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BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC

03 Apr 08 - 03:09 PM (#2305730)
Subject: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

Just heard on the news. The devil is in the details, of course.

This is the best news Clinton has had since before Super Tuesday.

03 Apr 08 - 04:07 PM (#2305766)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Rapparee

This comes as a surprise???

03 Apr 08 - 04:11 PM (#2305774)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Deckman

... just follow the money!

03 Apr 08 - 04:11 PM (#2305775)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Genie

I don't see this as a biggie (aside from sending the message that the party rules can be broken with no consequence).    Obama's name was on the ballot, and I don't think Hillary won the state by a wide enough margin to make a huge dent in Obama's delegate lead over her.   Plus, it was really the Republican-dominated legislature who forced the early primary.

Michigan's a whole different can o' worms.

03 Apr 08 - 04:19 PM (#2305786)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Riginslinger

Yeah, now they need to seat Michigan.

03 Apr 08 - 04:54 PM (#2305829)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The DNC may be trying to avoid a court test on constitutionality. Suit has been filed in the 11th District Appeals Court and will be heard sometime in April.

03 Apr 08 - 04:59 PM (#2305839)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Genie

Seating Michigan would be a farce, since the voters had absolutely no option for voting for Obama in Michigan - not even as a write-in. (But we have another thread for Michigan, Rig.) : )

03 Apr 08 - 05:12 PM (#2305849)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos

It would be more of a surprise to me if they weren't seated somehow. After all, the Democrats called for a re-count in the 2000 election. How could they then justify turning their backs on the Florida electorate?

It's either be a hypocrite about the 2000 election or get accused of fawning to Hillary in this one.

03 Apr 08 - 05:21 PM (#2305860)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

Actually, Clinton won Florida by a 17% margin according to the AP article I got the info from, which would, if awarded under the formula normally used in FL primaries, give her the lead over Obama in the delegate count.

The case in FL is substantially different than the Michigan case, so please don't consolidate threads--it will make the discussion of the two very difficult.

At this point, it is clear that Obama doesn't want the vote counted, because he was trounced. He is also trailing Clinton in the "matchup" polls pitting each candidate against McCain.

Florida's Dems don't seem to be terribly pro-Obama, which will make negotiations difficult, especially with the popular vote being so decisively in favor of Clinton.

03 Apr 08 - 05:35 PM (#2305879)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Clinton won every county except for those in a narrow strip along the Georgia-Alabama border.
G-G is correct; the vote was 50% Clinton, 33% Obama, 14% Edwards, and 1% Kukcinch.
CNN Election Center.

03 Apr 08 - 05:42 PM (#2305884)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Bobert

I've had my head in books 'n taxes all day and haven't so much as turned the TV or radio on so this does come as a surprise...

So what is gonna be the delgate breakdown, G-zer???

And are they gonna be able to participate in the 1st round balloting for the presidential nomination??? And are they gonna be held to pledges???

Like you say, the devil is in the details... I can't believe the Obama camp didn't atr least get some concessions...

B~

03 Apr 08 - 06:08 PM (#2305899)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

The only assurances Dean would give was that the outcome would have to be amenable to both campaigns.

So, perhaps hell will freeze over this summer?

03 Apr 08 - 06:36 PM (#2305919)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Donuel

I was hoping Florida would f up another election.

Its just not a fake election without Florida.

03 Apr 08 - 06:44 PM (#2305927)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Bobert

..."amenable to both camps"...

Hmmmmmm??? Ain't that been the hangup all along???

B~

03 Apr 08 - 07:01 PM (#2305941)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Amos

Chaos,

There is a universe of difference between the disenfranchisement of hundreds or thousands in the national election, as Florida was forced to do in 2000 and also did in 2004 -- and fouling up th erules of the DNC primary process.

I am amazed you even think them as comparable.


Anyway, the big Q in my mind, is where the Kucinich and Edwards per centages go.

A

03 Apr 08 - 07:29 PM (#2305975)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Jack the Sailor

Did Edwards win Delegates?

03 Apr 08 - 07:43 PM (#2305982)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Over 3.3 million voters in the Florida primaries, about evenly split between Democrats and Republicans. In an election, the papers suggest that the state will be very close again.

Only 9500 voted for Kupcinch, , 0.6%, so it doesn't matter what is done with those votes. Edwards 14%. Today it sounded like Edwards is fishing around to see what he is offered, if anything.

Michigan- They could agree to be seated at the Convention as 'uninstructed,.' which would leave them open to both contenders

03 Apr 08 - 07:46 PM (#2305984)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

Delagates are apportioned by congressional district. It is possible that Edwards have nothing to offer.

03 Apr 08 - 07:55 PM (#2305992)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Jack the Sailor

I just looked it up, the threshold for delegates in 15 % so he will have no delegates to offer.

03 Apr 08 - 08:48 PM (#2306022)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Genie

What happens then to the delegates not won by either Obama or Clinton?   Are they free agents?

As for Obama trailing in the match-up polls, remember that Bush 41 trailed Michael Dukakis the polls by 17% in August of 1988.   : )

Obama has yet to do any serious campaigning in Florida.

03 Apr 08 - 08:50 PM (#2306025)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

The polls are only relevant because some Dem apparatchiks are suggesting a forumla be devised combining poll numbers and popular vote numbers to determine delegate apportioning.

Still looks purty fucked up to me.

03 Apr 08 - 08:52 PM (#2306026)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Genie

Last I heard, Obama was ahead of Clinton in delegates by about 130. If she gained 105 (half of Florida's 210 delegated) and he gained 70 (33%), how would that put her ahead of him?

03 Apr 08 - 09:01 PM (#2306030)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Charley Noble

Genie-

I was wondering about that myself but "Gigi" is quite capable of glossing over such things as math. However, your math assumes that all the delegates wouldn't be divided between Clinton and Obama; that's not true if Edwards only captured 14% and the threshold was 15% for delegates.

Charley Noble

03 Apr 08 - 09:04 PM (#2306033)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Bobert

Ummmmmmm, me thinks this announcment might have been a tad premature...

B~

03 Apr 08 - 09:14 PM (#2306040)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Genie

Charley, all I did was take 210, multiply by .5 (105 for Hillary), multiply by .333 (70 for Barack), and not deal with the other 30 delegates. DK who'd get them.   
One might think, even though Edwards and Kucinich did not break the 15% threshhold, that delegates from districts that voted for them might heed their suggestions as to whom to support now.

03 Apr 08 - 09:19 PM (#2306044)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Genie

Of course, as you seem to suggest, Charley, the other 30 could be divided proportionately based on how Clinton and Obama did in the first primary.

Personally, I think that might be unfair advantage to Clinton. She's the only one who campaigned in the state, isn't she?   (After the candidates agreed not to.) If she got only 50% in spite of that advantage, why would one think it fair to give her a greater of the votes that were cast for someone other than her?   I think it would make more sense to split those other delegates down the middle. (Not the delegates themselves -- OWW! -- just their votes.)

03 Apr 08 - 09:44 PM (#2306055)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Doesn't look like anything will be final until the Convention. And then-

03 Apr 08 - 10:01 PM (#2306066)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

"What happens then to the delegates not won by either Obama or Clinton?   Are they free agents?"

They would be apportioned roughly 60-40
I read somewhere a Florida Democratic poobah saying that if the result were to stand it would be, worse case for Obama, a 38 delegate spread in favor of Obama.

03 Apr 08 - 10:15 PM (#2306076)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Ron Davies

"Doesn't look like anything will be final until the Convention".

As usual, far off the mark. And somehow, I detect a whiff of the usual--unjustified--schadenfreude.

Dean has said he wants it settled by 1 July. And when Hillary's campaign collapses as a result of the revelations of the Clintons' taxes, that should be eminently possible. As Bobert and I have pointed out, it's not just the stratospheric income of the Clintons, it's the seamy political deals--including with foreigners--which the general electorate--especially blue collar "Hillary" voters-- might possibly not like. They don't have to vote for Obama--just stay home.   She already has problems with veterans who know what sniper fire really is.   And it's patently obvious her claim to have been always against NAFTA is hogwash--uh, sorry, another "misstatement".

All it will take is her likely less than 15% win in PA, loss in NC, and split in IN.   The superdelegate trickle to Obama becomes a flood. ( Hillary delegates like Corzine are already stating they reserve the right to change.)   

Hillary's donations dry up. ( It's painfully obvious she never planned on this situation--in fact never planned at all beyond Super Tuesday.)   Her campaign is the biggest organization she's ever run--and it's a disaster--ably assisted in that direction by her dear spouse.

And Dean gets his wish.

The agony about FL and MI may well prove totally pointless. Of course delegations from FL and MI will be seated. There never was any doubt. If nothing else, they could be seated 50/50 between Clinton and Obama. But there's a good chance Obama will be able to generously give Hillary all the delegates she "won" in those two state primaries she agreed would not count--and still handily beat her in delegate count.

03 Apr 08 - 10:26 PM (#2306085)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

A pat scenario. We shall see.

03 Apr 08 - 10:52 PM (#2306098)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Bill D

Well...I sure didn't hear anything about Florida being seated...and none of my news feeds say anything like that.

Could it 'possibly' be that GG heard a wild speculation based on a rumor coming from some out-loud wishful thinking? Maybe? Hmmm?

Gotta give **sources**!!

03 Apr 08 - 11:10 PM (#2306106)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Ron Davies

You're right, Bill. Interestingly enough, GG admitted "the devil is in the details"--i.e. nothing has been settled as of yet. Nor did Dean say it had. Sounds like a bit of wishful thinking on GG's part--and a thread amazingly close to pointless.   As my favorite political analyst, Shania Twain, said: "That don't impress me much".

Wishful thinking and absurdly unjustified schadenfreude--that appears to be the limit of the Hillary partisans' thinking. Facts are unfortunately not exactly on their side.

04 Apr 08 - 01:14 AM (#2306143)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Genie

Ron Davies said, "The agony about FL and MI may well prove totally pointless. ... But there's a good chance Obama will be able to generously give Hillary all the delegates she "won" in those two state primaries she agreed would not count--and still handily beat her in delegate count."

Yup.

Genie

04 Apr 08 - 08:35 AM (#2306357)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

According to the April 3rd issue of the Orlando Sentinel:

The scenarios would affect 185 delegates bound by election results statewide or by congressional district. They do not include 26 unpledged "superdelegates."

Options include seating all of the pledged Florida delegates based on the statewide primary results, which Clinton won with 50 percent of the vote. That would give Clinton a net gain over Obama of 38 delegates.

Another option would give each of the Florida delegates half a vote, based on the statewide tally. That would give Clinton a net gain over Obama of 19 delegates."

04 Apr 08 - 08:43 AM (#2306366)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

Dean held a meeting with Florida's party leaders yesterday, which is why the story made the news.

Of course, if it isn't on cable news, most of the Obamamaniacs here discount it completely.

Attention span issues with reading comprehension, apparently.

04 Apr 08 - 08:49 AM (#2306370)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

And the story that the delegates would be seated, I found on both the AP and UPI wire services under their "Top News" stories.

I cut out the middle men, and read the wires.

04 Apr 08 - 08:49 AM (#2306371)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Charley Noble

Gigi-

"Scenarios" and "options" strikes me as less definitive that your initial post of this thread, and choice of thread title. If you were a member you could PM Joe Opper or one of his moderator clones to correct the thread title.

Well, this was all enjoyable speculation.

Charley Noble

04 Apr 08 - 10:02 AM (#2306426)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

There is no doubt the FL delegation will be seated now, since the meeting w/Dean yesterday. So that makes the thread title EXACTLY reflect the news story I started the thread about.

The story is good news for Clinton. While "how good is it for Clinton" is still speculative (my opening post to the thread included the cautionary statement "devil is in the details"), the fact that Dean's announcement is good news for Clinton, is not.

Of course, this forum is dominated by hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil mentality when it comes to Obama supporters. So there is no surprise in this thread--so they counter the announcement of good news for Clinton by making ad hominem attacks upon the messenger, whom they perceive as pro-Clinton.

Again, I am not pro-Clinton. I just enjoy the political banter, and speak my mind.

However, since I prefer to support my opinions with incontrovertible facts rather than conjecture about the facts, people get pissed off at me because they can't "prove" me wrong. C'est la guerre, eh?

04 Apr 08 - 10:40 AM (#2306452)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Bill D

"...no doubt the FL delegation will be seated now...."

Oh? *I* still doubt it. And none of my news feeds have the same 'lack of doubt'....*grin*...

I suppose that if it does happen, you can crow, GG...but......

04 Apr 08 - 10:51 AM (#2306460)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Genie

Well, since one option still on the table is to give each Florida delegate half a vote - like the Republicans did - I'd say that would not equate to "seating the Floriday delegation." At least not "fully seating" them. If that happened it would be tantamount to seating half of them.


[[Date: 04 Apr 08 - 08:35 AM

According to the April 3rd issue of the Orlando Sentinel:
...

Options include seating all of the pledged Florida delegates based on the statewide primary results, which Clinton won with 50 percent of the vote. That would give Clinton a net gain over Obama of 38 delegates.

Another option would give each of the Florida delegates half a vote, based on the statewide tally. That would give Clinton a net gain over Obama of 19 delegates."]]


Either way, Obama would still be ahead in the delegate count by close to 100.

But I think option #2 is fairer, if the party's rules are ever to be taken seriously.

Bear in mind that it was not just Obama hurt by Florida's moving their primary up.   John Edwards very likely could have racked up more delegates -- enough to actuall claim them -- had that primary been held on Feb. 5 as originally scheduled and all the candidates had a chance to campaign there.

04 Apr 08 - 11:05 AM (#2306471)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: JohnInKansas

Are we sure this news didn't come from an Onion report?

So far as I can find, Yahoo News, MSNBC News, Washington Post, New York Times, BBC, the Democratic National Convention website and the Republican National Convention website - all are completely oblivious to a decision having been made.

While there's nothing unexpected about the claim, has anyone got a link?

John

04 Apr 08 - 11:10 AM (#2306481)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

The only News, yesterday that I saw was Dean announcing that he was confident that it would be worked out and that the DNC had booked hotel rooms for the Florida and Michigan Delegations. There was never any doubt in my mind that there would be delegates from those great states at the convention, so I did not consider it news and promptly forgot where I read it. I don't think that GG is making things up. But the headline of this thread is either really old news, if it is meant to be news that Florida and Michigan would not be excluded or way premature if it is meant to say the questions of which delegates will be seated and who they will represent, is settled.

04 Apr 08 - 11:56 AM (#2306525)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Bobert

I'll repeat: "Me thinks thei announmcment maybe premature"...

But if it's the real deal then it's the real deal and even tho I support Obama, hey, whatever??? It *is* Florida and it *is* the Democratic dysfunction party so anything can happen here...

B;~)

04 Apr 08 - 11:59 AM (#2306530)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: JohnInKansas

JtS -

Sort of what I assumed. I have heard "opinions" as to what the decisions will be, but there's still lots of latitude in the details - probably even after the seat-or-not-seat decision is made.

Local articles on the DNC committee that's largely responsible for authenticating delegates have been numerous, due to one of our state/local politicos having served on that committee several years back (and might be expected to be called back to it). The articles give some insight(?) - make that (??????) - into how the committee might work, that may not be too widely understood. Not even speculation even there on what the final decisions will be or what impact the different options may have.

Whatever happens, and whenever the formal announcement comes, there's bound to be an argument. (They are Democrats, after all.)

John

04 Apr 08 - 05:54 PM (#2306769)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

Gee, I'm really sorry no one contributing to this thread can find any information whatsoever on the Internet about this story.

Apparently, you all suck at providing reliable sources when doing your own research, instead of relying on favorite blogs and Mudcat to provide your lazy asses with the link.

I am happy to provide tutoring services for a fee.

However, until then, just go to "Google News" and type "Florida delegation" in the search bar. Click on the "Search News" button next to the search bar.

Click and read any of the:

"Results 1 - 10 of about 3,289 for florida delegation. (0.15 seconds)"

For instance, the first article that comes up in my browser is from the Atlanta Journal Constitution:

"Democratic party chief agrees to seat Florida delegation
It's unclear how many delegates can go to convention or how they can vote

By Tamara Lytle
MCT
Published on: 04/03/08

WASHINGTON — Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean said for the first time Wednesday that Florida's delegation will be seated at the party's presidential nominating convention in Denver and will even have some hotel rooms to sleep in.

What he didn't say was how many of the state's 211 delegates would be invited — and whom they'd be allowed to vote for.

After a morning meeting with a Florida delegation, including state party chair Karen Thurman, Dean said that many details still need to be worked out and approved by presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama.

But the Floridians said the chairman's promise to work to seat Florida's delegation was a breakthrough in the impasse that has left state Democrats wondering if they would be left out of the August convention.

"We are committed to do everything in our power to seat the Florida delegation," Dean said after his meeting with Florida's nine House Democrats, U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson and Thurman. It was a marked change of tone for Dean, who has been critical of Florida and Michigan — also stripped of its delegates — for breaking party rules by moving up their primaries.

The DNC took away all 211 of Florida's delegates. Clinton won the Jan. 29 primary by 17 percentage points and has pushed for using those results to allot the 185 delegates that were supposed to be awarded by the vote.

That would give her 38 more than Obama, with another 13 pledged to former candidate John Edwards. She currently trails Obama by about 150 delegates nationally.

By contrast, the Obama camp has proposed divvying the Florida delegates up evenly since the Jan. 29 vote was not legal under party rules.

The meeting with Dean comes after the state party rejected a proposal to re-do the primary with a mail-in ballot. Subsequent proposals by Nelson and others to allow seating of half the Florida delegation also have gone nowhere.

For his part, Dean didn't say how many delegates would be invited to Denver, or how they'd be divided up. Instead, a joint statement released by Dean and the Floridians said, "We all agree that whatever the solution, it must have the support of both campaigns."

Spokesmen for both campaigns reacted cautiously.

"You really have to take a look at the particulars," said Clinton spokesman Phil Singer. "The devil is always in the details."

Obama spokesman Robert Gibbs said Dean's statement was "consistent with what we'd like" but how to split up the delegates still needs to be worked out.

Florida lawmakers were upbeat. U.S. Rep. Ron Klein hailed "a breakthrough to have the chairman say he's going to do everything he can."

Debbie Wasserman Schultz, a Clinton supporter, said Dean's tone was much less combative than it had been. "He's finally realized it's counterproductive to our goal of electing the next president of the United States to continue to insist on punishing the state," she said.

The joint statement declared: "While there may be differences of opinion in how we get there, we are all committed to ensuring that Florida's delegation is seated in Denver."

Florida is the largest of the nation's swing states, and both parties will target it in the November election. A Quinnipiac University Poll released Wednesday showed Clinton would edge presumptive Republican nominee John McCain by 44 percent to 42 percent, if the race were held today. McCain would beat Obama 46 percent to 37 percent, according to the poll.

Clinton is ahead of Obama by 9 percentage points in the next large primary contest — Pennsylvania, according to the Quinnipiac Poll.

Wasserman Schultz said no Florida deal is likely to be hammered out until after that April 22 Pennsylvania vote. But in the meantime, Florida Democrats at least know they will have a place to sleep in Denver, according to Dean. Previously, the DNC has said there was no room at the inn for Florida.

"You would not believe the importance of having a hotel," said Rep. Corrine Brown, D-Fla."

04 Apr 08 - 06:18 PM (#2306786)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

GG

Gee I am sorry that you didn't back your own words in the first place. If you had done that search before you posted, you might have written a clearer beginning post. It takes a profound lack of self awareness to get snotty with other people for not doing your work for you. Are you related to George Bush?

and by the way.

Whether or not and how to count their votes were and still are at issue.
It was always assumed that they would be seated.
It may be news that Howard Dean has said it for the first time.
But it is news in that same way him saying the sun will come up tomorrow would be news.
It may be considered news, I guess, that they booked hotel rooms. In the same way the booking hotels for the North Carolina delegation would be news.
Like I said, I read it and decided it wasn't news. I will stand by that.


---------

This quote below was dumb and dishonest of you. I did the search and found one link to the Tamara Lytle article.

>>>
Click and read any of the:

"Results 1 - 10 of about 3,289 for florida delegation. (0.15 seconds)"

For instance, the first article that comes up in my browser is from the Atlanta Journal Constitution:<<

And I do, believe the importance of having a hotel. I just do not think that booking one is news.

04 Apr 08 - 08:35 PM (#2306955)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Ron Davies

Gee, Janet, sorry, Jack is completely right.    You can't imagine how it pains me to have to tell you you have contributed precisely nothing to the store of knowledge on the seating of the FL and MI delegations. You may want to hold on to your current position rather than expecting one as a political analyst. Unless of course your target audience is Bush supporters, Hillary supporters, or others with a similar reading problem.

But you get points for excellent obfuscation technique--there might be a place for you in the waning days of the Bush regime, on their "team".   And your propaganda style is classic "big lie"--insist your information is correct without giving any evidence---over and over. Except that your approach is actually "little lie"--your subject is rather trivial.

But your entertainment value is high--it's always fun to watch you make a fool of yourself--with such grace and earnestness at the same time.

Looking forward to your next revelation.

04 Apr 08 - 08:45 PM (#2306972)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

And Ron, I'm delighted for you that the view that far up your ass is so titillating.

Thanks for sharing, though. :)

04 Apr 08 - 09:21 PM (#2307021)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Bobert

Well, Ron, you didn't have to wait long... Check out GG's post on my Dr King thread...

Talk about making a "fool" of one's self...

B~

04 Apr 08 - 09:29 PM (#2307027)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: JohnInKansas

The lovely cut-n-paste above includes:

the chairman's promise to work to seat Florida's delegation was a breakthrough

That is, I suppose, something worth noting, but hardly represents a "decision point" and isn't much of a surprise.

The DNC has a fairly specifically defined structure assigning the validation of delegates to a committee that will have to make the final decisions. The DNC Chairman can make his own recommendations, and can negotiate with others in advance of the Convention to present a "joint recommendation" that likely will have some considerable influence; but the final decisions probably remain - and will remain until the Convention is convened - with a committee whose membership hasn't even been announced (or even much speculated on).

The party's rules of order place some extremely "inconvenient" restrictions on how things are to be done, separately in the two cases in question; and these may inhibit "doing what's right" - for almost any opinion on righteousness, truth, purity of thought, legality, justice, and all the other cliches available for use by the media.

I'm sure the media will use them all before the arguments subside, and before much of anything is settled.

I appreciate the intent to inform us, and the information is noted. Perhaps it shook the earth elsewhere, but I didn't feel even a wiggle in my neighborhood. I presume that appropriate warnings will be forthcoming for coastal areas in case of a possible tsunami?

John

04 Apr 08 - 09:41 PM (#2307038)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,guest

Of course you are so right there, John.

Threads like "Is McCain 'McNasty Temper' - short fuse?" and "Hillary Jokes About Sniper Fire" and " O'Bama sign seen today" provide far more serious insights into the candidates and the process than this story does.

Thanks for pointing out the error of my ways.

04 Apr 08 - 09:47 PM (#2307044)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Here is a link to the Tamara Lytle report, mentioned by G-G, Atlanta Journal Constitution:
Agrees to seat delegation

A good report. The screamer had to back down, but how far and how he twists to make it look good for his Committee remains to be seen.
He may have given the state to McCain; resentment remains high among the 1.7 million who voted in the Democratic primary, and salvage operations are underway.

A possible solution was proposed by DNC committee member Ausman, which would allow half of FLA's delegates to be seated. Tamara Lytle reported this plan (Orlando Sentinal and other papers) a week before the report she wrote in the previously linked article.

Democratic Activists

04 Apr 08 - 09:47 PM (#2307046)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

Yeah, I'm pretty damn evil for not climbing on the King bandwagon every time it runs by the house.

Which is quite often these days.

I also confess to having never even opened the thread titled 'Multiculturalism', and it just hit 200 posts.

I'd have barged in and claimed 200, but somebody beat me to it.

One thing I'll conjecture about MLK. If he saw himself as others see him today, I'm quite sure he'd never speak to them again.

04 Apr 08 - 10:40 PM (#2307094)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Genie

For the record, Howard Dean is no more a "screamer" than any of us would be when addressing a screaming crowd and trying to be heard over it.

That doctored video thing was debunked by CBS (IIRC) back in 2004, showing that the noise of the crowd had been filtered out by using a mic that picked up only Dean's voice.
You'd sound like a raging maniac too, if you were cheering your team at the Superbowl and someone video'd it removing all sounds but your "screams."    :)
Whatever else you think of Howard Dean, that "screamer" thing is a bum rap.

04 Apr 08 - 10:47 PM (#2307098)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Genie

[[[[[Florida is the largest of the nation's swing states, and both parties will target it in the November election. A Quinnipiac University Poll released Wednesday showed Clinton would edge presumptive Republican nominee John McCain by 44 percent to 42 percent, if the race were held today. McCain would beat Obama 46 percent to 37 percent, according to the poll.]]]]]

Let's not forget that McCain and Obama had from the start, and to some extent still have, a huge advantage over Obama in name recognition.   (Who had heard of Jimmy Carter back in March of 1976?   Or how well was Bill Clinton known this early in 1992?)   Obama does extremely well when he campaigns in a state, city, or county, and he hasn't done that in Florida yet.
Poll results are notorious for shifting drasticly from week to week depending on the news, etc.    And if the Dems were going to go by early polls like this to pick their nominee, they'd have gotten behind John Edwards back in January, because the most trusted polls were showing Edwards beating ANY Republican and by a wider margin than any of the other Democratics would. Polls also show that right now Hillary Clinton's negatives are higher than her positives - not a good starting point for the general election, especially when Dems probably need a wide margin to keep the election from being stolen in some states.

Not saying polling doesn't give useful info, just that you have to analyze the results carefully in the light of other kinds of info.

04 Apr 08 - 10:53 PM (#2307102)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

"Is McCain 'McNasty Temper' - short fuse?" and "Hillary Jokes About Sniper Fire" and " O'Bama sign seen today"

The above are accurate reflections of the the purpose of the person the thread and are backed up in the first post.

This is what you wrote.

>>Subject: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 03 Apr 08 - 03:09 PM

Just heard on the news. The devil is in the details, of course.

This is the best news Clinton has had since before Super Tuesday.<<


This one should be titled, GG hears something on the radio and pulls conclusion out of her butt. Now, after you have read the report, where is the good news for Clinton?
Get over yourself and have some respect for the people you expect to read what you write. Have a bit of self respect and google your own topics.

04 Apr 08 - 11:42 PM (#2307122)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Four of us were sitting around watching when Dean made that idiotic losing speech about going here and there and every place, and then yelled that YEAH!!
Other open-mouthed, we agreed that we would hate to see that screamer win any office, even in Lower Slobovia. He will always be known for that.

04 Apr 08 - 11:47 PM (#2307125)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Ron Davies

Janet:


QED

05 Apr 08 - 12:03 AM (#2307138)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Ron Davies

And Q, you have found the same article Janet had. Brilliant. Too bad it tells us nothing we didn't already know. And as for the other-- anybody can speculate on possible scenarios for seating FL and MI. But supposedly this thread had wonderful new developments to report.

But I suppose Hillary supporters do seem to have that problem about reading---and tend to lapse into vulgarisms, smears, and thinly veiled racism, rather than thinking. It doesn't actually speak well for your candidate -- (yes I know you're Canadian, but your sympathies are not really well camouflaged.)

Not that I would want to suggest racist tendencies in another poster--but I'm still waiting for a positive statement about Obama from you, since you said you don't dislike him. And "clean and articulate" is taken--by Doug R.

05 Apr 08 - 12:54 AM (#2307151)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

>>
From: Q
Date: 04 Apr 08 - 11:42 PM

Four of us were sitting around watching when Dean made that idiotic losing speech about going here and there and every place, and then yelled that YEAH!!
Other open-mouthed, we agreed that we would hate to see that screamer win any office, even in Lower Slobovia. He will always be known for that.<<

I know him as the Chairman of the DNC, a former governor of the great state of Vermont and as a medical doctor. I forgot about the "scream" until you brought it up.

But I'll tell you this I wish he'd defeated Kerry and then defeated Bush as President. One little scream doesn't seem so bad in hindsight.

05 Apr 08 - 01:30 AM (#2307156)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Genie

Q,
I've seen the undoctored video of McCain "screaming" with the crowd, and he didn't come off as the least bit unstable, out of control, or irrational.   

Of course, if you dislike him for other reasons ...

I just cannot imagine someone who otherwise admired Howard Dean and shared his political views abandoning their support for him because of a single incident like that - even if he HAD been the only one yelling.   Just not that big a deal.

05 Apr 08 - 07:48 AM (#2307284)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

Ah, so now the Obamamaniacs are psychic? And knew the FL Democratic delegates would be seated before the meeting between Dean and Florida Dem party leaders even took place, and any announcement of it was made?

Damn, your propaganda and smear powers are astounding!

05 Apr 08 - 07:58 AM (#2307289)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Ron Davies

Janet--

Absolutely. Obama supporters are psychic. And therefore could think clearly enough to understand that some arrangement would eventually be made to seat both FL and MI delegates at the convention. Which is all your wonderful research has revealed.

Too bad this rather elementary logic appears to be far beyond your ability.

Too bad--but, somehow, not surprising.

But just imagine, all you have to do is actually think before you hit send, and you might even make sense.

Try it--you might be surprised how rewarding it is.



But perhaps you'd rather not. That's OK. Your entertainment value is actually higher the way you are now.

05 Apr 08 - 09:02 AM (#2307338)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

Ron, thanks for proving the maxim that there is nothing worse than aggressive stupidity for us.

05 Apr 08 - 09:08 AM (#2307341)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Ron Davies

Gee, Janet, I wouldn't think you'd need any proof of aggressive stupidity other than looking in the mirror.

And we're still waiting for the wonderful revelations you must have on the seating of the FL and MI delegations. That's after all why you started the thread, right? Looks like we may have a long wait.

But, as I said, you're still a lot of fun regardless.

Don't ever change.

05 Apr 08 - 09:17 AM (#2307352)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

And congratulations on mastering the "I know you are, but what am I" retort.

05 Apr 08 - 09:19 AM (#2307355)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Bobert

Yo, GG...

My dad once told me that the world's biggest fool woou8ldjn't be known until he/ehe opened his/her mouth...

Yer comment on not climbing on Fr. King's bandwagon remiinded me of my dad's words...

It's okay not to jump on the bandwagon... Really... Just let it go by... No reason to piss on it...

As fir Dean??? Apparently none of the people who parrot "The Scream" PR crap have paid much attention to many of George Bush's campaign speeches before the '06 elections... Talk about a screamer!?!?!?... Make Dean sound like a deft-mute... lol...

As for the purposes of this thread, I'll repeat for the 3rd time, "Me thinks the announcement a tad premature"...

B;~)

05 Apr 08 - 09:26 AM (#2307360)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

Mudcat readers well know how repetitive you are, Bobert, even without you reminding us.

05 Apr 08 - 09:33 AM (#2307365)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Bobert

"Before you accuse me, take a look at yourself"...

You are "projecting", GG...

B~

05 Apr 08 - 09:37 AM (#2307368)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

Thanks, I hope everyone can hear me at the back of the room.

05 Apr 08 - 09:41 AM (#2307372)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Jack the Sailor

Now that we can hear you, miss analyst extraordinary, are you ready to tell us what the good news for Hillary was?

05 Apr 08 - 09:49 AM (#2307379)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

Jack, it is clear you have bitten off more than you can chew.

So chew and swallow it, and stop spitting all over the rest of us, please.

05 Apr 08 - 10:02 AM (#2307393)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Ron Davies

Gee, Janet, it's too bad your only answers seem to be along the lines of 3rd grade taunts. While we manfully (so sorry about the "sexist" language) are trying to get you to back up your assertions that you have some news about the FL delegation. One might even think that you did not know what you were talking about, and could not yourself figure out what the article you quoted was saying when you started this thread,   a thread which of course claims that your news about FL was the best for Hillary in a long time. But I'm sure that's not the case.

Having the " milk of human kindness by the quart in every vein", I will just assume you're still researching the issue, and no doubt will soon come up with some actual new information.

And I'm not the only one waiting.

Perhaps you'll eventually grow tired of feeble japes and actually provide some reason for having started the thread.

05 Apr 08 - 10:07 AM (#2307397)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Ron Davies

Some reason other than entertaining us, which I assure you we do appreciate.

Have fun, I won't be able to wait for you to provide your actual information--as opposed to telling us that the FL and MI delegations will be seated at the convention, which as Jack has pointed out, bears an amazing resemblance to the bold prediction that the sun will come up tomorrow morning.

05 Apr 08 - 10:11 AM (#2307400)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Riginslinger

Ron - The reason for starting the thread is fairly obvious. As Oboma-mania begins to wear off, people are beginning to realize they'd better come up with a candidate who could beat John McCain in the fall. Seating the Florida delegation is simply a step in the right direction.

05 Apr 08 - 10:14 AM (#2307403)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Bobert

That is doubtfull, Ron... People don't change, they get more so... I'm sure that GG has an endless supply of venom...

In this thread alone she has trashed Obama, everyone who might support Obama, Howard Dean and even in a back-handed way, Martin Luther King...

GG ain't gonna wear down... Maybe marginalize his/herself much the way that Martin Gibson did, but wear down, no...

"Better to burn out...
...then to fade away..."

B~

05 Apr 08 - 11:05 AM (#2307443)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

>>From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 09:49 AM

Jack, it is clear you have bitten off more than you can chew.
So chew and swallow it, and stop spitting all over the rest of us, please.<<<

A cowardly and unfunny refusal to answer a straightforward question. That's OK, I can answer it for you. The "announcement" you heard was not good news for Hillary at all. You just pulled that little assumption out of your ass, which in some ways must be rather bovine, because it it apparently contains a near infinite supply of Bull Shit.

05 Apr 08 - 11:11 AM (#2307447)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

Nice to see that all of you are being so stridently held to the Mudcat standard of "no personal attacks".

I've been playing with quotations pages all morning, and I discovered a great one by the late, great Carl Sagan. It seems quite apropos regarding people who are so driven to dominate the political threads for "their" candidate, "their" party, or "their" ideological bent (read: 'liberal'). He said:

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. The bamboozle has captured us. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back."

05 Apr 08 - 11:13 AM (#2307449)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Charley Noble

I agree that Gigi was making another attempt to "play" folks at Mudcat. She does have some troll characteristics, very evident in this thread.

At other times she really comes up with interesting comments, news, and conclusions.

I have to wonder how much effort should be spent feeding this flame?

Charley Noble

05 Apr 08 - 11:20 AM (#2307456)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

Calling you a bullshitter is a personal attack you accusing me of this "people who are so driven to dominate the political threads for "their" candidate, "their" party, or "their" ideological bent (read: 'liberal')." isn't?

Nice try Ms. Hypocrite.

05 Apr 08 - 11:36 AM (#2307476)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

Charley, that people here chose to make a mountain over a news story I commented upon but they didn't like hearing about, doesn't mean I am responsible for their behavior. It is their choice how to respond to my starting the thread, not mine.

I still maintain the Florida delegation being seated is both newsworthy and good news for Clinton. If people disagree with it, that's fine. But to say there was never any news reports of the meeting between Dean and FL party leaders--what would you call that? Saying that "Obama would still be ahead" is factually wrong. So, what would you say about the posters who claimed that?

As to your remark that I am "playing" you--perhaps that is how Obama's supporters see it. However, in the political threads in a presidential election year, it is a pretty lame claim to say that starting a new thread based upon a news story of the day is trolling. That can only mean that EVERYONE starting such threads is trolling.

I don't necessarily disagree with that statement, especially as I look down the list of current BS threads about the US horse race.

As I have noted before, the Clinton supporters here aren't terribly vocal or visible in this forum. Why?

I think it is because of the way posters like Ron Davies and Jack the Sailor are behaving. Not everyone cares to be verbally assaulted for expressing their political opinions.

I hope you can see the differences, and that you aren't blinded by political loyalty to your candidate, and your opinion of your candidate.

Because otherwise, you seem like a pretty reasonable guy.

05 Apr 08 - 11:37 AM (#2307478)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

And Charley, the reaction to the news I posted here is identical to the reaction I received when I posted the news that Ralph Nader announced his candidacy on Meet the Press.

So please understand, this isn't just a Clinton/Obama thing.

05 Apr 08 - 11:51 AM (#2307490)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Bill D

my gracious! The things that go on after I go to bed!

(And some seem to have gotten up early, just to continue saying nothing)

05 Apr 08 - 11:56 AM (#2307492)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

Come on BillD! I may have said nothing, but I quoted Carl Sagan doing it!

05 Apr 08 - 11:58 AM (#2307493)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

Liar, Liar, Pants on fire.

>>
GUEST,Guest
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 11:36 AM

Charley, that people here chose to make a mountain over a news story I commented upon but they didn't like hearing about, doesn't mean I am responsible for their behavior. It is their choice how to respond to my starting the thread, not mine.<<

Its your choice to ridicule and attack people. No one is holding a gun to your head and saying "be an ass."

>>I still maintain the Florida delegation being seated is both newsworthy and good news for Clinton. <<
You refuse to say how it is good news for Clinton. You refuse to do this because you cannot.

>>If people disagree with it, that's fine. But to say there was never any news reports of the meeting between Dean and FL party leaders--what would you call that? <<
I would call that pretty bad, But I didn't say that and if someone else did I missed it.

>>Saying that "Obama would still be ahead" is factually wrong.<<
You can't you do basic math? If they count every Florida vote Hillary nets 38 delegates. Obama is ahead by at least 110 delegates.

110 minus 38 equals 72.

He would be ahead by seventy two votes.

>>So, what would you say about the posters who claimed that?<<

He might say that they can do math and that you cannot.

>>As to your remark that I am "playing" you--perhaps that is how Obama's supporters see it. However, in the political threads in a presidential election year, it is a pretty lame claim to say that starting a new thread based upon a news story of the day is trolling. That can only mean that EVERYONE starting such threads is trolling.

I don't necessarily disagree with that statement, especially as I look down the list of current BS threads about the US horse race.<<

No, in the political threads the people who make things up to agitate people are the trolls.

>>As I have noted before, the Clinton supporters here aren't terribly vocal or visible in this forum. Why?

I think it is because of the way posters like Ron Davies and Jack the Sailor are behaving. Not everyone cares to be verbally assaulted for expressing their political opinions.<<

I do not think that Hillary's supporters, as few as there are very enthusiastic about her chances and few are proud of her behavior so far. But even if you think they are afraid, appointing yourself as their protector isn't doing them or Hillary any favors.   

>>I hope you can see the differences, and that you aren't blinded by political loyalty to your candidate, and your opinion of your candidate.

Because otherwise, you seem like a pretty reasonable guy.<<

You can't even suck up to Charlie without being condescending and doubting his integrity.

05 Apr 08 - 12:41 PM (#2307541)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Charley Noble

Hey, Jack, I'll accept any compliments from Gigi that I can get!

"Because otherwise, you seem like a pretty reasonable guy."

Jealous?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

05 Apr 08 - 12:46 PM (#2307545)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

Yes, I hate to admit.

I am very jealous of you being pretty, Charley.

05 Apr 08 - 12:55 PM (#2307552)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

Nope not jealous, no offense, but as you can imagine, she does not have a ton of credibility. You can take this as a compliment though.

Normally I do not agree with GG's assertions, this one is no exception.

I would not say this "Because otherwise, you seem like a pretty reasonable guy."

I would say. "I have observed that you are reasonable."

05 Apr 08 - 02:24 PM (#2307634)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Genie

Can we please stop with the ad hominems and reach for the good M&Ms?

OK,
Back to topic.

[[[I still maintain the Florida delegation being seated is both newsworthy and good news for Clinton. If people disagree with it, that's fine. ... Saying that "Obama would still be ahead" is factually wrong. So, what would you say about the posters who claimed that?]]

I'd say we're right.   Clinton would reduce Obama's ca. 150 point lead by 38 delegates if Florida were seated an delegates allotted according to the primary results* and she would reduce it by about 28 (don't have the exact figures at my fingertips) if Hillary were given the Michigan delegates she "won" and the Uncommitted votes were counted for Obama.

If those Michigan votes for "Uncommitted" were split evenly between the two - probably overly generous to Hillary, since her name was on the ballot and there was no way for anyone to vote for anyone else except Kucinich - Clinton would still be behind in delegates.

05 Apr 08 - 02:46 PM (#2307658)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

>>Can we please stop with the ad hominems and reach for the good M&Ms?<<

I would it like to see it noted that I am not engaging in the logical fallacy of "ad hominem" I am not attacking guest to diminish her arguments. I am attacking her arguments and tactics and then further going on to say that her arguments and other tactics diminish her credibility.

05 Apr 08 - 02:57 PM (#2307667)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Bobert

Like I might have mentioned, "Me thinks the annoucement is premature"... That is ther crux if this thread... It was started to created on purdy flimsey information... The only motivation IO can come up with is GG's need to get attention and to poke Obama in the eye, yet again... She doesn't pass up an opportunity to poke Obama or anyone who supports him...

This is what thsi thread has boiled down... Not Florida... Florida is nuthin' but a side-bar... Really, until something concrete
comes out of Fl. in regards to some compromise this thread, for all intents and purposes, is really purdy meaningless...

B~

05 Apr 08 - 04:37 PM (#2307757)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Genie

Maybe there haven't been "ad hominems" in the sense of logical fallacy, but there have been plenty of personal attacks that sidetrack the discussion from the facts and analysis thereof.

We'd probably get further if we stopped those, had some good M&Ms, and chilled out. : )

05 Apr 08 - 04:44 PM (#2307766)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Bobert

... You gonna eat the green ones???...

05 Apr 08 - 04:52 PM (#2307775)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

"...something concrete comes out of Florida..." Yes, the first post was misleading.
I hope the outcome will reflect the wishes of the Florida primary voters, but that is not certain. Two or more scenarios seem to be under discussion. The issue may go to the Convention.

Pennsylvania AFL-CIO chief Bill George, a Democratic superdelegate, says he expects the Democrats to go without a nominee to the convention, where he hopes to be "the 2,025th delegate to vote."

Philadelphia Inquirer, April 4, 2008, column by Gar Joseph in Philadelphia Daily News. Printed in Inquirer on line, www.philly.com.

05 Apr 08 - 05:03 PM (#2307785)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Genie

They all taste the same in the dark, Bill. ; D

05 Apr 08 - 05:17 PM (#2307795)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Florida superdelegates elected to national convention- maybe!

"A Party with nowhere to party" Orlando Sentinel, Apr. 5, 2008, Aaron Deslatte.

"Florida Democrats elected 27 of their "leadership delegates" to the national convention Saturday, even though there's still no sign of whether they'll be seated- or even have hotel rooms in Denver."

"DNC Chairman Howard Dean said this week Florida would be represented at the nominating convention but offered no clue how he planned to bridge the divide between the two warring candidates."

Of the pack..., 3 are not committed (including the Senate and House leaders), 14 would go committed to Hillary Clinton and 10 for Barack Obama.
The Orlando mayor is pledged to Clinton. The names and pledged support of all the superdelegates is available at the Orlando Sentinel website.
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_politics/2008/04/a-party-with-no.html

06 Apr 08 - 08:08 AM (#2308167)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Ron Davies

"newsworthy", "a breakthrough"

Sorry, those adjectives--to allegedly describe the opening post of this thread-- would only apply if people thought Howard Dean was a complete idiot who does not realize the importance of seating the FL and MI delegations. It seems that Q and Janet are among those less than charitable souls who thought there was any chance Dean would not make sure the FL and MI delegations are seated at the convention.

It's patently obvious to me--and many others--that despite the fond hopes of many Mudcatters, Dean would have been a disaster as the Democratic 2004 candidate. And it has nothing to do with "screaming"--which is an absurd overstatement of what happened in the incident which turned out to knock Dean out of contention.   Look, I've said this before--and nobody has ever come up with a counterargument---the #1 issue in the 2004 election was "national security". There is no way Dean would have done any better with the electorate than a true military hero--which Kerry was.

However, this has precisely nothing to do with this thread.

The main point to keep in mind is that, despite not being the best choice in 2004, Dean is no fool. He has a tough row to hoe this year in his current position. But anybody with any sense knows the FL and MI delegations must be seated at the convention. And Dean has plenty of sense.

For the n'th time, it was never in doubt some arrangement would be made to seat the FL and MI delegations.

No information provided by Janet, Q, or any other poster has provided any facts beyond this conclusion, obvious to all thinking beings, emphatically including Howard Dean.

So this thread title does nothing but state the blazingly obvious, as Jack, Bobert, I and others, have pointed out.



I'm not about to get into a fight with Janet, though it appears to be her dearest wish. John McCain--who is not McWar, by the way--put it best in a comment about his competition with Romney. "Never get into a fight with a pig--you both get dirty and the pig likes it".

It is still likely, as I pointed out earlier, that Obama will be able to generously give Hillary all the delegates she "won" in the MI and FL primaries she agreed would not count--until she needed those delegates desperately. And he will still beat her handily in delegate count.




You never know where your issues will come from. But even though it appears the Clintons' taxes may not be the deciding factor in the contest between Hillary and Obama, she has just handed him a far better weapon in Mark Penn's visit to Columbia to advocate for a treaty she herself is supposedly strongly against.

The irony is this issue--saying one thing, while your own staff undercuts your position-- is one of the main factors which caused her win in OH. Exactly the same issue is in play in PA--with the shoe on the other foot.

In fact this plays right into Obama's strongest argument--judgment over "experience"---experience which in Hillary's case has already been proven a house of cards. It is clear, Obama can argue, that Hillary has no judgment--this has been proven not only by her blatantly political vote to authorize Bush to use force against Iraq, but by her spectacularly bad judgment in selecting a man to run her campaign who is actually working to defeat one of her main positions--necessity to have trade agreements fair to US workers.

Penn admits the visit to Columbia was bad judgment on his part. That's putting it mildly.

Obama supporters can also pointedly ask--over and over-- why the firm headed by Hillary's chosen campaign spokesman--Penn--is also representing John McCain.

If this issue has legs--and it should--it could easily hold Hillary to less than a 15 to 20% win in PA.   And without a win of that magnitude, the pressure on superdelegates to go with Obama will increase markedly.

And Dean is only looking for a way to end this contest--with Obama as the nominee.

No fool, he is very aware of the opportunity Obama presents--to dramatically increase the rolls of Democratic voters--especially with more young and black voters. Hispanic voters will see that Obama's positions are at least as much in their favor as Hillary's.   Older women voters, in addition to often being far more against the Iraq war than Hillary is, see the #1 issue, as I've noted before, as preventing a Republican from naming any more Supreme Court justices. So despite what they may say now, they will support the Democratic nominee--whoever that person is.

And Dean is also aware of the danger of picking Hillary as the nominee. The enthusiasm of the Obama legions will emphatically not transfer to Hillary. Just being willing to vote is not the deciding factor in a campaign. The gritty work of actually getting out the vote needs foot soldiers--provided in 2004 to Bush by the "Religious Right"--and now available-- in unheard-of quantity--to the Democrats with Obama supporters--including amazing numbers of independents--and even some Republicans--especially anybody against the Iraq war.

Far from offering anything comparable, Hillary has a 48% negative rating--virtually half the country.    And she will bring the Republicans together--against her--like nothing else can.

If anybody cares to debate any of the above--without vulgar attacks on anybody--I'd be happy to oblige. Obviously, discussions can get heated, but while questioning somebody's logic, or even sense, we should be able to stay out of the gutter. Hope it's not too much to ask.

06 Apr 08 - 11:36 AM (#2308267)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Genie

Do I want to dispute this, Ron?
[[[And Dean is only looking for a way to end this contest--with Obama as the nominee.

No fool, he is very aware of the opportunity Obama presents--to dramatically increase the rolls of Democratic voters--especially with more young and black voters. Hispanic voters will see that Obama's positions are at least as much in their favor as Hillary's.   Older women voters, in addition to often being far more against the Iraq war than Hillary is, see the #1 issue, as I've noted before, as preventing a Republican from naming any more Supreme Court justices. So despite what they may say now, they will support the Democratic nominee--whoever that person is.

And Dean is also aware of the danger of picking Hillary as the nominee. The enthusiasm of the Obama legions will emphatically not transfer to Hillary. Just being willing to vote is not the deciding factor in a campaign. The gritty work of actually getting out the vote needs foot soldiers--provided in 2004 to Bush by the "Religious Right"--and now available-- in unheard-of quantity--to the Democrats with Obama supporters--including amazing numbers of independents--and even some Republicans--especially anybody against the Iraq war.

Far from offering anything comparable, Hillary has a 48% negative rating--virtually half the country.    And she will bring the Republicans together--against her--like nothing else can.

If anybody cares to debate any of the above--without vulgar attacks on anybody--I'd be happy to oblige. Obviously, discussions can get heated, but while questioning somebody's logic, or even sense, we should be able to stay out of the gutter. Hope it's not too much to ask.]]]

Hardly.

I think you've spelled out clearly and concisely why Obama NEEDS to be the Democrats' noninee if they hope to prevail in November and why he will be.

As for winning in the general, the Dems, for once, have to force the big issues -- e.g., the Supreme Court (and lower federal courts) -- into the public consciousness over the noise of the "mainstream media" talking heads.

06 Apr 08 - 12:58 PM (#2308339)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Bee-dubya-ell

Let me preface my comments by stating up front that I'm a Floridian, a Democrat, and an Obama supporter. So here's my two-cents worth:

What none of the news accounts bother to mention when they point out that Hillary Clinton "won" the Florida primary is that the presidential candidate choice was not the only item on the ballot. There was also a proposal to amend the state's constitution to double the size of homeowners' homestead exemptions on their property taxes. That proposal passed overwhelmingly. For many homeowners who happened to also be Democrats, it was the property tax issue issue that got them to the polls, not the presidential primary which they had already been told would be meaningless. What that means is that the entire election was skewed toward homeowners, who tend to be white, older, and middle-class, and away from renters who, proportionally, tend to be poorer, younger, and more likely to be of a minority.

So, we have the white middle class homeowners going to the polls in droves to vote their pocketbooks on the property tax issue, and placing a "meaningless" vote for a presidential candidate while they're at it. Then we have the poorer, younger, darker renters who have no incentive to vote since they don't have a dog in the property tax fight, and have been told their presidential vote won't mean squat. That sounds like a setup that would insure a primary "win" for Senator Clinton to me.

If the Florida delegation is seated and delegates are apportioned according to the outcome of the bogus Florida Democratic primary it will be an utter travesty. No "election" in which potential voters are told that their votes won't count for anything can be considered fair. Turning around and saying, "Gotcha! We're gonna count 'em after all!" is even more ridiculous than saying they wouldn't be counted in the first place.

06 Apr 08 - 01:11 PM (#2308350)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

Interesting post Bee-dubya-ell, I haven't heard it reported that way. You make a lot more sense than the pundits.

06 Apr 08 - 02:09 PM (#2308410)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

Well, it WAS reported that way at the time of the primary, but the pundits (and the posters to this forum who get most of their information from them), never picked up on it.

While I agree in theory w/what you are saying that it would be a travesty, etc etc the reality is, those are the people who actually showed up to vote, so they are the ones who deserve to be seated, according to the way the Democratic party process works.

You see, this is where there is a disconnect. We have tons of enthusiastic Obama supporters who don't understand--or care--how the Democratic party system works. Sure, they are turning up to vote all over the place. Without having educated themselves on how the process works OR the Obama camp educating them on how the process works.

The end result will be, the Democratic party rules, and the Democratic party elites' decision on how to fudge the rules, is what the nation will get, like it or not.

That will alienate--according to Obama's supporters--most all of them who will then refuse to participate in a system they will perceive as rigged against their man...and on, and on, and on.

Same thing happened in the wake of Jesse Jackson's run in 1988, when he came in second place (the same place Clinton finds herself today). All those young, enthusiastic, voters of color and white progressives that piled on the bandwagon for Jesse, stayed home for the following 20 years, split their votes between the parties, or voted for independent and 3rd party candidates like Perot and Nader.

I predict the same thing all over again, even if Obama wins.

06 Apr 08 - 03:51 PM (#2308461)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Bobert

Oh, so now the Obama supporters are a bunch of stupmos who don't undersatnd the rules???

Hmmmmmm??? Given the number of cuacus states where understanding the rules is much more difficult than touching a candidates someone's name on a TV screen I don't buy that, GG...

Additionally, the rules wer out there for state party operatives to know before they set the dates... These folks knew the rules... Okay, maybe the average shmo didn't but the party officials knew the rules... It was even on the news prior to the primaries so it is illogical that these folks were just plain ignorant...

How thios gets solved is anyone's guess but it isn't solved yet... Not do I see it being solved any time soon...

As for folks staying home if Obama wins... Yeah, some will... How many depends on how much grace and class Hillary can muster up in support of the ticket... One thing is for sure and that is that if Obama in the nominee Hillary is going get pressure like she hasn't seen to kiss up because there are so many other Dems that need a unified ticket to ride in on the coat-tails...

As for me and most of the folks I know who support Obama, even if he goes balls-to-the wall should Clinton gwet the nomination, most of us won't vote for her... I just don't see the converse as being true...

As for Dean??? He has and continues to do a great job... His 50 state stategy, his sopending money in smaller precincts, his framing of issues has helped make the Dems competetive... My hat is off to him...

B~

06 Apr 08 - 04:13 PM (#2308469)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

No, it will have to do with whether Obama gets trounced in November, or elected in November.

Either way, Obama's "surge" of new voters will become quickly disillusioned.

That's the way the game is played. The way the cookie crumbles. That's the just way it is--somethings will never change (to quote Bruce Hornsby), and I'm just tellin' it like it is (to quote Howard Cosell).

06 Apr 08 - 07:04 PM (#2308589)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Bobert

I don't disagree with that, GG...

I think that the bar has been set high... And I also know how things work in Washington... But, IMHO, I'd rather be disappointed with Obama in the White House than the other two... At least when he has to tell US the bad news I will believe him... The other two, no...

Face it, the next president is going to have a rough go and there is no panacia for what ails the US... An Obama election won't change the situation on the ground...

B~

06 Apr 08 - 08:32 PM (#2308639)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

>>Well, it WAS reported that way at the time of the primary, <<

I have no doubt that it was in Florida. I am glad that we have members like Bee-dubya-ell who are generous with information.

06 Apr 08 - 08:47 PM (#2308645)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Charley Noble

I really don't agree with Gigi's logic.

The Democratic National Committee set up the rules by why each primary state was to comply. Those were the rules of the game. Michigan and Florida opted to violate the rules. The Presidential candidates all said that they would respect the Democratic National Committee's decision and would not campaign in those states. Now Clinton is trying to change the game plan. Sorry, she is out of line!

I also agree that Florida and Michigan delegates will eventually be seated at the National Convention but not because they will be the deciding votes in this presidential primary. That will be decided by the remaining primaries.

Dream on!

How well Obama will do if elected President is an open question.

But at this point I find him to be the more interesting candidate, and the one who I think can best beat McCain.

Charley Noble

06 Apr 08 - 08:56 PM (#2308652)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Bobert

Agreed, Charley...

GG portrays the Dem party up'n ups in Fl and Mi as stupmos who didn't understand the rules...

That is not the case...

B~

06 Apr 08 - 09:14 PM (#2308668)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

Seriously,

How can the Clintonites claim that she is the best choice to run against McCain after having sqandered all the money, poll leads and good will they have had in this one.

The person who has run the best campaign, who has shown that he can organize the stronger campaign and mobilize voters is the one who is best able to run against campaign.

06 Apr 08 - 09:15 PM (#2308670)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Bee-dubya-ell

It seems to me that the only way to make anything resembling fairness out of this mess is to just let each Florida or Michigan delegate vote however he or she pleases. Forget primaries were even held. The number of delegates is large and diverse enough that the result of such a vote would probably come within a few percentage points of what the allocation would be if the primaries were done over anyway.

06 Apr 08 - 09:48 PM (#2308685)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

A deal to allow delegates from Florida and Michigan to participate at the Democratic National Convention is unlikely before summer, party chief Howard Dean said today (Sunday) on ABC's "This Week."
A solution will have to wait until after the last contests in South Dakota and Montana on June 3, and after the remaining superdelegates have said which candidate they support.
"Dean also has urged the superdelegates- the nearly 800 elected and other Democratic officials who are to vote for whomever they choose- to take a position soon after the voting ends to avoid a convention fight. More than half the superdelegates have said which candidate they will support."

FL Delegation

In a separate talk on CBS, Dean said "Unless there is a dead heat, there's no reason to go to Denver, if the unpledged delegates will make their preferences clear and the voters will make their preferences clear."

It seems that the super delegates are guaranteed seats regardless of how the other delegates from FL and MI are treated.
Dean hopes that agreement will be reached before the Convention, so that there will be a crowning without a fight.

06 Apr 08 - 09:57 PM (#2308690)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

>>It seems to me that the only way to make anything resembling fairness out of this mess is to just let each Florida or Michigan delegate vote however he or she pleases.<<

As I understand it, the campaigns get to pick the delegates. Here in North Carolina, Obama's people will pick their delegates and Hillary's will pick theirs.

Obviously, if that is done in Florida it would be like putting Katherine Harris in charge of deciding whether votes for Gore should be counted.

06 Apr 08 - 11:28 PM (#2308730)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Genie

Bee-dubya-ell said [[[ No "election" in which potential voters are told that their votes won't count for anything can be considered fair. Turning around and saying, "Gotcha! We're gonna count 'em after all!" is even more ridiculous than saying they wouldn't be counted in the first place.]]]
Nice, succinct way of summing up why Hillary's current stance is absurd.

Ms. Clinton just campaigned here in the Portland, OR, area, and I heard her speech on a local radio station. I have to admit that a lot of what she spelled out as her platform and how she would go about dealing with important issues, if elected, was very impressive. I was beginning to regain my admiration for her, both as a stateswoman and as a human being. -- Then she went into how she would make sure that the proud, worthy citizens of Michigan and Florida would not be "disenfranchised" by having those primary election results discounted.   Not one iota of recognition of the kinds of issues Bee-dubya-ell and others have brought up or why COUNTING the results of those flawed primaries would, just as truly, "disenfranchise" as many or more voters.    Hard to get past that kind of disingeniousness and self-serving twisted logic and see her as a real stateswoman with the best interests of her party or the nation at heart.

07 Apr 08 - 08:05 AM (#2308952)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

No, Dean's position is absurd. Clinton didn't throw down the gauntlet when all the hubub started over moving up the primaries, and nor did Obama.

It is Dean's position that created the circumstances the party finds itself in.

The result is, he will either be forced to give in to FL and MI state parties (and thereby yield some of the DNC's national power and authority back to the states), or he will have to disenfranchise the voters who got off their asses and went out and voted despite the clusterfuck the party rules created for them this.

Those are the two choices, and I think it is a given that neither of the two remaining candidates will be pleased with the outcome, because there isn't a happy ending scenario.

Clinton will benefit if they are seated. Enough to win? We don't know at this point, it is too close to call.

But even if Clinton loses the nomination, if those FL and MI delegations aren't seated at the convention and their votes counted in the national party totals, the Democratic nominee, in this case Obama, will have to answer the charges of disenfranchising millions of voters in the general election.

Of course, Obamamaniacs with rose colored glasses haven't been able to figure that out yet, because they are too fearful that the delegations will be seated in a way that benefits Clinton more than Obama.

But then, we have a few folks here whose idolatry of their candidate clouds their intellect, their critical thinking abilities, and gives them an extremely narrow view of the realities of this election year.

C'est la guerre.

07 Apr 08 - 08:13 AM (#2308957)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

Oh, and I meant to also mention that the majority of Obamamaniacs seem to have no loyalty to Democratic party, which makes the FL & MI delegate situation even more difficult.

Because it is a take no prisoners approach that Obama supporters have taken, and they aren't interested AT ALL in what is good for the party, only in what is best for Obama.

Which, IMO, is Obama's greatest flaw too. His blind ambition and hunger for power is way too palpable for my liking.

07 Apr 08 - 09:13 AM (#2309012)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Charley Noble

I'm not sure why these verses are resonating in my head this morning:

Round about the cauldron go;   
In the poison'd entrails throw.   
Toad, that under cold stone   
Days and nights hast thirty one   
Swelter'd venom sleeping got,   
Boil thou first i' the charmed pot.   

    Double, double toil and trouble;
    Fire burn and cauldron bubble.   

Fillet of a fenny snake,   
In the cauldron boil and bake;   
Eye of newt, and toe of frog,   
Wool of bat, and tongue of dog,   
Adder's fork, and blind-worm's sting,   
Lizard's leg, and howlet's wing,   
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.   

    Double, double toil and trouble;   
    Fire burn and cauldron bubble.

I'm gonna take two asperin and review this thread later.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

07 Apr 08 - 01:43 PM (#2309263)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Look for court cases from these states following the election. There will be actions aimed at restoring states' primacy over private clubs such as the DNC, since these states pay for and conduct their primaries, and use them (FL and some others) to append other issues requiring a vote.

Sometime in April the Appeals Court 11th Dist. will rule on a suit from a Florida individual, but I believe that they will rule that the state must bring the suit. In either case, the action will be carried to the Supreme Court. (See other threads- no point in repeating; or look at FL-GA newspaper archives).

07 Apr 08 - 01:55 PM (#2309280)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

There is no doubt the primary system is not as good as it should be. I think that it all starts with the odd practice of putting elected officials in charge of deciding what is fair.

07 Apr 08 - 01:55 PM (#2309282)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

Elected PARTISAN officials.

07 Apr 08 - 06:32 PM (#2309521)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

It ain't rocket science is it, that political parties are partisan in order to get elected?

Why bitch and moan about the nature of the beast?

You either accept it as is, or work to get it changed for next time.

But this time around, the party rules are the party rules. People came out and voted. ANYONE who does that should have their vote count.

People who don't want votes counted because their guy might lose, be they for Obama in 2008 or Dubya in 2000, don't give a shit about the nation or the integrity of the political process of vote counting. They just want their man to win the horse race.

07 Apr 08 - 06:46 PM (#2309531)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

No it is not rocket science that they have a conflict of influence and will bend the rules and do unfair things in favor of their sides, as the Florida legislature did this time. It is not rocket science that the rules should be set up to be fair in the beginning and enforced according to set rules by impartial observers. That is the way MacArthur set it up in Japan, that is the way most ever other industrial democracy does it. That is the what Jimmy Carter's institute monitors in the third world.

Katherine Harris is one of the reasons the world has no respect for George W Bush.

07 Apr 08 - 07:43 PM (#2309605)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Ebbie

"...the reality is, those are the people who actually showed up to vote, so they are the ones who deserve to be seated..."

To say that the Floridians who came out to vote are the ones who should be counted is ludicrous.

It is like being told that a candidate will not after all be in town as had been promoted and rewarding those people who came anyway.

07 Apr 08 - 08:21 PM (#2309639)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

All Floridians had plenty of notice the election was coming up, so the claim that the people who showed up to vote shouldn't have their votes count...???

Voting is voting, Ebbie. It is a highly regulated legal process, that uses a goodly amount of taxpayers resources.

Why do you feel ANY election results should just be thrown out and not count?

While it might help your guy win this time, how about the next time?

This already is "next time" in Florida. Haven't the Florida voters been disenfranchised enough already?

The voters in Florida went to the polls with the expectation that the party clusterfuck would be figured out eventually, so they could, in good faith, go vote.

It is just mind boggling to me that so many pro-Obama supporters think MILLIONS of votes should be thrown out, regardless of the national & state parties' rules shenanigans.

Why would ANYONE take this sort of electoral process seriously, when the outcome of going to vote in the elections held is that your vote will be thrown so arbitrarily?

07 Apr 08 - 09:26 PM (#2309695)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Ebbie

Your contention(s) are flawed.

#1: Floridians knew, going in, that their presidential nods would not be counted. Florida's top echelon chose to take their chances even though they had been told that the Democratic Party - not Howard Dean alone - would penalize their pushing up the date of their primary.

#2: I am pro-Obama but if Senator Clinton gets the nod I will most happily vote for her. She may be a pit bull, but she is our pitbull. To coin a phrase.

#3: Don't be disingenuous. You know as well as I do that I was not referring to the measures/referenda/whatevers when I said those votes should not be counted. You know that I refer to the primary. You may not be a troll but you got all the moves, honey.

07 Apr 08 - 10:09 PM (#2309710)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,TIA

"Why do you feel ANY election results should just be thrown out and not count?"

If there is only one name on the ballot, it's not much of an election. Sounds like you would be a believer in Saddam Hussein's re-elections with 99% of the vote. Can't mistrust those now can we?

07 Apr 08 - 10:22 PM (#2309716)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

I understand that Floridians knew the circumstances going into the election.

But truly, what choice did Jane & Joe voter have under the circumstances, which wasn't under their control.

Using that logic, the votes shouldn't be counted because they were told their votes wouldn't count? But an election was held anyway?

See, here is the disconnect to my way of thinking.

An election date is set by the Florida legislature.

That date conflicts with the Democratic National Committee's instructions on when primaries will be allowed. (No surprise in a state with the Republican/Democratic split like FL)

The election is held according to the FL legislature's set date.

People show up to vote for the presidential candidates AND local issues on the ballot too.

Winners are declared for both parties, and delegates apportioned according to percent of the vote by candidate.

Democratic National Committee again declares the vote invalid, because it goes against the decision issued by the Democratic National Committee. However, only SOME states are being punished for moving up their election dates, not ALL states.

Florida voters are told, in essence, tough shit.

You think that is how it should work?

07 Apr 08 - 10:30 PM (#2309719)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

Guest TIA, why do you say there was only one name on the Florida ballot?

Clinton, Obama, Edwards, Richardson, Biden, Dodd, Kucinich, and Gravel all had their names on the Florida Democratic primary ballot.

That is quite a few more than one.

07 Apr 08 - 10:36 PM (#2309721)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,TIA

Only one name on the Michigan ballot.
In Florida, all candidates signed a pledge not to campaign at all.

07 Apr 08 - 10:41 PM (#2309724)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

Yeah, and Obama got around his pledge by running national instead of local ads.

Also, you are wrong about the Michigan ballot. Clinton, Kucinich, Gravel & Dodd were on it.

07 Apr 08 - 10:57 PM (#2309734)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Riginslinger

I wonder if Obama, knowing he would lose in Michigan, manufactured a ploy to keep his name of the ballot just in the event that something like this came up.

07 Apr 08 - 11:00 PM (#2309736)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Michigan ballot-
Clinton-   55%
Kucinich-   4%
Dodd-   1%
Gravel-   0%
Uncommitted- 40%

Florida ballot- Approx. 1.7 million FL voters in the Democratic primary.
Clinton-   50%
Obama-   33%
Edwards-   14%
Kucinich-   1%

Some 1.3 million voted in the Republican primary, which was handled much better by the Republican National Committee.
McCain, Romney, Giuliani and Huckabee in that order.

Figures from CNN

07 Apr 08 - 11:21 PM (#2309740)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

Riginslinger, you are right about the Obama decision being quite strategic. I don't know what he intentions and motives were.

The Wiki entry on the MI primary does, however, mention this as a possibility:

"While Biden, Edwards, Obama, and Richardson officially left the Michigan primary in deference to the DNC's rules regarding primary dates, a few political analysts claimed that they unofficially left in order to deprive Clinton of the momentum that she would have gained in Michigan."

08 Apr 08 - 01:24 AM (#2309779)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Genie

Q said: [[Look for court cases from these states following the election. There will be actions aimed at restoring states' primacy over private clubs such as the DNC, since these states pay for and conduct their primaries, and use them (FL and some others) to append other issues requiring a vote.]]
True, the state primaries often have other issues on the ballot, and the states have their rights. But the political parties, when all's said and done, have the right to decide how to choose their nominees, and they should not be forced to base such choice on ever-earlier caucuses and primaries.   (Hence the Democratic Party's wise policy of giving some power to the longtime party loyals and elected representatives known as "superdelegates" instead of leaving the whole shebang up to the whims of an uninformed electorate -- uninformed by virtue of holding primaries too early and probably also by virtue of the radio and TV "pundits" having too much air time relative to that of the actual candidates.   Should the states prevail in suits against the Democratic Party for sticking to their rules, the Party perhaps should just change the rules to give even LESS weight to the results of primaries.

08 Apr 08 - 01:27 AM (#2309780)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Genie

GG said: [[ People came out and voted. ANYONE who does that should have their vote count.]]
Not if the election is rigged.   And when there is NO POSSIBLE WAY to vote for some of the candidates -- as was the case in Michighan -- nobody's vote should count in that 'election'.

Whose bright idea was it to discard ballots with write-in votes in Michigan, anyway?

08 Apr 08 - 07:41 AM (#2309938)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

But every single election is rigged, so that the corporate duopoly holds all the power!

If you do a google search on vote manipulation, election fraud, spoiled ballots, etc. you will find there is a huge problem with federal elections in the US.

And no matter what you think of Ralph Nader as a spoiler for the Democratic party, if you read his now extensive writings about the corrupt electoral system in the US, you would see this bullshit over the seating of the Democratic party delegations from FL & MI is pure manipulating of the outcome. Which the Democratic party now wants to be Obama. So it is guaranteed that no matter what the majority of voters in those states want, they aren't going to get it.

Lesser of two evil voting just gives you a choice of two evils in a corrupt electoral system.

Which is how we got Dubya to begin with--believing that Al Gore was our man.
    Hi- You're welcome to post as a guest at Mudcat, but we expect you to use a consistent name and to conduct yourself in a civil manner. The name Guest,guest (such as it is) has been compromised because it was used by a variety of people over the last few days. Therefore, all new messages posted under the name Guest,guest after midnight tonight, will be deleted (and it would be a show of good will to begin using another name immediately). Please pick another name, and use it consistently - and be nice. You're a guest in our house.
    Thanks.
    -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

08 Apr 08 - 09:15 AM (#2310000)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Bobert

Accepting the Fla. and Mi. delegates in porportion to those who voted is equivelent to..

...playing solataire with several cards missing from the deck...

Don't take rose-colored glasses to see that...

Those two contests, if you can call them, rivaled the Saddam's last election...

They weren't really elctions at all... The candidates din't campaign, the voters knew that the votes weren't going to count and there is little logic in arguing that that they did respresent the feelings of the Dems in those two states...

The only fair way to seat delegates is a a real election... No, not a re-do because a "re-do" inmplieis yet another messed up election...

There are folks willing to finance a real primary and there is time to pull it off... They could be held a week or two after June 3rd...

This is the only transparent way to solve this problem...

B~

08 Apr 08 - 02:22 PM (#2310321)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: GUEST,Guest

So Bobert, do you believe the only solution is to throw out the MI & FL votes, as if the elections never happened?

Is that your position?
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08 Apr 08 - 06:18 PM (#2310596)
Subject: RE: BS: FLA Delegation Will Be Seated at DNC
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

No "real primary" is possible without the financing and agreement of the states involved.
A re-vote was suggested in Michigan, where the estimate by the Secretary of State was $10 million (probabably grossly underestimated), and with the state committed to holding an early primary, by law, the suggestion died midst horselaughs. A re-vote, or "real primary," whatever that is, would have to be with the approval of the state legislature.

Please note that the legislature enacted laws that apply to future primaries as well.

In Florida, approval also must come from the Florida legislature.

Stated baldly, the two states will not agree to another "primary," period. Whether they are willing to change their enacted statutes for future primaries remains to be seen.