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24 Feb 08 - 06:40 PM (#2271368) Subject: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Rapparee WASHINGTON (AP) -- Ralph Nader on Sunday announced a fresh bid for the White House, criticizing the top contenders as too close to big business and dismissing the possibility that his third-party candidacy could tip the election to Republicans. The longtime consumer advocate is still loathed by many Democrats who accuse him of costing Al Gore the 2000 election. Nader said most people are disenchanted with the Democratic and Republican parties due to a prolonged Iraq war and a shaky economy. He also blamed tax and other corporate-friendly policies under the Bush administration that he said have left many lower- and middle-class people in debt. "You take that framework of people feeling locked out, shut out, marginalized, disrespected," he said. "You go from Iraq, to Palestine/Israel, from Enron to Wall Street, from Katrina to the bungling of the Bush administration, to the complicity of the Democrats in not stopping him on the war, stopping him on the tax cuts." Nader, who turns 74 later this week, announced his candidacy on NBC's "Meet the Press." In a later interview with The Associated Press, he rejected the notion of himself as a spoiler candidate, saying the electorate will not vote for a "pro-war John McCain." He also predicted his campaign would do better than in 2004, when he won just 0.3 percent of the vote as an independent. "This time we're ready for them," said Nader of the Democratic Party lawsuits that kept him off the ballot in some states. Democratic candidates Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton quickly sought to portray Nader's announcement as having little impact. "Obviously, it's not helpful to whomever our Democratic nominee is. But it's a free country," said Clinton, who called Nader's announcement a "passing fancy." Obama dismissed Nader as a perennial presidential campaigner. "He thought that there was no difference between Al Gore and George Bush and eight years later I think people realize that Ralph did not know what he was talking about," Obama added. Republican Mike Huckabee welcomed Nader into the race. "I think it always would probably pull votes away from the Democrats, not the Republicans," the former Arkansas governor said on CNN. Nader said Obama's and Clinton's lukewarm response was not surprising given that both political parties typically treat third-party candidates as "second-class citizens." Nader said he will decide in the coming days whether to run as an independent, Green Party candidate or in some other third party. Pointing a finger at Republicans, he described McCain as a candidate for "perpetual war" and said he welcomed the support of Republican conservatives "who don't like the war in Iraq, who don't like taxpayer dollars wasted, and who don't like the Patriot Act and who treasure their rights of privacy." "If the Democrats can't landslide the Republicans this year, they ought to just wrap up," Nader added. |
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24 Feb 08 - 06:41 PM (#2271370) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Rapparee Bobert, don't you ever say I never gave you nothin'. |
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24 Feb 08 - 07:20 PM (#2271388) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Riginslinger Without a party, how could he do much of anything? |
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24 Feb 08 - 07:33 PM (#2271392) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Bill Hahn//\\ Now is the time for that great Ronald Reagan quote---sounds better with the voice--- "...there you go again". Nader insists on screwing things up. Bill Hahn |
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24 Feb 08 - 07:38 PM (#2271398) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: GUEST,Guest How sad everyone can only imagine that the media driven horse race, and not the process of airing views on issues, as the point of our increasingly undemocratic voting process. He isn't in this to win the horse race. He is in it to give voice to the voiceless, to have a platform for bringing important issues to the forefront that are now locked out and being ignored. He is picking up the torch left lying in the road by Kucinich and Edwards. He is running for all kinds of reasons, but not to win the horse race. For the love of god, this democracy is about far more than the bloody race and winner take all. |
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24 Feb 08 - 07:49 PM (#2271403) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Mrrzy Somebody put him out of our misery! |
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24 Feb 08 - 07:54 PM (#2271406) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Bill D Well, we are all for **NOBLE CAUSES**, but some of us want to be sure we do NOT get 4 more years of Republican rule...and we think Nader might get just enough votes somewhere to torpedo that. If he was really serious, he'd have been in the fray before now. |
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24 Feb 08 - 08:03 PM (#2271416) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: GUEST,Guest Nader won't be the reason why you have four more years of Republican rule. All of you, and the Democratic candidate you keep voting for blindly, will be to blame. The reason why independent and third party candidates don't step into the fray before now is because the process at this point is the Democratic and Republican party processes. Not the 3rd party process or independent candidate process. But it is clear that Mudcatters know precious little about the actual mechanics of the US electoral system. For instance, many of them think that the two major parties should be able to shut out everyone else, in order to insure their major party candidates will win. Not very democratic, but clearly that is what everyone who says Nader shouldn't be running truly believes. That Nader shouldn't be allowed into the democratic process, because voters might actually vote for him. |
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24 Feb 08 - 08:09 PM (#2271420) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Sorcha I'm quite sure YOU have it all sussed out, GiGi....why don't YOU run? I'm sure we'd all vote for you in a heartbeat. |
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24 Feb 08 - 08:10 PM (#2271422) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Don Firth ". . . it is clear that Mudcatters know precious little about the actual mechanics of the US electoral system." That is one of your steamier piles of bovine excrement, GiGi. Don Firth |
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24 Feb 08 - 08:18 PM (#2271428) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: GUEST,Guest It is nearly impossible to believe otherwise, when the majority of posts to the Nader thread are people claiming Nader shouldn't run. Why shouldn't he run? According to them, because he will actually get people to vote for him. How many? Hard to say. In 2000, according to the Electoral College results, 2,858,843 votes. In 2004, far less--240,896. Why do Anybody But the Republicans voters feel that we need less competition in our electoral system? You tell me Don. It is, after all, your opinion. |
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24 Feb 08 - 08:20 PM (#2271431) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Bill D "All of you, and the Democratic candidate you keep voting for blindly, will be to blame." Oh, SURE! We'll all slpit our votes beteen Nader, Kucinich, Ron Paul, Mike Gravel, Tom Vilsack, Al Sharpton, Ross Perot....and maybe Harold Stassen! |
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24 Feb 08 - 08:21 PM (#2271432) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Sorcha OK...YOU run! THIS year!!!! FILE NOW. Git 'er done, bud. After all, YOU can fix US! |
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24 Feb 08 - 08:22 PM (#2271433) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: GUEST,Guest Well, if that is what happens, that is what happens. I see it Obama's way though. If you are one of the two major party candidates, you should be able to win on your own merits, and not live in mortal fear and combat mode over a couple of percentage points. Hmmmm? |
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24 Feb 08 - 08:24 PM (#2271435) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Rapparee Buck, buck, buck...buckaw! |
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24 Feb 08 - 08:31 PM (#2271440) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Sorcha Looks like GiGi just isn't up for it. Like a catfish, perhaps. |
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24 Feb 08 - 08:33 PM (#2271442) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: GUEST,Guest Nader said he needs $10 million to run a campaign through November. Obama, otoh, is currently raising $50 million per month. Perhaps you'd like to dine on that your sweet little self, Miss Sorcha. |
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24 Feb 08 - 08:39 PM (#2271450) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Sorcha Look, I'M not the one ranting about nobody doing it MY Way! YOU are! As you said, you don't need the money to run...just go DO it! I mean, jeeze, you gots a computer, you can print mailers, get a free mailer stamp just like they do..., get some bucks from the Feds....it's all YOUR idea here! |
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24 Feb 08 - 08:42 PM (#2271453) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: GUEST,Guest I'm not ranting about anything like that Sorcha. You just are looking for an argument with me, is all. Talk about silly seasons in politics...you do take the cake today. |
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24 Feb 08 - 08:44 PM (#2271454) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Don Firth GiGi, read THIS. While you're sitting in front of your computer being snotty to people who don't agree with you, I'm out there, working with a number of dedicated people who are striving to put a little starch into the Democrats. Don Firth |
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24 Feb 08 - 08:48 PM (#2271463) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: GUEST,Guest OK Don, I promise to read it, but later. It's from 2003. |
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24 Feb 08 - 08:58 PM (#2271476) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Sorcha LOL...so now I have an Agenda do I? You amuse us. |
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24 Feb 08 - 08:58 PM (#2271477) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Rapparee I posted this for Bobert, not you, Gigi. |
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24 Feb 08 - 09:03 PM (#2271482) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Charley Noble Let's simmer down just a little. As Gigi has mentioned (although not in quite these words)Nader doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of harvesting many votes this time, certainly less than in 2004, and way less than in 2000 (when I probably did vote for him after checking to make sure Gore didn't need my vote to win in Maine). Nader might be able to raise a few important issues that are being ducked by the Democratic contenders who would prefer to debate health care or NAFTA, or even the Iraq War. That's not a bad thing if it were to happen, and if McKain were also proked to respond. I doubt that it will happen, not so much because I'm grown cynical, but I have learned to follow races rather closely, almost as if they were a competitive sport. That's one of the byproducts of having been a staff person in a major failed U.S. Senate campaign. It's hard for me to just go with the flow. I need to step back periodically and see where the flows going, and where it's not. Now Gigi probably doesn't appreciate me standing up for her. She may even prefer just blowing everyone away, including me. But she's a player, and a good one. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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24 Feb 08 - 09:06 PM (#2271485) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: GUEST,Guest Last time I checked Rapaire, it is still a free country, and the Mudcat mods haven't censored me yet today. Further, I am not holding Bobert hostage with a gun to his head, telling him I'm hijacking the thread you dedicated to him. |
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24 Feb 08 - 09:08 PM (#2271488) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Don Firth Later might be too late, GiGi. The year in which Hartmann wrote it doesn't alter it's relevance to what's going on right now. In fact, it's all the more timely. Don Firth |
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24 Feb 08 - 09:11 PM (#2271490) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Peace OK. One question: Who are his corporate backers? |
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24 Feb 08 - 09:12 PM (#2271491) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: GUEST,Guest To you it may well be. To me it is yesteryear's opinion du jour, I didn't agree with the idea that electoral politics can reform government, and I don't agree with the idea now. True systemic governmental change just doesn't come from within the system. Not even in Velvet Revolutions. |
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24 Feb 08 - 09:13 PM (#2271492) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: GUEST,Guest Who are Nader's corporate backers? What's yer punchline? |
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24 Feb 08 - 09:18 PM (#2271495) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Peace I had to ask. |
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24 Feb 08 - 09:21 PM (#2271497) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: GUEST,Guest "When you get into running for your third or fourth time, I don't think people will pay that much attention to it, and I wouldn't see it having any effect on the race," Virginia Democratic Gov. Tim Kaine said on "Fox News Sunday." Yeah, that's what they said about Ronald Reagan too, when he got into his third presidential race in 1980. I'm just sayin'. |
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24 Feb 08 - 09:25 PM (#2271500) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Rapparee Yes, Gigi. As Mao said, "Power comes from the barrel of a rifle." I have rifles (and shotguns, and pistols), therefore I am powerful. You do not, so you don't matter unless you agree with me. THAT'S revolution. |
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24 Feb 08 - 09:27 PM (#2271503) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Sorcha HEY! I have GUNS too! Can I be Vice Prez? Or at least in charge of vice? guns...got lotsa guns.....bullets too! |
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24 Feb 08 - 09:28 PM (#2271504) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Peace Guns don't matter. Bullets matter. |
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24 Feb 08 - 09:30 PM (#2271506) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Sorcha Gotz bulletz! Lemme help! Inside the 7 yard line, I'z deadly! LOL |
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24 Feb 08 - 09:34 PM (#2271508) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: GUEST,Guest Mao We Can! |
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24 Feb 08 - 09:34 PM (#2271510) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Peace . . . and beer. Beer matters, too. Cold beer, warm beer, fizzy beer, smooth beer, bottled beer, draft beer. I could go on, but anchovies also matter. |
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24 Feb 08 - 09:37 PM (#2271516) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Don Firth Whether you agree or not, GiGi, doesn't mean that Hartmann wasn't right then and is still right now. I know quite a few people who agree with him, and the number is growing. Don Firth |
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24 Feb 08 - 09:39 PM (#2271517) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: GUEST,Guest Bullets don't matter. Butter sculpture matters. Especially during State Fair season. I can't wait to see a butter bust of Bush (I'm sure we'll have several entered into the competition this year, in honor of the Repub convention). |
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24 Feb 08 - 09:41 PM (#2271518) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Peace Well, the fat content should be close! |
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24 Feb 08 - 09:53 PM (#2271532) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Rapparee Only between the ears, Peace. |
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24 Feb 08 - 09:54 PM (#2271533) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Rapparee Sorch, you can be head of Sekrit Poo-lease. |
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24 Feb 08 - 11:22 PM (#2271558) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Riginslinger "Yeah, that's what they said about Ronald Reagan too, when he got into his third presidential race in 1980..." But he was the Republican nominee. Nader was only a threat when he was endorsed by the Green Party, and then only as a spoiler. Now, I don't think he even qualifies as a spoiler. |
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25 Feb 08 - 12:19 AM (#2271581) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Sorcha Oh Gee, Rap...THANKS! I think......lol. I guess I just wasn't a contendah, eh? In spite of bullets....and reloading equipment too. Hey, I can even COOK! Do Seekrit PooLeace need food? |
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25 Feb 08 - 12:44 AM (#2271589) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: The Fooles Troupe And once again those who live outside the USA see why a first past the post system has its flaws compared to a preferential voting system... :-) |
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25 Feb 08 - 10:42 AM (#2271827) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: irishenglish I would not vote for Nader because he is 73 years old, which is too old I believe. I would not vote for Nader because admirable (actually astounding) as his legislation efforts have been over the last 40 plus years, I am very concerned about his lack of foreign policy experience. I would not vote for Nader because of the sharp drop off he experienced between the 2000 and 2004 campaigns, ad much as 80% one pundit wrote. I absolutely admire everything he has done, a true Goliath-but as President, I firmly believe that is not his strong suit. |
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25 Feb 08 - 10:56 AM (#2271841) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Peace I would not vote for Nader because I am not an American. |
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25 Feb 08 - 06:09 PM (#2272252) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: DougR Go Ralph! DougR |
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25 Feb 08 - 06:43 PM (#2272268) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Bobert Agree with ya' there, Dougie... B~ |
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25 Feb 08 - 07:09 PM (#2272285) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Greg B Nader's getting down to being near comic relief, like Pat Paulsen was in an earlier time. And I don't buy that he's giving voice to 'the meek.' I think he's giving voice to Ralph Nader. The man's ego has surpassed his contributions. As to guns and Vice Presidents, I don't know why it continues to be such a joke. So he shot his hunting buddy in the face. Before he did that, Bill Clinton shot Monica Lewinski in the face. |
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26 Feb 08 - 12:26 AM (#2272480) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: mrdux . . . the major difference being that Monica didn't seem to mind. |
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26 Feb 08 - 09:08 AM (#2272666) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: GUEST,Guest This is from today's Baltimore Sun, and encapsulates the Nader Team pretty well: Ralph Nader: It's not always about winning by Mark Silva For Ralph Nader, who won some crusades against corporate America as a consumer advocate, the political campaign is not always about winning. He says he is running against "the real political bigotry'' of the two major parties that have "locked up the system.'' He says he is saying things that no one else is. And his campaign opens that door to the media that enables his words to walk through. Nader – who collected 2.7 percent of the vote when he ran for president in 2000 and 0.3 percent when he ran in 2004 – says he will run again this year as an independent candidate. But it's clear, from interviews with Nader since his announcement on NBC's Meet the Press on Sunday, that it's the candidacy that counts for him – and the ideas he espouses in his pursuit of a fractional share of the vote. Candidacies like that of Norman Thomas, the Socialist. It is "important…to remember our history,'' Nader said in an interview aired by Sirius Radio on Monday. "Almost everything we like in politics started with a small party. Norman Thomas, the Socialist Party – he ran for president five times, he put forth social security, unemployment compensation, the progressive income tax, labor standards.'' Nader appeared on Ron Silver's daily call-in talk show on Indie Talk Channel 110, which bills itself as "an uncensored forum for independent thought and opinion.'' Nader's contention is that too much of his own thoughts are missing from the political campaign underway – and we've heard from no shortage of voters this week who agree with that, and support his notion that the two major parties leave something unanswered in American politics. So Nader runs again – not to win, but to voice. The leading candidates are "not talking about the bloated wasteful military budget…which takes money away from repairing the public services in the country – the schools, the clinics, the highways, bridges, drinking water systems, sewage treatment systems that would create a lot of good jobs that could not be exported to places like China,'' Nader said Monday on Silver's show on Sirius. "Obama, Hillary Clinton and McCain have not come out against nuclear power,'' Nader said. "Congress just recently put in $19 billion of loan guarantees for nuclear power plants. This is an industry that can not finance its nuclear power plants privately without having a guarantee from Uncle Sam, which indicates its lack of economic viability.'' Silver, saying he for one is "not afraid of more ideas,'' said "it's very curious that this country, which likes to pat itself on the back for being such a free marketplace of ideas, is trying to shut people down like Ralph Nader and other people making ballot access very difficult etc.'' "I couldn't have put it better,'' Nader said. "It's real political bigotry by the two major parties who have locked up the system with these ballot access obstructions against more voices and choices and giving voters a chance to have their free choice of candidates. "The best ideas in American history have come from small parties: anti-slavery parties, women's right to vote, the labor farmer progressive parties in the 19th Century,'' he said. "They never won a national election, but aren't we glad they were there? And aren't we glad that some voters didn't go for the least worst between the Whigs and the Democrats?'' His vision of the challenge ahead: "It's basically to free the free market from the corporate destruction of capitalism. These giant corporations violate the rules of capitalism, which is: if you own it, you should control it. And millions of investors own these corporations, they're shut out, they can't do anything about management no matter how crooked or incompetent or bungling they are. "The second rule of capitalism is: If you're about to fail, you have the freedom to fail. That's what small businesses do… go bankrupt, but big business goes to Washington, like Citibank and all these other companies that go in a variety of ways to be bailed out by the U.S. tax payer via Uncle Sam. So, that's why I think we have to make a distinction between giant corporations and small business….giant corporations use political power to disadvantage smaller competitors…'' Nader, who ran as the Green Party candidate in 2000 and an independent in 2004, said he probably will align with no party, but run as an independent. He was asked his stance on foreign policy. "Well obviously when we're attacked…and when there's an imminent attack…say like a missile or something, we have to defend ourselves,'' he said. "But militarizing foreign policy from the get go, brute force diplomacy… which is a contradiction in terms that Bush has engaged in, just creates more enemies, more people intent on sabotage...it's endangering our national security. "I really agreed with Bill Richardson on the need for muscular diplomacy, the need to foresee and forestall, the need to become a humanitarian superpower which we can be so good at…dealing with infectious diseases and environmental clean-up.'' Posted by Mark Silva on February 26, 2008 7:33 AM | Permalink |
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26 Feb 08 - 05:20 PM (#2273057) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: DougR I emailed Ralph a note of encouragement. Told him that there is a Folk Music website populated, primarily, by Nader thinking souls. Suggested that he tune in to the website and solicit some donations. Haven't heard back from him yet. I didn't provide a blue clicky nor did I tell him the name of the website. Ralph should do some digging of his own. I also suggested that if he needed a point man in Virginia, Bobert would be his man! DougR |
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27 Feb 08 - 10:02 AM (#2273667) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Greg F. puerile adj 1: juvenile 2: childish, silly < - remarks> puerilismn:childish behavior esp. as a symptom of mental disorder. |
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27 Feb 08 - 11:37 AM (#2273753) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Peace "I emailed Ralph a note of encouragement. Told him that there is a Folk Music website populated, primarily, by Nader thinking souls." I too e-mailed Ralph and told him you'd send a thousand dollars. Nice of you, Doug. (Look at the sky and wear your hard hat.) |
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27 Feb 08 - 05:00 PM (#2274080) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: DougR Aw shucks. Now you two done gone and hurt my feelings. SOB! DougR |
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27 Feb 08 - 06:11 PM (#2274148) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Bobert Ralph and I go way back, Dougie... I'm on his mailer list and will send him a few bucks... I still have a few bumber stickers from last time, too... B~ |
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27 Feb 08 - 08:39 PM (#2274294) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Don Firth "And his campaign opens that door to the media that enables his words to walk through." Aye, there's the rub! Most of what Ralph Nader says I agree with wholeheartedly. He and Dennis Kucinich are not that far apart. And look what the media—yes, the media (but certainly not disapproved of by the Democratic Party)—did to Kucinich. One may hear Nader's message IF one knows where to listen for it or which web sites to go to. But I have yet to hear one peep about anything Nader says—or, for that matter, what Kucinich was saying—in the mass media. One need not confine one's efforts to just one area of endeavor. Anything that would get what Kucinich and Nader are advocating out before the voters is something that I support. But that doesn't stop me from working with organizations like the Backbone Campaign, an organization that is implementing Thom Hartmann's ideas, going to Democratic Party meetings, backing people into corners, and kicking the occasional butt. Their drumbeat in the ears of the Democrats is a statement made by Harry S. Truman a few decades back: "Given a choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, the people will vote for the real Republican every the time."Don Firth P. S. By the way, GiGi, have you notice that Ron Silver has recently decided that he is a conservative? Why, I wonder, is he interested in giving Ralph Nader a voice, other than to try to split the liberal vote? P. S. S. Hell, Doug R. sees that clearly. |
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28 Feb 08 - 12:12 AM (#2274421) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Lepus Rex Yeah, I'm not reading the whole thing. Things to do. Glad Nader's running, though. Yanno, so I can vote for him. You friggin' sell outs. :) Anyways, here's my favourite article on Nader so far: ---------------------------------------------------------- HOPE YOU CAN'T VOTE FOR By Ted Rall Ralph Nader Appeals to Disenfranchised Liberals NEW YORK--"What," editorializes U.S. News & World Report, "does Ralph Nader bring to the political dialogue this year? Answer: nothing except for his own inflated ego." Dimestore psychoanalysis was the standard reaction to Nader's third third-party presidential bid. "An ego-driven spoiler," the Des Moines Register called him. "He seems to have a pretty high opinion of his own work," jabbed Barack Obama. You see, other politicians who seek the presidency are like the Dalai Lama, humble and self-effacing. Obama and Hillary? Two sweeties. Not an ounce of ego between them. Even our former colonial masters put in their two pence. Nader's "egotism and cult of left-wing purity has been an utter disaster for the values he affects to espouse," railed the UK Independent. Nader's values would fare better, apparently, were he to shut up and keep them to himself. Is Ralph really a spoiler? To answer "yes," you have to buy three assumptions: First, that the two-party system is written in stone. But it's not. There's nothing in the Constitution about two parties, or about parties at all. (The Founding Fathers were dismayed when parties emerged around 1800.) Besides, the Democratic-Republican stranglehold ill serves a diverse population of 300 million. Because parliamentary democracies offer voters a wide selection of parties representing almost every conceivable ideology, voter turnout in Europe typically exceeds 80 percent. In the U.S., most registered voters stay home. Assumption two: voters ought to vote strategically, i.e., for the lesser of two evils. Even for those who accept this curiously alienating concept, however, evil often comes in pairs. Most citizens think the U.S. has lost more than it has gained under NAFTA; neither Obama nor McCain want to repeal it. Most people want the U.S. out of Iraq; both men have repeatedly voted to prolong the war. How shall anti-NAFTA, antiwar voters divine which will prove least anathematic as president? Should they resort to a ouija board? The third leg of the Nader=Spoiler tripod relies on a belief that opinions espoused by a small minority of a population are inherently worthless. But, as anyone who has successfully gambled on a business can attest, today's fringe thinking becomes tomorrow's conventional wisdom. After 9/11, nine percent of Americans thought George W. Bush was a lousy president. Seventy-two percent feel that way now. America's greatest political achievements--emancipation, women's suffrage, the 40-hour work week--were first espoused by tiny voting blocs led by figures on the political fringe. But that's not why Ralph says he's running. His platform seeks to promote causes that are popular with an overwhelming majority of American voters, yet have been sidelined by the two major parties and their allies in the media. Fifty-five percent of Americans believe that Bush deserves to be impeached, according to a November 2007 American Research Center poll. (Considering Iraq, Guantánamo, domestic surveillance and torture alone, it's surprising the number isn't higher.) But "impeachment is off the table," Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi announced as the Democrats recaptured Congress in 2006, and they haven't mentioned it since. America's pro-impeachment majority obviously can't expect Republicans to prosecute their own guy. Aside from most voters, only Ralph Nader wants impeachment proceedings against the "criminal recidivist regime of George Bush and Dick Cheney." So who are the fringe weirdoes: the out-of-touch media elite, or the guy who agrees with most of the people? The two remaining major Democratic presidential contenders think that repeatedly name-checking John Edwards is sufficient to draw votes from his liberal Democratic supporters. But liberals "don't like Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama--for them, he sold out even before he was bought in," the Independent mocks. Only Nader offers "left-wing purity." And what's wrong with that? While McCain, Obama and Clinton repeatedly vote for funding the Iraq War, at the same time calling for expanding the war against Afghanistan--a doomed effort that was lost years ago--Nader wants to slash defense spending, the number-one cause of our skyrocketing federal deficit. Americans favor "socialized medicine" (43 to 38 percent, says the February 14th Harris poll); only Nader agrees with them. Nader would repeal the Taft-Hartley Act, which destroyed labor unions; the other candidates haven't said squat about the single biggest reason real wages are shrinking. What's wrong with that, say Democratic Party officials, is that Nader's first run attracted 2.7 percent of the vote in 2000. Nader drew support from liberals who didn't think Al Gore had enough "left-wing purity." "This time I hope it doesn't hurt anyone," said Hillary. Nader "prevented Al Gore from being the 'greenest' president we could have had." Maybe the Dems and their pundit pals ought to get their story straight. If Nader's "left-wing purity" is so fringe and wacky, how can he hurt them? ---------------------------------------------------------- ---Will |
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28 Feb 08 - 12:31 AM (#2274426) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: GUEST,TIA Okay, I admit, I have not read all the posts here. Because, I got stuck at this, and my head nearly exploded... "many of them think that the two major parties *should* be able to shut out everyone else, in order to insure their major party candidates will win" The emphasis on "should" is mine, and the statement is utter horse crap. Substitute "are currently" for "should", and you turn weasely, straw man, Bush-aiding, pseudo-idealism into reality. Go ahead Nader people. Cling to your idealistic claptrap (which, BTW, I support), and ignore the reality of what actually happened in 2000, and what you might cause in 2008. Hide behind your fantasies (which, BTW, I support -- and work for daily -- 100%), and ignore the real world. Parents and other grown-ups know the difference between what SHOULD be, and what CAN be. (Sorry, this is not shouting, honestly, I just don't know html or whatever it takes to italicize). I work my ass off for what SHOULD be, but am not willing to sacrifice that ass due to what, realistically, at this point in history, CAN be. Nader Voters: Please grow up. And stop treating those of us who oppose a Nader candidacy as enemies. We are on the same team, but we have (in our humble opinions) realistic goals. Yours are laudable, but accomplish exactly the opposite of what we, and you, want. I would love to fly, but will not step off the parapet of the umbrella factory. But don't you dare tell me that you are the only one who craves wings. Rant over. Peace. |
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28 Feb 08 - 12:50 AM (#2274431) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: TIA Oops, substitue "are currently" for "should be". Grammar counts. |
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28 Feb 08 - 07:15 AM (#2274591) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: GUEST,Guest I think it quite positive that Ralph Nader can draw from both the right and the left, conservative and liberal, red and blue, Democrat and Republican, in his quest to break the hold of tyranny over this country the duopoly has created. You see, political organizers of the non-partisan stripe know that in order to actually accomplish something like getting the government to change the way it conducts itself, or get big business to change it's way of doing business--you have to be able to bring together people of all sorts of political philosophies and ideologies. That's why neither Republicans or Democrats are able to do much these days. It's a stalemate. The system is deadlocked. More and more voters are being locked out, sure. But as Nader points out--the best candidates are locked out too. When 6 Republicans voted to override the Republican MN governor this week to finally pass a transportation bill (after years of him refusing to sign or vetoing it), the governor had them stripped of their party leadership positions. I am proud of those Republican legislators for standing up to those 'no new taxes' bullies, and finally having the courage of their convictions so they can say they voted their conscience, instead of their partisanship. You see, there is hope for us all when even just a few people stand up and speak truth to power. It may lose those Republicans their seats this fall--everyone of them is up for re-election--but they did the right thing. Most of our state legislators aren't career politicians in the national sense (most notable exception is our governor, who has eyes on the White House). They are public servants in the traditional sense. I was very proud of those Republicans for their courage, ang for putting the good of the people and the state before the partisan interests of their club. Very proud. Now, there are folks who will always say that voting for Nader goes against our ideals and values as 'liberals'. My first answer is always 'don't assume I'm a liberal'. The second is: 'who the hell do you think you are telling me how to vote?' Yeah, it should be a free country in that regard. I've always voted for the candidates who earn my vote, not that demand my allegiance to their party. It is getting to the point where the Democrats are gonna start demanding we sign loyalty oaths, fer chrissake. |
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28 Feb 08 - 03:06 PM (#2275039) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: DougR GUEST, guest: I wouldn't count on Ralphie getting many Republican votes. Mebbe some Democrats though... DougR |
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28 Feb 08 - 06:38 PM (#2275251) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Little Hawk If you ever woke up out of your political dream world, Doug, you wouldn't vote ever again for either a Republican or a Democrat. They are both morally and ethically bankrupt parties, and they have betrayed your constitutional heritage time and time again. They're a joke in the rest of the world, although the Republicans are a bigger joke at this point. That's mainly because the Democrats haven't been in power for the last 8 years. |
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28 Feb 08 - 07:40 PM (#2275290) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: GUEST,Guest Doug, in 2000, roughly 25% of the voters who went for Nader self-identified themselves as Republicans in exit polls. |
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28 Feb 08 - 11:58 PM (#2275402) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: mrdux That's certainly one way of looking at the statistics, and not inaccurate (although I came up with a figure closer to 20%). On the other hand, another way to look at them, according to the CNN 2000 Exit Polls, is that only 1% of the voters who identified themselves as Republicans said they voted for Nader, compared with 2% of those who said they were Democrats and 6% of the independents. In light of which, Doug's observation -- "I wouldn't count on Ralphie getting many Republican votes" -- seems pretty accurate: 1% isn't many. |
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29 Feb 08 - 08:29 AM (#2275615) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: GUEST,Guest Nor is 2% many. Although, according to my stellar math calculations, I see that according to your formula, we can determine that twice as many Democrats as Republicans voted for him. And if Nader hadn't been in the race, that 1% of Republican voters would have gone to Bush, along with at least a few of those indies, which means Bush would have legitimately defeated Gore in 2000! Whoopee! Don't ya love doin' the numbers! The point is this. I am neither a Democrat or a Republican, and I don't owe my vote to the Democratic party just because they say I do. Homey don't play dat tune. |
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29 Feb 08 - 08:55 AM (#2275642) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Bobert The numbers for 2000 are history... The Dems ***need*** Nader this time around... He will keep the most progressive issues, especially corporatism, globalization and the utter unfairness of our tax system that is so squewed toward the wealthy... This won't hurt Obama... It will help Obama... That is, if Obama gets the nod... It won't help John McCain onhe bit because John McCain is a corporatist stooge... B~ |
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29 Feb 08 - 04:15 PM (#2276044) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: Don Firth But the 2% of Dems who voted for Nader probably would have voted for Gore, so. . . . If you're going to do statistics, GiGi, you really need to look at all the numbers, not just pick the ones you think will prove your point. Don Firth |
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01 Mar 08 - 09:44 AM (#2276497) Subject: RE: BS: Nader Enters Presidential Race From: GUEST,Guest Which is what the '2000 was Nader's fault' sore losers (like you, for instance Don) do all the time. You cherry pick some numbers (like the 2%, for instance Don), and ignore the others--like 1% Repubs, 6% indies--it is the factoring in of the indie numbers you ALWAYS ignore, which is just another way of you ignoring the reality that those of us who are independent can swing an election. You don't like that fact, do you Don? Well, tough. I, and one third of my state's voters aren't beholden to your brand name politics that are destroying our nation and our world. You just hate the fact that you can't bully us into voting YOUR way. |