BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video

11 Jul 08 - 01:58 AM (#2386295)
Subject: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

Countdown with a gleeful Rachel Maddow

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11 Jul 08 - 07:40 AM (#2386453)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: kendall

Nothing happens.

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11 Jul 08 - 07:41 AM (#2386455)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Mr Happy

Ditto

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11 Jul 08 - 09:03 AM (#2386513)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,lox

If you click on one of the other videos on the left and then choose the one in question afterwards it should work.

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11 Jul 08 - 10:56 AM (#2386587)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: katlaughing

Worked fine for me. What a ridiculous bastard he is. Also of interest is his outright lies in the "McCain clashes with Vietnam Vet" video. What a bastard.

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11 Jul 08 - 01:05 PM (#2386701)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: dick greenhaus

Check out
McVane changes as the wind shifts

Forget the source; check out the references. Either he flip-flops at ultrasonic speed, or he lies about his previous stands, or he simply can't remember.

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11 Jul 08 - 02:10 PM (#2386765)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

I think he knows his position, but didn't know how to articulate a 'politically correct' answer, being a politician. Just another view into how these candidates want to give themselves flip flop room, do a lot of talking, but say nothing!

Note: ED is usually cause by psychological reasons, not the plumbing, unless there is very low testosterone levels. )Medical FACT, so don't reply whining about this one, too!)
On the other side: Birth control,and abortions??? How about some personal responsibility??...Do we need to pay for both???

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11 Jul 08 - 02:45 PM (#2386795)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: dick greenhaus

GfromS-
That's not really the point. Whether or not we should pay for birth control and abortions is a matter to be voted upon. Not waffled about by candidates who won't take a stand on either.

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11 Jul 08 - 02:46 PM (#2386797)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: katlaughing

Do we really need to pay for men to be able to fuck and possibly impregnate?

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11 Jul 08 - 02:57 PM (#2386810)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

Kendell,
Mr Happy,
The link is directly to the clip but the msnbc homepage jumps through some hoops to get there, including for me, an ad. It takes at least 30 seconds and we have pretty fast Internet.

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11 Jul 08 - 03:32 PM (#2386834)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: katlaughing

Meanwhile, the idiot gets worse:

Right, the news here is that McCain and his wife bantered playfully -- and that McCain made a "wisecrack" about cigarettes.

Um, AP, the joke was about killing Iranians. Asked about increased exports to Iran, mainly from cigarettes, McCain said: "Maybe that's a way of killing them." The joking about killing was the news here.

From a link provided in THIS PIECE.

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11 Jul 08 - 04:47 PM (#2386897)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Bill D

It feels to me like McCain simply has not come to terms with the way presidential politics/campaigns are done these days. He seems to live...in his head...in an era where 27 reporters & pundits and internet bloggers didn't tear you apart within minutes of a gaffe or awkward moment....and replay the incident interminably for days or weeks.

Obama seems to work much harder at.... ummmm..listening to HIMSELF ...and avoiding stupid and controversial comments.

I have begun to believe that McCain 1)has NOT thought thru all his own pronouncements and 2) Is, in fact, showing early signs of age-related fuzziness. It is not something that is evident if he has time to ponder, but when he has to think on his feet, it shows a bit. (for an extreme example, look at Sen. Robert C. Byrd these days! You would not put HIM in front of Chris Matthews !)

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11 Jul 08 - 07:45 PM (#2387036)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Donuel

Today Joohn McCain admitted that he has had a mental recession.

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11 Jul 08 - 08:28 PM (#2387058)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Bobert

Man, can you imagine McCain trying to negotiate with Putin???

We are doomed if this half-heimerz guy gets elected...

B~

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11 Jul 08 - 08:58 PM (#2387079)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Good point katlaughing!..We should pay for women to fuck irresponsibly at the risk of getting impregnated!!

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11 Jul 08 - 09:27 PM (#2387087)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Dick greenhaus, I agree with you100%. Put it to the vote!

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11 Jul 08 - 09:30 PM (#2387092)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Riginslinger

"We should pay for women to fuck irresponsibly at the risk of getting impregnated!!"


                   We do, don't we, and we call the offspring "crack babies."

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11 Jul 08 - 10:40 PM (#2387122)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Ebbie

Ha, I say. I started a lengthy dissertation and gave it up. In all likelihood, y'all already know what I think about this anyway.

Suffice it to say that I think that it's ridiculous. Which is more important: giving old men the ability to impregnate or,in this overcrowded world, the ability to prevent pregnancy?

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11 Jul 08 - 10:47 PM (#2387123)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Riginslinger, Oh yeah, I forgot, that too!...Funny how they want to have the right to control over their bodies,..as long as it doesn't have to do with controlling any morals about it!..or their minds..at everyone's else expense!! I have a friend for over 40 years, who adopted two children, both crack babies, and the hardship his wife and he, had to endure!! I wish they thought about control over their bodies a little more, and a little earlier....(mouths too!)...oh, I'm going to hear about this one!!!!!!!!!!
Its ironic,..as a man, who delivered my children at home, I've told men that to miss out on the birth of your children, is really cheating themselves out of one of the most beautiful and sacred experiences, in one's life..still, when I hear the first 'crack' of a newborns cry, I still get tears. Same goes for women, in regards to all you've said above, in your prior post..no forethought about all that. Note: NOT CATEGORIZING ALL WOMEN!! HOLD YOUR FIRE!!(can't believe how I came under fire in another thread, for admiring women who actually love and bond to their children!)

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11 Jul 08 - 11:28 PM (#2387145)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: katlaughing

"We should pay for women to fuck irresponsibly at the risk of getting impregnated!!"

That is a very illogical statement.

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11 Jul 08 - 11:31 PM (#2387147)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

More illogical than yours???? Re-read yours!!!

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11 Jul 08 - 11:34 PM (#2387151)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Here, I'll make it easy.....

From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 02:46 PM

Do we really need to pay for men to be able to fuck and possibly impregnate?

Works both ways, doesn't it???

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12 Jul 08 - 12:10 AM (#2387165)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: katlaughing

It would only "work both ways" if men could get pregnant.

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12 Jul 08 - 12:23 AM (#2387167)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

...All the more reason for women to be more responsible, don't you think? After all, if I was a woman, I think I'd be more conscious of that, and perhaps, even be more selective, as to the guy I went to be with....preferably, my husband. It's so ironic, that women in general, through the ages, claim to have the inside corner on intuition, right?? Yet, somehow, they seem to lose it, when it comes to picking the right man for them...or knowing that they might get pregnant, this time, eh?

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12 Jul 08 - 03:58 AM (#2387192)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: katlaughing

Anyway, back to McCain wanting to make sure his Viagra is paid for, but when it comes to telling insurance companies to cover the cost of preventing unwanted pregnancies through chosen and legal responsible birth control, he says "No." Nothing like double standards.

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12 Jul 08 - 11:13 AM (#2387327)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Ron Davies

What's interesting here is something also brought out in one of those clips--the slick game McCain and his spokesmen are playing. Here's Carly Fiorina going around telling women McCain is with them in trying to get birth control also covered by health insurance--and since McCain's stance on this is, no doubt, not that well known, some women--the ones already positively inclined towards McCain and not willing to do research--believe her.
And if they never hear anything different, what they now think will not prevent them from voting for him.

You would hope that those for whom this is a big issue would in fact do the research--but it's not a good idea to assume anything.

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12 Jul 08 - 12:47 PM (#2387365)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

The American people have been lied to, so much, by all the candidates, that it seems that we are left with the ones we perceive, as to telling the lesser of all the lies, or who are at least slick enough to get away with it.If a candidate is on the left, just say so, if on the right, say so, and let the people decide what they want. However, they all, spend more time pandering, to get more votes, saying things that they don't even believe nor support, or say they support things the can't remotely make happen. This goes, not only to McCain, but Obama, too! How often we hear, that, such and such, is 'moving to the middle', in their 'positions', when in reality, its not their position, AT ALL! I remember some one once telling me, and I'll share it with you, and that is, "If they are leaning to the right, that means they are sitting to the left, and vise versa, if you are sitting on the right, you don't 'lean' to the right" (same as the left). Neither of the front runners, no matter what they spout off,are being honest with us!, nor are they capable of delivering things they so nobly expound on. Likewise, let's not all think that one candidate or the other is a 'savior'. After all, they are just politicians!

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12 Jul 08 - 12:58 PM (#2387375)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Little Hawk

That is how the $ySStem perpetuates itself. It ensures that either party, when elected, will provide a continuance of the great status quo in Imperial Amerika.

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12 Jul 08 - 01:01 PM (#2387380)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

That is absolutely correct, Little Hawk, and through this time, and for some time, america has slid down backwards, through BOTH parties!

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12 Jul 08 - 01:06 PM (#2387383)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Alice

can someone explain again how to find or link to the video?
I can't find it at that page.

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12 Jul 08 - 01:07 PM (#2387385)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Little Hawk

Yep. Tough times indeed.

Dennis Kucinich has been plugging away in Congress, introducing articles of impeachment against George Bush and Dick Cheney for launching an Iraq War based on lies. Does anyone notice his efforts? I bet not too many do. It probably is not considered newsworthy by the MSM.

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12 Jul 08 - 01:22 PM (#2387399)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

It seems to me the issue is that women want to be able to "fuck" responsibly. That's why they want their insurance companies to pay for their birth control. (duh!)

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12 Jul 08 - 01:23 PM (#2387400)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Ron Davies

So it's back to the Amen Chorus of cynicism.   Situation normal.   Good thing quite a few Americans don't seem to be signing on to that drivel this time.

Obviously, we'll see in the fall.   But right now the signs are not all gloomy, despite the fondest hopes of the smug cynics.

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12 Jul 08 - 01:24 PM (#2387402)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Ron Davies

Not aimed at Carol of course--cross-posted.

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12 Jul 08 - 01:37 PM (#2387411)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Alice

um, can anyone answer my question? How do we find the video?

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12 Jul 08 - 01:40 PM (#2387412)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: dick greenhaus

The troublesome (to me) thing about McCain is less what he stands for (even if he can't seem to make up his mind as to what that is) but his ability do deny that he ever changed his stance. It's either a supreme contempt for the voters, or congenital lying or oncoming senility.

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12 Jul 08 - 01:40 PM (#2387415)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: katlaughing

Alice, when you click on the link, you should then see a video player screen on the center-right of the webpage with small thumbnails for a variety of videos on the left which you may click on to view in the larger screen. There may be a short advert which plays first. I hope that helps and that it works for you. If not, it is also on YOUTUBE.

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12 Jul 08 - 01:43 PM (#2387416)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

The video is right in the link provided in the opening post. It's necessary to wait for the advertisement to end and then the video comes right after it.

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12 Jul 08 - 01:43 PM (#2387417)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

Crossposted.

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12 Jul 08 - 01:51 PM (#2387420)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

The MSNBC video player is temperamental sometimes. Youtube is more stable. But the link has worked for me every time I've tried it from the Mudcat.

I just click on it a wait a little while.

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12 Jul 08 - 02:08 PM (#2387424)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Little Hawk

"Amen Chorus of cynicism" (yawn) Who cares what you think about that, Ron? I would still vote for Obama anyway now if I were in the USA to do so, so what difference does it make if I think his party is a sad joke and I think the Republicans are too? It wouldn't stop me from participating in the exercise as you do and casting my vote. I will continue to call the corrupt duopoly in the USA a sham if I want to, because that's exactly what it is. It's a single oligarchy that plays off the power and the perks between 2 competitive teams, like in a football league. Both teams want like hell to win, but they both serve the oligarchy.

Football teams need fans, and the Democrats have you while the Republicans have DougR. Ra! Ra! Ra! Have fun at the game, okay? I enjoy watching the spectacle, but I am not so naive as to think it's what it pretends to be: a genuine democracy.

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12 Jul 08 - 02:30 PM (#2387431)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

CarolC, Like I said before, ..'preferably with her husband'.. who loves her. That is the most responsible way, agree? Why short step, and go for anything less, than the real thing?? I think we can all agree to that. Besides, its not good for children to see, either (single) parent, have a parade of different 'lovers' come and going, then asking them, 'Umm, How do you like this person, for a dad(mom)? or Do you like 'Freddy, more than 'Mickey'? Children are not capable, nor should it be foisted upon them, to pick their 'parents', I think that is self obvious. Other than that(not that there is any contention), I agree with you, in regards to 'more responsible'

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12 Jul 08 - 02:49 PM (#2387436)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: katlaughing

Oh, no! I'll have to ask my kids if I picked the wrong one! After all these years (29 and counting.)

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12 Jul 08 - 03:31 PM (#2387449)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Kat, its great to hear, that 29 years, of everything, both good and bad, that you stuck it out, and hope that it gets fuller as it goes, and all understanding between you two, causes it to be more enriching, than even originally thought of!! Only a commitment like that, does one ever comprehend the depth, and see the absolute value of moral!(even if one falls, and makes mistakes for a bit)! ...Tip of the hat

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12 Jul 08 - 03:42 PM (#2387456)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Alice

When I click on the link I don't see what you describe, Kat. I don't think MSnbc likes my macbook.
I'll find it on you tube.
thanks

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12 Jul 08 - 03:43 PM (#2387459)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: katlaughing

Ah, that might be, Alice. Try the youtube link...it should work, as far as I know.

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12 Jul 08 - 04:04 PM (#2387467)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Alice

you tube worked, thanks

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12 Jul 08 - 04:13 PM (#2387471)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

If insurance companies refuse to cover birth control, the number of unwanted pregnancies is likely to rise. If the insurance companies pay for viagra, the number of unwanted pregnancies is likely to rise.

Seems like a no-brainer to me.

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12 Jul 08 - 04:15 PM (#2387472)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

JtS watches it on his iMac, so I'm surprised there might be a problem on a macbook, but maybe macbooks are different from iMacs.

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12 Jul 08 - 07:49 PM (#2387546)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Little Hawk

I wonder what his (McCain's) opinion is on banana peel insurance coverage? I bet he would claim that he hasn't given it any thought yet. You can bet Chongo Chimp has.

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12 Jul 08 - 08:17 PM (#2387557)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Alice

I'm on a dial up connection. viewer would not even show up on the page, but I saw it on you tube after it loaded there.
McCain can't get away with playing it like this. Acting like he doesn't remember a vote just feeds into the perception that he's too old to stay sharp enough for the job. And video like this goes viral fast. Some things said on a campaign bus used to stay on the bus, but not now... goes straight to the internet.

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12 Jul 08 - 09:37 PM (#2387588)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,lox

Hey Kat and Sanity,

Isn't that an outdated argument?

don't we agree that responsibility for our actions is to be accepted by every individual, regardless of context, gender race or religion? no more and no less?

The real flaw in sanity's original defensive rebuttal of Kats quip is that some women do not choose to become pregnant but find that a choice has been made for them.

This covers a range of examples from family pressure to rape.

Womens enfranchisement is still finding its feet.

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12 Jul 08 - 10:29 PM (#2387607)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

lox, there is no argument between us. If you were trying to be a little more, than 'politically correct', you only succeeded in making no new point. In the context, I believe Kat and I were exchanging post about, was the value of personal responsibility. Also, there is a vast difference between, 'enfranchisement', and 'sense of entitlement'. We All need to be more responsible to our families, and society, in general, that to roam from sex partner to sex partner, without any sense of responsibility. Now, isn't it past your nap time?

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13 Jul 08 - 12:55 PM (#2387830)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,lox

Gosh you are defensive.

No I'm not trying to be politically correct. I can read two sides of a discussion above - one saying "it cuts both ways" on the issue of responsibility and the other saying "it's not that simple" I then explain why the second view is the correct one.

Clarification is my word of choice.

Thankfully on these threads it is all recorded so you can read back over it if you like, which makes bickering about who said what redundant.

And for the record I believe women should indeed feel entitled not to be held responsible for rape.

I don't think thats too much to handle is it?

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13 Jul 08 - 01:36 PM (#2387856)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Alice

The fact is, married people have more sex than unmarried. Married women need birth control to plan pregnancies, which is a matter of health care. The idea that some people seem to have is that birth control products are mainly to be used by promiscuous women! Wrong!

Article from WebMD health news:
Gender Inequality, Not Promiscuity, Main Factor in Sexual Health

"So why is sexual health such a huge problem? The study suggests that unequal treatment of girls and women as the major sexual-health issue."
"Monogamy is the dominant pattern in most parts of the world. Men report more multiple partnerships than do women. Such men are more likely to live in developed nations."
"Marriage is no safeguard of sexual health. It is more difficult for married women to negotiate safe sex and condom use than it is for single women."

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13 Jul 08 - 01:41 PM (#2387861)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: katlaughing

Thanks for the link and info, Alice.

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13 Jul 08 - 02:18 PM (#2387885)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

I'm having difficulty understanding why insurance companies would refuse to pay for birth control for women.   It makes no financial sense at all. If they don't pay for the birth control, they'll have to pay for the health care costs of the pregnancy and the birth, and for the health care of all of the offspring that result from the women whose birth control was denied. This makes no sense to me at all.

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13 Jul 08 - 06:42 PM (#2388018)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,lox

They probably own the conraceptive company too ...

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14 Jul 08 - 01:50 AM (#2388195)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

CarolC, Nova, was the one who came out in the 60's with the first widespread birth control regimen(Dial a Pack). Even though it was passed by the FDA, the results are not in, as to the results of women taking 'the pill' for generations, and as to menopause, and/or post menopausal symptoms..much the same as HRT(hormone replacement therapy), and or, what happens when women stop taking 'the pill' suddenly, on the effects, later in life. The results just are not in. Remember, in fact, you are artificially altering you bio-system, with a synthetic chemical. As for HRT, after taking them for 3-5 years, the risk of certain cancers is multiplied, several times..and even higher when stopped abruptly, after being on them. Although advertised as being safe'..a more realistic claim would be 'safe....so far...maybe'

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14 Jul 08 - 09:05 AM (#2388357)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: frogprince

As I understand the traditional hard-line Catholic position, it boils down to not having sex if you don't want children. (Rhythmn method excepted). On the other hand, I know of fundamentalist protestants who would not even practice the rhythmn method, because that would be disobeying the Genesis command to go forth and multiply; that includes a preacher who decided that he had sinned in getting a vasectomy, and had the procedure successfully reversed.
Guest from Sanity, do you lean to either of these positions, or do you find them as untenable as I do?

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14 Jul 08 - 11:25 AM (#2388488)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Alice

Birth control does not just mean "the pill".
There are many types of birth control.
I am sure many mudcatters, like me, had a grandmother or great grandmother who had baby after baby until finally dying with the last pregnancy.
The complications I had with both my pregnancies almost killed me. The twins did die with my first pregnancy, a caesarian saved me and my son with the second pregnancy.
Birth control is a matter of saving women's lives. With a history of blood clots, I could not safely get pregnant (or take the pill). I finally chose tubal ligation.
Men who blithely claim that pregnancy is natural don't realize that death from pregnancy and childbirth is natural, too.
Let women protect our own health and lives by being able to use the birth control that is safest for each of us.
In the USA, that means you have to have enough money to pay for it.

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14 Jul 08 - 11:32 AM (#2388501)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

I am seconding the comment that the "pill" is not the only form of birth control. There are many forms of birth control. I've used birth control all of my adult life, and I think any man who says women shouldn't have access to birth control ought to have unpleasant things done to his tender bits.

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14 Jul 08 - 11:42 AM (#2388519)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,lox

And it therefore follows that men who think women should have access to birth control ought to have ... er ... equal and opposite treatment ...?

   :-D

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14 Jul 08 - 12:08 PM (#2388560)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

Of course!   ;-)

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14 Jul 08 - 03:21 PM (#2388813)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

I was addressing the question only of government and insurance funding of birth control 'pills'. I certainly wouldn't was the funding of the rhythm method pulled into this too!! Actually, I was addressing the question of the funding of the pill, and products such as Viagra. Either fund them both, or neither.

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14 Jul 08 - 03:35 PM (#2388831)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Alice

The discussion, guest, is about McCain's response to the reporter's question about birth control. If all you think when you hear "birth control" is the pill, then your understanding of birth control is obviously very limited, in spite of the counseling experience that you claim.

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14 Jul 08 - 05:07 PM (#2388960)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: dick greenhaus

The interesting thing is that Carly Fiorina, who started the whole thing by complaining about the fact that birth-cntrol pills weren't covered by some insurance plans, is a close adviser to McCain and is reportedly on his short list of VP candidates. Let not thy right foot know into whose mouth it's going to wind up.

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15 Jul 08 - 12:08 AM (#2389276)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Alice, If you read the other posts, along the way, the question of funding Viagra, as well as abortions, and birth control was brought up, and that is to which I was responding. Take a red.

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15 Jul 08 - 07:17 PM (#2390219)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,lox

I think perhaps it is you that should take something ... perhaps some proplus ... and you can try and concenrate long enough to understand the difference in importance between ensuring women have access to contraception and in ensuring that men can have access to erectile disfunction remedies.

I have no doubt that women too would be as pleased as punch to have access to a pill that could make them aroused whenever their curiosity was sufficiently piqued.

That would be cutting both ways.

Perhaps that's something the politicians should be trying to sell -I can see Obama now - "Men and Women alike have the right to sexual fulfilment!"

Only thing is we'd all forget about the issue of contraception.

Contraception is how a woman may take responsibility for her life and body and not have to rely on the good nature of men.

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16 Jul 08 - 03:37 PM (#2390871)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Viagra, and Cialis, and the like do not stimulate sexual arousal, they actually constrict certain blood vessels, to allow an erection to last longer. I think you are confusing them with a 'Spanish Fly', or something. They are not aphrodisiacs. I have counseled couples that even when taking prescription meds for ED, lost the effects..usually from the behavior, of one or the other.

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16 Jul 08 - 07:35 PM (#2391023)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,lox

"Viagra, and Cialis, and the like ... constrict certain blood vessels, to allow an erection to last longer"

No they don't. They increase the blood flow to the penis and they also work to allow previously unable men to get an erection in the first place, not just to maintain one.

I think you are confusing them with a hastily zipped up fly ...

Agreed - they won't put you in the mood or make you fancy someone you don't - but you have to admit that an erection is a pretty good physical indicator of arousal.

Arousal ... awakening ... as if from sleep ... now what could that be a metaphor for ...

Womens arousal also requires a bit of blood flow ...


But lest we forget, the political and social importance of all this are non existent compared to questions of contraception, abortion, responsibility and sexual ignorance and education.


But what about my erection?         ...         Relax!

---

16 Jul 08 - 09:16 PM (#2391064)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Two things: I was siting cases where a prescription was given, to someone who was having side effects from blood pressure medicines, and I re-read my post, and I omitted that part, which I apologize.

Second: The post was originally about McCain's comments about government funding for birth control, and Viagra, to which in the ensuing posts, there was discussion regarding sexual responsibility, verses medical reasons, verses just for sex(though it wasn't worded that way). Sexual responsibility is of course optimum. As for abortions, of course there are medical reasons to have them, no argument there. Viagra, same thing. So, in my post, I stated, that for the government either pay for both, or none. The government should not be paying for anyone to 'enhance' their sex life, for mere pleasure, or irresponsibility...Neither should we look to the government to fill in, for what we don't feel like doing ourselves, and that is, taking responsibility for every whim, we'd like.. sexual or not. I'd prefer the government shrink quite a bit, not expanding it to every aspect of our lives....this, as well as other things, we are quite capable of doing, ourselves.

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16 Jul 08 - 09:52 PM (#2391077)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Alice

My point of view - We ARE the government. We collectively come together to build and maintain our infrastructure, our law enforcement, etc, and if we want a productive and healthy population, we should collectively support the ability for our citizens to have health care, and contraception is an important part of health care for women.

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16 Jul 08 - 11:37 PM (#2391108)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

The question isn't about what the government pays for or doesn't. Not in this country anyway. The question is about what insurance companies should or shouldn't pay for. Different question entirely.

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17 Jul 08 - 12:17 AM (#2391122)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

Proof that there is no liberal media bias.

Think these bloopers are making McCain squirm?

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17 Jul 08 - 12:24 AM (#2391126)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

CarolC; That is a really good question! That is also quite different than the government paying for it, from our taxes. i suppose then, that it would be up to the policy provisions, and back into the responsibilities of private persons...not a public political issue!!
Alice: Excellent point, that I also shared in another thread. Yes we are the people, and we are the government. I think things wouldn't have got so out of hand, if we put things to a vote, rather than having politicians (not) representing us, nor the will of their constituents, but rather, pandering to the few, who are the most vocal!.. then pushing their own agenda, just to get elected, only to abandon their platforms, and selling their vote to the highest bidder! Great point, Alice!!

Now a question from me: Should the government fund and/or provide condoms, in the junior highs and high schools?..And should a minor be allowed to have an abortion, without notice or consent from the parents?
I'm anxiously awaiting your feedback!

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17 Jul 08 - 09:42 AM (#2391360)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Alice

Is it time for someone to say,
"don't feed the troll"?

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17 Jul 08 - 10:50 AM (#2391400)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

In order to understand the discussion in this thread, it is necessary to watch the video for which a link was provided in the opening post to this thread. Here is is again...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#25630618

(Wait for the video to begin in the top viewer. There may be an advertisement before the video.)


The subject of the thread is that one of McCain's top advisors said she thinks insurance companies should have to pay for birth control since they pay for Viagra. A reporter asked McCain what is position was on this, in light of what the top advisor in question said, and in light of the fact that he voted against a proposal that would require insurance companies to pay for birth control if they were going to pay for viagra.

McCain's dissembling on the issue is the subject of this thread, along with his inability to remember many of the votes he has cast as a Senator, or his positions on those issues.

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17 Jul 08 - 12:49 PM (#2391515)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

A troll?????..because you won't answer questions???..or because someone disagrees with you??...or because you resort to 'name calling' and labeling??

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17 Jul 08 - 12:54 PM (#2391517)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

Carly Fiorina is the McCain Surrogate. She was implying that McCain supported her point of view that women are as entitled to birth control as men are to Viagra. McCain had voted AGAINST a bill forcing insurance companies to cover both birth control and Viagra. McCain in the interview does not remember the vote. So he has two problems. It appears that his surrogate is misrepresenting his votes to pander.

It also appears that he is voting for things without understanding them.

It seems to me that Fiorina should not be speaking about McCain's positions when McCain does not know what his position is. Anyone who has passed the Commander in Chief Threshold, should have some idea what his people are talking about when they explain his positions. No doubt it was some combination of these factors which caused him to squirm.

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17 Jul 08 - 12:57 PM (#2391520)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

Guest from Sanity,

Are you sure she was talking about you? To me it does not seem that you are trolling.
On the other hand, if you think that your posts might be interpreted as trolling, it may be a sign that you could change your tone for the better.

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17 Jul 08 - 09:11 PM (#2391741)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Jack, thank you..well taken...however, when I'm typing, I rarely, if ever, have ill will, in my posts. Alice, if I was in error, I apologize

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18 Jul 08 - 08:56 AM (#2392026)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,lox

"Should the government fund and/or provide condoms, in the junior highs and high schools?"

Being familiar with what a condom is and understanding how it is used are essential parts of education in sexual health.

Access to condoms for teens should be allowed.

But this should be promoted alongside real guidance in sexual health, including emotional as well as physical health so that young people are genuinely educated about the possible consequences of decisions they make about their bodies and their hearts.

"And should a minor be allowed to have an abortion, without notice or consent from the parents?"

The Idea that a child should go through any traumatic experience, emotionally scarring and physically damaging, in both cases possibly permanently, without the knowledge and support of their parents absolutely horrifies me.

Unless there are grounds such as abuse, rape or similar, which require that the parents be excluded from the situation, then it is of paramount importance in the interests of the child that the parents be involved.

Simply feeling embarassed because you've been a bit naughty should not be grounds for your nurse to maintan confidentiality.

Parents should of course be informed and involved in a constructive way, if necessary with the help and encouragement of the health experts.

Lack of parental involvement, care, education etc is a fundamental cause of poor sexual preparation, emotional and physical.

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18 Jul 08 - 10:23 AM (#2392100)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: katlaughing

Speaking of Muddle Through McCain (youtube video):

TRANSCRIPT:

JOHN MCCAIN: "[...] There has been a rise in al Qaeda activity along the border. There has been some increase in U.S. casualties. I am concerned about it, but I'm not as concerned as I am about Iraq today, obviously, or I'd be talking about Afghanistan. But I believe that if Karzai can make the progress that he is making, that -- in the long term, we may muddle through in Afghanistan."

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18 Jul 08 - 11:23 AM (#2392145)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

lox:, I appreciate your candid reply...which causes me to ask you another question...Do you think the jr. high, and high school kids, should be issued condoms, through the schools, as some(now quite a few) are doing??

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18 Jul 08 - 01:21 PM (#2392249)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: dick greenhaus

GfromS-
Schools aren't going to be able to effectively promote chastity; that's the function of the home. And if kids are going to screw, making birth control available is a fine idea. Too many people fucking doesn't have to result in too fucking many people.

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18 Jul 08 - 01:40 PM (#2392272)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,lox

"Do you think the jr. high, and high school kids, should be issued condoms, through the schools"

Perhaps as part of a wider health program including sex education that covers the emotional context of sexual activity as much as the physical.

It could be more appropriate for a school nurse to point a teenager in the directiion of a family planning centre, emphasising that such places also provide a confidential service.

Being armed with useful information and possessing condoms does not equate to being promiscuous, but if anything it demonstrates a combination of curiousity and responsibility, honesty and thoughtfulness.

If we as adults are honest, we know that our kids, like we were, will be curious. Its up to us to equip them with knowledge and a sense of self respect and respect for others.

I believe this is achieved by offering reassurance, informed advice, trust, unconditional love and a willingness to talk openly about sex whenever our children need us to (which isn't always obvious and is often ignored) and presenting it in a positive way without shame.

Easier said than done - but important to try.

I'm not a doctor and this is just my opinion.

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19 Jul 08 - 04:34 AM (#2392737)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Lox:, A very thought provoking response! When I read into your meaning, I see that you too, believe that the optimum training is that at home!! That is a position, that one takes early on with the children, with deep conviction, and seeing life from a distinct point of view! One must take that responsibility, to a degree, where there is no safety net, on not just sex, but other matters as well! As I said in another post, 'We must teach our children HOW to think not WHAT to think!' To value, not only their lives, but also others, and the effects that our actions may affect other lives. Psychologically, adults sometimes cannot bare the stress and strain of a relationship gone bad, let alone what it does, and burns out, in a minor, teenager!! No matter what policies may be institutionalized, to give an escape hatch(teen abortions, birth control, et al), it is our responsibility, as adults who know better, to turn our children on, to the realities of life, consequences, and rewards...and not the 'street'. By the way, technically, issuing birth control, condoms etc etc, is actually 'contributing to the delinquence of a minor, and opens the door for experimentation, which leads them to be prey for predators. The best, is to take responsibility as if there is no safety net, and mean business. Thinking that one is 'too hip for the room', and throwing caution to the wind, is the first step, to losing control!..Hey, God Bless

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19 Jul 08 - 01:09 PM (#2392944)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

Teenagers have always experimented with sex. Teenagers will always experimented with sex. That's not going to ever change. The best way to try to make sure that fewer children are born to people who are too young to be able to guide their offspring effectively (because they are too young and emotionally immature themselves), is to make sure they have access to birth control, and to make sure they are armed with as much information as we can possibly give them.

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19 Jul 08 - 05:53 PM (#2393095)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,lox

I am placing my bets on this approach - I'll let you know how successfull it is in 20 years.

The key to stopping your kids becoming prey to predators is to concentrate on building their self esteem and self respect.

Hopefully the result of this will be that they will not feel a need to self harm in any way, whether it be by drugs, self inflicted injury, or by putting themselves in risky situations.

Equally they will hopefully be fussier with whom they are willing to engage in sexual activity.

If you can avoid sex being associated with shame, embarrassment or self harm, and instead try to associate it with positive factors such as, health, reassurance, communication and love, then I believe you are making an important contribution to the future happiness of your child.

So when issues surrounding sex and sexuality surface, they must be honestly and positively talked about.

A condom should not be seen as taboo paraphernalia, but as a healthy indication of the wearers consideration for their partner.

Who knows, maybe this would change many peoples peception of condoms from being annoying inconveniences to being a fun part of shared enjoyment.

Who knows ... maybe Pigs will fly ...

But you have to start somewhere and you have to decide why which means deciding what your priorities are.

Mine is the happiness of my child.

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19 Jul 08 - 07:34 PM (#2393146)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

That's definitely a good approach. Another important element, however, is to raise children who are not emotionally needy. Raising children with good self esteem is part of that, but making sure they get all of their other emotional needs met is equally important. I say this from the perspective of having already conducted the experiment with success. My son is about to turn 25. I raised him with both of those things in mind - self esteem as well as doing whatever I could to make sure his other emotional needs were met.

Because he was not emotionally needy (except around me, but he grew out of that), he was not vulnerable to predators, and he has never had an interest in being a predator himself. In fact, he has never had any interest in being sexually active outside of a committed relationship. That's one of the things I really respect about him.

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19 Jul 08 - 07:37 PM (#2393148)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

BTW, when my son got old enough to think about the possibility of becoming sexually active, I made sure he had some condoms.

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20 Jul 08 - 03:39 PM (#2393591)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

kat: First of all, though i agree with some of your post, quoting Either Clinton, is not a very good idea! History has shown us that either Clinton couldn't say the truth about anything, even if their lives depended on it. There was a joke here, in the U.S.A., while Bill was in office.."How can you tell if Clinton is lying?....Their lips are moving" As to the other part of your post...All the more reason for women, to not depend on contraception, but to develop higher morals, and raise the bar, as to who they have sex with. Besides, the results aren't in yet, as to the alterations and or damage to women's psyche done to women, who have depended on oral contraceptions, over decades of use. Can't argue that...they just aren't in, yet. As to denying medical help for rape victims, help, by all means, should be given to them, no doubt,..the only problem by citing that, is that it came from Hillary, and she is as dependable as a cardboard rubber, for accurate information, about anything!!
Also, her referral to Congress..etc etc......This Congress hasn't done squat, about anything...even to what they ran on. This Congress has an even less (14%) approval rating than Bush(27%). People, both men and women, need to get it together, seriously, and real quick, before trusting the government to do, solve, or be able to fund anything!!! We ALL need to take personal responsibility back into our own hands!!!And that goes for all of us, including the parents, in the time and energy we give to our children...not just in the 'self esteem' aspect..but in the moral backbone...from which, self esteem should come from...not 'self esteem'..just for self esteem's sake.

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20 Jul 08 - 04:11 PM (#2393612)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: katlaughing

Well, I disagree with you about the Clintons, most definitely.

How are higher morals about who women choose to have sex with going to lead to less pregnancies, let alone unwanted pregnancies, if birth control is not available? How will women, who take the higher moral ground about who they have sex with, protect themselves from STDs without condoms and other means? How will they know that the men they have sex with, whom I notice you did not suggest take the higher moral ground, are safe from impregnating them and/or passing on a sexual disease?

Finally, saying we should all take responsibility, which birth control ALLOWS US TO DO, but NOT advocating against a government which is trying to take that responsibility away from us, is disingenuous at best, utterly naive and/or misogynistic at worst.

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20 Jul 08 - 04:21 PM (#2393617)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

Give up contraception and and have higher standards for the men they are involved with? What the hell is that supposed to mean?

Women use contraception within the context of solid, happy marriages, because they don't want to have children (at least at that point in time). This strange suggestion looks like it's telling women they are obliged to have children whether they want to or not.

If we want to see an increase in unhealthy home environments, the best possible way to do that is to take contraception away from women and force them to have kids whether they want to or not.

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20 Jul 08 - 04:26 PM (#2393620)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

And I would reiterate, yet once again, there are many forms of birth control that are not oral contraceptives.

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20 Jul 08 - 04:32 PM (#2393624)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Alice

I addressed this wayward assumption about women in the post on July 13
click

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20 Jul 08 - 05:00 PM (#2393643)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Sorcha

Supposed Sanity from Insanity..have YOU ever been pregnant or raped? What if YOUR wife didn't want children early in the marriage? Would you FORCE her too? Sounds pretty 'fundie' to me.

And DON'T talk to ME about 'moral women'. YOU, sir, are a First Class Jerk. Why did you even COME to Mudcat? Just to stir shit?

You can go away now, just as suddenly as you showed up.

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20 Jul 08 - 05:31 PM (#2393671)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,lox

100

Whoo-eeeee


Sorry ... you may resume ...

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20 Jul 08 - 09:53 PM (#2393777)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Wow!! You sure can't read very well!! I said both men and women, and I said women who were raped should have medical treatment provided for them!....kat reads right, although I still disagree with her on the Clintons.(not to worry, don't like Bush either). I think some of you comment on each others comments, as to what you THOUGHT I said, or am saying..let's try it again....Don't rely on the government to take the place of your own personal responsibility!! Insurance companies, as I said on a prior post, are different, as to the contraception issue....but the government doesn't owe you birth control pills, or other contraception...nor does it owe men pills to keep their dick hard...ok??? Got it?????
As time goes on, our government is getting less functional, as to the principles it was founded on...and the more you turn over your own responsibilities to them(who used to be us), and depend on them for everything, the greater the hold they have on you. You want freedom??..then be free of them too!......jeez!

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20 Jul 08 - 10:05 PM (#2393782)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

This is the part you didn't care to read, or comprehend!!!!

"This Congress hasn't done squat, about anything...even to what they ran on. This Congress has an even less (14%) approval rating than Bush(27%). People, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, need to get it together, seriously, and real quick, before trusting the government to do, solve, or be able to fund anything!!! WE ALL need to take personal responsibility back into OUR own hands!!!AND THAT GOES FOR ALL OF US, including the parents, in the time and energy we give to OUR children...not just in the 'self esteem' aspect..but in the moral backbone...from which, self esteem should come from...not 'self esteem'..just for self esteem's sake."

What part don't you get???????????( I even re-did it with caps, just in case you might have selective understanding, and misquoting me back to me)

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20 Jul 08 - 10:29 PM (#2393796)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

We can read. Anyone who wants to know what was said can go back and read anything that's been posted.

We were told to not rely on contraceptives, and to develop higher morals about whom we get involved with. It's right there for everyone to read.

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20 Jul 08 - 10:37 PM (#2393802)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Here's the quote:

All the more reason for women, All the more reason for women, to not DEPEND on contraception, but to develop higher morals, and raise the bar, as to who they have sex with. Besides, the results aren't in yet, as to the alterations and or damage to women's psyche done to women, who have depended on oral contraceptions, over decades of use. Can't argue that...they just aren't in, yet.

Let me re-state:All the more reason for women, to not DEPEND on government funded oral contraception...etc

Sorry, I should have made it easier, the first time. (That context thing just gets some people all mixed up....)

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20 Jul 08 - 10:57 PM (#2393811)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

I don't think it's possible to re-phrase one's way out of a comment like saying women should elevate our morals instead of depending on birth control. I can't imagine a more patronizing and condescending (and yes, probably misogynistic) thing to say to more than 50% of the world's population.

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21 Jul 08 - 12:36 AM (#2393850)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: katlaughing

give it up, gfs, you keep contradicting yourself and posting even more convoluted, illogical claims, i.e. you quoted yourself as saying

to not DEPEND on contraception,

THEN, you "restated" that as

to not DEPEND on government funded oral contraception

important distinction there in the bold type(my emphasis)

So, any woman who is too poor to spend $600 per year for oral contraception should seek a higher moral ground and not get pregnant by doing so? And, by that logic, a woman who can afford the pill, can fuck their lights out, right? That is the most fucked up, pun intended, logic I've read here in a long time.

Guest come to stir the pot? I don't think so...member trying to thinly disguise who s/he is more like.

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21 Jul 08 - 06:03 AM (#2393959)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Emma B

'Flame baiting is setting up a situation for you to get flamed usually on a forum. You don't actually flame, but make it hard to respond without flaming.

Its setting people up on the internet so they look like the bad guy.'

'THE MOST POPULAR MOTIVE IS THE DESIRE FOR ATTENTION AND FOR ENTERTAINMENT DERIVED AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS.

Posted flamebait can provide the poster with a controlled trigger-and-response setting in which to anonymously engage in conflicts and indulge in aggressive behavior without facing the consequences that such behavior might bring in a face-to-face encounter.

In other instances, flamebait may be used to reduce a forum's use by angering the forum users.'

- Definitions from the internet

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21 Jul 08 - 07:04 PM (#2394618)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

You both missed the point....(selective)....nor am I 'squirming my way out of anything...The thread was about McCain's comment, about insurance companies paying for birth control and evolved to the government funding of the same..My position is MEN AND WOMEN (stated repeatedly..but ignored) should not depend (or any way you want to put it) on the government funding, more than what they can do for themselves, including birth control, or Viagra. You don't believe me??...Re-read my first post on it!!!

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21 Jul 08 - 10:57 PM (#2394740)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

Watch O'Reilley be a jerk

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22 Jul 08 - 11:15 AM (#2395129)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

What does having high morals about one's sexual partners have to do with not depending on the government or insurance companies?

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22 Jul 08 - 07:27 PM (#2395506)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,lox

Could it be be a Male Female thing?

Do mothers prepare daughters and fathers protect them?

Are those the starting points for Men and Womens perspectives on sexual health and education?

Certainly as a single dad I am aware that my first instinct may be to be overprotective, while a mothers perspective might be to empathise a bit more and to try and ensure that lines of communication remain open.

High standards and High morals are not the same thing.

Morality is a constraint that could add pressure and confusion to an already unhappy life experience.

High standards are a natural by product of self respect.

Maybe a gentle balance of Moral constraints and nurturing self esteem is in fact a more balanced perspective.

Excuse my ramblings ... back to insurance companies ...

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22 Jul 08 - 09:14 PM (#2395576)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

I think what I was asking was in what way does the statement that women should have higher morals relate to the idea that women shouldn't rely on the government? In what way are these two ideas connected?

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23 Jul 08 - 04:37 AM (#2395746)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Hey lox, Are you really a single Dad??, and if so, how old are you??

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23 Jul 08 - 11:31 AM (#2396010)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

No answer to my question? I guess a blanket apology to all women is in order then from the one who made the suggestion that the use of birth control by women is an indication of low morals.

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23 Jul 08 - 04:13 PM (#2396220)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

....more like the 'suggestion' that low morals, are part of expecting everyone else to carry the burden of another's responsibility...as so far as our government picking up the tab, for a personal choice, in this matter. Low responsibility in regards to promiscuous sex, just as it is the same for men, who don't care to use protection for transmitting STD's.(p.s., if you're going to quote me, in some semi-literate diatribe, use the WHOLE quote, this time). The point is, once again, for people to take responsibility, upon themselves, for their personal choices, rather than this stupid sense of 'entitlement'
at everyone else's expense. What is so flipping wrong, demented, evil about that???

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23 Jul 08 - 07:04 PM (#2396361)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Sorry, had to fix the post...This time I posted my name as well..Sorry again


After you click this link, go to the fifth video down, interview with Aaron Russo, talking about Rockerfeller..this was just sent to me....About half way through, he talks about the orgin of the 'woman's movement'.....Hope its an eye opener for some of the duped,..as he said he was too!

http://www.freedomtofacism.com/

Just imagine,maybe I'm not so..ummmm...koo-koo

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23 Jul 08 - 07:47 PM (#2396396)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,lansing

wow!!!!!!!!!!!!blew my mind

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24 Jul 08 - 12:44 PM (#2396879)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

I'm not allowed to copy past from other people's posts. But if I were allowed to, my copy paste would show that the post in question says that Hillary and Bill are liars, that women who use birth control have low morals, that we don't know whether or not oral contraceptives are safe for use long term, and that we shouldn't rely on the government for anything. It's all right there in the post for anyone to see. Calling me semi literate doesn't alter what's in the post in question.

Saying that women should raise the level of their morals rather than depend on birth control, which is what the post says (it's right there for anyone to see), is hardly the same thing as saying that women who sleep around have low morals, or that people who rely on the government to pay for their birth control have low morals (something I would vehemently disagree if that had been what was said), or that men who sleep around have low morals. It only says that women should develop higher morals instead of relying on birth control. An apology is in order for this statement. If none is forthcoming, I think we will all know why.

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24 Jul 08 - 12:47 PM (#2396881)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

And by the way, being insulted by the comment that women who use birth control have low morals has nothing whatever to do with feminism.

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24 Jul 08 - 12:54 PM (#2396885)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Emma B

Carol - he's not worth it!

Flamebaiting -
'THE MOST POPULAR MOTIVE IS THE DESIRE FOR ATTENTION AND FOR ENTERTAINMENT DERIVED AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS.

Posted flamebait can provide the poster with a controlled trigger-and-response setting in which to anonymously engage in conflicts and indulge in aggressive behavior without facing the consequences that such behavior might bring in a face-to-face encounter.

In other instances, flamebait may be used to reduce a forum's use by angering the forum users.'

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24 Jul 08 - 01:02 PM (#2396890)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

I would use the term "troll" rather than flame bait, myself. But I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove they don't deserve it.

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25 Jul 08 - 11:26 AM (#2397649)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

CarolC, At first, I was tempted, to cut and paste your post, of what I said, and then post my post of what I said, in its entirety, next to it, just to show how you take things out of context, just to be contentious, but I decided not to, though if pushed I may just do that, if you really feel like being, once again, publicly humiliated, but, personally, that is not my agenda. I thought instead, I'd use your own quote, and show you were we differ.
"BTW, when my son got old enough to think about the possibility of becoming sexually active, I made sure he had some condoms."
Well, that's the quote. Interesting that you said 'I' made sure..etc. I guess Dad had no say in it?
When I was a young boy, about 11 or so, my mom, after my Dad, set it up, sat me down, and talked to me about the 'urges' that I was going to experience, now that my body was going to go through changes. She asked me just a simple question, that to this day had tremendous impact. "How would you feel, if you chose a girl to be with, and to share your love and life with, have a family with, be the mother of your children, Would you want a girl who was 'passed' around?" How would you feel, if you thought I was passed around?..or your sister, Patty?" Then she proceeded to explain, that if the thought wasn't a good one, to make sure that I myself wasn't the one 'passing' other girls around, messing it up, for other people, who might care, not to have theirs 'passed' around..because those girls are someone elses sister, and someday, someone's mother. She taught us boys, to have respect for ourselves, by not giving into these urges, on various subjects, and to have a value one our own lives, and the lives of others. To treat others, the way we wished to be treated, and in doing so, learn to make decisions not based on our 'in the moment 'feelings and urges', for self gratification. This, she said, would make sense to us as we grew up, more and more, and that we would some day see the wisdom in this....no matter what the criticisms of 'the crowd' said or thought. 'Right is right, if nobody is right, wrong is wrong if everybody's wrong' (used to hear that to). She was able to put herself on the line, because she knew, that we knew that she was a good and loving mom. Needless to say, she was right, and also she instilled in us a very healthy respect for women BY HER EXAMPLE!
Yeah, I get replies to some of my posts, by some of the women in here, ragging on me, about how I disrespect women..etc etc..and blazzoo goof goof...Its just so much nonsense, that all I'm left with is "Jeez! What a bitter, unpleasant nag!'
So, what you have taught and reinforced in your son, is follow your urges, don't get caught, or bring another inconvenience into your life, in the form of an 'unwanted' child..and by the way, when you grow up, do whatever you want, including cheating on your wife and family, because I never taught you to have the moral fabric and value system, to allow your mind to rule over your 'urges'..whenever you want them. Now, I'm sure, that you, or one of your 'liberated'(ie multiply divorced) cohorts, will take exception and fly off the handle at me..but before you do...take the moment and just reflect...think..Wouldn't you have rather have those values in your home...instead of the hopelessness of the urges, you think your son was at the mercy of??????

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25 Jul 08 - 11:58 AM (#2397672)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

I took nothing out of context. I have addressed all of the points that were made in the post in question.

On the subject of my son's access to condoms... yes, that was my decision to make without the need for approval from his father, since I had legal custody that was awarded to me by the court. It worked out well that way, because he didn't feel comfortable talking about stuff like that with his father.

I would never teach my son that a woman who has had sex prior to marriage is damaged goods (has been "passed around"), any more than I would teach him that he is damaged goods if he has sex prior to marriage. I taught him by example, and by telling him, that when one harms another, he or she also harms him or herself. I'm glad I did so, because he has grown up to be a very caring person with a tremendous amount of personal integrity (who has no interest in casual sex), instead of growing up to be the kind of misogynist who would say that a woman who has had sex prior to marriage has been "passed around".

Having said all of that, however, I think I'll now let the troll have the thread to him or herself.

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25 Jul 08 - 01:06 PM (#2397728)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

yes, that was my decision to make without the need for approval from his father, since I had legal custody that was awarded to me by the court. It worked out well that way, because he didn't feel comfortable talking about stuff like that with his father.

I would never teach my son that a woman who has had sex prior to marriage is damaged goods (has been "passed around"),

Need I say more??? You said it all!!!!

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25 Jul 08 - 01:37 PM (#2397759)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Cecil

Gfs, I don't think she gets it. Women like that are too busy making rationalizations. I've read your posts, and hers through several threads, and she ALWAYS bitches at you!

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25 Jul 08 - 04:01 PM (#2397861)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,echo

Cecil, that's lansing's line!

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25 Jul 08 - 04:48 PM (#2397899)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Cecil

I didn't know. I guess if its repeated, you might consider that someone else isn't getting the clue! Anyway, I think what is going on in here, is clearly obvious. GfS is clearly right on, in sticking up for the family unit, and the damage that has been done to it, by the willing subscribers to ignorance!

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25 Jul 08 - 05:27 PM (#2397923)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

This issue at hand has nothing to do with The family unit. Though I'll admit that family units are involved, as are the rest of the family jewels.

GfS's arguments could not be more bogus.

It did no good for the ladies to point out to him that the majority of women who use birth control are married and using it to behave responsibly. Or for that matter that unmarried women using birth control are being responsible.

>>Note: ED is usually cause by psychological reasons, not the plumbing, unless there is very low testosterone levels. )Medical FACT, so don't reply whining about this one, too!)<<

The above is nonsensical in reference to this debate. Unless he is saying that Viagra IS prescribed for psychological problems and we should pay for that. For one thing, sugar pills are much cheaper, for another, Viagra IS prescribed for a particular "plumbing" problem.

GfS seems to be trying to switch the debate from ethics to morality. The problem is that he is claiming a moral superiority that exists only in his mind. Carly Fiorina, was not compairing married, faithful men to single promiscuous women when she, McCain's representative, made that complaint. She was comparing all men to all women. At the core GfS is arguing that only men behave morally therefor they deserve to have their sexual lives subsidized by health insurance, while women do not. If you believe that men are more sexually moral than women then continue to argue with him. But don't let him foolishly claim moral high ground that no man has ever had.

My opinion is that birth control is as much a health issue as ED and fairness demands equal treatment. Certainly a man with ED and a woman without contraception both have the option not to fuck. The consequences of doing without the treatment are much more serious for the woman and potentially much worse for society. The insurance companies are

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25 Jul 08 - 05:31 PM (#2397929)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

The insurance companies are the real "family units" in this debate.

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25 Jul 08 - 06:00 PM (#2397949)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

This link shows the real issue of this debate.

Viagra vs birth control is and arbitrary distinction. The only reason we have it is because the insurance are lobbying Congress rather than dealing with the consumer.

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25 Jul 08 - 07:59 PM (#2398033)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Sorry Jack, You couldn't be much more wrong than you are now...though I have enjoyed many of your prior posts....

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25 Jul 08 - 08:06 PM (#2398036)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

>>You couldn't be much more wrong than you are now

In your opinion perhaps.

I appreciate the compliment. But please consider that you might be laying the "morality" a bit thick.

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25 Jul 08 - 08:38 PM (#2398057)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Being as the family unit is being torn apart, by political agendas, maybe you're laying on something too thick, yourself! The politics in this country, should represent the people in this country..as of now, they are not. The policies set forth, have had a devastating effect, on all of us, and especially the family as well. Idealistically, I wish it were not the case..realistically it is. They build up problems, that were not problems before, the offer their 'solutions', which move us right into a larger political system..which has no care or concern toward the people.....just their own pockets...at least for a while..by then, the damage has been done! Jack, you've been 'round the block a time or two..you know darn well, what I'm talking about!

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25 Jul 08 - 10:02 PM (#2398108)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

Guest,

I agree that the country is going to hell in a handmaid's basket. But if we are going to rail against it and really make a difference. We need to pick our battles. That is when we say something we need to say things which are true.

McCain's Spokes person was comparing men and women insured by the same company, working at similar workplaces. She was not taking aim at anybody's unit. She also was suggesting that McCain has a similar position to hers. But his voting record indicated that he liked the opposite position. When questioned about his position and awkward silence ensued.

The bill before Congress in question, which McCain voted against, was in reference to whether insurance companies should be required to pay for contraception if they pay for Viagra. The questions about family units, morality, all of that did not come up until you brought it up.

My opinion is, people are going to have sex. If they don't want kids, they should be required to have birth control. If a man hasn't had sex in a long time and Viagra can cure that, he has plenty of incentive to find the money for the pills. Save the insurance coverage for the heart attack he's going to have while he's on top of that hooker.

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25 Jul 08 - 11:57 PM (#2398131)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST

Jack, I was merely responding to a post that misquoted me, as I was advocating that men and women take responsibility over their own lives when it came to contraception AND Viagra. When she made an issue over her misquote of me, I fired back.

Now check this out(about half way through, when it talks about the 'woman's movemen', and Rockerfeller)

http://www.freedomtofacism.com/

Check the last (fifth) video play button on right toward bottom of the web page.

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25 Jul 08 - 11:57 PM (#2398132)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Sorry...forgot to post my name on the previous post

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26 Jul 08 - 01:08 AM (#2398144)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

You want me to watch the video interview with the panty inventor nightclub owner?

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26 Jul 08 - 01:14 AM (#2398148)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

What is this all about?

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26 Jul 08 - 02:06 AM (#2398157)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Surely you aren't THAT lame!! I think if you watched it, in its entirety, you'd know that is a complete misrepresentation of what the video is about....Now I'm getting the opinion that ....never mind, either watch it or don't.

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26 Jul 08 - 02:10 PM (#2398377)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

I watched it long enough to be very bored by it. Then I stopped. Sorry. Is there an edited version?

Is this a fair summary?

The "one world government people" financed feminism to weaken the family and get more taxpayers.

Is that about right?

I don't really give a damn who financed it, though I find the conspiracy theory implausible.

As a student of both economics and motivational theory, I would say that feminism, with the advent of birth control, would be both inevitable and spontaneous.

There is little doubt that countries which have fewer children and put proportionally more resources into educating those children, have much higher standards of living. The rise of the west (The US, Canada and western Europe), of Japan, of the Asian tigers and now of India all bear this out. Also imagine the effect on world population if there were no birth control.

There is also the matter of self fulfillment on Maslow's hierarchy. Though many women were perfectly happy bearing baby after baby until their bodies wore out and they died, many women, especially in today's society, are not.

I know of perfectly sound family units, where the woman is the breadwinner. You don't need a dick to be a good lawyer or real estate agent. It is a waste of society's talent to have talented women, sitting at home barefoot and pregnant.

The bottom line, my answer to Aaron Russo, the inventor of the bikini panty, expert on feminism, is as follows.

The planet can't afford not to have birth control.

With birth control, a woman, having only a child or two, is perfectly capable of contributing as much to society, as any man, especially if the man contributes his fair share of effort in raising the child. The family unit of man, woman and a child or two or three is perfectly safe as long as the man does his share.

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26 Jul 08 - 05:38 PM (#2398457)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Emma B

Jack, you have my nomination for best riposte post of 2008 :)

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27 Jul 08 - 02:12 AM (#2398598)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Oh Jack, Dear Jack,..you're pandering..but then, as you said, you were a 'motivational speaker'. Just what is success?..if you don't have someone to share it with?...Your husband left you young, with children to take care of?..That's a hardship in itself, not withstanding the bitterness and heartache one has to work through, while doing it??..What kind of outlook does a young man have, when he was raised by an emotionally injured mother? That of a healthy man, who could have been raised by two loving parents, with all their brothers and sisters bonded in an uncluttered way? There is no finer way, than for both parents to unselfishly dedicate their lives to that end.
The problem is, when outside influences, spiritual. political, trends, agendas, and peers, attack the family, either the father, or mother, of children from sharing with each other, and living in that active family bond, then its time for someone to speak up, and raise objection to that. If you would have read many of my posts,(some in other threads), you would clearly see, that some line is taken either out of context, or the other points, raised were omitted, from being addressed, and someone, obviously living those hurts, takes exception, instead of seeing that what I'm saying, is actually rather positive, and constructive. 'To error is human, to blame it on someone e3lse, is even more human'. When someone flies off the handle at me, because I hit a nerve, it is usually an indication, that the person re-acting that way, has unresolved issues, in that area. 'We often wish to ennoble those faults we don't wish to correct'. (jeez, I'm even giving you good stuff for your 'motivational 'raps).Actually,
Where I stand, comes from both an empathetic and compassionate place. I haven't initiated an angry or vindictive post. That tone usually is fired up by a response! Then assumed by someone else on the same bandwagon, that I am the one doing the attacking!!! Nobody cuts and pastes the supportive things I've said when I lift up, the wonderful things, that women do, and are in the home!!..Perhaps that's painful too..but if I post something gleaned form DECADES of extremely effective counseling, I'm not going to change my position, to stroke some soul, out there, that just doesn't get it!
   As far as the video, all it is, is something to consider. I was watching the hearings in the Judiciary Committee on CSPAN2 last night, and certain things are fitting like a glove. Anyway, that video is out there, and who is to say its accurate or not..but it certainly COULD be a possibility, could it not?? If it is, either in part, or all...well, we're knee deep in shit. As they said on the panel yesterday, Bush has granted the presidency so much over reaching powers, that they needed to change that before the next president takes office...and by the way, do you actually think that members on that committee, HAVEN'T seen the video??? or are aware of its contents??.watch the hearings(interesting to see where it goes, and where it doesn't).....anyway...have a great night..and BTW..I never said is was wrong for a woman to work or seek a career, but emphasized that nothing can replace the bond that a mother has with her young children, and infants, and sacrifice THAT for a career. Read it, its all there......















1

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27 Jul 08 - 06:06 AM (#2398655)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: Emma B

One more time.....

Flame baiting is setting up a situation for you to get flamed usually on a forum. You don't actually flame, but make it hard to respond without flaming.

Its setting people up on the internet so they look like the bad guy.

Out of the horses mouth.....

'I haven't initiated an angry or vindictive post. That tone usually is fired up by a response! Then assumed by someone else on the same bandwagon, that I am the one doing the attacking!!!'

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27 Jul 08 - 11:53 AM (#2398761)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Emma, I know you just had to SAY SOMETHING in reply..but actually, you said nothing at all.

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27 Jul 08 - 12:46 PM (#2398775)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

There has been no anger in any of my posts. Someone seems to have been so emotionally scarred by an angry mother that they see any response from a woman that isn't in the form of praise as being made in anger.

Conversely, I myself am not living out any of the scenarios described by anyone in this thread. I was not abandoned by my son's father.

Emotionally healthy men are able to have discussions in which women disagree with them without seeing or characterizing the women as being emotionally scarred or angry. Misogynists are not able to do this.

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27 Jul 08 - 01:01 PM (#2398783)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

GfS Motivational theory is not "motivational speaking" motivational theory was presented to me by my business professors as a branch of psychology pertaining to the things that motivate people. here is more information on Maslow's hierarchy

You have gone on at length trying to justify your behavior in this thread. You are making it much more complicated than it is.

Your first post on this thread is the root of the conflict.

>>I think he knows his position, but didn't know how to articulate a 'politically correct' answer, being a politician. Just another view into how these candidates want to give themselves flip flop room, do a lot of talking, but say nothing!<<

The above is a mischaracterization, the problem he has in this interview is that his representative said one thing while his actions indicated the opposite. He was caught red handed and flat footed. His only two choices were to cut Fiorina loose or to act like a fool. He chose the latter.

>>Note: ED is usually cause by psychological reasons, not the plumbing, unless there is very low testosterone levels. )Medical FACT, so don't reply whining about this one, too!)
On the other side: Birth control,and abortions??? How about some personal responsibility??...Do we need to pay for both???<<<

The above is controversial and none of the points you make are relevant to the topic at hand. You are implying that birth control and personal responsibility are not compatible. the people you are attacking are saying that birth control IS personal responsibility. This post is very close to Emma B's definition of "flame baiting." I don't think that you did it on purpose, but the women on this thread, seem to think that they are trying to pull their chain. I have tried to explain the differences in your position and theirs.

I'll repeat it one more time. You are making it about morality. They are talking about equity in insurance coverage.

I think the problems on this thread are mostly misunderstandings. If y'all were to back off a bit then come back and speak about the same topic, everything would be fine.

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27 Jul 08 - 01:29 PM (#2398799)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

..And Carol, what is the equivalent when a woman can't carry on the conversation, with a man(God forbid), who she doesn't agree with???. I know some men just refer to them as 'bitches', however I think we can do better than that, can't we??..You tell me.

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27 Jul 08 - 03:08 PM (#2398858)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: CarolC

No, "bitch" is a term that is used by people who are trying to silence women who are articulating arguments with which they disagree.

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27 Jul 08 - 03:09 PM (#2398859)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor

GfS

I am coming to the conclusion that you simply WANT to fight.

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27 Jul 08 - 04:51 PM (#2398930)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,lox

I worked that out when I saw a statement comparing the importance of birth control with the importance for erectile dysfunction treatments.

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28 Jul 08 - 06:38 AM (#2399284)
Subject: RE: BS: Want to see John McCain Squirm? -Video
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Fight??? Me???..Naw, its really quite simple. I'm right, your wrong.

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