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14 Aug 08 - 03:07 PM (#2413888) Subject: Alt. names for folk songs. From: Jayto I can think of several folk songs that have multiple names. An example is Napolean's Retreat is called Pennington's Farewell here locally because of a local historical event. Does anyone else on here have any alternate song titles and the stories behind these alt titles. If you don't have the story please share the alt song title. |
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14 Aug 08 - 03:13 PM (#2413895) Subject: RE: Alt. names for folk songs. From: Steve Gardham Jayto, An important characteristic of folksongs is the variation. Almost every folksong has numerous titles attached to it. Some of them have as many titles as there are versions. It would be more interesting to find a folksong that doesn't have alternative titles! |
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14 Aug 08 - 05:11 PM (#2414016) Subject: RE: Alt. names for folk songs. From: Jayto I think what I am curious about are the stories behind the names. In my case a man (actually my great great Uncle) was arrested for murder and robbery. He had a gang along the Tennessee border that had robbed and killed the man after a bad night of poker. They sentenced him to death. They hanged him from a tree in western Kentucky. On the first attempt the rope broke. The old legend about a person being released if the ropw breaks is not true in this case. They started preparing another rope to hang him with. As he waited they did offer him another last request. He requested his fiddle from home. They sent a man t retrieve his fiddle for him. When the man returned he walked over to his casket and sit down on it. Then he started playing the old tune Napolean's Retreat. From that day on in Southwestern Kentucky and northwest Tennessee the song is known as Pennington's Farewell. Pennington was his last name sorry I left that part out. That is more fo what I am seeking with the question I guess. |
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14 Aug 08 - 08:45 PM (#2414180) Subject: RE: Alt. names for folk songs. From: Sandra in Sydney Jayto, that's a great story - I assume not every tune/song variation has such an interesting (true) story. I also assume many would have a folk-entomology that is as colourful as that. You might like to have a look at the disreputable relatives thread! sandra |
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14 Aug 08 - 08:52 PM (#2414183) Subject: RE: Alt. names for folk songs. From: Jayto Thanks Sandra I will check that out. |
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14 Aug 08 - 10:12 PM (#2414218) Subject: RE: Alt. names for folk songs. From: M.Ted I was curious about "Pennington's Fairwell", |
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14 Aug 08 - 10:16 PM (#2414220) Subject: RE: Alt. names for folk songs. From: M.Ted I am not sure how this fits in, but it is a wonderful comparison of a number of seemingly very different versions of a familiar tuneBonaparte's Retreat |
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15 Aug 08 - 01:59 AM (#2414287) Subject: RE: Alt. names for folk songs. From: Jayto I stand corrected Bonaparte's Retreat is the name of the song. I knew when I wrote Napolean's it didn't look right. Thanks for the correction. |
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15 Aug 08 - 10:47 AM (#2414599) Subject: RE: Alt. names for folk songs. From: Steve Gardham Is this actually a song? The tune 'Bonaparte's Retreat' is well-known but I haven't come across any lyrics. There are hundreds of 'Bonaparte' ballads and some may have been set to this tune. One for you, Malcolm? |
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15 Aug 08 - 11:15 AM (#2414624) Subject: RE: Alt. names for folk songs. From: Severn A story is told by Burl Hammons on the Library Of Congress recordings "The Hammons Family:The Traditions Of A West Virginia Family And Their Friends" (Rounder 1504/05) about one Sol Carpenter, who during the Civil War fiddled his way out of the Ohio Union prison Camp Chase by winning a contest held among the prisoners. He played a version of "George Booker"/The Marquis Of Huntley's Farewell and it is said even made up some changes on the spot to win his freedom That tune is now known in West Virginia as "Camp Chase" West Virginians Dave Bing and Dwight Diller do a versiom on "In England" (Yew Pine Mountain YP-ENG) |
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15 Aug 08 - 05:47 PM (#2414983) Subject: RE: Alt. names for folk songs. From: GUEST,Jim The fiddle tune that is popularly known as The Red Haired Boy goes by several other names, but when the title changes, the words do too. I first heard it called The Little Begger Man and sung by Ian and Sylvia; "I am a little beggerman a begger I've been For three score or more on this little Isle of green." I've heard Jamie Snyder sing a Newfoundland version called The Old Ragadoo: "I'm a hearty Newfoundlander Michael Chaser is my name I was born on Green Island I'm a fisherman by trade." John Carter remembers his dad, from the Ottawa Valley singing The Old Soldier With The Wooden Leg: "There was an old soldier and he had a wooden leg And he had no tobacco so tobacco he would beg." I've heard some contemporary singer/songwriters use this tune for songs of their own - Washboard Hank has one that I can't recall right now. The tune is sometimes called Gilderoy, which is a anglicized version odf the Irish for Red Haired Boy. |
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16 Aug 08 - 08:23 AM (#2415336) Subject: RE: Alt. names for folk songs. From: oldhippie "Paradise" vs "Muhlenberg County" |
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17 Aug 08 - 08:33 AM (#2415961) Subject: RE: Alt. names for folk songs. From: Marje Maybe it would help if we knew whether we were talking about tunes or songs-with-lyrics? In the UK, as "song" has words as well as a tune, while a "tune" is just a melody, but in the US a "song" also means a tune. Tunes are more likely to have various names, because the name is usually just a tag to remember and refer to it, and any other tag is just as valid. Many tunes, for example, have close variants with different names in Ireland and in England/Scotland (and no doubt further variations across the Atlantic). When a tune was taken from its original location, it might become known, for instance, as "X'x Favourite" or "X's Jig" where X = the name of the player who introduced it there. Songs (with words) can't really be said to have different names, but there are lots of song melodies that are used for more than one set of lyrics. Likewise there are songs that are sung to more than one tune - many of the broadsheet ballads and other songs didn't originally have a fixed tune, but were sung to any suitable melody known by the singer. I'm sure there are many examples of all the above, but in there one category in particular that interests someone ? Marje |
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17 Aug 08 - 08:46 AM (#2415968) Subject: RE: Alt. names for folk songs. From: The Borchester Echo Martin Carthy set Child #32 King Henry to the tune Bonaparte's Retreat. |
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17 Aug 08 - 09:17 AM (#2415984) Subject: RE: Alt. names for folk songs. From: The Borchester Echo Ah, but you were looking for stories. I always thought the one about Andy Irvine looking up the tune for Fair Flower Of Northumberland in Bronson and the page blowing over so that he in fact copied out Fause Foodrage was a bit of a tall story. Why didn't he just say the tune fitted well (which it does and it's why almost everyone has done it that way for the past 35 years)? If you are not struck on a tune, or if it doesn't suit your vocal range, just find (or write) another. I wonder why no-one does that for Star Spangled Banner which is in no-one's vocal range. |
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17 Aug 08 - 07:36 PM (#2416391) Subject: RE: Alt. names for folk songs. From: GUEST,Dave MacKenzie I always thought that when a tune crossed the Atlantic, the tune either stayed (more or less) the same and the title got changed, or the title stayed the same and and the tune got changed - I know a man who does a "Soldier's Joy" set, twice through a British version and then an American one. |
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17 Aug 08 - 11:00 PM (#2416506) Subject: RE: Alt. names for folk songs. From: GUEST,john anderson House Of The Rising Sun can be known as "Rising Sun Blues", although there was another song by that name that was around before it. Take This Hammer is also called "Tell Him I'm Gone". The latter was actually a re-write of the blues song, though. |
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18 Aug 08 - 06:08 AM (#2416633) Subject: RE: Alt. names for folk songs. From: Jim Carroll "I always thought the one about Andy Irvine looking up the tune for Fair Flower Of Northumberland in Bronson and the page blowing over so that he in fact copied out Fause Foodrage was a bit of a tall story." Countess Di: I know we get strong winds in Ireland, but that must have been a hurricane; 'Fair Flower' is in volume one of Bronson and 'Fause Foodrage' is in volume two - and they're biiiig books. Jim Carroll |
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18 Aug 08 - 08:52 AM (#2416732) Subject: RE: Alt. names for folk songs. From: The Borchester Echo I'd take that up with Mr Irvine if I were you, Jim. I never believed it in the first place. Brian Peters is the one for mixing and matching tunes to Child texts to brilliant effect. Hope he comes along and gives a few examples. |
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18 Aug 08 - 09:01 AM (#2416744) Subject: RE: Alt. names for folk songs. From: Leadfingers It seems that in Ireland the same tune has a different title if its Northern Ireland or Eire - And then you'll often find the same tune in an English collection with another name . |
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18 Aug 08 - 10:49 AM (#2416822) Subject: RE: Alt. names for folk songs. From: Malcolm Douglas You've mixed the story up rather, Diane. The tune Andy Irvine intended to copy (from Child, not Bronson) was Willie O Winsbury, (V, 418); the one he actually got was Fause Foodrage (V, 416). He has always characterised this as a mistake that he only noticed afterwards when it was too late, but he never used to be specific about the 'book of ballads' that he got the tune from (or what song the tune really belonged to). Although I don't imagine for a moment that I was the first person who took the trouble to work out what it was, I do seem to have been the first to give the details on the Internet. Word has spread in the years since then, though as usual the details have sometimes become confused. I should mention that that business about the page flipping over was purely my speculation as to how it may have happened (similar things have happened to me); so far as I know, Irvine has never said that himself. On the general topic, it is absolutely normal for songs and tunes transmitted aurally to acquire variant or completely new titles in the course of transmission. There isn't anything surprising about that, except perhaps when one first notices. |
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18 Aug 08 - 11:29 AM (#2416850) Subject: RE: Alt. names for folk songs. From: The Borchester Echo Ah, there are all sorts of versions of the story. Including some bollox about a loose page falling out in a bookshop. Perhaps I should have said that I don't give much credence to any of them. If you find a tune that suits a text and / or your vocal range, why not just say so (as Martin Carthy does, as I said re: King Henry / Bonaparte's Retreat above)? |
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18 Aug 08 - 01:48 PM (#2417027) Subject: RE: Alt. names for folk songs. From: Jim Carroll "Songs (with words) can't really be said to have different names," In my experience the opposite is the case. The older singers tended not to bother too much with titles, taking a prominent line of a song to identify it. It was the researchers who listed the songs under standard titles. A Travelling woman gave us four/five verses of a song she called 'My Brother Built Me A Bancy Bower' - we chose not to correct her by telling her that the 'actual' title was 'Famous Flower of Serving Men' (Child 106). My favourite story on this subject was of a collector friend who was recording songs from an elderly singer in North West Clare. The singer had a large repertoire of quite rare songs which my friend was quite anxious to get down on tape, but the singer kept asking him 'Do you know 'The Old Armchair'?" Finally my friend agreed to record the song, and the singer began: "Knight William was sitting in his old armchair, Lady Margaret was sitting on his knee" - It turned out to be 'Fair Margaret and Sweet William', the only version of Child 69 to have been collected in Ireland, and extremely rare elsewhere. Jim Carroll |
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18 Aug 08 - 02:27 PM (#2417057) Subject: RE: Alt. names for folk songs. From: The Borchester Echo Songs can't have different names? Just a few of the alternate titles of Child #53: Lord Bateman ('s Castle) Lord Bakeman Lord Beichan Lord Beigham Lord Bayham Lord Ateman Lord Becket Young Becan Young Beichan Young Bekie Any of the above: + Susie / Shusha Pye / Price Sofia The Saracen's Daughter The Turkish Lady Lord Thomas & Fair Ellender . . . and so on. |
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18 Aug 08 - 03:03 PM (#2417102) Subject: RE: Alt. names for folk songs. From: Liz the Squeak "I wonder why no-one does that for Star Spangled Banner which is in no-one's vocal range." Which is why an American friend of no fixed abode calls it 'The Bar Strangled Spanner'.... There are three names for every song or tune. There's the English name, the Irish name and the one the rest of the world knows it as. LTS |
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21 Aug 08 - 04:06 AM (#2419251) Subject: RE: Alt. names for folk songs. From: The Borchester Echo Jim asked: 'Do you know 'The Old Armchair'?" Funny, somebody asked me that only the other day. And sang it. I had occasion to make a call in the Camden Square area of North London and so went to take a look at 5 North Villas, the erstwhile home of Bill Leader. And very des res it is, thirty years on. An ancient resident who probably thought I was a potential burglar got talking to me. He knew something about "the old songs", he said. However, it wasn't Fair Margaret & Sweet William (which I think is #74. #69 is Clerk Sanders, is it not?) It was a song about somebody's granny who left an armchair in a will which turned out to be stuffed with bank notes. |