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21 Apr 08 - 07:07 AM (#2321353) Subject: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Mr Happy In response to the several 쳌ebickering쳌f threads, including the 쳌eWill Fests Survive쳌f one, it can be deduced that there쳌fs actually two main types of folkie, comprising: Active participants; singers, musicians, dancers, story tellers, poets, mummers etc Passive audients who pay their money for others to entertain them. Of course, amongst both groups, there may be some crossover, but in the main, this is my impression of the folkie population of Britain. I include myself in the active group & have little interest in concerts, folk clubs & so on, preferring the session/sinaround settings both locally and at festivals. Comments? |
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21 Apr 08 - 07:16 AM (#2321356) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Mr Happy I forgot, there쳌fs a 3rd kind, those who don쳌ft attend any live events, but listen to folky stuff at home on their stereos. |
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21 Apr 08 - 07:17 AM (#2321358) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Ernest I play a little - mostly in my living room, sometimes with friends/at a session - but go to concerts etc. as well. Without the concerts - and the contact to musicians (pro and semi-pro) - I wouldn`t have started playing at all, I presume. I draw a lot of inspiration from hearing others at concerts AND sessions. And neither pro`s nor semi-pro`s nor sessions at public places would exist without audiences. So what is your point, Mr. Happy? Regards Ernest |
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21 Apr 08 - 07:19 AM (#2321361) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Bonnie Shaljean Hmmmm, local sinaround sessions... tell us more ;-) |
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21 Apr 08 - 07:21 AM (#2321362) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Mr Happy Sessions in public places can exist witout audiences, there's many like this in my local area. The participants play & sing mainly for their own entertainment & enjoyment & the prescence of audients can be incidental but fine if we're giving them a good time too! |
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21 Apr 08 - 07:25 AM (#2321366) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Ruth Archer "Hmmmm, local sinaround sessions... tell us more" very popular in Lincolnshire - especially when the TV reception cuts out again... ;0) |
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21 Apr 08 - 07:29 AM (#2321369) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Ernest Yes, sessions can exist without audiences - but how many would if the landlord wouldn`t expect additional customers? Still I don`t see your point. My experience is that you find a lot more active musicians at folk concerts than concerts of other musical styles. Best Ernest (off to work again now) |
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21 Apr 08 - 07:38 AM (#2321374) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: TheSnail "Hmmmm, local sinaround sessions... tell us more" Eee, we 'ad to make our own entertainment in those days. That's why there's so many of us. |
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21 Apr 08 - 07:44 AM (#2321377) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Mr Happy My point? Instead of initiating further thread drift on the 쳌eFests Survival쳌f thread, I wish to clarify how folk festival organisers may perceive & cater for potential customers. |
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21 Apr 08 - 07:45 AM (#2321378) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Backwoodsman RUTH! STOP IT AT ONCE! You know what a shower of in-bred, talentless, ugly barstools we are - we have to entertain ourselves somehow! :-) :-) J |
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21 Apr 08 - 07:50 AM (#2321379) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: TheSnail But seriously... I don't see why there needs to be a separation between those two groups. I see it as a continuum from those who are happy to sit in rows and be entertained through the active participants to the full time professionals. I think most folkies will cover a range of that spectrum rather than a single point. |
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21 Apr 08 - 07:53 AM (#2321382) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Gulliver "Hmmmm, local sinaround sessions... tell us more" I too would be interested in finding out more about these. These are obviously frequented by a type of folkie we haven't seen around Dublin. Or maybe there's all these sinaround sessions going on here but I just haven't been invited to one yet. Sigh... |
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21 Apr 08 - 08:12 AM (#2321393) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Dave Hunt Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Ernest - PM Date: 21 Apr 08 - 07:29 AM Yes, sessions can exist without audiences - but how many would if the landlord wouldn`t expect additional customers? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Re;the above Well the monthly English music session that I have been running (for about 10 years now)does not bring in additional customers to the pub - there are only the regulars, and the landlady is perfectly happy to have us there, and always provides food too (which can be anything, sandwiches, satay sticks, sausage rolls, bread and cheeses, mince pies and mulled wine at Christmas - last night it was plates of bread and butter and dishes of scumptious chips for DIY chip butties - always popular that one!) plus the ocassional round of free drinks too. Dave |
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21 Apr 08 - 08:16 AM (#2321398) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Mr Happy Dave Hunt, Ditto your response. In my experience, the sessioneers are the extra customers in otherwise fairly deserted pubs. |
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21 Apr 08 - 08:20 AM (#2321401) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Mr Red I would agree with the premise. There is Folk and there is entertainment. And the difference is driven by money. So is the bickering. It is a spectrum, and wouldn't it be boring if there was nothing in the middle? But pedant that I am - it is more like a 4 dimensional spectrum (because I can only think in 3D and time that's why). There is the typical Folk characteristic of concern and consideration for fellow "non gender human". Not all Folkies are totally altruistic but you would expect to experience more of them in the Folk world. And less in the "OK entertain me" world. And the nearer Folk gets to the entertainment world the more it looks like the latter. Mr Happy I wish to clarify how folk festival organisers may perceive & cater for potential customers There are as many answers as there are organisers (money figures), some organisers have not sussed that insulting people publically disaudes people who are not in the firing line (lets call them nice people), and attracts some (lets call them the "me generation") who welcome the cut and thrust. Most punters wait until it really really gets their pet preferences. Folkies have to see the inevitable and make their choices before they feel agrieved. |
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21 Apr 08 - 08:22 AM (#2321403) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Big Al Whittle Yes two kinds at least....men and women for a start. And some places they allow dogs in. |
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21 Apr 08 - 08:25 AM (#2321405) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Mr Happy wld, LOL!! |
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21 Apr 08 - 08:27 AM (#2321408) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Ruth Archer "You know what a shower of in-bred, talentless, ugly barstools we are - we have to entertain ourselves somehow! :-) :-)" Oh dear - have I let the cat out of the bag? |
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21 Apr 08 - 09:45 AM (#2321466) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Georgiansilver >>>>>>>>>"You know what a shower of in-bred, talentless, ugly barstools we are - we have to entertain ourselves somehow! :-) :-)"<<<<<<<<<<<< I wouldn't say that John...No not at all..... but we are a lot of perverted backwoodsmen according to one self appointed 'authority' on the Cat eh? Some Countess or other wasn't she? |
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21 Apr 08 - 10:13 AM (#2321484) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Dave Hanson It's about time someone started a ' sinaround ' permathread, people could add to it , then us as don't 'ave any could get some. OK eric |
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21 Apr 08 - 11:09 AM (#2321521) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Acorn4 The good thing about the folk scene is its breadth and "all embracing" nature -both for participents and those who juat want to watch. I think the most irritating thing is those who wander into a pub as "audience" and then try to demand that the musicians "play to the gallery" -usually lowest common denominator stuff like "American Pie", "Wild Rover" -takes a really strong organiser to "put them in theri place". |
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21 Apr 08 - 11:18 AM (#2321531) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Mr Happy A pal of mine was bought a pint by an audient who asked him to sing 'Down where the drunkards roll' My friend said he'd do it shortly & the audient wandered off. He performed the request, but some time after, the requestor came over & asked when he was going to do it. 'I've done it' 'Well I didn't hear you' 'Well I'll do it again later, ok?' My friend ended up doing it 3 times, but the other bloke missed it every time! |
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21 Apr 08 - 11:30 AM (#2321549) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: meself 'The good thing about the folk scene is its breadth and "all embracing" nature -both for participents and those who juat want to watch.' I understand that this '"all embracing" nature' is particularly evident in the 'sinarounds" ... |
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21 Apr 08 - 11:55 AM (#2321569) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: GUEST, Sminky There are two kinds of folkies: those who think there are two kinds of folkies and those who don't. |
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21 Apr 08 - 12:14 PM (#2321582) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: MaineDog According to Aristotle there are 4 temperaments (Personality types). According to Myers-Briggs there are 16. Now if we add a dimension of folkieness, we will have 32. When we get everyone put into their proper box, then we will know how to proceed... MD |
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21 Apr 08 - 12:22 PM (#2321585) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Harmonium Hero I disagree with the contention that there are (only) two kinds of folkie and, further, with the implication (Mr. Happy and Mr. Red) that folk is not entertaining. Folk used to be inclusive; there was a whole spectrum of performers, from amateur to professional, and also an audience, who were entertained by folk music and dance. There always were those who would proclaim - entirely on their own authority - that "there should be no such thing as a professional folk singer". It seems that the folk world is increasingly polarising, and that tese naysayers are being joined by another group, who despise the amateurs. Where is this leading us? Not anywhere I want to end up. Let me declare my interest. I am a professional folk singer. I am also a dancer, which is an amateur activity - in fact, it costs me money, which I can't really afford. I am entertained by folk music and dance, which is why I've been involved with it for forty years. If there are people who are sufficiently entertained by what I do that they are prepared to pay to listen, I can see no reason why I should not be a professional. Anyone who does not like professional folk entertainment is not obliged to listen. I long for a return to the old days, when, if you so desired, you could go to a folk club and be entertained by a semi-pro resident group, a pro- or semi-pro guest, and some floor singers, who could be either of the aforementioned or complete amateurs. These might not be the best singers you'd ever heard, but it wasn't a contest, and they were entitled to their two songs. And this was all to entertain a group known as 'The Audience' - which could include performers as well as non-performers. There was nothing immoral, improper or sleazy in this, as seems to be implied by certain comments above. In fact, anyone who wants to make sneering comments about this being 'money-driven' is welcome to try doing it for the sort of money I'm earning; I don't think they'd persist for long, and they would realise that there sre some of us - I'm not unique - who have more commitment than that. I agree with The Snail's comment, but things seem increasingly to be dividing into two camps. Why? John Kelly. |
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21 Apr 08 - 12:37 PM (#2321597) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: John MacKenzie They used to say there were only 2 types of MPs, those who are lawyers, and those who aren't, with the latter category being the minority in a certain party. To continue my theme from another thread, I contend that there only 2 types of folkies. Those who are socialists, and those who aren't. With the latter category being in the minority on Mudcat! G ;) |
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21 Apr 08 - 12:52 PM (#2321610) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Harmonium Hero Oh, dear! can't we kwep politics out of this? I, for one, have NO political affiliations, and from experience, I'd guess that, not only am I far from being alone on this, but Giok's contention regarding Mudcatters is probably somewhat awry. I've seen socialists making assunptions like this before and having their eye wiped. John Kelly. |
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21 Apr 08 - 01:00 PM (#2321622) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: John MacKenzie While my post was somewhat tongue in cheek, I firmly believe my contention to be true. One would hope it is possible to discuss political affiliations/leanings, without getting hot under the collar. I certainly don't find it difficult to do so. G |
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21 Apr 08 - 01:23 PM (#2321643) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Artful Codger Hmm, I thought the two kinds were tolerable and intolerable. With a lot in between, of course. ;-} |
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21 Apr 08 - 01:25 PM (#2321648) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: M.Ted My experience has been that there are no passive audients, at least not in any large number, most folkies at least sing(and usually have a guitar or such under the bed) , and given that unaccompanied singing is a mainstream in folk music, everyone is an active participant--that, after all, is what makes it "folk"-- |
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21 Apr 08 - 01:30 PM (#2321654) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Harmonium Hero Giok: I thought we were discussing folk music. John Kelly. |
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21 Apr 08 - 01:30 PM (#2321655) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Acorn4 I'm sort of in the middle - I go to a lot of singarounds/sessions and am quite happy to perform free to other musicians/singers or listeners. I get paid gigs now and then and sell a few CDs which is a bonus to something I do because I enjoy it. If someone's performance has 'character' it can more than make up for technical deficiencies and I think that this is what makes the folk world unique. |
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21 Apr 08 - 01:32 PM (#2321657) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: John MacKenzie Nope, the title says 'folkies John. |
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21 Apr 08 - 01:33 PM (#2321658) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice 'Those who are socialists, and those who aren't. With the latter category being in the minority on Mudcat!" I'm very happy indeed to be in the minority :-) Charlotte R |
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21 Apr 08 - 01:40 PM (#2321670) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: GUEST,padraig Yes. 1. Those who like 32-verse unaccompanied trad songs, and 2. Those who like sets of 32 bar reels/jigs etc Oli and water - "east is east and west is west, and ne'er the twain shall meet" :-) P. |
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21 Apr 08 - 01:42 PM (#2321672) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Harmonium Hero OK - Folkies, then; but the original post was talking about musical activities/ preferences. John Kelly. |
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21 Apr 08 - 01:47 PM (#2321679) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Big Al Whittle Not a socialist! You vill be liquidated ven the revolution comes - you are going on zee list Mrs Clever Clever Bougeois Charlotte View from the Piano Stool woman. Zen Vee vill see who is smiling! It is part of our nine year plan. Zee Virkers aspirations vill not be denied. Composite 13A subsection 6 paragraph 10. I move! |
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21 Apr 08 - 02:19 PM (#2321710) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Jim Carroll Wonder where the collectors, researchers, anthologists - you know, the mike Yates' Roy Palmers' and the like come in all this - or did the tunes and songs just turn up in a basket on the doorstep one morning? Jim Carroll |
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21 Apr 08 - 02:30 PM (#2321728) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: DMcG I would add that you could make a very similar split on most activities: there are those who attend operas and those who perform; those who only attend football matches and those who play in an amateur (or professional!) team ... While I suspect the proportion who folkies who *only* attend is probably lower than most activities,I doubt if it's that far different from some other branches of music. |
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21 Apr 08 - 02:33 PM (#2321735) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: GUEST,Sandra ye Gods - why do you argue so much? Some of my most wonderful moments at festivals have been in a session, in a singaround or dare I say it in a concert. Surely there is room for for us all! And if someone likes singarounds as opposed to concerts or vice versa it doesn't make them a bad person. |
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21 Apr 08 - 02:41 PM (#2321745) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: John MacKenzie Some people need to analyse, pigeonhole, and scoff at others who have a different point of view to theirs. Other like to throw non sequiturs into threads, and watch the fun. G |
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21 Apr 08 - 02:43 PM (#2321749) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: McGrath of Harlow Any time you're at a concert in a festival just look around, and you'll see the people who've been up on stage in other concerts, or who've been playing or singing with you in sessions or singarounds. |
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21 Apr 08 - 03:13 PM (#2321778) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: GUEST,Sandra 'Some people need to analyse, pigeonhole, and scoff at others who have a different point of view to theirs' Well that's not very folkie is it - what ever happened to live and let live, tolerance and kindness. Some of the very people who reckon they have these qualities obviously don't. Come on - lets all be friends. The vast majority of us like similar music or is it back to 'our private little club again' |
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21 Apr 08 - 03:17 PM (#2321783) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Marje I don't see any big argument here, Sandra. Yes of course there's room for us all, but Mr Happy has raised an interesting point. I think it's an observable truth that there are, on the one hand, people who play and sing at sessions and clubs (and possibly, but not necessarily, attend concerts too), and on the other hand, people (probably underrepresented on this forum) who like to attend folk concerts but who don't do any of the participative stuff. I say it's interesting because although those of us who play and sing believe this is what folk music is really about, the concert-goers also contribute to supporting and sustaining the professionals and semi-pros whom many of us value but may do little to support. Here in Devon we are lucky to have regular folk concerts featuring nationally known and respected performers. Some of them do the club circuit, some don't; but I am pretty sure that without the chance to play at big venues that can afford a decent fee, many of them wouldn't survive as professionals. When I go to these concerts I see lots of my regular folkie friends there, but also hundreds of people who never appear at local clubs or sessions. I think that's their loss, and consider myself privileged to be actively involved in singing and playing, but I'm also aware that performing in front of others or even playing along with them is something that simply doesn't appeal to certain people, possibly most people. For them, music is something you listen to - and possibly look at, although it has to be said that most folk artistes and groups do not make a stunning visual spectacle. I think this is simply how things are now, and events organisers need to be able to tap into this market of "passive folkies" to help keep the music commercially viable for the professionals, with knock-on benefits for the rest of us. Oh, and is there some connection between "sinarounds" and that other favourite typo, "snogwriting"? Just wondered. |
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21 Apr 08 - 03:35 PM (#2321809) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: GUEST,Sandra very well put Marje. I can't play an instrument (I have tried several) nor do I sing unless everyone else is and then I love to join in. I do end up feeling a bit of a spare part at sessions without an instrument so I eventually leave. I'm sure there are other concert goers who would like to join in with sessions but can't - they should not be looked down on because of it. |
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21 Apr 08 - 04:17 PM (#2321858) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Ernest Back again: Hi Charlotte: glad to know that I am not alone :) Giok: I have seen what the socialists did to a part of my country - and their nomenclatura never seemed very "folkie" to me. Sandra: better we discuss it here than elsewhere - this talking would be a little annoying at concerts/sessions :) Mr. Happy: taking into account that you say you don`t attend concerts I doubt that festival organizers would consider you a potential customer - why should they cater for you? If you play at sessions/singarounds which take place in pubs I presume it is the publician who should cater for you: you bring customers to him, not to the festival organizer. Best Ernest |
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21 Apr 08 - 04:21 PM (#2321864) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: TheSnail Harmonium Hero I long for a return to the old days, when, if you so desired, you could go to a folk club and be entertained by a semi-pro resident group, a pro- or semi-pro guest, and some floor singers, who could be either of the aforementioned or complete amateurs.... I suppose we all live in our own little bubbles but that's the folk scene that I know. I hadn't realised that it wasn't like that elsewhere. I agree with The Snail's comment, but things seem increasingly to be dividing into two camps. Why? Is there really a problem here? If you want to listen, there are plenty of opportunities, if you want to participate as an amateur there are sessions and clubs where you can do floor spots or,if you're good enough, be the guest. If you want to turn professional, well, I wish you well and, to some extent, envy you. The audiences of listeners, participators and fellow professionals are there. Whether they are there in sufficient numbers to support you is a business decision you have to make for yourself. |
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22 Apr 08 - 02:18 AM (#2322263) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Edgware I think that perhaps there is another kind of 'folkie' that needs to be considered. The kind of person, who likes the music, but loathes the alternative activities that are often associated with what I like to think of as Traditional music. One of the most damaging to the tradition is that over hyped parasitic activity - folk dancing. If i want to listen to folk music performed indifferently I would listen to an LP of the White Heather Club,or something similar. I don't want it masquerading as the genuine article. I was many years ago active as a floor singer both at the EFDSS and at the Singer's Club. I gave up attending clubs on a regular basis as I got disillusioned by the plethora of other activities intruding on my listening pleasure |
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22 Apr 08 - 03:54 AM (#2322291) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Big Al Whittle Edgware Maybe the the 'D' in the EFDSSS should have given you a clue that you would be due an invasion from 'parasites' if you hung around such places. Marje 'Some of them do the club circuit, some don't; but I am pretty sure that without the chance to play at big venues that can afford a decent fee, many of them wouldn't survive as professionals.' A lot of us find the narrow definitions of the traditionalists quite frankly an insult to our intelligence. Folk music that alienates most of the population and folk dances that only diehard enthusiasts perform - a minute portion of the population - is patently a nonsense. A surreal middle class fantatsy - well subsidised - we all know how the middle classes take care of their own. What we have to do, is go out and become jobbing musicians. We play the music which ordinary people demand - wherever its needed. Supply and demand. And that's when we really learn about 'folk' music. |
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22 Apr 08 - 04:22 AM (#2322309) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Marilyn WLD: "What we have to do, is go out and become jobbing musicians. We play the music which ordinary people demand - wherever its needed. Supply and demand. And that's when we really learn about 'folk' music." I swore I would never get involved in one of these discussion but ... I really can't agree with you on this, WLD. I am involved with *folk* music because I love music and love being involved in music making. But I have to like what I'm playing otherwise what's the point in playing it? If I were to play the music which ordinary people demand I would be bored out of my mind and might end up losing my mind (I'm serious here)! I happen to like most (but not all) traditional music and dislike most (but not all) more contemporary stuff. I play what I like and make sure I *appear* to appreciate anything I don't like (out of consideration for the performer) but asking me to *play* what I don't like seems crazy to me. I would very quickly get out of the folk scene altogether! Phew! got steam coming out of my ears - what did you do that to me for? :-) Marilyn |
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22 Apr 08 - 04:27 AM (#2322311) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Folkiedave And there will be some who listen to folkiedave's podcast. Obtainable for ages afterwards. See permathread for details. "Thank Goodness It's Folk" 93.2 FM and http://www.sheffieldlive.org/ |
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22 Apr 08 - 04:36 AM (#2322318) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Folkiedave Sorry - somehow that last post got out of context. As a musically talentless individual I nevertheless enjoy session where I can get the occasional chorus to join in on. I go to festivals and go to concerts and workshops. I go to a number of sessions to listen. I go carolling and have done for over thirty years, where I have learnt ths songs orally. (Traditional singer?) I have done a bit of research and presented its results, review a few records if asked and (now) have a radio programme. I don't do any of these to the mutual exclusion of the others and I do all of them to a greater or lesser extent at different times of the year. So where do I fit in? |
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22 Apr 08 - 04:58 AM (#2322335) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Mr Happy With respect to the first sentence in my initial post, 쳌eIn response to the several 쳌ebickering쳌f threads쳌f, I was attempting to come away from the puerile squabbling into which many 쳌ediscussions쳌f degenerate. In no way was I being judgemental about anyone or their preferences, nor did I list any sort of hierarchy A number of posters have implied that I쳌fve slighted some sections of folkies, re-read my posts carefully, and then post if you find partiality. |
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22 Apr 08 - 06:14 AM (#2322370) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: TheSnail Mr Happy, I hope you don't think I have accused you of being judgemental, I merely question your basic premise that there is a separation between two sorts of folkies. I go to sessions, folk clubs and festivals. At the latter, I go to everything from sessions to concerts. I know many who do the same and many who only do one or two of those. I have seen professionals at sessions and in the audience at concerts. Some live to perform, some will tentatively join in the chorus and everything in between. It is precisely the lack of division into categories that gives folk music its strength. |
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22 Apr 08 - 06:23 AM (#2322376) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: GUEST,Sandra The Snail I couldn't agree more! |
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22 Apr 08 - 06:30 AM (#2322378) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: John MacKenzie Well I don't go to folk clubs, I do go to sessions and festivals, but I don't go to concerts when I'm at those festivals. I very rarely 'do' concerts anyway, I always think folk music of the sort I like is better suited to more intimate surroundings. G |
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22 Apr 08 - 06:41 AM (#2322384) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Mr Happy aha - a kindred spirit! |
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22 Apr 08 - 06:45 AM (#2322387) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: glueman I listen to radio programmes, buy recordings and sometimes go to festivals but I 'consume' folk in the same way as other music forms. I don't think of folk as more real or English or relevant than any other genre and would have trouble going to clubs where members might think it is. I don't want to wear a waistcoat or carry a tankard to listen to folk music any more than I'd wear a leather jacket to listen to rock and roll or a tonic suit to hear soul music. 'Scenes' of all kinds smack of insecurity, if the music is good or challenging that'll do. |
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22 Apr 08 - 06:53 AM (#2322392) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Mr Happy Aha! That's another lot I'd not considered - the folk 'uniformists' Waistcoat, tankard, floral trousers, etc! |
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22 Apr 08 - 06:59 AM (#2322398) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: TheSnail First it was swirly trousers then it was panchromatic trousers now it's floral trousers. How bad can it get? |
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22 Apr 08 - 07:01 AM (#2322399) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Ruth Archer as long as there are no fairy wings... |
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22 Apr 08 - 08:07 AM (#2322441) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: GUEST,Phil in Chorlton ...those who divide folkies into two kinds and those who don't. Next! Seriously, there are so many ways of slicing this particular cake. Among performers, do you sing/play traditional stuff only, or your own stuff, or the dreaded cover versions? Do you consider it a wasted evening if you don't get a floor spot, or are you happy to go and listen? If you go to a singaround, do you hang back/lurk in corners/arrive late or push yourself forward? And so on. It's all mildly interesting but not really worth getting worked up about. I think the only for/against thing I do feel strongly about is amplification. I've sung a couple of times in a club with a PA and stage lighting, and can't be doing with it at all - when you're looking into pitch blackness and listening to the constant rumble of people chatting, it's hard to really feel you've got the audience on your side. This is where a guitar probably comes in handy, if only for drowning out the audience. |
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22 Apr 08 - 09:04 AM (#2322480) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Santa I'm a listener not a performer, due to a distinct lack of musical talent. I go to folk clubs and join in the chorus songs, I go to concerts at festivals but not to singarounds or (shudder) sessions. I don't folk-dance or dress-up. All of which doesn't place me in one of two mutually-exclusive boxes but does place me at one end of a spectrum. Yes, I do feel my "kind" is under-represented on Mudcat but don't feel that is either surprising or anything to be worried about. I have been known to speak out if feeling somehow neglected. My wife was like me but (having rather more musical ability) does go to singarounds, has gone to singing workshops and has turned into a quite acceptable club singer. She's opening for Cloudstreet at the Clarence next month. My daughter - shock horror gasp! - carries her tankard around at folk festivals. So where to place them? I don't see any value in "splitting" folkies into different categories: as the above thread shows they'll only split themselves into different groups that you never thought of in the first place. I certainly don't think that asking questions on Mudcat will help too much in planning for festivals: the Mudcat participants are a sub-group in themselves and not representative. |
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22 Apr 08 - 09:31 AM (#2322502) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Big Al Whittle Interesting that you see a conflict. really its only a different emphasis. To me 'folk' is the key to it. The music, sculpture, dancing, singing, fiddle playing story telling or whatever is tangential. Its a pretty dreary business without the people. I have found. Perhaps you have found differently. Without the people - its just practice. Which is all very nice in its way. But the presence and appreciation of people adds a lot. I really can't remember the last person who wasn't star spotted and made it from the ranks of club performers onto the concert stage. Most of us (for various reasons) aren't. So you've got a choice, become a teacher - or someone with long holidays - or you give it your best shot and become a jobbing musician. And those of us who do that, are different from those whose face fits on the folkscene, and those who do it part time. And it makes you very sceptical about the nature of this folk music business. Patrick Walker of Sheffield, for example, as a fiddler can piss rings round anyone you'll see on the festival stages this year. Check him out any Tuesday night at Fagans - surely one of the best folk/session pubs in England. I don't think I'm saying anything controversial. Most of my friends are dedicated folk musicians, but they earn their bread and butter doing old folks homes, pubs, clubs, restaurants, playing in dance bands, holiday camps, tribute bands - wherever. I suppose when you get round to it. That's the real difference. These concert goers are still giving three hearty cheers for the star system and Mike Harding. The folk grunts/infantry are a bit pissed off with it. |
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22 Apr 08 - 09:58 AM (#2322527) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: glueman Mike Harding a star?!? What kind of insane parallel universe have I drifted into? As for folk sculpture the mind boggles - and not in a good way. |
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22 Apr 08 - 04:50 PM (#2322937) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Marje WLD, you're attributing things to me that I never said. I didn't allude to anything that "alienates most of the population". I was referring to those who make a living by playing at big concerts. The most recent example that was in my mind was Aly Bain and Phil Cunningham who are currently touring. They played in my area to a packed and enthusiastic concert crowd and I hope they went away with enough money to make it worth their while. They also, for what it's worth, entertained some locals after the concert, at the pub where they were staying, for free. I don't think this makes them "elitist" or in any way excludes the wider pulic - on the contrary, by playing at a big venue, they're making their music available to a much wider audience than if they just did the club circuit. Musicians of this calibre deserve to get proper professional fees for what they do, and the economics of it mean that it simply won't be possible for them to get what they're worth by playing to the diehard folkies in clubs. Playing at big concerts also spreads the music much more widely out into the community, which seems like a good thing to me. Marje |
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22 Apr 08 - 05:48 PM (#2323033) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice These concert goers are still giving three hearty cheers for the star system and Mike Harding. The folk grunts/infantry are a bit pissed off with it. Interesting, the media loves to create conflicts where there are none, as well. I attend concerts and I play the folk clubs and a couple of pubs (yes we have them too, here in BC, Canada ;-) ) Oh, and yes, I do the retirement communities, the local children's hospital. No conflict here. Charlotte R |
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22 Apr 08 - 09:08 PM (#2323204) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Suegorgeous Ruth Funny you should say that...I'm performing a couple of folk songs at a small gig this week wearing.....yeh you guessed it....fairy wings (there's a good reason, believe me!) Sue |
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25 Apr 08 - 09:32 AM (#2325304) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Harmonium Hero Snail: Yes, there are still some of what I would call 'traditional' folk clubs, in that they follow the old formula of residents plus guests and/or floor singers. However, there is an increasing tendency for the residents to be a list of regular floor singers, rather than the old-style resident group - usually semi-pro, or sometimes full-time, who would do a proper spot at the beginning of the night, and probably a short spot after the interval, and maybe a finishing song. This gave the club its identity and continuity, and built up a regular audience who would support the club regardless of who was on. Such clubs now seem - from my experience - to be in the minority. The folk 'scene' (awful word; can we find an alternative?) does still - thank God - include everybody from non-participating listeners to professionals, but the 'two camps' I referred to are implicit in earlier posts here: the 'Big Names' syndrome, where festivals and clubs constantly, and - in the case of the clubs - exclusively, book the same monotonous list of stellar performers, and the session/singaround world of those who shun the clubs, concerts and festivals, where you pay to listen to others, whether or not you wish to participate. And the protagonists of each side scorn the other. I do not suggest that the inclusivity of folk music has gone, but that it is going. I also find it srange that there is, as has been suggested (if I interpret correctly) by guest padraig, and stated in no uncertain terms by Edgeware, a separation between the song/music side of things, and dance. They all used to be parts of the whole. I'm sure our ancestors would find this division strange. John Kelly. |
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25 Apr 08 - 09:01 PM (#2325868) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: TheSnail Maybe it's a regional thing but I see no evidence of the 'two camps' around here (Sussex) at least, not in the folk clubs. They all book quality (but not monotonous) guests and there is considerable overlap between them, in both participants and organisers, and the local sessions. Residents from both Lewes clubs are involved with barn dance bands. My experience is that inclusivity has increased enormously. |
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26 Apr 08 - 01:43 PM (#2326339) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: Acorn4 On the question of the "star system", look waht happened to Jasper Carrott - do we all aspire to host naff game shows? |
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26 Apr 08 - 02:50 PM (#2326395) Subject: RE: Folkies: Two Kinds? From: the button "The folk 'scene' (awful word; can we find an alternative?)" Ghetto? *coat already on* |