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27 May 08 - 09:51 AM (#2350083) Subject: UK dance swords petition From: Wyrd Sister Not sure of details of bill, but received this link:petition regarding being able to continue to use swords. Will try to chase background when more time, unless someone beats me to it! |
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27 May 08 - 10:05 AM (#2350095) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: Wyrd Sister Forgot to say, only British citizens, residents, ex-pats etc can sign. Sorry! |
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27 May 08 - 11:02 AM (#2350135) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: nickp Done... although I wouldn't have thought the typical swords used would be affected |
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27 May 08 - 12:21 PM (#2350191) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: Wyrd Sister Thanks. Know what you mean about 'swords', but after hearing of red-tape issues in York this last weekend, I'm taking no chances! |
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27 May 08 - 05:07 PM (#2350441) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: Folkiedave Red tape issues? You mean the insistence that tents should be 6.00 metres (20 feet) apart? I know of no music festival that allows camping which could go ahead in England under such circumstances. But I thought spreading it about that people within tents had to be 4 feet apart was a bit mean though :-) |
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27 May 08 - 05:25 PM (#2350454) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: Tootler Done. Sounds like we have another ill-thought out piece of legislation on its way. The politics of the jerking knee rears its head once again. |
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27 May 08 - 05:33 PM (#2350458) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: Sorcha Wait til the Scots hear about this. They will toss a caber. If not a sword.......how utterly flaming ridiculous. Sorry I can't sign. You have my support! |
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27 May 08 - 05:34 PM (#2350459) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: Emma B Just received this petition via email today - thought it had to be a joke! What next? |
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27 May 08 - 05:35 PM (#2350461) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: Sorcha Ban humans????? Seems safest, actually. |
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27 May 08 - 05:44 PM (#2350469) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: Sorcha And oh yes...let's ban sticks too. They can be made all pointy...and ban the trees they came from!!! How sad and stupid. |
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27 May 08 - 06:07 PM (#2350494) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: Herga Kitty I've signed the petition, but the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 doesn't seem to cover swords - there's a mention in para 240 of the Explanatory Notes of an exemption from the restrictions on imitation firearms when used for historical re-enactments. I've also found a 2006 report on Scottish legislation - but that isn't the responsibility of the UK Parliament or Government. Kitty |
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27 May 08 - 06:17 PM (#2350507) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: Herga Kitty I've now found more info on e-bay Kitty |
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27 May 08 - 06:20 PM (#2350511) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: Sorcha OK...so the next question is....just what constitutes a 'curve'? How MUCH curve is allowed? Obviously a scimitar is right out....but a katana????? Hardly any 'curve' to those. |
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27 May 08 - 06:27 PM (#2350513) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: catspaw49 I think they should ban the swords...........and the costumes...........and the dancing............ Spaw |
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27 May 08 - 06:30 PM (#2350518) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: BanjoRay Surely a long thing used for dancing which doesn't have an edge or a point isn't a sword, but just a vague impression of one? Ray |
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27 May 08 - 06:33 PM (#2350520) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: Pete_Standing Let's add Maypoles to the list of dangerous items/practices. One false move and there would be a strangulation. |
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27 May 08 - 06:34 PM (#2350521) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: Emma B and all those germ health hazard hankies! |
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27 May 08 - 09:05 PM (#2350618) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: The Fooles Troupe Morris Dancers take it all so seriously - from their Hankies to their |
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28 May 08 - 04:31 AM (#2350775) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: Wyrd Sister More information here and here |
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28 May 08 - 06:08 AM (#2350812) Subject: Rapper Dancing -possible sword ban From: GUEST,Acorn4 I've attached the following email from a friend of mine who dances for the Witch Men - Hi All, I don't normally forward stuff like this, but it seems another stealth law that could eliminate your right to perform or watch traditional English pastimes. It would appear the Bill (see below) may only apply to swords, which is bad enough for Long Sword dancers and Rapper Teams, but the next thing could be Morris Sticks which would be another nail in the coffin of your heritage. After that, how soon before they ban .... Drum Sticks, Razor-edged Plectrums, Violin Bows, Bodhran beaters, Harmonicas with sharp corners, Melodeons which can trap fingers. Seriously, please sign the petion if you feel your right to perform or watch in a traditional manner is being threatened. It won't cost you anything, apart from a few moments of your time. Cheers Erik Here is the link: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/dancers |
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28 May 08 - 06:21 AM (#2350819) Subject: RE: Rapper Dancing -possible sword ban From: Liz the Squeak Are we sure this is not a knee jerk reaction to a mis-read article? It has happened, many many times... remember the 'sausages must be called "meat product offal tubes"' debacle a few years ago? LTS |
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28 May 08 - 06:23 AM (#2350821) Subject: RE: Rapper Dancing -possible sword ban From: Bernard Rapper 'swords' can hardly be described as swords in the true sense, so it's unlikely that any attempt at prosecution would get anywhere... |
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28 May 08 - 06:29 AM (#2350827) Subject: RE: Rapper Dancing -possible sword ban From: Mo the caller I've just signed anyway, but lets not talk about stealth laws and Nanny states. Unintended consequences maybe, which we are making people aware of. Of course, the sooner they ban those dangerous (in some hands) Morris sticks and Indian clubs the better. |
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28 May 08 - 06:31 AM (#2350830) Subject: RE: Rapper Dancing -possible sword ban From: Dave Hanson Perhaps the Scots are a bit more sensible, they use real swords ie. claymores in their dancing, no word of a ban yet ? eric |
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28 May 08 - 06:34 AM (#2350833) Subject: RE: Rapper Dancing -possible sword ban From: Mo the caller My daughter was near the front with the other children at a performance at Beverley ff one year and was hit by an Indian club. All the audience drew in there breath, but as she staggered up to the top of the cinema to find us, she overheard someone say "Oh, it's OK, it's not a LITTLE child." |
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28 May 08 - 06:41 AM (#2350843) Subject: RE: Rapper Dancing -possible sword ban From: Mr Happy Surely [not Shirley!] rappers aren't swords as they're totally pointless [2 handles]!! |
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28 May 08 - 06:54 AM (#2350851) Subject: RE: Rapper Dancing -possible sword ban From: banjoman I,m all for banning melodeons as dangerous weapons, but long swords??? |
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28 May 08 - 07:00 AM (#2350856) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: Geoff the Duck This all sounds like someone trying to invent problems which don't exist. If anything, the petition seems to be trying to get the government to include things which are not and never have been weapons into legislation which is nothing to do with traditional dance. Anyway - traditional activities are by any definition some form of historical reanactment. The key point in existing legislation as aplied to REAL swords and weapons is tha it must be an official group with public liability insurance. That pretty much covers Morris and sword teams. Quack! Geoff the Duck. |
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28 May 08 - 07:08 AM (#2350863) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: Mo the caller No harm in saying to the legislators 'make sure the problems don't arise' BEFORE they pass the law, thats what white (or is it green) papers and consultation are all about. |
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28 May 08 - 07:14 AM (#2350869) Subject: RE: Rapper Dancing -possible sword ban From: The Sandman I have signed.Dick Miles |
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28 May 08 - 07:16 AM (#2350871) Subject: RE: Rapper Dancing -possible sword ban From: Liz the Squeak The difference with fighting swords and rapper dance swords - swords are swung freely and used to hit people. As a risk assessor I would put the audience behind a barrier and have a second barrier positioned a sword length plus inside the first, so that the sword fighters don't get too close to the crowd. Rapper and dance swords are held (relatively) securely at both ends during the dance and are only 'free' during the clash, which is directed inwards and is only for the noise effect - it is never violent or potentially harmful (skinned knuckles and personal disputes aside). If someone were stupid enough to try to walk through a set, they might get a clip from a sword, but the set does tend to be fairly tight and close. They don't get swung freely in an arc and are not heavy or sharp. There is a potential hazard in the steeper bends, but the most likely to be hurt are the dancers. I've not heard of any rapper snapping under stress and I'm told they're pretty rigourously tested and replaced regularly. Morris sticks are another kettle of puddings. They break. Some teams seem to take great pride in making sure at least one breaks per gig. Splintering can be reduced by taping the ends of the sticks and hitting less violently. Or do as Royal Liberty Morris do and use scaffold poles (joke - they're even more dangerous than splintering sticks!). I've been on the receiving end of a fighting sword swung indiscriminately - even though I was sitting 6ft away from the performer, behind a bollard - it got me in the side of the head and bent my glasses; I've lost count of stick splinters I've caught - but I'm yet to see or recieve an injury from a long dance sword or rapper - if you don't include the bad back from lifting the bag out of the car. As a risk assessor, the key is crowd control. If you are in a procession, it is up to the stewards or police to make sure the crowds stay a safe distance away, behind any barriers and don't run stupid risks. If you're at a stand then it's up to the other members of the team to make sure people are at a safe distance. Otherwise, that's why you have insurance. LTS |
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28 May 08 - 07:21 AM (#2350877) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: Les in Chorlton I signed and will bother my MP. I guess them Scottish Swords are more of a problem. Perhaps MI5 could monitor the purchase of claymores by people who don't look stereotypically Scots? |
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28 May 08 - 08:00 AM (#2350909) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler How does this affect Black Rod etc. at the opening of Parliament? That is of course not an Historical re-enactment so presumably will not be allowed. |
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28 May 08 - 08:20 AM (#2350926) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: Don(Wyziwyg)T I've signed. Just a thought, tho'......Although Rappers hardly classify as weapons, perhaps we should remember that not all Scottish dancers are in Scotland, and those who dance in England surely use the same real swords. I for one want to protect THEIR right to continue. Don T. |
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28 May 08 - 02:18 PM (#2351215) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: Darowyn The Violent Crime Reduction Act passed into law in 2006. It includes a clause exempting theatrical, TV and film performances and rehearsals. So if there is any problem, just say that you are rehearsing for an indoor performance. Bolt the stable door, the horse left two years ago! Cheers Dave |
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28 May 08 - 03:39 PM (#2351273) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: GUEST,squeezeboxkc so how does this affect Mumming teams, in effect we are performing a traditional play reflecting a historical fact!!!!! perhaps; was George real? did Robin Hood exist as a YORKSHIRE folk hero those arrows could have been sharp. would beelzeebub exist with sharp dripping pan Egypt is now a republic is the king real, where is paradine to have a prince or little devil doubt exist etc, we fully support the petition and have signed it LOL this government is taking the p=ss ken |
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28 May 08 - 04:16 PM (#2351308) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: GUEST,Ed Liz said, "remember the 'sausages must be called "meat product offal tubes"' debacle a few years ago?" It was more than a few years ago, and was part of a 'Yes Minister' episode. It wasn't real! This Sword nonsense isn't real and is utter bollocks too, so Liz's mistake makes a good point. Remember the stuff around PELs, where you'd go to prison if you sang Happy Birthday? Stuff and nonsene |
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28 May 08 - 04:55 PM (#2351360) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: GUEST,Wheatman The petition has my name With regard to PEL I do not want to be the test case in court so it was important to protest and got the morris exempt. The local Authorities are waiting for the results of test cases so they have a yard stick (pun intended) to apply the legislation. Any one who has danced the Morris (collective term for as types of "ritual dance") will know how it can be a danger to the public and performers alike. Rappers break just as morris sticks do. Last week end in York I saw at least two longswords leave the set heading for Joe Public. I'm glad to say they caused no harm. So much for a sedate, safe dance. I believe a member of the public was hurt by a rapper dancer being flung from the set ( caused by a broken sword) at Sidmouth last year. Life is not without risk but do not rely on your insurance as the suits will wriggle out of paying on a technicality if they can. Make sure your risk assessment is done and up to date. |
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29 May 08 - 06:01 AM (#2351768) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: Wyrd Sister Further clarification, received by forwarded email: "The Morris Fed along with the Ring have been looking into this for about 6 weeks now, from when it 1st came up... I sent info about it to StoneMonkey via Ron, SDU via Sal Wearing and various others then.. weeks ago.. and the received info to investigations show: A Sword under this Act (which by the way IS in law and has been since April) is defined as over 50 cms (20 inches ish) long, Rigid Curved and Sharpened on at least 1 edge. So longswords, Rapper swords etc should not be caught by it, only if Grenosides Captain decides to sharpen the sword used in that role (or Monkeys, or Kingsmen etc ) will it be "illegal"... and Para 4 of the details of the Act give Exemption for Historic Re-enactments (so I assume a Lord somewhere is in the Sealed Knot!)... and if what we do is not Historic blah blah etc ... it would be a most enlightening court Hearing to be involved in and I wonder how much Good Publicity we could get from it... Yes sign the petition to raise awareness but dont Panic... Trefor Owen Morris Fed Pres...." Hey ho! Perhaps I should have waited, but went ahead on the strength of names I recognised amongst the signatories. It won't hurt anyway, so I'm not THAT apologetic!! |
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02 Jun 08 - 08:26 AM (#2355052) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: manitas_at_work If your longsword is "sedate, safe dance" you're doing it wrong. I recently had to go to A&E for some stitches after getting a longsword in the eye during a practice. |
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02 Jun 08 - 08:34 AM (#2355057) Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition From: Bonnie Shaljean Could the clones maybe combine these three threads? |