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04 Jun 08 - 08:57 AM (#2357079) Subject: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Bobert Well, the pressure is on from the Clintons for an Obama/Clinton ticket but I'm not too wild about that idea... Bill won't stay home in New York and will be a major pest to Barak so... Obama/Richardson??? Obama/Webb??? Obama/Chongo-Chimp??? |
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04 Jun 08 - 08:58 AM (#2357082) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: GUEST,Fantasma Who gives a shit which corporado he picks to be a matching set for photo opps? |
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04 Jun 08 - 08:59 AM (#2357085) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Mrrzy Please pick Edwards please pick Edwards please pick Edwards... |
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04 Jun 08 - 08:59 AM (#2357086) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: GUEST,Fantasma Oh wait. I shouldn't say that. Upon instantaneous reflection, I believe Obama truly deserves to have Clinton as his running mate. Bill Clinton! Kiss kiss! |
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04 Jun 08 - 09:00 AM (#2357087) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Rapparee Edwards or Richardson, if he has any sense at all. Hillary's sun has done set. |
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04 Jun 08 - 09:01 AM (#2357089) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: GUEST,Fantasma Counting out 18 million Democratic voters? Not too wise, methinks. |
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04 Jun 08 - 09:05 AM (#2357097) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: wysiwyg The smarter move will be a backroom deal to offer the VP slot publicly, and she refuse it graciously, in exchange for a cabinet position where she can do well, and on the strength of which anticipated payback she will campaign like heck for him. ~S~ |
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04 Jun 08 - 09:08 AM (#2357100) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: John MacKenzie Ah, there's nothing like a nice well balanced point of view. and That's nothing like a nice well balanced point of view. Fantasma of the Operator |
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04 Jun 08 - 09:10 AM (#2357105) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: GUEST,Fantasma Actually, I hope Obama does get stuck with Hillary. They deserve each other. I can't quite decide which one wins the venality and blind ambition sweepstakes. Like the voters, I guess I'll call it a draw. |
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04 Jun 08 - 09:10 AM (#2357106) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Ebbie John Edwards or Jim Webb X (crossed fingers) |
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04 Jun 08 - 09:14 AM (#2357115) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Beer John Edwards. Please not Hillary. There is nothing worst than an angry woman and I believe she is just that. No offense mudcat ladies. Beer (adrien) |
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04 Jun 08 - 09:17 AM (#2357119) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: GUEST,Fantasma Angry women are the backbone of the Democratic party though, Beer. So what are you saying? |
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04 Jun 08 - 09:20 AM (#2357123) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Beer What I'm saying is that she will not be happy playing second fiddle. |
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04 Jun 08 - 09:23 AM (#2357125) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: GUEST,Fantasma That isn't what all the propaganda puppet pundits are saying, Beer. They are (mostly--with the exception of Howard Fineman last night on the TEEVEE) all saying there is a very real expectation that Obama MUST offer it to her, and be willing to accept her as his running mate. As to the "playing second fiddle" thing--silly. Is Cheney a second fiddle? |
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04 Jun 08 - 09:24 AM (#2357127) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: The Fooles Troupe I heard a comment that if Hilary is VP, the number of Secret Service agents will have to be doubled. Surely Obama isn't afraid of her THAT much... |
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04 Jun 08 - 09:27 AM (#2357132) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: GUEST,Fantasma No, but the Republican right wing nuts are. And a few of the Democratic party right wing nuts too, now that I think of it--you know, those types that shoot all the women in the room on college campuses...murder Amish school girls by firing squad. Those sorts of fellas. |
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04 Jun 08 - 09:29 AM (#2357134) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Bill D Even Tom Brokaw said that he 'hears' that if VP is offered, she would accept it. I suspect that having 2 Clintons in the #2 seat would be more awkward than having them as president. Obama doesn't need a Dick Cheney behind him, wanting 'special' powers. Bush did. |
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04 Jun 08 - 09:30 AM (#2357136) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: GUEST,Fantasma Besides, no matter who the VeePee is, they will double the Secret Service detail. Sorry to ruin the joke, but it really isn't all that funny when you think about it, now is it? Or is this the race/gender double standard of Obama's peeps we've all come to know so well this campaign season. You know the ones I'm talking about. The ones who howl when RFK was mentioned by Clinton being construed as a "suggestion" that Obama be assassinated? I see it doesn't really cut both ways, as jokes about assassinating Hillary are just fine, right boys? |
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04 Jun 08 - 09:35 AM (#2357140) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: GUEST,Fantasma I wouldn't be so sure about Obama not needing a Washington insider as VeePee, BillD. I really think he will need one if he is to have any success whatsoever as president. It is still a damn polarized party in a damn polarized town. What the ticket needs is someone with VERY long coattails, to sweep Democrats into power a la Tony Blair and New Labour. Which was something neither Obama or Clinton could do on their own, but might just be able to pull off together. That is, if the American voters turn out to be less misogynist than they have proven to be so far. There is a real risk to putting her on the ticket, for sure. But many a nominee has put "the enemy" on as VeePee and locked them safely out of the West Wing. Why, it is a time honored tradition in American politics! And if the gambit pays off, the Dems could win back the White House and both houses of Congress by a landslide! Think of that! I really doubt that will happen in this economy with two endless wars the public hates going on, but there you have it. The "politics as usual" dream team! |
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04 Jun 08 - 09:53 AM (#2357154) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Donuel Just to give Hillary a caniption fit... Barak could float a trial balloon regarding Condi Rice as VP! boy oh boy, am I mean or what? |
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04 Jun 08 - 09:53 AM (#2357156) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Peace Thing is, most folks have just one vote. |
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04 Jun 08 - 09:56 AM (#2357161) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: GUEST,Fantasma And several million Democrats only get half a vote. But I digress. |
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04 Jun 08 - 10:02 AM (#2357163) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Donuel Polarized Party? Jeez Louise, everyone knows that Will Rodger put it best back in 1918, "I don't belong to any organized political parties...I am a Democrat"" One can take some solice in that. The group intelligence is always better than an individual or the dogma of a greed machine. |
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04 Jun 08 - 10:04 AM (#2357164) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: GUEST,Fantasma So now after all these years of referring to the Republicrats as a greed machine Donuel, you have decided they are The Good Guys? Man, are YOU gullible. |
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04 Jun 08 - 10:10 AM (#2357169) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Bobert Welcome back, Fantz... This ol' hillbilly been missin' you... B;~) |
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04 Jun 08 - 10:11 AM (#2357170) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Peace Gullibe isn't in the dictionary. Why is that? |
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04 Jun 08 - 10:13 AM (#2357175) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: GUEST,Fantasma Try the Cambodian creole urban slang dictionary. :) |
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04 Jun 08 - 10:15 AM (#2357179) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: GUEST,Fantasma Aw, thanks Bobert. But don't thank me. Thank the Mudcat censors for not deleting my posts and blocking my access, like they have been doing routinely for months now when I say something too provocative about Catholicism or politics for their sensitive egos to handle. |
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04 Jun 08 - 10:17 AM (#2357180) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Amos BEcause Fantz ripped it out when she started to realize ti might apply to her. A |
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04 Jun 08 - 10:20 AM (#2357185) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Wesley S I'd like to see Edwards as Attorney General. He can do a lot of good things there to help fight corporate greed. As far as VP it would make sense to me to offer it to Bill Richardson. I think he's be an asset demographically. I can't imagine that Obama would want Hillary as his VP. He'll offer her a cabinet position of some sort - maybe HEW - but he won't want her and Bill at his back for the next four years. But my guess is that the VP will be offered to someone under the radar. We'll see. |
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04 Jun 08 - 10:26 AM (#2357193) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: GUEST,Fantasma I know a lot of people would like to see Edwards as AG, but he has been very clear that he doesn't want that job. And in politics, it often doesn't matter who you don't want as VEEPEE. It becomes a question of who you have to take. Think Reagan/Bush I. Mortal enemies, who were forced to mesh their campaigns to win. Gave birth to the Bush/Cheney monster. And Obama will have the Clintonistas mercilessly on him as long as he is in power, for the rest of all of their natural born lives. The Clintons aren't going anywhere, despite misogynist fantasies to the contrary here. But hey--keep voting Republicrat as usual if you want to keep America safe for your endangered and badly outmoded way of life. |
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04 Jun 08 - 10:39 AM (#2357205) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Wesley S "but he has been very clear that he {Edwards} doesn't want that job." I've missed those references. Is there a link you can provide for that? And speaking of mortal enemies don't leave out Kennedy and Johnson. That was a classic combo. |
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04 Jun 08 - 10:45 AM (#2357211) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: GUEST,Fantasma Sorry WesleyS, but I don't have a reference to hand, and I'm off to work. Also Carter/Kennedy. Kennedy was EXTREMELY bitter about the way Carter played it out--so much so, he wouldn't campaign for the ticket in the general. |
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04 Jun 08 - 11:18 AM (#2357239) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Bobert I really hate to point this out but John Edwards didn't even carry North Carolina when he ran with Kerry on '04... Actually, I could live with Hillary if Bill was placed under house arrest up in New York for the next 8 years... He's gotten way too cranky... Sorry, Fantz, that you got censored... I never minded you calling me names... Okay, callin' me a "sexist" was over the top but, hey??? I been called worse... B~ |
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04 Jun 08 - 11:18 AM (#2357240) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: mg Absolutely there should be no pretend deals where he pretends to offer it to her and she declines. First of all, I wouldn't trust her to keep her end of the bargain. She probably would trick him and then accept and then shame on him for being dumb. It is not like this is a big secret. And it is dishonest. He should call her and say I am going to make another choice for VP but I will give you H&W. And he had better have a firm committment from his selected VP and announce it immediately. If she needs an explanation, he can say he doesn't think they would work that well together on a personal level and leave it at that. She is owed nothing. Her voters can be spoken to directly and a woman offered the slot..someone without her baggage and character constellation. Oh, and not Rendell. That man seems like a bully to me. |
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04 Jun 08 - 11:29 AM (#2357252) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: irishenglish Fantasma, you must be the only person who would bother to type out VEEPEE when most of us use VP-wonder why? Personally I think Richardson. If Hillary Clinton wishes to try her hand again, she will not want to be second fiddle. Incidentally, as someone pointed out this morning, because of this long Democratic nomination process, the one good thing for Obama is that he now has infastructure in place in all 50 states. |
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04 Jun 08 - 11:42 AM (#2357264) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Bill D Sure is a lot of reading between my lines... I never said Obama might not find a Washington Insider to help as VP...I said he didn't need someone who would demand the powers that Cheney got....which Billary might do. I suspect that Obama is smart enough to know that. |
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04 Jun 08 - 12:01 PM (#2357282) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: GUEST,dianvan Obama has his choice of several good candidates: Edwards, Richardson or Clinton. The question is, who does the Party want? My guess is Clinton. Clinton/Obama would be a sweep but I'd be a little nervous if I were Obama. |
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04 Jun 08 - 12:17 PM (#2357293) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Rapparee Pardon my cynicism, but the if the voters want a Democratic administration they'd better be prepared to vote the Democratic ticket, regardless of the VP candidate. You can't split your vote, and the original plan of "winner=prez, runner-up=VP" was tossed back around 180something. |
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04 Jun 08 - 12:17 PM (#2357294) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Bee-dubya-ell I think it's VP or nothing for Hillary. I don't see why an imcumbent Senator from a large important state where she's very likely to be re-elected next time around would want to swap that kind of power and job security for a cabinet-level job where she'd be subject to being fired for any reason her boss sees fit. If Hillary were to accept a cabinet position and get dumped from it, she'd have a hard time either regaining her Senate seat or taking another stab at the Presidency. Also, I don't think Obama would relish the possibility of having to fire Mrs. Clinton. The perception of payback would be there, even if the firing were fully justifed. |
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04 Jun 08 - 12:19 PM (#2357296) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Peace Got a job as a human cannonball. Was hired and fired on the same day. |
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04 Jun 08 - 12:20 PM (#2357298) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: mg all the more reason she shouldn't be VP. I don't think you can fire a VP. Oh please not her for VP. mg |
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04 Jun 08 - 12:26 PM (#2357301) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: George Papavgeris For someone who doesn't give a shit, Fantasma can't keep its hands off the keyboard - 14 posts no less. Then it calls leaving out Hillary Clinton "unwise", only to say later that "they deserve each other". Nothing like holding on to one's views steadfastly, then. Must be a slow day at Ghostbusters Inc. |
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04 Jun 08 - 12:33 PM (#2357306) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Little Hawk Chongo Chimp for sure. Obama would be foolish to overlook the primate vote in this election. And Hillary? Secretary of State or some similar influential post. Chongo would serve as an excellent buffer between the Clintons and Obama and he would know very well how to negotiate in that position, plus he can provide his own security. |
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04 Jun 08 - 02:42 PM (#2357411) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: GUEST,Nostradammit If he chooses Clinton he will win the presidency. Then after a reasonable length of time they will "Diana" him. |
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04 Jun 08 - 02:46 PM (#2357417) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: kendall We all have opinions, none is more valid than another. Now, let's look at a bit of history...No anti war candidate has ever won the White House. |
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04 Jun 08 - 02:57 PM (#2357427) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Bert That doesn't say much for the American people Kendall. |
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04 Jun 08 - 02:58 PM (#2357428) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: katlaughing Bobert, why feed such trolling? She left on her own anyway: Subject: RE: Hillary's Offensive, Dangerous Comment From: GUEST,Fantasma - PM Date: 24 May 08 - 03:48 PM Outta here for good. |
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04 Jun 08 - 03:06 PM (#2357433) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Alice Bush and Cheney remind me of the cartoon mice Pinky and the Brain. Every episode was the Brain talking about his plan to "take over the world!!!!". The Brain looks and acts like Cheney, and Pinky acts like Bush. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinky_and_the_Brain |
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04 Jun 08 - 03:08 PM (#2357436) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Alice The cartoon's famous tagline is: Pinky: "Gee Brain, what do you want to do tonight?" The Brain: "The same thing we do every night, Pinky- try to take over the world." THANK GOODNESS WE ARE SOON DONE WITH BUSH/CHENEY. |
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04 Jun 08 - 03:10 PM (#2357441) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: katlaughing That's the perfect analogy of them, Alice! Except I like P&B and don't think they are inherently evil!**bg** |
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04 Jun 08 - 03:13 PM (#2357444) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: irishenglish Thread drift alert-"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering? I think so Brain, but how are we going to get monkey's to use dental floss?!" |
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04 Jun 08 - 03:16 PM (#2357446) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Wesley S Here's a story from CNN: (CNN) — A host of prominent Democrats are pushing for an Obama-Clinton unity ticket — but Jimmy Carter isn't one of them. The former president, who publicly endorsed Barack Obama shortly before polls closed Tuesday in the final two primary states, told a London newspaper that a joint ticket between the two former rivals would be "the worst mistake that could be made." "That would just accumulate the negative aspects of both candidates," Carter told the Guardian, saying that both candidates' vulnerabilities could overshadow that the ticket if the two team up together. "If you take that 50 percent who just don't want to vote for Clinton and add it to whatever element there might be who don't think Obama is white enough or old enough or experienced enough or because he's got a middle name that sounds Arab, you could have the worst of both worlds," he said. This is not the first time the former president has expressed doubt in the success of a unity ticket. Speaking at a Houston event late last month, Carter called the prospect "highly unlikely," and said other potential picks could better serve the Illinois senator. "I think it would be highly unlikely for Obama to ask her to take it," he said then. "Because I don't see how it would help his ticket. I think he needs somebody like a [former Georgia Sen.] Sam Nunn, but I won't name others. But I think if he asked her, she would take it." |
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04 Jun 08 - 03:49 PM (#2357473) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: maire-aine First choice for VP: John Edwards Second choice for VP: Bill Richardson Secretary of State: Joe Biden First Supreme Court vacancy: Hillary Clinton Secretary of Defense: Jim Webb |
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04 Jun 08 - 03:54 PM (#2357481) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: katlaughing I agree with Jimmy Carter. I hope Obama is listening. Caroline Kennedy is one of the people advising him on VP choices. It should be interesting! |
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04 Jun 08 - 04:20 PM (#2357501) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Joe Offer
Oh - and you're not deleted for "provocative opinions" - it's for personal attacks and general nastiness. Rational opinions are welcome here, no matter what side of the fence they're on. Nastiness and bullying, we can do without. Speak your mind, but don't attack people. OK, now back to the discussion. -Joe Offer- |
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04 Jun 08 - 05:29 PM (#2357560) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Amos The "unity" of the Democratic effort between now and November does not require Hillary being the Vice Presidential candidate. It requires everyone clear their minds of garbage, baggage, bias, prejudice, and lizard-think, and impose a task on themselves to examine how to bring about the best available result. That (IMHO) is what good democratic process is all about. A |
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04 Jun 08 - 06:00 PM (#2357595) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: GUEST,Cruiser Jim Webb. A very intelligent U.S. Naval Academy Graduate, Marine Corp Officer, author, and a true patriot. |
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04 Jun 08 - 06:08 PM (#2357606) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Bobert Not to mention that he counters McCain's toughness... |
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04 Jun 08 - 07:31 PM (#2357696) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: kendall Bert, you are right. A recent poll says that 30% of the voters still think Obama is a Muslim. That's what we get for allowing ignorant people to vote. |
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04 Jun 08 - 07:40 PM (#2357703) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: pdq Obama's father was a faithful Muslim. According the laws of Islam, Barak Obama is a Muslim. There is no way he can get out of that. When the situation suits him, as in travels to Muslim countries or a speech to Black Muslims, he makes sure they feel he is one of them. He is a hypocrite, but most people are to some extent. |
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04 Jun 08 - 07:51 PM (#2357714) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Bobert That is a real stretch, pdq... Faith isn't something that anyone is born with... It's something that one accepts with search and learning... And for those of us of Faith, relearning from time to time... And your sources for when Obama gave a speech to Black Muslims, por favor??? I haven't heard about that... Where and when did it occur??? B~ |
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04 Jun 08 - 07:51 PM (#2357715) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: akenaton The "change" promised by Mr Obama is already starting to take place. Unfortunately the change is in his professed stance on American foreign policy LINK |
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04 Jun 08 - 08:01 PM (#2357727) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: pdq I have talked to people of the Moslem faith. They all say Obama is Muslim whether he likes it or not. Calling people "ignorant" because they know the truth is just plain mean-spirted. People who consider Barak Obama to be a Muslim include (probably) all the 9 million Muslims in the US. All must be considered "ignorant"? I hope not. |
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04 Jun 08 - 08:08 PM (#2357734) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Amos The NPR folks interviewed three leading Muslim religious leaders; they concurred that he is not a Muslim because of his birth, but only by his choice to become one. As such he never has been Muslim. A |
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04 Jun 08 - 08:25 PM (#2357745) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Bobert Yer sources seem to be a little on the skimpy side, pdq.... So until you come up with like, ahhhhhh, real sources... I think you can consider your assertion that Obama is a Muslim has been fairly well debunked... But I reepect your right to say what ever you want, regardless of the truthfullness... B~ |
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04 Jun 08 - 08:28 PM (#2357749) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Little Hawk You can be human whether you like it or not. But can you be "Muslim" whether you like it or not? LOL! Obama is forced to be Muslim because his father was one??? And you say "Calling people ignorant because they know "the truth"????? What the heck is "the truth"? Who actually knows THE TRUTH? I know a of people think they do.... Well, it's a matter of opinion, right? And what is that opinion based ON? Opinions are based mostly on things people have been told by other people...who were told the same thing by other people...who were told the same thing by other people...trace that back to the very first time it was told in some ancient book and you go a looooooong way back! So all people are doing is what a parrot does. They were told to say "Polly want a cracker!" and they say it over and over again. They were told to say "I pledge allegiance to the flag..." and they say it over and over again. They were told that "If you're born a Muslim, you're always a Muslim", and they believe it and say it over and over again. They were told that "All Jews think about is money" and they believe that too and say it over and over again. Now list about 22,000 other stupid parrot-like things people are repeating over and over again because someone else told them to!!! So, pdq, why would you choose to support a few million Polly Parrots who are repeating the notion that "If you're born to a Muslim father, you're always a Muslim"???? Why would you choose to believe that or give it any credence? Because it's convenient to the argument you are engaged in right now, that's why. ;-) If you were arguing the opposite, you would laugh at the notion. And you accuse Obama of hypocrisy???? Gad, man, take note of the beam in your own eye! Obama is anything he wishes to be. If he wishes to be Christian, he is Christian, for as long as he wishes to be Christian and no longer. If he acts like "one of them" when he's visiting a Muslim community (meaning he dons some of their cultural clothing as a sign of friendship and respect for their culture)...he's not doing anything different from what thousands of politicians have been doing since time immemorial. He's attempting to create some goodwill. Goodwill is something we could use a lot more of these days, specially between Christians and Muslims and Jews, wouldn't you say? I was born to atheists, pdq. Now I have developed some spiritual beliefs over the years, but not in connection with any specific church or organized religion. Ain't I lucky? You cannot polly-parrot me as being a member of any specific religion, and that gives me a freedom that I am quite glad to have. But I bet it would get in the way if I was running for office in the USA. Yup, it could be a real impediment, I'm thinking. I might almost be forced to join some Christian congregation or else face the fact that I was unelectable. The notion that Obama has no choice about whether or not he is (technically) a Muslim!...good Lord!!! Get serious, man. He is a human being, and human beings are all supposed to be FREE! That means free of someone else's stereotyping as to who and what they are. THEY decide who and what they are. |
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04 Jun 08 - 08:31 PM (#2357752) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: pdq Personally, I don't give a rat's ass what religion Obama is. I do object to Jeremiah Wright's anti-White and anti-American rants. If Obama ever shared those beliefs he is unfit to hold public office. |
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04 Jun 08 - 09:11 PM (#2357768) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Amos PDQ: You obviously did not understand what Wright said about America. A |
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04 Jun 08 - 09:22 PM (#2357775) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Bobert No, Amos, he/she doesn't... Probably got the "20 second" media version which played 24/7 for 2 weeks... |
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04 Jun 08 - 09:30 PM (#2357777) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: pdq Obama has a perfect right to reject his Moslem birth. I would . Really, I don't give a rat's ass whether Obama does or not. But, since about 1.8 billion Moslems, if asked, would say he is a Moslem, then he is a Moslem. Live with it. |
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04 Jun 08 - 09:49 PM (#2357787) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: McGrath of Harlow It just is not true that you become a Muslem merely by virtue of having a Muslim parent, any more than you become a Catholic (for example) merely by virtue of your parentage. It's not analogous in this respect to Judaism. Insofar as there may be Muslims or Catholics who think you do, they just don't know their religion too well. |
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04 Jun 08 - 10:40 PM (#2357819) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: katlaughing about 1.8 billion Moslems, if asked, would say he is a Moslem, then he is a Moslem 1.8 billion Christians might say I was Christian, that would not make me a Christian. Why do you believe such an absurd statement? It matters NOT what anyone else thinks a person is; they are who they choose to be, no matter their birth, etc. BTW, Joe, thanks! |
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04 Jun 08 - 10:49 PM (#2357823) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: pdq I did not say I believe anything about Obama's religion. I said that Islam has rules, and one is that the son of a faithful Muslim is, by birth, a Muslim. If you fools don't like that, take it up with the practitioners of Islam. I don't write the rules but I do like to inform the ignorant whenever possible. Have a nice day. |
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04 Jun 08 - 10:52 PM (#2357827) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Amos Not according to the experts of sharia which I have cited, But the truth is you don't know, and I don't know. So maybe it's one sect vs another. In any case it absolutely inaccurate t call Obama a Muslim in ordinary conversation knowing full well what can be misconstrued thereby. It would be a serious disservice. HE says he is not. In this country that's how someone's religion gets defined. A |
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04 Jun 08 - 10:55 PM (#2357829) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: pdq Congratulations, TIA. You have reached the lowest level anyone has ever acheived in the history of Mudcat. Proud of yourself? |
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04 Jun 08 - 11:25 PM (#2357856) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: GUEST,TIA "Obama's father was a faithful Muslim. According the laws of Islam, Barak Obama is a Muslim. There is no way he can get out of that." And Hitler was a Jew. |
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04 Jun 08 - 11:52 PM (#2357871) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Amos Obama was raised a Christian from the time he was six. He has never personally espoused Muslimism. As such the only opinion the millions of Muslim PDQ conjures up can have is possibly that he is an apostate. Being an apostate does not make you one the gang. I think this is just wild rumormongering. A |
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04 Jun 08 - 11:57 PM (#2357873) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Ebbie According the laws of Islam, Barak Obama is a Muslim. There is no way he can get out of that." pdq pdq's source? Jim Lad, I do believe." "I was born to atheists, pdq." LH. Little Hawk, it must grieve you that you have no choice but to be an atheist also. LOL |
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05 Jun 08 - 12:38 AM (#2357889) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: mg Well, you are not automatically a Catholic, but you are baptized at a few days of age. Someone sprinkles holy water on you and says some words and you are Catholic. You can decide later on you would rather be a Hindu, or an atheist, or a Mormon, but you are branded a Catholic forever and ever. It is not inherited though...you have to be baptized. I don't buy this you are totally free to choose your religion. That is a fairly new concept. It's a good one, to be sure..be what you want, but respect those who are in the older traditions. mg |
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05 Jun 08 - 12:49 AM (#2357892) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Ron Davies "branded a Catholic forever and ever". It would be interesting to know what a real authority might say about this. I suspect Joe has more expertise on this sort of question than many of us, who seem to often sound off on any number of topics without much logic or factual basis. Hope he comments. |
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05 Jun 08 - 01:22 AM (#2357902) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Amos In t is country, if a Catholic foreswears, and becomes a Buddhist, then by God he's a Buddhist. A |
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05 Jun 08 - 02:57 AM (#2357927) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Joe Offer Well, the "mark" of Baptism is supposed to be indelible (although not visible) - so, from one perspective, a person baptized Catholic is Catholic for life. If the person doesn't practice Catholicism, then it probably doesn't make much difference to him. Islam and Judaism are passed on by birth - Islam by the father and Judaism by the mother. I don't know if either faith has a procedure for removing oneself from the religion. Once again, if the person doesn't practice the faith, then he is functionally not a member of the faith. So, in terms of function, it would seem that a person must practice a religion to be a member. That's something that flows from within the individual. In terms of definition, the individual may not have much control - we are mostly defined by forces outside ourselves, whether or not that definition fits our essence. I'm not well-versed in the legalities of membership in Islam, but I think it could be validly argued that Barack Obama both is and is not a Muslim. That depends on one's perspective - but for fundamentalists, having more than one perspective is anathema. My four kids and my four siblings were all baptized Catholic, and none of them practice the religion. I would think I would be insulting them if I called them Catholic. If Barack Obama says he's not Muslim, than I'd say he's telling the truth. I was appalled by an e-mail I received this week that called him a liar for saying he's not a Muslim. For all intents and purposes, Barack Obama is not a Muslim, although some people want to pin that label on him. And although my children and siblings were baptized Catholic by parents who believed it a wonderful thing to bring up children in a faith context, they don't want to be called Catholic - and I respect that. -Joe- |
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05 Jun 08 - 05:22 AM (#2358003) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: akenaton And why does it matter?? Mr Obama's speech to the AIPAC, makes it perfectly clear that Mr Bush's policy on Palestine and the Middle East will be safe in his hands. The rhetoric is already changing, you lefties have been hooked, you don't matter any more....now it's blue collar America, working class Conservatives, Southern racists....the whole ensemble. By the time Mr Obama reaches the White House....if he does, his soul will certainly be the property of the Devil....Ake |
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05 Jun 08 - 07:30 AM (#2358103) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Ron Davies Simmer down, Ake. If you don't think Obama is huge progress for the US, and a rather better choice for the fall than McCain-- who will be elected if Obama is not-- you need to do a bit more reading. |
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05 Jun 08 - 07:40 AM (#2358113) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: McGrath of Harlow Islam and Judaism are passed on by birth That's not in line with what I've read, so far as Islam is concerned. Of course the Islamic scholars who've been quoted in this context may be out of line with mainstream Islam on this. |
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05 Jun 08 - 07:43 AM (#2358117) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Ron Davies Re: topic: My respect for Obama continues to grow. His camp is squelching rumors of Hillary as VP. Good thing. She would bring nothing but trouble to the ticket. Her role needs to be to start breaking her supporters in to the fact that her campaign is over. Then she needs to start pushing--hard--to get those same supporters to get behind Obama. It should be an easy sell--they are close to identical on the issues, and his campaign, in contrast to hers, tried to stay positive as much as possible. If she ever wants any kind of political future beyond NY Senator, she has to break her neck to try to get him elected. Now. |
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05 Jun 08 - 08:05 AM (#2358131) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: kendall Ron, you are right. Too many people see her as a foul mouthed vindictive witch. (Yes all you Wicca, I know what a witch really is) |
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05 Jun 08 - 08:07 AM (#2358135) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Ron Davies Also: "No anti-war candidate has ever won the White House". Not precisely. Wilson in 1916 had as his main slogan: "He kept us out of war". You can say he was already in office. But it was primarily his anti-war appeal which re-elected him--in a very close election. That war was already in progress. As is the Iraq war. |
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05 Jun 08 - 08:08 AM (#2358136) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Riginslinger "If she ever wants any kind of political future beyond NY Senator,..." Which would be what, now that she's been squeezed out of the nomination? |
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05 Jun 08 - 08:41 AM (#2358171) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: McGrath of Harlow Presidential candidate next time if Obama doesn't win. Or the time after that perhaps if he does. |
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05 Jun 08 - 09:18 AM (#2358209) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Ebbie So, I am an Amish person? Just not a practicing one? Amazing. |
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05 Jun 08 - 10:24 AM (#2358257) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Bobert One of the principles that this country was founded on was freedom to "practice" whatever religion one wants to "practice"... The entire concept of "practicing" implies that thes freedom is based on a transcient verb, meaning that one must actually make some effort to "do" something... It's beyond my comprehension that anyone who believes in the peremise that Americans have the freedom to practice a religion oif their choice can make any statement that narrows that freedom... In other words, to brand anyone newborn as a Catholic, a Jew , a Christain, or whatever, is inherently un-American... And given the nature of a post 9/11 world is nothing but a cheap and juvenilistic endeavor... B~ |
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05 Jun 08 - 10:36 AM (#2358270) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Riginslinger The real problem is, they keep practicing and practicing, are they ever going to get it right? |
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05 Jun 08 - 11:36 AM (#2358313) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Bobert Good question, Rigs, and one that has been asked in many a sermon... |
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05 Jun 08 - 01:34 PM (#2358468) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: kendall Wilson was a sitting president.There is a difference. |
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05 Jun 08 - 02:12 PM (#2358505) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: McGrath of Harlow Talking in terms of "the principles that this country was founded on" isn't really relevant in this context. Important, but not relevant. What is relevant here is religious law, not civil law. And I still haven't been able to find any indication that Islamic religious law regards religion as a matter of heredity, any more than is the case for religious law in any Christian denomination. |
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05 Jun 08 - 11:54 PM (#2359010) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Ron Davies Hillary was "forced out" by her own incompetence---running a disastrous campaign. We'll detail the aspects later--since some of her fans don't seem to realize there was no conspiracy--except in their lively imaginations. Interesting how for some people their entire world is run by absurd conspiracies--if it's not the Mexicans, it's religion, or "the media" or...or...or It's so neat--relieves them of thinking at all. As to what she can do now: 1) possibly majority leader--eventually--not for a while 2) become power in health care legislation 3) possibly Supreme Court But none of that will be remotely possible unless she breaks her neck to try to elect Obama first. Right now. |
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06 Jun 08 - 12:39 AM (#2359029) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: mg How could you appoint someone with either honesty issues or delusional mentality, remember Travel office, missing documents, FBI files, etc....with a husband with very questionable international ties, to Supreme COurt. What a stretch of the imagination. mg |
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06 Jun 08 - 06:20 AM (#2359155) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: John MacKenzie Terry where are you? |
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06 Jun 08 - 07:42 AM (#2359197) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Bobert Latest word is that Obama pulled off a late night meeting with Hillary last night... According to MSNBC he even tricked the press by telling them to be on his plane at such-a-such time and then having the plane take off without him on board... Not too sure what came outta the meeting but it shows me that Obama has a few tricks up his sleeve... B~ |
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06 Jun 08 - 09:39 AM (#2359307) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: pdq "...it shows me that Obama has a few tricks up his sleeve..." That is what the vast majority of Americans are afraid of. (McCain 62%, Obama 34%, others 4%). Good times ahead. *smile* |
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06 Jun 08 - 09:58 AM (#2359321) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: MarkS Obama is no muslim by our standards. He can practice any religion he likes and we think nothing of it. But - and a big but - by the standards of other fundamental muslims he is indeed muslim having inherited his faith from his father. Not an issue for us, but could be a complication should he meet and deal with leadership from fundamental moslem states. By their standards they would feel like they are dealing with an apostate. Mark |
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06 Jun 08 - 10:01 AM (#2359326) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Amos PDQ: Did you pull those numbers out of your butt? Or just make them up? I don't think you have any idea what the majorioty of Americans think, and speaking for them without knowing what you are talking about is not a noble thing to do. A |
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06 Jun 08 - 10:16 AM (#2359346) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: pdq "by the standards of other fundamental muslims he is indeed muslim having inherited his faith from his father" Yes, and the punishment for a Muslim who does not follow his faith is rather severe in some circles: death. There are Moslim leaders in every Islamic country he would visit who would feel justified in ordering that such punishment be carried out. |
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06 Jun 08 - 11:01 AM (#2359389) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: McGrath of Harlow I think this idea about Islam as a matter of heredity must come from an analogy with the situation as regards Jews, where it would have some validity. No doubt there are some Muslims who believe it to be the case, but the evidence seems to be that they out of step with mainstream Islamic religious laws. There is some doubt whether Obama's father was in fact a Muslim, though his grandfather was. |
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06 Jun 08 - 11:03 AM (#2359391) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Alice CNN reporting that John Edwards has said "no" to being V.Pres. |
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06 Jun 08 - 12:42 PM (#2359469) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Amos wHAT IS THIS OBSESSION OF TRYING TO MAKE THE OPINION--GUESSED AT, WITHOUT HARD SURVEY OR EVIDENCE -- OF SOME x NUMBER OF IMAGINARY mUSLIMS AROUND THE WORLD -- CONSTITUTE A fact of any bearing in the United States??? Why would you lend any credence to such a bizarre notion, much less grant it any merit in this domain? It has none whatsoever. Sorry about the capslock error. A |
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06 Jun 08 - 01:23 PM (#2359490) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Little Hawk pdq, Obama was born to a White mother and a Black father. What does that make him? Does it make him "Black". Why? Does it make him "White"? Why? He was born to a Muslim father and (I presume) a non-Muslim mother. What does that make him? He was brought up by some Christian people wasn't he? What does that make him? While all of these things may be considered part of Barack Obama's background, none of them make him what he is today, because what he is today is a free human being who decides for himself what he wants to be. Just like you or me. We decide for ourselves. It doesn't make any difference who you were born to, because ultimately YOU decide who you ARE. And if anyone says differently, then they are not talking about Barack Obama, they are talking about their own fossilized mental conditioning which is their own frikkin' problem, not Barack Obama's. He's human. And that's it, period. And that, plus the fact that he's American, seems to have been his fervently stated message from the very beginning of the campaign....but the mentally ill society that is existing all around him cannot seem to see people as just humans or just Americans! No. It must divide them up into Black & White, Christian and non-Christian, Democrat and Republican, "conservative" and "liberal", etc.... This addiction to dividing people up into irreconcilable opposites is exactly what is WRONG with your society, and all the most destructive forces in your society pander to it constantly in the media and use it to drive wedges between people and manipulate events. Do I think a majority of your citizens are self-aware enough to stop falling for that kind of manipulation? No, sadly, I do not. But I would love to be proven wrong in that regard, I must say. |
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06 Jun 08 - 01:28 PM (#2359491) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Peace I have never known the religious affiliation of anyone I ever voted for. Nor have I ever cared. |
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06 Jun 08 - 01:37 PM (#2359497) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Riginslinger "He was born to a Muslim father and (I presume) a non-Muslim mother. What does that make him? He was brought up by some Christian people wasn't he? What does that make him?" A Unitarian Universalist? |
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06 Jun 08 - 01:59 PM (#2359517) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Amos A transcendant AGent of the Universe? ;>) A |
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06 Jun 08 - 02:27 PM (#2359530) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: pdq Liberal Hawk, I have said this several times: I do not give a rat's ass what religion Obama practices. I do find it rude to call people "stupid" or "ignorant" when they point out the fact that most Muslims consider him to be one of theirs by birth. I do not make rules for the followers of Islam, and actually, neither do they. You and I believe in free will and all that good Western cultural stuff, they do not. What Obama is, as Joe Offer pointed out on another thread, is a matter of opinion. People who express an opinion that differs from one's own suould not automatically be considered "evil", "wrong", "ignorant" or "stupid". |
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06 Jun 08 - 02:31 PM (#2359532) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: beardedbruce PDQ,, You state " People who express an opinion that differs from one's own should not automatically be considered "evil", "wrong", "ignorant" or "stupid". " This is in fundemental violation of the Mudcat Code of Conduct. If you continue in this prohibited behaviour Steps Will Be Taken. |
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06 Jun 08 - 02:38 PM (#2359535) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: pdq " Steps Will Be Taken" Ah, I hear footprints approaching on horseback right now! |
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06 Jun 08 - 02:52 PM (#2359547) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: McGrath of Harlow ...the fact that most Muslims consider him to be one of theirs by birth. I do not make rules for the followers of Islam, That is very open to question. A number of very knowledgeable Islamic sharia jurists have judged that not to be the case. Moreover the very assumption that Barack's father was a Muslim is also open to question. Auma Obama,one of Barack's half sisters: ""His [Barack's] father was never a Muslim although he was born into a Muslim family with a Muslim name." From a Guardian writer who has been meeting with members of Obama's family |
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06 Jun 08 - 02:55 PM (#2359552) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Peace Right. I want to be born to Muslim parents and then convert to Catholicism. |
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06 Jun 08 - 03:25 PM (#2359567) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Little Hawk "You and I believe in free will and all that good Western cultural stuff, they do not." Bullshit. That's a facile assumption on your part, pdq, and one that I know is in gross error. I'll tell you why. I have known many Muslims in the last 40 years of my life, and I never met one yet that did not believe in free will. They believe in it just as much as you or I do. They thirst for democracy too...real democracy, I mean. But...like other people they tend to do the Polly-Parrot thing. They repeat things they have heard other people say all their lives, and they don't actually know why. This is true of people in all cultures, not just Muslims. There are silly things that they all take for granted, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with their lack of belief in free will. Every human being believes implicitly in his own free will and longs to express it. It's basic to human nature. When people don't express their free will it's because they are afraid. Afraid of what others will think! Or say! Or do. You have asked a sucker question of some Islamic people you know, a set-up question crafted to illicit a Polly-Parrot response, and they have given you the Polly-Parrot answer that they take for granted. That proves nothing about whether or not Barack Obama is a Muslim, it just proves that people find it hard to think outside their accustomed cultural box. This is also true of Americans who are not Muslims. You have your cultural mythology too, and it's equally out of touch with the actual reality and the genuine workings of an uninhibited free will. |
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06 Jun 08 - 04:07 PM (#2359589) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Amos FOr the purposes of this country, this election, this little corner of humanity, PDQ, he is only and wholly what he says he is. If fifty million Muslims want to say he is a Muslim, from Bangkok to Marrakech and back, it is their problem, and their business; it no more makes him one for any purpose of the present discussion about the US election, then it would make you a fallen evil soul if every Baptist in the world ganged up to declare it so. In this nation, and in all discussion relevant tot his election, he is, as he defines himself, a Christian. A |
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06 Jun 08 - 04:27 PM (#2359599) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Bobert Webster "faith, n, 1. A confident belief in the truth, value or trustworthiness of a person, idea or thing..." Simply put, people are not born with belief systems in place... Simply put, part B, if people are not born with belief systems in place then it is impossible for them to born of any faith... Simply put, Part 3, faith is not inherited... Simply put, part 4, only someone without faith could possibly think that faith can be inherited... B~ (one of "faith") |
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06 Jun 08 - 04:52 PM (#2359623) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: pdq For you, Liberal Hawk, to say that a few Muslims you know in a free country were they are less than 1% represent the group as a whole is quite absurd. In a Moslem-dominated country, people will wear what they are told to wear, say what they are expected to say and do what Islam tells them to do. "Islam" means "submission", as in submit to it's rules or face consequences. That means death to some. Sqawk all you want but the majority of the world's Muslims, as expressed by Muslim spokesmen, say the Obama's father was a practicing Muslim and therefore Obama is a Muslim by birth. That opinion is not mine and, for the last time, I don't give a fucking rat's ass what Obama believes. I don't plan to vote for him for many reason, but race and religion aren't even a factor. Some here insist that his birth into the Moslem religion is so important that it must be denied have to do some explaining. I don't fucking care, and don't call people who agree with the majority of the world's Moslem ignorant. |
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06 Jun 08 - 05:12 PM (#2359645) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: McGrath of Harlow "Islam" means "submission", - to the will of God. Christians are supposed to go in for that too. ............................. You keep on saying "his birth into the Moslem religion", pdq - but it doesn't to work like that according to Islamic law. You have to formally say that you believe there is only one God and that Mohammed is his prophet. And anyway Obama's half sister has gone on record as saying that their father was not a Muslim. |
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06 Jun 08 - 05:20 PM (#2359651) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: GUEST,TIA When in doubt, ask Snopes. Here is their research into Obama's "muslim" heritage. http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp |
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06 Jun 08 - 05:22 PM (#2359653) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: irishenglish In a Moslem-dominated country, people will wear what they are told to wear, say what they are expected to say and do what Islam tells them to do. "Islam" means "submission", as in submit to it's rules or face consequences. That means death to some. That's sure a generalization if I ever heard one pdq. Are they told what they are supposed to wear in Tunisia? How about Egypt? Iraq? Jordan? Indonesia? You get the point. Your statement implies every Muslim dominated country in the world has those rules. Where do you come up with this shit? |
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06 Jun 08 - 05:28 PM (#2359659) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Bobert Rush Limbaugh??? |
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06 Jun 08 - 05:36 PM (#2359660) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: irishenglish If not Limbaugh, then one of the others of the same ilk. |
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06 Jun 08 - 05:40 PM (#2359663) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: pdq I have friends who lived in Iran some years back. They liked to wear Western casual clothes, were clean-shaven and liked to go to the Disco. If you do that now in Iran, you risk violence. What I said is quit correct, although the extent of opression by the Imams is less in some Moslem-dominated countries than in others. Drinking, drugs, your sex lie, the friends you keep, the clothes you wear, the food you eat, even your haircut can get you in trouble. Obama can reject his birth into Islam and all of us (including myself) will accept that. In Iran, rejecting Islam in public can get you killed. |
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06 Jun 08 - 05:44 PM (#2359666) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Little Hawk In America, pdq, people also wear what they are told to wear, say what they are expected to say and do what their society tells them to do. They conform. They conform massively and predictably to the cultural messages they are given over their TV and mass media and in their schools. This is true of 99% of the population. People conform because their are afraid of what other people would think about them if they didn't! And their conformity to American cultural values seems just as ridiculous to people in other cultures as the conformity of people in other cultures to their accustomed values seems to you. But you don't see it in your own case, because you have taken it for granted all your life. The same is true of Muslims in Muslim countries. One has to step outside the box of one's own culture to become a truly free human being who thinks independently. Few people ever do. Your chauvinism toward Muslims (as a group) is matched by theirs toward you, and it seems to me like you are the mirror image of each other in that respect. If there is a war between such people, it is driven by chauvinism and ignorance of one another on both sides. Barack Obama has attained a degree of wisdom, because he grew up in at least 2 cultures and 2 racial groups as a boy and he was exposed, therefore, to differing views of things, and in a peaceful way. That broadens a person's perspective, and a broader perspective is exactly what's needed in a head of state or a diplomat. I don't care what religion Barack Obama belongs to either. It's irrelevant. |
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06 Jun 08 - 05:44 PM (#2359667) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Bobert Who here is defending Iran's intolerant society??? (How do you spell "red herring", Bobert???) |
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06 Jun 08 - 05:54 PM (#2359671) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Little Hawk I've noticed that the USA is also a bit intolerant of Iran. And Iraq. And anyone else who gets in the way of certain corporate oil interests. |
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06 Jun 08 - 05:56 PM (#2359673) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: pdq For a reasoned opinion on this point, go back to Joe Offers post of "05 Jun 08 - 02:57 AM": "I'm not well-versed in the legalities of membership in Islam, but I think it could be validly argued that Barack Obama both is and is not a Muslim. That depends on one's perspective - but for fundamentalists, having more than one perspective is anathema." ~ Joe Offer BTW, Liberal Squawk, I hate oppressive behavior in all people, in all countries, and in all situations. Even here on Mudcat. |
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06 Jun 08 - 07:14 PM (#2359711) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: katlaughing For someone who doesn't give a damn, you sure do go on, pdq. |
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06 Jun 08 - 07:19 PM (#2359714) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: pdq Look who continued it! Need a mirror? |
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06 Jun 08 - 07:40 PM (#2359725) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Little Hawk "I hate oppressive behavior in all people, in all countries, and in all situations. Even here on Mudcat." So do I, pdq. We are agreed on that, and you should know that I have defended Mudcat's few conservatives, including yourself, from unfair attacks by the "liberal" crowd here on a number of occasions. I just don't think you happen to have a valid point this time. |
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06 Jun 08 - 08:04 PM (#2359734) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: pdq "I have defended Mudcat's few conservatives, including yourself..." Thanks but no thanks, really. As with most people my opinions need to be respected on their individual merit. Most people I know respect the right to own a gun, say what they want on most subjects, hate abortion, hate government intrusion in their live, and do not want to pay any more taxes than they needed to run the governemnt. To claim that those views belong to one group is absurd. Most people who actually think will have diverse opinions an many subjests. I reject your "lumping" people into groups. That make it so convenient when it comes time to dismiss them. Thanks anyway. |
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06 Jun 08 - 08:17 PM (#2359742) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Little Hawk You're making my own point for me, pdq. I have defended people here on the basis of their individual thoughts, not on the basis of whether they are seen in this or that group ("liberal" or "conservative") by most people here. I'm not a "liberal", I'm a radical. I respect the right to own a gun, the right to say what you want on any and all subjects, I do not particularly like the idea of abortion in a general sense (but neither will I decide it for other people because I think that's their decision not mine), I hate government intrusion in my life, and I do not want to pay any more taxes than are needed to run the government (and maintain a reasonable level of health care and normal public services while doing so). I do not belong to any group. I do not belong to any party. I'm an individual, like you said, and individuals have widely diverse opinions. But I do take note of the fact that there are a few people here such as yourself, Bearded Bruce, DougR, Slag, and a couple of others who regularly get ganged up on by many other members here merely because you have what they see as a conservative slant. You get ganged up on unfairly in some cases...and when I see that, I defend you. You know this is so. If you don't know it, then you're in a selective state of denial at the moment because your nose is out of joint over the particular arguments that have arisen in this thread. |
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06 Jun 08 - 08:20 PM (#2359745) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Amos Actually there was a recent article about the youth in Iran who still go to discos and listen to rock music, in complete evasion of the oppressive rules. Here's one Iranian DJ/muiscian who keeps the faith of music over the local rules. "There are many young Iranians -- especially in the provinces -- who genuinely support the country's hard-line leaders. In cities like Qom and Mashhad, even local residents stop and reprimand women whose hijabs do not "sufficiently cover their bodies." Most of them regard Khomeini and Khamanei as iconic figures who are above the law, and everything else. But many others find the social restrictions frustrating and suffocating. Younger women especially have been expressing their exasperation with the Islamic regime. Raha, a Tehran-based young professional, told RFE/RL that "indeed, Iranian women have the right to education and work, but still there are many rules and laws that have turned the women into a half person." "On the surface, it looks like we have the right to education. In reality, however, husbands have the right not to allow their wives to continue their education, and the government and the law take the sides of the husbands," Raha said. "It is written that women have the right to work but, in reality, the husband can take that right away from his wife." Iranian student Kiyan told RFE/RL's Radio Farda that, for him, Khomeini's name is related to war and poverty. "It's very easy to judge what we see here today. It's unemployment, devastation, a failed economy, war with the whole world," Kiyan said. "The foundation of all of these things was formed at the beginning of the Islamic Revolution. I think Mr. Khomeini's responsibility for problems that we face today should not be underestimated." 'Losing Patience' Mohammad said he "couldn't care less about the supreme leader's speeches or warnings." Mohammad insists he is not interested in politics; however, he is "losing" his patience with the political and religious leaders "who are interfering in people's lives and taking away their most basic freedom, such as the freedom to listen to music." It was social restrictions that caused students to spill into the streets throughout Iran in 1999 in the most serious unrest in the country since the Islamic Revolution. There has been an upsurge in student activities and protests in Iranian cities in recent years. In recent months, officials have arrested dozens of leftist student groups whose main slogan is "Freedom and Equality." Radio Farda contributed to this report" (from here.) A |
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06 Jun 08 - 08:32 PM (#2359754) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Little Hawk The ironical thing is that in Iran, just as in the USA, the more conservative and hardline oppressive elements in the government find their strongest support in the rural areas and the small towns, and among more aggressive males, while the progressive elements are far more likely to find their support among large urban populations, young people, particularly young women, and students. And so it has ever been...in any country, in any time. If Ahmadinejad's most fervent supporters in Iran were somehow by magic transformed into Americans, they'd be voting for McCain and urging an ever more "get tough with Iran" policy... ;-) Same problem on both sides of the fence, in fact. The fanatics and soreheads are in control of the process. |
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06 Jun 08 - 09:07 PM (#2359779) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: kendall George Bush is the worst president ever. John McCain is of the same ilk, that is, endless war, anti choice, and high prices due to the value of the dollar that is caused by deficit spending in the trillions. Obama is not a Muslim. He is an avowed Christian. If he had switched religions, he would have been killed before now. What his pastor said is on his pastor, not him. My own brother is a homophobe; does that mean I should disavow him? Am I responsible for what he says? Especially if I wasn't even present when he said it? As usual, we have to settle for whatever the parties hand us, and as far as I'm concerned, Obama is the lesser of two evils.He will do the least damage.Will we ever wake up to the fact that both parties are owned by corporate America? Get real. |
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06 Jun 08 - 09:33 PM (#2359796) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Bobert The problem I have with the "conservatives"(haha) here isn't one about differences of opinion... That I can live with... What bothers me is that they don't deal too well with policy debates and spend an inordinate amount of their time and energy parroting personal smear campaigns of the Republican Party... This entire thing about trying to pigeon hole Obama as a Muslim plays to peoples fears from 9/11 on one hand and is not true on the other... Where is the policy discussion??? There isn't one... Then on another thread Obama is being attacked because he bought property from a criminal... Where is the policy discussion??? There isn't one... This goes well beyond right of free thought and speech... I challenged Old Guy (remember him???) a couple years ago to name one policy issue that he thought he could defend Bush on and he choose FEMA and Katrina... Fine, the thread went about 800 posts and was a discussion/debate on an, ahhhhhh, friggin' issue... That was fine... But these personal smear campaign against Obama are nothing more than that... The are not discussions... They are base... They are petty... And they really just demonstrate that the folks who camp out at the smear well don't really have any policy issues that they want to discuss... Fine... That is their right... It's also my right to call them on it... B~ |
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06 Jun 08 - 11:02 PM (#2359834) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Ron Davies Excellent post, Bobert. That's it in a nutshell. Issues are fine. Smearing a person is a bit different from raising issues. Yet that's all Obama's critics on Mudcat seem to be able to do. It raises the suspicion they can't find any actual issues on which to disagree with him. |
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07 Jun 08 - 12:12 AM (#2359855) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: katlaughing No mirror. I have now posted six times to this thread. You have posted fifteen. As I said... |
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07 Jun 08 - 08:32 PM (#2360431) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: bobad Bob Dylan pronounces on Obama: "Well, you know right now America is in a state of upheaval," he says. "Poverty is demoralising. You can't expect people to have the virtue of purity when they are poor. But we've got this guy out there now who is redefining the nature of politics from the ground up...Barack Obama. He's redefining what a politician is, so we'll have to see how things play out. Am I hopeful? Yes, I'm hopeful that things might change. Some things are going to have to." He offers a parting handshake. "You should always take the best from the past, leave the worst back there and go forward into the future," he notes as the door closes between us." |
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07 Jun 08 - 09:10 PM (#2360441) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Amos Wow. If Bob says it, it's gotta be on the money, right?? Right. :D A |
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07 Jun 08 - 09:28 PM (#2360446) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: kendall Well said, Bobert. |
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07 Jun 08 - 10:50 PM (#2360475) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Little Hawk Yes, it is sad indeed. As you say, he should be able to embrace and honor his family's Muslim heritage...but the fact of the matter is, he can't do that if he expects to have any chance of being elected in the USA. It's an unwritten law in American political culture: "Thou shalt be a Christian (at least nominally). Thou shalt not be of any other religions." The implication is that all other religions are heathen and un-American. That's not what I call a genuinely free country. |
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07 Jun 08 - 11:30 PM (#2360488) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Amos I have seen nothing to indicate he has any anti-Muslim leanings. He's just not, religiously, a Muslim, never has been, and isn't going to cater to a bunch of wing-nuts telling him he is. Good for him. A |
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07 Jun 08 - 11:47 PM (#2360493) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Little Hawk He is playing the game because he must Fantasma if he is to have any hope of being elected at all. That is not an idictment of Barack Obama, but of the society he is living in. Now, Dennis Kucinich did not play the game. Neither did Ron Paul. They came out agaisnt the war from the start, voted against it in Congress, and were totally honest about it. You see how far they got with that approach, though I admire them for it. You cannot get elected president if you are wholly truthful with the American public. So there are two choices. 1. Stand on principle and don't get elected, in which case you cannot change things anyway. 2. Play the game and get elected, in which case you might be able to change some things, assuming you have the will to...but the odds against it are long ones indeed. The only thing I'm not clear on is if Obama actually intends to be such an agent of change. He talks as if he wants to. We shall see. |
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08 Jun 08 - 12:17 AM (#2360507) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Amos Ya know, I really don't see the Muslim heritage shtick having any bearing. How much "heritage" is involved? Do you have any real information about his upbringing that says he was the receiver of some Muslim heritage? I certainly have not seen it. Is it possible his "Muslim heritage" is just a fantsy spun out of the perfervid imagination of people who can't think clearly for themselves? Well, of course its possible, but its beginning to look downright probable!! A |
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08 Jun 08 - 08:38 AM (#2360599) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Riginslinger It probably has something to do with his extended association with Louis Farrakhan. |
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08 Jun 08 - 11:00 AM (#2360654) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Amos Rig: Go spit into the wind a bit. You'll feel better. A |
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08 Jun 08 - 05:43 PM (#2360965) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: McGrath of Harlow The rule seems to be that you don't count as a Muslim until at the age of puberty you formally declare that there is no God but God and that Muhammed is his prophet. That's fundamental, as in fundamentalist. Fundamentalists might indeed think that it's a disgrace that the child of a man who was Muslim wasn't brought up so as to make such a declaration and become a Muslim, but that's quite a different matter. |
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08 Jun 08 - 06:54 PM (#2361002) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Ebbie If we accept that Barack Obama is Muslim because his father was (questionable as that statemwent is), I think we also have to accept that barack Obama is an atheist. At least that is what his mother is reported as having been. And surely we wouldn't want to be sexist. |
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08 Jun 08 - 07:44 PM (#2361023) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: McGrath of Harlow Actually it would seem that fundamentalist Muslims and fundamentalist Atheists have the same line on this, which is basically that we are all naturally born set up to be Muslims/Atheists, but that our upbringing and so forth can screw us up so that we never recognise it, and make the necessary commitment to the true belief/unbelief that entitles us, and others to call us Muslims/Atheists. And Barack failed to do so in respect of either of these belief systems. |
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09 Jun 08 - 02:38 AM (#2361156) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Skivee Obama/ Colin Powell Just a thought |
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09 Jun 08 - 09:45 AM (#2361366) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Ebbie Thank you for clearing that up, McGrath. :) |
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09 Jun 08 - 09:58 AM (#2361376) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Little Hawk LOL!!! You got it, McGrath. They all know exactly what everyone else ought to be and ought to believe and they're not shy about saying it. |
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09 Jun 08 - 10:03 AM (#2361381) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Peace Have I mentioned that IMO Obama will be next President of the United States? If not, allow me to make mention. Obama will be next President of the United States. Thank you. |
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09 Jun 08 - 10:12 AM (#2361393) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Kara St. Peter is at the Pearly Gates checking up on the people waiting to enter Heaven. He asks the next one in line, "So, who are you, and what did you do on Earth?" The fellow says, "I'm Barack Obama, and I was the first black to be elected President of the United States " St. Peter says, "The U.S.? A black President? You gotta be kidding me! When did this happen?" And Obama says, "About twenty minutes ago." |
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09 Jun 08 - 10:19 AM (#2361398) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: kendall LOL |
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09 Jun 08 - 10:45 AM (#2361419) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Amos Grim, grim... A |
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09 Jun 08 - 10:50 AM (#2361427) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Bill D I'd sure prefer that no one told those kind of jokes....and that 'speculation' of that sort would be kept quiet. Fat chance, huh? |
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09 Jun 08 - 11:30 AM (#2361476) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Ebbie I agree with you, Bill. |
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09 Jun 08 - 02:40 PM (#2361632) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: McGrath of Harlow I can't see that jokes and speculation in any way make it more likely to happen. Or less likely. It's as well to appreciate that in running for President, Obama has in a real sense put himself in the firing line, and must have known that - in the same way that Bobby Kennedy must always have known there was a real chance of a second Kennedy assassination. It takes guts to do that. That doesn't mean assuming it's going to happen, in a fatalistic way, but obviously it's a possibility. |
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09 Jun 08 - 03:58 PM (#2361705) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Riginslinger Speaking of that, was anybody ever able to come up with a motive for that Sirhan Sirhan character? |
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10 Jun 08 - 01:20 AM (#2362047) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: DougR Obama and Hillary? Come on, Obama may not be the brightest bulb in the Democrat Party, but he's not that dim. DougR |
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10 Jun 08 - 01:28 AM (#2362052) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Wow!! The measure of a good candidate....'Come on, Obama may not be the brightest bulb in the Democrat Party, but he's not that dim.'..Sure got me exited!!! |
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10 Jun 08 - 01:41 AM (#2362056) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: GUEST,,Guest from Sanity By the way..I was being facetious. Wasn't too sure if you got it, being as you might be the next to the dimmest bulb....... |
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10 Jun 08 - 07:58 AM (#2362183) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: kendall Bill, I like black humor. So, I'm sick. As I understand it, Ringslinger, Sirhan shot Kennedy because he had made some statement in support of Israel. |
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10 Jun 08 - 12:02 PM (#2362372) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Donuel There are some inner circles that speak of William Cohen as a good running mate. The Popular views are Edwards or Clinton. I on the other hand think a good life insurance for Barack might be a Dave Chappel or Lewis Black. |
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10 Jun 08 - 12:06 PM (#2362377) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Little Hawk Every American politician makes statements in support of Israel. It's one of the required rites of passage for those who wish to be elected in the USA. Therefore Sirhan, by the going theory, could have shot any one of them. It's a shame he picked Bobby Kennedy, isn't it? |
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10 Jun 08 - 12:08 PM (#2362378) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Donuel The new movie 'Bobby' has a great speech by RFK at the end. I will attempt to memorize it. |
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10 Jun 08 - 12:47 PM (#2362404) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Bill D 'Black humor' on some relatively neutral subjects can be clever and funny. I just don't care for 'light' views in a ***PUBLIC*** forum about some things. Whether it increases probability or not, it feels 'wrong'...to me. Tell those jokes person-to-person, if at all. (not that my opinion will change anything) |
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20 Jun 08 - 01:24 AM (#2370453) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Ebbie Rep. Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick, D-Mich., who leads the Congressional Black Caucus, said: "I asked them what type of person the senator is looking for? And they said in general someone who could help him rebuild the country ... talking about change. How we reinvest in America, get people back to work and reinforce our education system and bring the jobs back," That works for me. |
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20 Jun 08 - 01:38 AM (#2370456) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: mg If foreign policy is strong elsewhere, which I presume it would be..I want a farmer. Schweitzer of Montana they say is an irrigation expert. Wouldn't that be nice in dealing with the Middle East situation, which is water as much as anything else. I like the idea of Sebelius,from a farm state..Edwards is very compatable but I would rather him for AG. Again, I want General Honore there somewhere...can we plan somehow for these multiple disasters? Can we rebuild not out of twigs and cardboard, high enough for floods, strong enough for hurricanes, sturdy against fire and mold...can we train our youth to be useful in skills that are needed..a few more electricians? Mechanics? Nurses? mg |
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20 Jun 08 - 08:06 AM (#2370603) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: McGrath of Harlow Jimmy Carter would be a great Vice President. But I don't suppose he'd help get Obama elected, so he's out. |
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20 Jun 08 - 09:29 AM (#2370660) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Ebbie Sam Nunn is also on the list. I remember him from way back and there were a lot of good things. Here are a couple of linked paragraphs: "He has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize multiple times for his work to increase global security and decrease nuclear, biological and chemical threats. He received the Hessian Peace Price in 2008 for his efforts towards nuclear disarmament and for combating nuclear terrorism." "Many are saying that if Obama doesn't pick Nunn than he needs to pick someone like Nunn. The qualities he would bring to the ticket include national security credentials, an area of weakness for Obama. He is currently serving on Obama's foreign policy advisory group. The negatives for Nunn as a running mate include that he's been out of office for over ten years. He's a conservative democrat in contrast to Obama's far left leanings. Nunn has generally been diametrically opposite than Obama on issues. For instance, he supported prayer in school and opposed gays in the military." ? http://www.rightpundits.com/?p=1623 |
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20 Jun 08 - 10:56 PM (#2371193) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Ron Davies If not Nunn, how about Webb? |
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21 Jun 08 - 12:41 AM (#2371225) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: mg Webb supposedly has written something in a novel, which, if true, would make him such a lightning rod for controversy...if true, it is highly offensive to almost everyone. mg |
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21 Jun 08 - 01:51 AM (#2371241) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Amos Te biggest criterion is someone with whom Barack can work closely, and on whom he can rely without question, and who is ready to roll up his sleeves and sweat for eight years. There is a remarkable amount of work to do. A |
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21 Jun 08 - 09:44 AM (#2371390) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Ebbie "He has written six best-selling novels from 1978 to 2001, his Web site says. His writings have largely focused on war and military storylines, influenced by things he experienced. "The first quote describes a shirtless man picking up a naked boy who runs toward him. The book describes what happens after the man picks up the boy and turns him upside down. It comes from the 2001 book "Lost Soldiers." "Webb responded Friday morning on Washington Post radio. "Let me explain what that was," he said. "I actually saw this happen in a slum of Bangkok and when I was there as a journalist. A man placing his lips on his son's private parts. ... And the duty of a writer is to illuminate the surroundings. "There is nothing that's been in any of my novels that, in my view, hasn't been either illuminating surroundings or defining a character or moving a plot," Webb said. "He added that he has "strong female characters" in his writings -- rejecting LaCivita's assertion that Webb's books portray women as "servile, subordinate and promiscuous." "The Allen campaign included several passages aimed at supporting that argument, including graphic sexual depictions and a quote from the 1981 book "A Sense of Honor," describing the character "Nurse Goodbody" as "a bedtime friend to many of the doctors in Bethesda" who had hinted "that she simply could not contain herself." "Webb told Washington Post radio that to pull excerpts from his writings "and force them on people, sort of, like pound them over the head with them," rather than having someone read the entire book "is just a classic example of the way this [Allen] campaign has worked. And you know, it's smear after smear." "This is a Karl Rove campaign," Webb said, referring to President Bush's chief political strategist. "We have known this one was coming for quite some time." Jim Webb, Novelist |
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21 Jun 08 - 11:41 AM (#2371435) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Ron Davies Anybody who thinks Webb endorses what he has written about in some of his novels should think again. As Ebbie notes, Webb saw himself as something of a reporter--and he had seen that revolting scene. Are reporters only to write on pleasant developments? How many do now? And if he is to be lynched for having written something about 30 years ago about how women can't fight--a subject on which he has changed his view--that's not reasonable either. No potential VP selection will be perfect. He describes himself as a "redneck", occasionally carries a concealed pistol, and says poor whites are an "oppressed class". He can appeal to exactly the constituency McCain would most strongly appeal to. With his 2 purple hearts, having pushed the recent GI bill for veterans, and being from the potential swing state of Virginia, he has many assets for Obama. I would hope women would realize the crucial aspect of all this is the views of the person at the top of the ticket, not the VP. In fact that's the main issue--would Webb have any influence on potential McCain voters at all? He still might swing some Virginia voters--and turning Virginia blue seems to be within reach, especially with the electoral center of gravity continuing to shift towards Northern Virginia, as the population there increases. |
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21 Jun 08 - 12:39 PM (#2371463) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Bobert Believe me, Webb can take care of himself... He may congess to having some feminine writing qualities but I don't think there is another Senator who'd want to go 5 rounds with Webb behind the barn... He comes accross as a very tough... When George Bush asked Webb how his son was Webb shot back something to the effect that it was none of Bush's business... Yeah, I'd love to see the Swiftboaters go after Jim Webb... He would do what Kerry didn't do... He'd call 'um all friggin' liars and challenge each and every one of them to say to his face what they cowardly are saying in front of a camera... Yeah, the more I think about Jim Webb, the more I like the idea of him playing the role of Obama's pet bit bull... Bring it on... |
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22 Jun 08 - 12:45 PM (#2371923) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Donuel Bill D Your personal verbal rules of ettiquet forbidding the reterating of black/Negro humor reminds of the politically correct people 30 years ago who insisted that WHITE people should under no circumstance repeat jokes by black humorists including Bill Cosby and other clever commentators "who happen to be black". "lol" Whatever harm that may come from misunderstading among peoples who have endured great strife as a result of ethnic bias and predjudice, I believe that we all can share and repeat the words and ideas of all people - especaily when it humorously outlines the awful truth of the human condition. To stand only upon the shoulders of your own race, color and creed is an antiquated and dihescent notion. Object if you must but be objective enough to realize that artificial boundaries of communication based on the race of the speaker is absurd and in the ling view cause more harm than good. Bill I am sure you had other intentions by your objection to black humor yet I am equally confident that you understand my belief in the universal power of truth especially when conveyed by humor. haruumph harummph, mild applause...muffled tittering. |
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22 Jun 08 - 12:46 PM (#2371927) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Donuel typo correction : regarding the 'reinterating' |
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22 Jun 08 - 08:16 PM (#2372201) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Ron Davies Webb would be a very good choice for many reasons, one perhaps above all. He calls himself a redneck who feels poor whites are an oppressed class. Picking him as VP would indicate that somebody with those attitudes is comfortable with Obama--and that Obama is comfortable with him. Webb also has a very good record with NARAL--which Kaine, another possible Virginia choice, does not. |
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23 Jun 08 - 03:51 PM (#2372708) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: GUEST,mg That is very important to undisenfranchise the poor of all races. he does not seem to match Obama though..I could see him somewhere else..defense, etc. Richardson does not match. I think Edwards matches, and would probably be the safest choice. I think Sebelius matches and would free up Edwards for AG, which would probably be a better use of his skills. I really want someone who knows farming and energy. That would probably be Schweitzer. Sebelius vetoed a clean coal plant for her state...not sure I approve. SHe is my most instinctive choice. Webb for defense, Biden perhaps something...I don't think sec. state...maybe Richardson sec. state..don't know... The bad news is we have lost our manufacturing somewhat..the good news is that we still have farmland..it needs zoning, diking, protection etc. We have unemployed people. We have farms who can not hire enough workers seasonally. Like gee..we have students. We need dormitories for them and clean facilities and transportation. Yes We CAN grow food again..and animals in good husbandry conditions. We can drink milk again and have grass fed goats and cows. I cut enough grass that could keep a goat for six months I bet out of just my yard. ...mg |
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23 Jun 08 - 05:02 PM (#2372764) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: DougR GUEST, Guest from sanity: aw shucks, now you done gone and hurt my feelings. How about Sean Penn, Alec Baldwin, Jane Fonda or Whoopie for a running mate? If he chose Whoopie for his potential vp candidate and if elected, they would be the first Black president, vice-president and woman elected! Worth thinking about. DougR |
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23 Jun 08 - 10:43 PM (#2372964) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Ron Davies Hey Doug, rather than let your imagination run wild on the Democratic ticket, how about Jindal for McCain's VP? Or Bloomberg? Any strong feelings about either of these? Or even weak feelings? |
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24 Jun 08 - 02:22 PM (#2373422) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Little Hawk The inspired choice for McCain would be Condoleeza Rice, in my opinion. Now that's a ticket I could vote against with real gusto, by golly! |
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24 Jun 08 - 03:51 PM (#2373477) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Amos Oooomy yes!! With Dick Cheny as their campaign manager, they can't go wrong (because they're so Right!). A |
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24 Jun 08 - 04:23 PM (#2373501) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Little Hawk ...and soon there would be nothing much Left in the country to get upset about. Maybe nothing much left anywhere else either. A clean sweep. |
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08 Jul 08 - 11:38 AM (#2383823) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: rehab13 I have a label because my mom thought I had to have one to get in school. Pop said ok there is a church down the street get him to put water on her head there.It was between the Bay and Eaton's in Montreal. Maybe that is why I love to window shop.. ha ha pop loved the bible but but but he thought there was alot missing in the book. but it worked he said, for some .....Hawk I have been saying for a longtime WHAT If the guys who put up the money to print the bible were alot like Bush and the big C {cancer]and took out what they did not like put in what they did.I think they Knew that most people do not think too much. Pop said city people were like sheep .... and the last thing they would do is be responsible for anything but bible says Thou mayst SO make your bed and instead of lieing in it quick find someone to BLAME HA HA HAWK YOU ARE RIGHT WE ARE AS FREE AS WE WANT TO BE. I say there is a price for everything must be willing to pay it,but hell we are not getting out of here alive. haha It is all ok Bob Dylan told us God's on our side and we will have to serve somebody I will serve God and my personal truth. " bible did not save me much did it mostly by myself" great writer wrote that dee |
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08 Jul 08 - 10:44 PM (#2384338) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Riginslinger "If the guys who put up the money to print the bible were alot like Bush and the big C..." That's an interesting concept. I've never much thought about the people who put up money to print the Bible. |
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09 Jul 08 - 02:58 PM (#2384958) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: rehab13 Yes and the great writer was Peace |
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09 Jul 08 - 04:14 PM (#2385050) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Riginslinger I didn't realize Peace had written the Bible. You've got to wonder if King James paid the proper royalties. |
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09 Jul 08 - 06:54 PM (#2385223) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Ebbie It just occurs to me that the best fit for Obama is Joe Biden. Lots of reasons but tops among them is his knowledge and familiarity with foreign policy. Because of the process of presidential campaigning he is already well vetted. Not likely to be many unexamined skeletons in his closet. He also has experience with domestic affairs and has been effective on many fronts. From his website: "Over the last thirty-four years, Senator Biden has shown prescience and leadership on the most critical issues facing Delaware and our country. From his instrumental role in passing the bipartisan initiative to create a Commission on Civil Rights in 1983, to introducing the 1986 Global Climate Protection Act, to establishing an annual National Mammography Awareness Day, and to authoring the Rail Security Act of 2007 to regulate the transportation of hazardous materials on American railways, Senator Biden consistently works to tackle America's toughest challenges." His age is also a plus for Obama. Old enough to offset Obama's comparative youth, young enough to be in stark contrast with McCain. |
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10 Jul 08 - 06:48 AM (#2385532) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Ron Davies It appears Webb has taken his name off the list. What about Nunn? Any strong feelings against him? It seems evident, as Ebbie notes, that Obama needs someone to beef up the ticket on foreign policy and military issues. I've also read that the only major piece of legislation with Obama's name on it so far is the Lugar-Obama Initiative--which supports Lugar (and Nunn) in the push to destroy loose nuclear material in the former Soviet Union-- an issue which is in fact the greatest security threat in the world. Nunn now "chairs the Nuclear Threat Insitute". Lugar is evidently unacceptable because of his generally conservative voting record, including anti-abortion stands. Nunn is pro-choice and strong on the environment, and opposed the Iraq war from the start. Nunn supported "Don't ask, don't tell", which he now says he would "review"--and he says "I'm grateful to the thousands of gays and lesbians serving today." If nominated he would have to quit the Augusta National Golf Club since it does not admit women. But it seems these hurdles could be overcome--and Nunn would bring much to the ticket--even more than Biden. |
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10 Jul 08 - 08:14 AM (#2385573) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Ron Davies "Institute" |
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10 Jul 08 - 08:31 AM (#2385589) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Bobert 200??? |
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23 Aug 08 - 07:48 AM (#2420596) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Bobert Ahhhhhhhhh, Biden???? B;~) |
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23 Aug 08 - 08:04 AM (#2420598) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: SharonA Good guess, Boberzz! :-D |
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23 Aug 08 - 09:24 AM (#2420627) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Riginslinger It looks like they're headed for the last roundup now! |
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23 Aug 08 - 03:52 PM (#2420830) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/Biden '08!!! From: Genie Now we know - it's JOE!! :D |
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24 Aug 08 - 03:57 PM (#2421343) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: kendall pdq and anyone else who still follows this thread, Under Jewish tradition, ones MOTHER is the deciding factor in what you are. Why? I suppose because ones Father can always be called into question. Also, I couldn't care less what Muslims think in this matter. In this country, one decides for himself what he/she is.If he were running for president of Iran they would have a case. |
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24 Aug 08 - 04:42 PM (#2421382) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Amos The country will come out a hrelluva lot better, if Barack and Joe win, Jayjay,. than if mcCain does. The differences will be felt. Make no mistake. A |
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25 Aug 08 - 03:52 PM (#2421954) Subject: RE: BS: Obama/____________ '08??? From: Donuel Supposing that the below average American can hold a maximum of two things in their mind at any given time... For Abortions and Muslims - Barak Hussein binLaden For Patriotism and the Troops - John McCain |