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03 Apr 08 - 10:20 PM (#2306083) Subject: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: John on the Sunset Coast What qualifies as a Western? This question came up several times on Jack the Sailor's thread about 'A' western movies. I'd like to offer my thoughts on this, as I could find no really good answers from a cursory exploration of websites. Generally, I would think of the West as the Great Plains to the Pacific Coast, from Texas to the Canadian Border. But the 18th century west might be from the Appalachian Mountains to the Mississippi River. For no real reason, I would think of the period after the War of 1812 through the end of that century. But my last category, to my mind, covers the modern west of 'Lonely Are the Brave' or 'The Misfits'. I have set-up some basic genres, but these are just my thoughts, and you may have others or disagree with some of mine: *Trappers and trailblazers. *Cowboys doing cowboy work…chores around the spread, trail drives, sheepmen etc…against the vicissitudes of man and/or nature. *Drifters who find themselves involved in the problems in a town, or a range war, or the like. *Town tamers, sheriffs and marshals, either for good or bad. *Cavalry vs. the Indians. * Western migration: settling the frontier, a gold rush or a land rush. *Building a stagecoach line, telegraph or railroad. *Outlaws robbing trains and banks, alone or as gangs, and the lawmen who brought them to justice…or not. *The Civil War in the west. *Closing of the west: barbed wire, urbanization, mechanization. Perhaps some of these overlap, or, surely there are others some of you might add. |
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03 Apr 08 - 10:37 PM (#2306094) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: number 6 As I mentioned it in that other thread John (and I was serious) ... it's a good question. But one aspect of it all that came to mind from that other thread is that some of the best movies of all time have been Western movies. Is it the independant free soul of of the 'cowboy', the untamed land, love of nature, good versus evil that somehow is portrayed in these movies that defines it in a genre of it's own and is what attracts us to them? You mentioned the Misfits ... one of my favourite movies ... it is a fine example of a story that reflects the end of the 'western' way of life ... the taming and destruction of freedom. I'll be watching this thread. thanks for starting it. biLL |
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03 Apr 08 - 11:12 PM (#2306107) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: GUEST,heric Quest / promise: e.g. Three Burials 2001? Yojimbo 1380? (Drifters who find themselves involved in the problems in a town, or a range war, or the like.) |
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03 Apr 08 - 11:57 PM (#2306126) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Ebbie To me, a Western means horses. I realize there have been some made that are set in modern times but to me those are not real westerns. :) |
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04 Apr 08 - 12:08 AM (#2306127) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: katlaughing I wouldn't call movies about trappers and trailblazers "Westerns." Maybe a sub-genre, but to me a real Western has horses, cowboys, lawmen, outlaws, Indians, homesteaders/sodbusters, a frontier fort, stagecoach, maybe a wagon train, a school marm, saloon girl, ma & pa, etc.:-) |
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04 Apr 08 - 12:13 AM (#2306129) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Slag You raise an interesting question. You could mark the period as beginning with the currency of the six-shooter and ending with John Browning's automatic rifle and semi-automatic pistol. Or you could date it from the end of the Civil War until WWI. Zane Grey would agree with that, I think (Under the Tonto Rim). You could even legitimately argue that it began with the vaqueros and still lives today in certain places. "Junior Bonner", "The Misfits"! Or you might take a different tact altogether. The discovery of gold at Sutter's Mill began a western movement that radically altered the nature of the entire country. The slower, more gradual populating of the West was supplanted by a radical influx from around the world and the clash of cultures was impossible to foresee or forestall. Throw in the upturn of inventiveness and sweeping technological advances and you could point to any of hundreds of markers of the era. |
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04 Apr 08 - 12:23 AM (#2306132) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Janie I like your categories, John. They make a lot of sense to me. |
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04 Apr 08 - 12:43 AM (#2306139) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Stilly River Sage You're all into a particular genre of Western film, but these horse operas aren't the extent of it. This question gets rehashed regularly on a western literature academic discussion list I've belonged to for years. You have to realize that you're overlooking the huge population centers of the urban west. San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Phoenix, Tucson, Portland, Seattle, and many other quite large cities are also Western. So their stories are Westerns. Just not the genre you've pigeon-holed in this thread. Where does this West of yours begin and end? At political boundaries? The Sonoran Desert of Sonoyta, two miles south of the U.S./Mexico border, is identical to Lukeville, at the border in Arizona. And on and on. Is Bellingham, Washington, Western? It is much further west than Los Angeles and Phoenix. So does Vancouver, B.C., count then, since it is so close to Bellingham? And what about Alaska? You're generally safer sticking to bioregions and spanning history than you are trying to pick a historic moment and layer it over the region. SRS (my academic two cents worth) |
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04 Apr 08 - 01:59 AM (#2306153) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: John on the Sunset Coast Western or not a Western, besides being set in the west (except one) ---in your opinion: The Far Horizons - the Lewis and Clark explorations of 1804/5 Mark of Zorro - set in Mexican California The Alamo - 1836 to fight make Texas independent The Big Sky - Trappers in the northern plains territories about 1830s Buffalo Bill - a 'biography' of the Wild West Show entrepreneuer Union Pacific - building that rail road Jesse James - tale of the outlaw who probably was never west of Missouri Giant - Texas ranching dynasty at turn of 20th century Quigley Down Under - American gunfighter in Australia Baron of Arizona - Con man claims the Arizona territory based on forged Spanish land grant papers If you don't consider them westerns, why not? |
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04 Apr 08 - 02:09 AM (#2306157) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Donuel I wrote one where GWB is the idiot Sheriff. Jeb, Dick, Clint - all the usual suspects. |
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04 Apr 08 - 03:00 AM (#2306178) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: alanabit In the end, I think we can only offer subjective views on what we think Westerns are. When I go to see a "Western", I expect it to be set in a small town at sometime between the end of the Civil War and WWI. It will be set well West (and South) of New England but not quite as far away as the West Coast. I expect horses, punch ups and shoot outs and probably a scene in the cliched saloon. I also expect to see the stock characters mentioned by Kat. I think any of the classic Westerns, which spring to my mind, has those elements. That does not make me any less interested in the sort of films described by John or Stilly River Sage, but if I am told that a film will be a "Western", that is what I expect to see. |
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04 Apr 08 - 04:14 AM (#2306212) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Slag OK (Corral?)! The quintessential Western must have: The stench of horses Cowboys Bandannas, boots, bullet belts, badges and a lot of alliteration. A virtuous woman A soiled Rose Spurs Colt .45 Peacemakers Winchester 30-30 with or without saddle ring A good guy gone wrong OR A bad guy gone right Especially needed, a razor sharp definition OF Right and Wrong A showdown/climax of blazing guns and dramatic death throes And a terse summation from the protagonist. Not entirely essential but would be sorely missed are: A sidekick. A saloon with bad whisky, cheap women and gamblin' A pathetic kid Indians Rattlesnakes A lynchin' or two and concomitant mob A big sky with a contrail or two! Conestoga wagons Wanted posters Dynamite Feel free to add to it! |
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04 Apr 08 - 04:42 AM (#2306219) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: GUEST,Shimrod In the 50s and 60s Westerns seemed to follow the same pattern over and over again. They were either set in some unspecified location, which I suspect was some tract of the Californian countryside reasonably close to the studio or,if the budget was a bit bigger, it would be set in Monument Valley. Some improbable conflict situation would be set up involving good guys and bad guys. Just as the conflict began to get (mildly) interesting an improbably glamorous woman would appear (usually immculately coifed and made-up and dressed in some approximation of 'Victorian' costume). This woman would then 'fall-in-love' with the 'hero' and the whole thing would bog down whilst this tedious romance was tediously pursued. Then there would be a final gunfight and the baddies would be defeated. The hero would get the girl - THE END. It's no wonder Westerns declined in popularity! I certainly learned absolutely nothing about the history of North America from them. |
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04 Apr 08 - 05:25 AM (#2306239) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Big Al Whittle Shimrod! telling us the end of the film. when we were all on the edge our seats with excitement. I bet you were one of those kids who sat behind me in the cinema, going I've seen this before - this is where he falls in the water,.... etc. If you want to know about history - read a book, or watch the history channel. Going into a western with that attitude is like saying - bloody sonnets fourteen crappy lines and you know what the last words going to rhyme with! Or going to the ballet and saying - why are those silly sods on their toes and if that bloody swan dies again, I'll ask for me money back. She did that last week,and then she got up again at the end - she wasn't really dead. |
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04 Apr 08 - 05:46 AM (#2306247) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Mr Happy Guess this http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8zEKaW9vmIg says loads about the genre |
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04 Apr 08 - 06:12 AM (#2306259) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: catspaw49 Ya' know John..............I thought about starting a similar thread but it seemed to me this subject is like asking "What is Folk?" LOL.....,,I don't mean that in a bad way though. It can be fun just to talk it back and forth but I'm pretty sure we'll never see much agreement(;<)) So to that end let me add................. Perhaps we can all agree on the ones "in the middle." Movies like "Winchester '73" and "Shane" are probably the classics of the genre although they may lack the "reality" of later films. With the exception of a very few it isn't necessary that we have historical accuracy. Westerns only need be entertainment, not history (although they can be). Many of the central classics pay a passing nod to historical accuracy. The real tough ones to classify for me would be some of my favorites. Very enjoyable (to me, YMMV) and somehow "cowboy" related, "The Misfits," "Junior Bonner," and even the schlocky "Bronco Billy,"(sorry, I like it---its fun!) should have some category. Westerns are a pretty broad classification and I think there is room for whatever you think is a Western being a Western! Spaw |
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04 Apr 08 - 06:56 AM (#2306287) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Slag Filming locales! Yes! Half the Westerns ever made (not to mention many other dramas set in modern times) have a formation called "The Mormon Rocks" in them. Even Star Trek where Kirk fought the guy with the rubber lizard head. They are a group of sandstone rocks that slant at about a 45 degree angle. The are located at the top of Cajon Pass just off 395 heading out of San Bernardino into the high desert. Once you identify this group you will be seeing them forever. If you turn left first chance you get after you reach the desert you will be headed toward Antelope Valley. This is on the back side of the San Gabriel Mountains. That's the ones you see during the Rose Parade and Rose Bowl Football Game. The were the backdrop for The Outlaw Jose Wales and many other Westerns. You will often see the San Gabriels and Mormon Rocks in the same flick. It doesn't cost a whole lot nor take too long to move your equipment 15 or 20 miles down the road. If you continue up 395 you will come to the (once little) town of Victorville. Just over the Mojave River (yes there is a river that runs through part of the Mojave Desert) you come to Apple Valley Where Roy Rogers lived. Many of his movies were filmed in this location as well as some of Gene Autry's. However a greater number of those B movies were filmed in studio back lots in the Hollywood Hills, Thousand Oaks, Semi Valley and the like. The Grand Tetons was the backdrop for Shane and many other movies. Jackson Hole WY just south of the Grand Tetons Nat'l Park Has also seen many films produced. "Any Which Way But Loose" ends up here. John Huston had a financial partner in Walter Boone and together they formed the HB Cattle Ranch located just west of California Hot Springs in the Sierra Nevada foothills. It was a 70 section (square miles) working cattle ranch (and is to this day) and Huston ( he was the grizzled old prospector in Treasure of the Sierra Madre) produced at least two early Westerns on this beautiful ranch. I can't remember their titles just off hand, sorry. John Wayne had a ranch near Casa Grande AZ and I believe that it served as an occasional backdrop for some of his movies. I'll have to check with my "known source" on that one as her uncle was Wayne's foreman on that ranch. |
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04 Apr 08 - 08:16 AM (#2306340) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Riginslinger I think for a Western Movie to work it has to be cut off from the larger society. Something happens in a small town, and it has to be handled by the local people. Or it happens on a cattle drive or on a ranch, but the entire episode is isolated and remote from the rest of everything. |
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04 Apr 08 - 09:11 AM (#2306383) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: catspaw49 So Rig......Seen any of the "Magnificent 7" series? How about "Shane?" Or a couple hundred others where someone, although possibly hired by a "local," comes to town and kicks the villain's ass (which might be local ass)? Spaw |
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04 Apr 08 - 10:13 AM (#2306435) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: GUEST,Shimrod WLD, I don't mind formulae but the standard Western formula was so bloody tedious! It was also bloodless (no pun intended - all gunshots were either fatal or involved a virtually trauma-less wound to the arm - very little blood). I read a lot of books about The West when I was younger - and virtually none of what I read about appeared on screen. As for: "If you want to know about history - read a book, or watch the history channel." This is part of the old 'entertainment should be mindless' debate ("bollocks" is the short answer to this assertion!). I'm an information junky - I need to know about things. For me, an historical film should vicariously convey something about what it FELT like to live during a particular historical period. At the end of the day I don't mind if it is later revealed that the filmaker made it all up - just as long as it's not just lazily formulaic and I can't see the joins at the time I'm watching the film. Thanks for the info. 'Slag'. I thought that it was somewhere in California in all those films - even though I've never been there. |
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04 Apr 08 - 10:24 AM (#2306443) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: alanabit Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I don't think any of us expect the Wild West of Western films to be anything but mythical. We see shoot outs in Tombstone, but we learn that in the latter years of the nineteenth century there was a homicide rate of about one a year. We see fast draws with stunning accuracy even though we know that the guns of the day were not capable of this. We see stock characters, who are essentially a creation of the film industry. The world of Western films is a mythical one. I believe it makes no sense to view it in any other way. I find soap opera repulsive for all the reasons (and more) that Shimrod dislikes Westerns. I know Westerns are a dumb fantasy, but I am more than happy to suspend my disbelief for an hour or two of unpretentious entertainment. No disrespect to those, who aren't. |
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04 Apr 08 - 10:40 AM (#2306453) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Riginslinger "So Rig......Seen any of the "Magnificent 7" series? How about "Shane?" Or a couple hundred others where someone, although possibly hired by a "local," comes to town and kicks the villain's ass (which might be local ass)?" Yeah, isn't that exactly what I said? |
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04 Apr 08 - 10:59 AM (#2306466) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Stilly River Sage Classic Westerns: The Maltese Falcon East of Eden Blade Runner |
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04 Apr 08 - 11:01 AM (#2306470) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Riginslinger Okay, I'll bite. If you're East of Eden, how do you get way out west? |
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04 Apr 08 - 11:13 AM (#2306483) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Mr Happy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_%28genre%29 |
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04 Apr 08 - 11:15 AM (#2306485) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: John on the Sunset Coast Thank you all for your well thought out answers. As Alanabit noted, it is our subjective view on what makes a 'western'; I'm look forward to more opinions. I think that all of the titles I mentioned this morning (actually last night on the sunset coast) are westerns. But for me the classic western setting would be the decades of the 1870s/80s, and the story would have many of the elements,in various combinations, noted above. It would be a moral tale of big/small, altruism/greed, good/evil....but it could also be a story about just overcoming the hardships of life in a rural setting. I don't expect to find historic accuracy, necessarily; else why would we have umpteen versions of the OK Corral story, and why would Wyatt Earp be portrayed as a man in his 50s or 60s in 'Winchester '73', when he actually would have been about 35 years old then? |
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04 Apr 08 - 11:18 AM (#2306488) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: The Fooles Troupe "My Baby Loves The Western Movies"... now it's a Music Thread! :-) |
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04 Apr 08 - 11:18 AM (#2306489) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Stilly River Sage The historical novel is by John Steinbeck, set in California. Are you not familiar with it? Steinbeck was a modernist writer, lots of classical and literary references, and this novel is aligned with a biblical theme (Cain and Abel). The title (I cheated and went to Wikipedia, I didn't want to rummage my notes) is from the full quote in Genesis: "And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden." Another wonderful novel (all of his were, and the lion's share were set in the west) was Grapes of Wrath. Now that's a Western! Love those old trucks and hobo camps. . . SRS |
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04 Apr 08 - 11:21 AM (#2306492) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Stilly River Sage And it could be argued successfully, I think, that the Film Noir is an American film approach that suits films set in the west particularly well. |
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04 Apr 08 - 11:24 AM (#2306495) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Georgiansilver It might well help to understand where the term 'Western' started. Did it emanate from the British idea of "The Wild West' which was representative of the US pre 1900 generally and which presented as cowboys, indians, prospectors, sheriffs, Wells Fargo, the cavalry, forts, tepees,wigwams, Pinkertons agency, wincheters, colts, etc etc? I have no idea personally but that's my guess. |
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04 Apr 08 - 11:25 AM (#2306498) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: John on the Sunset Coast Mr. Happy, while I don't necessarily disagree with that information, I normally take Wikipedia with a grain of salt. Anybody can post to it (I have) with information which may be unverified, and sometimes downright wrong...perhaps maliciously so. While many see sites like this as a boon to the information age, I view it as I would information often called into political talk shows. I'm wary of anonymous 'information.' |
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04 Apr 08 - 11:33 AM (#2306503) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: pdq There should be some limits put on the term 'western movie" else "Buck Benny Rides Again" would qualify. |
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04 Apr 08 - 11:36 AM (#2306505) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Katlaughing makes and interesting point. In the thread I started I wondered if Seven Samurai was a western, it really has all of the elements except for location and language. I think a movie genre, more than anything else is defined by the antagonist Treasure of Sierra Madre, one of my favorite movies, does not have the feel of a western. The plot is not straightforward and the antagonist ends up being Dobbs' animal nature rather than indians or rustlers or rail road barons. |
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04 Apr 08 - 11:36 AM (#2306507) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Stilly River Sage My point is that the term "Western Movie" is larger than the genre that these guys are discussing. |
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04 Apr 08 - 11:46 AM (#2306514) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: pdq Then "Buck Benny Rides Again" is a Western ???. |
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04 Apr 08 - 11:50 AM (#2306519) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: John on the Sunset Coast Jack, Seven Samurai's is a western, "The Magnificent Seven." |
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04 Apr 08 - 11:56 AM (#2306526) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Georgiansilver The Seven Samurai must be an Eastern Western! |
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04 Apr 08 - 12:01 PM (#2306531) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Jack the Sailor I have both on DVD and have watched them for comparison. The original story translated quite well as a Western. I had a specific idea when I started that thread but even now I can only describe it with examples I think a more narrow term which describes what a lot of folks think of as a Western, might be "Horse Opera". |
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04 Apr 08 - 12:01 PM (#2306532) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: katlaughing I can't believe I forgot the cattle herd, at some point stampeding and also six-shooters! OH, and only greenhorns and city slickers tucked their pants inside their cowboy boots! |
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04 Apr 08 - 12:53 PM (#2306566) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Stilly River Sage The Frontier In American History by Frederick Jackson Turner. The first essay, originally presented at the World's Columbian Exposition in 1893, begins:
In a recent bulletin of the Superintendent of the Census for 1890 appear these significant words: "Up to and including 1880 the country had a frontier of settlement, but at present the unsettled area has been so broken into by isolated bodies of settlement that there can hardly be said to be a frontier line. In the discussion of its extent, its westward movement, etc., it can not, therefore, any longer have a place in the census reports." This brief official statement marks the closing of a great historic movement. Up to our own day American history has been in a large degree the history of the colonization of the Great West. The existence of an area of free land, its continuous recession, and the advance of American settlement westward, explain American development. This is his footnote: 1 A paper read at the meeting of the American Historical Association in Chicago, July 12, 1893. It first appeared in the Proceedings of the State Historical Society of Wisconsin, December 14, 1893, with the following note: "The foundation of this paper is my article entitled 'Problems in American History,' which appeared in The Ægis, a publication of the students of the University of Wisconsin, November 4, 1892... It is gratifying to find that Professor Woodrow Wilson-- whose volume on 'Division and Reunion' in the Epochs of American History Series, has an appreciative estimate of the importance of the West as a factor in American history--accepts some of the views set forth in the papers above mentioned, and enhances their value by his lucid and suggestive treatment of them in his article in The Forum December, 1893, reviewing Goldwin Smith's 'History of the United States.'" The present text is that of the Report of the American Historical Association for 1893, 199-227. It was printed with additions in the Fifth Year Book of the National Herbart Society, and in various other publications. This 1893 essay is still important today in this discussion. The link is to an open access hypertext version of a book that collected many of his essays. You'll find this has a lot to do with what people understand about The West. SRS |
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04 Apr 08 - 07:15 PM (#2306845) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Big Al Whittle No no no! the maltese falcon my arse...... where were the cowboy hats, the six shooters, the stagecoaches, the horses... And more to the point the vision of america as a great frontier waitng for the brave and the hopeful...When you respect the form its still possible, as in Wyatt earp. The lyricism of lawrence Kasdan's work is breathtaking - even to think about. The Maltese Falcom is film noir.........decadent forces of law and order chasing after social misfits. and thats what its about really. the grace of the actors, the epic sense of human possibilty - whether it be for good or evil, the dramtic backdrop of one of the most interesting periods of history..... Rather like Isherwood's Berlin novels have a dramatic backdrop because they prefigure th holocaust. some times in our history just seem to have a special significance. |
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04 Apr 08 - 08:08 PM (#2306913) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: McGrath of Harlow Any film with Americans who don't live in cities, and who wear hats with big brims. |
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04 Apr 08 - 08:16 PM (#2306926) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor You mean like Captains Courageous? |
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04 Apr 08 - 08:19 PM (#2306930) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Slag Until Oklahoma entered the Union in 1907 it was Indian Territory and says so on my Grandfather's birth certificate. New Mexico, followed by Arizona entered the Union in 1913, I believe and in a way you could argue that there were no more frontiers, or better, that the frontiers (borders) were now established. The Western, as a genre, has a series of frontiers which reflect different aspects of the West and which have direct ties to historical events. Within the genre you have at least three main divisions, the purely historical, which may lack accuracy and include embellishments but purports nothing beyond the historical events, eg "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid". Then you have fictions which allude to historical events or use such an event as merely a setting for the tale eg "Boots and Saddles". And lastly you have the pure Western fantasy such as "Support Your Local Sheriff" and "Open Range". As for placement, I like the term offered by someone above ( I think it was Kat) "Buckskins" which represent the very earliest western push as the European settlers, now established along the East Coast began a push into the interior along the Ohio River and on into Kentucky and Tennessee and then into Missouri and what are now the Mississippian states. Saint Louis became the main embarkation point into the West proper and I would contend that the westward expansion from the Mississippi constitutes the real dividing point for the geographical limit of the genre. Mark Twain sits astride this great boundary and gives us a real insider's look in both directions at once. Is it any wonder that the man had such a sense of humor?! The Great Oklahoma Land Rush, while surely a defining moment of western incursion does not really set a boundary but serves as an event or series of events for further development of the West. Rather, as for the movie genre you have John Chisholm located between the Rio Lobos and the Pecos River. Many of the Westerns and Pure Westerns center around the cattle drives to the Abilene KS rail heads. The Pecos River is the next boundary and the saga of Judge Roy Bean and Lily Langtry figures prominently here. Next comes not a river but the great deserts of the American Southwest and another division which runs north, the Oregon Trail. In the southern route lay Death Valley which epitomizes the harsh barrier the deserts were and to the north lay higher elevation deserts and the Great Salt Lake. Neither direction was a picnic. And a last barrier, common to both directions is a magnificent wall of granite which reaches to an elevation of 14,494 feet (4556.5 m) and extends from the transverse San Gabriel Range of Southern California to Mt. Lassen in the north where it blends into the Cascades Range that extends on into Washington State, a formidable barrier. And of course the northwestern slope of the Sierra Nevadas holds the goldfields which really fired the great push west. So take your choice of time and location. There are stories just waiting to be told and Hollywood has not nearly exhausted the supply at hand. Just cautious money men who haven't got the cajones or imagination to do a really righteous Western movie about a story that has not yet been told. |
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04 Apr 08 - 08:28 PM (#2306943) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: McGrath of Harlow Hats weren't big enough, and the brims were the wrong shape. And it was written by Rudyard Kipling. |
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04 Apr 08 - 09:25 PM (#2307024) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Richard Bridge It occurs to me to ask why, if stories and films about this relatively short period in American history have such widespread resonance with people of so many ages and countries and cultures, folk music (1945 definition) is so widely criticised as irrelevant to modern cultures. |
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04 Apr 08 - 10:09 PM (#2307066) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Slag As far as I'm concerned, being a child of the West, it is the heart and soul of America. |
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04 Apr 08 - 10:24 PM (#2307079) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: John on the Sunset Coast Great Post, Slag. Good divisions of eras. But I'm a bit confused on your California geography, but I may be misunderstanding what you're describing. You juxtapose Death Valley and and the Salt Lake Basin; actually Death Valley is about an hour's drive from Mt Whitney, which is part of the southern end of the Sierra Nevada Mountains, the 'magnificent wall of granite' as you aptly describe them. Of course, by wagon in the 19th century that was probably a good three day trek. While, the Sierras join the Cascades in the north, I don't believe they actually join the San Gabriels. BTW, I live in the San Gabriel Mts. about 15 miles nw of downtown Los Angeles (but at low elevation, relatively speaking.) Thanks for the post. |
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05 Apr 08 - 03:56 AM (#2307190) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Slag Thanks John! I cited Death Valley as epitomizing the barrier the deserts were to the settlers. Not very many tried to cross the Death Valley. Accurate information and knowledgeable guides were in scarce supply so some unlucky or misinformed folks got routed this way. A fellow named Walter Knotts' relative suffered this fate but still survived and Mr. knotts went on to establish a quite successful berry farm in Anaheim CA. My Dad picked berries for Mr, Knotts when he was a kid. The route below Death Valley, pretty much as Hwy 58 lies, was the route to both the Tehachapi Pass and the Cajon Pass. The valleys and ridges that cover Nevada look like waves on the ocean when you observe them on a topo map. Very inhospitable and user unfriendly to wagons and such. I believe Ship Rock, New Mexico ( not sure about NM as it may be in AZ, at any rate, in proximity to Four Corners) was the point where the wagon trains went either north or south in the early Gold Rush days. The Santa Fe Trail became the accepted southern route and was the line for the Butterfield Stage Coach Lines (which eventually evolved into the Continental Bus Lines). In the north Hwy 80 represents the route to Reno and Donner and the quickest access to the Gold Strike and it was serviced by the Wells Fargo Stage Line. I'm guessing, John, you live near Upland or Ontario. The Sierra Nevadas make a curve which the transverse Garlock Fault Line creates. On the map you see that the Great San Joaquin Valley, below Bakersfield is a crescent shape. The Grapevine (now the Ridge Route) has a sign on it which says that you are now entering the San Gabriel Nat'l Forest so, for me, it's hard to tell where one leaves off and the other begins. It has be quite a few years since I have been down in your neck of the woods so I will defer to you! I do know that Ft. Tejon overlooked the southern end of the Valley and (facing south) Mt. Pinos and certain other rather lofty peaks trail away to the Pacific Ocean to the right. To the left is Palmdale, Lancaster (humorous, eh, my English friends?) and Antelope Valley. San Gabriels are an East/West range, not very long, as mountain ranges go. On the east side of Cajon Pass lies Big Bear and Arrowhead Lake (man-made). This, I consider to be part of the same range as San Gabriels, nomenclature aside. They finally dwindle into the desert around Desert Hot Springs, north of Palm Springs. There is an old hacienda style hotel (ala Santa Fe) here and a western town which was built to serve as a filming location (which it did) in this area but is now occupied by full time residents. I used to go poking around in some of the old goldmines on the backside of Big Bear in the 70's, a very dangerous pass time. It's some very beautiful country. |
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05 Apr 08 - 04:23 AM (#2307198) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Richard Bridge And so is folk music the heart and soul of what we learn from our cultural forbears. So why is the Western seen as relevant today, but folk music not? |
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05 Apr 08 - 05:28 AM (#2307239) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Big Al Whittle who says folk music isn't entertaining - Peter paul and mary, Roger Whittaker - even the way out ethnic sounds of Bob Dylan have a certain appeal. However, breathes there a soul so dull that wouldn't rather watch She Wore a Yellow Ribbon? |
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05 Apr 08 - 05:30 AM (#2307241) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: GUEST,Shimrod Obviously there are a number of North American contributors to this thread who have a deep knowledge of their country's history and geography - wonderful stuff! Although I, being an Englishman, stuck on this tiny island, have never seen the West such talk always sets my imagination on fire. So why are Westerns so bloody boring?!! |
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05 Apr 08 - 05:56 AM (#2307249) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Big Al Whittle I don't find them boring. Who was it who said open her heart and you find written Calais. I think part of me will always be a little boy hiding behind the sfa with his woolworths sixgun shooting at the bad guys on the the tv. I suppose when Sam Larner came home from a fishing trip, there were nothing but Norfolk accents all around him. When my Dad came home form work, there was Hugh O'Brian on the telly as Wyatt Earp. Sam had one model of manhood to define himself, I had different ones. Folk music is about a sense of self. I have in fact written quite a lot about how I relate to westerns on my website - if anybody's interested. And why it finds its way into my songs occasionally. heres the relevant webpage http://bigalwhittle.co.uk/id4.html |
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05 Apr 08 - 06:35 AM (#2307259) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Slag Folk music NOT??? Hey, Westerns have had their ups and downs. At one point H.wood wasn't doing them at all. The "Western" is dead, they all said. Then Mr. "Rowdy Yates" himself (Clint Eastwood) made "The Unforgiven" and---There were Westerns once again! We will never leave or lose Folk Music as it is a part of us also. If nothing else it is a history of people's struggle against tyranny and oppression and a hundred other injustices. It is also about the land and love of family and country. A voice for unity and many other things. There are many people who have to be told what is good and what is "IN" and what is bad and what is "OUT" because they simply do not have a clue. Pity them. Those in the know understand and recognize the intrinsic worth of folk music. |
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05 Apr 08 - 10:07 AM (#2307398) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Richard Bridge But is the Western hero as much a myth as the noble savage of folk collectors? |
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05 Apr 08 - 10:17 AM (#2307406) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Riginslinger That's a hard question to answer. He obviously didn't make the transition to smokeless powder. |
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05 Apr 08 - 10:46 AM (#2307427) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor But is the Western hero as much a myth as the noble savage of folk collectors? I've thought some about this while trying to teach myself to write screenplays of my own. I would say no neither is totally a myth. But with I have many qualifications, for that statement. There were some real western Heroes. On the other hand, there were also some noble "savages". Though savage is a very degrading and Eurocentric term. Wyatt Earp, certainly was a hero at times. Tecumseh was by the accounts I have read, a noble warrior and leader. In dramatizations of the most famous western story, the gunfight at the OK Corrall, it seems that the Earps are usually painted as better than they actually were and the Clantons get painted a little worse. The fact that it was a culmination of a political battle is often glossed over or ignored for the sake of the story. There are archtypes used in movies that tend to exaggerate certain qualities in characters in order to make a more universal story or a more clear morality play. Hero, antihero, comedic side kick, damsel in distress are a few examples. When dealing with historic material, the screenwriter often glosses over the parts of the bio that do not fit the archtype that the movie requires. |
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05 Apr 08 - 10:49 AM (#2307431) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Stilly River Sage For a change of pace, look at a novel that I wonder if it would ever been made into a film, but might be great if they did: Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian. Very nicely manages to get past those mythic heroes you mention. An incredible weaving of history and fiction, and leaves you feeling like the author walked every step of ground covered in the book. SRS |
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05 Apr 08 - 11:14 AM (#2307451) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Novels don't often make as good a movies as shorter works do. "Dune" was made from a novel, cut to fit a movie format. (It actually had a series of novels to draw on.) "Blade Runner" and "2001, A Space Odyssey" were expanded from short stories. Some of the best movies are explorations of a simple concept. A good novel, in my humble opinion is a much much more complex and cerebral work. I think that the more ground is covered in a Novel, the less likely it is to become a good screenplay. |
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05 Apr 08 - 11:22 AM (#2307460) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor I think I should say that I was talking generally. Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian may be a great basis for a Movie. I have not read it. |
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05 Apr 08 - 11:38 AM (#2307479) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Big Al Whittle 'But is the Western hero as much a myth as the noble savage of folk collectors?' Oh I think so Richard, in the same way as the pirates in Treasure Island were a confection for a Victorian boys magazine - rather than bloodthirsty rapists and torturers. Similarly a quick research into te known facts about Dick Turpin reveal a rather nasty piece of work. I do seem to detect signs of gallantry and decency in the character of John Dillinger. Certainly not a natural born killer, like some of the men he ran with - later in his career at least. |
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05 Apr 08 - 02:20 PM (#2307630) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: John on the Sunset Coast Slag, I live in the Crescenta Valley, nestled between the foothills that are laughingly called the Verdugo Mountains and the western end of the San Gabriels. We're northwest of Los Angeles; Upland is about 25 miles east of us. Highway 58 still connects the Barstow with Bakersfield. I believe that this is the route the Joads took into Bakersfield area. It's been over 40 years since I read Grapes of Wrath, so I may be wrong on that. |
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05 Apr 08 - 03:27 PM (#2307686) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: GUEST,heric google says you're right John.(And they buried Granma along that road in Tehachapi Valley.) |
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05 Apr 08 - 04:21 PM (#2307739) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: GUEST,heric You guys left out the good-hearted madame who decides to help out the protagonist, even though they had never - you know - and never will. I'm bummed that no one took up the "quest to fulfill a promise" sub-genre. I'm working on it - I am sure John Wayne did it a couple of times (e.g. for a dead friend's several daughters - he had to get them somewhere), but so far I only finding modern westerns that you won't accept: Three Burials (Texas), The Pledge (Nevada), and Bad Day at Black Rock (Arizona.) I realize this isn't limited to westerns, but I am on a quest. Clint always fell into it when he just wanted to escape his past, so that doesn't count, but I'll bet Jimmy Stewart did it too. |
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05 Apr 08 - 05:03 PM (#2307786) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: John on the Sunset Coast "Three Godfathers", I believe fits that criterion, Guest:Heric. It has been made 4 or 5 times. |
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05 Apr 08 - 05:47 PM (#2307813) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: fumblefingers Do you need a multi-page definition to identify a Western? You gotta have Horseshit & Gunsmoke, John Wayne is a plus. It can't be set later than 1900. The Railroad and the telegraph are optional. The antagonists are either white guys, Meskins or Injuns. The pistols must be able to shoot 34 times without reloading or actually hitting anything—unless it's an Annie Oakley picture. John on the Sunset Coast: Jesse James rode with Quantril when they sacked Lawrence, Kansas. That's west of MO. But only by about 35 miles. |
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05 Apr 08 - 07:18 PM (#2307871) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: John on the Sunset Coast Fumblefingers - Well, I guess that's close enough for folk music, as they say. Coincidentally, I saw a few minutes of a western, "Kansas Raiders" this A.M., which showed Jesse joining Quantrill, and the Lawrence raid. |
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06 Apr 08 - 02:49 AM (#2308024) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Slag Yes John, I did some checking. The Sierra Nevada batholith ( a great chunk of granite floating like a cork in the liquid rock mantle) stretches from the Reno area to just about Tehachapi. My Dad and his folks came over the Tehachapi Pass just ahead of the Dust Bowl by a couple of years. I grew up in Delano CA, just north of Bakersfield. That was Joaquin Marietta's territory. I now live where Black Bart operated! As for mythology, it's really debatable and it largely depends on how one defines "myth". If you happen to agree with the definition that states that "a myth is an untrue story that reveals a truth." (Gary Kessler, ca 1975) then I have to disagree. A lot of the stories are true. I imagine that the shades of gray have been leached from them in the repeated telling but other stories were chronicled in the newspapers of the day and the facts are verifiable. What Hollywood does with them is anybody's guess. Some are so outlandish that they drive you to the history books. I would call the verifiable Westerns "True stories of mythic proportion." I've been wanting to add my two cents about the Earp clan for some time now and here is as good as any. In my opinion Wyatt Earp was a dirty murderous dog no better than the bunch he took out. From time to time he would take on the aspect of being a lawman to provide color of authority to settle his own grievances in a permanent way. He thought nothing of lying in wait and shooting a man in the back. In one incident he buried himself in sand by the side of the road and after his target rode by he came up out of the sand and shot him in the back. Elsewhere it has been said that it is the victor who writes the history and this is so true in Earp's case. John Behan, sheriff of Tombstone had a daunting task keeping the lid on the boomtown. The Earps were not a welcome addition to the mix, just another problem with which to deal. The OK Corral incident caused a local stir and Earp was tried for murder but there wasn't sufficient evidence to get a conviction. If I remember correctly it came down to something like "mutual combat". It has been some time since I studied this. But I do know that Sheriff Behan went on to serve his country honorably in WWI while Wyatt was off to Alaska or San Francisco. After Behan's death, Earp began to tell the story "his way" in several different versions. Hillary was not the first to have a convenient memory. Ah, maybe it's just a tempest in a tea cup but it galls me every time I see the whitewash job. There, 2 cents. |
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06 Apr 08 - 03:28 AM (#2308038) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: The Fooles Troupe "Seven Samurai's is a western, "The Magnificent Seven."" Magnificent Seven was a 'steal' from a Japanese Samurai Movie by Kurosawa. Of course, he also pinched "MacBeth" and reset it in Japan... "So why are Westerns so bloody boring?!!" Well the Western TV Series "F Troop" was a laugh a minute! |
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06 Apr 08 - 04:37 AM (#2308062) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: GUEST,Shimrod I've read 'Blood Meridian' and consider it to be an almost miscievous 'anti-western'. I'm sure that the Old West was a violent place - but was it really the maelstrom of chaotic and catastrophic violence that BM makes it out to be (a bit like modern Congo or Somalia without the modern weapons)? |
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06 Apr 08 - 06:26 AM (#2308120) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: Slag Tame, compared to a Saturday night in downtown Oakland CA. |
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06 Apr 08 - 01:31 PM (#2308374) Subject: RE: BS: What is a Western Movie? From: John on the Sunset Coast Foolstroupe, the Kurasawa movie from which the Magnificent Seven derived IS Seven Samurai. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. |
