|
26 May 08 - 08:50 PM (#2349715) Subject: Best Folk Song writer ever From: olddude Ok to start a small discussion, if you had to pick the single greatest folk song writer who ever lived, known or unknow what is the first one to come to mind. Stephen Foster perhaps? Dylan? Who |
|
26 May 08 - 09:00 PM (#2349721) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Joe_F Anon. |
|
26 May 08 - 09:07 PM (#2349724) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: John on the Sunset Coast olddude-I'm not sure Foster thought on his songs as folk songs, it just so happened that way. Anon fits the bill perfectly. My vote goes to Irving Burge who wrote many of the calypsos made famous by Harry Belefonte. |
|
26 May 08 - 09:17 PM (#2349731) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Dan Schatz I'm with Joe. The best songs are the ones that last not because of who wrote them, but because they are good songs - and the old traditional songs have stood the test of hundred of years. Yes, there are lots of good folks writing good songs today - I enjoy singing them. But I think the best of them are those who have deep roots in folk culture and tradition. Dan |
|
26 May 08 - 09:21 PM (#2349736) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: kendall I don't mean to plow up a snake here, but seems to me that folk songs are not written. They are handed down through the oral tradition from generation to generation. One of the oldest songs is The Fox. That one goes back to the 12th century, and no one knows who made it originally. Now, if you want to talk songs written in the folk genre' by singer songwriters, I'd go for,Pete Seeger, Utah Phillips, Tom Paxton, Gordon Bok and Eric Bogle. |
|
26 May 08 - 09:45 PM (#2349744) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: olddude bogle, Seeger, good choices so is burge. I agree the best are handed down from generation to generation. How many versions of "granfathers waltz are there, hundreds or thousands because, they were granfathers waltz ... but we tend to tribute the music to an author maybe not the correct one but someone made it famous or brought it to the eye of the folk world, so I put them in that category whoever the they are. How about woody guthrie |
|
26 May 08 - 09:49 PM (#2349745) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Banjovey McColl |
|
26 May 08 - 09:53 PM (#2349747) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Richard Bridge 1954 |
|
26 May 08 - 10:29 PM (#2349764) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Little Hawk I think the best songwriter of the last 50 years is Bob Dylan...if I have to pick someone. That doesn't mean I think he's the best "Folk Song" writer, because that label doesn't really fit him. He went beyond that. He's just the best songwriter, period. |
|
26 May 08 - 10:42 PM (#2349770) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: GUEST,.gargoyle Your thread is PURE
As Kendal has noted:
ANONYMOUS!!!
This person is not only the BEST but also the most prolific.
Sincerely,
Joe - we now have "above" and "below"....how about another "exclusive" section for those with MC roots to the 90's...the newbie-diaper-stench is distressing to the nerves. |
|
26 May 08 - 11:01 PM (#2349772) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Sandy Mc Lean Subjective as this thread is my vote would be for Stan Rogers. |
|
26 May 08 - 11:02 PM (#2349773) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: the button Not just any old "anon." The anonymous hacks who turned out broadsides in the 19th century (often acting as unwitting collectors of traditional songs), giving us 95% of the folksongs we have today. Then the other anons got hold of them, stripped away some of the flowery verbiage, and added some truly beautiful melodies. |
|
26 May 08 - 11:07 PM (#2349777) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: GUEST,iancarterb Gargoyle has the answer right, and there's only one right academic answer to the explicit question. If you know who wrote it, it probably hasn't passed into oral tradition yet, and likely hasn't wandered through variants in 8 languages by people who nver heard the radio. Such songs can't be common in English any more. My preferred variant on the implicit question is 'the best writer of songs that SOUND like folk songs,' and I have never heard anyone better at that than Stan Rogers. Gillian Welch is the best still living and writing in English that I'm familiar with. |
|
26 May 08 - 11:11 PM (#2349778) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: topical tom I agree totally with kendall's list though I personally would not have chosen Gordon Bok. |
|
27 May 08 - 12:49 AM (#2349817) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: CupOfTea If yer looking for a "folk song writer" perhaps a way of parsing it out is: who is the known author who has the most songs that other folks have thought was "Trad?" Works of Robert Burns, Si Kahn, Pete Seeger, some of the Scottish and Irish writers in a traditional vein have had that misattribution. In some cases when newer songs (especially from the other side of the Atlantic) are performed by singers who also do a good line in the very old songs, that the "trad" gets assumed by listeners not aware of the actual author. I particularly got a kick out of being earnestly told that "The Scotsman" was a very traditional song, and couldn't possibly have been written by an American bluegrass guy... Songwriters who have multiple works written in my lifetime that I believe will live on "in the tradition:" Woody Guthrie Pete Seeger Eric Bogle Gordon Bok Phil Ochs Sidney Carter Tom Paxton Andy M. Stewart Tommy Sands |
|
27 May 08 - 02:27 AM (#2349850) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Dave Hanson Not ANON but TRAD. eric |
|
27 May 08 - 02:35 AM (#2349853) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: mark gregory Anonymous or anon or trad should be replaced with "author not known" or perhaps "author(s) not yet known" mark |
|
27 May 08 - 04:22 AM (#2349898) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: fat B****rd Maybe not the best but I believe the most profitable to be Trad. Arr BY.... |
|
27 May 08 - 05:15 AM (#2349924) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Dave Hanson Mark Gregory, why ? eric |
|
27 May 08 - 05:16 AM (#2349925) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Jim Carroll IMO Guest iancarterb has it about right, at least as far as the UK is concerned. The singing tradition among both the Irish Travelling and settled communities lasted somewhat longer here, allowing written material to be taken up and adapted, but sadly, even that appears to have disappeared now. This doesn't mean that new songs can't be written using traditional styles - but that's a different thing altogether. Jim Carroll |
|
27 May 08 - 05:24 AM (#2349937) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: GUEST,Shimrod It's remarkably persistent this idea that, in order for a song to be classified as a folk song, its author must be anonymous, isn't it? Many folk songs are anonymous purely because we have no record of the author's name - it's as simple as that! Nevertheless, someone must have written them. They didn't just spring, fully formed, from the earth! The fact is that any song, whether it has a known author or not, can become a folk song as long as it has undergone the 'folk process' which has been discussed exhaustively in previous threads. |
|
27 May 08 - 05:48 AM (#2349950) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Bryn Pugh "She moved through the fair" written by Padraig Colum, is in the oral tradition. |
|
27 May 08 - 05:57 AM (#2349953) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Georgiansilver Guest Shimrod....it was not necessary for people to write down songs back in the days when the men harvested the fields manually and grafted on ships of the line. At the end of a week of harvesting the land...the farmer would supply copious amounts of liquor or ale and every man, to a man, was 'expected' to sing..whether or not he had a voice for it. Most of these men were illiterate but could make up their own songs...as did the men on board ships. So a tradition of Folk music came about with many anonymous 'inventors' rather than writers of songs. Over many ensuing decades, certain people have collected these songs and many have been put to paper...so as you say, they did not spring fully formed from the earth...but from the many illiterate men who worked the earth and sailed the seas. Best wishes, Mike. |
|
27 May 08 - 06:12 AM (#2349962) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Jack Campin Step a bit outside the British Isles and things can look very different. There are maybe 200 songs by Pir Sultan Abdal that have survived in mainly-oral tradition for 400 years. Pir Sultan was something like a Turkish William Blake, and was hanged by a feudal lord for leading an insurrection in the time of Suleyman the Magnificent, so the Joe Hill factor kept him in popular memory as well as the quality of his songs. |
|
27 May 08 - 06:37 AM (#2349975) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Big Al Whittle 'but from the many illiterate men who worked the earth and sailed the seas.' They may not have been illiterate. They just didn't live at a time where people registered themselves owners of intellectual property. To write something like say The Cutty Wren or Sir Patrick Spens argues considerable intellligence and education. Certainly a command of and familiarity with creative processes. This stuff didn't just spring from the dull earth. Their work may simply not have have had a discernabble value to people who account themselves arbiters of what is an important folksong. You can see the same sort of process at work even to this day. They might be anon or trad, but only because some gang of self important arseholes whose job it was to chronicle the times couldn't see the value. |
|
27 May 08 - 07:06 AM (#2349984) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: GUEST,Tom Bliss Georgiansilver - I agree with what you say, and songs made that way are of course a key element of the tradition, but I understand that some music historians are now suggesting that those 'mouth-made' songs have tended not to survive as intact, or to have travelled as far, as the ones which were actually written down. I've hear people say that there's a growing school of thought that perhaps the bulk of the 'classic' trad repertoire was actually composed by a comparatively small number of skilled makers, who did in fact write them down, thus making transmission more likely - and as has been said above this definitely applies to the broadside writers. I've no idea if this applies pre-broadside, and it could be that the pond has been muddied by the activities of very early collectors (the broadside idea didn't spring from nowhere after all), but someone suggested there might have been a few musical equivalents of Shakespeare, who hoovered up stories and perhaps other writers' works, and made good songs from them which were then robust enough to remain recognisable even after much erosion and reconstruction through the centuries. I personally believe that the elements of song which render it liable to survive are the images it conjures up, and the emotions it triggers - and that applies to story songs, work/community songs and relationship songs. A good tune may survive because its a good tune, and a good story may survive because it's a good story, and some good lyrics survive because they're strong or useful (hence floating verses) but a good song - as a song - survives because it 'goes in.' People tend to want to sing it the way they heard it, so the erosion is slower than if they'd felt it needed improving. While the folk process does periodically give words or tune a make-over, you can usually tell by comparing radically different versions of a great song that there was a skilled mind at work in the initial conception and construction, which time has not been able completely to obscure. There's nothing to say that that skilled mind was literate or educated in any way, but it would be reasonable to suggest that it was practised, and took the process of song writing seriously. It's certainly true that we do know the authors of a lot of songs now called Trad, and people are finding more all the time. Known authorship does not exclude a song from the oral trad repertoire (pre recording), and nor from the recorded trad repertoire (post recording). The more authors we can identify (along with key make-overers too) the better, in my opinion. This is not to take anything away from song carriers and sources, but how handy would it be if we knew who first made the Musgrave/Groves story into a song, and what he or she actually composed? We'd then be able to interpolate all sorts of things from the various versions. Tom |
|
27 May 08 - 07:07 AM (#2349986) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: GUEST,Tom Bliss And what Al said, too |
|
27 May 08 - 07:25 AM (#2349992) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Big Al Whittle yes indeed contrast this with the craftsmen who built the great cathedrals - sometimes we know their names and even how much they got paid. right up the start of the 17th century - we cannot be sure how much of Shakespeares plays are written by the man himself. Small wonder we have no record of the great ballad writers - the great performers who must surely have edited them. However their genius is luminous -in the hands of a skilled performer. That brings us neatly back to brian peters new album! well done mate! |
|
27 May 08 - 07:43 AM (#2350008) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: the button This is kind of relevant, if any of you haven't seen it before. Articles on the passage of songs from print into the tradition. Interesting stuff. http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/dungheap.htm |
|
27 May 08 - 08:30 AM (#2350030) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: GUEST,Tom Bliss From Button's excellent link: "the two traditions should not be considered as entirely separate" An important if topical (here, at least) statement. So, was it Child, then, who began the academic separation, and later romanticisation, which led to the 54 definition, and the eventual elevation of carriers over writers? (Please reply using only words ending in ion) |
|
27 May 08 - 08:33 AM (#2350032) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: The Doctor No-one has mentioned Graeme Miles, author and composer of literally hundreds of songs between the late 40s and early 70s. Many, perhaps even the majority, have been lost over the years, so we'll never know whether there was a classic amongst them or whether they deserved to disappear. But that seems to be the lot of folk songs anyway. But enough have survived to show what a great writer he was, and if you're not familiar with his work try Martyn Wyndham-Read's CD 'Where Ravens Feed', and especially the title track. Whether he, or anyone else, belongs in this list of greats, however, is entirely a matter of personal taste and opinion. I tend to pick great songs rather than songwriters. |
|
27 May 08 - 09:27 AM (#2350066) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: GUEST,Shimrod "At the end of a week of harvesting the land...the farmer would supply copious amounts of liquor or ale and every man, to a man, was 'expected' to sing..whether or not he had a voice for it. Most of these men were illiterate but could make up their own songs...as did the men on board ships. So a tradition of Folk music came about with many anonymous 'inventors' rather than writers of songs." Forgive me, 'Georgiansilver', but this seems a bit hypothetical to me. Have you got any evidence to support this hypothesis? |
|
27 May 08 - 09:27 AM (#2350068) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: GUEST,John from Kemsing The answer to the title of this thread will never be answered but the devil wrote all the best tunes! |
|
27 May 08 - 09:32 AM (#2350069) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Folkiedave The Doctor is correct of course - there is Graeme Miles, and the rest. Listen to Craig Morgan Robson sing "When the Snows of Winter Fall" and marvel. Still alive - saw him the week before last at Shepley Festival. Dave |
|
27 May 08 - 10:06 AM (#2350098) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: mattkeen Anon is great CupofTeas list for those where we know the author is a great place to start Songwriters who have multiple works written in my lifetime that I believe will live on "in the tradition:" Woody Guthrie Pete Seeger Eric Bogle Gordon Bok Phil Ochs Sidney Carter Tom Paxton Andy M. Stewart Tommy Sands Personally I also would add Chris Wood/Hugh Lupton and John Tams |
|
27 May 08 - 10:24 AM (#2350104) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Les in Chorlton McColl/Seeger. Well written stories strong tunes a great variety. Some taken as traditional |
|
27 May 08 - 10:31 AM (#2350111) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: olddude ANONYMOUS OK then how did you hear it, did it come in a dream or did you hear someone play it? if so how then do you know it is the way it was originally written by anonymous? MY point, we all know folk songs go generation to generation, but you had to have heard it did you not? If not then you don't know about the song. Point is someone wrote it down taught it to you or you heard it. Hence attribute it to the source that brought it to the for front. How many clancy songs are based in tradition ... a bunch - but do we not think clancy when we hear them, at least I do since they brought it to the attention of the folk community. Hence the anonymous is not an answer |
|
27 May 08 - 10:38 AM (#2350119) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: olddude since we cannot go back in time, any traditional music handed down from generation to generation may be entirely different from what was originally written, people add to songs, enhance, when we see a written copy who know how many changes were made, hence we cannot say anonymous is the best writer. since someone wrote it down or played it for us to hear, they interpreted the music. Like the Clancy's or other hence I attribute the anonymous to those who brought it to our attention .. Like Anon |
|
27 May 08 - 10:55 AM (#2350130) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: olddude No.20 - The Turtle Dove (Roud 422) - this popular lament is shown to have evolved from seventeenth century broadside ballads. Its evolution is traced across three centuries including Burns' adaptation and a nineteenth century burlesque. I love this from the button's post Hey Gargoyle see the term EVOLUTION!! maybe 100 writers involved but the last one got us what we hear today ... RIGHT? |
|
27 May 08 - 10:57 AM (#2350131) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: olddude my assertion: There is no anonymous folk music hence who is the best writer |
|
27 May 08 - 11:13 AM (#2350144) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Les in Chorlton I don't think you should beat yourself up over this olddude. Old songs were written by somebody, I think we all agree. Some were passed on more or less unchanged and authorship is known for some and not others. Some were past on and changed quite a lot and ended up in a number of versions? Who contributed most - generally we don't know. When we don't know we say anonymous. I am no master of words but when we don't know and cannot find the name we say anonymous. I feel sure a scholar will explain the origin of anonymous. Anyway McColl/ Seeger |
|
27 May 08 - 11:21 AM (#2350151) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: WalkaboutsVerse A folk song can either be trad. or contemporary, and one of the best known authors would have to be Ewan MacColl. |
|
27 May 08 - 11:24 AM (#2350153) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Les in Chorlton I really am very sorry I joined in this Cheers Les, leaving |
|
27 May 08 - 11:43 AM (#2350161) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego So much of the songbag is filled with music from the oral tradition, from writers who are either anonymous or long dead, or both. Of the composers who are living, or who have been active during our lifetimes, I'd credit Tom Paxton, Peter Seeger, Bob Dylan, Travis Edmonson (of Bud & Travis), Gordon Lightfoot, Woodie Guthrie and even Townes Van Zandt. Bear in mind that I'm speaking from the Yank point of view. |
|
27 May 08 - 12:11 PM (#2350183) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Georgiansilver Guest Shimrod..The only evidence I have to support my post is that in books on and of the period...whether factual or fiction such as those written by Thomas Hardy which reflect actual 'goings on' of the day. A good example is 'Far From The Madding Crowd' Best wishes, Mike. |
|
27 May 08 - 12:18 PM (#2350189) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: kendall My bad. How could I forget Stan Rogers, Woody Guthrie and Dave Goulder? |
|
27 May 08 - 12:36 PM (#2350208) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Big Al Whittle Then theres Tom Bliss himself..... Best though......? Best ever........! yeh....... probably Tom. |
|
27 May 08 - 01:09 PM (#2350233) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Def Shepard Trad. Arr and A.Non :-D |
|
27 May 08 - 01:12 PM (#2350236) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Jim Carroll The term 'folk' does not refer to a specific style of song, it refers to a process which the song, tune, tale, custom - has undergone. Even where the author of the song is known, unless it has gone through that process, it does not qualify as 'folk'. John William Thoms coined the term in 1846 when he referred to 'folklore' and it has been in continuous use since. As far as I'm concerned, until somebody comes up with a better one, that will remain the definition, no matter what misinterpretation, deliberate or otherwise is put on it. Jim Carroll |
|
27 May 08 - 01:55 PM (#2350271) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Carol Stan Rodgers was great 'modern' folk song writer |
|
27 May 08 - 02:18 PM (#2350289) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Big Al Whittle And if you don't agree with this bloke Thoms back in 1846...... well you're a bit of a charlie, and we won't send you out to get the chips - you'd probably get the order wrong. |
|
27 May 08 - 02:47 PM (#2350311) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Jim Carroll You might well be right WMD, but I wouldn't bring back a cabbage, even if it was on a lower shelf. Jim Carroll |
|
27 May 08 - 03:11 PM (#2350332) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: olddude I never knew where the term came from thank you that is interesting |
|
27 May 08 - 03:14 PM (#2350336) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Mrs Scarecrow I'd like to add Bill Caddick to the lists people have already suggested |
|
27 May 08 - 03:15 PM (#2350337) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: irishenglish Ralph McTell |
|
27 May 08 - 03:27 PM (#2350343) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Def Shepard John Tams. Sydney Carter. Charles Causley. (a poet from Cornwall, but one of his poems, Innocent's Song, was turned into a very chilling song and I'm with Mrs Scarecrow here, Bill Caddick is vastly underated in my opinion |
|
27 May 08 - 04:36 PM (#2350404) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: kendall The man from Cornwall who wrote Carrying Nelson Home and The White Shepherd. |
|
27 May 08 - 04:49 PM (#2350419) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie I'm not sure, but I think I read once that there was life before Mr. Zimmerman. CC |
|
27 May 08 - 05:00 PM (#2350432) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Uncle_DaveO Other than that great, prolific "Anon" (or one of them, anyway, or some of them), I have to say Utah Phillips, who just died the other day. Dave Oesterreich |
|
27 May 08 - 05:02 PM (#2350435) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: greg stephens The folk, presumably. |
|
27 May 08 - 05:43 PM (#2350468) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: olddude AAH WE ARE THE ROVING MINSTRELS amazing forgot about Graeme Miles. Do you see why I started the thread that someone said this newbie was total BS. Well you nice folks just gave 100 different people that I have not thought about in years and several months of great music to discover and or re-discover. |
|
27 May 08 - 06:54 PM (#2350536) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: GUEST,Greycap I'll go with Dylan & Paxton - In My Humble Opinion |
|
27 May 08 - 07:25 PM (#2350552) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: GUEST,Gerry. A few from Ireland I would suggest, Pete St. John,Christy Hennessy,and Pat Cooksey. |
|
27 May 08 - 07:47 PM (#2350575) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: van lingle A few who are adept at writing "folk type" songs might include Richard Thompson, Shane McGownan, Kate Rusby (yeah, that's right), Jim Malcolm and Marty Robbins. |
|
27 May 08 - 07:55 PM (#2350580) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: van lingle ... Johnny Cash, in case he wasn't mentioned. |
|
27 May 08 - 09:57 PM (#2350644) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Effsee ...and Harvey Andrews! |
|
27 May 08 - 10:49 PM (#2350655) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Little Hawk Woody Guthrie has to rate pretty high. Bob Dylan certainly thought so. |
|
28 May 08 - 03:52 AM (#2350762) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: old salty Just been listening to Pete Morton's "six billion eccentrics" He's got to be up with the best . X |
|
28 May 08 - 08:17 AM (#2350922) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: olddude I never hear Pete Morton's "six billion eccentrics" Thank you I am on it for sure, have to hear that one ASAP |
|
28 May 08 - 09:18 AM (#2350967) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: GUEST,Betsy at work I don't know about the best EVER, but Brits need to thank the Yank whose songs help to sustain the folk song revival and give us some songs,which had choruses and were good to play. Thankyou Tom Paxton. Also thanks to Olddude for giving Mr Graeme Miles the mention, which, he so richly deserves. |
|
28 May 08 - 09:44 AM (#2350989) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: mattkeen Of course, Johnnie Cash and Shane MacGowan |
|
28 May 08 - 11:31 AM (#2351066) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Mr Happy How can anyone know what the best ever anything is? |
|
28 May 08 - 12:33 PM (#2351119) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: frogprince The answer to that is so simple, Mr. Happy! Whatever is my very favoritest, that's the best ever. : ) Even my "short list" of the best keeps getting longer and longer. Has anyone mentioned John Prine yet? |
|
28 May 08 - 02:26 PM (#2351225) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Def Shepard Mr 'Happy' said, "How can anyone know what the best ever anything is?" Well, it is fun to speculate isn't it? The operative word being fun:-) |
|
28 May 08 - 02:39 PM (#2351234) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: radriano Aw, for Pete's sake, not another "best of" thread! |
|
28 May 08 - 02:48 PM (#2351239) Subject: RE: 'Best' Folk Song writers ever From: peregrina Another angle on 'best' would be to ask: whose songs are now widely sung and thought to be anon./trad. even though the attribution is still known? In that category, and for political folk songs, how about: I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night (by Alfred Hayes, but I didn't know that) and Ah Cud Hew, also Pound a Week Rise (by Ed Pickford). --all have a kind of spare inevitability and remarkable visual vividness. Then there's another 'best' category--assimilating and blending into the tradition, and adding to it, both by writing entirely new songs and by recycling old words and tunes. There: AP Carter, Woody Guthrie and Dylan--all steeped in trad. |
|
28 May 08 - 04:44 PM (#2351345) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton It depends on the song. Some of the best have written some of the worst in addition to the best. It's a question that can't be answered. Frank |
|
28 May 08 - 04:55 PM (#2351359) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: trevek I agree with the earlier post about "folk" being a process. I imagine many of the tunes we now refer to as "folk" would not be classed so at the time, even if the term had existed. If "folk" is supposed to be anon then we might ask whether Burns was writing in "folk-style" or was he simply doing what others had done for years before, putting his own words to old tunes? Just because we know he wrote these versions, does it make it less "folk"? Indeed, my copies of several Scottish songbooks list a number of songs as "trad", when they are noted Burns songs. Elias Lonnrot, the writer of the Kalevala, was criticised for changing his collected material (although he was open about what he had changed and what the original text was). However, as he had travelled and collected the songs from rune-singers, and he had learned many of them himself, he considered himself a singer in the same tradition and vein as those he collected from, indeed as good as some of them. His changes were simply those of a rune-singer making the material his own. |
|
28 May 08 - 06:43 PM (#2351482) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: olddude John Prine - amazing is the word that is that comes to mind for me. Don't know how I could have forgotten about him ...Thank you, time to re-discover the music again |
|
29 May 08 - 03:25 AM (#2351690) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: old salty olddude, oh yes,john prine i forgot too! Did you get to hear the pete morton number? salty X |
|
29 May 08 - 05:01 AM (#2351734) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: The Doctor Kendall, the man from Cornwall is Mike O'Connor, and both songs are on 'Oceans in the Sky', by M W-R, along with another of his, 'The Last Song' and a lot of other newly-composed 'folksongs'. |
|
29 May 08 - 06:08 AM (#2351769) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: GUEST,old git a lot of the above...and Keith Marsden geoff t |
|
29 May 08 - 06:17 AM (#2351774) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Mr Happy Ever = Eternity?? |
|
29 May 08 - 06:21 AM (#2351775) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Jack Blandiver Has anyone mentioned Graeme Miles yet? His songs have a great sense of commonality about them, largely via the wonderful singing of Teesider Robin Dale who has introduced many of them, unaccompanied, into a singaround setting where they become as natural as Thousands or More. I was a session in Lancashire recently & a chap sang El Dorado and it felt like coming home. Sea Coal is my favourite though - I sing it myself because it brings me back to the old sea-coaling days up in Northumberland & contains the immortal line and if we must go hungry we needn't go cold, which you either get or you don't. |
|
29 May 08 - 06:45 AM (#2351785) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Mick Woods I can't see how you can include Anon or trad, as these are not songwriters but attributes applied to certain songs where the original writer is unknown and, in any case one writer didn't write all of these! I don't like using "Best" as it is only an opinion and can't be measured. You could however ask about most prolific or successful in the folk music genre (if there is such a thing) I would think about that the songs that I hear again and again at folk clubs not including traditional and the first three most prolific that spring to mind are Bob Dylan, Eric Bogle and Ewan McColl |
|
29 May 08 - 07:08 AM (#2351806) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: trevek Errrm, Mick... I think everyone knows that really. I don't think many people think Trad's surname was Itional or that Anon's was Ymous. |
|
29 May 08 - 07:11 AM (#2351810) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: GUEST,Mike Rogers 40 oatcake years ago the songs of Dylan and Paxton resonated with me - and they still do. For quality and quantity these two top the list in my view. |
|
29 May 08 - 08:17 AM (#2351882) Subject: Lyr Add: LOVE AND DEATH (Ron Baxter) From: Jack Blandiver And another - Ron Baxter. At least one of his songs is in the DigiTrad (Paddy Doyle) and some others on Permathread: Merchant Navy Songs. Not all of his songs are about the sea though. One of my favourites is Love and Death, written, I think, with the tune of Searching for Lambs in mind. Now love and death in a tavern met, and loudly they called for wine; and as they drank they each let fall their quivers to the ground. Then in their cups fell to argument - which one the mightiest be? Death claimed that crown, "For all bow down, aye, all must come with me." But Love replied, "That is not so - that diadem is mine; though from this life you do take all through that portal you will find, that love lasts through all eternity - true love it does not fade; though split in twain it still remains and lives beyond the grave." "Away, away you moonstruck loon! For when I to all appear, love is lost with their last breath, there remains but grief and tears!" But love, oh she smiled and shook her head, "Though your power I don't deny, For 'tis man's fate that them you'll take - true love it never dies." And the wine it flowed 'til drunkenly, they rose for the night had passed; And each from the floor their quivers took and gathered in their shafts. But each some of the other's took, so now 'tis understood, The reason why oh young men die, and old men fall in love. My setting of this is currently playing on my Myspace page. |
|
29 May 08 - 08:21 AM (#2351886) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Jack Blandiver PS - Ron Baxter has long been a renowned writer of lyrics in the traditional idiom and over the years his lyrics have been set & recorded by all manner of artists of the calibre of Alan Bell, Pint and Dale, Scolds Bridle and Ross Campbell to name but a few. His trick is to write the words to traditional melodies, but when Ron gives you a song (a real honour in these parts!) he doesn't disclose what melody it was he had in mind, leaving it up to the singer to either work it out for themselves - or else come up with a new one... |
|
03 Jun 08 - 11:46 PM (#2356855) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Arne A timely question. If one of the marks of a great songwriter is the number of their songs that others have chosen to record -- the measure of their accaim by their fellow artists -- you have to give a big nod to the recently departed Bruce "U. Utah" Phillips. I did a tally once, and he was right up there with Pete Seeger and Ewan McColl, with over 20 songs (IIRC) that I knew of (and could remember) that others have recorded. Cheers, |
|
04 Jun 08 - 12:42 AM (#2356872) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Ebbie Sometimes I get envious that so many of you know songs and writers that I don't know and in some cases have never heard of. I don't have enough time left to catch up. But I definitely concur with Tommy Sands and John Prine and Utah Phillips and Bob Dylan and I would add Shel Silverstein and Jesse Winchester (love his stuff)and so many more. Kendall, Gordon Bok is coming to Juneau in August and John Prine is booked for some time in September. I won't be missing their shows, for sure. |
|
04 Jun 08 - 04:13 AM (#2356944) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: GUEST,Cats I have to say Jon Heslop, not just because he brings me cups of tea and looks after my house but for songs like 'Old Soldiers', 'Cheap Boats', Lifeboat prayer' and, of course 'Last Fisherman'. |
|
06 Jun 08 - 08:44 AM (#2359256) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: GUEST,Mick Woods Trevek "Errrm, Mick... I think everyone knows that really" Are you some sort of telepath? Read the whole thread. If everybody else knows, as you claim that you think .. why have at least 6 people posted on this thread that they think that Trad or Anon are the best or most prolific songwriters and even the most prolific. |
|
06 Jun 08 - 08:55 AM (#2359265) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: john f weldon Wade Hemsworth, whose work has often been recorded and listed as Anon. |
|
06 Jun 08 - 09:22 AM (#2359286) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: mattkeen Wo betide us MickWoods for having a discussion or expressing an opinion about something that can't be measured Bloody hell this is supposed to be a bit of fun. |
|
06 Jun 08 - 09:33 AM (#2359301) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: trevek Errm Mick, maybe they are having a joke? Perhaps even being... "ironic". |
|
06 Jun 08 - 09:41 AM (#2359314) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: trevek By the way, Mick... I knew you were going to say that! |
|
06 Jun 08 - 06:59 PM (#2359703) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: GUEST,Bill the sound A difficult choice but I think Harvey Andrews |
|
07 Jun 08 - 05:34 PM (#2360300) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: pitheris I'll throw Bill Robinson into the mix. Smokey Robinson is one of the most prolific songwriters of the 20th century. I met him at a party once in the mid 1970s. Very talented musician. He's also a walking encyclopedia of folk songs. Some of his songs may pass the test of time. -Bob |
|
07 Jun 08 - 05:57 PM (#2360327) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: The Sandman 100,there isnt one. |
|
07 Jun 08 - 07:38 PM (#2360389) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Sue Allan Just a note following from Jim's post of 27 May: Thom did coin the word 'folklore', but in this he was just following the German example. Philosopher and writer Johann Gottfried Herder actually coined the word 'folksong' in 1773, albeit in German as 'Volkslied'in an essay on 'Ossian and folksong'. Herder was one of many taken in by James Macpherson's publication of the alleged manuscripts of ancient Scots bard, Ossian- proclaimed as the Celtic Homer –in 1760. The poems turned out to be entirely of Macpherson's own making (although some were re-makings of old ballads). Nevertheless the fictional Ossian was so much part of the Romantic zeitgeist and ideas of the noble savage that he captured the imagination of poets, artists and musicians … Herder for one, who did actually go on to publish a book of folksongs he collected. |
|
07 Jun 08 - 08:10 PM (#2360423) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: the button Herder also added "Volk" to the German political lexicon. Which didn't end well, to say the least. ;-) |
|
08 Jun 08 - 07:48 AM (#2360585) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Sue Allan Quite. And it sometimes seems we have to guard against the same sort of thing happening with 'folk', and be aware of potential hi-jacking by ultra right wing groups for their own ends. |
|
08 Jun 08 - 11:15 AM (#2360665) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Dennis the Elder There are many good folk song writers and some are also good singers. One of my favorites is Eric Bogle, already mentioned by others. Some of his songs have been sung and or recorded by so many people they have become if anything too popular, No mans land (Green fields of France or Willy McBride). Others like The band played waltzing matilda, leaving of Nancy and now I'm easy have such meaningful lyrics as to be amongst the best ever written. I have heard it said he has written in excess of 3,000 songs, although many are concerned with his home since 1969 Australia, I believe the Adelaide area, where he still appears as well as on his tours. His web page www.ericbogle.net contains much more information. I have never seen him live although I know a man who has and live is in his opinion exceptional. The CD i would recommend anyone purchasing if only one is required is a compilation "At this stage", look at the web page for other alternatives. Hope many Mudcatters agree with me. Dennis |
|
08 Jun 08 - 11:31 AM (#2360675) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Silas Richard Thompson? Bill Caddick? |
|
08 Jun 08 - 03:39 PM (#2360866) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Bonzo3legs Richard Shindell must be up there. |
|
08 Jun 08 - 05:34 PM (#2360959) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Mrs Scarecrow Mick Ryan deserves a mention |
|
09 Jun 08 - 05:24 PM (#2361777) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Stringsinger In my opinion, it would not be Dylan. Many of his songs are sophomoric and generalized. Some of his love songs are nice, though. I don't like cults that are built up around artists. |
|
09 Jun 08 - 05:54 PM (#2361820) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: PoppaGator Including Bill "Smokey" Robinson among "folk-song writers" is a bit of a stretch. I absolutely love and admire Smokey and his work, but his (private) knowledge of folksongs does not turn his compositions into "folk music" under any plausible definition. Of course, for many of us, any song written by a known contemporary artist is, ispo facto, not a "folk song." But most of us should be able to agree that some songwriters alive today have enough folk-music background for their work to be categorized as "folk," or at least, "folk-like." One contemporary American writer who was once deeply involved in the folk idiom, and who deserves mention as a unique songwriting talent, is Lucinda Williams. She's not especially prolific, and is such an insane perfectionist that her album releases are few and far between, but whenever she does manage to put something out, there are plenty of articles praising her as the greatest of them all. Maybe, maybe not, but certainly as worthy of a mention here as anyone else listed so far. |
|
15 Jun 08 - 06:56 PM (#2366549) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Susanne (skw) olddude, it's certainly an interesting thread, though it might have benefited from a title bringing out the subjective nature of the term 'best'. Having said that, I'll contribute my own subjective view. I can go along with many of those already mentioned, but I think Brian McNeill deserves to be named for turning out songs of a consistently high quality. Also, hardly any women songwriters have been mentioned. If not 'the best', Judy Small must be rated as another writer of very good songs. Karine Polwart writes (among other things) a very particular kind of modern ballads. And has Malvina Reynolds been mentioned? I honestly can't remember. |
|
15 Jun 08 - 09:01 PM (#2366603) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: oldhippie Bob Dylan, Phil Ochs, and Kate Wolf. Dylan just has the gift, many of Phil's songs are as applicable today as when they were written, and Kate for sheer beauty in lyrics. |
|
16 Jun 08 - 07:10 PM (#2367440) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego I have not, for many years now, worried myself too much regarding the "authenticity" or "legitimacy" of those pieces popularly known as folk songs. I find that, like art or wine, each of us is moved by, enjoys or otherwise embraces a certain body of music which we choose to perform or hear others perform. I guess the term "folk genre" might suffice for much of the music I love. |
|
16 Jun 08 - 09:00 PM (#2367515) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Bee Joni Mitchell, anyone? Randy Newman? Some of theirs surely are or will be folk. |
|
16 Jun 08 - 09:19 PM (#2367521) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Charley Noble What a muddle! Should one by cruel? Should one be didactic? Should one shut up? Carol- It's Stan ROGERS, not Stan Rodgers. There are NO folk song singers who are alive. We call the "live ones" singer-songwriters. But I'm not feelin' very well this evening, so maybe tomorrow I'll be a folk song writer, although not the best one by far. If I were illiterate I evidently would not be a contender, and it's probably (with the help of Mudcat spell-check) self-evident that I am literate. There are some good names mentioned above but I'm not sure that even if they have died they should be considered "Folk Song writers." And I'm not sure who would be the judges. Wouldn't they have to be dead too? Charley Noble, the wine was great! |
|
09 Jul 08 - 09:17 AM (#2384619) Subject: RE: Best Folk Song writer ever From: Jay777 Cor blimey! That's a difficult one- there are/ were so many! I've restricted myself to those I've seen, who are still alive and performing, and came up with the international list of: Harvey Andrews, Christy Moore, and Tom Paxton. They all cover a wide range of subjects, from serious social and political issues, to lighthearted/ funny songs, and have all stood the test of time. |