Pop Goes The Folk Singer

23 Apr 08 - 04:39 PM (#2323543)
Subject: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

As I've said, here, in England and beyond, we are hearing on the air-waves more-and-more over-accompanied, unearthy, belted-out folk singing (even on this England's National Day!), when, to me, quality traditional English-folk sounds at least as good as American pop/rock...and, more importantly, it's OUR OWN.

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23 Apr 08 - 05:35 PM (#2323591)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

England is, along with many other lands, Americanising, and I don't like it - and neither should the American citizens who, themselves, love the world being multicultural. Another sad example is non-Americans singing with a phoney American-accent. (As well as performing folk/rock, some members of The Beatles have even tried talking with an American accent!)

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23 Apr 08 - 05:39 PM (#2323600)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Sorcha

Would you please explain what an 'American' accent is? It might be easier to explain what a 'British' accent is, no?


A Georgia accent is a far cry from a Boston one, just like Londoners don't speak like Brummies.

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23 Apr 08 - 05:44 PM (#2323605)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: jacqui.c

And there are few of us who can't tell the difference between a British and an American, whatever regional accent either might have. Mock accents of any kind are rather ridiculous.

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23 Apr 08 - 05:45 PM (#2323608)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Sorcha

Then there is THIS American who is slowly learning to tell the difference between British accents! LOL

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23 Apr 08 - 05:52 PM (#2323617)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

I said, Sorcha, "an (not THE) American accent"...some also refer to a mid-Atlantic accent, yes?...surely you know what I mean. As for "British," I believe in the English nation and the United Nations, with eco-travel and fair-trade between them.

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23 Apr 08 - 05:55 PM (#2323621)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Sorcha

Actually, no, I don't know what you mean. Euclidate. There's LOTS of American accents. Which one do you mean?????

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23 Apr 08 - 05:57 PM (#2323622)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

I do believe we've seen this tired old scenario before in quite a few threads. Maybe instead of posting the instigator of this particular thread should perhaps get out there and do something about the problem as he sees it. So you don't like this perceived 'Americanisation' of others culture, some people don't have a problem with it, and it's not going to go away in a big hurry.

Personally I don't have a thing against 'folk-rock', I do believe that was the label given to the likes of Fairport Convention et al, and...umm..dare I say this, the source of one of the songs on Liege & Lief isn't even British, it is, I believe, The Appalachian Mountains version of the tale, I refer to Matty Groves. Isidious isn't it how those Americans creep into British culture? *LOL*

Charlotte R

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23 Apr 08 - 07:53 PM (#2323709)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Folkiedave

We should go back to the policy of the Ballad and Blues CLub, often wrongly attributed to Ewan McColl.

"If you were singing from the stage, you sang in a language that you could speak and understand. It didn't matter what you sang in the shower, at parties, while you were ironing or making love. But on stage in The Ballads and Blues Folk Club, you were a representative of a culture - you were interpreting a song that had been created within certain social and artistic parameters."

I think that covers it!!

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24 Apr 08 - 01:49 AM (#2323906)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Escapee

In my experience, the difference between folk and folk-rock is the difference between playing at home and a gig. Even popularized folk music exposes people to folk music. Even when it's less than ideal, it's good to have the music being performed. A mutilated song can recover. A forgotten song is dead.
SKP

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24 Apr 08 - 04:27 AM (#2323967)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper

It's when they start singing them in Australian accents that you've really got to worry.

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24 Apr 08 - 06:30 AM (#2324069)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkkaboutsVerse

I agree to some extent, Viper, and as a repat. (rather than a visitor) from Australia, I've done some work on my pronunciation by, wait for it, listening carefully to two Geordie ex-runners when the athletics is on!
I agree with Folkiedave - except I'd drop "the Blues" as that is another American genre.
To Sorcha...what more can I say?!
To Mole. - is it not sad that the most influential folk album (as voted by BBC listeners) is, as you say, NOT a folk album at all; English traditional music should, again, be compulsory in English schools...a lot just don't know how enjoyable/entertaining it can be.
And I'd like to think that I do indeed "get out there and do something about the problem as he sees it" by participation in festival and club singarounds etc., and have been, just last night e.g., quoted on interactive TV on such matters.
To all - another sad similar case: English Christians worshipping with drum kits, electric guitars, Belgian saxaphones, etc. instead of the olde organ or unaccompanied hymns.

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24 Apr 08 - 06:40 AM (#2324076)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Joe

The Beatles spent a lot of time in America, were influenced by a lot of American music so is it not unexpected that they may slip into the accent a bit?

I couldnt think of a worse way to promote English Folk Music than having enforced singarounds in schools - although that is just my opinion!!! On the other hand, I suppose replacing the usual orchestra stuff with a few folk tunes wouldnt go amiss.

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24 Apr 08 - 06:47 AM (#2324079)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: TheSnail

I couldnt think of a worse way to promote English Folk Music than having enforced singarounds in schools

Best to ban it; then it will really take off.

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24 Apr 08 - 06:51 AM (#2324083)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon

Drop the blues? I think one of the beauties of music is that you can take it and make it your own, which is what had been done to the blues in Britain.

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24 Apr 08 - 06:52 AM (#2324086)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Joe

"Best to ban it; then it will really take off."

ASBOs for Morris Dancers. Again.

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24 Apr 08 - 07:01 AM (#2324090)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

No, Joe - freedom of the cities for Morris and Rapper Dancers!

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24 Apr 08 - 07:09 AM (#2324093)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Shimrod

The Americanisation of British culture has been going on since the 1920s/30s and perhaps before. This is probably because American culture is perceived to be fresh, new and exciting. And let's face it, American culture has given much to the world: Jazz, mainstream cinema, Science Fiction, The Simpsons etc., etc. Unfortunately, they tend to export the worst and seediest aspects of their culture: Fast Food, Rap Music, Drugs 'n Guns etc.

I've also thought that (British) Folk and Rock don't go particularly well together (a bit like liver and strawberry!). And let's dispel the old myth that the Folk Rockers brought lots of people into Folk Music. Perhaps they brought a few but a lot of the ones I meet never seem to have got beyond the stage of thinking that "Steeleye Span wrote 'All Around my Hat'"!

I suppose the thing that dismays me more than the Folk Rock thing is that British policy makers now seem to be incapable of coming up with homegrown policies. Every initiative seems to be a straight copy of an American one. For example, I am the Chair of a local 'Friends of Parks' group but then I discover that the whole 'Friends of Parks' thing is an American idea. And just the other day I spotted a yellow school bus outside my local Primary school (in Manchester) ... I'm sure that there many, many more examples.

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24 Apr 08 - 07:33 AM (#2324108)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie

Most of the pejoratised Folk Rockers were in fact folkies of some sort anyway. I seem to remember Martin Carthy in Steeleye Span, for instance!

And Steeleye Span (and Mike Batt) effectively DID write "All Around my Hat", as it's a conflation of at least two totally different songs and maybe a third tune. They did a similar trick with "The Weaver and the Factory Maid". As did Nic Jones, Swarb, Mr. Carthy, Bert Lloyd, Ewan MacColl, Uncle Tom Cobley etc.

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24 Apr 08 - 07:46 AM (#2324117)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

...Maddy Prior sounds great unaccompanied.
When it comes to American music, I'd genuinely rather listen to the (rarely if ever played by the BBC) chants, drums, and pipes of Amerindians - such as those on my Top Friends.

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24 Apr 08 - 08:14 AM (#2324148)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Big Al Whittle

with friends like you Dave..........

WHY do you feel the need to slag off other peoples approach to folkmusic?

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24 Apr 08 - 08:14 AM (#2324149)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Silver Slug

I'd rather listen to "more-and-more over-accompanied, unearthy, belted-out folk singing" than listen to the (rarely if ever played by the BBC, thank the gods) chants, drums, and pipes of Amerindians. The BBC don't play it because they would end up catering for an audience of one, i.e. you!

I do like to listen to melodies that appeal and lyrics of which I can make sense and if I get the two together then I couldn't give a toss about what accent they are delivered in!

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24 Apr 08 - 08:23 AM (#2324162)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

To SS - you've put bits of quotes together in an odd way...see above.
I answered that above, Weelittledrummer - I do love the world being multiculural, some American pop/rock performeres ARE good/enjoyable musicians but, overall, this Englishman really does prefer Amerindian music.

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24 Apr 08 - 08:36 AM (#2324171)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Joe

Would that be accompanied by the UN to ensure that any cultural boundaries are observed and not crossed?

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24 Apr 08 - 08:44 AM (#2324175)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: TheSnail

weelittledrummer

WHY do you feel the need to slag off other peoples approach to folkmusic?

A very good question, WLD, a very good question indeed.

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24 Apr 08 - 08:59 AM (#2324196)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Big Al Whittle

What you NEVER grasp about me Sarcastic Monsieur Snail. Is that I respect creative endeavour.

I have many friends who make folkmusic in the tradtional vein. Indeed inthe early part of my career I was encoraged and helped in my songwriting by Ewan himself.

I never had at any point had any time for the people who catcalled fred Jordan when he was in a folk package tour with Bert Jansch (who was getting the star treatment at the time).

What really pisses me off is the colossal power that resides in the middle class hands of the traddy gang at this time in history. It starts with the harmless affectation of prats who want to think themselves superior to the common herd. It finishes with the xclusion of the finest voice in English folk music at the moment from the airwaves. Namely - Jack Hudson. His voice is the equal in power timbre and beauty to Fred, and he has given his life to the folkscene.

And the way you lot disregard him is a bloody disgrace.

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24 Apr 08 - 09:23 AM (#2324223)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

Good English folk-timbres: Jim Causely, Martin Carthy, Damien Barber...(several females) Bella Hardy, Ruth Knotman, Jackie Oates, Maddy...

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24 Apr 08 - 09:50 AM (#2324248)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: TheSnail

weelittledrummer

What really pisses me off is the colossal power that resides in the middle class hands of the traddy gang at this time in history.

Gosh, I wish I had power like that but I suppose that being the son of a farm labourer and growing up in tied cottages excludes me.

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24 Apr 08 - 09:51 AM (#2324251)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST

While I don't want to contribute to the main argument on Americanisation; it's a lost cause here in Australia, too, I have seen US authors deploring the loss of American regional accents, and probably it's occurring in places where other languages are spoken, as a concomitant of the saturation coverage of TV, Radio and Movies.

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24 Apr 08 - 10:08 AM (#2324271)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

...and school, Guest - in Aus., long before I repatriated, we learnt American Square Dancing, in the suburbs of an ever-Americanising Sydney...but, to be fair, as I've said in verse, we did also get a good introduction to Aboriginal culture at my schools.

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24 Apr 08 - 12:35 PM (#2324428)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper

If it wasn't for the America all your precious English Culture would have been assimilated by the Third Reich long ago. And wasn't the Baby Boomer folk revival fuelled by an initial passion for skiffling & Dylan & suchlike Americana leading to an appreciation of things closer to home?

The tradition of English folk song extends to wherever they sing English folk songs - which must include America & Australia where such things thrive unabated as they always have done.

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24 Apr 08 - 01:02 PM (#2324454)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

'Tis a complex issue, CV (there was also RVW, Bert Lloyd, Ewan MacColl, etc.) - one thing I'm very sure of: the future will be better if the UN/UNESCO becomes a lot stronger.

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24 Apr 08 - 01:19 PM (#2324470)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer

Walkaboutsverse, how does RVW relate to the "baby boomer folk revival"? And I suggest you familiarise yourself a bit more with Bert Lloyd's collecting and history.

And Sharp's collecting in Appalachia.

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24 Apr 08 - 01:27 PM (#2324480)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

I said, Ruth - "there was ALSO" and "etc." Percy Grainger was another...(You think as babies boomed it was folk-year-zero?!)

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24 Apr 08 - 01:51 PM (#2324509)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper

What's the UN/UNESCO got to do with anything?

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24 Apr 08 - 02:05 PM (#2324518)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

To combat globalisation/encourage a nice multicultural world (including trad English culture) in a peaceful way, CV.

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24 Apr 08 - 02:08 PM (#2324521)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer

WAV, your name-checking of collectors doesn't actually seem to refer to anything. Remind me if you had a point?

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24 Apr 08 - 02:09 PM (#2324522)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer

As long as there's no cultural integration or immigration, right, WAV?

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24 Apr 08 - 02:10 PM (#2324523)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Peter Beta

Ah, live and let live. Those that can, do....

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24 Apr 08 - 02:23 PM (#2324537)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

1: Factors other than skiffle, Ruth; and, 2, there should be eco-travel, fair-trade and understanding between the nations, via the UN, in order to "live and let live" (Peter Beta).

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24 Apr 08 - 02:42 PM (#2324557)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: M.Ted

If you don't like American folk music, Walkabout, why are you posting on an American Folk Music forum?

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24 Apr 08 - 03:06 PM (#2324582)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

Ummmm...skiffle...well I'm MUCH too young to remember skiffle, but I love the music none-the-less, same as I love folk, same as I love gospel, the list goes on, and you know, the nationality of the music doesn't matter one iota to me, heck I'm a walking United Nations, one quarter Welsh, one quarter Scots and half North American Aboriginal. No Borders as far s I'm concerned...oh except racism and racists, I detest it and them.

Cultural integration...no problem!

Charlotte R

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24 Apr 08 - 03:11 PM (#2324586)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

I never said that M.Ted - I said, rather, I don't like English, Swedish, Irish etc. going all American with their performances; AND that American citizens who, themselves, love our world being multicultural should not like it either. (The late great Eva Cassidy, e.g., is also on my Top Friends!)

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24 Apr 08 - 03:27 PM (#2324604)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer

"2, there should be eco-travel, fair-trade and understanding between the nations"

BUT no cultural integration or immigration. Right?


RVW and Percy Grainger were an alternative to skiffle? Okaaaaay...

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24 Apr 08 - 03:33 PM (#2324614)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

"To Mole. - is it not sad that the most influential folk album (as voted by BBC listeners) is, as you say, NOT a folk album at all;"

Funny, that's NOT what I said at all. What I, infact, said was that one of the tracks on Liege & Lief isn't even British...oh and Liege & Lief not being folk...folk rock is what I said, and I LOVE the album, so please don't put words in my mouth to make it appear I agree with you, because I don't, so please get used to that.

'WAV, your name-checking of collectors doesn't actually seem to refer to anything. Remind me if you had a point? '

Ruth I've generally found that WAV's threads tend to be none too thinly disguised infomercials for his poetry website and his Mysapace space. :-)

Charlotte R

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24 Apr 08 - 03:52 PM (#2324634)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WlkaboutsVerse

Yes, M.: you said folk-rock NOT folk, and I agreed - it's not a folk-album...it may be the most influential folk-rock album ever...?..nomenclature...What influenced me a lot was a tape I purchased just after first turning up at a folk club 4 years ago - Voices: English traditional songs - full of good unaccompanied earthy in-tune folk-singing.

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24 Apr 08 - 04:01 PM (#2324643)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer

Charlotte: oh yeah. But I Walkabout right on by that particular car crash. :)

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24 Apr 08 - 04:05 PM (#2324650)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

sorry..your jingoism is starting to drive me up a wall. Ruth Archer, at least is working towards keeping the tradition alive with her work, you..you simply spout phrases and ideas that were out-dated a very long time ago , so very Daily Mail and cosy "more tea, vicar?".

As Ruth said....'As long as there's no cultural integration or immigration, right, WAV?'

Charlotte R

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24 Apr 08 - 04:12 PM (#2324658)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon

Yes, multiculturalism as long as it stays away from MY culture.

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24 Apr 08 - 04:45 PM (#2324685)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

By practising your culture, Volgadon, whilst appreciating others you help keep the world nice and multicultural.

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24 Apr 08 - 05:03 PM (#2324697)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,albert

A comment on the use of the word "British"...as a welshman I dont hear too much welsh language songs or music on our national or local radio stations .
But as one of my distant neanderthal forefathers might have said about his neighbour over the hill and far away
"Brrr those b****y cro magons coming here with their new fangled songs and cave paintings.What's the matter with a decent bit of neanderthal culture I say!!"
albert

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24 Apr 08 - 06:49 PM (#2324778)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer

Hey, Charlotte - looks like we're the same person! Who knew? We could have avoided all those scraps!

I wonder which of us is the pompous, self-regarding misanthrope? I'm guessing me. Hurrah!

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24 Apr 08 - 08:34 PM (#2324856)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: M.Ted

You said this, which seems clear: "When it comes to American music, I'd genuinely rather listen to the (rarely if ever played by the BBC) chants, drums, and pipes of Amerindians - such as those on my Top Friends. "

Curious what you think of this Native American Pop/Folksong

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24 Apr 08 - 10:43 PM (#2324939)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ythanside

'this England's National Day!'
'OUR OWN.'

Can anyone else hear Laurence Olivier shouting his way through Henry V?
No? Just me, then. Oh well.

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25 Apr 08 - 03:28 AM (#2325028)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: goatfell

I copeied this from the interweb for our ENGLISH friends and their pals, to remind them that they belong to BRITIAN

Great Britain
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Not to be confused with United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
For an explanation of terms such as "Great Britain", "British", "United Kingdom", "England", "Scotland" and "Wales", see British Isles (terminology). For other uses, see Great Britain (disambiguation).
See also: Kingdom of Great Britain
Great Britain

Great Britain lies between Ireland and mainland Europe
Geography
Location Western Europe
Archipelago British Isles
Area 80,823 sq mi (209,331 km²)
Highest point Ben Nevis
1344 m
Administration
United Kingdom
Home Nations England
Scotland
Wales
Largest city London
Demographics
Population 58,845,700 (as of 2006)[1]
Indigenous people Cornish, English, Scots, Welsh, others

Satellite Image of Great BritainGreat Britain (Scottish Gaelic: Breatainn Mhòr, Welsh: Prydain Fawr) is the largest island of the British Isles, the largest island in Europe and the eighth-largest island in the world. It lies to the northwest of Continental Europe, with Ireland to the west, and makes up the largest part of the territory of the state known as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It is surrounded by over 1,000[citation needed] smaller islands and islets.

The historic nations of England, Scotland and the principality of Wales are mostly situated on the island, along with their capital cities, London, Edinburgh and Cardiff respectively.

Contents [hide]
1 Geographical definition
2 Political definition
3 History
4 Use and nomenclature
4.1 Use of the term Great Britain
4.2 Nomenclature
4.3 Derivation of 'Great'
5 Capital cities
6 Other major settlements
7 Offshore islands
8 References
9 External links



[edit] Geographical definition
Great Britain is the largest island of the British Isles. It lies to the northwest of Continental Europe, with Ireland to the west, and makes up the larger part of the territory of the United Kingdom. It is surrounded by 1000 smaller islands and islets. It occupies an area of 209,331 km² (80,823 square miles)[2]

It is the third most populous island after Java and Honshū.[3]

Great Britain stretches over about ten degrees of latitude on its longer, north–south axis. Geographically, the island is marked by low, rolling countryside in the east and south, while hills and mountains predominate in the western and northern regions. Before the end of the last ice age, Great Britain was a peninsula of Europe; the rising sea levels caused by glacial melting at the end of the ice age caused the formation of the English Channel, the body of water which now separates Great Britain from continental Europe at a minimum distance of 21 miles (34 km).


[edit] Political definition
Main article: Kingdom of Great Britain
"Great Britain" is the Eastern Island of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Politically, "Great Britain" describes the combination of England, Scotland, and Wales, and therefore also includes a number of outlying islands such as the Isle of Wight, Anglesey, the Isles of Scilly, the Hebrides, and the island groups of Orkney and Shetland, but does not include other outlying islands such as the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands.[citation needed]

Great Britain evolved politically into a union of England and Scotland from a personal union in 1603 with the Union of Crowns under James VI of Scotland. The political union that merged the two countries happened with the Acts of Union in 1707 which merged the parliaments of each nation and thus resulted in the formation of the Kingdom of Great Britain, which covered the entire island. In turn, in 1801, an Act of Union between Great Britain and Ireland created the larger United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (UK). The UK became the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in 1922 following the independence of five-sixths of Ireland as the Irish Free State.


[edit] History
Traces of early man have been found in Great Britain from some 700,000 years ago and modern man from about 30,000 years ago. Up until about 9,000 years ago, Great Britain was joined to Ireland. As recently as 8,000 years ago Great Britain was joined to the continent. The southeastern part of Great Britain was still connected by a strip of low marsh to the European mainland in what is now northeastern France. In Cheddar Gorge near Bristol, the remains of animal species native to mainland Europe such as antelopes, brown bears, and wild horses have been found alongside a human skeleton, Cheddar Man, dated to about 7150 B.C. Thus, animals and humans must have moved between mainland Europe and Great Britain via a crossing.[4]

The island of Great Britain formed at the end of the Pleistocene ice age when sea levels rose due to isostatic depression of the crust and the melting of glaciers. The island was first inhabited by people who crossed over the land bridge from the European mainland. Its Iron Age inhabitants are known as the Brythons, a group speaking a Celtic language, and most of it (not the northernmost part) was conquered to become the Ancient Roman province of Britannia. After the fall of the Roman Empire, over a period of 500 years, the Brythons of the south and east of the island of Britain became assimilated by colonising Germanic tribes (Angles, Saxons and Jutes) who became known as the English people. Beyond Hadrian's wall, the major ethnic groups were the Scots, who may have emigrated from Ireland, and the Picts as well as other Brythonic peoples in the south-west. The south-east of Scotland was colonised by the Angles and formed, until 1018, a part of the Kingdom of Northumbria. To speakers of Germanic languages, the Brythons were called Welsh, a term that came eventually to be applied exclusively to the inhabitants of what is now Wales, but which survives also in names like Wallace. In subsequent centuries Vikings settled in several parts of the island, and The Norman Conquest introduced a French ruling élite who also became assimilated.

Since the union of 1707, the entire island has been one political unit, firstly as the Kingdom of Great Britain, later as part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and then as part of the present United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Since the formation of this unified state, the adjective British has come to refer to things associated with the United Kingdom generally, such as citizenship, and not the island of Great Britain.

The term was used officially for the first time during the reign of King James VI of Scotland, I of England. Though England and Scotland each remained legally in existence as separate countries with their own parliaments, on 20 October 1604 King James proclaimed himself as 'King of Great Brittaine, France and Ireland', a title that continued to be used by many of his successors.[5] In 1707, an Act of Union joined both parliaments. That Act used two different terms to describe the new all island nation, a 'United Kingdom' and the 'Kingdom of Great Britain'. However, the former term is regarded by many as having been a description of the union rather than its formal name at that stage. Most reference books therefore describe the all-island kingdom that existed between 1707 and 1800 as the "Kingdom of Great Britain".

In 1801, under a new Act of Union, this kingdom merged with the Kingdom of Ireland, over which the monarch of Great Britain had ruled. The new kingdom was from then onwards unambiguously called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. In 1922, 26 of Ireland's 32 counties attained independence to form a separate Irish Free State. The remaining truncated kingdom has therefore since then been known as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.


[edit] Use and nomenclature

[edit] Use of the term Great Britain
"Great Britain" is often used to mean the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" (UK). However, Great Britain is only the largest island within the United Kingdom; still within the United Kingdom, but not on the island of Great Britain are several much smaller surrounding islands, as well as Northern Ireland in the island of Ireland. In the introduction to his history book The Isles, Norman Davies explains how confusion persists about what "Great Britain" and the "United Kingdom" actually denote in even some eminent educational institutions.[6]

Terms associated with Great Britain – such as Britain or British – are generally used as short forms for the United Kingdom or its citizens respectively.

Great Britain and its abbreviations GB and GBR are used in some international codes as a synonym for the United Kingdom, largely due to potential confusion with "UA" or "UKR" for Ukraine[7][original research?]. Examples include: Universal Postal Union, the International Olympic Committee, international sports teams, NATO, the International Organization for Standardization, and other organisations. (See also country codes, international licence plate codes, and technical standards such as the ISO 3166 geocodes GB and GBR.)

On the Internet, .uk is used as a country code top-level domain for the United Kingdom. A .gb top-level domain was also used to a limited extent in the past, but this is now effectively in abeyance because the domain name registrar will not take new registrations. Ireland has its own separate Internet code, .ie, which can be used in both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.


[edit] Nomenclature
The name Britain is derived from the name Britannia, used by the Romans from circa 55 BC and increasingly used to describe the island which had formerly been known as insula Albionum, the "island of the Albions".[8] Albion (Alouion in Ptolemy) is sometimes used now to refer to England specifically. Occasionally, it refers to Scotland, which is called Alba in Gaelic, Albain in Irish, and Yr Alban in Welsh. Pliny the Elder in his Natural History (iv.xvi.102) applies it unequivocally to Great Britain.

The name Britannia derived from the travel writings of the ancient Greek Pytheas around 320 BC, which described various islands in the North Atlantic as far North as Thule (probably Iceland) [9]. Although Pytheas' own writings do not survive, later Greek writers described the islands as the αι Βρεττανιαι or the Brittanic Isles.[8][10] The peoples of these islands of Prettanike were called the Πρεττανοι, Priteni or Pretani.[8] These names derived from a Celtic name which is likely to have reached Pytheas from the Gauls, who may have used it as their term for the inhabitants of the islands.[10][11] Priteni is the source of the Welsh language term Prydain, Britain, which has the same source as the Goidelic term Cruithne used to refer to the early Brythonic speaking inhabitants of Ireland and the north of Scotland.[10] The latter were later called Picts or Caledonians by the Romans.

During Roman times, the term Britannia was applied to the Roman province of Britain, which occupied most of the island of Great Britain, and to the island as a whole.

(See British Isles (terminology) for further discussion of etymology).


[edit] Derivation of 'Great'
Great Britain may well be a calque of the French term Grande Bretagne, which is used in France to distinguish Britain from Brittany (in French: Bretagne). Since the English court and aristocracy was largely French-speaking for about two centuries after the Norman Conquest of 1066, the French term may have naturally passed into English usage.

In Geoffrey of Monmouth's pseudohistorical Historia Regum Britanniae (circa 1136), the island of Great Britain was referred to as Britannia major ("Greater Britain"), to distinguish it from Britannia minor ("Lesser Britain"), the continental region which approximates to modern Brittany.

The term "Bretayne the grete" was also used by chroniclers, as early as 1338[citation needed], but it was not used officially until James I proclaimed himself "King of Great Britain" on 20 October 1604 to avoid the more cumbersome title "King of England and Scotland". Sources such as the New Oxford American Dictionary (NOAD) define Great Britain as "England, Wales, and Scotland considered as a unit" and Britain as "an island that consists of England, Wales, and Scotland." Thus, Britain is the name of the island, while Great Britain is the name of the geopolitical unit. NOAD advises that while Britain "is broadly synonymous with Great Britain ... the longer form is usual for the political unit." However, in the United Kingdom itself, "Britain" is usually taken to be synonymous with the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland [12].

In Irish, Wales is referred to as An Bhreatain Bheag which means, literally, Little Britain, although a truer translation would be Britain Minor. On the other hand, the closely-related language, Scottish Gaelic, uses the term, A'Bhreatainn Bheag, to refer to Brittany.


[edit] Capital cities
England: London - also capital of the United Kingdom and formerly the Kingdom of Great Britain
Wales: Cardiff
Scotland: Edinburgh

[edit] Other major settlements
England: Birmingham, Blackpool, Bradford, Brighton, Bristol, Cambridge, Colchester, Coventry, Derby, Doncaster, Exeter, Gloucester, Huddersfield, Hull, Ipswich, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, Manchester, Middlesbrough, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Northampton, Norwich, Nottingham, Oxford, Plymouth, Portsmouth, Preston, Reading, Sheffield, Southampton, Stoke-on-Trent, Sunderland, Swindon, Wolverhampton, York.
Wales: Newport, Swansea, Wrexham.
Scotland: Aberdeen, Ayr, Dumfries, Dundee, Glasgow, Inverness, Perth, Stirling,

[edit] Offshore islands
List of islands of England
List of islands of Scotland
List of islands of Wales

[edit] References
^ Population of England, Scotland, and Wales. National Statistics mid-2006 Population estimates. Published 22 August 2007.
^ United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) ISLAND DIRECTORY TABLES "ISLANDS BY LAND AREA". Retrieved from http://islands.unep.ch/Tiarea.htm on August 25, 2006.
^ See Geohive.com Country data; Japan Census of 2000; United Kingdom Census of 2001. The editors of List of islands by population appear to have used similar data from the relevant statistics bureaux, and totalled up the various administrative districts that comprise each island, and then done the same for less populous islands. An editor of this article has not repeated that work. Therefore this plausible and eminently reasonable ranking is posted as unsourced common knowledge.
^ Lacey, Robert. Great Tales from English History. New York: Little, Brown and Company, 2004. ISBN 0-316-10910-X.
^ Proclamation styling James I King of Great Britain on October 20, 1604
^ Davies, Norman (1990) The Isles. A History. Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-513442-7
^ Ukraine has ISO 3166 codes UA and UKR
^ a b c Snyder, Christopher A. (2003). The Britons. Blackwell Publishing. ISBN 0-631-22260-X.
^ "See summary of Pytheas' Voyage" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pytheas#Voyage
^ a b c Foster (editor), R F; Donnchadh O Corrain, Professor of Irish History at University College Cork: (Chapter 1: Prehistoric and Early Christian Ireland) (1 November 2001). The Oxford History of Ireland. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-280202-X.
^ Encyclopedia of the Celts: Pretani
^ B | Style guide | guardian.co.uk

[edit] External links
Interactive map of Great Britain
Coast – the BBC explores the coast of Great Britain
Administrative map of Great Britain – from the Ordnance Survey; various formats
BBC Nations
The British Isles
CIA Factbook United Kingdom
[hide]v • d • eThe British Isles
Terminology · Naming dispute · Islands of the North Atlantic (IONA)
Politics Sovereign states and
constituent countries Ireland · United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (UK, consisting of England · Northern Ireland · Scotland · Wales)
British Crown
dependencies Guernsey · Jersey · Isle of Man
Political cooperation British-Irish Council · British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body · Common Travel Area · North/South Ministerial Council

Geography Island groups Channel Islands · Islands of the Clyde · Great Britain · Hebrides · Ireland · Isle of Man · Isles of Scilly · Northern Isles (Orkney · Shetland)
Lists of islands of Ireland · Isle of Man · United Kingdom (England · Scotland · Wales)

History Current states and
dependencies Ireland · United Kingdom (England · Northern Ireland · Scotland · Wales)
Guernsey · Jersey · Isle of Man
Former states Kingdom of England · Kingdom of Scotland · Kingdom of Ireland · Principality of Wales · Kingdom of Great Britain · United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland · Irish Free State

Society Modern languages Auregnais · BSL · Cornish · English · French · Guernésiais · Irish · ISL · Jèrriais · Manx · NISL · Scots (Ulster) · Scottish Gaelic · Sercquiais · Welsh
Peoples British · Celts · Cornish · English · Irish · Irish Traveller · Manx · Scottish · Ulster-Scots · Welsh


Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain"

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25 Apr 08 - 03:32 AM (#2325030)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: goatfell

and then when us Scots, Welsh amd Northern Irish have to say to people fro other countries NO WE'RE NOT FROM ENGLAND BUT BRITIAN/SCOTLAND, WALES OR NORTHERN IRLEAND and the the British flag is red white and blue and the English flag is red and white.

but hey that's the truth.

---

25 Apr 08 - 03:37 AM (#2325034)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: goatfell

but as I said on the 23rd of April, I wish you all a happy St George's day

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25 Apr 08 - 03:51 AM (#2325043)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Sugwash

Thanks Arran; and they say that we English are patronising.

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25 Apr 08 - 04:31 AM (#2325070)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

That YouTube video is, of course, the fusion of 2 American genres - modern/mainstream and traditional/Amerindian...sounds okay to me, but I do hope other Amerindians keep it trad.
To Ythanside - from William Shakespeare's Claudio, within Measure for Measure, "Liberty, as surfeit, is the father of much fast."

---

25 Apr 08 - 06:25 AM (#2325135)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: goatfell

well we do havbe joke in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and that is anyone from England to comes to these countries we say WELCOME TO BRITIAN

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25 Apr 08 - 06:31 AM (#2325138)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Jack Blandiver

Has the world ever been nice & multicultural I wonder? A swift browse through my history book (I only ever had the one owing to fiscal difficulties in early childhood) reveals quite the opposite, with human beings fucking each other over at every turn whilst at the same time managing to create great cultural works often (usually) at the expense of the culture they just fucked over. Just look at our Great British Cathedrals.

The culture of England is the result of 10,000 years of invasion, immigration and assimilation, a process which (thank God) continues to this day & will continue for as long as humanity inhabits planet earth. Culture is a process, as dynamic as it is inevitable, the consequence on the baser mechanisms & motives of humanity as a political whole necessitating the migrations which result in the multi-ethnic England we know and love today. Whatever its problems might be, or however much reactionary racist scape-goating goes on, fact is - it's here to stay. So best accept it for what it is, rather than what certain individuals might think it ought to be, because whilst their alternative is quite unthinkable, it nevertheless remains entirely possible.

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25 Apr 08 - 06:32 AM (#2325139)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

I believe in the English nation and the United Nations, and have enjoyed my VISITS to the other nations mentioned by Arran, just above.

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25 Apr 08 - 06:42 AM (#2325142)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Banjiman

Now, just remind me, where did American culture come from any way? There's quite a lot of English (and other British) in there anyway....

I love (some) American Music (and most British Folk music as well).

Do you not think that some of the most exciting music comes from a fusion of cultures?


But don't get me started on MacDonald's.......

paul

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25 Apr 08 - 06:49 AM (#2325147)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ernest

And isn`t the USA always described as the great melting-pot?

Wouldn`t that be multicultural?

Looks like some people favouring multiculturalism don`t like it when it comes to reality.

Best
Ernest

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25 Apr 08 - 07:48 AM (#2325200)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

That's definitely NOT the case, Sedayne - spend half a day and read my life's work walkaboutsverse.741.com: I've studied humanities, travelled, on a shoe-string, through about 40 countries, and DO love THE WORLD being multicultural...but the idea of having a multiple number of cultures living under the one state-law should be questioned - and increasing in England, e.g., is being questioned (recent programmes on the BBC and Channel 4, etc.).

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25 Apr 08 - 08:30 AM (#2325240)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,JM

OK - I'm just going to say it - going by your definition of multicultural (everyone keeps to their own marked territory and makes sure their culture remains static and unchanging) I DON'T want a multicultural world. Globalisation can be a good thing in many ways, and the sooner that we approach monoculturalism and recognise that we are all just exactly the same as each other the better.

Do you consider yourself British WAV? At what point did you cease to be Australian? What constitutes belonging to a place anyway? THAT is just nomenclature, if anything.

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25 Apr 08 - 09:06 AM (#2325280)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

It's in the above-mentioned life's work, and within this here link, JM - I see myself as English not British/I don't like imperialism; I was (highly) trained in Aus. but, as I'm a repat. and not a visitor from Aus. to England, I actively try to be (old-fashioned) English...worked on pronunciation, further formal study here, read widely from the anthology of English verse, practise English folk and hymns, keep fit with Lawn (not Real) Tennis, etc.
Now some questions for you - do you really want us all to blend into the one bland capitalist culture?...is that the only way to have a peaceful world?...what about this stonger UN with eco-travel and fair-trade rather than yet more conquest and immigration I, and increasingly others, have proposed?

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25 Apr 08 - 09:17 AM (#2325285)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: M.Ted

For what it's worth, Jim Pepper was a jazz musician--and I think he preferred "Native American"--"Traditions"exist because they are adaptable, and he was able to find a way to adapt what had come to him into a form that could continue--that's what it's about--

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25 Apr 08 - 09:20 AM (#2325288)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Joe

No, lets all stay in our culturally defined barriers - now where would that be? Oh, no, sorry, we cant because culture does not have geographical barriers!

Noone wants a monocultural world, but by strictly sticking to our own cultural groups, music wont evolve, and cultures will effectively die out. Look at the influences of the more successful folk performers out there .... the combination of songs from 'source singers'combined with music influenced from around the world creates fresh new sounds that are still distinctive. (Bellowhead for example)I dont see this as the path to monoculturalism.

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25 Apr 08 - 09:21 AM (#2325290)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Andrez

Yep, just as I suspected, discussions of this kind:

< the idea of having a multiple number of cultures living under the one state-law should be questioned>

are really code calling for support for a perspective or point of view about society that is at its core racist..... pure and simple!

An ex politician in my country recently made a big deal about returning back to "traditional values". The outcome of this was the denial of basic human rights to people fleeing cruel and oppressive regimes of many kinds by imprisoning them for years offshore before exporting them back to where they came from. All this in the name of keeping values and of course the country "pure" and "white" and "anglo-saxon/christian in values. The fact that the country is made up of immigrants exclusively plus a few locals who were there before the immigrants, was conveniently ignored, but the proposition and supporting arguments were used to promote fairly nasty right wing, conservative political ideologies and social policies. The same thing seems to be happening in the UK as well.

Further-more, "a multiple number of cultures living under the one state-law" ..... this is usually called society, something that basically represents the context of our lives in whatever country we are living in or born into and basically just have to deal with as part of our lives.

So "Walkabout" or David Franks, how about being a little bit more upfront with your values and beliefs instead of making oblique references to the social situation in the UK and suggesting that something is not OK about it. I suspect that Enoch Powells views would resonate well with your value set!

Personally I dont care if you do choose to hold these beliefs, you are entitled to that in a democracy. Just understand that it is just one point of view and dont expect to have other people agree with you.

Cheers,

Andrez

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25 Apr 08 - 09:45 AM (#2325319)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

If you check all I've published, Andrez, you'll see that I have NOT ctriticized any particular culture or race (far from it), but have repeatedly questioned the act of immigration itself - from now on, that is - having considered the 3 main possibilities raised above:
>all blend into one (capitalist) culture
>multicultural nations
>or a multicultural world of United Nations - i.e., positive nationalism with respect for indigenous folk, fair-trade, etc.

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25 Apr 08 - 10:02 AM (#2325347)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Jack Blandiver

The problem, as I see it, is one of ideology as oppose to actuality, which is to say the England of your average mono-culturalists dreaming is very different from the England of the multi-cultural, multi-ethnic reality.

To entertain any notion contrary to this actuality is to question some very basic principles of human rights, which really doesn't really bear thinking about, especially given that people who dream of a mono-cultural England wouldn't hesitate to implement the extreme & inhumane measures necessary to achieve their particular gleaming white utopia.

Such thinking is racist by default no matter how much one might bang about loving a nice multicultural world. Most racists do love a multicultural world - it's a classic piece of racist rhetoric, to support their twisted notions of well defined cultural & ethnic boundaries wherein everyone sticks to their own 'traditional music' with the zeal of the racially pure nationalist. That vision is entirely racist - it's also not going to happen, never in a million years, so what's the point of even bothering?

Such visions of mono-cultural mono-racial volkishness are fascistic fantasies founded entirely on a complete misunderstanding of English (and World) culture as it exists today. Such ideas exist contrary to human interest, and must, therefore, be opposed wherever they raise their nasty little mindless heads.

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25 Apr 08 - 10:03 AM (#2325349)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Joe

So, coming from the South of England, should I not be allowed to move to America or Australia on the basis that I have no historical connection? What about Sctoland, or the border of scotland? or Yorkshire? or the village down the road?

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25 Apr 08 - 10:05 AM (#2325351)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Rich

Somethin Banjiman touched on, funny how everyone seems happy with folk and american being mutually exclusive. I'm not sure Harry Smith would agree.

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25 Apr 08 - 10:06 AM (#2325354)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Grab

Play your own culture's music...

So bye-bye Django Reinhardt and Stephan Grappelli, no more Bob Dylan or Paul Simon, forget about Bob Brozman. Not to mention Yo-Yo Ma, the brothers Marsalis, or any other black or Asian musicians playing Western classical music. Or any English musicians playing Irish, Scottish, Cape Breton or Old-Time tunes. Burn their music, bust their instruments - these infidels must pay for their crimes!

Thanks, but no. I'd rather listen to good music, regardless of the ethnic origin of the song or the singer, or indeed the style of singing. For me, good music is about songs that are lyrically and musically interesting, delivered in a way that says something original instead of merely playing the notes or recycling someone else's version. I don't give a damn whether the musician is black, white, English, American, or a little green man from Mars, so long as the music's good.

If you want to rail against something, rail against poor interpretation of folk songs. The important fact is that folk songs done well are at least as good as any pop song, and on that I'm entirely with you. But whether it's "our own" should be a matter of supreme indifference for anyone whose concern is the quality of music.

Graham.

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25 Apr 08 - 10:17 AM (#2325365)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

In my opinion, VISIT other nations, Joe - as a respectful tourist - and appreciate your England and it's own good culture. Saying "Yorkshire", of course, raises another matter - regionalism. I like, as I say, positive nationalsim with a bit of regionalism, and don't mind if you move to Yorkshire or the NE of England.

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25 Apr 08 - 11:19 AM (#2325416)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Jack Blandiver

and appreciate your England and it's own good culture

Which out of necessity must include the cultures of all the immigrant communities & minorities currently domiciled in our green & pleasant land, thus enriching the very notion of Englishness.

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25 Apr 08 - 11:26 AM (#2325420)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Joe

Sorry but when appreciating ENglish music, listening solely to folk songs unaccompanied, except maybe a simple melody, sung in an earthly timbre would soon get a little annoying. Give me a good disco sea shanty any day!!!!!

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25 Apr 08 - 11:26 AM (#2325421)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Banjiman

"Which out of necessity must include the cultures of all the immigrant communities & minorities currently domiciled in our green & pleasant land, thus enriching the very notion of Englishness. "

Gets my vote!

Paul

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25 Apr 08 - 11:28 AM (#2325422)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

I/we "fight" with words, Sedayne, but sadly some members of those "immigrant communities & minorities" use other tactics for what they want - which is not "Englishness"/Anglicises..?!

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25 Apr 08 - 11:36 AM (#2325429)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Banjiman

"I/we "fight" with words, Sedayne, but sadly some members of those "immigrant communities & minorities" use other tactics for what they want - which is not "Englishness"/Anglicises..?! "

That is racist, you have just been expelled from my MySpace friends.

Do you really believe that it is only "immigrant communities & minorities" who use tactics other than words to get what they want.....please open your eyes.

Paul

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25 Apr 08 - 11:46 AM (#2325441)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

I said "some members" NOT "all members" so you ARE wrong/misled to use the R-word, Paul. I admit that saying ALL MEMBERS would be racist - but I didn't, and you should apologise. And most people now at least realize that there IS a difference between questioning future immigration and being a racist.

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25 Apr 08 - 12:34 PM (#2325504)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

Yes, Ruth I think we are, but sometimes it takes going around the long way to find out :-)

Being half Amerindian, actually the correct term is North American Aboriginal or better still First Nations we do know all about keeping it traditional, without intervention thank you very much...oh..and by the way those of you familiar with the Canadian/American outfit The Band (definitely not folk, though with folk influences) will perhaps know that the lead guitarist, Robbie Robertson is also part North American aboriginal, so you see his musical horizons are wide indeed.

Charlotte R

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25 Apr 08 - 12:51 PM (#2325518)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer

Well well...and we finally got here. WAV has been having this exact same conversation on folk forums, with the same tedious phrases about the UN and shoestrings and eco-tourism, for years - it's like something out of Beckett.

But we always come to the same place, which is people recognising him for the racist and bigot he is. HE doesn't realise he is, of course, because he doesn't acknowledge that the politics of segregation and "send 'em all back" and "we fight with words, but they fight with bombs" is racism.

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25 Apr 08 - 01:00 PM (#2325531)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Banjiman

WAV, I will not apologise....your words here look racist to me. What else would you call it?

Paul

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25 Apr 08 - 01:05 PM (#2325539)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

If I could be bothered to search them out, on one thread WAV stated that he supported some of the BNP's policies and on another thread stated he was 'left-wing' Anyone even entertaining supporting the BNP and its policies is definitely no left winger... I definitely wouldn't fit in to WAV's pretty picture of England *LOL*

Charlotte R

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25 Apr 08 - 01:09 PM (#2325544)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

Those are NOT my quotes and "the racist and bigot he is" (Ruth Archer) is false and defamatory. Search through these forums that you mention, or my above websites, and you will not find anything of the sort - I've repeatedly questioned immigration but have NOT criticized any particular culture/race. It took a while for the R-word to be used this time, because more people, as I just said, are realizing there IS difference between questioning immigration and being racist.
And you, too, should apolgise, Ruth.

---

25 Apr 08 - 01:28 PM (#2325558)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Peter Beta

Easier said than done, WAV, but trust me: don't feed the trolls.

And keep up the good work.

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25 Apr 08 - 01:41 PM (#2325570)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: The Sandman

Walkabout,you remind me of Cumberland Clark.

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25 Apr 08 - 01:54 PM (#2325582)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

I just put that into google and found Venice and Harrogate, etc...which, kindly, Cumberland Clark, Captain?

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25 Apr 08 - 01:56 PM (#2325586)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer

No, I shouldn't. Racism takes many guises. I believe your politics of separatism, cultural insularity and purity, and anti-immigration constitue racism.

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25 Apr 08 - 02:15 PM (#2325600)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: The Sandman

Cumberland Clark, wrote in the heyday of the British Empire.,So his efforts are possibly excusable.

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25 Apr 08 - 02:19 PM (#2325604)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: The Sandman

you may not have noticed but I deleted you from my myspace friends ,three months ago.

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25 Apr 08 - 02:35 PM (#2325611)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

As I said, I hate imperialism, Captain - be it Nazi, Victorian, or any other; and I did enjoy VISITING all those different countries/cultures on my shoestring-travels.

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25 Apr 08 - 02:37 PM (#2325612)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Your Conscience

But you don't want "them" here though?

Hypocritical?

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25 Apr 08 - 02:40 PM (#2325615)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon

WAV,
I am from Israel, a multicultural place if ever there was one. We hail from all over the world and from very different cultures and backgrounds. Each brought something diferent and special. This is especialy true in food and music, but as this isn't a gastronomy forum, I'll talk about the music. Israeli music has echoes and influences from Eastern Europe, from the classical music of the West, from German cabaret and Russian songs of the 20s and 30s, French chanson, folk songs and liturgy from the Balkans, North Africa, Turkey, Iraq, Persia, Yemen, Arab music, jazz, rock and roll, the big folk scare, country and western, and Celtic stuff. One of our most famous folk songs, the Finjan, shares a melody with the Armenian song Hingala. Has any of this damaged Israeli culture? No, we've taken things and made them our own. We are all the richer for it. You would probably rant about it, but several years ago this rich kid who played keys in various rock and pop bands became very interested in Ethiopian culture. He began to collaborate with young Ethiopians resulting in something called the Idan Reichel project. Ethinc-infused pop. The greatest service it has done is in making Ethiopian traditions more accesible and understood to the rest of us Israelis, thus making it easier for young Ethiopians to hold on to their own traditions. It is very hard to do so if your ignorant peers hold in it in contempt!!!
An attempt to enforce uniculturalism in Israel has left deep scars and retarded the growth of our own culture.

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25 Apr 08 - 02:52 PM (#2325625)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer

"An attempt to enforce uniculturalism in Israel has left deep scars and retarded the growth of our own culture."

well said, Volgadon.

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25 Apr 08 - 02:59 PM (#2325629)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Neil D

M. Ted,
       Thanks so much for the YouTube link for Jim Pepper. I just spent the last hour learning about a remarkable musician who had heretofore slipped beneath my radar. This is why I love Mudcat. I can always find something of value to occupy my time. Even on a thread originally started by that silly prat, GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse. And no WaV I won't apologise for pointing out what a silly prat you are.
                                                      Neil

---

25 Apr 08 - 02:59 PM (#2325630)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Neil D

100

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25 Apr 08 - 03:14 PM (#2325640)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

101

I was just reading an artice by Eliza Carthy which was published on the Guardian online on 13th April

Folk Day at the Proms

among other things E. Carthy has this to say:

'as I have grown older I have tried to concentrate less on the worthiness of what it is that I love, and more on making beautiful, interesting music that people will just want to listen or dance to, and making sure it gets heard on its own terms, because that is how you begin to feel a connection to something, no matter who you are or where you are from.'

Makes sense to me.

Charlotte R

---

25 Apr 08 - 03:15 PM (#2325641)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalakaboutsVerse

I think the UN should make most forms of immigration (along with conquest and slavery), from now on, illegal and help genuine assylum-seekers to their NEAREST safe country (which may be England or Israel, eg).
Israel, along with Egypt and Ethiopia for other eg.s, is one of the interesting countries I have not visited...but, obviously, from the news, trying to have different cultures living under the one state law has had it's problems - as with modern England, and many other lands.
So, Volgadon, you haven't changed my mind - but at least, for what it's worth, you're a tad more reasonable than some of my cyber-critics.

---

25 Apr 08 - 03:19 PM (#2325644)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST

Given the fact that everyone in England is an immigrant (you just need to go back emough gererations), I'd like to ask WalkaboutsVerse where his cut off is.

1600?, 1700?, 1800?

This matters in terms of understanding what 'real' English folk song is.

Alternatively we could just accept that WalaboutsVerse is a talentless, racist fool and ignore him....

---

25 Apr 08 - 03:22 PM (#2325649)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon

Well, you don't have to live with the results of the wedges driven between people through a camapign of uniculturalism!!! What was done in the 50s and 60s made it harder for people to accept other cultures.

Why make immigration illegal? Whatabout you, aren't you an immigrant?

---

25 Apr 08 - 03:46 PM (#2325660)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

(I've found my password and logged-in)
All my own known forebears were born in England; but, of course, I understand that there has been heaps of immigration (as well as conquest and slavery) over the centuries, and that's why I added "FROM NOW ON" (above).

---

25 Apr 08 - 03:59 PM (#2325669)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

In other words - should slavery still be legal because it was legal for so long: NO! and it is time to question immigration as well.

---

25 Apr 08 - 04:04 PM (#2325672)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,DJG

Well, I totally disagree with WAV's views expressed on this thread, but I'd defend his right to state them openly without being tarred and feathered just for doing so. There are 2 or 3 deeply unpleasant, vindictive and conflicted people on this thread, and sensible moderation would weed them out rather than tacitly egging them on as (IMHO) is happening. This post will be deleted, I guess, but before you do so, Joe, just think about how ultimately you'd want to be remembered, yeah?

---

25 Apr 08 - 04:26 PM (#2325695)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

This whole insertion of slavery and conquest into WAV's attempted rationalizations are nothing more than red herrings, to try and distract us away from his racism, and as for "there has been heaps of immigration (as well as conquest and slavery) over the centuries, and that's why I added "FROM NOW ON"...well, what can I say? This screams "well I've got mine, but you are going to be denied the same benefits etc that I have. Yeesh!

Charlotte R

---

25 Apr 08 - 04:46 PM (#2325706)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

Who's misled - a mole can only be a mole, yes?!

---

25 Apr 08 - 05:09 PM (#2325720)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole catcher's unplugged Apprentice

well, it is only an identifier...a name I use for the purposes of this
forum, other than that it means nothing, you once more using it as a distracter. Me mislead, I hardly think so. When in England, at school, I encountered the racist, divisive garbage you're fostering here, both as a visible minority and as a woman, I am sick unto death of it and those who preach it, and I will do all I can to counteract it, that you can take to the bank.

Charlotte R

---

25 Apr 08 - 05:32 PM (#2325748)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

Do you accept, CR, there is/can be a difference between questioning immigration and being a racist? Is not racism where someone says, eg., they are ALL like this or that? Have you seen me do suchlike? I'd be one of the least racist people in the world (I DID get on okay with others on my travels) and I do keep questioning immigration - apology, please.

---

25 Apr 08 - 05:39 PM (#2325758)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

Do you accept, CR, there is/can be a difference between questioning immigration and being a racist

I don't question immigration, you protest way too much when it comes to your alleged travels overseas and how you got on with the ...ummm..locals, you and I will always be on opposing sides, so get used to it, oh...and no I don't accept yet another attempt at rationalization on your part and no, I do not believe any sort of apology is in order on my part.

Charlotte R

---

25 Apr 08 - 08:13 PM (#2325848)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer

"Well, I totally disagree with WAV's views expressed on this thread, but I'd defend his right to state them openly without being tarred and feathered just for doing so."

Well, one person's (crackpot) opinion is of course their right to express, but because of the tendency of far right parties to harness themselves to the English tradition, it's important that real multiculturalists, pluralists and culturally tolerant people who love English folk culture distance themselves from such sentiments.

After all, you never know who is looking in.

---

26 Apr 08 - 04:15 AM (#2326025)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Andrez

Oops just broke my own committment re this thread but I noticed that the key quote from Walkabouts response to my previous post disappeared as has part of the Wikipedia quote. I've reinserted the quote and reposted the whole post. This is just to make better sense of my comments below. (Aha! its because I used angle brackets that got parsed badly as html)

Cheers and bye once again.
Andrez

David, in your response to my last post you say: "you'll see that I have NOT ctriticized any particular culture or race (far from it), but have repeatedly questioned the act of immigration itself"

You continue to remain dishonest as far as your values and political orientation concerning multiculturalism. Your statement above is an example of what is called dog whistling here in Australia. Since you say you spent time here then I can understand where you picked up the tricks. For those who arent familiar with the tactic I am talking about, Wikipedia has a concise summary:

"Dog-whistle politics, also known as the use of code words, is a type of political campaigning or speechmaking employing coded language that appears to mean one thing to the general population but has a different or more specific meaning for a targeted subgroup of the audience. When you speak in code(...), most of the time the only people who hear and understand what you just said are the intended group, who have an understanding of the world and a use of words that is not shared by the majority of the population......The term is an analogy to dog whistles built in such a way that humans cannot hear them due to their high frequency, but dogs can."

Get it? Whether you are aware of it or not this is how you are operating and how you are trying to promote your viewpoint. Bush does the same thing as did Thatcher in her time. So did Adolf as he undermined the German state in the 20's and '30's.

As I said earlier, just be up front about it and dont pretend otherwise because you are not fooling anyone other than yourself.

Now that I've got that off my chest, I came across a thread with 500+ posts also pushed to promote Walkabouts views, poetry or whatever. Having scanned through that self important, self centered onanistic drivel I can only concur with other people who have suggested to boycott threads where David is either promoting his political or social views or his Vogon like verse. I know I wont bother responding to any more posts in this or other threads driven by Walkabout. I support and encourage Mudcatters to do the same. Let this thread lapse!

Cheers,

Andrez

But taking one last tack, I offer some verse of my own (for better or verse :-) ) to Walkabout, based on yet another traditional style:

-----------------------------
Hush!
Don't drown the flute-song of your being
In word symphony.
-------------------------------

Can you hear what I am saying?

---

26 Apr 08 - 08:43 AM (#2326140)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ian Burdon

What a fucking pointless and dis-spiriting thread.

---

26 Apr 08 - 10:33 AM (#2326203)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

No need for the F-word, Ian...I was just dispirited, myself, by a stop at the local super-market on the way home from a bit of tennis - as I gathered my goods I had to, as often, put up with the sounds of American rap on their radio and thought: "traditional English folk IS better than that and WOULD be enjoyed by more youngsters here if given a fair go!"
Andrez - you described my poetry as "vogon like"...I just can't find the words for yours, pal..?..dis-spiriting..?..deep..?..drowning..?

---

26 Apr 08 - 01:24 PM (#2326319)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,DJG

As an EFDSS member for many years, I can only say that it's people like YOU, Ruth, with your trolling and seemingly bottomless reserves of spite and avarice; who are bringing our tradition (and the EFDSS) into disrepute by (wholly disingenuously IMO) aligning yourself with it. You've no love of music in you, you pious fraud.

Over and out.

---

26 Apr 08 - 01:47 PM (#2326343)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

...and God's speed to the EFDSS...if and when I visit London again, I'll head straight for those recordings up top, I've heard such good things about.

---

26 Apr 08 - 04:59 PM (#2326481)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

Ummm...so being anti-racist and being pluralistic culture-wise makes Ruth ..let me see, you called her...spiteful and avaricious(?!!)...a pious fraud...hmmmmm well I guess that makes me the same, and I'm in great company :-) Oh and I fully intend, on my next trip to England, to become a member of the EFDSS!

By the way, Andrez, I love that expression, 'dog whistle politics' *LOL* fits perfectly I think.

Charlotte R

---

26 Apr 08 - 07:23 PM (#2326557)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper

...the sounds of American rap on their radio and thought: "traditional English folk IS better than that and WOULD be enjoyed by more youngsters here if given a...

Nice to see WAV's given up on his specious love of a Multi-Cultural World and is going for an all out assault on the demoralising effects of degenerate Black Music on the nation's disaffected youth.

---

27 Apr 08 - 02:20 AM (#2326673)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon

What is wrong about immigration?
Slavery is bad because not only is it exploitative, abusive and degrading, but takes away people's freedom. Immigration has it's difficulties, associated with displacement and oftentimes bad economic and social status for a while, but that could happen even if you stay put all the days of your life. WAV seems to have reaped the benefits of immigration, why shouldn't others?
WAV, it seems like you view the world as one great big zoo, nice to visit, as long as those lions, tigers, bears and Venezuelan beavers stay inside their cages.
Culture (and music), isolated and fenced, stagnates and DIEEEEEEES. Let culture (and music) evolve, if it's a good culture (and music), it will keep the things that you love about it and become even better.

---

27 Apr 08 - 04:16 AM (#2326704)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper

One suspects WAVs love of English Culture is as specious as his love of a Multi-Cultural World...

---

27 Apr 08 - 04:19 AM (#2326706)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

For hundreds of years, English folk enjoyed singing their folk-songs in much the same unaccompanied way. Now, the BBC, e.g., DOES give a lot more airplay to, e.g., American rap, which I genuinely find nowhere near as enjoyable as folk - I CAN say that. And, going by the promo, rather than the show itself, nearly all of Jewels Holland's live muscic TV show is either American's pefrorming American music or English performing American music, when we DO have our OWN good culture. This is, of course, happening in many countries but in England it's reached a ridiculous level! And this IS quite different from saying I don't like any American music/culture within our multicultural world.
As for zoos...

Poem 203 of 230: IN SITU

When faced with a critical view,
    A zoo's main raison d'être is -
The conservation of species;
    But this can be done in situ.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

---

27 Apr 08 - 06:37 AM (#2326758)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper

For hundreds of years, English folk enjoyed singing their folk-songs in much the same unaccompanied way. Now, the BBC, e.g., DOES give a lot more airplay to, e.g., American rap

Now let me get this right WAV - for countless centuries the good white native-born country folk of Merry England basked in this utopia of unaccompanied traditional song until the BBC (e.g.,) started playing degenerate Black pop music whereupon it all went horribly wrong. Interesting.

---

27 Apr 08 - 06:58 AM (#2326768)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon

"I/we "fight" with words, Sedayne, but sadly some members of those "immigrant communities & minorities" use other tactics for what they want - which is not "Englishness"/Anglicises..?!"
Actually, that is pretty English too, I mean 'those other tactics', you can ask the Hugeonot potters of London.

---

27 Apr 08 - 07:26 AM (#2326779)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: ironstone

I entirely agree.BUT songs should be sung in character and if the song is American, giving it a light colouring (should that be 'coloring')of a mid-atlantic drawl seems as acceptable as singing a Yorkshire song with a little Yorkshire colouring or a Tyneside song with a touch of Geordie. Of course not every singer is an actor and sufficiently skilled to sing in character, many are just content to twang along on guitar or even do classy guitar accompaniments and treat the words as there simply to repeat without thought to the emotional content. However, Folk is a broad church and many people seem to enjoy this, just a matter of personal taste.

---

27 Apr 08 - 10:45 AM (#2326852)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse

You're confusing my argument, Volgodon and CV - please read this.

---

27 Apr 08 - 11:15 AM (#2326872)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST

I just read it, but what it has to do with anything, I don't know.
I am not confusing your original argument. I think it would go something like this.
Dylan's Bob Dylan's Dream (Lord Franklin) is on the radio, followed by S&G Scarborough Fair and then the Byrds' rendition of Wild Mountain Thyme.
"As I've said, here, in the USA and beyond, we are hearing on the air-waves more-and-more hauntingly melodic folk singing and stuff isnpired by quartet of foreigners in arran-sweaters (even on this, the 4th of July) when, to me, quality traditional twangy American-folk, and blues/jazz tinged pop and showtunes sound at least as good as this English traditional song...and, more importantly, it's OUR OWN.
America is, along with many other lands, Anglicising, and I don't like it - and neither should the British citizens who, themselves, love the world being multicultural. Another sad example is Americans trying to sing without a strong American accent."

---

27 Apr 08 - 02:27 PM (#2327011)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

WAV proably hates The Imagined Village....just a thought ;-)

Charlotte R

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27 Apr 08 - 02:36 PM (#2327017)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

As I've said in poem # 209 PEOPLE LOSE (I can't put it here as it's one of my shaped-poems), when people lose their own culture, society suffers - be it Aboriginal, English, or any other.

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27 Apr 08 - 03:26 PM (#2327050)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

"when people lose their own culture, society suffers"

"The British National Party would probably make it into a parliament elected by proportional representation, too. It would shine a torch into the dirty little corner where the BNP defecate on our democracy, and that would be much more powerful than duffing them up in the street — which I'm also in favour of."

- Billy Bragg in an interview with The Guardian, 2004

I fully agree..with Billy Bragg that is *LOL*

Charlotte R

---

27 Apr 08 - 05:35 PM (#2327136)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper

You're confusing my argument, Volgodon and CV - please read this.

Just read it.

You don't have an argument to confuse, WAV - you have a whole mess of seriously misinformed, ill-considered & otherwise nonsensical rhetoric that displays nothing but an utter and total ignorance of the subjects you hold forth upon - and that's putting it mildly. It is from this catechism of claptrap that you constantly quote in the vain hope that if you say something often enough it will become true - true for yourself perhaps, believing as you do your own propagandist polemic, but for the rest of us it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and has absolutely no bearing on the world in which we live.

My advice therefore, is start afresh with a clean slate, open your mind (and your heart) to what is actually happening in the world and then do some serious study on the subjects you claim to love & revere yet, as you so demonstrate so clearly in your writing, know nothing about.

Maybe you ought go back home to Australia too, unravel the web, take it back to the source, figure out where you went so terribly wrong and try to put it right. Take some food along for the journey (it's going to be a long one!) - just be sure to bake enough humble pie to see you to the end of it.

---

27 Apr 08 - 05:57 PM (#2327146)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Pekingese Frog Hop Lots

WAV sez: Singing a folk-song in a phoney foreign accent... is surely "not cricket." - why bother affecting our voice for the genre... instead of just putting our natural speaking-timbre into song?

WAV sez: as a repat. (rather than a visitor) from Australia, I've done some work on my pronunciation by, wait for it, listening carefully to two Geordie ex-runners when the athletics is on!

---

27 Apr 08 - 07:07 PM (#2327174)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

This looks like another thread that went down the crapper. Nice job by our friends on the other side of the pond.

People do not lose their culture, culture evolves.

---

28 Apr 08 - 05:52 AM (#2327413)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

To Mole.: I'm not a member of any political party, but I'm enough of a realist to state that I'd probably agree with all of them on SOME things; but, since you did use/misuse that quote again, I'd prefer the SNP, The English Democrats, etc.; and, in my opinion, if Blair and Brown knew better, they'd be members of the SNP.
To CV: As for your "serious study", I majored in anthropology, with distinctions, found my way on a shoestring through about 40 countries, and have put a lot of extra thought into these issues. Also, you surely know by now that I'm an English repat. - but you say "you ought to go back home to Australia"?...I'd like to live my life here in England and VISIT Australia again...is that okay with you?
To PFHL: yes, as a repat. and not a visitor to England, I have worked on my pronunciation (and put quite a lot else into my repatriation, as said above) with BOTH my speaking and singing...is that okay with you?
To Ron: recently on tv the concern was raised that a very high percentage of childrens programmes, e.g., in England now are from America - is that "evolution" or replacement/globalisation/Americanisation...and here, again, I must stress that I do enjoy some American culture/music myself, but we in England DO have our own good culture, which IS being lost, which is NOT good for our society.
At least, just recently, more-and-more English people are openly raising such concerns.

---

28 Apr 08 - 09:26 AM (#2327553)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

Walkaboutverse - you need to figure out why your "culture" is supposedly being lost and "replaced" by globalization/Americanisation. If you are importing a high percentage of children's programs, perhaps there is a reason? Are your own programs delivering the needed messages?   Why are people watching the shows they watch?

No matter how hard you stamp your feet and hold your breath until you turn blue, you cannot force people into a culture they do not want nor can you stop evolution. I hate to be the one to clue you in, but our own culture in the United States has changed as well. It is important to raise concerns, but unless you have a workable plan to change it, what is your point?

---

28 Apr 08 - 10:37 AM (#2327624)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned A Monster

"This looks like another thread that went down the crapper. Nice job by our friends on the other side of the pond.

People do not lose their culture, culture evolves."

Ron, it's a thread that started in the crapper. Most contributors (from this side of the pond - away wi' yer pondism!) are making entirely the same point as you, because they're embarassed to see someone with confused and repugnant views claiming to speak for them and their culture (or at least the part of it he believes is 'pure' enough. Don't get me started on the myth of cultural purity, though).

I agree entirely with what Sedayne has said. And if Ruth is a 'troll', I'm a goblin.

---

28 Apr 08 - 10:55 AM (#2327637)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: goatfell

what is the 'R' word is it rain, run, road or is it being truthful rascist, i mean this is political correctness gone mad.

say what is on your mind and the freedom of speech, oh and if you don't vote in an election then you're make the right parties ie the BNP more populour because you didn't vote against them.

if I remeber Ruth was saying some nasty things about me as wel, but I just don't read her posts anyway because I said that Bernard Manning was dead and that was a shame and then I got my head taken off because I showed him and his family some sympathy and they didn't.

---

28 Apr 08 - 12:21 PM (#2327723)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

I'm sure there are many citizens of America who, like me, don't like globalisation (they may, e.g., have enjoyed being in-among other cultures for a time on their travels), and are glad that some other nationals are at least trying to do something about it.

---

28 Apr 08 - 12:41 PM (#2327739)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper

Like what?

---

28 Apr 08 - 12:50 PM (#2327752)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Ewan Spawned a Monster

WAV, I think you can't tell the difference between multiculturalism and tourism. Going on holiday, even on a shoestring and even to lots of exotic places has nothing to do with multiculturalism. It really is just going on holiday. Who was it who talked about "a cheap holiday in someone else's misery"? Ah, that great English icon Johnny Rotten. With his Irish roots and love of dub reggae.

Your sophorific English idyll never existed outside of the minds of the Pre-Raphaelites.

I prefer the place where another English icon with Irish roots said: "Where taxi drivers never stop talking under slate grey Victorian skies".

---

28 Apr 08 - 04:16 PM (#2327941)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Peter Beta

Love Morrissey too, but I think you'll find he ain't no multiculturalist!

Sorry to be pedantic, Ron, but it looks to me like at least some of the most, erm, execrable postings here have actually come from those who hail from YOUR side of the pond...just saying, loike.

---

28 Apr 08 - 04:30 PM (#2327953)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

'actually come from those who hail from YOUR side of the pond...just saying, loike......'

Ohh, I think were more than just "saying loike" Can't speak for others but I believe I've posted, elsewhere, that I have resided in the UK and have experienced the racism that prevails there. While I may live "on this side" now I do not believe this bars me (or anyone else for that matter) from having an opinion about a dreadful and loathsome state of affairs.

Charlotte R

---

28 Apr 08 - 04:38 PM (#2327960)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Peter Beta

"...the racism that prevails there."

Sounds a bit racist against Brits, that does.

Earth to Charlotte R: The world does not revolve around you!

---

28 Apr 08 - 04:44 PM (#2327967)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

You appear to be the one out of touch with reality. Considering my father is British I hardly think I have any prejudices against the British, as I also stated, I've resided in several British cities..the world revolving around me...?hardly, sunshine. I am one of many or have posted here that holds the same opinion, and there is nothing you can say that would alter my opinion. Get a grip. as they say over here. :-D

Charlotte R

---

28 Apr 08 - 04:48 PM (#2327971)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

"Sorry to be pedantic, Ron, but it looks to me like at least some of the most, erm, execrable postings here have actually come from those who hail from YOUR side of the pond...just saying, loike."

I accept your apology Peter.

Re-read the thread and then HONESTLY tell me where the "execrable" postings are coming from. We certainly have our share of racists, but I think the jist of this thread comes from a Chicken Little paranoia that the sky is falling ontop of your traditions. It ain't, y'all.

---

28 Apr 08 - 05:47 PM (#2328067)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: TheSnail

GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

a dreadful and loathsome state of affairs.

Well, I know Walkaboutsverse's "poetry" is pretty awful but that's putting it a bit strong. Please don't mistake his incoherent ramblings for general opinion in the UK.

---

28 Apr 08 - 05:58 PM (#2328080)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

'Well, I know Walkaboutsverse's "poetry" is pretty awful but that's putting it a bit strong. Please don't mistake his incoherent ramblings for general opinion in the UK.'

Snail I don't, I realise that there are the many who find racism every bit as disgusting.... and as for referring to WAV verse as a dreadful and loathsome state of affairs......wellllllll *LOL*

Charlotte R

---

28 Apr 08 - 07:07 PM (#2328154)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: The Sandman

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko - PM
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 09:26 AM

Walkaboutverse - you need to figure out why your "culture" is supposedly being lost and "replaced" by globalization/Americanisation. If you are importing a high percentage of children's programs, perhaps there is a reason? Are your own programs delivering the needed messages?   Why are people watching the shows they watch?

No matter how hard you stamp your feet and hold your breath until you turn blue, you cannot force people into a culture they do not want nor can you stop evolution. I hate to be the one to clue you in, but our own culture in the United States has changed as well. It is important to raise concerns, but unless you have a workable plan to change it, what is your point?
   walkabouts plan is that we should have a world of walkabout prose and walkabout recorder playing.

---

29 Apr 08 - 02:23 AM (#2328342)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Peter Beta

Perhaps we should change the name of this one to "The Personal Attack Permathread"?

As I said earlier, those that can, do...

---

29 Apr 08 - 03:53 AM (#2328364)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

Whether or not we like it, and whether we call it globalisation or Americanisation, one cannot deny that it is happening.
Perhaps it's a good time for some name-drops to fall on this thread: the late great English folkie Bob Copper, in a documentary just before he passed away, admitted falling "hook-line-and-sinker" for American blues when it first reached England...but later went back to singing unaccompanied or in close-harmony with family, or with LIGHT self-accompaniment from an English concerina; similar could be said of the living folk-lengend Martin Carthy - only his LIGHT accompaniment comes from a guitar (I, for one, would love to hear him play the English cittern...has he..?).

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29 Apr 08 - 06:11 AM (#2328426)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: TheSnail

walkaboutsverse, you may have seen Bob Copper in a documentary; I knew him personally. Do not EVER use his name again to support your obnoxious ideas.

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29 Apr 08 - 06:32 AM (#2328443)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper

Perhaps we should change the name of this one to "The Personal Attack Permathread"?

There is nothing personal about any of this; on the contrary, it's about as impersonal as it gets seeing as how, for whatever reason, the central protagonist seems to have eliminated actual living humanity from their somewhat perplexing philosophy of English Culture.

As for an attack, one would hope the only wish on anyone's mind here is to let said protagonist know just how misguided & ill-informed such ideas are in the hope something might be done about them.

When it comes to culture, living humanity is all that matters. It doesn't matter if the English people of 100 years ago sang their Traditional English Folk Songs unaccompanied, the fact is, barring a tiny minority of revivalist folk song enthusiasts, they don't now.

Why don't they? Well, because they're all dead for a start; notwithstanding some very serious questions over just how many of them sang these Traditional English Folk Songs in the first place, and how much of it is a myth perpetuated, however so unwittingly, by the revival. To go back to an earlier point on this thread (see above, Walkaboutsverse 24 Apr 08 - 01:27 PM) in a very real sense, as babies boomed, it was folk-year-zero.

I'm sure such issues have been dealt with elsewhere, but when entire lifetimes were spent without ever once encountering a single folk song in any sort of traditional context, then one must begin to wonder to what extent, if any, Traditional English Folk Song ever permeated English Culture as a whole. If it did, then it certainly didn't do so in a vacuum, though one might at least postulate the sort of circumstances in which it could well have done, but chances are we'll end up tripping along the leafy lane to Lark Rise.

Seductive as such idyllic visions undoubtedly are, they remain just that - idyllic visions with little or no baring on reality whatsoever; not then, and certainly not now. So to suggest that Our Own Good English Culture is any way, shape or form defined by Traditional English Folk Song is perhaps a little wide of the mark - but to then go on to advise on how said Traditional English Folk Song should (or more to the point should not) authentically be performed is surely to enter into realms of the absurd.

Worst of all, however, is to suggest that this barely legible footnote in the social history of a culturally impoverished lumpenproletariat is somehow good for our National Identity and Well-being. Good for the elite minority who love such things perhaps, but for the majority it is, and understandably so, absolutely meaningless - indeed, as ghastly, as the man said.

True English Folk Culture is out there doing whatever it is that people are doing; it's listening to whatever it is that they're listening to, and playing whatever it is that they're playing and, get this, it's loving every fecking minute of it. True English Folk Culture is getting on with the daily reality of multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, multi-faith life without ever once stopping to trouble over the anachronistic minutiae that might provide such endless fascination to the likes of us.

In fact, I dare say most of us are doing just that anyway...

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29 Apr 08 - 06:51 AM (#2328449)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: The Sandman

Perhaps we should change the name of this one to "The Personal Attack Permathread"?

As I said earlier, those that can, do
yes,quite right, I do,in fact I have been doing it for over thirty five years and if you would like to visit my website,youcan hear me and purchase cds /tutors etchttp://www.dickmiles.com

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29 Apr 08 - 06:52 AM (#2328451)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Joe

Well said CV.

I don't mind people having opinions, but when someone's view of the world has some ideas similar to my own, (I believe in maintaining certain traditions that are coincidentally unique to England, but not because they are unique to England - anyway these traditions EVOLVE - with multicultural influence!!!)and are then extended to justify racial and cultural segregation, it is important for such views to be singled out and uncovered for the load of nonsense that they are.

WAV - what do you think of Martin Carthy's involvement with the Imagined Village?

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29 Apr 08 - 07:04 AM (#2328456)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST

"It is neither possible nor desirable to set up musical border checkpoints anywhere." Martin Carthy

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29 Apr 08 - 07:12 AM (#2328459)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

Frankly, I've only heard bits of The Imagined Village, Joe, on radio and (you know what I'm going say) I genuinely did not like it. But I do like a lot of what Martin has done and said, and the same goes for Bob Copper (even though The Snail doesn't like me saying so).

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29 Apr 08 - 09:12 AM (#2328545)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: The Sandman

Walksabout,as someone that sings English Australian Scottish Irish and even occasionally American songs,I sing them because I like them.
most of the songs I sing happen to be traditional,although I have sung and recorded contemporary songs[some self composed].
I think the difference between you and I,is that you sing songs because they are English,I sing a song because I think it is a good song[it doesnt matter to me if A LLoyd wrote it].
now defining Englishness is very difficult,England is a country that has constantly,welcomed immigrants,and in its not so recent history has also been invaded a fair few times.
it is a nation that has been the result of many influences look at the language,there is no such thing in England as racial purity.
The royal family is a prime example.
my own family is part irish part german and part english.
Ithink you need to reevaulate your views.

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29 Apr 08 - 09:38 AM (#2328568)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

"Bob Copper, in a documentary just before he passed away, admitted falling "hook-line-and-sinker" for American blues when it first reached England...but later went back to singing unaccompanied or in close-harmony with family"

I only had the honor of meeting Bob Copper once, and while I would never claim to know the man's thoughts, I think I can safely say that the above statement is probably the most twisted interpretation in an attempt to blame "globalization" that I've heard on these threads.

I did hear Bob Copper profess his love for the blues, and he was not apologizing for it.   From what I gather, Bob was open to new ideas and he realized that the culture that his family preserved was as important and as interesting as the culture that developed the blues. He had an open mind and did not allow himself to fall prey to bigoted thoughts that would have blinded him from experiencing other cultures. Yes, Bob Copper sang the blues, and yes he continued (not went back) to singing with his family as he did his whole life. He was not a one-trick pony and he did not look at life through blinders.

The attack on "globalilzation" seems to be a simple-minded paranoia that truly doesn't understand what the term means. (I love it when someone from a country that for years called themselves the Empire where the sun never sets blames America for trying to force itself on the rest of the world!).

Music and culture should be treated like a stew - it isn't run through a blender. You can always enjoy the bits and morsels of each ingredient and taste the distinct flavors that is added - when you finish a bowl of all these bits, you are fullfilled.

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29 Apr 08 - 09:45 AM (#2328572)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Banjiman

WFDU- Ron Olesko

Ron,

Let's not set this up as a Britain (England?) v USA thing, it isn't. We are all trying to deal with the views of one extremist here....we all have them, this one just happens to claim "Englishness"....though not a brand of Englishness that I buy into.

Paul

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29 Apr 08 - 09:46 AM (#2328573)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: goatfell

what happened to free speech eh!

Pc and all that crap that these people can away with, if WAV wants to write that way then it is a free speech site or supposed to be and yet there are some people who come onto this site and try and shoot down the free thinkers

so good on you WAV for having the guts to put over your views, some I might not agree with but they are your views and you are entitiled to them the same as I.

he who is without sin cast the first stone

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29 Apr 08 - 09:53 AM (#2328577)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Banjiman

Arran.....and we are free to contradict those views if we don't like them.

I have no problem with WAV expressing his (what I find distasteful) views....but they do need to be (I think) forcefully challenged.

Paul

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29 Apr 08 - 10:02 AM (#2328586)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: TheSnail

Ron, thanks for the good words about Bob Copper.

Arran, free speech includes the right to reply.

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29 Apr 08 - 10:10 AM (#2328593)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

Arran - free speech is exactly what everyone has. Free speech does not include the right to be free from challenge. You express an opinion, others express theirs. If you are not comfortable with your own position and feel that you are being attacked and shouted down, perhaps you need to do some self-exploration to see why you feel that way. Paranoia is not the answer.

Banjiman- I wonder why you felt it necessary to remind me that this is not a USA vs. England debate, when a majority of posts on this thread have taken an England vs. USA stance and gone unchallenged? I totally agree, it is not a debate pitting culture vs. culture - that was the point I was trying to make.

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29 Apr 08 - 10:19 AM (#2328599)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: TheSnail

WFDU - Ron Olesko

a majority of posts on this thread have taken an England vs. USA stance and gone unchallenged?

Ron, as I tried to say to Charlotte, please don't think that WAV's views are representative.

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29 Apr 08 - 10:21 AM (#2328603)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Banjiman

Ron- I'm glad we agree, you must have read the posts above quite differently from how I read them.....excluding WAV's.

I was responding to this:

"The attack on "globalilzation" seems to be a simple-minded paranoia that truly doesn't understand what the term means. (I love it when someone from a country that for years called themselves the Empire where the sun never sets blames America for trying to force itself on the rest of the world!)."

I think the British Empire was responsible for some pretty awful things in the past and I think the USA/UK alliance is doing some pretty awful things right now.....I also think that this has little to do with what I know of English/ British / American culture and everything to do with the egos of a few "leaders".

Paul

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29 Apr 08 - 10:21 AM (#2328604)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

I've never mentioned "racial purity", CB - I've only questioned multiculturalism and the loss of CULTURES here; and I keep saying the truth that I do love the world being multicultural, but most of my critics here seem to ignore that for some reason..?..and is it such a bad/evil/demon/extreme thing if FROM NOW ON immigration is slowed down , via the UN?

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29 Apr 08 - 10:34 AM (#2328606)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: goatfell

I just Believe in Free speech by all people, but don't get angry with those that don't agree with you becasue it takes two to create an argument and just one, and I Don't have Paranoia, mind you sometimes I hear voices in my head.

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29 Apr 08 - 10:43 AM (#2328614)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper

if WAV wants to write that way then it is a free speech site or supposed to be and yet there are some people who come onto this site and try and shoot down the free thinkers

Bollocks, Arran.

Free speech ends as soon as ideas run contrary to human interest. WAV is not a free thinker & he does not believe in free speech. WAV believes in a racist totalitarianism founded on his own extremely xenophobic view of human culture. From his writings (which are on-line for anyone to read in his much promoted 'Free Website') it would seem he is also (surprise, surprise) a homophobic Bible-basher, though how this squares with his multi-cultural view of the world is anyone's guess, but logic & consistency are most certainly not among his strong points.

As for his being from England, well, it's obvious to anyone who's listened to his myspace site, that his claims in this respect are as specious as his claims to love a nice multicultural world. The man is very obviously Australian - no matter where he claims to have been born - and whilst, of course, there's no harm in that it would seem ironic that WAV would appear to be as much an immigrant as those he would 'repatriate' if given half a chance.

Cast the first stone? Dear God, what sort of people would we be if we didn't?

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29 Apr 08 - 10:47 AM (#2328618)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: M.Ted

Just to sum things up, freedom of speech is a good thing , but some people shouldn't be encouraged to excercise it.

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29 Apr 08 - 11:01 AM (#2328627)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper

I've never mentioned "racial purity", CB - I've only questioned multiculturalism and the loss of CULTURES here; and I keep saying the truth that I do love the world being multicultural, but most of my critics here seem to ignore that for some reason..?

i) By culture, you mean ethnicity - stop mincing your mealy-mouthed words.

ii) Kindly demonstrate any single instance of a 'loss of CULTURES here' as you put it.

iii - a) Your claims to love a multi-cultural world stand in stark contrast to your primary agenda of racial purity. Many racist claim to love a multi-cultural world, no doubt part of the 'dog-whistling' mentioned earlier, thus do I say that your claims in this respect are entirely specious, which is to say misleading given your central agenda of ethnic-cleansing.

iii - b) Also your espousal of fundamentalist Christianity does not square with a love of a multicultural world given that Christianity has done more in the name of oppressive colonial globalisation than all other colonial ideologies put together.

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29 Apr 08 - 11:25 AM (#2328649)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

On a BBC gardening forum about 2 years ago, it was just me and a chap nicknamed Ken-70 arguing for native-gardening (for several "green" reasons summarised in my Blog) with virtually everyone-else using similar false criticism to some of those on this thread. However, I went back there early this year and found the TV presenter, Monty Don, keen on forming a native-only garden, and others giving links to lists of native-English plants and mentioning doing similar to Monty, etc - in other words, attitudes/fashions had changed dramatically...perhaps more thought was given while I was away..?
...To CV - I DID enjoy travelling through about 40 countries, I DID major in anthropology as part of a degree in HUMANITIES and I DO love the world being multicultural.....................

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29 Apr 08 - 11:39 AM (#2328664)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: TheSnail

Yeah! Bloody potatoes! Ought to go back where they came from.

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29 Apr 08 - 11:44 AM (#2328667)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: M.Ted

You might be surprised by this, but we knew you were not a certified anthropologist--not to imply that you aren't certified or certifiable in other ways, though--

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29 Apr 08 - 11:55 AM (#2328680)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

You didn't read it sarcastic, Snail! - vegetables and other consumables were deemed exempt from the native-plants rule, in order to limit food-miles, etc.

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29 Apr 08 - 12:02 PM (#2328692)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Joe

I love the comparison - removing foreign weeds from your garden, to removing foreign migrant workers from the fields. Perhaps we should burn them on a bonfire? Monty Don would be proud.

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29 Apr 08 - 12:10 PM (#2328708)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper

I DID enjoy travelling through about 40 countries, I DID major in anthropology as part of a degree in HUMANITIES and I DO love the world being multicultural

Who wouldn't enjoy travelling through 40 countries, even on your proverbial shoestring? And haven't some of the most extreme racist thinkers in history used anthropology to justify their odious claims? And is not one of the classic racist arguments that whilst they love a multi-cultural world, they wouldn't like the buggers living next door? None of this proves anything, WAV - it's just hot-air and specious rhetoric; nor does it in anyway challenge any of the claims that have been against you, which you seem to quite purposefully avoiding.

Gardening is an indulgence, not a necessity; however, a broader consideration of natural / native ecology can in no way be used as a metaphor for human culture unless you're suggesting that different ethnicities would somehow run rampant, much as certain non-native plant species have done, Rhododendrons and Himalayan Balsam to name but two.

People aren't plants and different ethnicities are not different species. If anything, I'd say this argument only serves to double-dig your racist trench even deeper.

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29 Apr 08 - 12:15 PM (#2328718)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

" is it such a bad/evil/demon/extreme thing if FROM NOW ON immigration is slowed down , via the UN? "

Yes, it would be a bad/evil/demon/extreme thing if immigration was slowed down - in any country.   

Immigration and a supposed "loss of culture" are completely separate and one does not impact on the other. Sounds like you are trying to find a scapegoat for a lack of interest.

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29 Apr 08 - 12:25 PM (#2328732)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

To CV, again, I didn't make that "metaphor." And "Who wouldn't enjoy travelling through 40 contries"...perhaps someone who didn't like the world being multicultural..?

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29 Apr 08 - 01:00 PM (#2328777)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon

WAV, no matter how many of your ancestors hailed from England, you yourself are NOT a native plant. If you are against immigration, why don't you set the example and repatriate yourself??
As pepople have said, please share an example of a culture in the UK, especially one recently, which has been lost because of immigration.

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29 Apr 08 - 02:59 PM (#2328909)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: TheSnail

Yeah! Bloody chrysanthemums! Ought to go back where they came from.

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29 Apr 08 - 03:01 PM (#2328911)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

Lions as well...they're not English, mind you neither's St. George...

Charlotte R

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29 Apr 08 - 03:14 PM (#2328917)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

As I was quoted on the local news, "St. George's (yes, CR, from what is now Turkey, they say) Day is also England's National Day and Shakespeare's birth- and death-day."...and should be celebrated, as I said on the other thread, for those who missed it, with midday Morris dancing, afternoon teas, Evensongs, Shakespeare suppers, and red-eye folk-singarounds!

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29 Apr 08 - 03:33 PM (#2328930)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: TheSnail

walkaboutsverse

...and should be celebrated, as I said on the other thread, for those who missed it, with midday Morris dancing, afternoon teas, Evensongs, Shakespeare suppers, and red-eye folk-singarounds!

Indeed it should. Unfortunately it has been usurped by the far right, lunatic fringe of White Anglo-Saxon, Ethnic-English bigots who disapprove of the BNP because "British" is far too cosmopolitan for them.

"red-eye folk-singarounds"?

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29 Apr 08 - 03:37 PM (#2328934)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

and your point is what...I mean apart from more of the same. I mean all these things you list are all stereo-types of the 'English way of life'.
ummmm..and that bit about Shakespeare? William Shakespeare (baptised 26 April 1564 – 23 April 1616)seems we only have his baptismal date, not his actual birthdate, sooooo

Charlotte R

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29 Apr 08 - 03:47 PM (#2328950)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

Okay, Snail - late-night folk-singarounds.
Okay, Mole. - may we say probably Shakespear's bithday, as well as his death-day?

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29 Apr 08 - 03:53 PM (#2328967)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged

unless you know something the scholars don't, no one really has any idea when Shakespeare's actual birth date was..to me it simply seems like wishful thinking on the part of so-called patriots that Shakespeare was born and died on what became "St George's Day' I don't believe in coincidence.

Charlotte R

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29 Apr 08 - 04:08 PM (#2328992)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

I like the idea of celebrating St. George's Day - I hope it catches on. We celebrate Cinco de Mayo, Oktoberfest, St. Patrick's Day and Columbus Day among others, which have become heritage day's as opposed to celebrating a specific event or individual. Celebrate diversity!!!

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29 Apr 08 - 05:20 PM (#2329049)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Son of the Soil

Native plants are all in favor of irrigation!

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29 Apr 08 - 05:22 PM (#2329050)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Jack Blandiver

This is the first year I've seen shops selling St. George's Day cards anyway, but then again I'm not the most observant of people! I didn't receive (or send) any though. When did that start then? Or is something unique to Lancashire?

Personally, I think every day is worthy of equal celebration, if only for the joy of being alive to do so! May Eve tomorrow too, Walpurgisnacht indeed...

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29 Apr 08 - 05:22 PM (#2329051)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

I just came across this very apt quote from Eliza Carthy, it sums it all up perfectly for me.


"When I was younger I was much more of a missionary, much more of a zealot. Now I'm not so into ghettoising English Traditional Music. It's important for it to be a part of the whole world. It's like I'm saying 'Here's what I do, now what of it?' I like the idea of English traditional music being out in the world. God knows, there's much more obscure music out there. Why can't we be where they are?"

Charlotte R

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30 Apr 08 - 05:42 AM (#2329531)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

For what it's worth, M., I've had such a discussion with Eliza, (as well as Sedayne, and several others) via myspace, until she said poems only please, from now on - we agreed on some things.
But sticking with religion for a moment, does it say anywhere in the Bible that, for centuries to come, the Vatican in Rome may decide that a few humans are/were saints?..I don't like either the imperialistic Anglican movement or the imperialistic Roman Catholic movement - I prefer The Church of Italy, The Church of England, The Church of Scotland, The Church of Finland, etc.:

Poem 219 of 230: FURTHER ANTI-IMPERIALISM

Let each Christian nation have it's own Church -
Equal, before God, with the others' Search.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

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30 Apr 08 - 05:52 AM (#2329538)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon

Personally, I prefer a church to be of God, WITHOUT being the church of Poland, Burgundy, Lower Silesia and Middlemarch, but that's just me. I think once you split it into political boundaries it's not God's, but that nations's.

It does sound like Eliza C got sick of arguing with you or listening to rhetoric.

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30 Apr 08 - 07:23 AM (#2329590)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Jack Blandiver

I suppose the point is to accept such things whether we like them or not. Whatever grievances one might have about the ongoing occupation of Roman Catholic places of worship (i.e. all English churches & cathedrals built prior to the reformation) by Anglicans, I doubt much good would ever come of demanding their return! Some, of course, do, but in the nigh on 500 years since the Act of Supremacy I dare say things have settled down quite peaceably.

It's interesting to note that the Anglican custodians are very keen to perpetuate certain modern myths about the various Roman Catholic symbolism found carved into the fabric of such places of worship (see thread Folklore: The Green Man) without once stopping to consider their actual significance within the theology of the people who put them there in the first place, no matter what we might think of that theology today. Even as an atheistic Marxist I find this somewhat irksome, but such, indeed, is life!

Getting back to St. George - isn't this too colonial a symbol in this context wonder? Given that Christianity is the only religion in which the dragon / serpent is equated with evil. Thus might the slaying of the dragon symbolise the subjugation of the pre-Christian faith, as might further be exemplified by the placing of churches dedicated to St. Michael (another dragon slayer!) on prominent places of pre-Christian worship, such as Glastonbury Tor. Just a thought.

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30 Apr 08 - 08:03 AM (#2329618)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon

Whatever it is, St. George isn't English, that's a fact. I can just see those Romano-Brits groaning as people started to celeberate that dragon-slaying foreigner brought in by immigrants. That's not Romano-British!!!!

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30 Apr 08 - 08:28 AM (#2329640)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: goatfell

well I tihnk he is, a free thinker and it is NOT your or my job to judge him or anyone else, so please don't swear at me or you might say that I'm a racist, PC gone mad me thinks, the only difference is that his views are different from yours or mine that's all and you and your kind are just a bunch of bloody hypocrites but then aren't we all hypocrites, you see some people just can't face the truth and shut their eyes to it and how do you konw that he's Australian is that not being racist against Australians GUEST,Confrontation Viper is it not.

As a matter of fact most of friends are Australians and they are not racists unlike you, but there you go eh!.

just because some has different views from you, you say that they are racist, or sexist and you don't even know them that's right kick WAV when they're down.

but that's up to you isn't it

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30 Apr 08 - 08:34 AM (#2329644)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: goatfell

oh and another thing proof that WAV is from Australia, in other words put up or shut up

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30 Apr 08 - 08:37 AM (#2329649)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Jack Blandiver

200

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30 Apr 08 - 08:38 AM (#2329650)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

"It does sound like Eliza C got sick of arguing with you or listening to rhetoric."...maybe, but she was a lot more reasonable about it than some of the viper-critics on this thread.

To Sedayne - Marxism before Marx?!...

Poem 82 of 230: ON ACTS 4:32-35

Believers were all one in heart and mind -
    They shared their excesses, giving in kind.
No-one claimed any possessions one's own -
    Yes, it was socialism on the throne.

So not long were there desperate folk -
    Fair distribution was the tongue they spoke.
And wealthy owners would sell part their deed -
    Funds, via apostles, to those in need.

Yet today, all round our troubled earth,
    Some Christians, safe at their own snug hearth,
Vote for their electorate's Right-Wing party -
    That's hypocritical, it seems to me.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

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30 Apr 08 - 09:06 AM (#2329679)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Jack Blandiver

I don't think anyone's kicking anyone when they're down here, Arran; on the contrary, I think WAV has stood up remarkably well under such, ahem, scrutiny, even if he has ducked certain key points. No-one is trial here, God forbid.

As for WAV being Australian, it's a moot point, regarding one's culture as oppose to one's ethnicity, in terms of where one was socialised, as oppose to where one was born. So in no way are such comments racist, rather they call into question whether or not one is qualified to call oneself an Englishman when the defining years of ones life were spent in Australia.

This much WAV is quite open about, and is clear to anyone who meets him or listens in to his myspace site. As I've said to him myself, I think he should be doing everything in his power to keep his accent as a mark of his unique individuality, rather than try to lose it as part of the process of his repatriation. But each to their own. In this day and age one can be trans-cultural as well as trans-sexual, or watever else one wants to be. One thing one can't change is one's ethnicity, which is perhaps the defining aspect of ones humanity after all.

Marxism before Marx? You know, WAV, I was brought up with idea that Jesus Christ was the first Communist, so the Jesuist Teachings (i.e the teachings of Jesus without the religious hoo-hah) remain an essential aspect of my life today.

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30 Apr 08 - 09:19 AM (#2329697)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: TheSnail

... earth,
... hearth,
... party -
... seems to me.

Oh dear.

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30 Apr 08 - 09:25 AM (#2329706)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: glueman

One man's folk is another man's volk. The music has always trod a fine line between distasteful nationalism and maypole whimsy and I doubt we'll unravel those garlands in this thread.

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30 Apr 08 - 10:42 AM (#2329777)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

Dick Miles, above, I think, has a great English timbre (from both his concertina and his voice), but he's left us for Ireland; Les Barker (from what I've heard on radio) is a fine English folk-poet, but he's left us for Wales...?!

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30 Apr 08 - 11:58 AM (#2329841)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Jack Blandiver

Stop trolling, WAV - you'll do yourself no favours!

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30 Apr 08 - 12:16 PM (#2329849)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

No, Sedayne, I think that was reasonably relevant to the two posts before, and the rest of the thread - including my first post which mentions not so good folk-timbre.

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30 Apr 08 - 01:38 PM (#2329919)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

'But sticking with religion for a moment'

Let's not...well you can if you want, but please leave me out of it. More people have probably died in the name of whatever god they worship, than for any other reason. If that view makes me any less a patriot then so be it.

'"It does sound like Eliza C got sick of arguing with you or listening to rhetoric."...

Aye, you end up agreeing with someone just to shut'em up, sometimes that works, most times it doesn't....*sigh*

Charlotte R

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30 Apr 08 - 01:50 PM (#2329932)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Big Al Whittle

so when's the next time, you're off for a coroborree cobber?

I was always a big fan of The Flying Doctor radio programme. Even now the phrase, Wollumbula Base to Flyin' doctor?

.......well it raises the goose pimples.

Cor! Suck a wallaby Blue!

Alright Snowy!

In these days of kitchen sink realism, you don't get scripts of that quality.

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30 Apr 08 - 01:53 PM (#2329934)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

But - given that we've been discussing loss/or not of culture - some say the deterioration of English society is largely because folks have stopped going to church, CR..?

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30 Apr 08 - 01:54 PM (#2329935)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

One person's "deterioration" is another person's "progression". Change is often hard to accept.

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30 Apr 08 - 01:57 PM (#2329939)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

'But - given that we've been discussing loss/or not of culture - some say the deterioration of English society is largely because folks have stopped going to church, CR..? '

But nothing...I just finished saying leave me out of any discussion relating to religion...I don't care whose it is!

Charlotte R

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30 Apr 08 - 02:02 PM (#2329951)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

Agreed Ron, and some people have a harder time than most. The world has moved on and there's nothing but nothing that is going to change that, and it's certainly not going to bring back an England that never existed in the first place.

Charlotte R

ps. I'm listening to The Imagined Village right now, and then plan on listening to part of Mighty River of Song - The Watersons. :-D

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30 Apr 08 - 02:06 PM (#2329954)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

Well said Charlotte! We enjoy the treasures we have.

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30 Apr 08 - 03:04 PM (#2330020)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

'One person's "deterioration" is another person's "progression". Change is often hard to accept.'...but few in England, Ron, would deny that social problems are much worse than, say, 50 years ago - they would tend to argue, rather, over cause and solution.

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30 Apr 08 - 03:10 PM (#2330025)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

'but few in England, Ron, would deny that social problems are much worse than, say, 50 years ago'

Proably even those who weren't alive 50 years ago? Highly unlikely. More wishful thinking me thinks, more spurious ammunition for the racist cause.

Charlotte R

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30 Apr 08 - 03:18 PM (#2330035)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

I can't speak for what you are dealing with in England, but social problems continue to change focus. My guess is that the problems you are currently facing existed in the past - but were overlooked or denied.

Here in the United States, if you spoke to most people in the 1920's they would have said that we did not have a civil rights issue - but thanks to people who kept fighting and brought the issue to daylight, the problems were and are still being tackled.

If you truly examine most social problems, you will find a history that is longer than you would think - all it takes are a few people to do something about it.

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30 Apr 08 - 03:33 PM (#2330050)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

Ron, from my reading, the issue of immigration, and should and who shouldn't be allowed into England, is one that has been on going for more years that I'd care to count, certainly longer than I've been alive. My father has related tales to me the events of which, took place in, in this particular case, Birmingham. One in particular, I recall, of my father and a friend of his attending a rally at which the arch British racist Enoch Powell spoke. As you can imagine, the heckling was on-going and very loud, anyway, this friend of my father's was dragged out of the assembly room by Powell's goons and beaten very severely, spending, as a result, two weeks in hospital. I believe Billy Bragg has a couple of similar tales in his book The Progressive Patriot...nothing changes.

Charlotte R

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30 Apr 08 - 03:45 PM (#2330057)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon

If you read the history of the Hugeonots in London, you can see some striking paprallels with today.

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30 Apr 08 - 04:12 PM (#2330083)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

I found this dedication on the 1994 Waterson:Carthy CD. it jumped right out at me.....

read it...closely

'This album is dedicated "to the Bampton Morris Men and the Goathland Plough Stots long sword team in general, and all the men and women in particular, who have held in trust our ever-changing, infinitely adaptable tradition - our real heritage - for no other reason than it was there.'

Charlotte R

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30 Apr 08 - 04:47 PM (#2330106)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

But it's less-and-less "there" for the majority sadly, CR - what is out there is loads of pop, rock, rap, etc. I was lucky to hear of the below Gathering; then, as I got into the internet, find out about folk clubs; but, before that, frankly, I was very ignorant of the folk scene in England and beyond - as are far too many, I fear.

Poem 193 of 230: THE 35TH MORPETH NORTHUMBRIAN GATHERING – SPRING 2002

Toward Morpeth's Gathering,
    Either side of Great North Road,
Daffodils gleefully showed
    Their stalk-dressing flowering.

And then, at the Gathering,
    Another great flowering
Of English heritage, showed
    Through competitions that glowed
With competent folk-singing,
    Storytelling, bag-piping -
The small-pipes rapidly rode
    By hands, in staccato mode -
Clogdancing and stick-dressing:
    Things that are worth addressing.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

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30 Apr 08 - 05:00 PM (#2330114)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole catcher's unplugged Apprentice

"what is out there is loads of pop, rock, rap, etc."

I'm broad-minded enough for it not to bother me, so get used to it...and I'm not the least bit interested in your 'poetry' thanks.


Charlotte R

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30 Apr 08 - 06:46 PM (#2330196)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: The Sandman

walkabout, I see the influence of Topaz.

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01 May 08 - 08:25 AM (#2330480)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

"Traditions are handed-down, but they are best cared for by meritocracy – not nepotism." (me)...I think this does happen, to some extent, within the folk-scene here - i.e., the children of well-respected folkies get airplay, etc. for doing pretty much what they want (such as going pop), to the disadvantage of others who are performing well WITHIN THE TRADITION.

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01 May 08 - 08:27 AM (#2330482)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Big Al Whittle

Personally, I trace the decline of western civilisation to when they stopped producing morally uplifting programmes like Flying Doctor and Howards Way.

There is part of the English psyche that sailed off with Ken Masters in The Flying Fish. And it was the good part.

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01 May 08 - 08:44 AM (#2330491)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Andrez

Well it seems that people are still stoking this particular fire instead of putting it out.

I must I am curious about one thing Walkabout, where did you do your degree i.e at what university and in what year did you graduate?

Cheers,

Andrez

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01 May 08 - 10:07 AM (#2330570)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,eliza c

Just to clarify, everyone-I said to David that he was welcome to post his poems on my mySpace but he could keep his (offensive IMHO) politics to himself. The only area of agreement between us is that English traditional music is a Good Thing and should be played and enjoyed. We disgree about what that is, and the processes it naturally goes through in order to remain a genuine tradition and not a nostalgia or fantasy exercise. Why are his threads not in the BS? I thought Mudcat was a resource for people who wanted to learn about traditional music or customs. All David wants to do is spread his own ideas and poetry. He is treating this board as his vanity publisher. And I just totally fed him, too. Sorry guys, but I really don't want to be associated with him.
ec

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01 May 08 - 10:16 AM (#2330576)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: John MacKenzie

"He is treating this board as his vanity publisher."


A thought that has occurred to me many times Eliza.


G

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01 May 08 - 10:20 AM (#2330579)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: M.Ted

For what its worth, I think originally, Mudcat was supposed to be inclined toward the Blues--

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01 May 08 - 10:20 AM (#2330580)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Jeri

And me. It's like his personal blog and no one I know cares to read it. Don't know why no one moved it down before now.

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01 May 08 - 10:39 AM (#2330602)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

Yes, Eliza, I do want a lot of people to read my life's work, as I believe it's a good way forward for humanity; but I think I, and others on this thread have only linked to their own work when it's REASONABLY RELEVANT; e.g., when Andrez, above, questions my credentials, why not say - it's within here, for free?

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01 May 08 - 10:45 AM (#2330604)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Joe

The point is WAV, you take comments made by anyone, including certain folk 'celebrities', take them wildly out of context, and present them as support for your views. I see this as extremely rude and offensive to the likes of Eliza, and other names you have mentioned in trying to justify your views.

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01 May 08 - 10:51 AM (#2330613)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon

How is rhyming 'view' with 'situ' a "good way forward for humanity"?

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01 May 08 - 11:23 AM (#2330647)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

You're wrong, frankly, Joe - it was another, against my argument, who quoted Eliza (and other "folk 'celebrities'"), before I mentioned we'd had such a discussion on myspace. I did, just once on this thread, quote the late Bob Copper, from a documentary, and, if the BBC show it again, you can decide if it was "wildly out of context".

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01 May 08 - 11:27 AM (#2330652)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Big Al Whittle

What's WAV got to say, perhaps I'll support his views. Is it interesting?

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01 May 08 - 12:06 PM (#2330684)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: The Sandman

I agree with Eliza Carthy,which is why WALKABOUT VERSE was deleted as one of my friends on my space,about three months ago.Dick Miles

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01 May 08 - 01:43 PM (#2330767)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

The fall of English society and its associated moralities can be traced to the cancellation of Watch With Mother and Listen With Mother, least that's what my dad says. :-D

re eliza-c
"Sorry guys, but I really don't want to be associated with him."

Well that's perfectly clear WAV. :-)


Charlotte R

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01 May 08 - 01:58 PM (#2330780)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Big Al Whittle

Yes ineed, have you seen the muffin man?

yes i've seen the muffin man!

why its just a homophobic rant.

you don't have to get under the piano stool to see that.

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01 May 08 - 02:06 PM (#2330784)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

Cheers for that, you two - only 5136 left then :-(

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01 May 08 - 02:10 PM (#2330789)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,THe Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

nothing under the piano stool except one or two dust bunnies and some household pests, I really must vacuum this weekend *LOL*

Charlotte R

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01 May 08 - 02:33 PM (#2330807)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: The Sandman

WALKABOUT VERSE, Quantity,you have.
Quantity street.

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01 May 08 - 04:12 PM (#2330900)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

It's WalkaboutsVerse, Captain Birdseye: I took the first and last words from the title of my book "Walkabouts: travels and conclusions in verse," as my real name is very common and, in your language, "quantity street" in Google, etc.

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01 May 08 - 06:21 PM (#2331001)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Mr Red

A Georgia accent is a far cry from a Boston one, just like Londoners don't speak like Brummies.

No, they doh owr kid. And Brumegem doh spake lark us Black Country kids, they doh.

But the point is: Georgia, Boston, and yes even T'ronto is distinct as a group as being North American (continentally). A lot has to do with familiarity but there is a theme running through the continent linguistically. And those that like labels will stick one on you - as it were.

Me? I ay arf posh, wen I ar wonts tu bee. Ma mon.

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02 May 08 - 08:48 AM (#2331215)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

I think, Mr. Red, once the spelling is changed or other words are used it goes from being an accent to a distinct dialect. I didn't try any dialect poetry in my collection, but I know that Lancashire- and Geordie-dialect-verse, e.g., are still quite popular.

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02 May 08 - 10:14 PM (#2331725)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Andrez

No David, I'm not questioning your credentials, I just want to know where you did your "work", and I dont want to spend time looking through your website. If you dont want to give a straight answer to a simple question then I can conclude that your claims as to "qualifications" are likely to be as specious as some of your other views.

Andrez

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03 May 08 - 03:30 AM (#2331814)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

Adelaide - I got half-way through a BA in NSW Uni then, after wanderlust, completed it by majoring in anthroplogy, taking the maximum number of subjects allowed.

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03 May 08 - 08:36 AM (#2331925)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Andrez

Yes well thanks for that David but the information provided about your degree is just what you have put out previously.

I am asking you to identify the specific tertiary institution (and the year of graduation) from whom you earnt your degree. So as an Alumnus from Adelaide, did you do your Anthropology studies at Flinders University,   University of Adelaide, University of South Australia or were you an off campus student with another Australian institution while based in Adelaide. Oh by the way if its not too much extra to ask, what was the actual name of your degree?

Cheers,

Andrez

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03 May 08 - 05:03 PM (#2332238)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

BA Degree in Humanities at the University of Adelaide (I did visit Flinders University, to check a book on revolts in the Philippines).

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04 May 08 - 12:07 PM (#2332646)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: goatfell

I didn't realize that you were Australian WAV, and like most Australians they are racists I mean look at the way they treat Aboridgeines in Australia and they still do, as some said Australis is old South Africa.

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04 May 08 - 12:23 PM (#2332658)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

You're mistaken on all counts, Arran: firstly I'm an English repat.; secondly, attitudes seem to have changed for the better the last few years in Aus. - e.g., if you watched the news, wherever you live, you may well have heard new PM, Rudd, making a formal apology to Aborigines. And are you sure you should say "they" as in all are the same?! I've written a poem about LAND RIGHTS if you'd care to look.

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04 May 08 - 12:42 PM (#2332672)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: glueman

"...and like most Australians they are racists."

Cough, splutter. Isn't that a little racist?

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05 May 08 - 08:51 AM (#2333227)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon

English repat, were you born in England?

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05 May 08 - 09:25 AM (#2333244)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

Yes, Volgadon - it was actually St. Mary's Hospital, Manchester, the day Alf Ramsey's English team won the World Cup of football.
Back to the topic, I don't have it now, but, on a Musician's Channel, I heard it said by an instructor that someone can play whatever they want as an intro. or interlude to a pop-song...sadly, I think, many of the recordings on folk-radio have adopted that idea - and some interludes go on for so long one could easily forget what the lyric was on about...again, I prefer the traditional way.

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05 May 08 - 11:32 AM (#2333298)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,eliza c

David,
   The "traditional" way is to move naturally with the times. What you are talking about is freezing your whimsical idea of tradition in aspic,making everyone the same. That is not music, it is not tradition and it is not life.
e

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05 May 08 - 12:04 PM (#2333336)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

On the contrary, Eliza, I think globalisation (e.g., many nationals "going-pop"/employing pop-methods such as the one mentioned above) is much more likely to make "everyone the same". Masai leaders, e.g., are well aware of globalisation/potential loss of culture, and they are very stubborn and determined against it...as I said in poem # 52: "I like the Masai"!

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05 May 08 - 12:16 PM (#2333342)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Acorn4

It's a bit "War and Peace" this thread isn't it -when I read the title couldn't see why it was going on for so long.

I'm going to try to avoid getting involved in all the controversial stuff. We're probably all familiar with the film "Oh, Brother, Where Art Thou" -it led to a great revival of interest in Old Time American Music. This music had always been there, has always been findable, and has a band of followers on both sides of the pond, but why did it need a film to make people discover it? Mick Peat on "Folkwaves" recently mourned the fact that there was not an English equivalent to give the same profile to English Folk music.

Perhaps the argument should be more about marketing culture and media spotlighting rather than about accents. I probably like American and English music about equally, but do, I'll admit, have a problem with a lot of "world music", simply because if I'm listening to singing in a language I don't understand, I am, to all intents and purposes, listening to an instrumental. I therefore find myself switching off.

I'll probably regret posting on this thread. Hope I'm not going to get my head bitten off by someone.

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05 May 08 - 12:34 PM (#2333362)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

...no talking-heads on here, Acorn4...yet?!

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05 May 08 - 12:37 PM (#2333365)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

:-(

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05 May 08 - 03:30 PM (#2333484)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Frank Lee

A young lad edged rather nervously into The Radway at the last Sidmouth festival. He played the 'The Sportsmans' Hornpipe' on his melodeon, and in an attempt to alleviate his apparent discomfort at finding himself in the Lion's Lair of all music sessions, someone decided to show an interest in him and asked the name of the tune he had just played. 'Er, I'm not sure', came the reply, 'It's a John Spiers tune'.
What does this tell us? - nothing much? Or an awful lot about where our traditional music is going?
Frank Lee.

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05 May 08 - 03:51 PM (#2333502)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

" What does this tell us? - nothing much? "

the lad learned it from John Spiers, who presumably learned it from another source ad infinitum....

and on another point, or should I say the same one re-ierated..

On the contrary, Eliza, I think globalisation (e.g., many nationals "going-pop"/employing pop-methods such as the one mentioned above) is much more likely to make "everyone the same".

Eliza C is NOT talking about globalisation or anything like it..what she is saying is that, and I quote "The "traditional" way is to move naturally with the times" umm...again I present The Imagined Vilage (which Eliza appears on, by the way) as evidence of the tradition moving forward in good way, a natural way...it's one of my favourite CD's. The tradition isn't a museum piece in a glass case to be viewed by the paying punters, it's a living thing, ever changing, ever growing, and long may it do so.

Charlotte R

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05 May 08 - 04:44 PM (#2333539)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon

Pop music has always influenced traditional music. Music halls didn't kill it, now did they? I love the aspic image.

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05 May 08 - 05:11 PM (#2333566)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

"Pop music has always influenced traditional music"...Pop music derived from American religious music last century, Volgadon - trad. music goes back a tad further than that!. But, yes, it is increasingly influencing trad. muscics, sadly.

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05 May 08 - 05:41 PM (#2333592)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole catcher's unplugged Apprentice

"But, yes, it is increasingly influencing trad. muscics, sadly."

That's the tradition on the march, ever moving forward, ever changing, the world, nor its musiks, stand still for no one, thank god!

Charlotte R

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05 May 08 - 07:01 PM (#2333644)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon

No, pop music means popular music. American religious music of the last century is one of the many sources of today's pop music, but hardly the only one, or even the most definitive.

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06 May 08 - 06:17 AM (#2333907)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

Folk music was, for a long-time popular - the music of the people - but what has come to be accepted as pop-music is something quite different: belting, more-often in one's head-voice, less earthy, miming, showing taut-toosh, if you'll pardong my French, etc.
And as for The Imagined Village, I'd genuinely rather imagine a proper English pub, in a proper English village, with proper English music...a clog-dancer by my side, a glass of mead in hand, and a stottie stuffed with chips and red-sauce on the table...and, out of the window, snow falling on swans as they glide gently by a river-licking weeping-willow...(further to poem # 72 MILLENNIUM DREAMS)

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06 May 08 - 06:35 AM (#2333910)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer

"a clog-dancer by my side, a glass of mead in hand, and a stottie stuffed with chips and red-sauce on the table...and, out of the window, snow falling on swans as they glide gently by a river-licking weeping-willow..."

I swear, sometimes I think WAV is actually a piss-take. MEAD, FFS?!

Pop music has been influencing the tradition since - well, since there was pop music. Many of the "source" singers collected in the earliest part of the revival sang music hall songs alongside their traditional songs. Sometimes collectors couldn't tell the difference.

That's why the kind of purism you advocate, WAV, is a completely false construct.

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06 May 08 - 07:21 AM (#2333935)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

"False construct" Ruth?...if not at my local, I can still get a stottie and find a chippie for it's stuffing; I can and do get a glass of mead at a nearby pub; with a bit of imagination, you should be able to picture a willow "licking" the river's flow; swans can be on the river when it's snowing in England; and there are still some English clog-dancers about...
Music hall songs are, again, very different from what most now understand pop to be - so yours is the "false construct"...and why are you so heavily against the idea of English culture in England?...don't you, like me, love our world being multicultural?

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06 May 08 - 07:32 AM (#2333943)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Joe

Noone is against 'English Culture' in England particularly, but 'English culture' is so very different from what you picture. Random chunks of things that happen to be English pulled together in some false construct??? Sounds like something they would have at Disneyland.

I'd rather have a curry, and a Corona on hot days.

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06 May 08 - 07:42 AM (#2333951)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

It was a response to The IMAGINED Village, Joe; and I prefered vegetable birianis, during my enjoyable month or so in India.

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06 May 08 - 07:56 AM (#2333959)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer

Music Hall songs were the popular music of their day. many cvollectors thought they "polluted" the tradition, yet many dource singers sang them. The false construct, WAV, is the assumption that there has ever been any kind of purism or parameters around English music.

Henry VIII brought in court musicians from Italy. Was the music played at his and subsequent courts less English for that? The throne of England has been littered with rulers from all over Europe, and each brought their own cultural influences to bear on "English" culture. Then, as someone mentioned earlier, there were the Huguenots,and the Dutch in the 17th century, and various other waves of immigration throughout history, which have all added their own influences to "English" culture. Right up to the present day.

People like you who believe in a monoculture are deluding themselves. This country has ALWAYS been a nation of immigrants.

The monocultural, village-green England you pine for was invented by the Victorians. It never existed. I say this as someone who lives not 50 yards from a picture-perfect English village green, flanked by a picture-perfect English pub. But I also know that my village is not (and has never been) the typical English experience, and I'm sensible enough to know how little relevance it bears to the majority of people who live in England today. And to insist that my experience is the "right" or "true" one, and that all the other people living in cities, or in suburbs, or on council estates somehow have a "less English" way of life as a result, is a complete absurdity.

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06 May 08 - 08:01 AM (#2333965)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Jack Blandiver

This is all getting rather - well if not extactly false, then certainly surreal, at least as far as WAV's very singular take on England's Dreamtime is concerned.

Even if such places do still exist, one is increasingly reminded of Vivian Stanshall's Rawlinson End, or ye merrye musinges of the Amazing Blondel: thoughts of church and priory inspire me and fire me dwell on times gone by.... On Sunday we attended the scarecrow festival in the village of Wray, a good old traditional English event which records show dates as far back to 1992; along the way we basked by rivers with licking willows and fed the gliding swans with chunks of stotty cake* and there was a Lancastrian clog dancer...

Otherwise - chips and red-sauce I can accept; Mead however (and I'm with Ruth on this one) is perhaps taking things too far, though I'm sure the Amazing Blondel sang of mead, though maybe not as an ideal accompaniment to chips and red-sauce, for which the traditional tipple would be a bottle of Dog (aka Newcastle Brown Ale).

Sedayne

*Interesting to note that the Stotty is unique to the North East, and even then, as far as quality is concerned, unique to Greggs, who only do their stotties in their North East shops. Our monthly visits to Tyneside are therefore three-folk: 1) to visit my family; 2) to attend Joe's come-all-ye at The Cumberland Arms in Byker, and 3) to buy a bag load of stotties from Greggs for the freezer.

---

06 May 08 - 08:04 AM (#2333967)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Jack Blandiver

three-fold of course - that darned F-word!

---

06 May 08 - 08:24 AM (#2333976)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

Yes, Ruth, although I don't like monarchism, I accept, as you suggest, that some kings were born-and/or-bred elsewhere and catalysed huge change when they arrived or returned; and I accept that England is indeed an old-old blend of mostly European cultures - until about 50 years ago, ie. (when, as you would know, immigrants were less than a percent of the population.) But the key thing is, given all that, what is best FROM NOW ON...Do you at least agree that because some phenomenom has occured for a long time it does not necessarily mean that it should definitely go on? I've said above what I think is best, from now on.
And I'm just hearing on the news of another independence referendum for Scotland in 2010 - God's speed to that.

---

06 May 08 - 08:35 AM (#2333979)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Joe

We are going round in circles, the idea of a distinct national culture is itself a false construct. In modern society there are no culturally isolated groups, different cultures (of which there are many types) overlap, and many are not limited by geography. As it has already been argued, the influences of local music, cuisine, etc do not stop dead at national boundaries.

'Do you at least agree that because some phenomenom has occured for a long time it does not necessarily mean that it should definitely go on?' No, but in the case of immigration yes. Would all the Eastern Europeans come and work in the UK if there werent any jobs? Why is there unemployment among the 'native' population whilst immigrants still manage to find work? Its too easy to blame the foreigners for all the problems in the UK, where in fact many of the problems are home grown.

---

06 May 08 - 08:38 AM (#2333982)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Silver Slug

The writer of a recent article in the Daily Mail bewailed the fact that 'village skills' had all but disappeared from England. He was talking about trades such as thatching, smithying, dry-stone walling and all of those other gentle trades that we associate with pre-industrial revolution village life.

I'm willing to bet that if we could speak to somebody who endured such a life they would call us lucky b'stards for not having to cope with mind-numbing, back-breaking work for little reward, with every chance of being thrown out of the tied cottage at the hint of old age or illness.

It is also very unlikely that such a person would know the joys of listening to Amerindian chants, drums and pipes or any form of music other than a small number of hymns and carols.

Time and music have moved on and definitely for the better. Folk is, in my opinion, just one of many styles of popular music which has benefited from the absorbtion of ideas from other cultures. (e.g. folk-rock) Move on or die!

---

06 May 08 - 09:02 AM (#2333998)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer

What Joe said.

---

06 May 08 - 09:08 AM (#2334002)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

In Japan, amid all the modernisation/Westernisation/gloabalisation/Americansiation, they have, I've heard, pensioned "national treasures" to keep the old traditions going, yes? But have you also heard it said that most people here do indeed like folk music, when it's given a chance - and that's the thing, it isn't nowadays...even on an otherwise great programme Countryfile (BBC) they often use American Country music for backing to an article on the English country side - that IS sad; and it is good that finally more English people are speaking-out against suchlike.

---

06 May 08 - 09:39 AM (#2334012)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Joe

Surely then, groups such as Bellowhead, Seth Lakeman etc, provide the key to the world of folk music to most people, because of the similarities with other genres. This seems more plausable than someone randomly coming across a performance of unaccompanied folk singing and instantly connecting. Im not saying the latter is impossible, but that the former is something that I have witnessed many times.

---

06 May 08 - 10:10 AM (#2334037)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Neil D

Then, as someone mentioned earlier, there were the Huguenots,and the Dutch in the 17th century, and various other waves of immigration throughout history, which have all added their own influences to "English" culture. Right up to the present day.
   
    It has been estimated that more than 1/4 of the poulation of England and as much as 1/6 of the population of the USA are descended from French Huguenots.

---

06 May 08 - 10:38 AM (#2334054)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

"To Ron: recently on tv the concern was raised that a very high percentage of childrens programmes, e.g., in England now are from America - is that "evolution" or replacement/globalisation/Americanisation...and here, again, I must stress that I do enjoy some American culture/music myself, but we in England DO have our own good culture, which IS being lost, which is NOT good for our society. "

WAV- you never answered my question. WHY are you importing such a high percentage of American programs? Why aren't there more opportunities for "homegrown" problems? What do American programs offer that are different from yours? You do have a very good culture, but what does that have to do with teaching skills?

I'm not sure why you feel that you are losing your culture and cannot accept that life is evolving. There are no calls for buggywhip manufacturers anymore, but we have preserved what the process was like and we teach our children what life was like back then.   We've progressed since we first began rubbing two sticks together to make fire or beating our clothes against rocks. Life changes, culture changes. It is one thing to preserve the old traditions, but is wrong to continue those traditions if they force other traditions from being allowed to grow.

We live in a global world and it won't be going back.

---

06 May 08 - 10:42 AM (#2334060)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: The Sandman

I know what I would like to tell walkabout verse to do,butIwould be banned from mudcat.

---

06 May 08 - 10:59 AM (#2334065)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Lowden Jameswright

If you can manage to get your head as far up your arse as possible, you may find true enlightenment. Meanwhile, try and enjoy some fresh air.

---

06 May 08 - 11:01 AM (#2334066)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

The US is obviously very powerful/influential, Ron...I, for one, wish the UN (where, at least in theory, it's one nation/one vote, yes?...I think I heard that on my VISIT to NY/UN in 1997) was a lot more powerful. Again, that's NOT to say I'm against all US citizens - I like John Steinbeck, e.g...although he didn't seen to sympathise with Amerindians much...perhaps he did in a novel I never read..?

---

06 May 08 - 11:15 AM (#2334072)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

The UN is going to bring homegrown childrens television back to the UK???

---

06 May 08 - 11:31 AM (#2334081)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Joe

Would those be tales of selling guns to Militia groups?

---

06 May 08 - 11:47 AM (#2334095)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: goatfell

I jsut wold love it one day when English people shut up about 1966, we and the world know that you won the world cup but 42 years ago ,I mean you never talk about 1967 when we (the Scots) beat you at Wembley 3-2, that makes us the unoffical world champs doesn't but when you come up to Scotland or meet a Scot they don't go on about 1967 do they, good on you England but it was 42 years ago.

---

06 May 08 - 11:50 AM (#2334098)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Banjiman

"I jsut wold love it one day when English people shut up about 1966, we and the world know that you won the world cup but 42 years ago ,I mean you never talk about 1967 when we (the Scots) beat you at Wembley 3-2, that makes us the unoffical world champs doesn't but when you come up to Scotland or meet a Scot they don't go on about 1967 do they, good on you England but it was 42 years ago."

Bit of a chip on the shoulder there old boy, I think!!!!

Paul

---

06 May 08 - 11:54 AM (#2334100)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: The Sandman

Iwould like it,IF every time I go to Glasgow,I was not asked about the bloody Battle of Culloden.

---

06 May 08 - 12:14 PM (#2334110)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

I've enjoyed my VISITS to Scotland, Flower of Scotland is on my Top Friends, and God's speed to the SNP...who knows, maybe Gordon Brown will join them soon?!

---

06 May 08 - 12:28 PM (#2334113)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Acorn4

WDFU Ron-

An intersting point to add to the TV programmes slant of the thread is that a clear majority of children who were asked actually preferred the home grown programmes.

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06 May 08 - 12:50 PM (#2334126)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer

"WAV- you never answered my question. WHY are you importing such a high percentage of American programs? Why aren't there more opportunities for "homegrown" problems? What do American programs offer that are different from yours? "

Ron, what they offer is cheapness. Buying in is substantially cheaper than producing, and the BBC and ITV have had their budgets for producing children's programming slashed in the last 10 years, just as the digital platforms have come on-line which allow them to broadcast many more hours of children's programmes, including dedicated digital channels.

Go figure.

---

06 May 08 - 12:51 PM (#2334129)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

I don't doubt it Acorn4! Which brings up my still unanswered questions - why is it happening and how is the UN supposed to solve it?

Having worked in television production for the last 28 years, I know that EVERY decision is based on $$$$. There is a reason why the American programs are being imported and why more UK based shows are not - if that is indeed the case.   Television in the U.S. does not come cheap, so there is larger reason why.

---

06 May 08 - 12:53 PM (#2334130)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: The Sandman

WAV,You missed my point.
I have enjoyed my many visits to Scotland too.
What I object to is a small minority of Glaswegians,who when they hear an english accent,bring up the subject of Culloden,in an attempt to provoke a fight,
like wise I object to Rangers and Celtic, [So called football supporters],who engage in tribal warfare,based on hatred of another religious sect.
I object to your views on English traditional music and Immigration.your time[imo] would be better spent on playing the recorder.

---

06 May 08 - 01:08 PM (#2334142)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon

Until what point?
I think Walter Pardon makes an interesting study.

"Well before he was old enough for it, pub-singing in that part of Norfolk had faded away, and he commented: "My generation ridiculed songs. There were no young men forty years ago, when I was twenty, who went near a man of sixty to hear the songs. That is a fact. I never did sing out of the house - hardly. The only time I used to sing in here was Christmastime. We finished all Christmas parties when Mother died … the last time was 1952. That just left Father and I here. Ever since, I've gone to an aunt who lived up the road, and in later years to my cousins. We never had any singing up there. I never sang up there or even took the accordeon out of the house. Nobody seemed to want to know anything about the songs, so they lay dormant until [my nephew] Roger Dixon - he was the one who wanted them - right from a boy."

But why do you think music hall songs so vastly different from today's pop music? They definitely weren't quite the same as what you consider folk songs. Then we've got Handel, did that upset purists in the 1730s?

"Folk music was, for a long-time popular - the music of the people - but what has come to be accepted as pop-music is something quite different: belting, more-often in one's head-voice, less earthy, miming, showing taut-toosh, if you'll pardong my French, etc.
And as for The Imagined Village, I'd genuinely rather imagine a proper English pub, in a proper English village, with proper English music...a clog-dancer by my side, a glass of mead in hand, and a stottie stuffed with chips and red-sauce on the table...and, out of the window, snow falling on swans as they glide gently by a river-licking weeping-willow...(further to poem # 72 MILLENNIUM DREAMS)


"False construct" Ruth?...if not at my local, I can still get a stottie and find a chippie for it's stuffing; I can and do get a glass of mead at a nearby pub; with a bit of imagination, you should be able to picture a willow "licking" the river's flow; swans can be on the river when it's snowing in England; and there are still some English clog-dancers about...
Music hall songs are, again, very different from what most now understand pop to be - so yours is the "false construct"...and why are you so heavily against the idea of English culture in England?...don't you, like me, love our world being multicultural?

---

06 May 08 - 01:39 PM (#2334170)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

I suppose, Volgadon, music-hall songs could also be a tad cheeky!...but peformers weren't belting-out the lyrics in their head-voice, with lots of dynamics, as the top pop-singers do, and neither were they miming the way the worst pop-stars do, yes?

---

06 May 08 - 02:00 PM (#2334190)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer

WAV, i can't decide whether you're being deliberately obtuse. The point is that Music Hall was considered vulgar and populist by most of the collectors. This will be for myriad reasons that are no longer particularly relevant, because we can't really see music hall in context as we're viewing it from a distance of 100 years; the point is, but it was the popular music of its time. Performers would have deviated substantially from what was considered traditional music, and also from what was considered the "correct" way to sing traditional music. Just like pop music deviates from your ideas of what is acceptable. But many of the "source" singers still loved music hall, and sang it.

The whole point is that traditional culture should not be viewed in opposition to popular culture, but rather as something that exists alongside it. Neither is more valid than the other.

Blimey, it's not bleedin' rocket science, is it?

---

06 May 08 - 02:30 PM (#2334212)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

WAV, There is a scene in Flora Thompson's Lark Rise to Candleford (not sure if it's in the tv series) where a local lad, returning from serving in the army, brings with him a melodeon. He begins to play for a gathering crowd, and they begin to dance to the tunes he's playing, well guess what, according to Flora Thompson, all the tune's played were the "popular songs and tunes of the day", music hall included, no sign of the Ye Olde Merry England dance tunes that seem to exist no where else except in you head

Charlotte R

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06 May 08 - 02:35 PM (#2334219)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

"And as for The Imagined Village, I'd genuinely rather imagine a proper English pub, in a proper English village, with proper English music...a clog-dancer by my side, a glass of mead in hand, and a stottie stuffed with chips and red-sauce on the table...and, out of the window, snow falling on swans as they glide gently by a river-licking weeping-willow..."

and everyone is white....

You live in a fantasy world, a world,of stereotypes.., sunshine, get a grip!

Charlotte R

---

06 May 08 - 02:41 PM (#2334227)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

To RA and CR, I was answering this from Volgadon: "But why do you think music hall songs so vastly different from today's pop music?"

---

06 May 08 - 02:48 PM (#2334233)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon

Music hall was seen as crude and vulgar, without much artist value and was gripped about, much like with pop, but it didn't ruin folk music, so I don't think folk musicians adopting elements of pop will either. Much of it will be crap, but that is down to musicianship and is well worth the gems that we'll get, as well as making it more accesible.

You don't see much trad music being mimed, do you, so not sure what the point is. Besides, you can't mime on a recording!!!

---

06 May 08 - 02:49 PM (#2334234)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

My reply had SFA to do with music hall repetoires except in context of the scene in Lark Rise to Candleford, so stop being bloody obtuse for godssake. I was dealing with your fantasy world of Y Olde Merry Englande...and tea with the vicar, and all 'good' English types attending church etc etc..ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Dear god I feel like I'm looking into a world created by the Daily Telegraph....

Charlotte R

---

06 May 08 - 02:49 PM (#2334235)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer

I give up.

---

06 May 08 - 02:56 PM (#2334241)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: M.Ted

Oddly enough, many 19th Century "American" religious songs, particularly those used by the Savation Army, were music hall songs rewritten with religious lyrics.

As to US children's programs in the UK--US public television if full of UK children's programs--

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06 May 08 - 03:08 PM (#2334247)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Jack Blandiver

What's all this guff about TV? Surely if any one factor can be blamed for the mass dis-empowerment of human creativity & the erosion of cultural diversity then it's television. Irrespective of where the programmes are made, it's all corporate mind-fuck.

Meanwhile, here's a home-movie I made of a monkey playing with a dead mouse in Edinburgh zoo; the music is The Monkey-Doodle-Doo from the Four Marx Brothers' debut talkie The Cocoanuts (1929).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atN8qQfcsGc

---

06 May 08 - 03:09 PM (#2334249)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer

"US public television if full of UK children's programs-- "

M Ted - it's all about Charlie and Lola. Do you get Balamory?

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06 May 08 - 03:19 PM (#2334254)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The MOle Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

Actually PBS' Masterpiece Theatre is wholly English in content, if anyone shows the tv adaptation of Lark Rise to Candleford it'll be them. British comedy is a staple on PBS as was the production of Robin of Sherwood, the list is endless. BBC Canada and BBC America are also both available. So why os American programming on British TV any different, mind you, you do hear the complaint in reverse..There's not enough American programming on PBS ...

Oh and on CBC here in Canada we get Doctor Who and Torchwood... *LOL*

Charlotte R

---

06 May 08 - 03:20 PM (#2334255)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

Balamory was shown on the Discovery Kids network.

---

06 May 08 - 03:24 PM (#2334259)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

Not sure how relevant this is, but it does make for interesting reading.

England; Whose England?

I'm off to the shops *LOL*

Charlotte R

---

06 May 08 - 05:26 PM (#2334355)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon

I loved the mention of Sir Henry at Rawlinson's End. WAV, have you heard it?

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06 May 08 - 05:32 PM (#2334358)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Jack Blandiver

Have a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU1e9m4QiMM

Well, a listen anyway. This is one of the Rawlinson End Peel sessions set to some decidedly dodgy graphics; close your eyes & it's as priceless an evocation of England as one could wish.

---

06 May 08 - 05:49 PM (#2334379)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

'Some English country dances are for a set number of couples - others are traditionally announced as being "for as many as will". I believe the English folk heritage can also be for "as many as will". For an example of this ecumenical spirit, listen to Edward II ( later E2K )- a band including a number of English-born Rastafarians - wellying into Shepherd's Hey, a century after Sharp collected that tune from Kimber. They show that music with traditional roots can still flourish in a multi-cultural environment.'

- sourced from the essay England, Whose England

Speaks loud and clear to me.

Charlotte R

---

06 May 08 - 08:44 PM (#2334471)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: M.Ted

My kids loved Balamory, though I did have to explain to my son why the man was wearing a dress--we also watch Charlie and Lola, Brum, Teletubbies, Boombah, and it has been pointed out that one of the Tots TV characters looked a lot like me. Some of the shows are a bit different in the US, Tilly spoke Spanish, for instance.

PBS would be impossible without BBC programming, though for some reason, what is merely "entertainment" on BBC is considered "educational" when it is broadcast here. Felicity Kendall, for instance.

---

07 May 08 - 04:17 AM (#2334650)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon

I think WAV wants musical ditchwater, to borrow a phrase from Viv.

---

07 May 08 - 04:54 AM (#2334672)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer

I think many young British boys found Felicity Kendall's telly appearances quite educational, MTed... :0)

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07 May 08 - 05:08 AM (#2334681)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Jack Blandiver

I always preferred Penelope Keith to be honest...

---

07 May 08 - 05:13 AM (#2334685)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer

Clearly more specialist tastes at work there, Sedayne...

;0)

---

07 May 08 - 05:24 AM (#2334689)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

"I think WAV wants musical ditchwater, to borrow a phrase from Viv." (Volgadon)...WAV could do with a musical dishwasher while he ploughs through the rest of "England, whose England" (above)!...but in part 1 it should be St. Patrick's night ceili (Ireland) not ceilidh (Scotland); and it misses another key reason for lack of government support for English culture/traditions - i.e., monarchists trying to keep the UK together. Tony Blair, born in Scotland, said, "We don't want a return of English nationalism"...Oh, yes, we do - WITHOUT any imperialism this time. It also mentioned sports, so I'll post this...

"SPORTS

A similar mess over nationality occurs in the sporting world where English children, for example, can hope to play (perhaps managed by a citizen of a nation they may compete against) football for England, rugby-league for England/Great Britain, rugby-union for England/British Isles, athletics for England/U.K., golf for England/Europe, cricket for a combined England and Wales, or tennis for Great Britain - but Wimbledon is still The All England Lawn Tennis Championships…Anyone for friendly-rival republics?!" (me)

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07 May 08 - 05:48 AM (#2334698)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Joe

"Oh, yes, we do"

Oh no we don't!

Wheres the Ghost of English Nationalism??? 'He's behind you!'

---

07 May 08 - 05:57 AM (#2334705)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Jack Blandiver

Wasn't it Hamish Henderson who sad that before one can be international one must first be national? However, WAV, that's a very different thing to the sort of ethnically cleansed Nationalism you're always banging on about.

Of late I've been thinking of myself more in terms of being British than English, which cuturally I am of course (as an Irish-Northumbrian-Jewish-expat-Geordie), but I'm beginning to find all this devolution stuff a tad worrying for the well-being of the (mainland) nation as a whole.

BTW, did anyone hear Musical Migrants on Radio 4 yesterday afternoon about Martin Green from Lau? Interesting in relation to this, and other WAV-type threads.

And yes, Ruth, I suppose specialist just about covers it, but my favourite was always Frances de la Tour who played the gorgeous Ruth Jones in Rising Damp!

---

07 May 08 - 08:15 AM (#2334772)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

"Wheres the Ghost of English Nationalism??? 'He's behind you!'" (Joe)...What the Dickens..?!

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07 May 08 - 08:55 AM (#2334807)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Joe

It was a metaphor for how absurd your opinions are, many people enjoy the consequences of living in a multicultural community (NO that does not equate to terrorist attacks, assaults on Morris Dancers, loss of real ale in pubs etc).

Certain members of our society have this bizarre idea that there is some sort of tangible national identity, which should be enforced for the good of the nation, regardless of the true consequences of such action.

---

07 May 08 - 09:07 AM (#2334824)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer

Sedayne - Frances de la Tour AND Penelope Keith? I'm building up a pretty clear picture...


I heard the Martin Green programme (how good is it that R4 seems to be integrating yet more folk content into its mainstream programming?!), and had the very same thoughts.

WAV would have been in despair, I expect, that one of our good English artists defected for Scotland purely because he was intoxicated by the music - never mind that this has resulted in one of the best traditional bands around.

BTW, I remember finding the brilliant Royal Oak pub myself during the Edinburgh Festival a couple of years ago, and running into Kris Drever and John McCusker there at about 4am...now THAT was a session.

---

07 May 08 - 03:04 PM (#2335093)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

"but Wimbledon is still The All England Lawn Tennis Championships"

I find watching my cat wash herself to be far more interesting...and very non-nationalistic *LOL*

Charlotte R

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07 May 08 - 05:24 PM (#2335197)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: trevek

Hmmm, some interesting commnts about cultures and accents.

As someone whose parents are from Scotland and Tyneside, but I was born in Shropshire... which is my culture?

If one talks about English culture there are lots of them... likewise Scottish culture(s). Just because someone is from a country does it mean thy have an automatic 'right' to consider all aspects of that country 'their' culture? I'm sure it wouldn't automatically work in America either Is there such a thing as American culture? Shouldn't it be cultureS?).

On the matter of accents... I was brought up listening to Scots and Tyneside songs. I sing them now and even more of them. Sorry guys, but if a song is in Geordie or Scots, well I'm afraid the accent gets put on a bit... can you imagine Robert Burns sung with a yo-yo accent?

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07 May 08 - 05:51 PM (#2335224)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,meself

I imagine Burns has been sung with every accent in the English-speaking world. Certainly when I was a kid in Canada singing Comin' Through the Rye, and as an adult in same singing Auld Lang Syne on New Year's Eve, it didn't and doesn't occur to me to lay on any kind of accent other than my own ...

Having said that - I don't know about the "yo-yo accent" - whatzzat?

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09 May 08 - 04:53 PM (#2336770)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

Just watched one of the Transatlantic Sessions on BBC 4, Meself, and though they had really good control of their instruments (at least, on the in-takes) but what are they playing at?

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09 May 08 - 08:57 PM (#2336909)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: meself

Um ... I know absolutely nothing about the "Transatlantic Sessions on BBC 4", so I have no basis for any kind of comment ... If you care to explicate, recount, or describe, perhaps I could light up my briar and, between puffs, pontificate ...

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10 May 08 - 05:32 AM (#2337033)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

...I think, Meself, it may be on BBC iPlayer, wherever you are..?

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10 May 08 - 06:02 AM (#2337041)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST

and though they had really good control of their instruments (at least, on the in-takes) but what are they playing at? ????

Erm, they're playing music for there own and others enjoyment. Is there anything more?

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10 May 08 - 06:14 AM (#2337044)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

When the BBC followed Scottish folk-degree students, Guest, we got Scots playing Scottish folk-music, and I thought IT was a good use of TV licence payer's money, etc.

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10 May 08 - 07:25 AM (#2337060)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: goatfell

Dear Joe Offer,

I thought that 'people' that just call themselves as guest wern't allowed on this website but they had to give their names and yet they are still doing this why is that?

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10 May 08 - 08:19 AM (#2337071)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

...so something else, Arran, is all at sea!

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10 May 08 - 02:14 PM (#2337239)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST

America doesn't have a corner on the folk market. It's hegemonic approach to music
is flat-out xenophobic.

Music has to be evaluated for its own merits, not because it comes from any particular
part of the world.

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10 May 08 - 02:25 PM (#2337246)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice

"I think, Meself, it may be on BBC iPlayer, wherever you are..? "

sorry , sunshine, the BBC iPlayer is not available to those residing outside of the United Kingdom. BBC Licensing Fees and all that :-D

Charlotte R

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10 May 08 - 03:19 PM (#2337271)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: WalkaboutsVerse

Nice here today...you seeing much "sunshine", Mole.?!

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10 May 08 - 06:08 PM (#2337333)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: meself

Perhaps I should have indicated that I'm in western Canada (where it is very sunshiny today) ...

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11 Jul 08 - 04:44 PM (#2386894)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Bee

It's going to be a bit messy when WAV runs the world and a few hundred million folk of English ancestry 'repatriate' into England.

First Nations people would no doubt be grateful, mind. ;-)

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11 Jul 08 - 05:00 PM (#2386908)
Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener

If it's the instigators vision of England that prevails, then I'm all for canvassing for the closure of the borders between England and Wales

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