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Senate knuckles under to the NRA

14 May 99 - 01:04 AM (#78307)
Subject: Senate knuckles under to the NRA
From: Lonesome EJ

When the Brady Bill was passed, requiring gun dealers to do reasonable checks on gun-buyers and report sales, Republicans in congress inserted a loophole in the law that allowed exceptions for Gun Show sales. This was because sales at these shows were primarily by "Collectors" to "Collectors", conjuring up the image of sweet old geezers selling flint-lock long rifles to good-natured history buffs.

Guess what? This loop hole became a floodgate for unregistered sales of every kind of firearm including assault weapons. A Gun Show was the source of the Machine pistol used in the Columbine massacre. Today, an attempt was made to close this loophole in a bill introduced before the Senate. Republicans, holding the majority and displaying their traditional loyalty to the NRA, voted this common-sense correction to an obvious problem DOWN.

Both of our Senators in Colorado voted in favor of continuing this completely uncontrolled outlet for assault weapons to anyone who has the cash to buy them.Apparently, Senator Wayne Allard was deluged by FAXs, phone calls and e-mails. This afternoon he stated that he had "made a mistake" and had not properly understood the intent of the bill, and meant to vote for it.

I urge all of you who feel strongly about this to hold your Senator accountable for his vote on this issue, and let him or her know how you feel about it. I believe the majority of people in this country are in favor of reasonable controls on the distribution of guns, and that this vote represents the will of a wealthy and influential minority who don't have the best interests of the American people in mind. Yes, the Second Amendment guarantees our right to own guns. But without reasonable restraints GUNS OWN US


14 May 99 - 01:10 AM (#78308)
Subject: RE: Senate knuckles under to the NRA
From: Rick Fielding

Well said "Lonesome". Our gun laws are pretty stringent in Canada, but we still have the cowboys lobbyin' for those AK 47s. "Only things that'll bring down a deer ya know!"

14 May 99 - 01:10 AM (#78309)
Subject: RE: Senate knuckles under to the NRA
From: katlaughing

Good for you, Leej. I would tell Barbie Cubin that I don't appreciate her vote, but then she'd waste paper sending me a response letter full of Barbie BS which I wouldn't read. This is the woman who baked penis shaped cookies and distributed them to the state legislature and also took "crotch" pictures and posted them in a game on a bulletin board where everyone took a "stab" at guessing whose crotch was whose! And, she is totally in the "pants" of the NRA!


14 May 99 - 07:36 AM (#78355)
Subject: RE: Senate knuckles under to the NRA
From: Bob Schwarer

Dealers DO have to do background checks at gun shows.It's the individual non-dealer who was exempt.

Bob S.

14 May 99 - 07:52 AM (#78359)
Subject: RE: Senate knuckles under to the NRA
From: Roger in Baltimore

I beg to differ. Although "all of the guns" may have been sold at one time in gun shows (as one news report has it), a law requiring a waiting period and a background check would not have saved one life. These demented teens had been planning for over a year. The people who bought the guns would have passed both the check and the waiting period. So why pass the law?

Rick notes they have "tougher" gun control in Canada and there were still "copycat" events there.

The idea that we can legislate ourselves into some type of perfect Nirvana where no wrong, evil or injustice occurs is a fantasy of our imagination. We can imagine it, but it can never happen. Certainly it is something devoutly to be wished for, but in reality, there is evil in the world and we just have to accept that at times it gets the upper hand (usually not for long). We can never erase evil.

The killers of Colorado broke enough laws to have them locked up for a very long time. They knew they were breaking the laws. They must have known they had a high likelihood of being caught. Yet, they still planned the event. This was not impulsive. It was thought through, maybe not well, but thought through.

Passing more laws will only make more of us criminals and put more of us in danger of punishment from the state. So, be wary of calling for more laws as a reaction to this tragedy, especially ones that would have had no impact on the outcome except to add 10 years to the multiple life sentences that these young men are likely to serve.

Just had to say that. Getting conservative and crotchety in my old age.

Roger in Baltimore

14 May 99 - 08:47 AM (#78367)
Subject: RE: Senate knuckles under to the NRA
From: hank

right, Roger.

I've said before that there is a solution to all crime, but I don't want to live in the world of 1984, harrison Bergeron, Animole Farm, or any of the other books that detail the down side of this.

Yes there is danger now, but is the alternative really better? Do you really want to live in a world where your songs are controlled? I've already learned that those in athority have little idea of what the truth is, nor do they care about me, they just enjoy the power they have. I'd rather take my chances with rare events like the Colorado one then live in a world where there are enough police to enforce every silly law.

School shootings are rare. For that matter random murders are rare (unless you belive that drunk drivers are planed murders, and there are arguements for beliveing that) Cars kill more people then guns. Guns are not solely for killing, as those people who enjoy target practice will atest to. The worst case of students killing anouther happend in the 1940s when some few students blew up their school killing 300. They used the gas coming into the school ment for heat.

14 May 99 - 11:29 AM (#78410)
Subject: RE: Senate knuckles under to the NRA
From: Bob Schwarer

Amen, Roger. I'd have said the same thing if I could type faster.

Bob S.

14 May 99 - 11:53 AM (#78423)
Subject: RE: Senate knuckles under to the NRA
From: LEJ

And so living in a society with the easy availability and prolific number of guns makes us more free . Our noble Senator Ben Nighthorse Campbell, who by the way voted against the aforementioned measure, has presented a bill to provide funds for metal detectors and increased security at High Schools. Who is forcing whom to live in a police state? Because a small but vocal minority thinks assault weapons should be legal, our children should wear kevlar vests and deal with metal detectors? What the NRA and it's supporters need to realize is the truth of the old adage- your right to swing your fist ends at the point where it hits my nose.

14 May 99 - 09:46 PM (#78579)
Subject: RE: Senate knuckles under to the NRA
From: Tucker

I think we have to slow down here and analaze folks. Yes, Columbine was a tradegy. Instantly, liberals want to go after the 2nd amendment rights of folks in the United States. ( I will leave the politics of my internet global friends here to same for me). Ok, let me start by saying two facts. Both ( unfortunatley0f recent nature). The worst mass murders in American history were not by guns. Don't believe me,check them out. The worst by ONE individual was by a disgruntled bar customer, in NYC (stiff gun laws since early 1900's...sullivan act, boy has that been a great deterent!) where a bar patron mad at his girlfriend returned with a gallon of gas and a match and killed in excess of 160 people. Then came Oklahoma City, by two or more people, who killed over 180 people, no guns involved. Where is the drive for match/gasoline/fertilizer/rental van control? The kids who wasted 12 lives in Littleton Col, violated 18...repeat,18 existing state and federal laws. You know folks, it's like punishing the whole class for what Johnny did. You guys passed your 1968 gun control act (based on the Nazi gun control act of 1933), you passed your Brady Bill, got your 100000 policemen (where are they Car 54?)Guess what? I think you folks wanting gun control are afraid to admit you might be missing a wee problem here. Went to a Video store lately? Notice that every other Video has Mel Gibson or someone else holding a gun? As a gun owner and yes gun lover, it truly perturbs me to see anyone pointing a gun at another person. You liberals love this "action" crap but wonder why schools get shot up! DUH!!! Oh and by the way, this wasn't the worst school massacre ( I am not trying to belittle what happened at columbine by and by). The worst school massacre was in the late 20's by someone P.O.ed at the superintendent of the school who planted a bunch of dynamite in the basement of the school. It went off during school hours and killed 32 people, mostly kids, again, no guns involved. Maybe you folks need to know why the NRA came into existance. It's been around since 1871. We delve alot into our music, take a minute to look into an institution that has been with America for over 128 years. I'll give you a wee bit of a was to perserve American lives.....

15 May 99 - 12:18 AM (#78608)
Subject: RE: Senate knuckles under to the NRA
From: Barry Finn

Let me see if Ican get this right or the liberal or the old traditional slant on the gun packing issue. The NRA has been fighting for my right to arm myself against a suspect Republic. I'm such a bad shot that I need & should have the right to have an assult weapon so when I shoot at something I can say "fore" or "eat lead you nasty deer". If there are police, video cameras, metal detecters & Xray machines at the entrance of a grammer school then it'll be OK to keep high power, rapid firing pieces in the hands of all law biding citizens. If we're not outlawing shit, gasoline, matches or TNT, oh sorry TNT is outlawed (though at this point I don't understand why), then we shouldn't outlaw those cute little hand held equivalents of the Tommy Gun. Because bombs killed more than guns on a per incident basis or that cars get away with murder more often than not it's OK for my kid or someone else's kid to be a victim. Tell a parent whose's lost their kid to an assult weapon that it's everybody's right to own an AK47 or we shouldn't try to deter it's sale. Now we all love a freedom fighter whose holding back the demons of hell, from riddling our souls with political jargon. I just hope that, that hero is as good looking as Sly or Chucky & can handle as many firearms as our big screen buddies, who by the way are carrying on, on screen in such a way that it leads me to believe that violent films & the NRA may be two of a kind that's beating on the same full house. I'm not proposing that one need give up their sidearm or their long muzzeled shoulder shooter, I only question the need to keep a machine that can spray a target range or a football field with more bullets to spare than the law would allow. Sorry if this sounds like it comes from the mouth or trigger happy fingers of one whose's seen more automatic weapons & sawed down double over & under splat guns as a kid in the hands of kids than I've seen as an adult in the hands of hunters. I also would rather gun proof my home than bullet proof my kid. You can call me Liberal, a Commie, a John Bircher, a Republic's Republician, a tree hugger, a dove or a gosh hawk, a supporter of the TPF, the FBI, the CIA or the KKK or the NAACP call me anything that comes to mind but don't call me saying that a kids right to live a unusually long life takes a back seat to owning gangster gun. Barry

15 May 99 - 12:30 AM (#78609)
Subject: RE: Senate knuckles under to the NRA
From: Barry Finn

One more note. To push aside the recent tragic events as if it were to be excepted as a byproduct of the times & that we need to build a bridge to get over & past it is at this moment in time a little insensitive. Maybe the pro debate could allow for a period of mourning to pass first. Barry

15 May 99 - 12:47 AM (#78610)
Subject: RE: Senate knuckles under to the NRA
From: katlaughing

Well said, Barry!

15 May 99 - 06:00 PM (#78736)
Subject: RE: Senate knuckles under to the NRA
From: Tucker

Kat, you know me better than that and Barry you need to know me better before you level the personal attacks on me that you have. I want to ask you both. Have you ever personally ever seen a gun aimed in spite at another person? I have to admit I have, twice, both times by cops, but then again I was a professional firefighter and this was over 25 years of a career. To say I am not in mourning over the deaths of the 11 children and the teacher is an insult to me and many others. I did not kill those people, yet you insinuate blame upon me. Answer me this question, until after 1968 any American could buy firearms through the mail, but our crime rate wasn't near what it is now. Why? The same guns were offered, technology hasn't changed. Americans haven't been allowed to own machine guns since 1933. Are you afraid to admit that maybe Hollywood has something to do with it? Oh I guess you never seen a flick that inspired you to do one thing or the other! Oh well, I just got back from Nuemburg, Alabama, I have to wash my white robes and brown shirts....such a party place...kinda like Moscow and Beijing.Seig...sorry comrade, (humming the internationale)

15 May 99 - 07:05 PM (#78750)
Subject: RE: Senate knuckles under to the NRA
From: katlaughing

I have an editorial which was published a couple of years back which addresses some of this issue. I will have time, later tonight, to find it and paste it into here. Until then, no comment.


15 May 99 - 07:22 PM (#78756)
Subject: RE: Senate knuckles under to the NRA
From: Richard Bridge

Please see my posting to the other guns thread

15 May 99 - 09:35 PM (#78779)
Subject: RE: Senate knuckles under to the NRA
From: LEJ

Hey Tucker... I don't think anybody is accusing you of being a NAZI, KKK member, or a contributor to the Columbine massacre. In the wake of this horror, it is right that we re-examine a lot of things that are wrong with our culture. The ready availability of guns and the un-traceability of weapons sold at Gun Shows is one. I am talking about a solution to that specific problem. Do you think it is a problem? If so, how would you solve it?

I agree with you about the glorification of violence in Hollywood- it's because VIOLENCE SELLS, and Hollywood is about MONEY. I suppose that public boycott of violent films is one way to discourage this, but I don't think government imposed censorship is an answer that you or I would want. In the video store down stairs from my store they have 4 shelves of Faces of Death videotapes. These are movies that consist of documentary and amateur video footage of executions, murders and accidental deaths. The biggest market for this soul-killing garbage is TEENAGERS. Should parents unite in an effort to get this stuff out of the store? HELL YES!

Another problem is violent computer games. I used to, but no longer sell them. It was difficult, because these violent games are the TOP SELLERS- but do you think Best Buy and Media Play would stop selling these if enough people threatened to buy NOTHING ELSE from them- You damn right! The breakup of the traditional family is also a contributor to this- but we can do the Right thing with our own families, and try to chip in with other kids who are lost or losing focus on what is Right.

No, Tucker, nobody is saying it's just guns- but even you have to admit that there are BIG problems with the way they are being acquired and used by kids for violence. What I am saying is , let's stop fighting with each other, start compromising, and DO SOMETHING ABOUT A PROBLEM WITH OUR YOUTH THAT IS OBVIOUS TO ALL OF US!


16 May 99 - 01:13 AM (#78811)
Subject: RE: Senate knuckles under to the NRA
From: katlaughing

Published 11-16-1997 by Kathleen LaFrance in the Casper Star TRIBUNE:

Tucker et al: Please remember this was written before I knew any of you and that it is MY opinion, only. You are free to believe and think what you want, of course. And, while I would write this in a different manner, now, it still says essentially what I wanted to:

Lack of Respect for Guns Lethal

I'm a Western woman, born and bred. For the life of me, I'm in despair. The lack of respect for the lethal power of guns and the zealots' desire to arm one and all have contributed to my becoming a pacifist.

My dad worked in the oilfields and was raised on a ranch in Colorado. He always had a 'six-shooter" in a holster behind the seat of his pickup. Coming in late from a rig, and earlier in his life, when herding cattle through scrub oak and greasewood, he never knew when he might have to put an animal down because of injuries.

He grew up with a healthy respect for guns, Their main purpose was to kill for protection or compassion for an animal in pain. Guns were never used to hunt. He didn't believe in it.

I remember target shooting at five years old. I knew how to load both the six-shooter and the single shot twenty-two rifle. I'd bring my arm up slowly, then down, with my left eye closed, "drawing a bead" then, aim for the center, while gently squeezing the trigger. By the time I was eight, I believed I was a 'deadeye,' a regular Annie Oakley, after hitting the center of a paper plate from maybe 10 feet away.

Dad dazzled us with the feats of a sharpshooter: shooting tin cans flung high above us in the dazzling mountain sky; piercing pennies, dead-center, positioned on a log like prisoners awaiting execution.

We were all taught these basics: 1. Never point a gun unless you mean to use it, not even a toy gun. 2. Never walk carelessly around with a loaded gun. 3. When a gun is loaded, keep the safety on, the point down, make sure everyone is out of range. 4. Shoot into the side of a hill for a target.

With his gruff voice, one stern reprimand was enough from Dad. We'd never forget the rules of safety and respect. It seemed a straightforward, plain and simple 'code' to live by, passed from generation to generation.

In the Old West, use of 'guns as problem-solvers' didn't fit in with the gentrification of even one-horse, one-street, dusty old towns. Often, one was required to check one's weaponry in at the local sheriff's office for the duration of a visit. Lead-bullet settling of sheep and cattle differences were left to the far-flung corners of the range.

As the Old West tamed down, even though guns continued to be a part of daily life, 'shoot'em up townies' were generally relegated to the celluloid of Hollywood.

Today, most children, young adults and many grown-ups do not have any respect for or comprehension of the absolute finality a gun can bring to a person's life. Many seem to lack even a shred of compassion and seem to have become inured to the injury and destruction a "lethal weapon" can cause.

So, we have children killing children. Often, there is no time or training, for the thought processes which might call a halt to this lethal resolution of a problem. When it's too late, children find the real power of a gun is not intimidation, but actual death or maiming for life. Which brings us back to a lack of respect for the power of guns and life.

When my dad, in the '60s, said they'd never get his gun, registered or not,I agreed. The government had no reason, unless we were criminals, in coming for our firepower. Then, about the only weapons anybody had were handguns, rifles and shotguns.

Today, with the techno-perversions we've seen developed to the point of rapid-fire, multiple-deaths-from-rage in a few minutes, I can longer support this belief. With the complete lack of training and understanding of the deadliness of guns, we cannot continue to support a wide open policy of gun ownership.

Maybe it's time to return to the "check your gun at the town line" policy, at least for assault/semi-automatic weapons.

Owning a gun, even arming children, has become almost a religion, and is a prominent political issue. Extremists' paranoia knows no bounds when dealing with mythical government agents.

The perception seems to be if we aren't armed, we can't protect ourselves from the 'New World Order.' In a militiaman's nightmare of government run rampant, those of us who are not prepared will most likely face annihilation or be marched quickstep into the bowels of some amorphous prison, only to return as automatons, ready and willing to perpetuate the socialistic agenda of a government gone AWOL.

It is part of the perversion of our world that we no longer have to "see the whites of their eyes" when on a murderous spree during a rampage or war.
While we cannot go back to the good ole' days, it would be to our benefit to consider other choices to the all out paranoia-with-violence we see today.

There must be reasonable alternatives tot the rhetoric of divisiveness and advocacy of violence which dominates our daily news. Guns are made for one purpose only, to kill. With each century, each decade, each year, each generation, humankind is supposed to be a step higher on the evolutionary ladder. These days it seems we've missed a step.

copyright 1997 OoBraughLoo Press

16 May 99 - 01:53 AM (#78819)
Subject: RE: Senate knuckles under to the NRA
From: Lonesome EJ

Bravo, Katlaf

16 May 99 - 02:12 AM (#78824)
Subject: RE: Senate knuckles under to the NRA
From: katlaughing

Thanks, Leej

16 May 99 - 11:07 AM (#78879)
Subject: RE: Senate knuckles under to the NRA
From: Barry Finn

Hi Tucker & others. Tucker you were not unger personal attack only some of your comments & you were not being held responsible for the deaths of any, I only asked if a pro side would allow for some healing time before advocating "right to own gun issues". You said that you've seen a gun aimed in spite at some one twice & ask if I've ever seen this, I grew up in a part of the inner city (Roxbury, a part of Boston) that would made the wild west look tame. Many that I grew up with have either been killed by a gun of have killed with a gun. Yes, I've seen a gun aimed in spite, a few times, at me & have also been shot at so I don't take lightly to the ownership of firearms. There are some who've seen war & won't allow themselves close to a gun & then there are others that believe that because the goverment trained them in the finer arts of killing that they now have a mission in keeping that firearm. My brother was a Navy seal, his specialty, underwater demolition during the Viet Nam war, they were still trying to use him in South America 10 years ago. He can rig up a silencer in the field in a matter of minutes & can turn a semi auto weapon into a auto by the time it takes him to drop you to the floor. His weapon of choice is the same weapon that the gun manufacturer's target towards teen gangs, the same gun that was outlawed & then quickly redesigned so it could be again sold to the public, the rapid firing Tec-9, a hand held arsenal. What in the world does a firearm like this have a use for besides mass murder, it's not a target gun, a hunter's gun or a gun one would use to protect themselves, unless they're been attacked by a herd of wild elephants. These are the guns that have no non military use & need to be put out of the production line and those that would want them shouldn't have a license to drive. As to Hollywood, my comment was not in favor of violence in films, only that the NRA supports the ownership of the same high power weapons that Chuck Norris & Sly Stallion use in their "Kick'm & Kill'm" flicks & then go on & lay the blame on Hollywood without excepting any of the responsiblty themselves. Funny how two can sleep in the same bed & deny any attraction for one another. The technology since 1968 has advanced in leaps & bounds so much so that the outlawed machine gun in a toy by comparison while the overall value on human life had reversed itself. In the 60's we had a few crime families trying to pretend to be law abiding, hell we didn't even admit to their existence, now we have posses whose's branches are nationwide, Russian KGB agents that have gone into the blackmarket, parmilitary groups that fear everyone from God to the fish in the ocean & want to protect us from Buddha & kids that just can't cope. So let's match firepower, except you can have your weapon in hand & 1000 miles away it won't held some poor kid getting gunned down not even if it's just on the otherside of town & unless you're willing to pull the trigger while staring into the face of death you won't be helpful at all (that's a cops job & God help them, it' only getting worst). My sister-in-law was sent to the "Land Of The Warlords" a couple of years back while working for the (BLANK) to asess the suituation there. She was escorted by 'kids with weapons' (sounds like a new band) at an intersection traffic jam the way they got to proceed was to shoot their way through it, may the best or fastest win. She lost a co-worker to the bullet all for the want of his sun glasses (could've been sneakers, is this sounding familar). Her asessment was, they where beyond help or care, the rest of the world would be better off if they'd kill themselves off, their value on human life was non existing due to the conditions of their surroundings over a prolonged period of time & may be suffering from post traumatic stress as a community & we should remove all personnel from the area (it sounds a little to close to home). This was a part of a country gone out of control, governed by Warlors, now it may seen as if we're not to far behind this & that we should all run out to arm ourselves to the teeth & then we could be just like them. No Tucker, I was not attacking you only the reasoning for owning anything more devastating than the lowly humble hunting gun. Barry

16 May 99 - 11:02 PM (#79036)
Subject: RE: Senate knuckles under to the NRA
From: Don Meixner

Well, here is my two cents.

I grew up within a family where shooting was a part of life. Not a way of life. We just did it because food was there to be had on the land. It was no more an issue to shoot at a Canada Goose than it was to pull a bushell of tomatos. It was what we did. It was what my neighbors did. My home had a Steven's Model 12 12 gauge and a Winchester Model 1897 .32 special. the odd .22 and my Dad had a few pistols, the .25 autoloader he carried when he transported gold or silver and a Colt's Python that he never even fired. Of the seven kids in the house it was an un even split as to who ever fired those guns. Some did some didn't and some never have. We had them and we used them as tools, cleaned them and put them away when we were done with them. They required care and consideration. The same kind of consideration that the power take off on the John Deere took. The tractor would hurt you just as fast and a whole lot messier than the Colt would but either way you were injured or dead. It is my right and I consider it my priviledge to be a gun owner. The right is given me by the constitution and the priviledge is given me by the laws in the state of New York that say as long as I'm not a felon I may continue to hunt and shoot and carry.

I won't debate the need to own and collect a Mac - 10 or a Tech 9, or a Kalashnikov. But I uphold the right to do so. I won't try and explain the diference between an autoloader and fully automatic assault weapon. I don't need an Uzi, I couldn't afford to load one let alone bang off a clip. But I can shoot a 45-70 trapdoor Springfiled from time to time. Why, because its fun to ventilate paint cans at a 175 yards. Both the Kalashnikov and the Trapdoor are long guns. And long guns are currently in Sara Brady's sights so to speak. When you legislate the Uzi collector you also legislate the blackpowder and primitive shooters out there. An Uzi is so fast you can unlad a 30 round clip before I can chamber and cock a single round in the Springfield.

Those murderous young men in Colorado were hard wired to do this damage with or without a pistol and a shotgun. They could have as easily poisoned the soup or crashed a school bus to greater damage and loss of life. The guns were the tools. The laws in effect were adequate just not enforced.

Knee jerk laws to protect the dead after the fact do not cage the criminal, they only criminalize that casual sportsmen and subsistence hunter in all the states. If you wish to create effective gun laws don't create new ones. Enforce actively, equally, and fairly those that now exist.