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11 Jul 08 - 12:52 PM (#2386687) Subject: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Donuel The mortgage companies Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae must be nationalized immediately or the deepest depression in history will ensue. If any other partial measures are taken it will spell total financial disaster. If not... The US could become a virtual failed state. UNTHINKABLE? No the unthinkable is only for those who don't think. I know it took Rome a couple generations to fall but the geniuses that took control of our elections, courts and military are far more efficient than the Barbarians. We warned for 8 years about the harm a neocon administration, with all its favorite agendas, would cause America. We have watched it only partially unfold. I foretold that the stock market would hit 10,000 and we are 20 points from slipping under 11,000. (the lowest worst case is 5,000.) I don't intend to sound arrogant but it is urgent to nationalize these two mortgage companies, which are already partially federal, NOW. It has often been said that the US is far too rich a country to not survive a couple problematic Presidential administrations. I say we will survive even the worst case scenario but we will survive with the strife of a 1930 depression with the help of a new WPA and no more wars on 3 fronts. I'm not going to hold my breath for a flood of recent billionaire war profiteers to come to the aid of their country. Those who raped the USA are not likely to help her. Polemics aside... There is nothing the Federal Reserve Chairman can do at this point. A presidential order to nationalize FM&FM is needed. unless you believe R Sen. Phil Graham, that whining claims of recession in this growing economy is all in the insane minds of liberals. Nationalizing FM&FM will stop the bleeding and give the patient a fighting chance.. Minutes ago Bush only gave a blurb that he is on top of it.(in a perverse way I suppose he is.) But he made no assurences for nationalizing them Both companies are below 50% of their earlier value and dropping. We now have to trust Bush's economic advisor!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is probably some Dr. Strangelove genius in the Bush crises room right now saying that we could reverse this financial situation by nuking Iran. :>{ |
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11 Jul 08 - 01:33 PM (#2386726) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Rapparee Well, actually, I kinda agree. |
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11 Jul 08 - 02:17 PM (#2386774) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Nationalize ANOTHER private company?? Well, that's a change! Look what happened when they turned over the printing of money(Government responsibility) to a private business(The Federal Reserve). I say, let the private sector be the private sector, and the government's sector remain the government sector! Quit messing with free enterprise, and the money supply..and taxing people to pay off a private company(Federal Reserve), for their profit!! Not the reason for taxes! |
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11 Jul 08 - 02:59 PM (#2386812) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Q (Frank Staplin) NY Times, July 11, 2008, article by Stephen Labaton and Steven R. Weisman. U. S. Weighs Takeover of Two Mortgage Giants. Synthesis- Bush administration officials are considering having the government place one or both of the companies in a conservatorship. A conservatorship would have sweeping powers to overhaul them, but would not have the authority to close them. The shares would be worth little or nothing, and any losses on mortgages they own or guarantee- which would be staggering- would be paid by taxpayers ! The securities of Fannie and Freddie are held by investors worldwide. Some $5 trillion of debt owned or guaranteed by the companies. Overall, all mortgage holders own or back $12 trillion in mortgages- (thus other companies have $7 trillion worth of the problem). Freddie is technically insolvent under fair value accounting rules, in which the company puts a market value on assets if it had to sell them now. Analysts expect the companies to announce a new round of write-downs and possibly be forced to raise capital by issuing additional shares, which would dilute their value for current shareholders. (Remember that many of us, through savings and loans, bank savings, mutual funds, pension and union funds, direct investment, etc., own a part of Fannie and Freddie). The article is quite long; if you are interested go to the NY Times website and search for the article. Sentences in () above are mine. Do Americans wish to nationalize $12 trillion in debt? I don't think so! But it does seem that action to conserve the companies is necessary. |
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11 Jul 08 - 08:18 PM (#2387052) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Donuel 12 TRILLION? cheeesh, I thought it was only 3 or 4 trillion. : |
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11 Jul 08 - 08:19 PM (#2387053) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Donuel By the way today I learned the Orwellian new speak for the word nationalize is "treasurize" |
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11 Jul 08 - 08:32 PM (#2387062) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Q (Frank Staplin) The $12 trillion is the total of all mortgages; Fannie and Freddie hold some $5 trillion worth. But many of the other companies are in a dicey situation. Today the government took over Indymac bank, a small one that was worth only about $32 billion. It will cost the FDIC (thus taxpayers) some $4-8 billion to secure depositors. Others are in line to be taken over as 'unsound.' |
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11 Jul 08 - 08:36 PM (#2387065) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Bobert Well, Donuel, I can see a scenerio where we could and should nationalize all lending... I think that we could use money that comes in from FICA (Social Security) to do so... That way there would be a return on the money coming into FICA... My problem with antionalizing it now is the3 stock-holders... How will they be compenstated... You know whon they are... They are rich Republicans who have used the big Bush tax cuts to invest in lending... Yeah, I know, they said they would invest in jobs and factories but they lied and sat back and lent money to the working class... I don't want to see them rewards or bailed out because they haven't deserved to be abiled out or subsidized any more... They have had a free ride all along with Bush and I fera that if we nationalize FM & FMac now that, unless it is carefully structured, that it will amount to the last of the cash grabs by Bush's campaign donors... Think about it!!! B~ |
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11 Jul 08 - 08:46 PM (#2387071) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Q (Frank Staplin) 3 investors? Crap! So far millions of investors have lost money, either as independent stock holders or as investors with savings or stock held in banks, savings & loans, pension funds, etc. etc. as noted above. Many of them are Obamiacs, not Republicans. |
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11 Jul 08 - 08:54 PM (#2387074) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity 2003, while in L.A., there was a station out there(KFI), radio doing a story, on some of the big lenders, and mentioned Fannie mae, as being corrupt launderers of drug money through their loans. They ran the story for about a week of two, then it moved onto other topics, and disappeared. In the story, they said that the corruption was so widespread, and large, that the predicted this, or something like it could happen. Anyone out there recall hearing anything about that?? |
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11 Jul 08 - 09:19 PM (#2387083) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Q (Frank Staplin) All mortgage lenders are susceptible to money launderers and mortgage fraud. The companies are not corrupt but an employee with them or with a bank doing business with them can use them to launder money. If the company carelessly accepts money or property in a loan scheme, they may be an accessory to a crime. This blog outlines some cases: http://www.mortgagefraudblog.com The blog is provided by a company which provides fraud services for the mortgage industry. |
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11 Jul 08 - 10:34 PM (#2387117) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Riginslinger Maybe a deep recession is what the country needs. |
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11 Jul 08 - 11:33 PM (#2387150) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Q (Frank Staplin) What, me worry? |
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11 Jul 08 - 11:38 PM (#2387153) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Bee-dubya-ell I think what the country needs is a new dominant paradigm. The old one's turning out to be a bear trap. |
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11 Jul 08 - 11:39 PM (#2387154) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: GUEST,heric I don't think its likely that any form of bailout will benefit Fannie/Freddie invesstors in the the short or medium term. (I think that's why they arranged the for pennies on the dollar buy-out of Bear, Stearns as they did.) Certainly we the public will pay and other investors will benefit, but not likely the F/F shareholders. |
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12 Jul 08 - 05:35 AM (#2387223) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Nationalise Fannie? It's a good job this isn't a UK thread. That WOULD be the end of new labour, given the difference in meaning. I'm just leaving......... Don T. |
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12 Jul 08 - 09:41 AM (#2387291) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Riginslinger "All mortgage lenders are susceptible to money launderers and mortgage fraud. The companies are not corrupt but an employee with them or with a bank doing business with them can use them to launder money..." On the other hand, anyone who has ever worked for a big company knows that individual managment people get nods and winks and prods from upper management to do things for the purpose of generating profit for the firm, but if these actions ever come back to bite, the employee is well aware that the upper-bees will plead indignant ignorance. |
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12 Jul 08 - 10:59 AM (#2387316) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: artbrooks That would be RE-nationalize Fannie Mae, right? It began as a government agency and was privatized, I think, during the Nixon administration. Or it may have been Johnson...no matter. |
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12 Jul 08 - 12:50 PM (#2387368) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Q (Frank Staplin) Riginslinger's message boils down to the contention that people are essentially crooked. "Anyone who has ever worked for a big company..." There are millions. Bank of America, 200,000; Exxon-Mobil, 83,000, etc. etc. Freddy Mac and Mae were created by act of Congress in 1968 and 1970. They were not operated by the government. 'Ginnie Mae' is a government agency. Freddymac has financed all or part of the mortgages of 50 million homeowners. About one-half of the loans support loans for low to moderate income families. It is small in number of employees; some 5000. But much of the lending is done by other institutions, but supported by Freddy Mac, and the mortgage bought by them. |
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12 Jul 08 - 03:09 PM (#2387443) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Q (Frank Staplin) Financial service companies such as Citigroup are big players. Citigroup (2006 figures from Fortune 500) had revenues of over $131 billion, and a profit of $24.6 billion. These companies make the oil majors look like pikers as far as profits are concerned. Exxon Mobil- $340 billion. Profit- $36 billion, or 11 cents/dollar of revenue. Citicorp- $131 billion. Profit $24.6 billion, or 19 cents/dollar revenue. (2007 revenue $159 billion) Bank of America- $84 billion. Profit $16.6 billion, or c. 20 cents/dollar. ---------------------------------------------------- Microsoft- $40 billion. Profit $12.2 billion, or over 30 cents/dollar revenue. - Hey, not bad for a mess of software! Or at least there are some out there who consider it a mess. http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune500/full list/index.html |
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12 Jul 08 - 05:00 PM (#2387486) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: artbrooks I think Fannie Mae was founded as a government agency during the New Deal and "reinvented" in 1968. No matter - today it is a private corporation. |
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12 Jul 08 - 05:28 PM (#2387499) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Q (Frank Staplin) Artbrooks, you are correct. My memory of the FDR days are cloudy (er, almost gone). Re-chartered as an investor-owned company in 1968. |
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12 Jul 08 - 08:12 PM (#2387554) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: GUEST,heric "July 12 (Bloomberg) -- Henry Paulson, the U.S. Treasury secretary, is planning a $15 billion capital injection into U.S. mortgage companies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the Times of London reported [Saturday], without citing anyone." well now . . . buy or don't buy? |
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14 Jul 08 - 11:36 AM (#2388506) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Donuel Here we go folks. 300 banks are doomed to fail before Christmas. The bank failure in California on Friday was not even on the FDIC trouble list. Freddie and Fannie's CEOs packed in humdreds of millions of bonues' based on the phoney/bubblized volume of business they "earned". Combine that with some other Wall Street folks who took the money and ran from huge failures and we could insure every child in the USA with health insurance. Blaming these CEO employees of large Corporations is warrented! Blaming every employee is a bit over the top. After all, the American dream is notmerely to get rich but to get rich quick. The raxpayer will get the bill for the coming bail outs and guess what... there ain't enough money in the treasury. Can China loan another 2 Trillion dollars? Sorry folks, I don;t thinks so. PS : to my dogged critics such as nenisis and robomatic etc., I hope you bear some substantial part of the misery you helped to bring this country, by your support of this administration. Of course people like Alan Greenspan are far more culpable but if you are merely the dope who refeled in the tiny tax break and srimuls check , you have essentially destroyed everyone's wealth for your momentary chump change. |
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14 Jul 08 - 11:44 AM (#2388525) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Riginslinger Elements in the media are pointing the finger at Charles Schumer, making the case that he caused the run on the bank in California. What's that all about, does anyone know? |
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14 Jul 08 - 11:51 AM (#2388536) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Donuel wdit the dope who reveled in the tiny tax break and stimulous check ... Should we continue to safeguard Bush and his pals with secret service for life? Short of criminal prosecution and prison the think they should live an exposed life like the rest of us. Is this too harsh? We can point a finger at any messenger and say he started the rumor that the dam might break. The truth is the dam has been leking for decades and even Alan Greenspaned warned of the houseing bubble as FROTH. But Greenspan just did everything Bush told him to do, or rahter not do anything to stop the dam from bursting. |
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14 Jul 08 - 12:07 PM (#2388559) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: GUEST,OTOH Hmmm. People seem in the dark that we are living in a gilded age of corruption. The taxpayers WILL pay for lots more Wall Street bail outs, some before Bush leaves office, some after. Doesn't make any difference who gets elected president, both candidates and parties are in cahoots with and beholden to Wall Street, and act at it's bidding. Same is true of natural gas/oil/gasoline prices. The prices are being fixed, we are being gouged, the oligarchies get fatter and fatter and fatter. Buy a clue, folks. It isn't going to be better in January, no matter who comes into office or the Congress. American screwed themselves by not engaging in public watchdogging (and villifying those who engage in it, like Nader), and voting over and over for the status quo. Happy despression, y'all! |
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14 Jul 08 - 12:13 PM (#2388565) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Donuel I am not in the dark regarding our cuurrent Gilded age. I wrote a comparison of the gilded age to today in the "How long do you want to live' thread last thursday. I have been railing against it for 8 years in this forum. I have been harshly critisized for doing so by a select few. |
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14 Jul 08 - 12:15 PM (#2388567) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Donuel 8 years ago I wrote that the last remaining vestige of middle class wealth left to be stolen was people's homes. Houses will be the next giant rip off. |
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14 Jul 08 - 12:29 PM (#2388586) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: GUEST,OTOH I don't know if that is true or not. As a life long renter considering buying property right now, I'm not anxious to leap into the market yet. Prices haven't come down enough, for starters. We want to see what the next local/state governments, Congress, and administration does for 1st time homebuyers in terms of government programs. We'd also like to see a little more stability in the mortgage market, but from where we sit, it won't effect us even if we buy property, because we're pretty savvy. The only real fire we're flirting with by waiting until after the first of the year is if inflation skyrockets, which is a very real possibility. If that happens, we will probably continue renting and saving and investing, and ride it out until the cycle ends and the inflation bubble bursts. Comes and goes, dude. Life in America means never having to say you're sorry OR do jail time if you know the right politicians. |
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14 Jul 08 - 12:31 PM (#2388590) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Donuel Getting a mortgage in this climate is what is drying up. When house values drop to a third of their high you should snap it up with a fixed rate... or buy cash. |
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14 Jul 08 - 12:41 PM (#2388603) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Q (Frank Staplin) The bailout in the 1980s cost roughly $125 billion, so the $15 billion noted by heric is undoubtedly only the beginning. The NY Times today reports analysts estimate about 150 of the 7500 banks may fail, again a fraction of those that went under in the 1980s (about 1000 then). The FDIC has $53 billion set aside to pay depositers in failed banks; the Indymac falure will take $4-8 billion of that. Indymac has already been re-organized with a new name and is in business again. See today's NY Times. |
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14 Jul 08 - 12:52 PM (#2388619) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Donuel Freddie mac and Fannie hold about 4.8 Trillion in property. IF they lose even 10% that is some cash If they lose half,,, the USA is looking at a deep depression for a generation or two , depending on natural disaster and ifrastructure failure. Neocons say that a big war will fix it but we all know wrong they have been. |
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14 Jul 08 - 01:12 PM (#2388652) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Donuel Wachovia Bank has spent 40 BILLION dollars in the last 3 years. They are now worth 25 Billion. What will happen to you? You will get your money back under $250,000, or you will get 50 cents back on the dollar. You will be told to blame a Democrat but bear in mind that the last bank failure crises had Bush hands all over it too. Regulation politics isn't lookin so bad anymore is it? |
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14 Jul 08 - 01:37 PM (#2388684) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: GUEST,OTOH We are already pre-approved for a 1st time homebuyer program in one county we are looking in, and will only do a fixed rate mortgage. We'll either buy now (if we can get a good deal) or keep renting and wait out the storm. Either way, I think predicitions of a depression are hysteria mongering at this stage. Yes, the saviing and loan debacle was a Bush-whacked operation too. I cannot for the life of me figure out why no one sees that oligarchy family for the crooks they are--but there you have it. And Donuel--the crooks are in BOTH those houses, not just the Republican houses of the oligarchy. If you want to be taken seriously, you will have to swallow the poison pill. The oligarchy rules BOTH parties, not just the Republicans. |
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14 Jul 08 - 01:37 PM (#2388685) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Donuel Lines to get deposits back are a half mile long. What is cable news showing instead? A Chevy Impala fleeing the police in LA. maybe they are going to the bank. |
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14 Jul 08 - 04:21 PM (#2388894) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Donuel OK however Scoundrels and hypocrits who wrap themselves in the flag are to be expected but Republicans who wrap themselves in the bible and flag and military patriotism alone are a superior scurilous form of scoundrel. |
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14 Jul 08 - 04:43 PM (#2388925) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Donuel btw tell the forclosed families and Califorians who are getting 50 cents back for every dollar they saved that they are hysterical or mongering bad news. With 80% of the actual value being hidden, banks and investment companies are blind pools of incredible losses behind the mask of pretended solvency. The bundled sale of mortgage securities as AAA secure instruments was a crime against the entire financial world in almost every nation. American finance houses did this. And now we bail them out! The US treasury is now the share holder of last resort and the share holder is in DEBT. Don't talk about hysteria, talk about the crimes that were ignored by the criminals in charge. |
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14 Jul 08 - 05:30 PM (#2389008) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Q (Frank Staplin) Ho hum. It's only money. Hold the hysteria a while longer. Officials briefed by the Treasury Secretary said Congress could be asked to extend the total line of credit to the institutions to $300 billion. The two companies touch about half the U. S. mortgages, either holding or guaranteeing them. The debt securities they issue to finance their operations are widely owned by foreign governments, pension funds, mutual funds, corporations and other institutional investors. If the companies can't stand the heat, the last ditch effort would be to appoint a conservator. Failure would result in dire problems for the world's economies. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/14/washington/14fannie.html?th&emc=th |
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15 Jul 08 - 10:33 AM (#2389596) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Donuel Popcorn has inflated to twice its cost of 6 months ago. The popcorn indicator rules! Bernenke is now delivering the worst news possible with his prediction of a multiple year problem of recession and inflation. Long term bad. Short term bad. Significant challenge ahead. High degree of uncerntainty. the market has dropped 200 so far with 6 hours to go. Trading might be halted but that bandaid could only make it worse. The moderators on CNBC are saying "oh my god" |
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15 Jul 08 - 03:16 PM (#2389973) Subject: RE: BS: Nationalize Freddie&Fannie NOW From: Q (Frank Staplin) Is it time for Canada to fence its border with the U. S. to stop them pore depressed illegal American immigrants from getting in? |