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13 Aug 08 - 03:11 PM (#2412765) Subject: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Wesley S The new movie "Tropic Thunder" is taking a lot of heat for their repeated use of the word "retard" - and their jokes about special needs people. Folks seen to be seeing this word in a new light - as highly offensive. And it should be - the way I see it. Are the protests of this movie over the top? Will they call attention to the issue? Or just add up to more free publicity and more ticket sales? What do you think? Commentary #1 |
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13 Aug 08 - 03:13 PM (#2412768) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Wesley S Commentary # 2 |
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13 Aug 08 - 03:13 PM (#2412769) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: CarolC I thought that word had fallen into disrepute a long time ago. |
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13 Aug 08 - 03:36 PM (#2412789) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Little Hawk It has. That's why Shane always uses the word "retread" instead. |
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13 Aug 08 - 03:51 PM (#2412804) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Wesley S For once please Little Hawk - a serious discussion? Do you mind? As the father of an autistic son I can promise you that this word - retard - is still be used. And it's hurtful. If not to my son then to his parents. |
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13 Aug 08 - 04:05 PM (#2412812) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Liz the Squeak Oddly enough, there's an episode of CSI that puts it perfectly. Grissom, after investigating the murder of a Downs Syndrome young man, explains exactly what retard means to the cowboy who murdered him. It means to cause to move slowly, to delay or impede progress, and fitted the murderer to a T. LTS |
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13 Aug 08 - 04:08 PM (#2412816) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Little Hawk Of course it is hurtful to anyone to whom it is directed. And yes, it's still used...mostly by preteens and teens when they are harassing their peers. It's a standard insult word among school children, directed toward anyone at all whom they want to pick on, and if they hear that adults are thinking of banning it altogether in public discourse then they will be ever more irresistably attracted toward using it, I think. I know how the sadistic minds of adolescent schoolboys work, believe me. I was the target of such pests and bullies for many, many years...until I finally escaped thankfully into the adult world where people are usually a bit more careful what they say to others. That's partly why I so enjoy satirizing the behaviour of such ignorant idiots in my stories about Shane, and I use the word "retread" in those stories as a euphemism so you will get what he is doing and intending, but you won't have to see the dreadful word itself in print. My point being that people like Shane who call other people by some derogatory word like that are themselves the living demonstration of the very stupidity and incompetence that they wish to pin on other people. I don't think it's wise to react to the cover without reading the book. I haven't seen the movie. Therefore I am not in a position to decide whether its use of the word "retard" or "retarded" is inappropriate. What I object to is people going hysterical over "covers" while not reading books. That has happened around quite a number of trigger words in the past few decades, the famous "N" word being the most notorious of those. The word itself, however, isn't the vital matter...the conscious intention behind the use of a word and the context in which it is used are the vital matters. To look into that, one has to read the book. |
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13 Aug 08 - 04:46 PM (#2412849) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: olddude for someone who does all kinds of work for Autistic kids like myself, I cannot comment on a public forum how I feel about that. Only that it is cruel and heartless. I see first hand the struggle families with autistic kids go through and it breaks my heart. Shame on them and shame on anyone who supports the movie. |
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13 Aug 08 - 04:54 PM (#2412855) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: pdq It appears that the movie director is Ben Stiller who was once considered a comedian, although he was not even slightly funny. His wife tried very hard, though. |
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13 Aug 08 - 04:56 PM (#2412860) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Bobert Sorry, I thought this was a John McDummie thread... My bad... B;~) |
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13 Aug 08 - 05:03 PM (#2412872) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "It appears that the movie director is Ben Stiller who was once considered a comedian, although he was not even slightly funny" I disagree, I think he is extremely funny and creative. As for the use of the "r" word, it should not be used in the real world in such a fashion, HOWEVER, this is a movie we are talking about. Unless anyone on this thread has seen the film, how can you discuss whether it was proper or not? |
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13 Aug 08 - 05:16 PM (#2412880) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: PoppaGator Ben Stiller is a borderline-OK comedian, to my mind. but not nearly as talented as either of his parents. From what I've seen in the TV ads, this movie looks to be pretty medicocre, but hardly evil. I hestiate to put Mr Stiller the Younger in the same category as Mark Twain, but boycotting a film because its stupid characters spout offensive language is not really much different from banning "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" from schools and libraries because it contains "the N word." |
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13 Aug 08 - 05:40 PM (#2412902) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: olddude seems to me not much of a comic that has to do it at the expense of the most vulnerable of our society. Anyone can see anything they want and that is ok with me. I won't only because it is too personal and I don't find the guy even a little funny. I saw several of his movies, my kids think he is funny. I actually don't so I wouldn't go see it even if he didn't use a word that I detest more than I can even state. But some folks here do make a good point. No need for censorship. I just won't spend my dollars on it especially since it triggers a sore spot with me. |
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13 Aug 08 - 05:57 PM (#2412926) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Donuel Even the Cave man from the Geico commercials think this is a tempest in a crack pot. |
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13 Aug 08 - 06:21 PM (#2412953) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: catspaw49 Haven't seen the movie......doesn't matter. Retarded is a word where context is everything. As the PC era leapt upon us with many needed changes, it also left a real gap in places. The local agencies which govern and administer some funding to special needs people are generally known as MR/DD.....meaning Mentally Retarded/Developmentally Delayed. My son's clinical diagnosis was originally "Severe Mental Retardation" although his education and training over the years has resulted in an upgrad to Serious/Moderate Mental Retardation. Now I'm damn near 60 but if some brokedick piece of shit walks up and says, "Is that kid a mental retard or what?".........Old Fart with bad heart will knock him flat. Damn near happened a few years ago but cooler heads (like Wayne and Karen who were worried about me)prevailed. On the other hand I have been talking to someone who obviously likes Tris (he's real likeable!) and I feel for them as they stammer around wanting to ask about him but scared to use the DREADED "R" WORD. Its hard for them as so many of the PC terms are kinda' dumb and really don't fit......so I bail them out. The difference in those two situations is night and day. The problem Wesley brings is both one of context and one of breaking the circle. Yeah.....I cuss.....a lot sometimes.......And I don't mind insulting the jackasses of the world or playing the dozens. But we need to break the chain on a few of the words. Retard is one. Listen to a group of teenagers, many whom know better, and you're likely to hear someone called a gay retard! I damn near killed Michael one day. He just never actually associated the word with his brother! Connie's boys have an Uncle with severe CP, their parents have both worked in Mental Health facilities, neither Connie nor Wayne even cuss let alone use that kind of terminology and yet............I grabbed Ricky one day after overhearing one and asked him what the hell his problem was and would he like to take on Uncle Pat. Like Michael, it didn't have the "hit-home" meaning til I pointed it out. I'm proud to say he now uses "Jadrool" ( a personal favorite-Italian street lingo for bum ) as his best perjorative term. That's enough......I hate the movies that play on those terms for a cheap laugh......Cheap it ain't. But look at it this way. Listen to what you hear everyday and call the people who use those terms on it then. Its hard to argue with or reeducate a piece of film. Spaw |
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13 Aug 08 - 06:22 PM (#2412954) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Rapparee "Retard" is a verb, and it was first used in child psychology in the sense of "His development is retarded" -- a nice way of saying that the person isn't at the point where the average member of his age group should be. It was from this use that it became a term of abuse. In the original sense of "retarded development" or "retarded growth" or "retarded momentum" it is a valid and indeed valuable word. |
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13 Aug 08 - 06:24 PM (#2412956) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Rapparee By the way, I don't plan to see the movie. Actually, I just heard about it today in an NPR story. Apparently there's some racist overtones as well. |
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13 Aug 08 - 06:28 PM (#2412959) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: catspaw49 Yeah Rap.......that's it........short and sweet and to the point! That's what I meant to say ........................................fuckin' limpdick jackass.............................................................Spaw |
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13 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM (#2412969) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Jeri If it's used to hurt someone, it's not funny. My guess is that people see the movie, think the word's funny and use it, and somebody who's been called that will hear it and feel hurt. I don't give a rat's ass about people's offended sensibilities. I care plenty about not hurting folks though. I suspect there isn't anyone alive who hasn't been made fun of at some point. It causes reactions from embarrassment to downright terror, and I've felt the extreme myself. I can't imagine what it must be like to deal with that daily. I won't use the word. Poking fun at people who DO use it isn't bad, and Little Hawk's chronicles of Shane are pretty good. I also won't see the movie. I really don't think Ben Stiller's funny. (Spaw, congrats on Tris's upgrade!) |
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13 Aug 08 - 07:27 PM (#2413000) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Little Hawk I find Ben Stiller moderately funny at times, but not memorably funny. I very much doubt that he intended anything hurtful in this movie. As Spaw said, context is everything when dealing with a word like "retarded" (which was once a perfectly normal word not intended to insult anyone, but rather to describe a condition...but some people then coined the derogatory schoolyard insult "REE-tard" for their own unpleasant purposes...and we see a general reaction to that now in society). It think it is best that people look into the context and the intention before they decide they have been insulted by a mere word. Groups of people loudly protesting that movie have decided to be insulted by the word itself, period, seems to me. If so, they may be missing the boat. I'm neither defending the movie nor attacking it. I have no opinion on it at this point. |
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13 Aug 08 - 07:59 PM (#2413021) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Well said Little Hawk! As Spaw said, context is everything - which is probably why Spaw can get away with calling people "limpdick jackass" and other inflammatory terms. We do not judge Spaw by choice of words, only by context. However, Spaw also said "Listen to what you hear everyday and call the people who use those terms on it then." Agreed! Perhaps some of the people who are running around with pitchforks and torches will stop and think that perhaps Stiller is doing exactly that. These are probably the same people who burned Beatle albums, Catcher in the Rye and Huck Finn - simply out of ignorance to take the time to understand the context. |
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13 Aug 08 - 08:26 PM (#2413034) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: The Fooles Troupe Interestingly enough, in Australia, and I suspect it comes from our British origins, we have a massive range of expressions, which are quite commonly used to refer to certain people in a way that is not intended (usually, although some people seem to intend nastiness) to be anything other than a sort of PC. A few sandwiches short of a picnic Not playing with a full deck (of cards) and so many more... |
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13 Aug 08 - 08:38 PM (#2413042) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: olddude Nothing ignorant about hurting people and sick kids ... what crap the only think ignorant here is thinking it isn't . Like I said anyone can see anything they want but don't tell me it is ok cause it isn't. Huck Finn, you know what, that N term was acceptable in that timeframe it isn't now and it is a term that if someone used around me they would wish they had not likewise the term retard. But to get a laugh you have to use a term that is so hard for many people ahows a lack of comedy skills. You know what, people with autistic kids go to movies to get away from it. Try living with it then tell me it is ok. So those people go to a comedy just to have it thrown in their face for a laugh right. Middle finger as Bruce says pick the hand you want. lets get a laugh out of calling a sick kid a retard huh .. .yea right ... Call it as you see but so will I. It is trying to justify a laugh for any excuse but if you experienced it you would think different. |
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13 Aug 08 - 09:03 PM (#2413052) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor I think this piece sums up the controversy pretty well. MSNBC.com piece. In the movie Stiller's character is referred to as a "retard" 16 times, apparently as a pejorative. certainly as an insult. I think its cheap and dirty and thoughtless, typical of the writing of Ben Stiller. he's OK doing other people's stuff, but his writing is awful. |
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13 Aug 08 - 09:17 PM (#2413064) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "Nothing ignorant about hurting people and sick kids ... what crap" Old dude- please try to pay attention. I agree with you, hurting people and sick kids is wrong. Here is the tough part that people just aren't grasping - NO ONE who has commented here has seen the film. You are simply talking out of your ass when you state that it was said "as an insult". You just do not know in what context it was said. Was the person or person using the phrase being portrayed as vile? I would hope so. YOU just don't know, so when everyone make claims without having seen the film, you are following in the paths of the bookburners who never stopped to read the book. I have not seen the film, and if the term was used to get a laugh, then it is very wrong and deserves to be boycotted. However, I have yet to hear someone who has seen the film make the claim. I just hear a lot of blind followers who get sucked in by the media, many of the same people who always complain about how the media uses people. I hate to tell you to look in the mirror, but you aren't thinking for yourself! |
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13 Aug 08 - 09:49 PM (#2413084) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Rapparee ________brokedickmamalucca________ |
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13 Aug 08 - 09:57 PM (#2413086) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Ron, Are you some sort of agent for this film saying that we should all pay the 8 dollars before we can say anything? I happen to believe the guy from the Rhode Island Special Olympics representitive and the Shrivers who claim to have seen it and who counted Stiller's character being called a retard 16 times. You don't have to get wet to talk about the rain my friend. Get off your high horse. |
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13 Aug 08 - 10:27 PM (#2413100) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "Are you some sort of agent for this film saying that we should all pay the 8 dollars before we can say anything?" Jack, you know very well that I am not saying that. I am very surprised at you - of all people - who can find a conspiracy in every news story, have failed to question and blindly follow. Then again, perhaps I am not surprised. I do believe the guy from the Rhode Island Special Olympics is upset and so are the Shrivers, but if you read the article - they did not claim to see the film. But perhaps you are right. In fact, perhaps we should also have Dustin Hoffman return his Oscar for "Rain Man". I think Jack Nicholson and the cast of "Cuckoo's Nest" should also issue an apology. Maybe the late Anne Bancroft and Patty Duke should have separated themselves from "The Miracle Worker". What is up with Daniel Day Lewis and that kid from "Elephant Man"? What were they thinking? Now, I am not claiming that "Tropic Thunder" is should be mentioned in the same sentence with any of those classic films, but I would like more information before I come to judgement. Stiller and crew could deserve a public tar and feather for all I know, but in addition to press releases from the Shrivers, I am also reading reviews that have a completely different take. |
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13 Aug 08 - 10:43 PM (#2413112) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: olddude If there are different reviews I would love to see them. All I see is what is consistent with this post but if there are others it would be good to see. Why would Dustin Hoffman apologize for Rain Man. He was not making fun of anyone. That was based on a true autistic person (forget his name) it pointed out very much how the nature of autism works. Jack the 7 year old that I help his family out in every way is exactly like that. A genius in reading and music but with the same autistic problems including the violence that goes with it. It is the nature of the disease. In all of the films above that you mentioned noone was using autism as the R laugh that I am reading Stiller is doing ... If you read up on autism you will find that rain man is quite accurate. In regard to the positive reviews I can't find any so please share because to be fair if there is another side we should know it |
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13 Aug 08 - 10:51 PM (#2413121) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Ron The guy from the special Olympics in Rhode Island said in the TV piece I linked to that he had counted the word "retarded" being used 16 times in the film. I am sure that he either saw the film or he read what he knows to be an accurate transcript or else he would have had nothing to count. I have seen the trailer for the film. I know the premise. Believe me Stiller will be receiving no acclaim for the portrayal of the disabled. In fact the character he is portraying, the one called "retard" 16 times, is based on Sly Stallone/Bruce Willis type action hero actors. |
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13 Aug 08 - 11:13 PM (#2413133) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "Why would Dustin Hoffman apologize for Rain Man. He was not making fun of anyone." NOW YOU GET IT!!!!!!! The question is - what is Stiller doing? You say you readng that he is making fun of autitic, but there are others who say that is just not true. Depending on who you read, he may be doing exactly the same thing as the others. Let's not forget Forest Gump!!!! "In fact the character he is portraying, the one called "retard" 16 times, is based on Sly Stallone/Bruce Willis type action hero actors. " Partially. It is also based on actors who take on roles of handicapped as a ploy to save failing careers and gain some attention. Think of all those actors who take rolls as someone with an incurable disease, handicap, or other challenge. If you watched the clip, the basis of the "16" times appears to come from a scene where Stiller and Downey characters are discussing roles they played. The character that Stiller played was in a movie where he played a challenged individual and the movie was a bomb and he received bad reviews. The character is questiong that he went "full retard" - which, in the clip I saw, was making fun of actors who are so shallow that they do not feel anything for the character they play but only take such roles to get in the spotlight. These are the unthinking and uncaring actors who show up at charity events just to get facetime with the camera and care nothing about the event. Stiller and the film are getting some acclaim. New York Times: http://movies.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/movies/13trop.html?th&# USA Today http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/reviews/2008-08-12-tropic-thunder_N.htm?csp=34 Roger Ebert http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080811/REVIEWS/593221592 Kurt Loder http://www.mtv.com/movies/news/articles/1592689/20080813/story.jhtml?rsspartner=rssYahooNewscrawler Cinecon http://www.cinecon.com/review.php?id=tropic-thunder |
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13 Aug 08 - 11:22 PM (#2413138) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: The Fooles Troupe "That was based on a true autistic person (forget his name)" I have seen documentaries of the real guy. |
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13 Aug 08 - 11:35 PM (#2413145) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: katlaughing It is also based on actors who take on roles of handicapped as a ploy to save failing careers and gain some attention. Think of all those actors who take rolls as someone with an incurable disease, handicap, or other challenge. Such as who? The ones I can think did a fantastic job, such as Hoffman, and others mentioned above. Rapaire, that's the best Spawlike posting I've seen in years!**bg** I heard an interview of Stiller on NPR and cannot say I was impressed, but I've also never found him particularly funny. I have no desire to waste time or money on any movie which uses such language...why feed my subconscious such trash and why support the trash-making? |
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13 Aug 08 - 11:48 PM (#2413154) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "Such as who? The ones I can think did a fantastic job, such as Hoffman, and others mentioned above." There are people who took exception to some of the names mentioned, including Tom Hanks for Gump, Debra Winger for "Terms of Endearment", and there have been a number of TV actors whose motives were questioned with some of the subject matter of made for TV films. But as you note, there are actors who do an exceptional job - such as Hoffman, and give people insight through their performance. Just maybe, there is an insight to be learned from this film. Kat- you have obviously made up your mind, and that is your right. If you do not find Stiller funny, don't go. There are a number of actors who I detest, and while I probably have missed some important films, that is my right. You have decided that the langauge is offensive and you feel it is trash - site unseen. You could be right, but you can also be wrong. Just think "Huck Finn". It would be a shame to give in to book burners and lose a classic like that. |
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14 Aug 08 - 12:49 AM (#2413183) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Its a Ben Stiller/Jack Black movie with "retard" jokes in it. Do you really need to know anything else? The picture of Jack Black in a blond wig should be enough. |
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14 Aug 08 - 09:45 AM (#2413471) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Bryn Pugh I am unlikely to see this film and so probably shouldn't comment. However, I have a ( much loved) nephew with Asperger's and the pejorative insult on this side of the pond was not "retard", but "mong", I assume, a contraction of the term which used to be applied to Down's kids, "mongol". Either word should IMO not be in the vocabulary of any decent-thinking person, as IMO vilely insulting, and very, very hurtful. |
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14 Aug 08 - 09:45 AM (#2413472) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Wesley S Ron - Do me a favor. Use the word "retard" as a noun in a sentence in a non-offensive way. Show mw how it can be done. Thanks. |
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14 Aug 08 - 09:53 AM (#2413482) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Little Hawk This is a tempest in a flippin' teapot...but it serves one great purpose. It allows people with a big flippin' CHIP on their shoulders to get REALLY FLIPPIN' WORKED UP AND RIGHTEOUSLY DAMN MAD!!!! about something and blow off some pent-up anger. Well, hooray. Go to town and enjoy your sense of wrath. I probably won't even bother to see this movie. The concept doesn't interest me much. On the other hand, I might rent it later on a slow night. If I do, then I'll finally get to see what all the big fuss was about, won't I? If not...shrug...I'm not gonna worry about it much. Not much at all. |
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14 Aug 08 - 09:58 AM (#2413492) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Wesley S Little Hawk - as far as I'm concerned you haven't got a dog in this hunt. So why are you so upset? Why should you care if I want to get upset when people use language of this sort to keep people in a box - to minimise their existense? |
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14 Aug 08 - 10:21 AM (#2413513) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Little Hawk (shrug) No big deal, I assure you. I'm not particularly upset...just a bit annoyed. I'm bored by this kind of discussion. I'm just really tired of seeing various self-righteous advocacy groups (from the extreme right wing religious types to the ultra-liberals to the gays to the anti-abortion people to the whatever the heck they are) raising absolute hell outside movie queus, that's all. They should just ignore the damn movie and not go to see it if they don't like it, seems to me. I'm offended by every dumb action movie that comes out which promotes the Rambo-style flag waving philosophy of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth"...but so what? I don't spend money on those movies. Neither do I picket them, wave a sign around, and raise hell with the people who wish to attend the movie, nor do I try to make them feel guilty about it. I just don't contribute to it by buying a ticket. THAT's the effective way to demonstrate your opinion. You follow me? I accept that the world is not all like me, they don't all do what I would do or like what I would like, and that's perfectly okay. |
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14 Aug 08 - 10:27 AM (#2413519) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "Ron - Do me a favor. Use the word "retard" as a noun in a sentence in a non-offensive way. Show mw how it can be done." I cannot, nor did I ever say anyone could - or should. The word - as a noun - is very offensive. It upsets me greatly to hear people use it as such and I would like to eradicate the use of words like this that are meant to hurt. It seems as though you are unable to grasp what I, and others are saying. The question becomes, what is the role a film, a book, or music is supposed to play. Is the only intent to be "politically correct" and pacify audiences? Do we want to go back to the 1950's Eisenhower fueled depicition of family wife - a mother wearing a dress with pearls as she vacuums the living room in a home where bathrooms are never shown and women never become "pregnant" (probably because the husband and wife sleep in separate beds)? No four letter words are ever uttered onscreen? Sex doesn't exist? Do we want to go back to a world that would ban a Lenny Bruce, Richard Pryor or George Carlin? As many of you have noted, there are people who use the word "retard" in cruel fashion. This film is rated "R". Children should not be seeing it. I would be more outraged at a parent that lets their children see such a film. There is indication that this film points out the shallowness of a Hollywood that preys on the weakness of others. I am not convinced, because I have not seen the full film, that they are being "cruel" in the way they use these words. As I've said, repeatedly, if they do use this word to make a cheap joke - then they deserve to be boycotted. If you wish to be a lemming and follow whatever partyline you choose, let others think for you and then don't worry about a thing. Perhaps the rest of us would like an opportunity to think for ourselves and not judge with preconceived notions that could very easily be wrong. |
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14 Aug 08 - 10:30 AM (#2413520) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Wesley S If you're bored by this conversation why are you here? Listen - we'd still be using the word nigger unless folks started standing up and saying that they thought the word was offensive. I find the word "retard" to be offensive. I'm sure you feel that there is some sort of context where the word is acceptable. I don't think so. And if you've ever seen a little boy kick your son and call him a retard because he can't talk due to autism - you would feel the same way. Or maybe not. |
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14 Aug 08 - 10:31 AM (#2413521) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "the shallowness of a Hollywood that preys on the weakness of others. " I should rephrase that because the word "weakness" does not fit this particular case. Autism, disabilities and other such issues are challenges, not a weakness. I apologize if it came across the wrong way. "Weakness" is an exploitation of people who are not in a position to defend themselves. |
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14 Aug 08 - 10:33 AM (#2413525) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "Listen - we'd still be using the word nigger unless folks started standing up and saying that they thought the word was offensive." Exactly ... and it would probably be used even more if film, literature and other art forms (including comedians like Lenny Bruce)did not point out exactly how offensive it is and the harm it can do. |
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14 Aug 08 - 10:45 AM (#2413539) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Little Hawk "If you're bored by this conversation why are you here?" Ha! ;-) Because I'm a silly, terminally bored son-of-a-gun with way too much time on his hands, that's why. It gives me something to do. It's the equivalent of killing some time by chatting with the folks at the local diner, only it doesn't cost me anything, and I don't even have to walk out the front door. Yeah, I find the word "retard" (when it's used as a noun) offensive. So I don't use it. And I don't like people who do. If, however, I saw a comedian like Lenny Bruce use it deliberately in order to demonstrate through satirical means just how dumb it is to use that word to hurt other people...THAT I would not mind, because a useful point would then be made by that form of satire. Likewise, I don't mind the specific use of the word "nigger" in one line of the long Bob Dylan song about Hurrican Carter, because the entire song is an impassioned defence of the rights of Black people, and the context in which that world "nigger" is used in the line where it appears is not offensive at all, but appropriate. Context is everything. You don't judge by the word itself, you judge by the context. And THAT interests me...seeing that distinction clearly and understanding...so in truth that's probably the real reason why I'm bothering to post on this specific thread. |
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14 Aug 08 - 11:07 AM (#2413570) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Wesley S Wow Ron – I'm a lemming and you're not? How broadminded of you. I would think the air is getting a little thin up on that high horse you're riding. Please note that at the beginning of the thread I provided links to both sides of the discussion. I've never said the movie should be banned. But I find the word offensive and I'm trying to point out that this movie uses the word – from everything I hear – about 17 times. I had never planned on seeing the movie in the first place. Ben Stiller is not my cup of tea and Jack Black is like listening to nails on a blackboard. And if you remember Ben Stiller was in a movie called "What about Mary" if I remember the title correctly. I found that movie was demeaning in its treatment of a mentally challenged person too. So there is a history in Ben Stiller work. C'mon – does anyone really think that a comedy with Ben Stiller and Jack Black could use the word "retard" 17 times and not be offensive? So go ahead and see it. Tell us how enlightened the movie is. Tell us how it promotes better understanding. But please don't compare these people to Lenny Bruce. Now THAT'S funny. |
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14 Aug 08 - 11:16 AM (#2413579) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Comeon Wesley. You are being offensive by twisting my words. You are the one that is riding the high horse here, not me. I repeatedly said that I do not approve, nor would I use, the "r" word. I also said that I have not seen the film and cannot pass judgement,nor have I tried to. I only spoke on what I have read and a clip I've seen - but that is far different from what you have the gall to accuse me of. You can accuse me of being on a high horse, but I am not judging something that I have not seen and I am reading more than one opinion. You know, I would hope that the word offends people who watch the movie - THAT very well could be the point they are trying to make. THAT is what Lenny Bruce did. |
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14 Aug 08 - 11:24 AM (#2413584) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Wesley S I'm not sure how I could have twisted these words: "If you wish to be a lemming and follow whatever partyline you choose, let others think for you and then don't worry about a thing. Perhaps the rest of us would like an opportunity to think for ourselves and not judge with preconceived notions that could very easily be wrong." I usually expect you to be more openminded than that. All I've tried to do is point out that there is a stink being made about this movie. I haven't called for it to be banned. But yes I will stand up and say that the word retard is offensive to me. As it is to you. So what's the problem? How am I on a high horse? |
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14 Aug 08 - 11:25 AM (#2413585) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: GUEST,Sawyer Why does the name Teribus come to mind when I read this ? |
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14 Aug 08 - 11:32 AM (#2413594) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Little Hawk Listen, guys, when it comes to riding the high horse you ain't seen nothin'. No siree. I used to ride a horse so dang high that when I was in the saddle I couldn't even see the ground! I had to pack a parachute just in case of a quick dismount being required, but that horse was good as gold, so I never needed to use the chute. My loyal gal Tuesday (that was her name) would be waitin' for me back at the ranch where we had one of them great big long ladders that are normally used by the fire department and she would prop that ladder up alongside old "Fireball" so I could dismount in relative safety. Well, the view you would get from atop old Fireball when riding the range was something that would have brought tears to Tom Russell's eyes, lemme tell ya, although the air did get a mite thin up there...so I hadda remember to breathe deep so as not to get lightheaded. Did my lungs a world of good. I rode old Fireball for many a year until he finally died tragically. Got hit by a low flying fighter jet with some damn pilot who was joyriding around at below 2,000 feet. They should have taken that fool's wings away. He ejected and survived, but the horse and the plane both suffered fatal damage, I'm sorry to say. So I ain't ridin' the high horse no longer. But God, I have fond memories... |
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14 Aug 08 - 11:36 AM (#2413598) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "I usually expect you to be more openminded than that. All I've tried to do is point out that there is a stink being made about this movie. I haven't called for it to be banned. But yes I will stand up and say that the word retard is offensive to me. As it is to you. So what's the problem? How am I on a high horse? " Wesley, I am being very open minded - but you seem to ignore that. You are right, we both agree that the word "retard" used as a noun is offensive. So if you are not on a high horse, then why would you accuse me of being on one? What you are failing to acknowledge is the fact that films, books and other art forms CAN use such offensive words in telling a story or creating a vile character that does not draw sympathy but exposes a flaw. You have prejudged a movie based on your preconceived notions of the cast. These are actors and they are playing a role. Judging this role without having seen the problem in question is the same as judging a person you have not met based on physical appearance. |
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14 Aug 08 - 11:42 AM (#2413606) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Wesley S Ron - Go ahead and see the movie. I'll even pay for the ticket. PM your address and I'll send you 10 dollars { you'll have to buy your own popcorn }. Then report back and tell us how enlighted the movie is for you. I'm serious. I'm sure you'll be unobjective about the experience. I know I won't be. |
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14 Aug 08 - 11:45 AM (#2413608) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: katlaughing It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that this movie will never become a classical LIKE Huck Finn. Poor comparison, imo. Plus, I never advocated burning the film, banning it or anything else other than that I have no desire to see it. Do you go see every movie before you can decide if you want to see it or not? Of course not. One usually gathers what info they can, through previews, reviews, etc. to help them decide to go see it or not. |
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14 Aug 08 - 11:53 AM (#2413615) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Kat - who the hell said it would become a classic? It has received great reviews, but I doubt it will become a cherished film. However, it is far from a poor comparison because the issue is the same - use of offensive words to tell a story. I'm not urging people to go see it! What I am pointing out, and it is obviously making people uncomfortable, is that many people have preconceived notions AND develop their opinion based on a single-sided media report. You are right, people usually gather what info they can - but in this case people are gathing only the information they wish to hear. "I'm sure you'll be unobjective about the experience. I know I won't be." Well, there you have it. You know very well that if I came back with a positive review you would accuse me of being "unobjective". |
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14 Aug 08 - 11:58 AM (#2413620) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: DebC I am with you, Kat. My reasons for not seeing this movie are pretty simple: after viewing the trailers, it just looked like a movie that I wouldn't be interested in. As for all the controversy, what it HAS done has given my husband and I some pretty good discussions about humour, satire and irony. Debra Cowan |
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14 Aug 08 - 12:00 PM (#2413623) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: SINSULL My son was originally diagnosed as retarded and "rode the little bus". He was higher functioning and was usually considered one of the cool kids. But his classmates were often suffering from autism, Asburger's, Tourette's and a host of other problems. Ridicule is not confined to children. I have been around adults who think "the dummy" doesn't know or care what's going on and so feel free to ridicule. These same geniuses think it's funny to torment the homeless. That said, context determines all. I wouldn't see this movie for all the money in the world - it's pure crap. But maybe the R word fits the script. I can't think of a movie I have seen in which any character who calls a mentally challenged person "Retard" is not the obvious bad guy. loser. hateful human being, etc. Jacqui and I constantly taunt each other with "silly old bat" or "daft old bag". When I said I was considering prostitution to supplement my income she asked "Will you be selling yourself by the pound?" In context, funny. Under other circumstances, downright mean. |
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14 Aug 08 - 12:00 PM (#2413624) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Wesley S You're right. At this point I can't expect you to be objective about this either. But the offer is still open. |
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14 Aug 08 - 12:05 PM (#2413634) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Little Hawk "Will you be selling yourself by the pound?" In context, that's damn funny, SINSULL (since you heard it from Jacqui, someone you know and love). ;-) But you sure wouldn't want to hear it from too many other people.... |
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14 Aug 08 - 12:13 PM (#2413644) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "You're right. At this point I can't expect you to be objective about this either. But the offer is still open. " That is the problem. Unless I come back with an answer that satisfies you, I am not being objective in your eyes. That leaves little room to be truly objective. |
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14 Aug 08 - 12:18 PM (#2413648) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor >>It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that this movie will never become a classical LIKE Huck Finn. Poor comparison, imo. Here! here! And enough of comparing Ben Stiller to Lenny Bruce and Richard Prior. Its a good argument in theory but in practice Stiller is just not that good and he has a history of lowest common denominator humor. |
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14 Aug 08 - 12:21 PM (#2413653) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: WFDU - Ron Olesko You are just being argumentative, again, Jack. As you noted, it is a good argument because the discussion has nothing to do with talent for the comparison to be appropriate. |
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14 Aug 08 - 12:39 PM (#2413674) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: katlaughing In my belief system, our subconscious is like a computer, it takes in what we feed it without prejudice. In other words, it *believes* whatever we tell it and, in my belief system, works to manifest what I feed it, i.e. if I say I am tired...my subconscious will work at making sure I AM tired. That's a simplistic example, but works for my purposes. When I read a book, I can be selective, more easily, between what I read and don't read, what I feed my subconscious and that with which I don't care to "program" it. When I go to a movie, I have less control with music, dialogue and moving images assaulting my senses and my subconsciousness. Therefore, I am more discerning about what I go see. Do I want to fill my subconscious with negative portrayals and derogatory phrases? No. Will I "become" whatever this movie purports, if I go to it? No, of course not, but it does myself, my spirit, my soul no good to fill it with negative crap, so I will not go see this movie. I am NOT a purist nor a prude. I do see movies with violence, language, etc., esp. when I feel they are important in context and done well, i.e. with artistic merit. I believe in striving for a positive balance. |
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14 Aug 08 - 12:42 PM (#2413680) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Little Hawk You have just explained one good reason why I watch so little TV, Kat. |
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14 Aug 08 - 12:52 PM (#2413702) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Fair enough Kat. I respect that, after all, movies were created to allow us some escape and we should work toward remaining positive in our outlook toward life and those in it. I also agree with your last sentence, especially the part about "artistic merit". That is probably why I have issue with some of the posted comments, there are some that are not allowing the performers to use what they consider "artistic merit". You can judge on the outcome of their efforts, but I feel it is wrong to base an opinion on the words of "select" others. I've watched movies, often on a whim, and realized that my preconceived notions about the actors, plot or directorial intenet were dead wrong - and I ended up either loving or hating the production. I like to be challenged when I watch a movie, especially if I am paying for it! I like edgy comedies that often use satire or black humor to get their point across. I'm not a fan of horror films, especially slasher-type, but I can understand why some people watch them simply to challenge their fears. |
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14 Aug 08 - 12:56 PM (#2413707) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: SINSULL That was my point, Little Hawk. Context determines whether an insult is funny or not. I haven't seen the film and can't judge whether context make the R word funny. |
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14 Aug 08 - 12:56 PM (#2413708) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Little Hawk As for Jack Black, he can be quite funny...it depends whether or not he gets a good script to work with. I loved "School of Rock", for instance. I am less impressed by Ben Stiller. |
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14 Aug 08 - 01:04 PM (#2413724) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor No Ron, I think my point is valid. Lenny Bruce and Richard Prior paid a lot of dues to become legends. You are arguing that we should give this movie the leeway we give their work just because we haven't seen it yet. I am arguing that once Ben Stiller has a respectable body of work we should then, maybe, give it credit for obscure, higher social values. But for now when he uses the word "retard" he deserves no more favorable treatment than anyone else using the word. |
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14 Aug 08 - 01:11 PM (#2413734) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Little Hawk I think he's arguing that satire should simply be recognized as satire and not taken literally, isn't he? The only reason that Lenny Bruce and Richard Prior and George Carlin come to the mind when giving examples is this: they are well known, thus everyone knows right away what one is talking about. Now, Richard Prior? I never liked or respected the man much (although I think he's quite talented). I just found his style too vulgar, I guess. |
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14 Aug 08 - 01:15 PM (#2413742) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor That's crap Little Hawk. In Hollywood, more often than not, "satire" is just an excuse for lazy writing. |
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14 Aug 08 - 01:26 PM (#2413763) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: GUEST,dianavan "Being upset about a movie is one thing, but holding Hollywood responsible for intolerance in America is something altogether different." I don't think anyone is holding Hollywood responsible for intolerance in America but Ben Stiller can certainly be accused of perpetuating inaccurate stereotypes. Children often mimic what they hear on t.v. and in the movies without understanding how hurtful it can be to others. Yes, its a parents responsibility to monitor what their children are allowed to see and the protests around this film are designed to alert parents so they can make informed choices. Shame on those who delight in the misfortune of others and think the film is harmless. I haven't seen the film and I certainly won't pay to see it. I hope its a bomb at the box office. |
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14 Aug 08 - 01:43 PM (#2413788) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Little Hawk Well..."crap" is a strong word, Jack. I'm going to have to go and have lunch now and ponder at some length whether I will still deign to speak to you in future after that completely unjustified verbal assault that you chose to inflict on me just now... ;-) (Look, man, if he'd compared Ben Stiller's act to comedians like Harry Longjuan or William Swote or Linda Cannington...what good would it have done to draw such an analogy? Hardly anybody's ever heard of them!) |
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14 Aug 08 - 01:47 PM (#2413793) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor He could have compared Stiller to Andrew Dice Clay and Rosanne Barr. That would have been much more accurate. |
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14 Aug 08 - 02:49 PM (#2413868) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "I am arguing that once Ben Stiller has a respectable body of work we should then, maybe, give it credit for obscure, higher social values. ... He could have compared Stiller to Andrew Dice Clay and Rosanne Barr. That would have been much more accurate. " I could compare him to Jack the Sailor, Joe the Butcher or anyone else who is trying to create. The creative process is not based on how successful or how long someone has been working. "Shame on those who delight in the misfortune of others and think the film is harmless. " I agree with you 100%. Film is very influential and anyone who uses film to hurt others does not deserve respect and certainly does not deserve to be paid for doing so. Shame on those who delight in such crap. Again, in this case - the jury SHOULD still be out as none of us have seen the film and we are only relying on interpretation from select individuals. |
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14 Aug 08 - 03:10 PM (#2413893) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Wesley S If I get bad food at a restaurant three or four times in a row I have no reasonable expectation that the next meal will be a good one. Same thing here. I've seen several of Ben Stillers movies and I've only liked one of them. That's not a good track record for me. I'm not going to spend 7 or 8 dollars to see if he's improved his outlook on people with challenges. My point was to inform the other lemmings here that there may be content that they would find objectionable – and point out the fact that "retard" is an offensive word. It's not a freedom of speech issue. But I'm allowed to vote with my wallet when I've seen a history of objectionable behavior and have every reason to expect more of the same. |
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14 Aug 08 - 03:17 PM (#2413898) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: WFDU - Ron Olesko No one is telling you to go to the restaurant. If you had a bad experience over the food, stay away. That was YOUR experience. However, if the other lemmings take your word for it, they could miss out on a good meal. Wesley - you just cannot seem to grasp the fact that I am not disagreeing that "retard" as a noun to describe someone is offensive. That does not mean the word cannot be used in a film to illict a response that makes a strong point. It is a freedom of speech issue when you deny an actor, writer, or artist the write to use a word to make their point. You are 100% right in that you vote with your wallet but you are wrong when you try to deny an artist the right to tell their story. |
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14 Aug 08 - 03:19 PM (#2413902) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "My point was to inform the other lemmings here that there may be content that they would find objectionable – and point out the fact that "retard" is an offensive word." If that was your point, why did your original posts ask "what do you think"? If you did not want an answer you would not agree with, you should have said so. |
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14 Aug 08 - 03:27 PM (#2413911) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Wesley S There is a huge difference between having a different opinion and calling folks who disagree with you lemmings. Yes - I want other opinions. That's why I gave links to both points of view in my original posts. No one has expected or asked Ben Stiller to not use the word retard in a movie. No one has denied him freedom of using that word.But there is nothing wrong with informing others as to the content of his form of "entertainment". |
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14 Aug 08 - 03:47 PM (#2413928) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "There is a huge difference between having a different opinion and calling folks who disagree with you lemmings." Your damn right there is. But someone who reads one story and uses that to form their own opinion is a lemming. "But there is nothing wrong with informing others as to the content of his form of "entertainment". " There is something wrong if you do not know what the "content" really is. Let me put it this way. In YOUR posts, you have used the word "retard" several times (probably 16 or more). Can I now go online and say "Wesley S. uses offensive language in his posts should be banned from Mudcat?" |
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14 Aug 08 - 04:09 PM (#2413946) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Wesley S Ron - This is getting silly. OK - you're right and I'm wrong. Feel better? Let's move on. |
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14 Aug 08 - 04:15 PM (#2413953) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Wesley, I understand your frustration. It is not a question of being right or wrong but being understood. I know these discussions can be hard to grasp when you are passionate about the subject, but I meant this to be a serious discussion and not silly. My last example was an attempt to show you how a decision without all the facts can be misconstrued. |
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14 Aug 08 - 04:16 PM (#2413955) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Little Hawk Awright! It appears that we may be seeing some possibility of an armistace here, however shaky. ;-) Think of the time this will save for posting on other valuable threads. |
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14 Aug 08 - 05:09 PM (#2414012) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: PoppaGator I think that a major part of what Ben Stiller tries to do is to portray characters who are absolute jerks, in a manner meeant to ridicule the foolish character, not to hold him up for emulation. (Example: the vain and clueless male model in Zoolander.) Now, whether he's entirely effective, or even enjoyable, is another question. Not having seen the film, but having seen excerpts in the context of way-too-many TV commericals, I believe that when these characters speak the word "retard," especially when they do so excessively and repititiously, the audience is supposed to realize that they are inarticulate, lack imagination, and are probably more lacking in mental acuity than whoever they are seeking to ridicule. I'm not crazy about Stiller's work because most of what I've seen is heavy-handed and obvious, and therefore less than funny. I certainly understand everyone who is sattuing their intention not to patronize this effort ~ I won't be in attendance, either... Now, I do like Jack Black. I was put off by him at first ~ anyone who is that full of, er, I mean, sure of himself usually makes a very poor first impression upon me. When my kids pleaded his case ("Dad, he's really funny!") I didn't listen, but they sold their mother on his virtues, and then she in turn convinced me. Just below his blowhard surface is a very sweet quality that, along with a genuinely sharp wit, is the basis of his appeal. As Little Hawk mentioned, he's very entertaining and likeable as the central character in School of Rock. Plus which, the sunnavabitch can really sing. Check him out in his breakthrough role in High Fidelity: All through the film he portrays a loud and egotistical entry-level-employee type, someone who can never be taken seriously. Then, at the very end, he reveals his surprising musical talent with a bravura rendition of Marvin Gaye's "Let's Get It On." For a tubby little white boy, he sure has got some soul! |
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14 Aug 08 - 09:42 PM (#2414197) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: katlaughing Now that gives me pause, because I have never been able to stand Jack Black. So...valuing your opinion, Poppa, I went to youtube and found THIS and, to me, it looks as though he's just lip syncing? |
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14 Aug 08 - 09:51 PM (#2414204) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Little Hawk I didn't like Jack Black at all initially...but I changed my mind completely after seeing him in some great roles. There is something genuinely likeable about the guy, and "School of Rock" is simply a wonderful film. Some of the others he did are pretty good too. He has a knack for portraying a certain kind of very ambitious (yet sloppy and essentially lazy) young rock n' roll dude totally in love with the music, but with some obvious physical drawbacks (his excess weight, his short stature, his not terribly handsome looks, and his general lack of any conventional "hunk" appeal). I've known rock n' roll guys like that, and his depiction of the type is hilarious and bang on. He makes you like him despite his general tackiness, because you understand the hunger that drives him. |
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14 Aug 08 - 11:42 PM (#2414248) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor >>>I could compare him to Jack the Sailor, Joe the Butcher or anyone else who is trying to create. The creative process is not based on how successful or how long someone has been working. Why should just anyone be excused for offending people just because they do it in what they call a "piece of art?" Don't drag my name into this. Because I would not expect that. In the case of this movie its pretty obvious that the word is NOT used seventeen times for its educational value. Its obviously a joke and, given Stiller's record, almost certainly in poor taste. |
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15 Aug 08 - 09:48 AM (#2414547) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "In the case of this movie its pretty obvious that the word is NOT used seventeen times for its educational value." It is NOT obvious based on the reports. "Its obviously a joke and, given Stiller's record, almost certainly in poor taste. " Who said taste needs to be good to have an effect? There are numerous films that you and I could both name that have used offensive language for effect. Jack, I know you enjoy arguing just as much as the rest of us, but in the end - since neither of have seen the film, nor have any desire too, it is simply opinion - and opinion does not translate to fact. |
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15 Aug 08 - 01:23 PM (#2414766) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Yes, Ron, Its opinion and neither of us has seen the movie. But you are the only one using that as an argument. After you have put forth each of your other arguments. As for facts. It is a fact that the word was used at least 16 times in the movie. It is a fact that people who find the word hurtful are protesting. Its also very likely that the promotion budget of this movie, at 100 million dollars is larger than than the annual budget of the charities that are protesting it. They don't need Ron Olesko squelching dissent. |
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15 Aug 08 - 01:41 PM (#2414784) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: PoppaGator Kat, that YouTube clip is the very scene in the movie I was talking about. The technical quality of a YouTube clip is markedly inferior to the original film (even as seen in video form via satelite/cable/DVD), and synchronization of audio to video is usually less than perfect. At any rate, that's not Marvin Gaye's voice we're hearing, or anyone else's. It's Jack's. Now, it may well be that he dubbed in a vocal track post-production, maybe even with an edit or two, but if he's lip-synching, he's lip-synching himself. Please consider Little Hawk's opnion and mine ~ we've both allowed that our initial impresisons of the guy were absolutely negative. probably very similar to your own, but that eventually we were both won over. "YMMV," of course. Maybe you'll never warm up to they guy, and if so, so what. But do yourself a favor and rent School of Rock, anyway. Even if you don't come around to enjoying JB's performance, I defy you not to love the kids in that movie. |
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15 Aug 08 - 01:51 PM (#2414794) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Black singing Black on tropic thunder |
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15 Aug 08 - 01:52 PM (#2414797) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Jack, no matter how much you wish to twist my words - I'm not squelching dissent. Neither are any of the other reviewers who have seen the film and see things a bit differently than you do. I'm glad the subject is out where people are discussing it. It is not a word that should be used to hurt. |
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15 Aug 08 - 11:29 PM (#2415202) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Another review |
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15 Aug 08 - 11:43 PM (#2415207) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: katlaughing Well, he does seem to have a nice voice. I don't think I care much for the parts he plays, but I may try the one movie. Thanks, guys. Can't say I am impressed with the parody of fat, farty people Black apparently plays in this movie, either. It's disgusting, imo. |
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15 Aug 08 - 11:50 PM (#2415210) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: GUEST,A Regular Forget the movie for a moment. Use that word directed at or about my special needs daughter and I will rip your throat out. Period. That's the context in which it is not funny. Back to the movie. If it is satire, it's not very good. If it's humour, it ranks up there with Question: "What do you call a guy with no arms or legs in a swimming pool?" Answer: "Bob." ha ha ha |
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18 Aug 08 - 10:25 AM (#2416804) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Wesley S I noticed that "Tropic Thunder" was the number one movie over the weekend and knocked "The Dark Knight" out of first place. That doesn't make it a good movie of course - just popular. |
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18 Aug 08 - 12:40 PM (#2416921) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Little Hawk The Dark Knight wasn't a very good movie in my opinion either...despite the hype. I found it soulless and cold...but then, I find almost all the Batman movies soulless and cold. |
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18 Aug 08 - 01:12 PM (#2416964) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Donuel A law is needed to imprison anyone who mimics, makes fun of, or takes on the gestures, behavior or words of 'those who are somwhat less developmentally advanced. Unfortunatly Congress and the executive branch would have to rule from prison. |
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18 Aug 08 - 01:17 PM (#2416971) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Dark Night is at 479 million. After 4 weeks it is second in all time domestic gross. Tropic Thunder will probably not match the 150 million it cost to make. |
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18 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM (#2417030) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: PoppaGator I can't remember the last time a movie came out that I really wanted to see. Well, I can remember that as recently as a year or so ago, there were movies that struck me as worth watching ~ I just can't remember which movie was the last one I cared about. Maybe Juno. ~ ??? Since then, everything out of Hollywood AND everything coming from the independants, too, it all seems to be such a pile of crap... Maybe when sumnmer finally ends, we'll see a few halfway-intelligent films start appearing again. |
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18 Aug 08 - 02:24 PM (#2417051) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Wolfgang Use the word "retard" as a noun in a sentence in a non-offensive way. Show mw how it can be done. That's an easy challenge: ...The NOx reduction is effected during the operation in the stoichiometric mode in a previously given speed/torque range by timing adjustment from the point of optimum efficiency in the direction of retard. ... ...Results the results indicated that six different REV strains could cause the retard of growth... ...On the basis of these factors, a possible retard of the start of pump delivery can be determined. By an actuation of a three/two-directional control valve... or in a music context: ...Observe that onset components of the field may also be negative, according to the retard of onset in the middle arpeggio region of pitch around ... Even with regard to humans it can still be used as a noun in a non-offensive way: ...The acute malnutrition increased in infants from 12% to 23% and the percentage of children with retard of growth in height and the overweight, was increased.... And then there are retarded integral inequalities in math... Now to the short serious part of my post: The word "retard(ed/ation)" was introduced (by a broadening of its original meaning) many decades ago to get rid of the pejorative connotation of words like idiot, moron or imbecile. Like all words introduced to get rid of such connotations, this word too has failed in that respect for the connotations have now usurped the meant to be innocuous word. And so it will happen over decades with whatever word or expression replacing "retard". Wolfgang |
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18 Aug 08 - 02:33 PM (#2417064) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Wolfgang Bravo on passing the challenge. But I'm not sure that the word was used correctly in all those cases. Certainly in some of those the points would have been clearer with a different choice of words. |
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18 Aug 08 - 02:36 PM (#2417071) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Wolfgang "Retard" still has the meaning of "delay" and is correctly used in that sense in all quotes. Wolfgang |
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18 Aug 08 - 02:57 PM (#2417088) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Emma B Quite 'respectable' words can become abused over time.... for example.. 'The word 'spastic' is used differently depending on location which has led to some controversy and misunderstanding. The term generally originates from spasticity, a medical condition characterised by hypertonia, or a high degree of muscle tightness. Spasticity underlies spastic diplegia and many other forms of cerebral palsy. But the word in common speech can also be used in a pejorative context. The level of severity depends on whether one understands it as it is used in the United States or the United Kingdom . Wikipedia In the UK it can be considered highly abusive and taboo "You spaz" became popular insults amongst children and in 1994 The Spastics society, a well known UK charity, changed its name. check out Worst word vote from the BBC 'Ouch' site and a comment on the film from the same site |
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18 Aug 08 - 03:01 PM (#2417097) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Leadfingers 100 |
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18 Aug 08 - 03:01 PM (#2417099) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Leadfingers Ooops ! It DEFINATELY was 99 when I clicked on the thread !! |
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18 Aug 08 - 03:05 PM (#2417104) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Donuel There is a niggardly amount of pro retard insult arguments in this debate. |
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18 Aug 08 - 03:19 PM (#2417113) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor If you say so Wolfgang. But the sentences do not seem to be well written. There are certainly more accurate and more common choices of words in each case. In fact in each of the sentences you have put forth, "retardation" would be a better choice. In modern common, english use, especially in the context of this discussion, unless talking about a person in a negative way retard is the verb, retardation is the noun. |
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18 Aug 08 - 03:36 PM (#2417130) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: katlaughing Though his sentences seem a little convoluted/technical/awkward, Wolfgang has used it in the correct manner, for that meaning, i.e. –noun - a slowing down, diminution, or hindrance, as in a machine. |
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18 Aug 08 - 03:46 PM (#2417138) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Wolfgang My God, Jack, you must have realised that all my examples have come from technical language and not from common language. In all these examples, "retardation" would be the wrong word because it means something quite different from retard. Retard is technically in this sense a delayed onset which may result in retardation or not. A child with a retard (delayed onset) of growth may turn out to not have a retardation of growth some months or two years later. Retard refers to an effect not appearing/starting at the expected time. If there is no later acceleration a sustained retardation may result from an initial retard. This clear technical difference may well be disregarded in common English (I regard you as an expert there). But to disregard it in technical jargon would be a mistake. Wolfgang |
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18 Aug 08 - 03:54 PM (#2417150) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Wolfgang Sorry, I got carried away. I should not have responded to Jack at all. I think it was absolutely clear that I have deliberately read Wesley's point verbatim and have not read it as it was clearly meant. The way it was meant of course Wesley's observation stands. Wolfgang |
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18 Aug 08 - 04:03 PM (#2417159) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: Wesley S I've used the word retard myself in a musical application. In that case the accent is on the last syllable. In my experience when used as an insult the accent is on the first. |
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18 Aug 08 - 06:45 PM (#2417285) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: McGrath of Harlow Fortunately the term "retard" has never really caught on in the UK. I hope it never does. |
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19 Nov 08 - 11:49 AM (#2497677) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: john f weldon Hate to revive an old thread, but Tropic Thunder just came out on DVD and I was able to see it for the first time. It's a wonderful film, clever, wise and funny. There is nothing offensive about it. |
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19 Nov 08 - 01:45 PM (#2497776) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: maple_leaf_boy I pronounce it in a French accent, as I use it as a French word for late, not as an insult. |
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19 Nov 08 - 02:36 PM (#2497827) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: bubblyrat When I was at school in the 1950s,there was a boy in my class, Andy,who had had Polio,and was terribly twisted,with his puny legs braced with metal calipers.But he still joined the rest of us when we played football .Of course, he often fell over,and we would all shout "Come on Andy,you big SPASTIC !! " ---and he would laugh,and we would laugh,and it was our way,and his way,of coping with what would otherwise have been an awkward and embarrassing situation.And yes, we all loved Andy.What a shame that we have to grow up and get uptight over a mere word . |
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19 Nov 08 - 02:51 PM (#2497842) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: PoppaGator Since the film's recent DVD release, we've been seeing another round of TV commercials, which in turn has prompted me to think again about this controversy. Thanks to John Weldon for his sane and humane comment. Some people, it seems, will never understand the difference between actual man-spirited use of offensive language, as opposed to the ironic/satiric presentation or portrayal of fictional characters whose ignorant and/or offensive utterings serve to (a) further define their personalities and (b) cast their behavior in a negative light ~ at least, to those with eyes to see and ears to hear. Condemning an entire film because a character is depicted as stupid enough to use the word "retard" as an epithet directed towards his companions ~ never towards any person with an actual mental/neurologial diability ~ is pretty much akin to banning "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" because Mark Twain dared to use "the N-word" back in the late 19th century (when writing a book about an earlier era of the 19th century). |
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19 Nov 08 - 03:01 PM (#2497856) Subject: RE: BS: Retard - The 'R' word From: maple_leaf_boy What about "All In The Family?" Archie would for example call black people "colored," and he would often make stereotypes about other minorities. The audience already knew that Norman Lear created Archie Bunker to show people that this was the type of person that was not good for society. The show was a success. He used the 'n'-word in one episode, and the series has been shown in repeats during the nineties, and in this decade. They even repeated the one where he used the 'n'-word, but it didn't have a negative effect on the ratings. People knew why the word was used. He was locked in a basement with Mike, and they were talking. Archie told a story about when he was a little boy, he got beat up by an older kid because he "called him a 'n'word", and explained that his Father used to use the word. If people took that scene out of context, there probably wouldn't have been any more episodes aired, and there might not be repeats of the show long after the series ended. |