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26 Aug 08 - 05:39 PM (#2422796) Subject: BS: McCrash From: Stringsinger OpEdNews Original Content at http://www.opednews.com/articles/McCrash-McCain-s-Military-by-Hill-Kemp-080823-263.html August 23, 2008 McCrash: McCain's Military Record Revisited By Hill Kemp MCCAINS WAR KILL SCORE: 167 US SAILORS, 15 US JETS, 60 ENEMIES? When John McCain crashed his fifth navy fighter plane he was captured by the North Vietnamese. That crash gave him his greatest claim to fame and made him a national celebrity. But the in run-up to that incident hides a whole other story. Acclaimed war hero McCain clearly demonstrated his rating in the lowest 0.5% in his military class of 900 during his tour of duty in Viet Nam. On June 27, 1967 aboard the USS Forrestal 167 US sailors lost their lives in a giant fire and a series of explosions. The crewmen who had to fight that fire for 24 hours to keep the aircraft carrier from sinking were looking for the "hotdog" pilot they thought started the chain reaction disaster. But they were too late to find him. John McCain, whose dad was a Pentagon bigwig, left the ship the next morning taking up a space on a helicopter meant to evacuate the wounded. He was the only pilot transferred to another ship from the Forrestal after the incident in what is likely the fastest military transfer in recorded history - a kind of "cut and run" that left his grieving shipmates behind. His evacuation probably kept the death toll from going to 168 if the crewmen could have found the pilot who "wet-started" his A-4E Skyhawk fighter jet and triggered the incident. "Wet-starting" means pooling jet fuel in the engine before starting it to send a flash of flame out the engine exhaust. (XA4D-1 Skyhawk BuNo 137812) This was done to shake up the pilot in the F-4 fighter behind him. But in the confusion a rocket went off, bombs were dropped on the ship deck and the chain reaction disaster was underway. The ship was so damaged it had to be taken out of the war effort. Those 15 US jets lost? Well, McCain outright crashed five from the pilot seat. His whispered nickname was "McCrash". His fifth crash earned him POW status as his principal claim to heroic fame. The other ten planes lost were casualties of the juvenile 'hotdogging' on the Forrestal deck that terrible day. The financial cost for his stint in the service, even in 1967 dollars, was in the tens of millions. Oh, and his flights before being captured probably amounted to a few casualties on the other side. Sixty is a high side estimate. (Based on official naval film account, a McCain campaign film adapting the record and testimony of sailors from the ship.) Authors Website: www.capitoloffense.com Authors Bio: Hill Kemp is a former Texas State Representative and his novel, Capitol Offense, ISBN 1878096702, rips away the Austin facade and reveals a surprising cast of the real players and their cut-throat contentions. In the place where George W. Bush and Karl Rove learned their abc's of governing, Kemp's novel exposes the hidden 90% of the governing process which never makes its way into the news. Capitol Offense, is a parody of then governor Bush and virtually a literary political cartoon. The page-turner was labeled "dangerously close to reality" by one Austin, Texas veteran. An equally gripping sequel A Lone Star Special (ISBN9781935137450) released in August, 2008 drives the legislative thriller path further into the murky depths of Texas politics. His children's chapter book, Lucky Penny. This e-book is in production. Hill Kemp lives in the forest and lake country in northwest Louisiana. He is the father of two and grandfather of three. You can reach Hill Kemp through his website: http://www.capitoloffense.com |
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26 Aug 08 - 05:42 PM (#2422799) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Sorcha Oh my goodness. |
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26 Aug 08 - 05:49 PM (#2422808) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: bobad It sounds like he was the Joe Btfsplk of the navy. |
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26 Aug 08 - 05:51 PM (#2422812) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Bobert Wow, wonder if the Swiftboaters are going to get behind this??? Purdy lousy pilot I'd say... (But, Boberdz, didn't you and yer brother crash a Piper Cub back long time ago???) Well, yeah, but we got it out of our system after one crash... Maybe the North Vietnamese did the US a favor if McCain really was that clueless about flyin'??? B~ |
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26 Aug 08 - 05:51 PM (#2422813) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: pdq I think if you look for the truth (unlikely) you will find that Lt. McCain was walking accross the deck of the Forresthal after an uneventful landing. His jet was safely parked and tethered as it should have been. Another jet crash landed, slid into McCain's parked plane and ruptured the fuel tank. He had his helmet off and was talking to somebody when the crash occurred behind him. There is film of the incident and it has been shown on national television in the last 10 years or so. |
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26 Aug 08 - 06:05 PM (#2422828) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: GUEST,beardedbruce don't confuse Bobert with the truth- it just makes him more likely to insist on the lie being spread. |
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26 Aug 08 - 06:08 PM (#2422831) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: GUEST,VOT McCain's gonna win, that's the only truth I know |
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26 Aug 08 - 06:08 PM (#2422833) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Peace Bobert--let's get to something important. Got your CD and I love it. Your treatment of the Dylan song at cut one is the best I ever heard, and that includes Dylan's. Great one, man. |
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26 Aug 08 - 06:09 PM (#2422834) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: artbrooks BB, I believe that this "urban legend" comes from Stringslinger. |
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26 Aug 08 - 06:11 PM (#2422837) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: pdq The "you" was not aimed a Bobert. |
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26 Aug 08 - 06:18 PM (#2422842) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Rapparee That's not the story I heard at the time the Forrestall was burned. I think I'll do some more digging. The Truth is out there. |
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26 Aug 08 - 06:41 PM (#2422852) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: GUEST,beardedbruce "Any allegation of John McCain having any culpability for the fire are unequivocally false. The primary source for any discussion of the fire should be the Navy's own 6,000-page report. In this report (compete with diagrams and all the minutia of the day) outside of being listed with various crew in different attachments, McCain's name only surfaces in two affidavits he supplied to the board. One from the day of the fire, one from Subic Bay two days later. He was not a "suspect" or person of interest. He was simply one of the witnesses. To that point, it should be noted that nowhere in those 6,000 pages does it state that the Zuni rocket struck AA416 (McCain's A-4E). EVERY note, reference, citation states that the Zuni hit AA-405, LCDR Fred White's A-4E. McCain himself, in the depositions states in the first that he "thought" it was his plane that was hit, but was not certain. In the second, he was certain it hit the other aircraft. Just as an aside, all DANFS citations should be regarded with skepticism. It is not a primary source and has a bad reputation among historians. The report does not point to a single individual. As the previous author noted, Bangert and McKay were absolved. The culprit, according to the board, was a "stray voltage," a spark, on a test plug. The squadron was also using unauthorized procedures for launch preparations that contributed to the event" |
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26 Aug 08 - 06:44 PM (#2422853) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: catspaw49 You're all wrong btw and especially that bull that started the post. I'm certainly no McCain fan but I AM an avid watcher of the History Channel and the Military Channel. There is an excellent piece (not focusing on McCain) that has the official Navy film of this disaster aboard the Forrestal. The jets are parked along the sides and after the fire starts you can see McCain climb out of his cockpit, walk along the nose, and jump to the deck just clear of the fire. There has been much written on the web on BOTH sides but the film evidence discounts a good deal of what is being said. YOu can find the video on YouTube. ANd yes.......Much like the "Swiftboating" of Kerry, this too is a smear campaign. The fact that I liked Kerry and dislike McCain doesn't enter into the fact that both were and are horseshit. Spaw |
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26 Aug 08 - 06:47 PM (#2422856) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: The Fooles Troupe From what I heard, Texas Politics ain't NOTHING compared to Chicago Politics... :-) |
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26 Aug 08 - 06:47 PM (#2422858) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: catspaw49 Got waylaid by my son while typing the preceding post......Thanks to beardedbruce,pdq, and Rap for helping out here. Its a horseshit story and Peace hits the nail on the head. Spaw |
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26 Aug 08 - 06:54 PM (#2422869) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: pdq Yes, I stand corrected. McCain jumped from the plane and walked away, trying to avoid the spilled fuel. But his plane was parked and he had nothing to do with causing the problems. |
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26 Aug 08 - 06:54 PM (#2422871) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Rapparee I heard McCain's role described pretty much as Spaw described it. He leaves his cockpit and crosses the deck when the fireworks start. |
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26 Aug 08 - 07:00 PM (#2422873) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Rapparee By the way, I think that "swiftboating" (as it is known) is the most reprehensible development in recent politics. If Kerry didn't deserve the Silver Star, why did his commanding officer (who was part of the "Swift Boat Veterans") recommend him for it? There is even a movement to denigrate Bob Kerrey's Medal of Honor! I've noticed that much of this starts with people who never served in the military...people like good ol' Karl "1-H ("Not for induction at this time")" Rove. I helped a friend of mine obtain a CO status when I returned from Active Duty; he ended up working in a ghetto school in Milwaukee. I don't care if you were in the military or not, but don't spread any more lies than are already out there -- about either side of the '60s. |
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26 Aug 08 - 07:03 PM (#2422875) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Barry Finn I'd like to see that this report weither true of false be used & swiftboated against MaCrash just like it was used on Kerry. Payback sucks don't it. About time the dems used NASTY against those that invented it. Barry |
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26 Aug 08 - 07:05 PM (#2422876) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Peace It would be nice to find the source of that story and track down the people who started it. One thing I HAVE noticed is that when the reprehensible stories about Kerry were working their way around the www, not too many non-Democrats were asking for fairness. I guess that's one of the things that separates voters from the two main sides in the US: Democrat voters tend to have a greater sense of fairness. Your mileage may vary on that, and no, I don't care to argue the point. Just an observation. |
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26 Aug 08 - 07:14 PM (#2422883) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Peace With regard to one of Rapaire's posts. He and I have a good friendship despite having been on 'option that stories of that nature about Mcposite' sides of the Vietnam issue in the 1960s. One of the things I admire about the ol' fart is that he not only talks the talk but also walks the walk. I think in terms of this election that stories of that nature about McCain are beneath contempt (and that is not directed at Stringsinger). And the people who start stories like that are equally beneath contempt. Democrats don't need shit like that to 'win'. I'd bet that Obama speaks to the issue at some point (soon I hope), and that's as it should be. Fuck the Republican tactics. |
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26 Aug 08 - 07:19 PM (#2422884) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Peace "With regard to one of Rapaire's posts. He and I have a good friendship despite having been on 'option that stories of that nature about Mcposite' sides of the Vietnam issue in the 1960s. One of the things I admire about the ol' fart is that he not only talks the talk but also walks the walk." JAYSUS, lemme try that again. Something really screwed up with this laptop. "With regard to one of Rapaire's posts. He and I have a good friendship despite having been on opposite sides of the Vietnam issue in the 1960s. One of the things I admire about the ol' fart is that he not only talks the talk but also walks the walk." |
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26 Aug 08 - 07:37 PM (#2422895) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Bobert Thanks, brucie... I been playin' that song off and on for 40 years so I reckon I oughtta be able to at least half hit the sumabich... Speakin' of hittin' the sumabich, why does it matter if McCain was the one who crashed the plane??? Hey, 4 years ago I didn't hear a peep outta any of you Bushites when lies were being told about John Kerry??? I mean, even if it is a lie, I couldn't care less... If it gains traction and creates doubt about McCain in the minds of the voters, so be it... What's good for the goose is good for the gander... I mean, what a pile of hypocrsiy on the local Bushites part... Where were you when the lies were being fabricated against John Kerry??? Any of you Bushites want to take a stab at that??? (But Boberdz, this is different...) Oh??? How is it different... Or how is it different than when Karl Rove put out lies on that Senator from Georgia who lost both legs and an arm ion Vietnam??? Yeah, tell me exactly why this is different??? Bunch of hypocrits as far as I can see... B~ |
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26 Aug 08 - 07:47 PM (#2422905) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: GUEST,beardedbruce http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/swift.asp " I mean, even if it is a lie, I couldn't care less... If it gains traction and creates doubt about McCain in the minds of the voters, so be it... " I will be sure to remember this when you talk about the ads about O'bomber. as YOU say, "What's good for the goose is good for the gander..." Uniter? "Bunch of hypocrites as far as I can see..." |
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26 Aug 08 - 07:54 PM (#2422910) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Bobert You didn't bother to answer the question, bb, as to why you didn't defend John Kerry against the Swiftboat Liars... Do you expect me to have a higher standard than yourself??? That is what hypocrisy is, bb... It's okay in yer book for your folks to lie about Kerry because Kerry, to you, is the enemy but not okay for folks to lie about McCain??? Can you explain your logic??? B~ |
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26 Aug 08 - 07:55 PM (#2422911) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: olddude to me what the difference between the democrats and republican is a matter of truth. The republican will do anything to stay in power and say anything to stay in power. The democrats in my opinion don't need that or do that, the truth and the general fuck ups of the the republicans is all they need. By the way, I was a registered republican for years, then I grew up... I hate this story because it is beneath the democratic party. It is the rat fucking techniques that Nixon started and has been perfected by the republicans. Look at the swift boat shit .. total shit. More disturbing is there are americans that believe it. I don't like McCain at all, but i dont' think we need this to beat him. The track record of GW is more than enough |
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26 Aug 08 - 08:07 PM (#2422920) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: CarolC I'd like to know more about the five planes he actually did crash, and how that number compares to whatever the average was at that time for people in his position crashing planes. |
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26 Aug 08 - 08:11 PM (#2422923) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: CarolC Heh... I just had a thought. Maybe the person who started this rumor did it for damage control. Maybe someone figured if they tacked the bit about the five crashes onto the tail end of a great big honking lie, nobody would bother to ask the questions I asked in my last post because they'd be too focused on the big lie. |
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26 Aug 08 - 08:14 PM (#2422926) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: GUEST,beardedbruce last guest was me |
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26 Aug 08 - 08:23 PM (#2422931) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: GUEST,beardedbruce let me try again: Bobert- YOU state:" You didn't bother to answer the question, bb, as to why you didn't defend John Kerry against the Swiftboat Liars..." I was waiting for YOU to defend the Bush administration against the opinions that Amos and others stated. The so-called "Swiftboat" lies were opinions stated by some of the people who served with Kerry- others stated other opinions, and I was NOT there to determine the truth, nor had any reports one way or the other. The lies of fact that you are supporting against McCain are well documented as being false. "o you expect me to have a higher standard than yourself???" As the Uber-mensch who is so superiour to those of us who disagree with you, YES, I do. :"at is what hypocrisy is, bb... It's okay in yer book for your folks to lie about Kerry because Kerry, to you, is the enemy but not okay for folks to lie about McCain???" YOU seem happy to have your folks lie about those you dislike: Why should I be any different?? "an you explain your logic???" I have done so- now explain YOURS. When the same tactics that you advocate against McCain are used against O'bomber, you had best not complain. |
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26 Aug 08 - 08:26 PM (#2422933) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: GUEST,beardedbruce BTW, Bobert, you are entitled to your opinion- I will not dispute that- BUT facts are more important than partisan bigotry. |
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26 Aug 08 - 08:27 PM (#2422934) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: The Fooles Troupe "what the difference between the democrats and republicans" As far as those outside the US can see, it's just the same as Orwell described in Animal Farm near the end - 'the animals looked from men to pigs and pigs back to men, and could see no difference'... or similar... and as long as you have the "two psuedo-party circus" with first past the post voting, I don't think you can change that... |
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26 Aug 08 - 08:28 PM (#2422935) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Bobert That thought crossed my mind aas well, CarolC... Tghe Repubs are so sneaky that they might have put this out... I have often wondered in Karl Rove didn't have something to do with the fake documents that found their way into Dan Rather's hands and purdy much ended the discussion on why Bush went AWOL... Hey, it worked... I fully agree with olddude on this one... Whereas I really am not ready to engage in Republican-like slime I do find it fun to point out the hypocrisy of the Bushites here... And like I have said before, if I was John McCain's CO and he crashed even one high dollar airplane he would have been grounded... That is why pilots spend lots of time in similators... Let them crash them over and over... That is what they are for... There is no excuse for crashing a real plane if you are trained unless the plane is messed up... B~ |
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26 Aug 08 - 08:31 PM (#2422940) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Emma B That thought crossed my mind aas well Foolestroupe |
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26 Aug 08 - 08:34 PM (#2422941) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: GUEST,beardedbruce What I find on the five crashes: "McCain Didn't Crash Five Planes? The Corner has an item up that appears to be false. Will McCain, who finished 894th out of 899 at the Naval Academy and who lost five jets, return competence to the White House? I'd wager it comes from this story which mentions his Father getting his wings at age 50. Slew McCain was so driven that when the navy passed a rule saying only aviators could command a carrier, the old man went to flight school while in his fifties. He crashed five planes before finally getting his wings, and then his carrier. In one Pacific battle, planes under Slew McCain's command sank 49 Japanese ships in a single day." So the crashed planes were by his father- but I presume that Bobert will blame the child for the sins of the father (except for O'Bomber, of course) But it is certainly not worth trying to verify facts, when lies are so much more satisfying. |
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26 Aug 08 - 08:44 PM (#2422946) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Bobert What does o'Bomber mean to you, bb??? Please expalin why you think it is perfectly okay to dis Barak Obama for suggesting that he would support a policy that the Bush administration currently has in place... Or why you think that McCain is some hero because, inspite of his bluster to follow Osama bin Laden to the gates of Hell, that he (or you) think it's okay to not have a policy that would allow you to take Osama out if you had actionable intellegence and could get him with a Preditor??? You, bb, make absolutely no sense... You dis a guy for saying that he would continue a Bush policy that would get Osama bin Laden and support a guy who wouldn't... You are a real piece or work, BB... Try independent thought now and then... I really dosen't hurt... B~ |
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26 Aug 08 - 08:57 PM (#2422950) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: GUEST,Beardedbruce I use O'bomber because of your various names for McCain. You use his real name and I will, as well. YOU are a lousy Ubermensch, Bobert. |
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26 Aug 08 - 09:00 PM (#2422953) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Sorcha Me, I stand corrected on the Forrestal fire incident. Not sure about the others yet. I'll look, but we DO tend to blame the son for the failures of the Father...the Father did raise the son after all. See Bush. See Kennedy. I do try to be an Equal Opportunity Disser. Bobert...I do tend to agree with you on this one. o |
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26 Aug 08 - 09:24 PM (#2422970) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Rapparee Let me clarify something: I was not for the Vietnam War in the '60s. In fact, I don't know anyone who was -- especially not among the guys getting shot at. Yes, there were those who wanted to "kill gooks" but they were quickly disabused of any fantasies by the crack-thump of the first bullet past their head or the first person they saw wounded or dead (those who weren't were mentally ill, and I knew some of them as well). I served because I had given my word that I would do so. So did my brothers, both of whom served in Vietnam and came under fire there. I was in the DMZ War in Korea, where the killing was retail rather than wholesale and yes, I was shot at. It didn't matter -- dead's dead, whether it's in the jungle or in the mountains. And as I sat in the SeaTac airport, all of the Korea and Vietnam returnees on one side of the aisle and the stragglers from Woodstock on the other, I thought "A haircut and change clothes and you couldn't tell who's who." |
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26 Aug 08 - 09:27 PM (#2422973) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Bobert Ya' mean McNasty, bb??? He is.. You mean McWar, bb??? He is... You mean McMischief, bb??? He is... You mean McUgly, bb??? He is... I mean, I'm dealing with reality here... The guy is a blowhard who never met a war not worth starting... He is nasty... He is mischievious and he is butt ugly... As for Obama??? Hey, he doesn't go off with the theatrics like McActor... He just states calmly that if he has "actionable intellegence" that folks are about to attack us and Pakistan refuses to act that he will... Duhhhhhh??? This should be a no-brainer but you and yer hero John MCain think this shows a weakness on Obama's part??? Just how do you define weakness when yer guy, who says he's gonna get Osama and then belittles a policy that would allow US to, ahhhhhhh, friggin' get Osama if Pakistan wouldn't... Can you expalin this, bb, because so far you explanations leave a lot to be desired when it comes to adult reasoning??? B~ |
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26 Aug 08 - 09:39 PM (#2422980) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: GUEST,Joe Offer, at the Women's Center It wasn't right when they smeared Kerry's military record, and it's not right to do it to McCain. Both men are one in a thousand in the book of heroism. Certainly, they made mistakes - but both are genuine and admirable heroes. I think Barack Obama is a hero, too - but he showed his courage in non-military situations. Don't ask me about George W. Bush. -Joe Offer- I did my time and got out - no heroics on my part |
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26 Aug 08 - 10:24 PM (#2423008) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: artbrooks I have a great deal of respect for Senator McCain's military career, before, after and including his period of captivity. That doesn't mean that I think he is the best candidate for President - or that he is in the top 50. Senator Obama may also not be the best possible future President. However, IMNSHO, the latter trumps the former. |
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26 Aug 08 - 10:42 PM (#2423013) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: GUEST,TIA BB says... "The so-called "Swiftboat" lies were opinions stated by some of the people who served with Kerry- " Read your own d*^mn link. Only *one* 1 one!!@@ 1 !!!! of the myriad swift boat f787ckheads it quotes actually served with Kerry. The men who actually served with Kerry (except taht one 1 one 1!!!!! have not a single bad word to say about him. Go read your own Snopes link!!!!!!!!!! |
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26 Aug 08 - 10:51 PM (#2423017) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: catspaw49 I wonder if McCrash will get any mileage out of his service or will Hussein Obama take him down? Will McWar triumph or will Obama-Ramma-Ding-Dong carry the day? Now ain't that just silly? I catch a lot of flak anymore for dissing folks and playin' the dozens with amateurs.....that all of that is childish....which it is of course. But it doesn't hold a candle to this sillyass name calling......
Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary. If it does, fuck-off. |
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26 Aug 08 - 10:59 PM (#2423019) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Donuel I have seen the films of the Forrestal disaster and the bombs that dropped was a technical fault and not human error. The pilot who was in the plane that fired a missle on deck was not McCain. McCain did have multiple crashes. I do not know if he was evacuated from the Forrestal but this should be checkable even if sanitized at this late date. |
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27 Aug 08 - 12:16 AM (#2423055) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: CarolC The organization, Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain have a lot to say on the crashed planes (and a few other things as well). I don't know how much is true, however... http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_mccain_lost_five_u.htm |
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27 Aug 08 - 01:17 AM (#2423066) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: CarolC Here's another source for that last one I posted... http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_11_16/ai_61361646 It was an article written for Insight Magazine by Kelly Patricia O'Meara. |
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27 Aug 08 - 01:26 AM (#2423069) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: DougR Bobert: so McCain would have been a hero had he leaped into the fire instead of safety? Right. DougR |
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27 Aug 08 - 03:37 AM (#2423086) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: catspaw49 Geeziz, I hate to defend McCain.............Kerry took a royal fucking so I'd love to see the same happen to McCain but truth is, I was disgusted with the tactics then and I'm disgusted now. Yeah.....McCain "LOST" 5 aircraft: 1) One was a training accident. So what? Training accident......Shit Happens 2) He fucked up and took out some power lines...his fault....pilot error. 3) A flameout with no restart. A common scenario and NOT pilot error. Crashing due to engine failure started with powered flight ferchrissakes. 4) The Forrestal fire. He had nothing to do with starting this in any way and could just as easily been killed. Video proves he was another innocent victim. 5) Shot down over VietNam by a SAM. This happened to quite a few pilots. Kennedy lost his PT boat. Quite arguably it could have been avoided. Kerry didn't deserve it and much as I hate to say it, neither does McCain. Spaw |
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27 Aug 08 - 03:51 AM (#2423092) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Barry Finn "Bobert: so McCain would have been a hero had he leaped into the fire instead of safety?" No, but it would've gotten him out of the pan. He's no hero, at all! Why don't the dems call him out on the idea he's using this when he ain't what he ain't, and a hero isn't what he is, not even close. If anything he's only just got a hero complex, big chest with loads of metals in/on it but with no good reason to pin them on to anything! No reason at all! Barry |
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27 Aug 08 - 07:27 AM (#2423184) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Bobert That's me point, Barry... McCain is now using his POW status to try to defend the fact that he owns 7 houses... That's a bunch of crap... No, really... I agree with Spaw on this one... I don't want to see McCain villified for his service... I was just pointing out thw total hypocrisy of the Bushites here who delighted when it was Kerry who was getting Swiftboated who are now horror-struck that anyone would dare so the same to McCain.. That is my point... "Dozens", Spawzer??? I'm impressed... B~ |
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27 Aug 08 - 09:12 AM (#2423258) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor I'm starting to wonder if he isn't going to the POW well a few too many times. It's a "get out of jail" card now but if he is elected, he'll have to do things to get us out of tight situations. |
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27 Aug 08 - 09:30 AM (#2423270) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Rapparee Right on, Spaw. Lots of veterans. Even a lot of POWs of various wars, declared and unconstitutional. Hell, I know several and some of them I wouldn't trust with a rubber spoon much less the country. Lots of veterans, including myself. And I'm still running for President, and I'll let Bobert be VP (he can be in charge of the vice). I'm a veteran! And I promise to resign as soon as I'm qualified for the retirement benefits that go with the job. "VOTE RAPAIRE! HE'S ONLY IN IT FOR THE MONEY!! (And he's a veteran AND he's got medals!)" |
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27 Aug 08 - 10:54 AM (#2423345) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Bobert And... VOTE BOBERT FOR VP 'cause when it comes to vices... ...he is da' man!!! As fir the dough, yeah, any that Rap drops on the floor is mine... B;~) |
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27 Aug 08 - 11:04 AM (#2423364) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: john f weldon Ha! I don't like McCain, but I won't hold crashing against him. My Pa was a bombing instructor in WW2 and managed to blow up a local dance hall, while a dance was in progress. (Everyone survived) What this world needs is a less competent military! Bravo McCain, and keep those rifle bullets with the pointy part facing in! |
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27 Aug 08 - 11:23 AM (#2423377) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Donuel Rove should use this McCain ad George Bush inherited a bad economy from Bill Clinton, then 9-11 changed everything. Now McCain will be facing financial problems that might even include a crash. "Any crash you can walk away from is a good landing" McCain has walked away from 5 crash landings He is the man for the times. (show McCain in pilot uniform) |
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27 Aug 08 - 12:26 PM (#2423419) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Rapparee The motto of our library pistol shooting team is Spitzen zeigen Vorwärts but in fancy script. |
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27 Aug 08 - 01:08 PM (#2423466) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: CarolC I'm one of the people who don't think it's at all appropriate to attempt to "swift boat" McCain as a way of striking back for what was done to Kerry. As far as I'm concerned, what was done to Kerry has nothing whatever to do with McCain, and also, if it's wrong, it's wrong, no matter who it's done to. However, since McCain's entire campaign is about electing him president because of his record, in particular, his military record, I think that his record is fair game for scrutiny. Especially in light of the fact that he has been caught falsifying some of that record. Personally, I'd like to know if any or all of the accidents he had that involved vehicle malfunctions were or could have been the result of carelessness or hotdogging (or lack of competence). And I think it is entirely appropriate to examine McCain's record critically in light of what it shows us about the man. He was not a mediocre student, he was an abysmal student. He clearly wasn't considered a very good pilot (see what this article has to say about that), and he got where he is today through special treatment because of his father and grandfather. He uses his POW status as a way of trying to deflect any critical examination of his record, but that in itself ought to raise alarms in anyone who is concerned with electing a competent and honest person for president. We shouldn't allow his having been a POW cause us to blindly accept everything he says about himself. |
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27 Aug 08 - 01:13 PM (#2423472) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: olddude Last night McCain was on the Tonight Show, Jay asked him jokingly how many houses does he really own. He went into this disseration on when he was a prisoner for 5 years he didn't have a house etc etc etc ... I respect John McCain, I don't want him or any George Bush III as President. I have had a belly full of that thank you. But to ramble on and on especially on a comedy show was way beneath him. I was embaressed to witness it and it reeks of desperation. Not the McCain I saw from years past ... and way beneath the John McCain people knew as a Maverick. He caved to the system. God Speed Obama, God Speed |
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27 Aug 08 - 01:24 PM (#2423485) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: CarolC In the 1972 campaign, Nixon was hammering McGovern for being weak because of his stance on ending the war in Vietnam. McGovern was a decorated WWII combat veteran. When asked why he didn't use his military record as a way of defending those kinds of attacks against him, McGovern said he wouldn't do that because "it would be unseemly". |
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27 Aug 08 - 01:25 PM (#2423491) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: CarolC I need to correct that last one... In the 1972 campaign, Nixon was hammering McGovern for being weak because of his stance on ending the war in Vietnam. McGovern was a decorated WWII combat veteran. When asked why he didn't use his military record as a way of defending himself against those kinds of attacks against him, McGovern said he wouldn't do that because "it would be unseemly". |
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27 Aug 08 - 02:17 PM (#2423535) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: GUEST,frogprince, on Martha's Vineyard Joe said it all in a few words: "It wasn't right when they smeared Kerry's military record, and it's not right to do it to McCain." Two piles of filthy crap can never be boiled down to one gram of decency or integrity. |
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27 Aug 08 - 02:53 PM (#2423563) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Barry Finn I'm with Carole on McFly's military record. If we had voted on what wasn't known about Bush the flunky might never had gotten the job. He & McFly have way to much in common on their military fronts. Poor at whatever they put their hands to, fathers that could & did cover their asses with TP, records that they'd love to hide, both thought themselves hot shots, both flyers with no claim to fame. McFly does have one up on the Brush, it was a good thing he was sidelined for 5 yrs. With 5 wrecks in 20 hrs worth of flying time what damage he could have done in 5 yrs is likely to have cost the US the war, McFly wants to try again & win this one??? Don't let him fly take him out of the driver's seat, now. Barry |
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27 Aug 08 - 03:13 PM (#2423576) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash CARTOONS From: Donuel Senator how many planes have you crashed? I'll have my staff get back to you on that. Senator how many homes do you have? I'll have to get my staff to give you a call Senator do you suffer from staph infections? I'll have my staff get back to you. |
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27 Aug 08 - 05:01 PM (#2423686) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: CarolC There's a big difference between smearing and asking legitimate questions. I'm against smearing, but I think asking legitimate questions is our responsibility as voters. |
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28 Aug 08 - 03:49 AM (#2424074) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Joe Offer For heaven's sake, McCain's alleged "incident" took place in 1967, 40 years ago - when McCain was 31 years old. To use that as any sort of basis for judgment, is as absurd as using Kerry's 35-yr-old Vietnam record in 2004. Certainly, those admirable service records gave them an advantage in their careers and helped to place them in privileged positions, but what have they done with those advantages in the last ten or twenty years? Are you going to get all upset if they smoked marijuana forty years ago? Want to question their marriages and divorces? How is that pertinent to their ability to serve their country as President in 2009, such a long time later? -Joe- |
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28 Aug 08 - 12:29 PM (#2424439) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: CarolC I think that aptitude, intelligence, and competence (as well as character) are definitely things that we need to be concerned with. And we also ought to be aware, at least, of how McCain was able to do the things he did (preferential treatment, like Bush received, as opposed to his own abilities and efforts). Just as we were right to be concerned with Bush's history of that period in his life - his record as a student, the way he got the advantages he had, his lack of competence, etc.) Also, if a person's character is impulsive and they are a risk taker or a thrill seeker by nature, this is also something we would want to take into consideration when we decide who we want to be our next president. After all, he will have his finger on the nuclear button. His past history alone can't tell us that about him, but his past history combined with how he has lived his life since then can. |
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28 Aug 08 - 01:14 PM (#2424511) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: kendall Joe, if he is going to stand on his military record, he opens the door, and it is fair to question it. |
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29 Aug 08 - 01:44 PM (#2425650) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Stringsinger Do you want this man's finger on the nuclear button? |
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29 Aug 08 - 01:54 PM (#2425667) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Stringsinger I Spent Years as a POW with John McCain, and His Finger Should Not Be Near the Red Button By Phillip Butler, Military.com Posted on August 21, 2008, Printed on August 29, 2008 http://www.alternet.org/story/95825/ John McCain is a long-time acquaintance of mine that goes way back to our time together at the U.S. Naval Academy and as Prisoners of War in Vietnam. He is a man I respect and admire in some ways. But there are a number of reasons why I will not vote for him for President of the United States. When I was a Plebe (4th classman, or freshman) at the Naval Academy in 1957-58, I was assigned to the 17th Company for my four years there. In those days we had about 3,600 midshipmen spread among 24 companies, thus about 150 midshipmen to a company. As fortune would have it, John, a First Classman (senior) and his room mate lived directly across the hall from me and my two room mates. Believe me when I say that back then I would never in a million or more years have dreamed that the crazy guy across the hall would someday be a Senator and candidate for President! John was a wild man. He was funny, with a quick wit and he was intelligent. But he was intent on breaking every USNA regulation in our 4 inch thick USNA Regulations book. And I believe he must have come as close to his goal as any midshipman who ever attended the Academy. John had me "coming around" to his room frequently during my plebe year. And on one occasion he took me with him to escape "over the wall" in the dead of night. He had a taxi cab waiting for us that took us to a bar some 7 miles away. John had a few beers, but forbid me to drink (watching out for me I guess) and made me drink cokes. I could tell many other midshipman stories about John that year and he unbelievably managed to graduate though he spent the majority of his first class year on restriction for the stuff he did get caught doing. In fact he barely managed to graduate, standing 5th from the bottom of his 800 man graduating class. I and many others have speculated that the main reason he did graduate was because his father was an Admiral, and also his grandfather, both U.S. Naval Academy graduates. People often ask if I was a Prisoner of War with John McCain. My answer is always "No - John McCain was a POW with me." The reason is I was there for 8 years and John got there 2 1/2 years later, so he was a POW for 5 1/2 years. And we have our own seniority system, based on time as a POW. John's treatment as a POW: 1) Was he tortured for 5 years? No. He was subjected to torture and maltreatment during his first 2 years, from September of 1967 to September of 1969. After September of 1969 the Vietnamese stopped the torture and gave us increased food and rudimentary health care. Several hundred of us were captured much earlier. I got there April 20, 1965 so my bad treatment period lasted 4 1/2 years. President Ho Chi Minh died on September 9, 1969, and the new regime that replaced him and his policies was more pragmatic. They realized we were worth a lot as bargaining chips if we were alive. And they were right because eventually Americans gave up on the war and agreed to trade our POW's for their country. A damn good trade in my opinion! But my point here is that John allows the media to make him out to be THE hero POW, which he knows is absolutely not true, to further his political goals. 2) John was badly injured when he was shot down. Both arms were broken and he had other wounds from his ejection. Unfortunately this was often the case -- new POW's arriving with broken bones and serious combat injuries. Many died from their wounds. Medical care was non-existent to rudimentary. Relief from pain was almost never given and often the wounds were used as an available way to torture the POW. Because John's father was the Naval Commander in the Pacific theater, he was exploited with TV interviews while wounded. These film clips have now been widely seen. But it must be known that many POW's suffered similarly, not just John. And many were similarly exploited for political propaganda. 3) John was offered, and refused, "early release." Many of us were given this offer. It meant speaking out against your country and lying about your treatment to the press. You had to "admit" that the U.S. was criminal and that our treatment was "lenient and humane." So I, like numerous others, refused the offer. This was obviously something none of us could accept. Besides, we were bound by our service regulations, Geneva Conventions and loyalties to refuse early release until all the POW's were released, with the sick and wounded going first. 4) John was awarded a Silver Star and Purple Heart for heroism and wounds in combat. This heroism has been played up in the press and in his various political campaigns. But it should be known that there were approximately 600 military POW's in Vietnam. Among all of us, decorations awarded have recently been totaled to the following: Medals of Honor -- 8, Service Crosses -- 42, Silver Stars -- 590, Bronze Stars -- 958 and Purple Hearts -- 1,249. John certainly performed courageously and well. But it must be remembered that he was one hero among many -- not uniquely so as his campaigns would have people believe. John McCain served his time as a POW with great courage, loyalty and tenacity. More than 600 of us did the same. After our repatriation a census showed that 95% of us had been tortured at least once. The Vietnamese were quite democratic about it. There were many heroes in North Vietnam. I saw heroism every day there. And we motivated each other to endure and succeed far beyond what any of us thought we had in ourselves. Succeeding as a POW is a group sport, not an individual one. We all supported and encouraged each other to survive and succeed. John knows that. He was not an individual POW hero. He was a POW who surmounted the odds with the help of many comrades, as all of us did. I furthermore believe that having been a POW is no special qualification for being President of the United States. The two jobs are not the same, and POW experience is not, in my opinion, something I would look for in a presidential candidate. Most of us who survived that experience are now in our late 60's and 70's. Sadly, we have died and are dying off at a greater rate than our non-POW contemporaries. We experienced injuries and malnutrition that are coming home to roost. So I believe John's age (73) and survival expectation are not good for being elected to serve as our President for 4 or more years. I can verify that John has an infamous reputation for being a hot head. He has a quick and explosive temper that many have experienced first hand. Folks, quite honestly that is not the finger I want next to that red button. It is also disappointing to see him take on and support Bush's war in Iraq, even stating we might be there for another 100 years. For me John represents the entrenched and bankrupt policies of Washington-as-usual. The past 7 years have proven to be disastrous for our country. And I believe John's views on war, foreign policy, economics, environment, health care, education, national infrastructure and other important areas are much the same as those of the Bush administration. I'm disappointed to see John represent himself politically in ways that are not accurate. He is not a moderate Republican. On some issues he is a maverick. But his voting record is far to the right. I fear for his nominations to our Supreme Court, and the consequent continuing loss of individual freedoms, especially regarding moral and religious issues. John is not a religious person, but he has taken every opportunity to ally himself with some really obnoxious and crazy fundamentalist ministers lately. I was also disappointed to see him cozy up to Bush because I know he hates that man. He disingenuously and famously put his arm around the guy, even after Bush had intensely disrespected him with lies and slander. So on these and many other instances, I don't see that John is the "straight talk express" he markets himself to be. Senator John Sidney McCain, III is a remarkable man who has made enormous personal achievements. And he is a man that I am proud to call a fellow POW who "Returned With Honor." That's our POW motto. But since many of you keep asking what I think of him, I've decided to write it out. In short, I think John Sidney McCain, III is a good man, but not someone I will vote for in the upcoming election to be our President of the United States. Doctor Phillip Butler is a 1961 graduate of the United States Naval Academy and a former light-attack carrier pilot. In 1965 he was shot down over North Vietnam where he spent eight years as a prisoner of war. He is a highly decorated combat veteran who was awarded two Silver Stars, two Legion of Merits, two Bronze Stars and two Purple Heart medals. After his repatriation in 1973 he earned a Ph.D. in sociology from the University of California at San Diego and became a Navy Organizational Effectiveness consultant. He completed his Navy career in 1981 as a professor of management at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, California. He is now a peace and justice activist with Veterans for Peace. © 2008 Military.com All rights reserved. View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/story/95825/ |
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29 Aug 08 - 02:22 PM (#2425687) Subject: RE: BS: McCrash From: Stringsinger The incident on the Forrestal might be an urban legend. Then again, it might be another cover-up. G.W. Bush's drying out in San Diego when he was supposed to be campaining for Blount in Alabama is a case in point. You see what you got with Bush. You want the same with McCain? This "war hero" bombed innnocent civilians in Vietnam. |