't think of this before) |
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20 Feb 08 - 01:57 PM (#2267623) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Peace However, if you took eclectic instruments and put them on a plane, would that be--sorry, gotta go. |
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20 Feb 08 - 02:01 PM (#2267627) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Ruth Archer Hi Poppagator, My 14 year old daughter, for my sins, is an Emo. She dresses like a baby Goth, bless her. Last year I took her to a seven-hour long Emo gig (my penance for all those years of folk festivals). There was no acoustic music to be heard, and nothing that would ever get past the door of a coffee house. If only. It was VERY loud. Very electric. And then, of course, there is the lovely sub-genre called "Screamo", which pretty much does what it says on the tin. That was pleasant. Especially when my ears started to bleed. None of the Emo music I've heard is remotely acoustic, though it is very self-involved and navel-gazing. But I would say it's more of a post-punk, post-metal phenomenon. At least in the UK. PS: anyone over the age of 15 who listens to Emo really wants to have a word with themselves. |
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20 Feb 08 - 03:11 PM (#2267712) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: PoppaGator I suppose the coffeehouse denizens I encountered were "emo" songwriter wannabes, working up their creations acoustically in hopes of eventually performing them at tortuous volume with headbanging accompaniment in other venues at another time. These were college-age kids, more or less, at least a few years over the age of 15. Maybe they were using the term "emo" ironically. |
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20 Feb 08 - 08:38 PM (#2268091) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Fooles Troupe "anyone over the age of 15 who listens to Emo really wants to have a word with themselves" Pointless really, they're deaf, as well as stupid.... :-P |
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20 Feb 08 - 11:03 PM (#2268209) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Severn I submit "Long Train Gone" off of Marty Stuart's "Busy Bee Cafe" album as a tune played entirely acoustically and with no drums that definitely be said to rock out in its own way just fine. |
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21 Feb 08 - 03:19 AM (#2268297) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Richard Bridge I have had an inspiration. The issue about whether something is hard rock soft rock garage RnB soul dance trance emo screamo metal death metal heavy metal god rock or acoustic rock is about form and content. They depend on subjective perception not any determinable parameters and absolute definition is not therefore possible. "Folk" (correctly used) however is determined not by content but by derivation and state and is therefore definable. |
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21 Feb 08 - 03:49 AM (#2268317) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) "The public is the only critic whose opinion is worth anything at all." Did anyone see the Brits last night?... So's going to be the first to bow to the opinion of the great British public and accept that Take That are the best we can offer? Cheers Nigel (throwing away his folk CD collection in deference to public taste) |
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21 Feb 08 - 06:34 AM (#2268375) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton In all seriousness, Nigel, I genuinely submit that there was some quality songwriting on Take That's latest album; and one can't deny Gary Barlow has a great voice. There's actually been a great deal of musical development, even sophistication, creep in since their boyband days. On the wider issue of public opinion, my perception is that the Brits are more of an industry stitch-up than anything...OK, maybe Joe Punch-Clock gets his say in the final vote, but it's the industry which determines who's on the shortlist in the first place...a bit like those "elections" in Communist countries where you mcan vote for who you like...as long as they're Party-approved. |
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21 Feb 08 - 07:41 AM (#2268400) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Ruth Archer Which award ceremonies have a public vote to decide the shortlist? |
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21 Feb 08 - 08:27 AM (#2268445) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Grab Peace, if it included various small percussion instruments, we could make a film about it: "Shakers on a Plane". A plane full of serious musicians is sabotaged by evil terrorists smuggling on shakey-eggs and tambourines. We could even have Samuel L Jackson shouting "Muthafuckin spoons-players!" before shooting them all. Nurse, who are these people, and why are they asking me to wear a white canvas coat with such long arms...? |
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21 Feb 08 - 08:54 AM (#2268461) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: KeithofChester ...I genuinely submit that there was some quality songwriting on Take That's latest album; and one can't deny Gary Barlow has a great voice. There's actually been a great deal of musical development, even sophistication, creep in since their boyband days. I pointed out to several friends about 12 months back that their earlier single Patience (another Gary Barlow composition) was structured VERY similarly to Richard Thompson & Tim Finn's Persuasion. Now of course RT is often venerated in folk circles, but Gary Barlow? After the initial shock at quite who I was comparing with whom, several of those friends actually admited to liking the said song and saw the similarity. By the summer last year, even the local Chester buskers weere playing it. They being a discerning lot, they certainly did NOT play Gary Barlow songs the first time round back in the early 90s, even with him a local boy. So yes, independent corroboration that his songwriting has much improved. Although the clues were there, in his earlier opus Back For Good |
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21 Feb 08 - 09:12 AM (#2268468) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: GUEST,Nigel spencer (sans cookie) Yup, there it goes. The last one finally melted. Nice clean empty CD racks, ready to recieve the collected works of Gary and his chums. |
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21 Feb 08 - 09:22 AM (#2268483) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton I agree, Back For Good was always quality pop single. And the way Barlow's voice segues effortlessly between his normal range and falsetto is worth the admission fee alone, IMO. Nigel, (chuckle), when you manage to get hold of any rare TT b-sides or bootleg live recordings, will you burn me some?? (I still can't abide that gurning Williams man, though...) |
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21 Feb 08 - 09:31 AM (#2268491) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: KeithofChester I still can't abide that gurning Williams man, though... Now even HE is OK so long as Guy Chambers writes the songs for him. Mind you, Neil Tennant did a good job yob on She's Madonna (shame about the video). Robbie is just Seth Lakeman + a few more tatooes and less fiddle after all. |
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21 Feb 08 - 09:40 AM (#2268501) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton "Robbie is just Seth Lakeman + a few more tatooes and less fiddle after all." Keith, you'll be on the F*** Police hit list for saying that! Broadly true, though. |
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21 Feb 08 - 10:42 AM (#2268568) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Green Man Definition of Acoustic Rock Pratchetised. This is a sweet substance usually obtained from menacing vendors on seafronts, it's hard and requires stron jaws. When bitten it says Ouch Gerrof and things like I will tell my mum. (Hence the word acoustic) And being hard it like rock. :) GM |
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22 Feb 08 - 10:09 AM (#2269547) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Peace Nigel, You saying that the public--read audience--doesn't decide what it likes? That you don't 'tailor' sets to get audience approval? Huh, must be nice . . . . |
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22 Feb 08 - 11:37 AM (#2269622) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: GUEST,Nigel Spencer (sans cookie) Bruce, of course the public decides what it likes, but there's a world of difference between a particular, self-selecting portion of the public who wants to listen to, for instance, a Canadian singer songwriter of a certain vintage (!) and the public as a whole. The public as a whole is a bloody awful critic, because it nearly always gives the highest praise to the lowest common denominator, usually after being led by the nose by a tabloid press more interested in the colour of a singer's underpants than the quality of their product... The three bestselling UK albums of 2007 were Amy Winehouse, Leona Lewis and Mika. Fine if you like that sort of thing: personally, I don't, and I'm not gonna change my listening habits to fall into line with mainstream public taste. Not because I'm any better than people who like that sort of music, just because it doesn't float my boat and there is plenty of stuff out there that does. I don't have to worry about pleasing audiences because I'm just a member of the audience. As an audience member I do hope that there will remain enough artists out there who are wilful enough to do their own thing rather than just give us what they or the multinational music & light entertainment industry think we all want... By the way, I should add that I am a complete musical snob and I have far better taste than anybody else. Cheers, Nigel |
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22 Feb 08 - 11:49 AM (#2269628) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Peace Thank you for the clarification. I see what you mean. And I agree. |
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22 Feb 08 - 12:20 PM (#2269648) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton "I'm not gonna change my listening habits to fall into line with mainstream public taste." Forgive me, but who on here was asking you to do that? Have I missed something? |
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22 Feb 08 - 01:53 PM (#2269723) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) No-one, was, Gene. Just sayin'... Cheers Nigel |
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23 Feb 08 - 07:14 AM (#2270213) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: GUEST,Clogger Just as a 'by the way' - I once visited the famous Wakeley Clogs in Yorkshire to watch a demonstration of dance clog-making. There were only two of watching the clog-maker. The other one was Mark Owen from 'Take That' and he was making a purchase. My two children were too star struck to come forward and just stood in the doorway, open-mouthed and pinching themselves. I expressed some surprise that he should want some dance clogs and wondered aloud whether he would wear them on Top of the Pops. He reminded me that he was principally a dancer and that he had grown up in Oldham - a place with strong dance traditions (English and Irish). So there you have it. Some of those Take That dance routines may have been inspired by the English clogging tradition. |
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23 Feb 08 - 07:05 PM (#2270615) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton A few more thoughts ('cos I be a thinking man, though oft times I wish I weren't)... Firstly...of the three acts Nigel mentions in his last post, only Leona can justly be called a manufactured pop idol. Winehouse, whatever you think of her lifestyle, has clearly paid her dues and worked extremely hard not only on her image (which doesn't hurt her sales, I admit), but also on her writing and delivery. Be honest, how far do you have to go back to find another British female vocalist (in any genre) with as unique and instantly recognisable a voice? Mika, similarly, is plainly an extremely accomplished musician (check out his piano work on the recent, pared down version of "Grace Kelly"-that's hot!) AND an incredibly elastic vocalist. Again, how many acts on the folk scene have either his vocal range or charisma? Maybe we need to think long and hard about who on the folk scene is getting the breaks and why, rather than blaming the decline in UK folk's popularity on the media and Joe Bloke...seriously, how many of our leading lights are as original or as interesting (to the general music fan) to listen to as these two? ...secondly, (and far less importantly, I admit!), anybody who still thinks I'm an acoustic rock act should have a look at the Fo'c'sle's gig listings for the year...I'm too lazy to do the hyperlink, but google "southern counties folk federation" and you'll get there. They really aren't in the business of booking any rockers! While you're at it, you might also wish to consider whether the EFDSS (ironically, Ms Crump's employers) are in the business of recognising acoustic rockers...I won their songwriting prize last year, doncha know...(BTW, the EFDSS are a fine organisation doing valuable work and I have absolutely no beef with them- in fact I'm a life member) ...and finally, just to totally undermine my last point, I've spent the greater part of today finishing a song which DOESN'T draw melodically on the tradition, is backed (unlike the bulk of my work) with plectrum-driven guitar work and actually sounds an awful lot more rock-like than just about anything I've previously come up with! Which just goes to show, creativity trumps genre stereotype every time. And that my detractors are 100% right and I should purchase a codpiece, re-grow the handlebar moustache I shaved off just the other month and develop a keen interest in motorbikes and fat bottomed girls...although if the truth be told the latter has ALWAYS been an abiding interest... ROCK ON!!! VROOM, VROOM! |
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23 Feb 08 - 10:53 PM (#2270747) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Suegorgeous Gene Really...how interesting....*flutter, girly giggle* :)) |
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23 Feb 08 - 11:33 PM (#2270757) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: M.Ted So it all comes down to that fRoots magazine, saying "We don't review music from Acoustic Rock Singer Songwriters, we are only interested in Folk Artists' Recordings of Tradition music." Jolly good. |
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24 Feb 08 - 02:18 AM (#2270796) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton Oops, think I inadvertantly revealed more than I intended to there :) M.Ted, no. |
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24 Feb 08 - 02:33 AM (#2270798) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Borchester Echo Quote from fRoots FAQ: As a simple guide, what fRoots covers is music, however ancient or modern, that has some clear roots in a tradition. Neither the instruments or level of technology employed nor an artist's nationality are particularly relevant. For example, neither the act of playing an acoustic instrument or singing in a language other than English have a major significance either way. It ain't how you do it, it's what you do! EFDSS & Joan Crump The EFDSS is in the business of letting out its halls to absolutely anyone who pays the hire fee and is, apparently, not at all choosy about who enters its competitions. And Ms Crump is not an EFDSS employee but a member of its National Council. |
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24 Feb 08 - 04:02 AM (#2270814) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: KeithofChester As to that FAQ, to amend the words of a rather fine set of songwriters. It's only words and words are all I have To take your [music] away I'd love to know how they would have classified New York Mining Disaster 1941 on a blind hearing. IIRC, Martin Carthy does classify it as a folk song. |
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24 Feb 08 - 04:09 AM (#2270816) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) Mika is the new Gilbert O'Sullivan. Amy is the new Shirley Bassey. Won't lose any sleep or shed any tears if I never hear a single song by Gilbert or Shirley again, in either their old or new guise. Not saying they're not good at what they do. Not saying they have no talent. Just saying I have no interest in their careers or music. Or their underpants. And that whole 'in the friggin' Mirror every friggin' day' business seriously turns me off. I don't care who they're sleeping with. I have very eclectic tastes and I check out loads of new stuff, folk and non-folk. I've just never been drawn to and rarely been moved by mainstream pop. If I do hear something I like I'll generally own up. I still miss John Peel. Cheers Nigel |
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24 Feb 08 - 04:16 AM (#2270817) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) Keith, who is taking whose music away? You personally lose nothing as a result of one magazine's editorial policy. No CDs go flying off your shelves and self destruct. No artists are forced to retire. fRoots, meanwhile, gain a little clarity as to their own function. By sharing that, they ensure that the public is not misled as to that function. Few music magazines cover music rooted in tradition to any great extent. Plenty of them - Mojo. Uncut, Q spring to mind - cover contemporary singer songwriters. So no problem, then. Cheers Nigel |
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24 Feb 08 - 04:46 AM (#2270826) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: KeithofChester I think the Bassey/Winehouse comparison is a good one, and you can see that especially in the way Amy is being talked up as the potential singe of the next Bond theme. Ian Anderson's definition of what he does and doesn't want to cover in his magazine matters really to no one other than him and those who choose to buy it. It's just that occasionally certain folk try to impose that definition in other places as a constraint on what should be discussed there too. Anyway, their attempts at trying to tell us what is "rooted in tradition" if it is by one artist whose they like and not if it is more or less the same song by an artist whose they don't can often be most amusing. |
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24 Feb 08 - 04:57 AM (#2270831) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Borchester Echo New York Mining Disaster 1941 I don't know about classing it as a "f*lksong" but it is certainly rooted in a tradition and Mr Carthy does it (and recorded it on Signs Of Life. Mind you, he's also recorded Rave On, Your Baby 'As Gorn Down The Plughole, My Girl, Hen's March To The Middens, The Harry Lime Theme, Heartbreak Hotel, Hong Kong Blues, I Haven't Told Her She Hasn't Told Me, dozens of Leon Rosselson compositions as well as songs by Gilbert O'Sullivan, Sydney Carter, Leon Rosselson, Dave Goulder, Peter Bellamy, Richard Thompson, David Halton, Mike Waterson, Tommy Armstrong, Ewan MacColl & Peggy Seeger, Kay Sutcliffe, Maggie Holland, Les Barker, Berthold Brecht, Bob Dylan, Cyril Tawney, Adam MacNaughtan, Buddy Holly and by himself as well as contributing to recordings by artists as diverse as Julie Felix and Loudon Wainwright. So what the hell IS f*lk, and who bloody cares? As I was saying, it ain't how you do it, it's what you do. |
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24 Feb 08 - 05:08 AM (#2270833) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Borchester Echo Keith seems to be complaining that fRoots doesn't give coverage to the sort of music he himself wants to read about. Fine, buy another mag. At least a stated editorial policy (a conscious decision for matters of space) prevents people from being misled and not finding what they might, for some reason, be expecting to have covered. |
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24 Feb 08 - 05:56 AM (#2270852) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: GUEST As Diane says, EFDSS does not employ me. I am on the National Council, but wasn't at the time of the competition that you won. So I had no allegiance to EFDSS when I saw you sing, and reiterate that, IMHO (which represents no organisation or body except little ol' me), based on my own, PERSONAL definition of what folk song is, I wouldn'ty classify you as a folk singer. I'd call you a singer-songwriter, which in my book is not a pejorative term. Why the distinction? Purely for reasons of clarity. Otherwise, as I have expressed previously and ad nauseam, I think the F word becomes completely meaningless and we who are genuinely interested in, and somewhat protective of, the tradition need to stop using it and look elsewhere for a suitable term. BTW, Gene - and this again is only my personal opinion - you really need to get over yourself. |
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24 Feb 08 - 06:00 AM (#2270854) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: GUEST,Ruth - arrrgh! Guest above is me. |
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24 Feb 08 - 06:03 AM (#2270856) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: KeithofChester Complain? And lose reading all the comedy postings that result from it. Not likely! |
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24 Feb 08 - 11:27 AM (#2270979) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: M.Ted It was actually a droll remark, Gene-- |
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24 Feb 08 - 12:02 PM (#2271008) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: GUEST "...Rather than blaming the decline in UK folk's popularity on the media and Joe Bloke..." to quote from Gene's post a few back. What decline? I'd say the incredibly healthy folk festival scene indicates that far from being in decline, the folk scene is in the ascendency. I went to see Bellowhead last year who filled a packed and sweaty hall and played a blinder. Not sure how that translates as an example of a decline. You don't see to be able to move for ceilidh bands these days yet none of them appear to be sitting at home moping about lack of gigs. I'm not really interested in folk clubs, but I believe some of them are still doing very well. The last time I went to one, there weren't many empty seats. It was the Bothy in Southport though, which has an excellent reputation. The 'folk scene' clearly won't be competing with the multimillion dollar excercise in Disnification that is the mainstream music industry but a)it never did and b) why should it anyway? Cheers Nigel |
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24 Feb 08 - 12:06 PM (#2271011) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: GUEST,Nigerl Spencer (cookieless) Sorry, that was me. And another thing while I'm at it: Gene, from the same post - "Maybe we need to think long and hard about who on the folk scene is getting the breaks and why..." Would you mind clarifying what you mean by this? I don't really understand. Cheers, Nigel |
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24 Feb 08 - 02:09 PM (#2271124) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Gene Burton Nigel, it meant exactly what it means. And no, I assuredly do NOT have myself in mind! (I lack the looks and charisma, and at 27 time, in popular culture terms, is not on my side) With respect, anybody who thinks folk is as popular now as it was say in the '60s is IMO a little deluded. We all saw those folk britannia programmes last year, we all saw the archive footage of clubs packed out with young people listening intently to the folk artists of the time...where has all that gone? The festival scene, ah yes, but that's a bit different. Are those audiences being inspired to sing folk songs themselves as the club audiences back then clearly were, or are they merely passive consumers of the "product" in the same way that Winehouse/Mika fans (a hugely bigger group) are? I would posit the latter. Tha said, we're clearly never going to agree, and I'm too tired to continue arguing about it. Have a pleasant evening... BTW, people, I'm gonna hit the Pembrokeshire Coast path & enjoy my last week of freedom before (finally!) starting full time work again; so this'll be my last contribution on this thread. Thanks for keeping it going so long...:) |
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24 Feb 08 - 03:03 PM (#2271176) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) Still don't understand what you mean. "What it means is what it means" doesn't really clarify things! Not to worry, though. The Pembrokeshire coast sounds a far more enjoyable option. So, yup, let's put this one to bed. As a by-the-by, I try to keep my posts reasonably civil, even when I disagree with people. So... I kind of resent being called "deluded" for expressing an opinion you disagree with. You'll notice that in my posts even when I'm arguing passionately about something I try not to get personal. Again, just sayin'... cheers Nigel |
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25 Feb 08 - 03:18 AM (#2271616) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Dave the Gnome I thought it was like Blackpool Rock, but from the Seaside town of Accoustic... Agree about the usage of the term folk - But isn't it just the same as all the other definitions? The 'new' R&B certainly ain't the stuff that Chuck Berry was doing in the 50's and the Rock produced by Slipknot is a far cry from what I liked in the 60's. Definitions move on. Tastes change. Music evolves. Why categorise any of it? D. |
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25 Feb 08 - 05:24 AM (#2271647) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Folkiedave With respect, anybody who thinks folk is as popular now as it was say in the '60s is IMO a little deluded [.....] or are they merely passive consumers of the "product" in the same way that Winehouse/Mika fans (a hugely bigger group) are? I would posit the latter. Accepting the fact that the protagonist of this is on the Pembrokeshire Coastal Path - and good luck to him, I really think he needs to get out more. There is far more "folk" music far, far more - than there ever was in the "hey day" of folk clubs - and unlike Gene I am old enough to have been at both places. Though we had folk clubs - we rarely had sessions - you could rustle up a few guitar players the odd concertina player, that was it. A few guitar players do not a session make. There were a few festivals, now there are dozens and dozens. A whole variety of instruments abound - let me mention a few from Cheltenham festival; apart from the obvious fiddles guitars melodeons, flutes accordions and bodhrans - I saw at least three hammer dulcimer players, a couple of saxes, a few recorder players, whistles, an ordinary and a bass clarinet. And as a stallholder I never left the Town Hall so goodness knows what there were out in the pub sessions. So far from being passive consumers - folkies are active particpants in music making. Far more than there ever were. Folk clubs are less. That's all. (They seem to be growing incidentally) And there are seem to be hundreds more singer - songwriters than there ever were. |
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25 Feb 08 - 06:29 AM (#2271666) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Richard Bridge The assumption that because the meaning of "rock" changes so does the meaning of "folk" or "RnB" is ill-founded. "Rock" (etc) are stylistic definitions (if they can be called definitions). "Folk" is not. Go and read the 1954 definition again. It depends on source, and on medium of transmission, which are not as subjective as style. If the expressions "folklore" and "folk arts" and "folk dance" have meaning, why not "folk song" and "folk music"? RnB seems more arguable. At its start, it was largely synonymous with "race music" which did depend on an objectively (I'll make that "almost objectively" since framers of race laws the world over have found the defintion of race a bit slippery) definable source. If that was the function of the term, then current usage is incorrect. THe problem with "Acoustic ROck" is two-fold. THere is much current music that is getting called "folk" that in no rational sense can be called "folk" so an attractive label is needed. THe second is that simply by counting examples, one can discern groups of stylistic patterns or formats for known types of folk music. But the adoption of that format does not make music folk music. |
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25 Feb 08 - 11:26 AM (#2271870) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice yet another musical genre arguement that's going round in ever decreasing circles...or as my late mother was wont to say...going nowhere fast Charlotte (playing Flight of the Bumble Bee) |
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25 Feb 08 - 01:46 PM (#2272015) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: PoppaGator drift alert... I agree with Richard Bridge that the current (or perhaps "a" current) usage of the label "RnB" is entirely incorrect. Some current commentators seem to use this term to describe any and all music marketed to the African-American public which is neither rap/hip-hop nor gospel ~ that is, the term is used to classify contemporary ballads, generally heavy with synthesized strings, which is neither rhythmic nor particularly "bluesy." Historical usage of RnB/R&B refers to a genre of music that first appeared just after World War II in the black community. It was around that time that the title for the Billboard chart intended to tracks sales of such records was changed from "Race Records" to "Rhytm and Blues." At the same time, the availability of amplification, and especially of the electric guitar, made it economically possible (if not imperative) that touring bands now consist of a half-dozen or fewer musicians, not a full "big-band" complement of players. All you needed now to entertain a loud barrom crowd was an electric guitar, bass and drums, plus maybe a single saxophone and/or an elctric organ. Examples of the music orignally called R&B include the works of Louis Jordan, Big Joe Turner, the less-widely-known Professor Longhair, Huey Piano Smith, Guitar Slim, etc., etc. This music (surprisingly, to some) found an audience among younger white folk, and was soon renamed "rock and roll" (presumably to eliminate the previous racial identification). Now that "rock and roll," and even the slightly-more-specific "rock," have become very broad categories that include plenty of music that lacks the "roots"/blues intensity of the original stuff, I tend to use the term "R&B" (if only in my own mind, if not publicly) to classify a type of music that I like much more than I like the contemporary black-easy-listening genre that some folks now call "RnB." Incidentally, my own feeling is that "real" R&B, and specifically 1950s-60s New Orleans R&B as recorded in Cosimo Matassa's studio by the likes of Little Richard, Ray Charles, Fats Domino, the aforementioned Professor Longhair and Huey Smith, et al, is the true successor to the original "trad" jazz music born in N.O. ~ at least as validly, if not moreso, than the cerebral music of Miles Davis, John Coltrane and others and their successors. The first jazz music was dance music ~ physical booty-shaking music ~ and players schooled in jazz provided the backbone of those early R&B recordings. "Modern jazz," on the other hand, is intended to be heard in a polite, meditative manner, with the audience sitting still and listening quietly. Good music, certainly, but not the rowdy good-time sound that Buddy Bolden, Kid Ory, Sidney Bechet, and Satchmo originally had in mind... |
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25 Feb 08 - 02:18 PM (#2272056) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Ernest ...and this is probably the reason why contemporary jazz musicians/fans often sneer at New Orleans style jazz... |
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25 Feb 08 - 02:26 PM (#2272065) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: The Sandman who cares? I would rather listen to Harry Cox,Nic Jones,Roscoe Holcomb and Clarence Ashley. http://www.dickmiles.com |
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25 Feb 08 - 03:06 PM (#2272104) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice "who cares? I would rather listen to Harry Cox,Nic Jones,Roscoe Holcomb and Clarence Ashley. and some folk would rather listen to acoustic rock, which is why this thread was probably started in the first place Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool) |
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25 Feb 08 - 06:01 PM (#2272246) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Richard Bridge I think however that we can respect, and treat as historically and culturally significant, not only English Folk music and other Folk music, but also (and without limitation) blues (Delta and Chicago), R&B (correctly so-called) and various forms of jazz. |
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25 Feb 08 - 07:02 PM (#2272281) Subject: RE: What is Acoustic Rock? From: Ruth Archer "who cares? I would rather listen to Harry Cox,Nic Jones,Roscoe Holcomb and Clarence Ashley." right there with you, Captain B. except when I'm listening to stuff that's not. But mostly, right there with you. :) |
