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31 Jul 08 - 02:25 PM (#2402463) Subject: traditional singers and competitions From: The Sandman It's tends not to get bandied about too much but back in the fifties the EFDSS ran competitions. They put elderly singers like George 'Pop' Maynard in front of a panel of judges and humiliated them by telling them what was wrong with their singing. They alienated a great many people by their crass behaviour; dig out some of the people who were there if you don't believe me. so spoke Jim Carroll. are traditional singers some form of sub species,who cant decide for themselves,whether to enter a competition? the EFDSS,according to Jim Carroll put traditional singers there,did they make them take the kings shilling,or did they hijack them in the middle of the night and force them into Cecil Sharp house. all the traditional singers I ever met,Fred Jordan, Willie Scott,Bob Roberts,BobLewis,Geoff Wesley,to name a few,seemed quite articulate,and able to make up their own minds about entering competitions. Should competitions exclude traditional singers and traditional musicians but only include revival musicians,singer songwriters,and revival singers of traditional songs. has anyone else ever heard of the evil EFDSS,forcing singers into competitions and making them sing. |
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31 Jul 08 - 02:30 PM (#2402472) Subject: RE: traditional singers and competitions From: Nigel Parsons Meanwhile there are still folk singing competitions at the Welsh National Eisteddfod |
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31 Jul 08 - 02:34 PM (#2402478) Subject: RE: traditional singers and competitions From: Richard Bridge I thought there might be. Do you feel they assist in promulgating Welsh folk music and song? |
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31 Jul 08 - 04:10 PM (#2402539) Subject: RE: traditional singers and competitions From: PoppaGator To me, music is not a competitive sport. True, some players are more accompplished and/or talented than others, and band members are inevitably put together through some kind of process wherein one person is selected in favor of another. Still, I've never understood these competitions that are held to determine the "best" singer or picker or harpsichordist or whatever. Seems to me that anyone skilled enough to qualify for, or even to consider entering, such a competition is pretty darn good ~ so much so that picking a single competitor as the "best" might well be an exercise in politics or a beauty contest, not anything meaningfully musical. I know very little about the classical-musician profession, but I know that cutthroat competitions are at the heart of what young players have to go through to establish a career. And of coruse, we have similar contests in many subgenres of folk music, too. Mainstream mindless pop music now has those televised mega-competitions that I never watch and hesitiate even to name. What little I know about them includes the telling fact that some contestants who notably fell short of "winning" have gone on the greater success in the musical marketplace than some of those who won. That, I think, says something about ALL musical competitions. |
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31 Jul 08 - 04:42 PM (#2402562) Subject: RE: traditional singers and competitions From: Frank_Finn I cannot speak for EFDSS but as a member of Comhaltas and a bit of a singer, I have competed and enjoyed it. I always treat it seriously and try my best based on what I consider to be what traditional singing should sound like - choice of song - style - etc. Based on what the judges write about my singing sometimes, - some of them do not agree wih what I sing, or the way I sing it. But some do. And there lies the the kernel of the situation. If you put all the judges in a room and got them to discuss and agree a set of standards re Irish traditional singing (English or Irish language), I doubt if they could do it. However in simply competing - or better still, listening to competitions, one is in the company of singers or lovers of song and that is enough. One gets the opportunity to discuss the merits or otherwise of singers and songs and it is a great learning environment - in all sorts of ways. But as with music, competitions and competing is there simply to hone some skills. Far more important is to sing for enjoyment. Unfortunately I know musicians and singers who have been ruined by the need to compete and win and who have neglected to aquire the ability to gel with and join in music and/or singing sessions. I also think that all genuine singers are, by default, musicians. Some may not have the ability to translate what is in their head to their fingers. Of course also all genuine musicians are also singers. Some may not have the ability to translate what is in their head to their voicebox. |
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31 Jul 08 - 07:06 PM (#2402667) Subject: RE: traditional singers and competitions From: Barry Finn EFDSS ran competitions of traditional singers! For what reason? Why didn't they present traditional singers as singers! What was the pleasure of having them compete? Was that the only way they were offering to present them. Seems to me that the presentation was flawed from the start. I think it would behove the presenters to have show cased the unique abilities of each singer & their styles rather than throw them to the lions. Does it matter that the singers had their own reason for excepting; be it their last chance to present, their only chance to compare their styles with others, they wanted thier last harrah, so they got up their by the free will. I would think that a traditional music society would care more about the differences in the singers, the songs, their quirks, the phrasing, ornamentation, etc then who was better. Put an 85 yr old whose vocie has lost alot over the yrs up with a 55 yr old & all you're gobnna get is the quality of the younger person's voice & you miss all the rest. Your presentation in asking these questions puzzels me. Why don't you just say what you mean. Tell us how you felt about this without bringing someone else's name into it & then ask others to comment on it. It's a fair enough question to ask? Is that all you're gonna ask on the subject, that they could've said no, that's not near the input you're asking of others. Barry |
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31 Jul 08 - 07:15 PM (#2402675) Subject: RE: traditional singers and competitions From: Barry Finn My apologies, I did not see the thread "EFDDSS and competitions". Now I quess I'll have to read that on 1st & come back & change my direction on this one. Barry |
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01 Aug 08 - 04:18 AM (#2402890) Subject: RE: traditional singers and competitions From: Jim Carroll I really wasn't going to bother with this idiocy anymore. If the Cap'n can see nothing wrong with taking elderly singers out of their environment and making them behave like performing dogs to satisy his crass mind-games - there doesn't seem much point. The idea of somebody offering to put up money for competitions then having the arrogance to elect himself onto the judging panel is a little too near the 'cash for honours' affair for me. As the 'competitions' idea appears to be a non-starter anyway - life really is too short to bother with this garbage - I'm off to find an intelligent wall to talk to. Jim Carroll |
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01 Aug 08 - 06:49 AM (#2402930) Subject: RE: traditional singers and competitions From: GUEST,Auldtimer Competitions were/are a feature of many Scottish festivals including TMSA, Traditional Music and Song Association, festivals. Many TMSA singing competitions were eppics, the men's singing on a fiew occations at Kinross running from morning into the late afternoon with twenty entrants at two songs each. The women's competitions were as fiercely faught and, on ballance, a higher standard. They are great fun to enter and great entertainment to watch. But with that extra edge of nerves to sharpen/blunt performance. I recomend them but don't get too serious it's not life or death. |
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01 Aug 08 - 08:14 AM (#2402966) Subject: RE: traditional singers and competitions From: GUEST,Volgadon "the EFDSS,according to Jim Carroll put traditional singers there,did they make them take the kings shilling,or did they hijack them in the middle of the night and force them into Cecil Sharp house." Yes, have you never heard All Things Being Silent? |
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01 Aug 08 - 08:29 AM (#2402977) Subject: RE: traditional singers and competitions From: sian, west wales As the Eisteddfod model has been mentioned both here and in the other EFDSS thread, I suppose I should comment. Although I am not a keen attendee of any of the Eisteddfodau (pl.) - from local through to International level - I do work on the trad music stand most years and I am also on the Standing Committee for folk music within the National Eisteddfod structure. First - Eisteddfodau are traditional _structures_, not traditional arts. They are competitive arts festivals, not competitive traditional music festivals. Even when the National visits particularly 'folky' areas in Wales (it moves around), the content can still be less than 20% traditional arts, including literature, dance, music, visual art and craft. The International in Llangollen, which Bert mentions in the other thread and has mentioned in others as well, was set up primarily as a Peace initiative following WWII and uses competition as a framework for bringing the world's ethnic communities together. A couple of days are given over to National Music & Dance; it is _not_ a folk festival either, but there are people around the world who have very fond memories of it because of the friends they've made. "Result", as my godchildren would say. So - back to the National Eisteddfod, and all the local Eisteddfodau and youth Eisteddfodau which are on the same pattern ... Yes, there are a number of competitions which draw their material from the traditional repertoire. I've chosen my words there carefully. These days, the singing is definitely NOT judged using any 'traditonal music' criteria and it breaks my heart to hear the competitors who go through from the preliminary competitions. Many, many years ago, one of Wales' major poets (I think he may have been the Eist. Archdruid at the time) pointed out that a person shouldn't be _able_ (that is, physically _able_) to compete in both the Classical solo and Folk solo. He recognized that the techniques and deliveries should be poles apart. (Another aside: didn't Paul Robeson or someone once say his great regret was that his voice had been trained to the point where he could not sing spirituals as they should be sung? Anyhoooo ...) Today, the Eisteddfod seems to have forgotten that completely. Instrumentally, the National Eisteddfod has picked up its socks a bit and has been running competitions for folk groups. It got off to a shakey start partly because of the choice of adjudicators, but it's picking up; competitors are coming for the general hwyl (like craic) of the Eisteddfod and giving the comp a try on the off chance they can pick up some booze money. Fair enough. Also, the Eisteddfod (Nat.) is coming to realize that society is changing and there is a real market for non-comp activity as part of the festival so we're slowly getting more workshops fitted in to the schedule. The long-term aim is to have a 'shed' specifically for workshops. It was recently pointed out to me, by someone who knows more about the history of collecting in Wales _as well as _ of the Eisteddfod, that collection and practice of folk music was "placed under the wing" of the Eisteddfod originally because it could offer a framework for encouraging collectors (originally). In fact, this proved to be quite successful: setting competions for people to present manuscripts of trad music. Unfortunately, the performance side was quickly taken over by those who believe(d) that the only real music was that sung in the Western Classical style ... so it's almost always left out the real 'tradition bearers' by design. Another problem with the Eisteddfod is that it breeds 'competitors' rather than musicians. Once someone stops winning their category, they stop making the music. Honest. This happens. Hard to believe, I know. Into the bargain, it breeds musicians who latch onto the set piece, learn it, stand on their mark under the spotlight, deliver, and leave. This does nothing to develop good performance practice. I blame this on the fact that we have so few good young trad musicians compared to Ireland or Scotland. However, someone has recently pointed out to me that there is another important difference between Wales and Ire/Scot. Wales has had many years of Welsh-language broadcasting and, if you talk to many young people today, they'll say they want to go into television. And they can! There's a fair bit of work for Welsh speakers - whether or not they actually have any depth of cultural knowledge. Indigenous language broadcasting in Ire/Scot is not so ... let's say "far advanced", tho the description is contentious ... and musicians have to find their own way more. Good thing. I'd say this makes them more innovative. And close to their roots. O crap. I'm rambling, and I should be working. Personal opinion: I don't like competition and I don't like competing. Some people do, and 'good luck with that'. Whether it encourages or discourages traditional styles hinges on a lot of external factors apart from the mere availability of competitive events. I probably won't be able to contribute much to this thread as I have to be at the Eisteddfod a fair bit over the next 10 days. Let's keep it friendly ... sian |