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04 Mar 08 - 02:52 PM (#2279497) Subject: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: PoppaGator Thanks to the lunar calendar's creation of a very early Easter this year, March 17 falls on Monday of Holy Week, according to the liturgical calendar of the Roman Catholic Church and most other Western Christian churches. From this morning's New Orleans Times-Picayune: Holy Week elbows out St. Joseph activities St. Patrick parade to squeak in early By Bruce Nolan This year's memorably early Easter, which already has produced a memorably early Mardi Gras, will have one more curious effect before passing into history: The arrival of the earliest Holy Week in decades has rescheduled St. Joseph's Day festivities. In addition, the Catholic church is limiting celebrations of the feast of St. Patrick, the patron saint of Ireland, and moving them out of Holy Week. That will have little public effect, however: Organizers of two major St. Patrick's Day parades in New Orleans and Metairie said they will march as scheduled on March 15 and March 16. Both saints hold the affection of old immigrant groups, who launch parades or other cultural celebrations in major American cities on or around each St. Patrick's Day, March 17, and St. Joseph's Day, March 19. But this year, for the first time since 1940, those feasts fall during Holy Week. The Associated Press reported that in cities such as Savannah, Milwaukee and Philadelphia, local Catholic bishops have asked civic organizations to move big cultural celebrations out of Holy Week. For many Christians, the week is a solemn period of preparation for commemoration of the climactic events of Jesus Christ's execution on Good Friday and his resurrection on Easter. The Catholic church cancels its internal celebration of all saints' feasts when they fall in that week. Sarah Comiskey, spokeswoman for the Archdiocese of New Orleans, said this year the church has moved the worldwide observance of the feast of St. Joseph to Saturday, March 15, the last day before the start of Holy Week. Archbishop Alfred Hughes has asked local Catholic parishes, schools or lay groups that normally display food-laden St. Joseph's altars on his feast day to advance their work by a few days, she said. In most cases, such altars will be on display between Saturday and March 15, she said. In addition, the Italian-American Marching Club's 38th annual French Quarter parade has been moved up to Saturday evening, parade Chairman Tony Russo said. Meanwhile, Comiskey said the Catholic church has canceled this year's feast of St. Patrick, but parishes or other institutions named after him may celebrate his feast on Friday, March 14th. In New Orleans, the Irish Channel St. Patrick's Day club will mount its big parade the Saturday before the feast, as usual -- outside any conflict with Holy Week, said Dick Burke, a member. The St. Patrick Parade Committee of Jefferson will march in Metairie on March 16, organizer John Marchese said. That's Palm Sunday, the first day of Holy Week, but Comiskey said Hughes did not ask private organizations not affiliated with the church to move their parades or other celebrations. While Italian-American communities in most US cities celebrate their national heritage in October, on Columbus Day, New Orleanians of Italian descent (the vast majority of whose ancestors came from Sicily) have always observed the Sicilian tradition of honoring St. Joseph as their patron saint. This year's confluence of St. Joe's/St. Pat's with Holy Week is having a greater impact upon the Italian-American celebrations in New Orleans than the Irish-American party. Elsewhere in America and the world, St. Joseph's Day is less of an issue, but St. Patrick's Day is a big deal throughout the Irish Diaspora ~ perhaps moreso among those whose forbearers left Ireland than in the Auld Sod itself. Anyone out there experiencing any St. Paddy's scheduling difficulties thanks to this year's unusual conflict with Holy Week? I can't imagine that very many Irish-theme bars and pubs would follow the Church's instructions to "cancel this year's feast" on Monday the 17th ~ but they might well be OK with "adding" a celebration (or actually starting a long weekend of partying) on the alternate date of Friday the 14th. PS ~ I'll be out on the streets parading with the Irish Channel St. Atrick's Day Marching Club that Saturday. For a peek at my first appearance in the parade back in '01, see Member Photos. |
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04 Mar 08 - 04:14 PM (#2279574) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: Rapparee Even though I am a product of a foine, upstanding Catholic education, from me years in kindergarten through me years in college; even though me wife once worked at Notre Dame (home of the Fightin' Oirish); even though I've and talked with Bishops personally, sure and I don't think I'll be lettin' me Church get in the way of me religion. |
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04 Mar 08 - 04:20 PM (#2279579) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: gnu The only thing sillier would be green beer. |
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05 Mar 08 - 02:32 AM (#2279916) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: mg This is really bad. We always got St. Patrick's Day excused for Lent..you could do whatever you gave up and eat meat on Friday etc. They are dead dead wrong on this but the Catholic church seems to be getting dumber and dumber. mg |
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05 Mar 08 - 03:25 AM (#2279928) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: Joe Offer I know it's hard for some people to understand, but Jesus Christ does trump St. Patrick, and Holy Week is one of the most sacred times of the church year. Back before Vatican Council II, they wouldn't have moved St. Patrick's Day - they would have cancelled it outright. My Irish pastor is quite happy about the change. He gave up booze for Lent - except on St. Patrick's Day. Now he gets to break his abstinence a few days early. The parish will be happy about it too - he's been a bit ornery duing Lent. -Joe- |
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05 Mar 08 - 10:08 AM (#2280141) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: GUEST,leeneia What they oughta do is move St Patrick's Day to some date with nicer weather. Same for Halloween. There are plenty of out-of-work artists and scholars who could fake the necessary ancient documents for a small honorarium. (Wouldn't it be lovely if the little kids could trick-or-treat on September 30th rather than October 31st?) |
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05 Mar 08 - 11:02 AM (#2280213) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: PoppaGator Joe's right: Lent is one thing ~ readily ignored when in conflict with St. Patrick's Day, as is normally the case ~ but the final week of Lent, Holy Week, is something else altogether, something to be taken much more seriously. Of course, in the US at least, not all celebrants of St. Patrick's Day are especially devout Christians. In the US, most are probably at least nominally Catholic, but I would wager that huge numbers are of the "fallen-away" persuasion. Incidentally: I've seen and heard claims that more US citizens of Irish descent are Protestant than Catholic, which at first I found very hard to believe. But I've figured out a likely explanation: very many pre-Revolutionary American settlers, especially among the indentured servants shipped to Georgia and the Carolinas, were "Scotch-Irish" Ulster Protestants. These folks had already been multiplying, assimilating, and intermarrying with Anglo-Saxons and others for several generations before the potato famines propted large numbers of Gaelic (Catholic) Irish to start moving to the States. This more recent immigrant group has always been more attached to their homeland, staying in touch with relatives who stayed behind and in many cases sending money back to Ireland to bring more family members across the ocean, etc. These folks, who identify as "Irish" much more strongly than the decendants of those Ulstermen who had been brought here forcibly a century or more earlier, are the constituency for St. Patrick's Day celebrations. |
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05 Mar 08 - 11:32 AM (#2280236) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: SINSULL No change in the NYC parade - March 17 at 10AM. |
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05 Mar 08 - 11:40 AM (#2280246) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: PoppaGator The NY Hibernians had the backbone to defy the Archbishop? All right! Next thing you know, they'll let the gay Irish Americans participate ~ maybe... |
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05 Mar 08 - 11:41 AM (#2280247) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: SINSULL You mean the ones that are "out", right? I suspect that more than one gay person has marched in that parade over the years. |
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05 Mar 08 - 11:49 AM (#2280252) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: Liz the Squeak I'd be a bit more sympathetic if the majority of people who "celebrate" St Patrick's Day were ever actually seen in a church. LTS |
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05 Mar 08 - 11:59 AM (#2280267) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: Rapparee An investigation in the Diocese of Ferns in Ireland brought out: * The failure of Bishop Donal Herlihy to exclude clearly unsuitable candidates from the priesthood; * His failure to report incidents of proven sexual abuse to the legal authorities and his failure to acknowledge that abusers needed to be kept from children; * The failure of his successor, Brendan Comiskey, to report incidents of abuse and remove abusers from positions where they worked with children. Among the cases revealed were * The rape of teenage girls on the altar of a church by one priest; * The use of blackmail by another priest to force children to perform sex acts on him; In the Diocese of Tuam, an eight-year (1999-2007) enquiry and report by Dr Elizabeth Healy and Dr Kevin McCoy into the Brothers of Charity Congregation's "Holy Family School" in Galway, the major city of the archdiocese, and two other locations was made public in December 2007. 11 brothers and 7 other staff members were alleged to have abused 21 intellectually-disabled children in residential care in the period 1965-1998. By 2007, two members of staff were convicted of abuse, eight had died and the rest had retired. There were also proven accusations in the Diocese of Dublin. These are in addition to the Magdalen Laundries and the Bishop of Galway's son. The Catholic Church in Ireland has taken quite a tumble in recent years. Now the London Times reports (2/28/2008) that within 20 years Ireland will run out of priests. |
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05 Mar 08 - 12:05 PM (#2280274) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: PoppaGator "You mean the ones that are "out", right? I suspect that more than one gay person has marched in that parade over the years." Amen to that. Indeed, I have my suspicions about some of the very clerics who are most adamant about banning their more outspoken brethern. "I'd be a bit more sympathetic if the majority of people who "celebrate" St Patrick's Day were ever actually seen in a church." Actually, for me, it's the more secular group who deserve the most sympathy. They wish only to celebrate their national/ethnic identity, but are being hindered by a bureaucracy whose authority they do not recognize. |
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05 Mar 08 - 12:07 PM (#2280278) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: Big Mick Rap..... what has that post got to do with the subject at hand? We have plenty of threads that you could take a slap at the Church in, as has been going on for months. |
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05 Mar 08 - 12:14 PM (#2280289) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: Rapparee Mick, I'm not taking a slap at the RC Church. I just think that there are more important problems facing it than whether or not to celebrate St. Patrick's Day during Holy Week. To be honest, I've wondered for years why the Catholic Church (and all the other Christian churches) are so mournful between Palm Sunday and Easter. Wouldn't it be better to celebrate the Salvation and Redemption of mankind by the willing sacrifice of Himself by the Son of God? But then, I think celebration is pretty much always in order. |
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05 Mar 08 - 12:15 PM (#2280290) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: Big Mick Yeah, that would be a good discussion. Sorry for snapping at you, I am a bit grumpy today. Too damn much to do. Onward and upward. Mick |
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05 Mar 08 - 12:26 PM (#2280302) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: PoppaGator Glad to see you fellows kiss and make up ;^) Sorry ~ couldn't help myself... |
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05 Mar 08 - 01:49 PM (#2280393) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: GUEST,mg Look..Catholics..Irish at least..celebrate one day of the year whole heartedly and that is St. Patrick's Day. Oh allow me to amend that to Irish Americans. It is the only day of the year that you don't have to be sad about something..don't get happy on Christmas because sooner or later He is going to die. Don't get happy at Easter because he just died for heaven's sake. So I for one will defy Vatican X whatever and celebrate St. Patrick's day on March 17 as my ancestors (on my father's side) did before me. That is the day. You get excused from Lent. Even if it falls on GOod Friday. It is OK. That is how God wanted it. If he didn't want it that way he could amend the solar system so it fell on another day. mg |
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05 Mar 08 - 01:54 PM (#2280398) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: GUEST,mg Lent is not ignored on St. Patrick's day. It is dispensed with by edict of Archbishops with Irish names. That is the way it was and that is the way it always will be as long as I am alive. I had enough edicts to infer that it is a done deal by now. mg |
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05 Mar 08 - 02:00 PM (#2280404) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: GUEST,mg Furthermore if you are not Irish-American don't interfere. I don't go telling Italians or Jews or B'Hais what to do with their celebrations or what songs to sing or when to celebrate what and that the theological ramifications of it all are. And I do not care furthermore to hear how they celebrate or commemerate in Ireland. It is an Irish-American holiday that moved back to Ireland mixed in with holier celebrations there. And this was a special dispensation given to the Irish by some pope back somewhere to bless them for keeping the faith. Why not in Holy Week? Who was holier than your Irish great-grandfather? Or at least as holy.... mg |
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05 Mar 08 - 02:18 PM (#2280422) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: Big Mick Have at 'em, lass........LOL. Mick |
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05 Mar 08 - 02:32 PM (#2280428) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: Joe Offer You can do anything you want on St. Patrick's Day, Mary. But if you're a priest, don't go celebrating the Mass of St. Patrick during Holy Week. As PoppaGator so succinctly says, Holy Week trumps St. Paddy, just like a Queen takes a Jack. It's not an issue - it's just the rules of the card game. Holy Week trumps St. Joseph on March 19, too. But the edict simply applies to what goes on the church calendar, nothing more. We don't celebrate the Mass of St. Patrick on any Sunday, either. Rapaire says "there are more important problems facing it than whether or not to celebrate St. Patrick's Day during Holy Week." That's true - but just because I have more important things to deal with, I still brush my teeth on a regular basis. Even in times of crisis, mundane things like managing the calendar must go on. And that's what this is - just setting the calendar for the year, not an issue. -Joe Offer- |
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05 Mar 08 - 03:21 PM (#2280468) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: Rapparee As I said earlier, I don't let my church interfere with my religion. |
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05 Mar 08 - 03:59 PM (#2280513) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: Joe Offer OK, Rapaire - but I still don't understand your comment "there are more important problems facing it than whether or not to celebrate St. Patrick's Day during Holy Week." What's your point? - that the church shouldn't be doing anything normal because they're facing a crisis? If I'm facing a crisis, should I just stay in bed in the morning? Am I not allowed to eat breakfast because my church has a child abuse crisis? Since it does have a child abuse crisis, does logic tell us the Catholic Church must now celebrate the Mass of St. Patrick instead of a feast of a higher level? The Catholic Church has never celebrated St. Patrick's Day if it falls on Sunday, because Sunday trumps just about everything but Christmas. Now, as a nice gesture to St. Patrick fans, it moved the feast instead of cancelling it. What's so wrong about that, and why is it an issue? -Joe- |
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05 Mar 08 - 04:47 PM (#2280556) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: Rapparee Joe, if people want to celebrate St. Patrick on December 25, I don't care. But.... ...the Church would not allow us to bury my mother until the Monday after Easter because funerals were not permitted during Holy Week. However, I long ago gave up trying to figure out why the Vatican makes the rules it does. Much of what it does -- e.g., the recent dust-up over going back to the response "And with your spirit" (Et cum spiritu tuo) to "The Lord be with you" (Dominus vobiscum) instead of "And also with you" (which flows better and makes better sense in modern English) -- I find is akin to washing the outside of the cup. There is far more than the sex scandals facing the RC church. But as Mick noted, there have been other threads on it and I don't propose to start another. I just think that it's pretty silly, that's all. |
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05 Mar 08 - 05:16 PM (#2280585) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: GUEST,mg Oh how I wish Catholics could be sensible and think for themselves...but we can't. At least I can't. Any thought I have is usually some sort of heresy. I was trying to explain this to a Jewish woman..she said, but maybe you could grow. I was dumbfounded. It was a new concept to me. I just had to tell her Catholics don't grow...perhaps we petrify is more like it. mg |
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05 Mar 08 - 05:20 PM (#2280588) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: Joe Offer Yeah, Rapaire, but if you want to discuss, you have to follow the rules of logic (and correct information). Funeral Masses are permitted only on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of Holy Week - so you couldn't have a Funeral Mass on Holy Thursday, Good Friday, Holy Saturday or any Sunday. The Triduum (Holy Thursday, Good Friday, Holy Saturday) is the most sacred time of the church year, so no other liturgies are permitted. Wednesday and Monday work, but not the four days in between. But if you wanted to bury your mom whenever and say a few prayers over her, you could have done it any day you liked. Despite the fact that the Catholic Church is facing a number of crises, you would not have been permitted to have seventeen naked nuns dancing around your mother's coffin, a rock band during the funeral, or a funeral during the Easter Triduum. So, I still don't see your logical connection between crises and the scheduling of funerals and St. Pat's Day. -Joe Offer- The American Catholic Bishops can't figure out how Rome can dictate how Americans talk English, either - so I agree with you on that point. I think they're trying to exert European dominance over those unruly Americans. |
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05 Mar 08 - 07:27 PM (#2280712) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: Joe Offer I dunno, Mary. Catholics sure seem to be good at thinking for themselves, however irrational their thinking may be. There's a huge and angry anti-intellectal right-wing force arising among the Catholic laity that wants the whole faith reduced to simplistic, legalistic fundamentalism. Catholic parishes offer all sorts of education programs for adults, and people just don't show up and then complain that the Church doesn't explain things to them. Mary, have you ever taken a religion class from somebody who actually has a college-level education in Catholic theology? I don't know how many adult-level classes I've taught for fewer than five people, but it's a lot. And when we bring in a more accomplished speaker, it's just as few - unless the speaker is a right-wing demagogue. The whole point of Vatican II was to encourage people to "be sensible and think for themselves," instead of waiting to be told what to do. I often hear complaints that Vatican II "watered down the faith" because people are no longer threatened with Hell for eating meat on Friday or breaking their Lenten fast (although fasting and abstinence are still highly encouraged). I hear complaints that a priest won't make a sick call on a Sunday morning, or on an evening when he's scheduled to teach a class. And people just can't seem to understand why parish worship takes precedence over the time they want for their wedding pictures. Same with this St. Patrick thing. The Catholic Church has been criticized, sometimes correctly, for overemphasis on the saints and forgetting God. Here's a case where God takes precedence over St. Patrick, and people go berserkers. And I sympathize greatly with the family who wants to have a funeral on Good Friday or Holy Saturday, but would they expect to be able to have a funeral on Christmas or Christmas Eve? Easter is a four-day celebration that is far more important than Christmas, so people are asked to forego weddings and funerals on those four days and have their family celebration two days earlier or two days later than they'd like - or to have the wedding or funeral without a Mass. Yes, there are "more important problems facing it than whether or not to celebrate St. Patrick's Day during Holy Week" - but the church is plagued by people screaming about just such trivialities. I wish they'd get a life, read a book, and think for a change. -Joe- |
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05 Mar 08 - 07:45 PM (#2280727) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: GUEST,mg THat is one of the cornerstones of their lives. That is a day they anticipate for a good part of the year. I am mixed up..are you a convert perhaps? mg |
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05 Mar 08 - 08:38 PM (#2280764) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: Joe Offer Yeah, I was converted to Catholicism in 1948, about a week after I was born. I have 16 years of Catholic education and a degree in theology from a Cahtolic seminary, and I've taught religion as a catechist for 41 years. But the church calendar, which was set up before St. Patrick was born, puts Holy Week as a priority over any of the saints. This applies strictly to the celebration of Mass - you can't celebrate anything but the Masses of Holy Week during Holy Week. You can have parades on March 17 if you want to, but Father McGillicuddy may not be available because he has lots of other things to do that week. -Joe- |
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05 Mar 08 - 09:00 PM (#2280776) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: Big Mick The whole argument is ludicrous, and is more of a comment on the state of modern Catholics and their understanding of their own religion, as well as their misguided priorities. Folks need to listen to Joe on this. The day is the feast day of a Saint of the Catholic Church. This isn't about your right to parades, parties, drinking stupid green beer, and being Irish once a year. It is the feast day of a Saint. There is no discussion as to the Church's right to move that day. The decision is theirs and theirs alone. Now, as to the secular celebration of so called Irishness, you are free to do that whenever you want, within the constraints of your own conscience as to whether or not to keep your Lenten vows of sacrifice. But taking shots at the Bishops, and the Church, because they won't give you dispensation from the most important time of reflection in the entire liturgical year so you can have a party is ridiculous. It just goes with the turf, folks. Mick, who wishes he had the dispensation but will live with it, cause thems the rules. |
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05 Mar 08 - 09:32 PM (#2280797) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: GUEST,mg You don't have to keep your Lenten vows of sacrifice on St. Patrick's Day. That is how we always did it. We were a missionary parish of Ireland. So don't feel guilty if you eat chocolate, drink beer, eat meat, etc. on St. Patrick's day. Now, if it falls on Good Friday I would be somewhat restrained, but I don't think you should fail to celebrate. And remember to do the stations on Good Friday. Plenary indulgence. mg |
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06 Mar 08 - 01:43 AM (#2280901) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: JohnInKansas But on a more serious note: New York Pub bans 'Danny Boy' All is not lost: Michigan pub to stage 50-hour marathon of song The Associated Press updated 6:11 p.m. CT, Wed., March. 5, 2008 NEW YORK - It's depressing. It's not usually sung in Ireland for St. Patrick's Day. And its lyrics were written by an Englishman who never set foot on Irish soil. Those are just some of the reasons a Manhattan pub has given for banning the song "Danny Boy" for the entire month of March. "It's overplayed, it's been ranked among the 25 most depressing songs of all time, and it's more appropriate for a funeral than for a St. Patrick's Day celebration," says Shaun Clancy, who owns Foley's Pub and Restaurant, just off Fifth Avenue opposite the Empire State Building. The 38-year-old, who started bartending when he was 12 at his father's pub in County Cavan, promises a guest free Guinness for singing any other traditional Irish song at the pub's March 11 pre-St. Patrick's Day karaoke party. On other nights, guests will be rewarded with a surprise. Not everyone agrees. A pub near Detroit — AJ's Cafe in Ferndale, Mich. — is staging a "Danny Boy" marathon on St. Patrick's Day weekend, offering 1,000 renditions of the song over 50 hours. [Not: Link failed at check in preview, but probably due to "maintenance" at the site.] John |
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06 Mar 08 - 02:26 AM (#2280909) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: Liz the Squeak Thanks Big Mick - that's exactly what I was trying to say. There are 365 days to go drinking yourself silly, why should St Patrick's day be any different, other than green beer? In my area of London, there is an Irish session twice a week (Irish music, played in a local pub owned/run by an Irishman)... If people want to celebrate being Irish, they can go there at any time of year and sing, play, drink, swear, boast, fight (within reason) and smoke outside in the garden. Occasionally, during the year, the session never gets off the ground because there aren't enough people to play. But on St Patrick's day, the place is heaving. Many people who turned up for the last St Patrick's Day session I went to there, were not Irish in the least degree or Catholic. Therefore, I feel perfectly justified in pointing at them and saying (in a voice like that of Nelson from the Simpsons) HA HA!! LTS |
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06 Mar 08 - 09:06 AM (#2281131) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: Liz the Squeak And why do you never see Welsh people rolling about the streets on St David's day, making Welsh cakes in the shape of daffodils and forcing everyone to sing 'Men of Harlech' four keys too high and in three different pitches? LTS |
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06 Mar 08 - 01:28 PM (#2281341) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: kandykane Top 10 Reasons Why I'm an Episcopalian (from Robin Williams) 10. No snake handling. [p.s. ok for st. patrick, just not for me.] 9. You can believe in dinosaurs. 8. Male and female God created them; male and female we ordain them. 7. You don't have to check your brains at the door. 6. Pew aerobics. 5. Church year is color-coded. 4. Free wine on Sunday. 3. All of the pageantry - none of the guilt. 2. You don't have to know how to swim to get baptized. And the Number One reason to be an Episcopalian: 1. No matter what you believe, there's bound to be at least one other Episcopalian who agrees with you. |
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06 Mar 08 - 07:21 PM (#2281674) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: GUEST,Joe Offer, at the CATHOLIC Women's Center I gotta know about this pew aerobics stuff.... |
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06 Mar 08 - 09:49 PM (#2281768) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: GUEST,mg About the Welsh...I do not know enough Welsh history but I am not aware of a huge catastrophe...chronic hard times to be sure...but not a diaspora..but I could be wrong...big chunks of Wales did not move to a fairly hostile land sleeping 20 to a room and having a life expectancy measured in days...which is not to minimize the difficult lives they undoubtedly had..in coal mines in particular..in Pennsylvania, Michigan, where my Welsh greatgrandparents ended up..in Washington state...but my feeling is there were never huge numbers of them clustered anywhere..I am not even sure what language they spoke...and since I believe they were Protestants, if they came to a Protestent majority country, they probably did not face as much religious discrimination as Catholic perhaps...mg |
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07 Mar 08 - 02:15 PM (#2282301) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: Joe Offer Well, today is the day that Catholic churches have the option to have the Mass of St. Patrick. Happy St. Pat's Day, everybody! Since I do positive stuff for Lent and don't really think much of giving things up, I think I'll start my celebration today and continue it through Monday. Some people may think that Catholics suppressed St. Patrick's Day this year. I think they turned it into a four-day celebration. Where's the green beer? -Joe- |
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07 Mar 08 - 03:54 PM (#2282389) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: PoppaGator Joe, I'm pretty sure that "pew aerobics" refers to the aspects of "high-church" or "Anglo-Catholic" Episcopal liturgy that are most similar to Roman Catholic practices ~ sitting, standing, and kneeling on cue. Except that standing is always an acceptable alternative to kneeling for Episcopalians who claim any degree of knee trouble. Items on the list of "reasons I'm an Episcopalian" that could just as easily be reasons for being a Catholic include: 10. No snake handling. 9. You can believe in dinosaurs. 6. Pew aerobics. 5. Church year is color-coded. 4. Free wine on Sunday. 2. You don't have to know how to swim to get baptized. The above features differentiate Epicopalianism from other Protestant denominations, but not from Catholicism. Only a smaller number of the cited "reasons" contrast it with the RC Church: 8. Male and female God created them; male and female we ordain them. (obvious major difference) 7. You don't have to check your brains at the door. (I realize that most liberal-intellectual Catholics would argue this point, but the Vatican does tell you what you're allowed to believe, at least to some extent, while the Episcopal Church recognizes that people will only believe that which they personally find plausible. In the words of Fr. Bill Terry, "We teach that Jesus died to take away your sins, not your brains.") 3. All of the pageantry - none of the guilt. (Well, most of the pageantry and as little guilt as possible...) And the Number One reason to be an Episcopalian: 1. No matter what you believe, there's bound to be at least one other Episcopalian who agrees with you. (See #7, above) |
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07 Mar 08 - 11:33 PM (#2282676) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: GUEST,leeneia I wish the whole St Patrick's Day thing would go away, and I'm sure the police and the hospitals in Kansas City would agree. The holiday here is mostly an excuse for a gigantic, drunken brawl. There are shootings and many arrests. Last year, a young man, very drunk. plunged out of a multi-story parking lot in the main drinking area. I can't remember whether the fall killed him, but I believe it did. If it didn't, there is little chance that he has returned to normal existence. This is considered 'normal' for St Patrick's Day! Sad, sad, sad... The Hibernians, who sponsor the parade, are trying to improve the situation. Moving the parade from 2 pm to 10 am has helped. But there is only so much they can do about the drinking. Maybe we could get the church to move the day to whatever day in the winter is farthest below zero... |
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08 Mar 08 - 01:33 AM (#2282710) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: Joe Offer Hey, I goofed - that's next Friday that's the Revised St. Patrick's Day. Well, the green beer tasted good anyhow - as long as I didn't look at it... |
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08 Mar 08 - 02:36 AM (#2282720) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: Backwoodsman "Who was holier than your Irish great-grandfather? Or at least as holy.... mg" Ever heard of Jesus Christ? |
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08 Mar 08 - 11:08 PM (#2283402) Subject: RE: BS: Holy Week Trumps St. Paddy From: mg Yes, but he was half-God. mg |