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20 Jul 08 - 05:07 PM (#2393650) Subject: Does it matter which tradition? From: Richard Bridge I was playing (electric mandolin with distortion pedal) for any Morris side at the Witstable festival and the Dead Horse Folk Ale this weekend, and a chap engaged me in conversation. He started by saying that he played some mandolin - traditional Irish - and then went on to say that it was nice to see English traditions such as Morris dance being preserved, and we had quite a chat about traditions. I told him that the general reaction to an Engishman saying such a thing was to label him a racist or BNP member and he seemed not fully in agreement. We discussed some of the historical problems between England and Ireland, and how he felt some unease when Christy Moore espoused or appeared to espouse violent Republicanism At first he was a little surprised at my reluctance to play or sing Irish but then he quite agreed that it would be absurd for me to sing "The Wind that shakes the barley" (with my fairly obvious English public school accent) and that he would sing neither violent insurrectionist songs (except Arthur MacBride which was, he thought, an anti-recruiting song, rather than a factionist one) and also that he would not sing some of the violent Orange songs. Yet he started from approving the continuation of English traditions. Why do so many disapprove of the English (those of them who do) doing just that? |
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20 Jul 08 - 05:13 PM (#2393654) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: Bonzo3legs Perhaps they have played too many Billy Bwagg CDs! |
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20 Jul 08 - 05:28 PM (#2393669) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: Richard Bridge The connection is? |
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20 Jul 08 - 05:58 PM (#2393679) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: Big Al Whittle i'm sorry but i really think it comes down to the same thing every time. You say its an English tradition, and yet it certainly has never touched my family, or the family of anyone I know. if there is an English tradition - it is something to do with galloping pragmatism, moving round the country and indeed the world like dervishes looking for work. it is one hell of a long time since the majority of English people worked in agriculture lived in one village - and only got to hear one style of singing and accompaniment. In short, the traditon has been going on elsewhere to where the experts have been looking. most english people see English traditonal music and musicians and how ever they dress it up and even if all the protagonists wear leather jackets and have midi connections on their harmoniums - it all sounds a bit like the madrigal singers did to Lucky Jim - bloody tedious, largely irrelevant and a hellish vision of 'merrie bloody England'. |
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20 Jul 08 - 07:57 PM (#2393733) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: Richard Bridge And the social cicumstances differ from those of Ireland, Wales, and Scotland how, in the cited respects? |
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20 Jul 08 - 08:13 PM (#2393744) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: McGrath of Harlow I told him that the general reaction to an Engishman saying such a thing was to label him a racist or BNP member and he seemed not fully in agreement. I wouldn't be in agreement either. In fact I'd be rather suspicious that somebody making a comment like that might well be a bit of a racist. (And in your case I know that would be completely wrong.) I really don't think that many people in fact do see fondness for Morris dancing and suchlike as an indication of racism. |
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20 Jul 08 - 08:50 PM (#2393757) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: Big Al Whittle 'And the social cicumstances differ from those of Ireland, Wales, and Scotland how, in the cited respects?' ever heard of the potato famine and the highland clearances - and god alone knows what we did to the Welsh, but i don't suppose it was any better. we depopulated those countries, so the communities were less industrialialised, more isolated and more composed of rural communities. Even when they went off to live in Chicago - they went as people from rural communities. By all the rules of folkmusic, I should be from a folksinging family. My Grandpa (born circa 1880) was the son of an irish tinker, he was sold as a baby to a lancashire family - and he was down the pit by the age of 12, and he knew hundreds of songs and he was a clog dancer. But i tell you this when he sang, and what he sang wasn't like anything really like whats in the folk club nowadays. Cosmotheka used to do some of the songs he sang - but not really in the same way. What we are talking about is a major dissociation of sensiblity. folkmusic is in the hands of one class. and as Orwell says - if there is any hope - its with the proles. you saw the reaction on Mudcat when No Fixed abode said last week they were going to do some folk gigs in caravan sites. People were saying - oh yeh - you'll be singing Agadoo and The Birdie Song. you gotta face it richard we are talking about a movement which cries itself to sleep about the plight of poachers in the 17th century, sailors in the 18th century, child factory workers in the 19th century, people in the tenches in the 1st world war - but when modern working class people hove into view - they hold their noses. |
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21 Jul 08 - 03:05 AM (#2393889) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: Richard Bridge All very full of conscience Al, but your point was that the English were forced to move out of economic circumstance, so that the localised forms became diffused. That applies equally to the other cultures I mentioned, if not more so. I don't think you'll find a more socially inclusive and left-leaning world than folk. At the folk ale I went to this weekend just past, I did a couple of socialist songs, and it transpired that the host side included 9 current or ex shop stewards. Your assertion that the folk movement (if there is such a thing) holds its nose when the working class appear is, I think, simply wrong. |
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21 Jul 08 - 03:12 AM (#2393891) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: Big Al Whittle Just seen the folk proms on telly. Martin Simpson (doing trad ballads - never any good with money and Creeping Jane type songs where the stories move at a fair old lick and force him to rein in his overwhelming technique are great, but on most of the trad pieces - they are long slow songs to start with -Martin's guitar makes them interminable) and Bellowhead (Up to the rigs of London Town with a brass section lifted from Paul Bunyan or any one of those ghastly operas Stravinsky used to write with WH Auden). Seriously - would anyone confuse this with a music that's supposed to have working class roots? and as for re-tuning. surely it would have been worth taking extra guitars and getting someone to help you set the stage and exit it. And I don't want to hear any more lectures about training my ears - if EVER there was a place for a digital tuner! sod the tradition! Forget the tradition - let's try for listenable. |
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21 Jul 08 - 03:20 AM (#2393893) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: Richard Bridge Oh, yes, and that dragged me off the main point. I am pretty clear that the general reaction here (ie here, on the Mudcat) at least to every suggestion that English traditions should be preserved, every suggestion that the English should sing the songs and play the tunes that are English roots, and every suggestion that the English might be more reserved about adopting Irish, American, Scottish, or other tunes and songs, is to label it racist. It is demonstrated time and time again. One only has to mention England/English culture/English traditions and there is a chorus of disapproval that makes Winston Churchill's evaluation of the proud traditions of the Navy ("Rum, sodomy, and the lash") seem quite muted, and a series of flanking attacks along the lines of "Ah, but who is English any more" (that apply equally as much if not more to other nationalities and cultures). One understands of course that the BNP's adoption of folkloric motifs muddies the waters, as the Hitler regime's arrogation of "Volk" did in Germany in the 30s, (and indeed so do some of the unfortunate postings of some 'catters, no names no pack drill at this point) but that is not the be-all and end-all of the issue. |
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21 Jul 08 - 03:55 AM (#2393908) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: Big Al Whittle Richard, for chrissake why shouldn't you feel comfortable singing The wind that Shakes the barley cos you've got a public school accent? Patrick Pearse himself taught in private school. Do you think he sounded like muck farmer from the back of beyond. do you think a Chinese person would catch the difference in accent between you and christy moore? Believe you me - most French and german people wouldn't. Any more than you would detect the differences between the various departments of France and the way they speak. Anyway - if thy right eye offend thee - pluck it out. Try and do it in another accent. If Martin carthy and Mike waterson went about talking in the accents they sing in, they'd never get the shopping done! And I'm damn certain you could make as good a stab at it as martin simpson and bellowhead. If only for the reason that you care about what the song has to say. |
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21 Jul 08 - 04:04 AM (#2393909) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: Terry McDonald So, WLD, just what tradition do you think you belong to? Singing Dick Miles' 'Battle of Bosworth Field' in an American accent struck me as a little strange. Nice guitar playing, though. |
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21 Jul 08 - 04:13 AM (#2393911) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: George Papavgeris Thirty five years ago I used to sing The Curagh Of Kildare & Boys Of Bedlam with a clear and unadulterated Greek accent. For money, too. It didn't stop me then, it wouldn't stop me now. I love the traditional songs but not because the make me feel that "I am in that world" or even "of that world", like putting on clothes or a hat to pretend I am someone else. I follow Martin's advice - I can't damage the song by singing it. |
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21 Jul 08 - 04:22 AM (#2393916) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: Dave the Gnome Al - ever heard of the potato famine and the highland clearances - and god alone knows what we did to the Welsh, but i don't suppose it was any better What does that have to do with the proce of fish? Have you never heard of the Lancashire cotton famine? The Peterloo massacre? The English 'civil war'? All countries have had it rough at some point. I think the point that Richard was making is that if it os OK to have a Scottish, Irish and Welsh tradition, why is it no so for the English? I fully take your point about it no longer being relevant to todays society but it's no less relevant, or less enjoyable, than, for instance, the latest Narnia film or the latest Terry Pratchett book. Why do you feel that folk music has to be relevant anyway? I watch the news, but I also like to read historical novels. What is the difference between the latest exploits of Bernard Cornwells 'Sharpe' and John Kellys rendition of any other Napoleonic sagas? Cheers Dave |
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21 Jul 08 - 04:57 AM (#2393933) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: GUEST,Betsy at Work I wonder if Richard feels that there may be some group of well- connected ,Politically Correct nutters, might lining up the possibility , of exercising some control over things like Morris Dancing because it could upset parts of Britain's multi cultural society. My suggestion may be laughable, but there are nutters out there who don't like the indigenous population expressing their British traditions. I'm quite surprised that some HSE R.Sole hasn't stepped in to make Morris Dancers complete a risk assessment before performing and wear goggles to avoid flying splinters. Shudder the thought !!! |
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21 Jul 08 - 05:16 AM (#2393940) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: Jim Carroll Not to sing Irish songs because they don't suit your taste or accent is fair enough - not to sing them because you 'don't like the Irish and they don't like us' or 'believe that they are all terrorists', is as racist as saying you don't sing West Indian songs because 'they are all here to steal our jobs and women'. The Anglo-Irish repertoire has some of the best versions of British songs and ballads as are to be found anywhere, and native Irish songs like 'Brave Michael Power', 'Sprightly Young Damsel', 'Lismore Turkeys', 'Well of Spring Water', 'The Devil and Bailiff McGlinn', 'Seven Irishmen' and 'Farmer Michael Hayes'..... and many, many are imminently singable wherever the English language is spoken and Anglicise perfectly. Bert Lloyd sang a number of Irish (and Canadian) songs - and nobody noticed. Anybody with a serious interest in ballads would be barmy not to take a look at the 50-odd Irish versions which have turned up over the last four decades. Can't find the quote but Child wrote somewhere "I have no doubt that the continuing story of the ballad is to be found in Ireland", and he wrote to 'Notes and Queries' requesting that people search the 'non-Celtic' repertoire for them. To confine your repertoire to 'English' songs (whatever that means) is odd, to say the least. Jim Carroll |
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21 Jul 08 - 05:18 AM (#2393942) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: Big Al Whittle 'just what tradition do you think you belong to? Singing Dick Miles' 'Battle of Bosworth Field' in an American accent struck me as a little strange. nice guitar playing though' well that particular guitar was made in china (hand made someons hands made it!) - although - the chinese nicked the guitar design - (i am reliably informed) from the martin company. i tend to think of myself as a member of the global village - although I have supported myself most of my life by singing for English audiences - who usually have understood me - even if I wasn't always appreciated. for your information English working class people have sang in American accents for over a hundred years now - since American acts got very popular of the English music hallin the 1880's. Ian Campbell once told me his Dad's main singing was Al Jolson. dick Miles's song and his vision of Richard was very 20th century - i seem to recall I was trying to sound english on that recording. Obviously not echt deutsch enough for the folk police. anyway - i stick by what i said - if you wanna sing The wind that Shakes the Barley , Richard. you should feel free to sing it. You never know - you never know - that might be the missing part of the jigsaw - the bit we're all looking for to render our folk culture comprehensible. |
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21 Jul 08 - 06:14 AM (#2393972) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: Waddon Pete If you haven't already done so, listen to this interview! Interview The wise words may help. Best wishes, Peter |
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21 Jul 08 - 06:18 AM (#2393978) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: TheSnail Richard Bridge I told him that the general reaction to an Engishman saying such a thing was to label him a racist or BNP member and he seemed not fully in agreement. Eh? Where are you getting this from? You introduced the racist/BNP link and the chap didn't agree. I have been involved in Morris and traditional English music for an awfully longtime and nobody has ever called me a racist. It is true that the far right keep trying to get their filthy hands on it. We had a chap nosing in around here a couple of years ago. He was told (by me) that his views would not be welcome in the folk scene and, despite his apparently genuine enthusiasm for traditional song, he has hardly been seen since. The only way to keep them out is to claim it for yourself for its intrinsic worth as art and culture rather than as a symbol of English nationalism and to stop telling anyone who shows an interest that it carries a racist tag. |
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21 Jul 08 - 06:22 AM (#2393980) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: Ruth Archer "Ian Campbell once told me his Dad's main singing was Al Jolson." But it wasn't his mum's! She sang a lovely version of Bunch of Thyme... |
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21 Jul 08 - 06:38 AM (#2393990) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: Big Al Whittle A fabulous, enriching and humbling interview Pete. Many thanks. |
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21 Jul 08 - 06:40 AM (#2393993) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: Phil Edwards To confine your repertoire to 'English' songs (whatever that means) is odd, to say the least. True, but there's a difference between "English performers should do more English material" and "English performers should only do English material". I think the first of these is quite a reasonable statement; I don't believe Richard is saying the second. But there's a bigger point here which is genuinely political. Ireland, Scotland and England have all got many different regional traditions; nobody would say that there's a single tradition that includes Buttered Peas and Elsie Marley, Come Write Me Down and Ee By Gum But I'm Cowd. In the case of Ireland and Scotland, what makes it reasonable to overlook those differences and talk about 'Irish' or 'Scottish' traditional music is the history of the country: what unites the Scottish traditions is that they're music of the people of Scotland, a country that's been ruled by England for the last 300 years. England's been its own boss since 1066; English nationalism has an army and a navy. Unlike Scotland and Ireland, there's no theme of rebellious popular nationalism that can tie all the different English musics together. (I believe this is the kind of unifying theme that the more radical Revivalists were looking for, particularly in the quest for industrial folk song.) I think you could say you were into West Country folk song, Lancashire folk song or Northumbrian folk song without anyone batting an eyelid; English folk song just sounds a bit, well, patriotic. |
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21 Jul 08 - 07:49 AM (#2394040) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: GUEST,Shimrod When I first heard 'The Raggle Taggle Gypsies' at school, at age ten, I liked it immediately. I didn't think, "hhmm, obviously an English song with, possibly, slight racist overtones on a number of possible levels and no longer relevant to working class people like me and my family (father a sheet-metal worker, WLD - about as working class as you can get!). By singing it I may be betraying my class and should be really concentrating on this new-fangled, American Rock 'n' Roll stuff wot other workers kids like me like, even though I don't like it". I just liked 'The Raggle Taggle Gypsies'. 50 years on I now know about racism, the plight of the Romany people, the struggles of the British Working Class and Folk Song and the oral tradition. I've even met the great grand-daughters of Emma Overd, the Somerset singer who sang 'The Raggle Taggle Gypsies' to Cecil Sharp. And I still like 'The Raggle Taggle Gypsies' and other songs from the British Isles like it. And I have a deep dislike, bordering on contempt for much commercial, popular music. I also have a deep antipathy from those tiresome people who will insist that those things that I happen to like, or am interested in, are somehow politically incorrect or "not relevant" and I should be interested in something else. Such people remind me of those other tiresome people who insist on bringing Jesus into everything. Are you listening, WLD? |
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21 Jul 08 - 08:02 AM (#2394047) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: Big Al Whittle jesus, not that Shimrod bugger again! |
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21 Jul 08 - 08:49 AM (#2394078) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: Terry McDonald Pip Radish - and there was I thinking that it was the Scots who'd ruled England since 1707 (or even 1603. And 'England's been its own boss since 1066' - really? So the Conquest didn't happen and all our words to do with the law and government aren't French? That's so nice to know. Thanks, very illuminating. |
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21 Jul 08 - 08:59 AM (#2394085) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: Phil Edwards Terry - England's been its own boss since 1066' - really? So the Conquest didn't happen Of course it did. That's why I dated the last transfer of power to 1066 and not to 1042, say. I've never heard anyone seriously suggest that the Act of Union - or the Union of the Crowns - inaugurated Scottish rule over England. Perhaps you're the first. |
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21 Jul 08 - 09:21 AM (#2394103) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: Terry McDonald Irony, Pip, irony. |
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21 Jul 08 - 10:15 AM (#2394160) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: semi-submersible |
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21 Jul 08 - 10:18 AM (#2394163) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: semi-submersible How exclusive can traditions afford to be, folk? Do I have a claim to Canadian traditions from the other side of my country thousands of miles away? How about regions of various British isles from which most of my grand-, great-grand, or multi-great-grandparents came? If traditions did not spread to new populations how would they survive? Do traditions only "live" dried and preserved in scholarly records? Hah! Some traditions mutated and migrated to the blogosphere where they breed like rabbits in GarageBand mash-ups and YouTube clips while some people argue about who may perform new songs about old battles. An original tradition sounds to me as improbable as a pure race. |
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21 Jul 08 - 10:35 AM (#2394177) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: GUEST,Shimrod Yes, it's me, WLD! I notice that you managed to introduce "jesus" into the proceedings - you'll be telling us that he loves the Working Class and REAL Working Class Music next ... ? |
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21 Jul 08 - 12:47 PM (#2394305) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: Big Al Whittle he loves us all, and forgives us all our sins apart from the whited sepluchres and people who voted for Thatcher. people like that could be looking at a long time walking across the lake of fire, listening to all the crap music they have been pretending to like, hoping to impress their innate superiority on us lowly humble Brotherhood of Man fans. jesus hates that sort sort of things.When he scourged the money lenders from the temple - he chucked their topic samplers after them saying, Know ye not brethen that Sheath and Knife is a ponderous load of old bum...... something like that anyway..... |
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21 Jul 08 - 05:49 PM (#2394569) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: GUEST,Shimrod I sense that you're floundering a bit, WLD. Waffle, waffle, waffle ... And I'm certainly not pretending to like the music I like - neither do I believe that it makes me innately "superior" to anyone - why would I do that? And I can definitely confirm that I never, ever voted for Thatcher! Oh yes, remind me who or what a "whited sepulchre" is ... (?) |
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21 Jul 08 - 06:58 PM (#2394615) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: Big Al Whittle I confess the clarity and brilliance of your insight into folk music has quite wrongfooted me. I am indeed floundering and lost for words - overwhelmed by your perspicacity. to the the best of my knowledge and memory - it was Acts of the Apostles - early on, where Paul and Timothy were put in prison. paul reckoned that the blokes who did it weren't up to much. Like a charnel house that is whitewashed. corruption lies within. However - last time i looked in a bible was forty years ago and the rest - as always I will stand corrected. So much for - judge not, lest ye be judged! That Paul, he didn't stick to the rules. |
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21 Jul 08 - 07:16 PM (#2394622) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: Big Al Whittle Nah it was paul and silas - I'm sure. one of these guys with a walk on part! |
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22 Jul 08 - 05:45 PM (#2395439) Subject: RE: Does it matter which tradition? From: Gurney Without wishing to upset anyone, - really, honestly, I will take mild issue with WLD about his much earlier statement about the part 'we' played in the Irish potato famine and the Highland clearances. The famine happened, but it was not caused by 'the English.' It was a blight on that vegetable. It was exacerbated (as a famine) by unsympathetic absentee landlords, many or most of whom were English and English residents, but also by Irish landowners. At that time there was little sympathy for working punters, and this was an example of that. Landowners. Not 'the English' as a race. The Highland clearances were another manifestation of the same attitude, and in that case there were again also local landlords heavily involved. There was money to be made letting out the shooting, but those landless tenants were in the way, so they were removed. Landlords again. Exactly the same thing happened in England. It was there called the Enclosures, and there was even less justice involved, because landlords stole publically-owned land, which had been granted to local smallholders by an earlier monarch. You can't trust landlords. Never could. (Takes off flat cap, exits left...) |