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15 Aug 08 - 09:30 PM (#2415133) Subject: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Rapparee I just re-re-re-(etc.)-read Ulysses. One of my favorite books -- I wish I could have been in Dublin on June 16, but I had to return home and go back to work before Bloomsday. What's your opinion of the novel? And why? |
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15 Aug 08 - 10:13 PM (#2415158) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Bee I haven't read it in so many years I don't feel qualified to comment - I was a very young woman. Time to find a copy and read it again. For your pleasure, though, here's a Joycean anecdote, which I first read as described by another Paris based artist, found again last year and saved for just such an occasion. It speaks of the modern artist in Joyce, I think. ..... Though he liked having Samuel Beckett with him, Joyce at the same time kept him at a distance. Once he said directly, `I don't love anyone except my family' in a tone which suggested, `I don't like anyone except my family either.' But Beckett's mind had a subtlety and strangeness that attracted Joyce as it attracted, in another way, his daughter. So he would ask the young man to read to him passages from Mauthner's Beiträge zu Einer Kritik der Sprache, in which the nominalistic view of language seemed something Joyce was looking for. Once or twice he dictated a bit of Finnegans Wake to Beckett, though dictation did not work very well for him; in the middle of one such session there was a knock at the door which Beckett didn't hear. Joyce said, `Come in,' and Beckett wrote it down. Afterwards he read back what he had written and Joyce said, `What's that "Come in"?' 'Yes, you said that,' said Beckett. Joyce thought for a moment, then said, `Let it stand.' He was quite willing to accept coincidence as his collaborator. — Richard Ellmann, James Joyce (New York, 1959), pp. 661-662. |
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15 Aug 08 - 10:16 PM (#2415160) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Riginslinger It's hard to get your arms around, at least it was for me. I read it one time, and then bought a BBC Audio rendition which kind of helped a little. I came away really wanting to check out Bloom's wife. One of the lines I remember was the inn keeper who made the observation that Ireland never had a problem with Jews because they never let them in. I continue to wonder why Bloom slept up-side-down in bed. |
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15 Aug 08 - 10:20 PM (#2415164) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Big Al Whittle I've loved James Joyce's writing since coming across Portrait of the Artist when I was 16 years old. Ulysses, I am convinced, contains some of the best writng ever. Parts of it go over my radar - as sometimes a Shakespeare speech does. I think also because I had immersed myself in Joyce as a young man, I was able to see through a lot of the cant that is talked about the nature of folksong - the po-faced 'seriousness' of the folk revival. At very odd times in folk clubs - you find yourself reflecting on Stuart Gilbert's thoughts about the 'bareserks' and their place in viking/celtic (therefore English) troubadouring, and their ability to hold an audience. Contrast that with the buggers who think traditional song is good for you - even when read out from an exercise book in the most bring way imaginable. As you get older and the story of the cuckold and the artistic young man gain the warmth of actual life experience, the focus alters more than slightly. You marvel - not just at the wealth of ideas and inner knowledge of the human condition, but also at the appetite for truth telling. That's why I write songs. Two minutes of my experiencs is all I want to talk about and share with the world. Songwriting is so evasive of profound truth - unlike - symphony writing or grreat novel or great poetry writing. I could talk for hours about Joyce. But theres no one to talk to. I'm not a literary pilgim. That's what makes him special - ordinary Joe's like me can dig him. |
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15 Aug 08 - 10:22 PM (#2415166) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Q (Frank Staplin) It took a used book dealer, who had come to Canada from Ireland, to explain Joyce's books to me. His explanation of Irish, esp. Dublin, society, and the Catholic church in Ireland, greatly enhanced my appreciation of Joyce. |
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15 Aug 08 - 10:30 PM (#2415172) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Sorcha I have tried to read it but just couldn't. I have read the short stories tho, and loved them. |
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15 Aug 08 - 10:35 PM (#2415175) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Amos I love WLD's comments. I too dived heartily into Ulysses, Portrait, and Finnegan in my college years. I did it, I confess now, partly for show; but in doing it I was swept away. I can't speak intelligently about the book today, but I revere the memory of having swum in those waters. There's a wonderful shaggy dog story about a professor who dedicated a semester course to Finnegan's Wake and ran the course for thirty years despite having a speech impediment. His last lecture ends, "N-n-now I have stu-stu-studies Finnegan's Wake f-f-for thir---thir---thirty years, and I think I can saff-saf- safely say I understand the who- who- whole bu-bu-bu-boook. "And it is a puh... puh...puh... PISS puh- ...puh...puh...POOR buh... buh...book!!" (I'll get me dustjacket....). A |
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15 Aug 08 - 10:44 PM (#2415183) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Riginslinger I've never been able to get more than a few pages into "Finnegan's Wake." Obviously if the guy thought it was a piss-poor-book he wouldn't have taught it for thirty years. I'm inclined to wonder if he was wrestling with Joyce himself, and might have been still been trying to figure out what to say about it all. |
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15 Aug 08 - 10:45 PM (#2415184) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Big Al Whittle Okay heres the story http://home.bway.net/hunger/ch1-ulys.html You Americans are wonderful! |
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16 Aug 08 - 11:17 AM (#2415396) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Peter T. The book is Finnegans Wake, no apostrophe. (I spent 5 years of my life working on it, so I have a right to be persnickety). yours, Peter T. |
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16 Aug 08 - 11:39 AM (#2415406) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: MAG Have y'all ever heard Tommy Makem reciting from Finnegans Wake? pure poetry. You have to read it out loud. and yes, I used to re-read Ulysses once a year for fun. |
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16 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM (#2415447) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: maire-aine I read it while I was in college, but I seem to remember that it took a long time, because I was studing other things at the same time. It's on my list of things to re-read, maybe this winter. I recently read a book called The Irish Ulysses, by Maria Tymoczko. It's out of print, I think, but you might still find copies on Alibris. It was a very interesting analysis of Ulysses as a work of Irish literature. Maryanne |
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16 Aug 08 - 12:53 PM (#2415452) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Amos PEter: Perhaps 'twas you the shaggy dog story was about? A |
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16 Aug 08 - 02:47 PM (#2415528) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: katlaughing thanks, wld! Hilarious! |
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16 Aug 08 - 05:32 PM (#2415611) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Art Thieme I tried it once maybe 40 years ago---and could not make headway. I found it much like what Frank Proffitt said after hearing Earl Scruggs play the banjo. He said, "I'd like to be able to do it, and then not do it." --- Now, at 67, I can't find the time----and Cormac McCarthy is more my wont. Art |
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16 Aug 08 - 06:00 PM (#2415629) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Rapparee I admit to never getting beyond a few pages into FW...I like the song much better. I also enjoyed the movie "Ulysses" which came out in the mid-60s. |
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16 Aug 08 - 06:15 PM (#2415641) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Peter K (Fionn) A hugely exhilerating book. I've made a point of trying to wade through what are generally acclaimed as the great novels of the 19th & 20th century. Some were hard work, this one was a pleasure. As well as enjoying it, I was knocked out by the sheer achievement of it - such a vivid picture of a great city on a specific day, with all the fantastic detail retrieved from his memory many years after he was there. To anyone who has been put off by its reputation for being difficult, I would say at least try it and you might be surprised. In that respect I'd say Ulysses has some similarity with the Satanic Verses - also regarded as "difficult" yet fabulously well written, with a great deal of humour. |
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16 Aug 08 - 07:20 PM (#2415695) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: McGrath of Harlow " I continue to wonder why Bloom slept up-side-down in bed." It's the wife's idea, I assume, because she's gone off him. |
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16 Aug 08 - 08:29 PM (#2415723) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: quokka Went to Bloomsday last year, packed house, listening to some local celebrities reading from Ulysses...at some point during the evening they asked the audience (200) how many had actually read the book. Four of us put up our hands(!) It IS worth the effort. It took me ages to get past the first 100 pages. I would pick it up and put it down, defeated. Then I read a book about Ulysses called 'The Book as World' and tried again to read U. I finally GOT it. I re-read it often now, loving it more, and finding more in it, every time. Of course it helps that I've got a decent copy, green cloth-bound, 1967 edition, published by The Bodley Head. On the flyleaf it lists all the previous editions. It looks like this was the first since 1937! Cheers, Quokka |
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16 Aug 08 - 09:40 PM (#2415774) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Rapparee I took a graduate course in "contemporary literature" and of all the books I read in it only "Ulysses" (?!) and "One Hundred Years Of Solitude" were memorable enough for me to keep my copies. I already HAD a copy of U, so to the annoyance of the prof teaching the course my pagination didn't match his. I also thought the discussion of the book stunk. |
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16 Aug 08 - 09:50 PM (#2415779) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Gulliver I read it while I was in Italy after I found by chance a "Guide to Ulysses" (written for Italian students) in a bookshop next to my hotel. Following the guide, I didn't start with the first chapter, but with a later one (third?), where the story really begins, then returned to the first couple of chapters later. It made a lot more sense that way. I still re-read the graveyard bits, Paddy Dignam's funeral. Don |
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16 Aug 08 - 10:17 PM (#2415791) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Bill D "I also enjoyed the movie "Ulysses" which came out in the mid-60s. About 1968, a friend of mine who was a grad student in English [dissertation on Randall Jarrell] came by my house with a story...as soon as he could quit laughing. He had just come from his mother's house where a drama had unfolded. (paraphrased, and a pale imitation of how Tony told it) His mother had asked him: "Tony, have you heard about this movie playing downtown, by 'James Lopez'?" Tony: "Who?" Mom: "James Lopez..it's called Ulysses, and it's filthy!" Tony: "Ulysses? That's by Joyce. I haven't seen it yet, but I want to." Mom: "Don't bother! It's filthy! I as going to suggest your sister's class go to it, because it's supposed to be 'historical', but I asked our pastor, and he said it's filthy!" Tony: "Mom-let me see the paper..." (looking at the movie ad, where with extreme contortions, the script for the name 'Joyce' could be mis-read as 'Lopez'. "Mom...that's the new movie about James JOYCE's famous book...it's supposed to be very good." Mom: "Is it historical?" Tony: "Well, sort of....It's famous, I think Janie's class would enjoy it." Mom:"Oh, no! They're only 14, the movie's filthy!" Tony: "Mom...there's a few words in it, but nothing they don't know, and besides, it's so complex that it won't make any difference." Mom: "Well, I don't want Janie going to anything like that..I don't care if it IS historical!" I think Tony took his sister later, without Mom knowing. |
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16 Aug 08 - 10:20 PM (#2415795) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Rapparee "Historical" depends upon your point of view, I guess. Wasn't James Lopez the pen name of James Joyce when he wrote for the "Madrid Enquirer"??? |
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17 Aug 08 - 06:35 AM (#2415928) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: kendall There are damn few books that I have started and unable to wade through. Ulysses is one of them. |
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17 Aug 08 - 09:11 AM (#2415982) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: GUEST,HiLo As Virginia Woolf said, "great art should not be so boring". The only book that I started but did not finish. |
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17 Aug 08 - 10:22 AM (#2416023) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Rapparee Some books I have started and never finished because they were boring: Tropic of Cancer Snow White Rememberance of Things Past Anglo-American Cataloging Rules The Brothers Karamozov Great Expectations Confessional of the Black Penitents Awful Confessions of Maria Monk Tropic of Capricorn There are a large number I never finished because they were (also) silly and/or inaccurate. But "Ulysses" is not on any such list. |
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17 Aug 08 - 11:56 AM (#2416086) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Bill D I went to Washington U. in St. Louis for one semester - fall of '59. Actually worked IN the library doing shelving while they were changing from Dewey Decimal to LC system..books kept disappearing from one area and reappearing in another...but that's another story. I had noticed in the card catalog that they had Tropic of Cancer listed! "Wow!" says I, all of 19 years old! (remember...this was 1959 and almost everything was banned) Turned out you had to ask for it at the desk, because it was the Obelisk Press edition from Paris about 1937, and it was kept in a vault because it was a 'rare book' and valued at about $200. So, the lady fetched it for me, explaining that "our students are allowed to see anything, as long as it's read here in this room". I read awhile and.....yep...there WERE some of 'those words' in print! And yes, Rapaire, it was kinda boring after the titillation value wore off. I suppose I only got thru 30-40 pages. The interesting thing is: within a few weeks of my 'seeing' formerly forbidden printed matter, stacks of "Lady Chatterly's Lover" appeared in the neighborhood bookstore! Our long Anthony Comstock nightmare was over, and soon every old 'forbidden' book was being published. |
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18 Aug 08 - 09:36 AM (#2416770) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Folk Form # 1 I couldn't get past the third page. Terrible writing. Terrible. I have several freinds who have tried to read it but gave up early on. The most over-rated book on the planet. Throw it on the boiler and use it for fuel. |
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18 Aug 08 - 10:46 AM (#2416820) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: curmudgeon Many years ago when I was teaching, a colleague had his high school seniors reading The Odyssey. he thought it wouldbe fitting to show them the film versionn with Kirk Douglas, titled Ulysses, and ordered the film(this was in the days before vidoetape). When it arrived, he was vey surprised to find a folm version of Joyce's book. But not wishing to waste an opportunity, he got the students to bring in parental permission slips and showed therm this film, with the uncut Molly Bloom soliloquy. Sadly, mpost of the students didn't like it; it was in black and white - Tom |
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18 Aug 08 - 01:32 PM (#2417002) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: PoppaGator I absolutely love Dubliners and reread it every few years. I was deeply impressed by Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man when I read it as a high-school student, but have not returned to it as frequently as I have to the short stories. I was unable to "get into" Ulysses when assigned during college, although I faked my way through discussions, papers, and tests and was able to score "A"s based upon my reading about the book rather than reading the actual book itself. (My sources included, but were not limited to, "Cliff Notes"; I found reputable academic criticism in the library to supplement my research.) I stumbled across a paperback Ulysses at someone's garage sale years later, maybe during my 30s or so, and eventually read the whole thing. I was impressed of course, but did not really enjoy it. I've glanced over FW and well as Joseph Campbell's Skeleton Key to Finnegans Wake, but do not have the slightest inclination to spend any of my time trying to wade through that particular text! James Joyce was obviously a highly talented writer and a genius of some kind or another, but I don't see eye-to-eye with his compulsion to become more and more obscure as time went on, eventually more-or-less creating his own private language. I believe that an artist should be trying to communicate to his audience, not to confound them or dare them to puzzle out his intentions. Different readers apparently "draw the line" at different points along the scale of Joycean obscurity. I believe that of the many folks who are very enthusiastic about Ulysses, most will go that far with JJ but no further, they're willing to leave Finnegans Wake alone. I'm a little less tolerant of Joyce's linguistic game-playing than the true lovers of Ulysses, and I think he would have left us a much greater literary legacy if he had stuck with relatively straightforward style of his earlier works, which were of course very great in their own right. I think that much of the cultish devotion to James Joyce involves love of Ireland and pride in Irishness more than any purely literary motivation. I can say that, because I have the same weakness myself. I probably would not have made the effort I did to plumb the depths of Ulysees if the author were English or of any other nationality. If the Russians Tolstoy and Dostoyevski, say, or the Argentinian Borges, were as deliberately obscure as Joyce, I doubt seriously that I would ever have read and enjoyed their momumental works. |
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18 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM (#2417281) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: GUEST,Gulliver I don't think Joyce set out to "entertain", as much as turn the previous idea of the novel (just emerging from Victorian times) on its head and show what could be done. By reading that guide I mentioned earlier I realized just how complex the book is, and a little of what Joyce was trying to do--in fact the guide alone was fascinating. And no one can deny that the book had a huge effect on subsequent novelists. Maybe somewhat like the effect Dylan had on music, when he started off. I'm sure that artists in other genres (Picasso?) were similarly ground-breaking. Don |
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18 Aug 08 - 08:54 PM (#2417375) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Rapparee There are a number of novelists who I have plodded through -- almost all of the Russians and Thomas Hardy for example. I must admit that I haven't read more than a few pages of Finnegan's Wake, although I have reader "Portrait of the artist as a young man" and "Dubliners" and the rest. I think that Joyce wasn't so much bringing the novel out of the Victorian Period (Hardy did that with "Jude the Obscure" and the rest) and translations of such tomes as "Crime and Punishment," "Remembrance of Things Past," Kafka's stuff and others help kill off such titles as those by Bulwer-Lytton. I think that the "Irishness" of Joyce is to be expected, just as I expect "Russianness" in "Anna Karenina" or "Englishness" in "Silas Marner". These people were, just as writers are today, products of there cultures. |
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18 Aug 08 - 09:45 PM (#2417400) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Riginslinger Well, writers will always be products of their cultures. How could they escape it? |
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18 Aug 08 - 09:55 PM (#2417406) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Rapparee Well, Samuel Beckett tried. I don't think he succeeded, but he tried. |
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18 Aug 08 - 11:05 PM (#2417429) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Q (Frank Staplin) Writers as products of their cultures- I remember an English lit class we had in college. The instructor was English, but this was in Texas. After concluding a review of a Hardy novel, most of us agreed with one student's assessment that it was so-so melodrama. The instructor was appalled at first, but after a discussion, he realized that it had little to do with western American culture, and to the students it was just an old time Harlequin. Finnegans Wake requires some knowledge of Irish culture, and a willingless to treat the language with freedom. |
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19 Aug 08 - 03:41 AM (#2417519) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Will Fly Reading this thread, I'm really going to have to give "Ulysses" yet another try - this'll be the third time - and I can see it on the shelf as I write this. Can't think why I've never managed it before. I've eaten up books like "War And Peace", "Tropic Of Cancer", "Great Expectations" (thanks for reminding me, Rapaire). Believe it or not, I read "Remembrance Of Things Past" - in the original French - over a period of about 2 years, while travelling from outer London suburbs to work and back each day! So I must not let "Ulysses" defeat me... But - Rapaire - what in God's name were you doing trying to read the "Ango-American Cataloguing Rules"? That's a book for librarians - and I should know - I had to use the damn thing at work for many years. |
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19 Aug 08 - 05:40 AM (#2417561) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Big Al Whittle I find Dubliners very depressing. Its picture of Dublin with all its ills could no doubt be a picture of the world our parents were born into - that would transfer into many other cities. I think you also get glimpses of that sadness and waste in Portrait, but it is subordinated to the eventually exultant vision of Stephen finding his way out of the stifling poverty of his life with all its its inhibitions and prohibtions. I've no idea how he managed such focus on Dublin - having left it so young. I've heard stories of him getting letters checking the facts about this or that. But i feel sure I never had such insight into my home town and its places and people, when I left it as a young man. You look back and wonder why certain people did such things and said this or that and led such lives - but you really have no idea. the difference with Ulysses is.... what a silly way to start a sentence, there are many glaring differences. Stylistic and so on. But its the objectivity which I found stunning. Its no longer a first person narrative...theres a real attempt to explain and relate to other feeings and thoughts. the language games, i do get impatient with. I don't have the education to understand all the references. the important thing is though, that he did it the way he thought it should be done. that's all you can ask of any artist - and all any artist can ask is that you respect that. |
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19 Aug 08 - 08:30 AM (#2417624) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Rapparee Will: MS in Library and Information Science, Case Western Reserve University; Cert in Advanced Library Management, Miami University; Associate Director, Technical Services for 10 years; cataloger for 2 years; reference librarian for 10 years; Associate Director, Adult Services, 8 years; currently Library Director of the Marshall Public Library in Pocatello, ID. Past Member of OCLC Ad Hoc Committee on Interlibrary Loan, ALA Notable Books Committee, et-bloody-cetera. I also find the Cutter-Sanborn Tables, Sears', and LCSH to be boring. |
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19 Aug 08 - 09:01 AM (#2417659) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Will Fly OMG - you poor thing! Actually - sounds like a superb career! Thank God I never have to read AACR again... |
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19 Aug 08 - 10:42 AM (#2417734) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: KB in Iowa I read through this thread yesterday morning (down to Penguin Egg @9:36 AM). I have also been reading Chronicles, vol 1 by Bob Dylan and last night I got to the point in his book where he mentions Ulysses and how he could never get into it. When I read that I thought about how I now had something to add to this thread (didn't before, have not read Ulysses). Then this morning as I was catching up on the new posts here I see "Maybe somewhat like the effect Dylan had on music" from Guest,Gulliver and just had to laugh. |
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19 Aug 08 - 12:28 PM (#2417817) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Rapparee Only if you're not the one who's intimately involved. |
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19 Aug 08 - 09:24 PM (#2418256) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Gulliver There's an extensive article (one of a bunch!) on Ulysses on Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_(novel) Don |
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19 Aug 08 - 11:51 PM (#2418347) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Neil D I tried and gave up on "Ulysses" when I was about twenty. Then a few years back I became determined to read it through and not give up. At first it was like swimming in mud but finally I started to get the feel for the stream-of-conciousness thing he was doing and it started to sink in. He's not trying to communicate in narrative form. He is depicting the way the mind works internally, with half-thoughts and shorthand, pictures and imagery. It's like jazz, once you get the rhythm down it really starts to flow. |
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24 Aug 08 - 10:51 AM (#2421184) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Big Al Whittle JAMES JOYCE ALERT! There is a film called Nora on ITV3 tonight at 9pm all about yerrman and Nora Barnacle, starring Ewan MacGregor and Susan Lynch. |
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24 Aug 08 - 04:51 PM (#2421391) Subject: RE: BS: Joyce's 'Ulysses' From: Peter T. For anyone starting to read Ulysses I would suggest one of the guides that has a map or maps in it. It really does give one a running start (well, a walking start). I'm one of those people that don't mind sinking into a big world. I loved Proust, have read War and Peace a couple of times, as well as Ulysses. But the only really good film of any of the three discussed is the BBC War and Peace (truly one of the greatest things ever -- almost as good as the book). The Ulysses film is OK; the film Nora is not bad: Ewan M. is, however, no Joyce. His wife, however, is terrific. But the best part of Nora is Trieste. yours, Peter T. |