Seeking tune for original lyrics

19 Jun 08 - 09:53 PM (#2370386)
Subject: Lyr Add: DECIDUOUS LIVES (Maureen Parrott)
From: semi-submersible

Fitting new words to an existing song isn't too difficult. But I've done things backwards this time. I've put down in verse some thoughts that I'd like to share, but not merely as a poem. I would like to find a powerful melody, on which these thoughts might travel. Help, anyone, to choose a tune, new or old?

Having a fuzzy memory for melody, I can't think of any that could be arranged to fit the rhythm of these lines (4 feet twice, 5, repeat, then triple time like DA-da-da through the chorus) except maybe "Listen to the Music," and that doesn't support the feelings I tried to express. (I was listening to "Stone & Sand & Sea & Sky" when I started writing this last spring, so I'd imagined something with that kind of feeling. Parts of "Dark Day in July" have a similar kind of resonance. When working on this, I butcher "Both Sides Now" for a verse, and use a sort of beating rhythm for the refrain.)

I'd appreciate any suggestions, either for tunes or pointing out where my meaning isn't clear. (Don't worry about my feelings: I'm thick of skin.) I know this piece is too awkward and wordy to go far, but it would be nice to be able actually to sing it, and if anyone else enjoyed it enough to sing it, I'd be delighted. Thanks, anyone who is still reading:


Deciduous Lives

A loved one's life, a withered leaf -
Pain and loss and fear and grief -
Born to bud and grow, and fall and die.
Raised in green and tender youth
To catch the sun and find our truth,
Sweet strength repays the ones who lift us high.

Dance in winds of life and power
Living every gifted hour,
Shine with brightest wisdom near our end.
Wind-torn young, or age-worn leaves
Tumbling, crumbling, memories:
Soil to feed next season's growth again.

(Chorus:)
Leaves decay, forests burn.
Nothing's lost; they'll return.
Ever homeward circling
We give life in our turn.

I would not trade my pain and grief
For safety as a pressed dry leaf
Emotionless and brittle on a page.
Mountains rise and crumble too.
A perfect bloom is one that's new,
Renewing year by year or age by age.

(Cho.)
Leaves decay, forests burn.
Nothing lost; they'll return.
Ever homeward circling
We give life in our turn.



(Am I supposed to say copyright 2008 Maureen Parrott? If anyone wants to use it, go ahead, but please check with me before modifying or making commercial recordings. Hey, I can dream, can't I?)

---

19 Jun 08 - 10:21 PM (#2370395)
Subject: RE: Seeking tune for original lyrics
From: Howard Kaplan

Your longer verses almost, but not quite, fit to the verses of "The Streets of London". Lines 1, 2, 4, and 5 work OK, but you don't have as many syllables in lines 3 and 6 as TSOL does.

Here's an idea I've heard but never tried: start by singing your verses to TSOL (making an adjustment for lines 3 and 6), and then change the melody for one line at a time to something that still fits with the remaining 5 lines. By the time you've done all six lines, you've got something with the same feel as the original but different notes. You're not yet done, but you've got something that can be the basis for further refinement. Once you have that verse melody, you can start thinking about a chorus melody that will work. (I think your chorus word patterns are so far from TSOL's that it's not worth trying to adapt it.)

One last thought: you might like the feel of TSOL enough that you want to add a few syllables to verse lines 3 and 6 to fit that melody better, before you start letting the melody evolve into something else.

---

19 Jun 08 - 10:48 PM (#2370405)
Subject: RE: Seeking tune for original lyrics
From: semi-submersible

Thank you! I found it in the DigiTrad, and it sounds lovely. Any way I could get the dots, or ABC which I could probably transcribe manually?

I'll study it more tonight, anyway, trying your advice first.

Gratefully,
Maureen

---

20 Jun 08 - 01:31 AM (#2370454)
Subject: RE: Seeking tune for original lyrics
From: Genie

You could also fit most of your lines to the tune "The Water Is Wide" and repeat or slightly modify musical lines for your added lyric lines.

Genie

---

20 Jun 08 - 02:55 AM (#2370469)
Subject: RE: Seeking tune for original lyrics
From: Genie

Semi,
I sent you a PM with some suggestions re the verse of your poem.

The name of the song melody that was running through my head for your chorus just now came to me. It's Lorre Wyatt's song "Somos El Barco" - or a slight modulation of that tune's chorus. It fits perfectly with your chorus lyrics.

"The Water Is Wide" fits your verses well (especially with minor modification of a few lines), with the last 2 melodic lines being repeated for your last 2 lyric lines. Then Wyatt's tune or a modification of that would work for the chorus.

Genie

---

20 Jun 08 - 10:11 AM (#2370691)
Subject: RE: Seeking tune for original lyrics
From: semi-submersible

I really appreciate all the suggestions. I know The Water is Wide well enough to see it's a lovely fit for meter and mood too. I've located ABCs for it and Streets of London, but I don't know Somos El Barco. Can you point me toward sheet music or an ABC? Thanks! I've some transcribing and practicing to do now (after seeing to breakfasts and school lunch).

Bye till later.

---

20 Jun 08 - 10:57 AM (#2370734)
Subject: RE: Seeking tune for original lyrics
From: theleveller

Semi, the problem with using well-known tunes is that people know them and will immediately compare your lyrics with the originals or, in their minds, sing along with the originals. I really don't think you'll be doing your song a favour by doing this; much better if you come up with an original tune of your own (give it a try - you may be pleasantly surprised with the result), of find someone who can write a tune for you. The satisfaction of having a totally original song to perform will be immense.

Failing that, search around for a more obscure tune and use that.

---

20 Jun 08 - 11:25 AM (#2370764)
Subject: RE: Seeking tune for original lyrics
From: GUEST,Val

Howard's suggestion of taking a known tune then tweaking it is what I call "chop-shop songwriting". You file off the serial numbers, change the body lines, give it a new coat of paint, and voila! a new song. (Is it coincidence that the theme from the movie "Star Wars" is awfully similar to the theme from the movie "Born Free", except turned upside-down so where the pitch on one goes up, the pitch on the other goes down? Or tweak the rhythm of "Spancil Hill" and you get pretty close to "Gilligan's Island")

This has the advantage of taking a "good" melody (one that you like) and hopefully preserving the elements of rhythm, pitch relations, etc. which make it "good", without having to have a detailed understanding (intellectual or emotional) of those elements. It's a useful shortcut in the craft of songwriting.

It has been said that all tunes are related to some other tune - after all, there are only so many notes, and a finite (if very large) number of ways to arrange them. Very few songwriters can truly say they were not in any way influenced by other tunes they have heard. The trick, though, is to be inspired by those influences but be careful about directly copying them - at least not too much.

Another option, if you play an accompaniment instrument: find a chord progression you like. You already have a sense of the rhythm you want. Start playing the chords & reciting the lyric, and then just decide which note in the chord you want to sing.

Good luck in wooing your muse!

---

20 Jun 08 - 11:40 AM (#2370784)
Subject: RE: Seeking tune for original lyrics
From: theleveller

"after all, there are only so many notes, and a finite (if very large) number of ways to arrange them"

Well, yes, but the same's true with lyrics. When people ask what I do for a living I tell them, I rearrange the letters of the alphabet.

---

20 Jun 08 - 04:51 PM (#2371004)
Subject: RE: Seeking tune for original lyrics
From: Genie

Val makes some excellent points. In fact, as I was singing your poem to the tunes of The Water Is Wide and Somos El Barco, semi-submersible, I was actually modifying the tune -- but I didn't know how to indicate that here in the forum.

Keeping the basic structure of a tune while substantially reworking the melody is actually something very commonly done both in Jazz and in today's pop and "r & b" music.   (I actually find it very annoying a lot of the time, especially when the original meldoy is outstanding and the modulations leave that melody both borderline recognizable and far less memorable.
A case in point is the song "Over The Rainbow." It seems hardly anyone who records it nowadays actually sings Harold Arlen's tune; they just sing something that uses the basic phrasing, and if what they were singing were played instrumentally I'm not sure people would know what song it was but I digress.)

Anyway, what Val suggests is probably the best way to go. Start with something like TWIW and change it up to "make it your own."

Or you could borrow melody lines from different songs and piece them together to make a new melody.

I hope you'll find a way to share your song with us when it's finished.

Genie

---

21 Jun 08 - 10:20 AM (#2371406)
Subject: RE: Seeking tune for original lyrics
From: Phil Edwards

The Water Is Wide and Somos El Barco, semi-submersible

You see some strange things if you skim-read these threads.

Anyway, I think theleveller makes a good point - even if you're not familiar with The Streets of London, it's a fair bet that some of your audience will be. (Remember My Lovely Horse!)

My advice would be to write your own. Shut the door and just talk through the words out loud, giving them the same amount of emphasis you would when singing (but not too much - you don't want to end up like William Shatner). I'll bet notes will start to come in. You'll probably find once you get started that you are stealing bits of other people's tunes, but that's nothing to worry about - the refrain of the first song I ever wrote was nicked from a song by Carl Corbett, with a bit of Fire and Rain stuck on the end. (Nobody's ever commented on the similarity.) I wouldn't start by trying to steal bits of tune, though.

Digressing slightly, I once changed the tune of a song I'd written because I realised it was a bit too close to a song by another regular at the local folk club. The first time I sang it with the new tune, I realised that the words were heavily indebted to the same song. Eventually I changed the words to get rid of the, er, homage, and changed the tune back.

---

21 Jun 08 - 11:01 AM (#2371419)
Subject: RE: Seeking tune for original lyrics
From: George Papavgeris

Agree with Phil. The lyrics are strong enough to stand on their own, and they don't need the prop of a "known tune", they deserve their own one, which would accentuate the right lines and syllables and match the feelings best.

Why, just reading the text, first off, a tune suggested itself to me. If you are interested, when I get a chance I will MP3 it and send it to you - just PM me with an email address to send it.

---

21 Jun 08 - 11:03 AM (#2371421)
Subject: RE: Seeking tune for original lyrics
From: George Papavgeris

Oh, and responding to a statement you make in the opening post: In my book, THIS is the right way round in folk, lyrics first because they are the most important. The tune then should support and enhance the lyrics.

---

21 Jun 08 - 05:58 PM (#2371634)
Subject: RE: Seeking tune for original lyrics
From: semi-submersible

I'd absolutely love to hear any tune suggestion!

I agree my metre is rough. (I'm delighted that you still liked the ideas, Gargoyle!) I most wish I could replace "strength," since that string of unvoiced consonants (-ength re-) is so awkward. But every other phrasing I could think of either added length or caused the meaning to drift badly. Root, stem, branches, and all, the entire plant works to "raise" leaves and supply their needs. The leaves return sugar energy made from sunlight and water to all the plant's cells and symbionts. Likewise the adult human breadwinner shares vital economic power with family or community "supporters."

Would it be better if I add syllables to make the rhythm completely regular? Although I couldn't hear in my mind a good tune or chords to carry the lyrics, I did build in a beat, though at a glance one can't tell in the version above which lines begin with on-beats or off-beats. Here is an example modified to start all verse lines with off-beats (da-DA-da-DA... except where a preceding line can end with an off-beat: "power," "hour.") The chorus can use a triple beat as shown here, or any other pattern. For that matter, is it even helpful to have a chorus in this song?

(Chorus:)
LEAVES decay, FORests burn.
NOthing's lost; THEY'LL return.
EV'R homeward CIRcle-ing
WE give life IN our turn.

A loved one's life, a withered leaf -
There's pain and loss and fear and grief -
Why do we bud and grow, to fall and die?
Upraised in green and tender youth
To catch the sun and find our truth,
Sweet strength repays the ones who lift us high.

O, dance in winds of life and power
Living ev'ry gifted hour,
Shine with brightest wisdom near our end,
When wind-torn young, or age-worn leaves
In tumbling, crumbling mem-o-ries
Make soil to feed next season's growth again.

Would you give up your pain and grief
For safety as a pressed dry leaf
Emotionless and brittle on a page?
The mountains rise and crumble too.
A perfect bloom is one that's new,
Renewing year by year or age by age.

- - - - - - - -


While trying clumsily to learn the tune suggestions given above, I was also intrigued by Genie's rearrangement of my lines to scan with The Water Is Wide (with the last 2 melodic lines of TWIW verse repeated on the last 2 lines of the lyric).

Your 124536 order works for the first verse I think, but meaning seems to get lost in the second. Your third verse modification is most exciting, though:

I would not trade my pain and grief
For safety as a dry, pressed leaf.
Year by year as ages flew,
The mountains rose and crumbled too.
A perfect bloom is one that's due
To die each year and bloom anew.


Thank you, friends! I'll be back. By the way, which lines are confusing?

---

22 Jun 08 - 04:16 PM (#2372066)
Subject: RE: Seeking tune for original lyrics
From: George Papavgeris

Maureen, the score is here.
It's done in a bit of a rush, the tempo should be 50 or less rather than 120 as shown, but you'll get the idea

---

22 Jun 08 - 06:07 PM (#2372142)
Subject: RE: Seeking tune for original lyrics
From: semi-submersible

Thank you, thank you! I especially like the little flourishes on the short verse lines.

I am practicing to get a better handle on the tune.

By the way, I'm thinking "Falling Lives" may be a better title than "deciduous."

Gratefully,
Maureen

---

22 Jun 08 - 07:54 PM (#2372183)
Subject: RE: Seeking tune for original lyrics
From: George Papavgeris

Your call, but I rather like "Desiduous" because it cuts right to the heart of the message - a kind of recycling of lives.

Glad you like it! I am thinking of taking it up and singing it too.

---

22 Jun 08 - 07:56 PM (#2372184)
Subject: RE: Seeking tune for original lyrics
From: semi-submersible

Now I'm rearranging the third verse and chorus to include Genie's clearer phrasing. I've messed up your refrain, George, and it may need adjustment. (I may yet tweak the last two lines of the chorus, but they would still keep a regular on-off-on off-on-off-on beat from now on.) I do like your melody!

Updated last verse:
Would you give up your pain and grief
For safety as a pressed dry leaf
Emotionless and brittle on a page?
A perfect bloom is one that's due
To die each year and bloom anew,
Returning year by year and age by age.

Chorus:
Leaves decay, and forests burn,
Mountains rise and crumble too.
Nothing's lost: each in our turn
Ever giving life anew.


Questions for all:

1) Title: Deciduous, Falling, or Fallen Lives? The first sounds obscure, the others sound like downers. (Leaves shed at the end of their season are called "deciduous," as opposed to "evergreen.")

2) What bits need effort to understand?

3) Does it work better with added syllables to make the rhythm completely regular as above?

4) Which is better at the beginning of the third verse: "I would not trade my..." or "Would you give up your" pain and grief/For safety as a pressed dry leaf?

Thanks,
Maureen

---

23 Jun 08 - 01:37 AM (#2372286)
Subject: RE: Seeking tune for original lyrics
From: GUEST,.gargoyle

Semi

This has been a fun one to "mess with" during breaks this weekend.

The chorus is true to "Going Home" (key of C beginning on E)

However, the lyrics break into a wonderful modal contrast. (key of G minor beginning on G (two flats) and returning to an open C at e)

IF - you have a "safe" e-mail. Please post and I will send.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

---

23 Jun 08 - 03:18 AM (#2372312)
Subject: RE: Seeking tune for original lyrics
From: semi-submersible

Thank you very much for those kind words.

"Modal contrast" goes a little over my head; I understand keys but not modes and I'm hazy on chords (I can work out dots or ABC a note at a time) but I'd be interested to see what you mean. I can send my email in a PM but I don't want to post it out here.

Yes, that spring is ever flowing. Anyone may stoop to drink, but it's quite a trick to carry some away. Ideas are dime-a-dozen; it's the rest of it that's hard, as Stuart said on CBC today.

---

24 Jun 08 - 06:02 PM (#2373575)
Subject: RE: Seeking tune for original lyrics
From: semi-submersible

Yes indeed I would, Gargoyle. I did send an email about 25 hours ago.

Thank you,
Maureen

---

09 Jul 08 - 08:49 AM (#2384592)
Subject: RE: Seeking tune for original lyrics
From: semi-submersible

George, I've been learning to sing my verses to your tune, which I transcribed to help me try to figure out the metre. Is this version faithful to your melody? (I'll make ABC with fewer bars per stave if you prefer, but unless one can manually space the notes, some words are still likely to get tromped. Likewise with space between staves, if all verses visible at once.)

X:1
T:Deciduous Lives
C:M. Parrott/G. Papavgeris
M:4/4
L:1/4
Q:100
K:C
G/ED|C>CF(G/A/)|G>GED|C(D/E/)FG|D>DE>F|GCFE|DCD2|
w:1.A loved one's life, a with-ered* leaf. With pain and loss and* fear and\
w:grief Why do we bud and grow, to fall and die?
%w:2.We dance in winds of life and* pow-er Liv-ing ev'-ry* gif-ted\
%w:hour,* Shine with bright-est wis-dom near our end
%w:3.Would you give up your pain and* grief For safe-ty as a* pressed dry\
%w:leaf E-mo-tion-less and brit-tle on a page?
zGED|CCF(G/A/)|G>GED|C(D/E/)FG|D>DE>F|GCFE|DCC2|
w:Up-raised in green and ten-der* youth To catch the sun and* find our\
w:truth, Sweet strength re-pays the ones who lift us high.
%w:When wind-torn young, or age-worn* leaves In tum-bling, crum-bling* mem-o-\
%w:ries Make soil to feed next sea-son's growth a-gain.
%w:A per-fect bloom is one that's* due To die each year and* bloom a-\
%w:new, Re-new-ing year by year and age by age.
P:Refrain:
G(A/B/)c>z|d(c/A/)G2|EDC>z|FGD2|G(A/B/)c>E|F(G/A/)G>F|(E/F/)G(F/E/)D|Cz/|]
w:Leaves de-* cay,and for-ests* burn, Moun-tains riseand crum-ble too.\
w:No-thing's* lost: they will re-*turn Each one* giving life* a-new.

The duple rhythm of my revised chorus doesn't fit your music anymore. I've tried playing around with the notes, but the only changes that came close to working were putting in "A" and "E" for the added "and"s in the first and third bars of the chorus respectively: G(A/B/)c>A|d(c/A/)G2|EDC>E|FGD2|. Every other modification I tried sounded far worse than your original. I was working with the third bar, where "Mountains rise and" didn't seem to go with the falling notes you wrote for "Nothing's lost," and the rhythm of the last three bars where you had captured my original irregular meter delighfully. (I can adjust my lyrics to that by singing "gives" instead of "giving," although I'd prefer stresses to fall on "Each," "giv-," and "life.")

Gargoyle, although I've been receiving quite a few emails all along, some people lately reported bounced messages or server-timed-out errors when sending to me. Could you possibly try again, please? I've purged my inbox to see if that could be the problem. I would very much like to see your music.

Thank you all,
The fishwife from BC

P.S. I've got egg on my face! I learned the comforting song I was trying to write has been around for a couple of centuries, likening the life of a man to the seasons of a leaf that must "wither and soon fade away." How often has this wheel been reinvented?

---

09 Jul 08 - 09:04 AM (#2384604)
Subject: RE: Seeking tune for original lyrics
From: semi-submersible

Dang! After all that, I messed up the line-continuation characters. Here, this one works.

X:5
T:Deciduous Lives
C:M. Parrott/G. Papavgeris
M:4/4
L:1/4
Q:100
K:C
G/ED|C>CF(G/A/)|G>GED|C(D/E/)FG|D>DE>F|GCFE|DCD2|
w:1.A loved one's life, a with-ered* leaf. With pain and loss and* fear and \
grief Why do we bud and grow, to fall and die?
%w:2.We dance in winds of life and* pow-er Liv-ing ev'-ry* gif-ted \
%hour,* Shine with bright-est wis-dom near our end
%w:3.Would you give up your pain and* grief For safe-ty as a* pressed dry \
%leaf E-mo-tion-less and brit-tle on a page?
zGED|CCF(G/A/)|G>GED|C(D/E/)FG|D>DE>F|GCFE|DCC2|
w:Up-raised in green and ten-der* youth To catch the sun and* find our \
truth, Sweet strength re-pays the ones who lift us high.
%w:When wind-torn young, or age-worn* leaves In tum-bling, crum-bling* mem-o- \
%ries Make soil to feed next sea-son's growth a-gain.
%w:A per-fect bloom is one that's* due To die each year and* bloom a- \
%new, Re-new-ing year by year and age by age.
P:Refrain:
G(A/B/)c>z|d(c/A/)G2|EDC>z|FGD2|G(A/B/)c>E|F(G/A/)G>F|(E/F/)G(F/E/)D|Cz/|]
w:Leaves de-* cay,and for-ests* burn, Moun-tains riseand crum-ble too. \
No-thing's* lost: they will re-*turn Each one* giving life* a-new.

---