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18 Aug 08 - 08:20 AM (#2416697) Subject: BS: When dictators step down From: Donuel Musharev, Pakistan's milatry dictator, quit today and made an hour long goodbye speech on TV. Last year he fired judges, imposed code Red emergency as a cover and sent troops to imprison lawyers who sought Justice One tragedy is the murder of Bhutto (again) who Musharev reportedly refused to provide security for. IT makes her death even more pointless. One of the last times I saw dictator Musharev was on the John Stewart show. John's cowardly subserviant behavior was a low point of his career imo. When dictators step down justice is rarely served. George should take a lesson from Perves. Everyone is asking "Is the devil we will get be worse than the one we had? |
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18 Aug 08 - 08:23 AM (#2416702) Subject: RE: BS: When dictators step down From: Rapparee Justice is not served if a dictator simply steps down. Justice is served when s/he is made to understand what and why s/he did were crimes and the crimes expiated under the Law. |
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18 Aug 08 - 11:06 AM (#2416831) Subject: RE: BS: When dictators step down From: Donuel Nixon stepped down in similar circumstances. He never learned. In fact while in disgrace his protoge' was a young Austrian actor by the name of Schwartzenegger. Politics is a popularity contest that often treats justice as its primary foe. |
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18 Aug 08 - 11:46 AM (#2416874) Subject: RE: BS: When dictators step down From: Ebbie No doubt it is a failing on my part, Donuel, but very often I don't follow your pronouncements. Assuming he did, in what way and for what reason was Nixon wrong in taking Schwartzenegger under his wing? Much to my surprise, it seems to me that Arnold is the best thing that has happened in California in recent years. |
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18 Aug 08 - 11:55 AM (#2416881) Subject: RE: BS: When dictators step down From: pdq ".. it seems to me that Arnold is the best thing that has happened in California in recent years." Quite right on that one. Schwartzenegger has the respect of many liberal activists as well as working people. Even respected by street gangs thugs. He has good executive skills and is positive, even inspirational to some people. |
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18 Aug 08 - 12:18 PM (#2416896) Subject: RE: BS: When dictators step down From: Donuel Good on you Ebbie, You probably don't hold to everything Lincoln said either. I simply do not have the forgiveness of Abraham Lincoln, I wish I did. I would hope I share his plain spoken ideals. I didn't say Dick and Arnie was a bad thing. Ironic in the extreme but not bad The universe of Justice contains very little fairness and a fair amount of even less idealism. The Bushs have jailed world leaders, ordered assasinations and conducted the hanging of Saddam and his followers...yet somehow the Bush dynasty have immunity for their own war crimes and treasury looting treason. I anxiously await the fate of Musharev. Justice delayed is justice denied, as in the case of Pinochet. |
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18 Aug 08 - 12:58 PM (#2416948) Subject: RE: BS: When dictators step down From: Donuel The deeper undercurrent of my thinkiing is this: After the American Civil War where neighbors who had actually killed each others families, forgivenes was essential to go forward as a nation. Lincoln called for forgiveness. He was killed. It may have been essential for him to be killed a martyr to be symbolic of forgivenss for everyone in the nation. Like Christ, the lesson of dying for your sins is clear. All my life I have encountered various smaller versions of Hitler, Stalin and ethnic religious purists of every stripe. The 'Love it or leave it' people, the 'you are a traitor' if you don't support the war du jour' types have grown more audacious in recent times. We are poised to elect a President who will either magnify the voice of war for economic gain or forgive those voices and make a change. My moral delemma is that I do not feel a forgiveness in my bones. I do hold my Republican war mongering neighbor personally respondsible for the theft and murder of the Bush administrations. He has never apologized and never will. IF the the right should kill the populist President again, it will not result in a symbolic forgivess like Lincoln, but rather an IMPLOSION of the entire country. Goverments and western religion always colaborrate whenm it comes to war. The conspiracy of Billy Graham shows to glorify war and Pentagon plans going hand in hand is the way my country encourages the "faithful" to go to war. A role of religion was to settle people down after wars of economic explotation and to accept forgiveess of all concerned, except the non believers. Perhaps this time forgiveness is out of reach. |
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18 Aug 08 - 01:05 PM (#2416955) Subject: RE: BS: When dictators step down From: Donuel A failure of forgiveness may be the gratest tragedy of all. Arab orphans will reach their own conclusions, as will you. |
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18 Aug 08 - 01:35 PM (#2417006) Subject: RE: BS: When dictators step down From: bankley I like when they step down through a hole in the scaffold with a rope necklace.... unfortunately most don't.. some buy land in Paraguay for retirement purposes |
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18 Aug 08 - 02:57 PM (#2417089) Subject: RE: BS: When dictators step down From: Donuel It seems it is either difficult or dangerous for people to soul search how they feel about poloitical gluttons for murder, rape theft and torture. Do you really automaticly forgive? do you rationalize an immunity for war criminals? Do you not care "Live and let die". |
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18 Aug 08 - 02:58 PM (#2417093) Subject: RE: BS: When dictators step down From: alanabit I follow your reasoning Donuel. However, I also fear that you are aspiring to a sort of justice, which is not available in this world. Even the most unsavoury dictators have their supporters and apologists. That is one of the reasons why they are rarely subject to due process of the law, even after they have fallen. The most important thing is that they are prevented from causing further injustice. Genuine redress for victims is so rare (regrettably) that it seems almost futile to pursue it. For a start, who is going to accept liability? The most we can realistically hope for is that we will be more careful to prevent other tyrants from replacing the ones who fall. I can well sympathise with those, who hope that after death, the thugs of this world will face a higher court in the next. In cases like this one it is a comforting belief. I hope they are right. |
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18 Aug 08 - 03:30 PM (#2417124) Subject: RE: BS: When dictators step down From: Bert ...Even respected by street gangs thugs... Now there's a recommendation!!! |
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18 Aug 08 - 03:45 PM (#2417136) Subject: RE: BS: When dictators step down From: Donuel alanabit Right ON. It is justice and our attitude for forgiveness which I question. Even for Plato it was considered subversive to ask citizens "What is Justice?" I think we are given a teaching that all forgiveness is always best and always required for a good life. I am not so sure. The subject is enormous with huge implications and can be viewed through many different lenses of philosophy, psychology and law. I guess I vicariously would like to know if YOU can forgive the war and the torure and the theft? |
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18 Aug 08 - 03:54 PM (#2417151) Subject: RE: BS: When dictators step down From: Donuel Rumsfeld is on the run when in Europe. He is subject toarrest in several countries. http://www.pensitoreview.com/2007/10/27/rumsfeld-flees-france-to-avoid-arrest/ |
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18 Aug 08 - 04:05 PM (#2417162) Subject: RE: BS: When dictators step down From: alanabit Donuel, on a personal basis probably not if I am to be honest. It is a bit like my attitude to crime. On a personal basis, I would like to get hold of some of the cruellest offenders and rip them to pieces. That would be even more true if my friends or family had suffered. A responsible society has to do a bit better than that. A bastard like say Pinochet, for instance, deserved to be hanged many times over. Even those, who would happily have strung him up, would have to admit that it could only have been done once. So any sort of realistic retribution is out of the question for a start. I like something, which McGrath of Harlow said a couple of years back. He said that forgiveness is good for the wronged. I can't speak for Kevin, but I assume he meant that it relieved them from wasting energy on something, which they could not hope to achieve anyway. In any event, I can't imagine a more complete and satisfying revenge than getting genuine repentence or a sincere apology from the perpetrator. It does not always happen, but it has happened in many cases and it will happen again. I quite like the Bhuddist attitude of that magnificent Burmese woman Aung San Suu Kyi, who believes that it is better by far to suffer from evil than it is to perpetrate it. She believes that the only real harm, which can come to you, is if you do wrong. I believe she is right. Whether I could ever live up to those demanding standards is another question! |
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18 Aug 08 - 06:30 PM (#2417272) Subject: RE: BS: When dictators step down From: Donuel Indeed it is good for the wronged. The Hutu and Tutsies are examples. Half a million people hacked to death. With our missles we can slay 500 million an hour. |
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18 Aug 08 - 06:34 PM (#2417273) Subject: RE: BS: When dictators step down From: Ebbie In my own life there came a time when I became willing to forgive a certain person. It didn't mean, at all, that I had already forgiven him, only that I now wished to, mostly for my own sake and to release both of us from the past years. I came to believe that that was the important thing. Forgiveness did evnentually come; I think it would not have happened had I not created the space where it could. |
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18 Aug 08 - 06:47 PM (#2417290) Subject: RE: BS: When dictators step down From: Leadfingers I heard a comment on the radio today that Musharraf has NOT (unlike SO many) been salting away vast amounts of illicit cash , so the inference is that he may have been a Bastard , but he was not a totally dishonest one ! |
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19 Aug 08 - 09:21 AM (#2417675) Subject: RE: BS: When dictators step down From: bankley he might show up on GWB's ranch in Paraguay yet... although they just elected a new president there,Fernando Lugo, putting an end to 60 yrs. of one-party rule which might put an end to the non-extradition policy regarding war criminals.... |
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19 Aug 08 - 12:51 PM (#2417832) Subject: RE: BS: When dictators step down From: Donuel Paraguay...the new Argentina? Better than a million anti war protestors would be a Forgivathon. What nazi neocons did is and will always be wrong but forgiveness must begin with those who are capable. |
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19 Aug 08 - 02:29 PM (#2417913) Subject: RE: BS: When dictators step down From: GUEST,Volgadon Forgiveness isn't automatic, it takes a lot of HARD WORK, but not only does it put you in a position of strength, it is essential if we want this day to arrive: Then let us pray that come it may (As come it will for a' that) That Sense and Worth o'er a' the earth Shall bear the gree an' a' that! For a' that, an' a' that, It's comin yet for a' that, That man to man the world o'er Shall brithers be for a' that. And, no, forgiving doesn't mean that you aprove of or condone what the person does, it's accepting them as a brother DESPITE what they did. |
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19 Aug 08 - 03:40 PM (#2417972) Subject: RE: BS: When dictators step down From: bankley " Father forgive us for what we must do, If you forgive us, we'll forgive you We'll forgive each other 'til we both turn blue Then we'll whistle and go fishin' up in heaven " John Prine |
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19 Aug 08 - 04:42 PM (#2418021) Subject: RE: BS: When dictators step down From: Ebbie Learn somp'n ever day. George W Bush has a ranch in Paraguay? Link? |
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20 Aug 08 - 01:06 PM (#2418724) Subject: RE: BS: When dictators step down From: bankley yeah, he sent one of the twins, maybe Jenna, about a year ago to buy around 90,000 acres.... that'll keep him busy clearing brush for awhile.... |