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15 May 99 - 04:21 PM (#78723) Subject: Souling Song - how old? From: Ian HP On the DT database is the SOULING SONG as below. How old is it? Does anyone have more info?
A soul, a soul, a soul cake
God Bless the master of this house, the mistress also
The lanes are very dirty and my shoes are very thin Sung for All Souls (November 1). A soul cake was left for the spirits that left their graves on Samhain (Halloween) |
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15 May 99 - 07:25 PM (#78758) Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old? From: Graham Pirt See "Frost and Fire" LP by the Watersons. Bit rushed at the moment but will send details later if no-one else does |
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15 May 99 - 09:45 PM (#78781) Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old? From: Susanne (skw) 'Frost and Fire' says nothing about the song's age. Palmer only mentions that All Souls (which is on 2 Nov, apparently) has been going since AD 993. I don't suppose that's any good to you? - Susanne |
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16 May 99 - 03:52 AM (#78832) Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old? From: Richard Bridge At a guess about 1300-ish (from the sound). I'll ask the wife when she's out of the pool. |
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16 May 99 - 05:52 AM (#78838) Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old? From: Graham Pirt The tune is one of the most primitive forms in Europe, three tones within the compass of a third. The scale in Soul Song is a trichord of la-si-do with a small hitch to re which might be an abberation of a singer. Bert Lloyd says the tune commonly sung to it is from Cheshire, UK. The tune format is very old but that doesn't necessarily make this tune the same. It certainly fits with All Souls night (pre-Christian to All hallows) |
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16 May 99 - 08:59 AM (#78859) Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old? From: Roger in Baltimore Bruce O., Where are you when we need you? Roger in Baltimore |
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16 May 99 - 10:48 AM (#78876) Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old? From: Ian HP Thanks, folks. I've managed to find a great deal of stuff on the net about souling and soul cakes, which helps me a little, locating the custom as early as the 10th century. What intrigues me is this: what is our earliest evidence for the song to date it? Is there any evidence for the antiquity of the song itself? |
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16 May 99 - 06:01 PM (#78961) Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old? From: In English County Songs, p. 30, 1893. |
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18 May 99 - 04:17 PM (#79579) Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old? From: Ian HP Thanks, anon. I'm going to be tenacious here. How come the song is only dated to 1893 and yet the custom is so ancient? Does the book give any clues? Cheers |
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18 May 99 - 06:36 PM (#79621) Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old? From: Susanne (skw) Could it be that nobody thought such a simple and 'artless' song worthy of being written down or printed before the Victorian collectors? - Susanne |
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29 Oct 02 - 11:58 AM (#813652) Subject: Lyr Add: THE SOULER'S SONG (1777) From: IanC The Soulers' song is given in Brand's "Popular Antiquities" (1777). The words were apparently taken down verbatim from the lips of "the merry pack, who sing them from door to door, on the eve of All - Soul's Day, in Cheshire". THE SOULER'S SONG. "Soul day, soul day, Saul One for Peter, two for Paul, Three for Him who made us all. An apple, a pear, a plum or a cherry, Any good thing that will make us all merry. Put your hand in your pocket and pull out your keys, Go down into the cellar, bring up what you please; A glass of your wine, or a cup of your beer, And we'll never come souling till this time next year. We are a pack of merry boys, all in a mind, We are come a souling for what we can find, Soul, soul, sole of my shoe, If you have no apples, money will do; Up with your kettle and down with your pan, Give us an answer and let us be gone Seems a good time to add this! :-) Ian |
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29 Oct 02 - 12:12 PM (#813666) Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old? From: AggieD Sorry link clicky thing didn't work, try www.backshift.demon.co.uk/petehome.htm Aggie |
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29 Oct 02 - 01:08 PM (#813712) Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old? From: GUEST,Q Thanks, IanC, for a more authentic version. Was there any suggestion of a tune with it? |
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29 Oct 02 - 02:11 PM (#813769) Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old? From: Malcolm Douglas The tune, as Graham Pirt mentioned back when this thread was young, is very old and very widespread; most often heard attached, nowadays, to nursery rhymes (Baby Bunting for one) and playground taunts. A. L. Lloyd frequently pointed this out, together with its association with ceremonial customs. It is not the only tune used for souling songs; in some cases tunes and texts have been borrowed from wassail songs. The earliest published examples of tunes are, so far as I know, a set from Tattenhall (Cheshire), included in Lucy Broadwood's English County Songs (1893) one from Eccleshall (Shropshire) in C. S. Burne's Shropshire Folk-Lore (1883) and one from Mobberley in R. Holland's Glossary of Words used in the County of Chester (1886). The first is the minor trichordal melody made popular in the Revival; the second is similar, but in the major; and the third is a borrowed wassail tune. Certainly soul-caking is an old custom, but attempts to date it to the 10th century seem to be based solely on the fact that the festival of All Souls' Day was instituted in AD 993, and are probably no more than wishful thinking. Most such customs are little mentioned (if at all) before the 18th century, when there was an upsurge of interest in antiquarian subjects. It seems reasonable to suppose that there was a form of the song current for some time before it was first noted, but we have no way of telling how long. The fact that the tune is old tells us nothing about the song. |
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30 Dec 22 - 06:18 PM (#4160750) Subject: Lyr Add: CHESHIRE ALL SOULS' DAY SONG From: Jim Dixon The identical lyrics that IanC posted on 29 Oct 02, which he called THE SOULER’S SONG can also be found in The Athenæum: Journal of English and Foreign Literature, Science, and the Fine Arts, No. 997, London, Dec 5, 1846, page 1244. where it is called CHESHIRE ALL SOULS' DAY SONG. That pushes the “oldest known” date back by 31 years. |
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31 Dec 22 - 01:38 AM (#4160768) Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old? From: Reinhard Uh, the date given by IanC on 29 Oct 02 is 1777, not 1877. |
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31 Dec 22 - 02:29 PM (#4160858) Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old? From: Steve Gardham Of the earliest version it might well be worth noting for those not in the know that only the first 3 lines are unique to Souling/Cheshire. The rest of the text is common to many other seasonal busking/cerebrational songs such as Easter Pace-egging, harvest songs and Christmas house visit songs. |
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31 Dec 22 - 03:01 PM (#4160866) Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old? From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler My mother had an odd variation in her version from Watchet in Somerset. If you haven't got a penny a ha'penny will do If you haven't got a ha'penny a farthing will do, If you haven't got a farthing shoe will do. Could this be a corruption of "a sou will do"? And don't forget to try baking some soulcakes, they are quite tasty. Robin |
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01 Jan 23 - 04:14 PM (#4160947) Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old? From: Steve Gardham We sang at the termination of a few carols whilst house calling at Christmas: If you haven't got a penny an 'a-p'ny will do, If you haven't got an 'a-p'ny, well God bless you, Knockin on the knocker, ringin on the bell, If you don't give us a penny then you can go to **** |
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02 Jan 23 - 02:49 PM (#4161068) Subject: RE: Souling Song - how old? From: GeoffLawes Link to Mudcat post SOULING SONG (aka A-Soalin') /mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=170494#soulingsong:~:text=Date%3A%2018%20Oct%2021%20%2D%2004%3A26%20AM |