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29 Apr 08 - 10:19 AM (#2328600) Subject: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Wolfgang Three Lesviots (1 male, 2 females) sue organized lesbians in Greece with the aim to interdict the use of the word "lesbians" for homosexual females. The use of this word for an aberration, they argue, makes Lesviots a target of ridicule when they tell where they come from. I wonder whether they will, in case of success, sue (at the European Court of Human Rights?) people of other native tongues than Greek if these persist in using the word "lesbian" with its present meaning. Well, since Greece insists that a neighbouring country (FYRoM) may not choose the name for itself as the inhabitants wish, this idea may not be so far fetched as it seems at the first glance. If they have success I see the municipal authority of Hamburg suing McDonald's for a billion dollar compensation for decades of ridicule when inhabitants of Hamburg had to say "I am a Hamburger". Then the inhabitants of Vienna ("Ich bin ein Wiener") will follow suit... Then I will sue all the English speakers for all the ridicule I had to suffer when introducing myself Wolfgang Hell |
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29 Apr 08 - 10:37 AM (#2328611) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Paul Burke Well it would be TWO females, wouldn't it? |
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29 Apr 08 - 10:53 AM (#2328621) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Uncle_DaveO Wolfgang, wouldn't a citizen of Hamburg say "Ich bin Hamburger" rather than "Ich bin ein Hamburger"? And likewise, "Ich bin Wiener", and so forth? What you say refers to something like JFK's goof, that "I am a jelly doughnut" rather than "I am a Berlin resident", I thought. Admittedly, my command of German is pretty sketchy, so correct me if I'm wrong. Dave Oesterreich |
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29 Apr 08 - 11:30 AM (#2328654) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Rapparee Ich bein LOL, since I rarely refer to the inhabitant of Lesbos as anything but Greeks. It would like referring to someone from Illinois as a "Sucker" since Illinois was historically known as "The Sucker State" or someone from Connecticut as a "Nutmeg." |
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29 Apr 08 - 11:37 AM (#2328663) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Wolfgang Dave, you are of course right, "Ich bin Wiener" is more common (but less fun in the context of this thread) than "Ich bin ein Wiener". The "ein" can be said and in my feeling gives the statement more emphasis. Kennedy's goof is an urban legend. In the context of his speech "Ich bin ein Berliner" was the best possible choice, far better than "Ich bin Berliner". (Of course, we boys then smiled about the double meaning) BTW, had he said "Ich bin ein Amerikaner" that also could heve had a double meaning of something sweet to eat [cookies with chocolate frosting or powdered sugar frosting]. John F. Kennedy in Berlin The gaffe that never was Wolfgang |
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29 Apr 08 - 02:36 PM (#2328894) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Jack Campin Some time in the early 1990s, a PR company persuaded the Turkish government that because of the negative associations "turkey" has in American English, they should try to persuade the entire English-speaking world to use the Turkish spelling of the country's name, "Türkiye" (which includes a vowel that doesn't actually exist in English). They spent large amounts of money for several years on posters the rest of the world must have thought were pretty silly (I don't think it's entirely over even now). The irony is that the Turkish word for "turkey" has an equally confused etymology. Western Europe thought turkeys were Turkish chickens and named them accordingly; the Turks thought they were Indian chickens and called them "hindi". And in modern Turkish that word has the same negative associations as "turkey" does in American English - more or less "bozo". You have to wonder how the Turkish government or TDK (the Turkish Language Foundation) would have reacted to a demand from India that they should start calling the place "Bharat". |
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29 Apr 08 - 02:54 PM (#2328903) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Ernest Well....ahem: Berliners don`t call Berliners Berliners. Only non-Berliners do. Just to make it more clearly: The inhabitants of Berlin don`t call jelly doughnuts "Berliner". They call them "Pfannkuchen" which means "pancakes". Which is of course quite different from a jelly doughnut. Pretty confusing, isn`t it? ;o) Ernest |
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29 Apr 08 - 03:44 PM (#2328947) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Wolfgang When I was a kid we all called them Kreppel or, rarely, Krapfen, but never Berliner. Wiener (graphic picture showing all details) that are never called Wiener in Wien. In Wien (and all Austria) they are called Frankfurter. So, how do the Hamburger call Hamburgers in Hamburg? Wolfgang |
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29 Apr 08 - 03:47 PM (#2328953) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: bankley When Bush2 came to Ottawa, I saw a women's protest group called "Lesbians Against Bush In America... LABIA.. seriously,,,, you can't make up shit this funny... and none of them looked Greek... |
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29 Apr 08 - 03:50 PM (#2328960) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Rapparee How do they ask for a frankfurter in Frankfurt, for that matter? |
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29 Apr 08 - 04:38 PM (#2329009) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Joe Offer Rapaire, it's "Einmal Bockwurst, bitte." At least in Berlin, Bockwurst is about as close as you can come to an American frankfurter. But take the Currywurst instead - it's cheaper, and much tastier. OK, Ernest, I'll bite. What do Berliners call themselves - Bären? Ossi??? This article (click) claims Kennedy was perfectly correct in saying "Ich bin ein Berliner." -Joe, who lived in Berlin 1972-73- |
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29 Apr 08 - 04:42 PM (#2329011) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Wolfgang Frankfurter use pork only, Wiener use a mixture of pork and beef. Wiener have a circular cross section, the Frankfurter a quadratic cross section with rounded corners. But the Wiener call wiener Frankfurter, whereas Frankfurter call wiener Wiener. The North Americans use the Wiener expression and therefore call wiener Frankfurter and probably don't even know real frankfurter. Are you still with me? The frankfurter were never called by this name in Frankfurt where they are known since at least the 13th century. The Frankfurter would have asked for a Brühwurst (scalded sausage). But then a Frankfurter butcher emigrated to Wien and had a big success there with his Brühwurst into which he added beef (what was not allowed in Frankfurt). For promotion purposes he called them Wiener Frankfurter which was shortened to frankfurter. Since then (early 19th century), the wiener are known outside of Germany and Switzerland as frankfurter. The success of the Wiener frankfurter made the Frankfurter take action against the name frankfurter (roughly middle of the 19th century). Since then, in Germany, the Frankfurter frankfurter are called frankfurter and this name is restricted to frankfurter produced in or near Frankfurt. In order to discern the Wiener frankfurter, they were then called wiener, a name the Wiener had never used for the Wiener frankfurter. A frankfurter produced in Germany not near to Frankfurt is called a Saitenwürstchen. A wiener in an intestine (mostly cow) with a larger cross section is called Bockwurst. I guess the Frankfurter ask for frankfurter if they want frankfurter but ask for wiener if they want wiener which a real Frankfurter of course would never do. Wolfgang |
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29 Apr 08 - 04:43 PM (#2329013) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Peace In Canada we elect out wieners. |
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29 Apr 08 - 04:54 PM (#2329025) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: bobad Well, MY wiener isn't standing for election! |
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29 Apr 08 - 04:55 PM (#2329027) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Wolfgang Frankfurter Bockwurst Wolfgang |
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29 Apr 08 - 05:31 PM (#2329061) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Gulliver I thought Hamburger were called Frikadellen in Hamburg. Don |
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29 Apr 08 - 05:45 PM (#2329080) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: McGrath of Harlow Do Greek lesbians use the term Lesviot? |
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29 Apr 08 - 07:36 PM (#2329213) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Amos A Lesviot is a resident of the island of Lesvos, also spelled Lesbos, where the love of women by women first became a large-scale flap (in Western history, anyway) because it was the birthplace of the poet Sappho, who felt strong emotions for the women she wrote poems about. All of whom, like Sappho, are now dead The island is called Mytilene as well, from its Turkish name. It lies near the Turkish border. As far as I know, all wieners found there are imported, but that could be wrong. A |
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29 Apr 08 - 07:44 PM (#2329218) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Bob Bolton Hmmmm... I seem to remember hearing that, in the early period of Australia's spell as a migration target for various 'Greek' cultural groups displaced by the World Wars, the 'Greek' population of Melbourne (state of Victoria) grew to a point where the various regional and island populations started to form their own regional cultural groups. An application was made to the Melbourne City bureaucracy to register the society name: (~) "The Lesbian Association". This was referred to other authorities ... and a bunch of Victorian Police 'raided' the "offending" premises. They were very puzzled to be met by a bunch of rather hirsute Mediterranean blokes! Regard(les)s, Bob |
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29 Apr 08 - 07:46 PM (#2329221) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: McGrath of Harlow I appreciated that - I was just curious to know if Greek-speaking lesbians refer to each other as "lesviots" (assuming they don't actually come from Lesvos). I suppose it could cause misunderstanding, if they do. That couldn't arise with the English word "Lesbian", since that isn't the Greek word for a resident of Lesbos, and never has been. |
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29 Apr 08 - 07:56 PM (#2329227) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Gurney Those 'wimmin' are corrupting the English laguage in all sorts of ways. On several occasions I have received the appellation 'Male Chauvinist Pig.' This I do object to. As far as I have been able to discover, I have no French blood. 'Male Jingoist Pig' would be OK. They just look blank when you point it out. Ill-read 'persons.' Even Wordweb hasn't differentiated between nationalities. |
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29 Apr 08 - 08:01 PM (#2329232) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: McGrath of Harlow I see from Google maps that there are no less than seven places in the USA called "Soddom". (No Gomorrahs it appears.) |
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29 Apr 08 - 08:10 PM (#2329241) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Jack Campin Mytilene/Mytilini is an ancient Greek name for a district and city in Lesbos. It isn't of Turkish origin. This looks interesting: https://turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=97784 I haven't been to Lesbos but Ayvalik is a lovely place. At a guess, Lesviots willing to coordinate with Turks to create an arts festival are not the sort of people who would get steamed up about lesbians. It takes remarkably few bigots to make a whole community look stupid. |
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30 Apr 08 - 03:21 AM (#2329437) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Paul Burke Who sang that song of which the chorus ran something like: SODOM the Society Of Dirty Old Men, Bringing Sodom to Earthe again, S-O-D-O-M, SODOM the Society Of Dirty Old Men. |
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30 Apr 08 - 04:10 AM (#2329463) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Backwoodsman Wieners, Hamburgers, Berliners - all crap when compared to a fine, proper Lincolnshire Sausage (or even a genuine Melton Mowbray Pork Pie)! The true Ambrosia! :-) |
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30 Apr 08 - 07:56 AM (#2329615) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Grab The biggest irony is that history doesn't actually record whether the poet Sappho was male or female. |
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30 Apr 08 - 10:20 AM (#2329751) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Backwoodsman A few Lincolnshire Sausages and Melton Mobray Pork Pies woulda made a man of It. :-) |
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30 Apr 08 - 10:25 AM (#2329757) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: McGrath of Harlow Or perhaps a few faggots with onion gravy. |
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30 Apr 08 - 10:38 AM (#2329772) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Amos It seems clear in this article that she was female. A |
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30 Apr 08 - 11:29 AM (#2329820) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: katlaughing That's Uppity Wimmin to you, Gurney! **BG** Sappho Rules! |
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30 Apr 08 - 12:36 PM (#2329865) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Backwoodsman "Or perhaps a few faggots with onion gravy." Aaaaaahhh Yuss! (As Churchill the Bulldog would say!). That's my kinda vittles, McG! :-) :-) |
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30 Apr 08 - 12:49 PM (#2329877) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: PoppaGator In my experience in the US, frankfurters/weiners/hot dogs may be all beef, beef and pork, or beef, pork and turkey, always with a circular cross section and all within the same size range ~ just shorter than a hot dog bun ;^) While technically pre-cooked, they are normally steamed or grilled (or both) before serving. Vienna Sausages, on the other hand, are musch smaller and generally available only in little cans, and normally eaten cold, without further cooking, and usually straight out of the container. Not exactly gourmet fare! |
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30 Apr 08 - 02:28 PM (#2329981) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Ernest Joe, the inhabitants of Berlin call inhabitants of Berlin "Berliner". The jelly doughnuts that are known as "Berliner" in other parts of Germany (alternatively Kräppel, Kreppel, Krapfen etc.) are called "Pfannkuchen" in Berlin. No one except Albrecht der Bär or Knut has been called Bär to my knowledge. "Ossis" is nowadays used for people from former East Germany including East Berlin (as opposed to "Wessis" for West Germans/Berliners). Before the reunification the people from East Frisia (Ostfriesland) had been known as the Ossis (and ridiculed like the Kerrymen in Ireland or the Newfies in Canada). And Don, "Hamburgers" should contain only beef while "Frikadellen" ("Bulletten" in Berlin)also contain old buns (and eggs). Sometimes the baker seems to have a bigger share than the butcher.... ;0) Ernest |
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01 May 08 - 11:02 AM (#2330624) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: GUEST,leeneia 'It takes remarkably few bigots to make a whole community look stupid.' Well said, Jack! I suppose it's because the bigots, being colorful, get all the media attention. |
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01 May 08 - 03:14 PM (#2330837) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: George Papavgeris Just to clarify: In Greek, those who hail from Mytilini/Lesbos (both names are used for the island name, with a preference for the former) are invariably referred to as Mytilinios (Mytilinia for fem.). The word Lesbios (Lesbia for fem.) also exists, but tends to be used only jokingly for the obvious connotations. The term "lesbian" in Greek is "lesbia", i.e. the feminine of the above forms. So, the Greeks themselves are NOT using the Lesbos-originated adjective, except in jest. Even in Greek, the word "lesbian" today means no more than a homosexual female. I can't for the life of me therefore understand why suddenly they got so hot under the collar for the world using a word that they THEMSELVES use to mean the same thing. Sorry, but after all the talk of frankfurters etc above, I felt I had to make an effort to retrieve the discussion. In a sense, to try and hide the sausage. As it were. Allegedly. |
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01 May 08 - 03:25 PM (#2330844) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: McGrath of Harlow That's rather what I suspected. If it had been a matter of the same word being used in both contexts, I don't think that need have implied any particular intolerance on their part, just a not unreasonable irritation at getting the same old double-entendre jokes time after time. |
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01 May 08 - 05:44 PM (#2330972) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Gurney Hey, Kat, I'm not against wimmin being uppity. Mine is! I'm against language corruption and specifically the inability to distinguish between French patriots and English ones, by jingo. Haven't met many lesbians, but I had one working for me once. Tiresome creature, always trying to take offence so that she could make some sort of point, and wring some sort of apology. I was glad to be rid of her when she went. |
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01 May 08 - 06:09 PM (#2330992) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Gurney Referring to the above: Always supposing that I've absorbed the nuances of the americanism 'uppity' correctly. |
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02 May 08 - 01:46 PM (#2331344) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Amos Uppity is a terrific word if you are a member of a dominating class trying to maintain the suppression of a dominated group. It marks the trouble-makers. A |
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02 May 08 - 05:53 PM (#2331543) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Gurney Amos, I wish to state firmly -and quickly- that Her Indoors is in no way uppity, then. Before she reads your posted definition. Oops. |
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02 May 08 - 06:43 PM (#2331581) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: katlaughing Ah, except that "uppity" has been co-opted by those so-called troublemakers and have made it a badge of honour to call oneself such, so no harm, imo!**bg** katuppitytuppity! |
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02 May 08 - 07:58 PM (#2331640) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: Ebbie Wolfgang, your Bockwurst link takes me to a flashing URL. |
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03 May 08 - 12:13 PM (#2332022) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: robomatic There's a famous video recording of JFK giving his "Ich bin ein Berliner" line. One could tell by the reaction of the Germans that the line was given and received as he intended. I never bought into the urban legend which came out about the line sometime later. WWII and The Cold War were nothing to laugh about and Kennedy established that there was an American German relationship all its own. And when I was over there, seeing the immense variety of meat pressed into casings showed me there was an entire world of colors, sizes,tastes textures and shapes, not surprisingly there is a language to match. This applied not only to sausages but also to breads. I felt Americn supermarkets were put to shame by the immense varieties of GOOD bread available. Oh, the subject of the thread? Lesviots? Good luck to 'em. Years ago during a local American election the cynical incumbent won re-election by referring to his opponent as a "well known thespian." |
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03 May 08 - 01:59 PM (#2332104) Subject: RE: BS: Lesviots against Lesbians From: McGrath of Harlow WWII and The Cold War were nothing to laugh about Of course they were. You have to be able to laugh at bad times to get through them. You might as well say that life itself is nothing to laugh about. |
