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25 Apr 08 - 11:06 PM (#2325923) Subject: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre From: GUEST,Vulpes Fish Hi! I'm just wondering if anybody knows where the melody to the song 1913 Massacre by Woody Guthrie came from -- is anyone here aware of whether it is an older traditional melody, or is it Woody Guthrie's own creation? I'm sorry if this question has been asked before; I couldn't find anything relating to the tune of the song. Thank you for reading! :) Have a nice day. |
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26 Apr 08 - 01:08 AM (#2325956) Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre From: open mike is this the ludlow massacre? |
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26 Apr 08 - 01:20 AM (#2325960) Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie 1913 Massacre (Ludlow) From: GUEST Yes, that's the one. :) |
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26 Apr 08 - 07:17 AM (#2326095) Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre From: catspaw49 Nothing to do with Ludlow. Ludlow was coal in Colorado and this was copper in Michigan. Check the other threads I linked at the top of the page for some pretty decent history about the origins of the song. I don't recall whether the the tune source was covered or not. Spaw |
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26 Apr 08 - 09:03 AM (#2326148) Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre From: curmudgeon "To Hear the Nightingale Sing" |
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28 Apr 08 - 10:15 AM (#2327602) Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre From: Big Mick The Ludlow Massacre is an entirely different song and subject matter than the 1913 Massacre. The 1913 Massacre occurred in Calumet, Michigan and involved company thugs barricading a door in the stairwell leading to the second floor of the hall where the miners were having a Christmas party with the children. They then shouted that there was a fire. In the panic to get out of the building, children were crushed to death in the stairwell. Ludlow, Colorado was the scene a little over a year later of a series of violent skirmishes between the Colorado National Guard and the striking miners. The massacre described in the song precipitated much of the violence. The National Guard attacked the miners camp and killed 45 people, most of which were women and kids. The camp was set up by the striking miners, led by the Mineworkers Union, because the miners had been put out the company houses. All the best, Mick |
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29 Apr 08 - 07:57 AM (#2328479) Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre From: Suffet Greetings: The Wikipedia has the full story of what is called the Italian Hall Disaster. Of the 73 victims, 59 were children. The story is a lot more complicated than in Guthrie's song, and involves a long and bitter strike by the Western Federation of Miners (WFM) against the Calumet and Hecla Mining Company (C&H). Another act of violence during the strike was the kidnapping of WFM leader Charles Moyer. His captors shot him, and then placed him on a train with a warning not to return. After recovering from his wounds in Chicago, Moyer did in fact return to Calumet. That could be worthy of a song of its own. Here is a link to the Wiki article. --- Steve |
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29 Apr 08 - 11:15 AM (#2328643) Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre From: M.Ted There is a documentary film currently in production--it includes interviews with survivors--check it out here: 1913 Masssacre--The Movie |
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29 Apr 08 - 11:26 AM (#2328651) Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre From: M.Ted The connection between the Ludlow Massacre and the 1913 Massacre is this: both were described in union activist Ella Reeve "Mother" Bloor's autobiography We Are Many, published in 1940, in a chapter called "The Massacre of Innocents" and Woody's own notes indicate that this was his source |
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29 Apr 08 - 11:54 AM (#2328678) Subject: Lyr Add: LUDLOW MASSACRE (Woody Guthrie) From: Reiver 2 As Big Mick says, the 1913 Massacre at Calumet, MI, and the Ludlow Massacre in CO were two different events. They have in common at least 4 things: 1. Both involved labor unions and mines, 2. Both happened around the same time (1913-14), 3. Both involved the deaths of many women and children and, 4. Both were subjects of songs by Woody Guthrie. His song about the Ludlow Massacre apparently never achieved great popularity. I had never heard of it until now, and I had not seen a published version. Woody wrote it in the 1st person, as though he was actually there, but I've seen nothing to indicate that he was present. I visited Ludlow once a few years ago. Ludlow is pretty much a ghost town now, north of Trinidad in Las Animas Co. in SE Colorado. The story is tragic but very little known. Details can be found on Wikipedia, which is where I discovered these lyrics: Ludlow Massacre It was early springtime when the strike was on, They drove us miners out of doors, Out from the houses that the Company owned, We moved into tents up at old Ludlow. I was worried bad about my children, Soldiers guarding the railroad bridge, Every once in a while a bullet would fly, Kick up gravel under my feet. We were so afraid you would kill our children, We dug us a cave that was seven foot deep, Carried our young ones and pregnant women Down inside the cave to sleep. That very night your soldiers waited, Until all us miners were asleep, You snuck around our little tent town, Soaked our tents with your kerosene. You struck a match and in the blaze that started, You pulled the triggers of your gatling guns, I made a run for the children but the fire wall stopped me. Thirteen children died from your guns. I carried my blanket to a wire fence corner, Watched the fire till the blaze died down, I helped some people drag their belongings, While your bullets killed us all around. I never will forget the look on the faces Of the men and women that awful day, When we stood around to preach their funerals, And lay the corpses of the dead away. We told the Colorado Governor to call the President, Tell him to call off his National Guard, But the National Guard belonged to the Governor, So he didn't try so very hard. Our women from Trinidad they hauled some potatoes, Up to Walsenburg in a little cart, They sold their potatoes and brought some guns back, And they put a gun in every hand. The state soldiers jumped us in a wire fence corners, They did not know we had these guns, And the Red-neck Miners mowed down these troopers, You should have seen those poor boys run. We took some cement and walled that cave up, Where you killed these thirteen children inside, I said, "God bless the Mine Workers' Union," And then I hung my head and cried. One thing I'm curious about. In "The Woody Guthrie Songbook" most of the songs have a copywrite credit to LUDLOW MUSIC, INC. Is there any connection between the name of the music company and the events at Ludlow, CO? Reiver 2 |
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29 Apr 08 - 12:02 PM (#2328691) Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre From: Suffet Greetings: Ludlow Music is one of many publishing subsidiaries of The Richomond Organization, Inc., also known as TRO. Their address is 266 West 37th Street, New York, NY 10018. Their phone number is 212-594-9795. I doubt that there is any connection, but you can contact them and ask. --- Steve |
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29 Apr 08 - 06:07 PM (#2329117) Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre From: Art Thieme Rick Lee has a good recording of Woody's "Ludlow Massacre" 93 year old wobbly, Paul Durst (who I taped in 1961 in Chicago) told me he was there at the Ludlow strike back then. Art |
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29 Apr 08 - 08:37 PM (#2329260) Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre From: Bob the Postman Have I got this right, then? 1) Woody uses "Nightingale" for "1913" and then Dylan uses "1913" for "Hey hey Woody Guthrie I wrote you a song". 2) Dominic Behan uses "Nightingale" for "Patriot Game" and then Dylan uses "Patriot Game" for "God On Our Side". Where did Woody hear "Nightingale", I wonder? By the way, I've been going around telling folks that the tune for "Ludlow Massacre" was derived from the Carter Family's "No Depression". Or maybe I've got that wrong too? |
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29 Apr 08 - 10:49 PM (#2329368) Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre From: M.Ted It's a "folk song", and was likely one of those songs that folks sang--check this, from the Wolf collection Almeda Riddle sings "The Nightingale Song" |
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30 Apr 08 - 09:18 AM (#2329694) Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre From: Cool Beans "1913" and "Patriot Game" sure sound like different melodies to me. Or am I missing something? |
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30 Apr 08 - 12:32 PM (#2329862) Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre From: Big Mick One of my very favorite versions of "The Ludlow Massacre" was done by Christy Moore on his "Prosperous" album. It is the model on which I base my own version of the song. I might just do this song at one of the fundraisers for Utah that we are doing. All the best, Mick |
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30 Apr 08 - 07:55 PM (#2330228) Subject: RE: Origins: Woody Guthrie's 1913 Massacre From: Bob the Postman Cool Beans--what you said. Maybe versions of "To Hear The Nightingale Sing" can be as different from one another as "1913" is from "Patriot"? Or maybe curmudgeon was wide of the mark in positing "Nightingale" as the source tune for "1913"? |
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10 Apr 14 - 05:51 AM (#3617172) Subject: RE: Origins: 1913 Massacre (Woody Guthrie) From: GUEST I also hear echoes of Waggoner's Lad in the tune. |