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07 May 08 - 08:42 AM (#2334797) Subject: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando From: Skipper Jack Can anyone help me? I need the Welsh words of "Hob Y Derri Dando" I do believe that there is more than one version of this song, so if it is not too much trouble, perhaps you could supply the two versions? Thanks in anticipation, Dave R. |
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07 May 08 - 08:59 AM (#2334813) Subject: ADD Version: Hob Y Derri Dando (Welsh) From: GUEST Hob Y Derri Dando 1. Ni bu ferch erioed cyn laned Hob y deri dando, Ni bu ferch erioed cyn wyned Dyna ganu eto; Ni bu neb o ferched dynion Siân fwyn Siân Nes na hon i dori 'nghalon Cytgan: Siân fwyn tyrd i'r llwyn, Seiniwn glod i Siani fach fwyn: Sian fwyn tyrd i'r llwyn, Seiniwn glod i Siani fach fwyn 2. Gwyn eu byd yr adar gwylltion Hob y deri dando; Hwy gânt fynd i'r fynnon Dyna ganu eto; Weithiau i'r môr a weithiau i'r mynydd, Siân fwyn Siân, A dod adref yn ddigerydd Cytgan: 3. Tros y môr y mae fy nghalon Hob y deri dando; Tros y môr y mae fochneidion, Dyna ganu eto: Dros y môr y mae fanwylyd Siân fwyn Siân Sy'n fy meddwl i bob munud -or- 1. Wyt ti'n hoffi dyri, Derwydd? Hob y deri dando, Unwaith oerais i o'th herwydd, Dyna ganu eto; Ym mhob ardal y mae brydôn, Canig hen y co', Pwy na allant ddweud penillion hen gân co', Canig hen y co' Hob y deri dan y to. 2. Buom unwaith yn gariadon, Hob y deri dando, Ti a geisiasist dorri 'nghalon, Dyna ganu eto; Am funudyn pwy fu'n Hidio druan am dy dro? Deri dando, wyt ti'n gwrando hen gân co'? Canig hen y co', Hob y deri dan y to. 1. Never was there maiden sweeter, Hopb y deri dano More alluring, livelier, neater Hob y deri dando Nor one to my fancy nearer Jane, sweet Jane There is no one I love dearer Chorus: Jane, run down the lane, There in the grove we'll kiss again Jane, run down the lane, There in the grove we'll kiss again 2. Blessed are the wild birds flying Hob y deri dano; They're full free, there's no denying, Hob y deri dano; Free to linger or to hasten, Jane, sweet Jane; And come home with none to chasten; Chorus: 3. Now, o'er seas, my heart is crying, Hob y deri dando; O'er the seas, O hear me sighing, Hob y deri dando; O'er the seas my soul comes winging, Jane, sweet Jane; Where your golden voice is ringing, Chorus: Jane, sing in the the lane, There in the grove we'll kiss again Jane, sing in the lane, There in the grove we'll kiss again -or- 1. Low ye hills in ocean lie Hob y derri dando Hide not Meirion from my eye Hob y derri dando Still one view oh let me take Down derri down Ere my longing heart doth break Chorus: Down down hie derri down My darling Mary do not frown Down down hie derri down My darling Mary do not frown. 2. O'er the seas hath flown my heart Hob y derri dando O'er the seas my sighs depart Hob y derri dando And o'er the seas must she be sought Down derri down Who lives yet always in my thought Chorus: 3. 'Neath the seas shall I reside Hob y derri dando 'Neath the water and the tide Hob y derri dando For my longing heart did break Down derri down When she another love did take Chorus: |
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07 May 08 - 09:14 AM (#2334834) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando From: Snuffy Lots of versions in English and Welsh in this thread Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando and lots of history on its various metamorphoses from a rural love song to a shanty to Cosher Bailey. |
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08 May 08 - 01:45 PM (#2335900) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: Skipper Jack Thanks Guys, Believe it or not, Armstrong's Patent (Appingedam, Holland) would like to learn how to sing the song in Welsh. The only trouble is they would like the phonetic pronounciation of the words. So would I!! The Dutch group is coming to The "Sea Swansea" Festival in July and I presume that they would like to feature "Hob Y Derri Dando" in their repertoire. Thanks again, Dave R. |
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05 Mar 09 - 07:13 PM (#2582186) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: Phil Edwards Does anyone know how to make Hwy gânt fynd i'r fynnon scan over the nine-syllable metre of the third line of the tune (as in, "She drinks rum and she chews tobacco")? Even if you stretch "Hwy" into two syllables you're a couple short. "Hw-y ga-a-ant fynd i'r fynnon"? |
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07 Mar 09 - 09:48 PM (#2583641) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: Jim Dixon Musical notation for HOB Y DERRI DANDO can be found, oddly enough, in this French text: Études historiques sur la poésie et la musique dans la Cambrie by Ernest David (Paris: Imprimerie nationale, 1884). (The song lyrics are in Welsh; commentary is in French.) |
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08 Mar 09 - 06:45 AM (#2583748) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: Snuffy Unfortunately, Google Books will only allow US readers to see it. |
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09 Mar 09 - 06:08 AM (#2584469) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: sian, west wales Guest 07-05-08 left a bit out: it should read, "Hwy ga^nt fynd i'r fan a fynnon". "i'r" is sung over two notes. sian |
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09 Mar 09 - 09:02 AM (#2584580) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: GUEST,Working Radish Diolch yn fawr iawn! I *thought* that line looked short. The other line that puzzles me is Weithiau i'r môr a weithiau i'r mynydd, which seems to have too many syllables! Do you sound the "i'r"s separately, or do they merge into the "weithiau"s? |
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09 Mar 09 - 09:10 AM (#2584586) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: sian, west wales Merge. weith/iau i'r / mor / a / weith / iau i'r/ myn/ydd. weith / yire / more / a / weith / yire / muhn / ith. ('th' as in 'the') I'm not good at this phonetic stuff! And I just realized you said something about 9 syllables. You mean 8, right? sian |
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09 Mar 09 - 09:23 AM (#2584595) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: GUEST,Working Radish Don't worry about the phonetics - I can't speak Welsh worth a damn but I can read it (slowly). That's eight syllables over nine notes ('a' over two notes in this case), isn't it? "Ni bu ferch erioed cyn laned" is the same line, with nine syllables over nine notes. Incidentally, "tyrd" had me foxed to begin with - what little Welsh I know is South Walian, and I never heard anyone say "tyrd". I assume that's the 'uh' kind of 'y', not the 'ee' kind - is that right? |
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09 Mar 09 - 10:59 AM (#2584663) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: sian, west wales Oh - I get what you mean about 9 now. Actually, passing notes aren't all that common in Welsh song; 2 occasionally, but proper melissmas are rare. Yeh, tyrd is North Walian. No, it's pronounced with the 'ee' and a rolled 'r' ... although in my Dad's part of N Wales it came out more or less like "tid". "Ty'd 'ma" would be used to tell a child to 'come here'. Much better than 'turd' I would think. Or, try singing it as tird. When I say 'rolled r' I really mean more of a fluttered 'r' - it's more at the front of the mouth than back in the throat, as the French might do. sian |
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09 Mar 09 - 11:58 AM (#2584714) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: Phil Edwards Thanks, Sian. One other question - what's this fochneidion that he's missing in the third verse? I thought it might be a compound word starting with 'boch', but I couldn't work out what the second half could be. |
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09 Mar 09 - 02:40 PM (#2584852) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: sian, west wales Oh - that should be f'ochneidion (contraction: fy=my, ochneidio=sighs). "My sighs" or "My groans". Similarly, it should be f'anwylyd. He's heartsick. He'll get over it. They usually do ... sian |
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10 Mar 09 - 06:12 AM (#2585397) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: sian, west wales oops. finger slip. that should be 'ochneidion' in the bracketted bit. sian |
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10 Mar 09 - 07:45 AM (#2585455) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: Phil Edwards I worked out fanwylwyd, but I didn't even think of looking up 'ochneid'. We live and learn! "Nes na hon i dori 'nghalon" - is that "[none] closer than her to the heart's care"? Is there an 'yng' or something missing before 'nghalon'? (I never quite got to the bottom of what mutates when - words being with 'f' are the worst, I never know whether to look under 'b', 'm' or 'ff'.) Final question (probably), from the category of stuff I used to know - are the Ys in 'dynion' and 'wyned' pronounced the same way as in 'dyn' and 'gwyn', or do they change to the 'uh' sound because of where they are in the word? |
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10 Mar 09 - 09:43 AM (#2585547) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: Nigel Parsons Pip: Copied from an earlier thread: Mutations of initial letters are common in Welsh, as in most languages. It's just that in Welsh they have been structured. Just think of the English practice of dropping initial aitches, and ignoring certain mid word letters. Government is often Govermunt. Double You (W) is often Dubber you. Welsh has 3 types of mutation, Soft, nasal, and aspirate. Soft is the most common as it affects 9 (welsh) letters.C,P,T,G,B,D,Ll,M,Rh. Nasal affects 6. C,P,T,G,B,D. Aspirate affects 3. C,P,T. Just to give the soft mutations, C-> G Cymru-> i Gymru (Wales -. to Wales) P-> B Porth -> i Borth (to Porth) T-> D Tonyrefail -> i Donyrefail (To Tonyrefail) G-> _ Gwaelod-y-Garth -> i Waelod-Y-Garth (To Gwaelod) B-> F Bala -> i Fala (to Bala) the single F in Welsh is pronounced as an English V D-> Dd Dolgellau -> i Ddolgellau (to Dolgellau) The Dd is a single letter sounded as in The or With Ll->L Llandaff -> i Landaff (to Llandaff) The Ll is a single letter which causes tremendous problems for the English (but not Dutch or Germans) it is pronounced by pressing the tongue against the roof of the mouth, blowing out below the tongue, and then bringing the tongue down. M-> F Meirionydd-> i Feirionydd (mutated words starting with an F can be difficult to find in dictionaries, as the original word can start with either B or M!) Rh-> r Rhyader -> i Ryader (to Rhyader) |
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10 Mar 09 - 10:30 AM (#2585595) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: GUEST,Working Radish Nigel - I know all of that, I just don't know when to use which one! I do remember learning that adjectives with feminine nouns take the soft mutation - then I learned that the most famous son of Carmarthenshire was Hywel Dda... Aargh! I did once see (in my school's unofficial school magazine of all places) a rather rude poem which included the word 'coc' in all its possible forms (i.e. coc, goc, nghoc and choc). I should probably have memorised it. PS No such place as Rhyader - it's Rhayader in English and Rhaeadr in Welsh. |
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10 Mar 09 - 10:31 AM (#2585596) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: sian, west wales "Nes na hon i dori 'nghalon" - (carries on from 2 lines up) ... closer than she to breaking my heart. In normal grammar there would be the word "fy" (my) before nghalon, as indicated (in a way) by the ('). As it's a dropped word, rather than a dropped letter, I wonder why we do that ... but we do. If it helps, looking up words will always be every Learner's Waterloo (including my own). "Dynion" is "DUH nyon" in most places athough some areas you would hear "DI nyon" (short 'i' as in ... ummm ... well: "in") "Wyned" is "WUH ned". It isn't about where they are in the word; it's about 'y' being one of the few bits of Welsh phonetics that fool around, thus making Welsh only 99% phonetic. Bummer, isn't it? I guess it's only natural that the Nonconformist Church took such a hold on Wales; it's in the genes ... sian |
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10 Mar 09 - 12:48 PM (#2585700) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: GUEST,Working Radish Ah, but - if you look at it, 'y' has the short 'i' pronunciation if it's in the last syllable of a word (or the only syllable - 'ffyrdd', 'byd'), and it's 'uh' in all other places. That's why you get words like 'bywyd' and 'Dyffryn' where the two 'y's are pronounced differently. There are only two major exceptions to this general rule, 'y'/'yr' and 'yn' - it's just a shame they're two of the commonest words in the language. |
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10 Mar 09 - 03:32 PM (#2585843) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: sian, west wales Ergh. Not really that simple, unfortunately, but I'm probably not enough of a language-bod to be able to explain. In part, it isn't really 'uh' like, say, the Americans would say 'uh'. But close. And then there's the regionalisms and such. Sing 'uh' and 'i' and you'll be OK for the most part. Try to avoid working out the intricacies based on the basics; you'll give yerself a twitch. sian |
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10 Mar 09 - 03:58 PM (#2585861) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: Phil Edwards it isn't really 'uh' like, say, the Americans would say 'uh' Oh, I know - I mean, I do know what the language sounds like. I lived in Wales for five years as a kid and learned Welsh for most of that time; when I went back to south London & people asked me to say something in Welsh, I used to say "dydw i ddim yn siarad Cymraeg", ho ho. |
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10 Mar 09 - 04:39 PM (#2585876) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: sian, west wales Oh - and "rydw i'n hoffi coffi" and "mae Radio Times ar y teledu"? Yep - the Classics will always stand you in good stead. sian |
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10 Mar 09 - 05:14 PM (#2585895) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: Phil Edwards "Stopiwch y bws!" was my favourite. (I do like the fact that the plural of 'bws' is 'bysiau' - covers both pronunciations of the tricky English 'u'!) I'd only done a couple of years of secondary school Welsh when my family went back to England - as far as our textbook was concerned, verbs in Welsh didn't have different endings, just rydw i'n mynd/rydych chi'n mynd/mae e'n mynd... (Or rydw i wedi mynd for the past tense.) Which made reading anything written in grammatical Welsh (hymns, the national anthem, the listings for BBC Wales) a bit of a challenge. |
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11 Mar 09 - 01:47 PM (#2586489) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: GUEST,BanjoRay Can anyone produce a real English translation of the Welsh words? The one given by guest at the start of this thread scans OK but doesn't seem to bear any relationship to the actual meaning. Cheers Ray |
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11 Mar 09 - 02:11 PM (#2586502) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: sian, west wales Ni bu ferch erioed cyn laned (Never before was a girl so pure) Hob y deri dando, Ni bu ferch erioed cyn wyned (Never before was a girl so fair) Dyna ganu eto; Ni bu neb o ferched dynion (Never was any one of the daughters of men) Siân fwyn Siân (Gentle Sian, Sian) Nes na hon i dori 'nghalon (Closer than she to breaking my heart) Cytgan: Chorus Siân fwyn tyrd i'r llwyn, (Gentle Sian, come into the shrubbery) Seiniwn glod i Siani fach fwyn: (I'll sing the praises of gentle little Sian) Sian fwyn tyrd i'r llwyn, Seiniwn glod i Siani fach fwyn 2. Gwyn eu byd yr adar gwylltion (Blessed are the wild birds) Hob y deri dando; Hwy gânt fynd i'r fan a fynnon (they can go wherever they wish) Dyna ganu eto; (Here we sing again) Weithiau i'r môr a weithiau i'r mynydd, (Sometimes to the sea and sometimes to the mountain) Siân fwyn Siân, (Gentle Sian, Sian) A dod adref yn ddigerydd (And return home unharmed) Cytgan: 3. Tros y môr y mae fy nghalon (Over the sea is my heart) Hob y deri dando; Tros y môr y mae f'ochneidion, (Over the sea are my sighs) Dyna ganu eto: (Here we sing again) Dros y môr y mae f'anwylyd (over the sea is my dear one) Siân fwyn Siân (Gentle Sian, Sian) Sy'n fy meddwl i bob munud (Who is in my thoughts every minute) That's the gist, anyway. sian -or- 1. Wyt ti'n hoffi dyri, Derwydd? Hob y deri dando, Unwaith oerais i o'th herwydd, Dyna ganu eto; Ym mhob ardal y mae brydôn, Canig hen y co', Pwy na allant ddweud penillion hen gân co', Canig hen y co' Hob y deri dan y to. 2. Buom unwaith yn gariadon, Hob y deri dando, Ti a geisiasist dorri 'nghalon, Dyna ganu eto; Am funudyn pwy fu'n Hidio druan am dy dro? Deri dando, wyt ti'n gwrando hen gân co'? Canig hen y co', Hob y deri dan y to. |
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11 Mar 09 - 03:30 PM (#2586570) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: Phil Edwards Thanks again, Sian. "Come into the shrubbery" seems a bit direct! I'd always thought of it as "come to the grove" (or even "glen"). Is "i'r fan a fynnon" a proverbial phrase? And does "hob y deri dando" really mean "the pig under the oak tree"? |
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12 Mar 09 - 12:58 PM (#2587263) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: GUEST,BanjoRay Thanks, Sian. I'd have thought that "i'r fan a fynnon" would mean "to the hill and the spring" Ray |
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12 Mar 09 - 01:22 PM (#2587282) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: sian, west wales nope, Banj. Not sure what you might be thinking of for 'fan' (unless you're thinking of the mountain of that name) but you've got "ffynnon" in mind ('well' or 'spring') for the other, when it's actually a form of the verb 'mynnu' - 'to will', 'to insist'. Pip, if your sensibilities, like the 19th & 20th century translators, lead you in the direction of the 'grove', rock on. It's a perfectly acceptable translation. 'Llwyn' can be translated either as 'grove' or 'shrubbery'. I just thought 'Catters might like 'shrubbery' better ... (and what did you think they might be doing in said 'grove', hmmmmm??) No, "i'r fan a fynnon" isn't particulary a colloquialism as far as I know. And, yeh, I think on some other thread we got into the pig under the oak tree (or in the oak grove, or such) although I doubt if there are more than a few dozen people in Wales today who would know that. Early print versions have "Danno" instead of "Dando", and "o dano" means 'underneath'. |
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12 Mar 09 - 03:04 PM (#2587356) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: Phil Edwards "i'r fan a fynnon" isn't particulary a colloquialism as far as I know I asked because I'd made the same assumption as Banjiman - that the underlying words were ban ('peak', apparently) and ffynnon. 'Man' and a form of 'mynnu' make more sense. |
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12 Mar 09 - 03:20 PM (#2587370) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: sian, west wales Oh, right; I see where you're coming from. 'Ban' (beacon). Didn't think of that. But it's masculine so wouldn't have mutated; still, that's sort of a fine point. sian |
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12 Mar 09 - 04:32 PM (#2587425) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: Phil Edwards H'mph - my Geiriadur Mawr says quite clearly that 'ban' is 'egb', an enw both masculine and feminine. But the 'beacon' sense must be one of the masculine ones - now I think of it you don't hear of the Fannau Frycheiniog... I'm starting to suspect that you have to be born Welsh to speak the language properly! |
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12 Mar 09 - 04:51 PM (#2587444) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: sian, west wales Ah, didn't think of looking in GM. I just use Cysgeir these days ... but I should be more thorough. Some nouns are 'officially' one gender but dialectically swing another way. It's late-ish so I won't try to get clever with that thought. It's very rarely a deal-breaker, although in spoken Welsh the word for 'man' and 'ass' (as in your bum) can sound alike and the wrong mutations can make for some misunderstanding ... There are lots of 'wrong' mutations and gender assignment in Welsh folk songs, particularly if you look at original manuscripts. Life is too short to a) get your knickers too twisted about this and b) dust. (Actually, Bannau Brycheiniog wouldn't mutate cuz theyz plural and plurals don't mutate after 'the' - although they do mutuate after, possesive articles. Again, lose no sleep over this.) sian |
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12 Mar 09 - 05:01 PM (#2587453) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: BanjoRay What about Pen Y Fan? (My vocabulary and Welsh Grammar are those of a 5 year old!) Ray |
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13 Mar 09 - 06:20 AM (#2587850) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Hob Y Derri Dando - Welsh Words From: sian, west wales Yeh, well you're correct that it's in GM as 'peak'. I've looked it up in the fairly recent, and very very heavy, Welsh Academy English-Welsh Dictionary and it doesn't give 'ban' for 'peak' at all; and neither does the e-dictionary Cysgeir. No idea why. I know the guy who led the team on the really really really big, volumes and volumes of words dictionary so if I see him soon I'll ask. I like GM, though I don't use it much any more. Always good for a giggle; defines a celibate as 'one who is unmarried'. Ah - a book of its times! sian |