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13 Sep 08 - 07:56 PM (#2439552) Subject: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk I've been noticing something odd for a few years now, and that is that intellectually-minded people on this forum are using the phrase "heaven forfend". Everybody was saying "heaven forbid" for the last few centuries of our English-speaking culture...certainly for most of my life...but just lately I see people saying "heaven forfend" instead. What the heck is that about? Do you think it sounds cooler or something to say "heaven forfend"? "Heaven forbid" is the normal expression. At first I thought "forfend" wasn't even a real word, so I did an online dictionary search. It turns out that forfend is a real word...an archaic one from the 14th century! Here is the online dictionary info: forfend One entry found. Main Entry: for·fend Pronunciation: \fȯr-ˈfend\ Function: transitive verb Date: 14th century 1 archaic : forbid b: to ward off : prevent 2: protect , preserve Okay, so it is a real word...but man does it ever sound pretentious! Sheesh. Why don't you just say "heaven forbid", like people have been doing for the last few hundred years? And who started this "heaven forfend" craze, anyway? Do you have to hold one pinkie up when you say it? Was it Woody Allen who repopularized the phrase? It sounds like something he might have come up with. |
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13 Sep 08 - 08:07 PM (#2439559) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Emma B It's one of those Brit things LH! - you know we're all a little archaic over here :) Em - drinking tea and eating cucumber sandwiches (crusts cut off - of course) whilst holding up her little finger :) |
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13 Sep 08 - 08:11 PM (#2439561) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: John on the Sunset Coast Forfend as meaning 'forbid' goes back to at least 1823 according to my Oxford Universal Dictionary; the general modern meaning is "to avert" or "ward off". It's nice to use old meanings once in awhile. |
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13 Sep 08 - 08:18 PM (#2439567) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk Ah. Perhaps it is the British who are responsible, Emma. Now that you mention it, I can definitely hear someone like Penelope Rutledge breathlessly saying "Heaven forfend!" It sounds so...patrician. I think the real reason people like using it is the alliteration...the two "f"'s in the word "forfend". It puts a little more of a flourish in their emphasis of just how much they don't want whatever it is that they are referring to. On the other hand, the word "forbid" sounds stronger to my ears than "forfend". Not quite as petulant, but definitely stronger. |
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13 Sep 08 - 08:21 PM (#2439573) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: GUEST,Peace "When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?" According to Mudcat time, at 7:56 PM. I gotta ask: what's a forf? |
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13 Sep 08 - 08:31 PM (#2439582) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: pdq "I gotta ask: what's a forf?" The sound a dog makes after trying to eat a Sugar Daddy. |
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13 Sep 08 - 08:40 PM (#2439589) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: John on the Sunset Coast a forf is something you use with a knike, for meals. |
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13 Sep 08 - 08:41 PM (#2439590) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Peace OK. So, that's the forf end, right? Damn, I love this place. Learn something new every time I read threads. |
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13 Sep 08 - 08:44 PM (#2439593) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk Dang. I wish my dog could read. Think how much he could learn here. |
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13 Sep 08 - 08:47 PM (#2439597) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: pdq He could learn all he is to know in just a forf night. |
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13 Sep 08 - 08:51 PM (#2439600) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Ebbie I don't know that I use 'forfend'. However, to me, it is stronger than 'forbid'. Forfend - to fend off- has more power than to merely forbid something. Nicht wahr? |
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13 Sep 08 - 09:02 PM (#2439610) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk You think so? Picture this: Border guard saying "That is forbidden!" Same border guard saying "That is forfenden!" Forbidden definitely sounds stronger to me. ;-) |
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13 Sep 08 - 09:04 PM (#2439613) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Amos THey are two different words altogether, and "forfend" has been around since the 15th century. It means to ward off, rather than to mandate against. Heaven forfending bad luck is providential, while Heaven forbidding something is more intercessory, like the patriarchal and interfering God icon of some sects is wont to do. A |
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13 Sep 08 - 09:07 PM (#2439614) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk Right. Therefore, "heaven forbid" is the way to go if you want definite results! ;-) |
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13 Sep 08 - 09:15 PM (#2439620) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Amos Well, I don't know -- does calling more sternly to imaginary playmates actually make them appear any more reliably? "Batman forbid!!!!!" A |
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13 Sep 08 - 09:22 PM (#2439625) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Emma B Desdemona Who's there? Othello? Othello Ay. Desdemona. Desdemona Will you come to bed, my lord? Othello Have you pray'd to-night, Desdemona? Desdemona Ay, my lord. Othello If you bethink yourself of any crime Unreconciled as yet to heaven and grace, Solicit for it straight. Desdemona Alas, my lord, what do you mean by that? Othello Well, do it, and be brief; I will walk by: I would not kill thy unprepared spirit; No; heaven forfend! I would not kill thy soul. If it's good enough for Shakespeare! :) |
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13 Sep 08 - 09:23 PM (#2439629) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Peace Shakespeare? Sheesh. A hack writer. His most famous play--'Hamlet'--is fulla quotes. Geeze . . . . |
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13 Sep 08 - 09:27 PM (#2439632) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Little Hawk- that is, If God is on your side. I have used forfend occasionally, picked it up here at Mudcat, forget from whom. Words like that are contagious! |
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13 Sep 08 - 09:36 PM (#2439636) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: pdq Yep, that Shakespeare guy's stuff sounds like one cliche after another. |
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13 Sep 08 - 09:39 PM (#2439640) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: JennieG Does anyone remember seeing "Rumpole of the Bailey"? 'Heaven forfend' was one of his favourite terms, and I wonder if it transmogrified from the TV to everyday vocabulary. Cheers JennieG who loves having fun with words |
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13 Sep 08 - 09:40 PM (#2439642) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Emma B 'The old joke goes something like this: A guys walks out of the theater after seeing Hamlet for the first time. "I don't know why everybody thinks Hamlet is such a well-written play," he says. "It is full of clichés." ' Well, here is a whole list of clichés, along with where they originated' A collection of 150 everyday expressions |
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13 Sep 08 - 09:48 PM (#2439649) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Emma B It didn't come from the writing of John Mortimer and his wonderful character Horace Rumpole (not forgetting She Who Must Be Obeyed) but from everyday usage over here Jennie - however it's often said with an air of resignation :) |
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13 Sep 08 - 11:46 PM (#2439721) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Barry Finn I'd rather use my "forend" than my "backside". Barry |
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14 Sep 08 - 12:03 AM (#2439733) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Peace I see you got the eff outta there, Barry. |
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14 Sep 08 - 12:05 AM (#2439736) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Gurney Pretentious, Moi? Heaven forfend, Liz! |
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14 Sep 08 - 12:19 AM (#2439746) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: katlaughing Looks as though the first instance of it on Mudcat was early on in 1999 by Vixen. You, yourself, LH, used it in ought two! **bg** Love word play, too! |
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14 Sep 08 - 12:36 AM (#2439761) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk Geez, Kat, I'd forgotten all about that deathless passage! How good to read it again. The "forfend" that I use in it was a deliberately concocted word with an entirely different purpose than when saying "heaven forfend". I meant it to mean "subsist" in that context. Matter of fact, I thought at the time that it was a completely made-up word that I had invented on the spot. I quote that glorious passage again: "Avaunt, wretches, knaves, and cutpurses!!! Ye quailing, gibbering, chuckleheaded scoundrels, ye should be cast into the pit of Hades, there to forfend on carrion and the leavings of Hell's demon urchins! Ye darkling imps, sons of perdition and ravagers of the innocent heath, may ye perish and succumb to the wrath of the valorous and true. May the wolves gnaw upon your codpieces! May pernicious vermin consume thy raiment from off thy poxy frames, exposing thee to the inclemency of the pitiless elements on some barren and nameless shore of disaster! Thou villainous, onion-eyed, barrel-bellied swine! Begone! And take thy vile humours with thee when thither thou goest!" God, I love that. Such a useful diatribe. One can just pull it out of the hat for use on so many occasions... I was really in a different mood back in '02. ;-) |
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14 Sep 08 - 12:48 AM (#2439766) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Peace Uh, LH, do you have anymore of that left? |
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14 Sep 08 - 12:55 AM (#2439768) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer still in the shop) Forf is after fird and before fiff. Perfectly good word, actually. The richness of the English language allows shades of meanings that many languages with smaller vocabularies do not (English, around 600,000 words, Romance languages around 150,000 each), without sometimes having to get awfully vebose. Heaven forfend that one should be forbidden the use of subtle distinctions. . . . Don Firth |
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14 Sep 08 - 01:17 AM (#2439775) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Backwoodsman "It's one of those Brit things LH! - you know we're all a little archaic over here :)" I'm a Brit, have been for 61 years. Never heard of the word 'forfend' until I saw this thread. It's definitely NOT a Brit thing, Emma, at least not in common usage here in the Backwoods! Sounds more like the kind of pretentious bollox that some overpaid Chelsea-dwelling barrister might come out with in order to discombooberate his pals whilst supping his champagne in a trendy wine-bar. :-) |
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14 Sep 08 - 01:35 AM (#2439778) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: meself Um, people - it's SUPPOSED to sound pretentious. It's what we in the trade call 'tongue-in-cheek' usage, or 'inflated language as humorous device', in the same vein as, "Surely you jest", "I kid(guff/shit) you not" , "Who goes there?", "Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put", "discombooberate" [sic], etc. |
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14 Sep 08 - 01:55 AM (#2439783) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Backwoodsman Um, meself - "discombooberate" was SUPPOSED to sound pretentious. It's not just you in the trade that have a sense of the humorously ridiculous. Or should 'that' be 'who'? Or 'whom'? :-) :-) |
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14 Sep 08 - 02:13 AM (#2439787) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: meself ""discombooberate" was SUPPOSED to sound pretentious." Um, yes I know - that's why I included 'discombooberate' in the list of examples of 'tongue-in-cheek ... ' etc. (grumble, grumble) |
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14 Sep 08 - 02:42 AM (#2439795) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Amos LH: Before you get too carried away with your own eloquence, may I point out that you used the word entirely incorrectly? Forfend does not mean 'to survive on'. Or anything even close thereunto. A |
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14 Sep 08 - 02:57 AM (#2439798) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: JohnInKansas In usage that I've heard/seen, there is a significant difference in the two words. To forbid means merely to say "don't do it." To forfend means to prevent it from being done. To use LH's previous "situation:" Border guard saying "That is forbidden!" Same border guard John |
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14 Sep 08 - 03:56 AM (#2439815) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Sandra in Sydney where would I be without Mudcat - a new (old) word! sandra (who doesn't recall reading it before this thread) |
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14 Sep 08 - 05:55 AM (#2439842) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: catspaw49 Forfend fornication! Forbid foolish fuckery! Just tryin' to help out Hawk with the alliteration thing........... Spaw |
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14 Sep 08 - 11:32 AM (#2439994) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: dick greenhaus I've used the phrase "Heaven forfend!" since the middle 1940's. Got it from Shakespeare. Another somewhat archaic construction I've been fond of is "idiotry"--somehow it seems more emphatic than idiocy. BTW, Discombooberate" seems to be a corruption of the earlier "discombobulate". Anyone familiar with the word's background? |
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14 Sep 08 - 12:38 PM (#2440045) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: pdq I think "discombooberate" is the female version and "discombobulate" is male. |
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14 Sep 08 - 01:08 PM (#2440069) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Jim Dixon "Pericles, Prince of Tyre" (in part) by William Shakespeare, 1619:
I thank thee for it; and heaven forbid That kings should let their ears hear their faults hid!
O'erthrow me, as the Fidler did;….
And when thou fail'st (as God forbid the Hour) Must Edward fall, which peril Heaven forfend.
That thou my prentise were: Thou wouldst spend more good than I should winne By fortye shilling a yere.
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14 Sep 08 - 01:28 PM (#2440086) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Backwoodsman "Discombobulate" seems to be a Southern-Puffter-Wine-Bar-Hanger corruption of the old Lincolnshire (specifically, Gainsborough on the Lincolnshire/North Notts border) dialect word 'Discombooberate', meaning "to baffle one's audience by speaking utter bollocks in a manner intended to convey the said bollocks as an absolute, undeniable truth". |
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14 Sep 08 - 02:34 PM (#2440144) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk Backwoodsman got if perfectly when he said of "heaven forfend" that it "Sounds more like the kind of pretentious bollox that some overpaid Chelsea-dwelling barrister might come out with in order to discombooberate his pals whilst supping his champagne in a trendy wine-bar." Heh! That's exactly how I see it. Now, if the poster is deliberately trying to sound pretentious as a form of humour, well then, that's okay. It's people who use the expression unconsciously, not aware of how phony and pretentious it sounds, those are the people who trouble me. I think they should drop it and say "heaven forbid" instead. "Heaven forbid" has an honest, straightforward, Republican sound to it. Clint Eastwood or John McCain would NEVER say "heaven forfend!", they would say "heaven forbid!" Only wimps, pansies, and gormless liberal wusses who are completely beyond redemption use expressions like "heaven forfend!" Amos - One cannot use a completely fictional word that one has made up on the spot "incorrectly". I was not aware that "forfend" was even a real word when I used it in the deathless quote you allude to. I thought I had made up a brand new word when I said "forfend". As such, I can use a brand new word or what I think is a brand new word any way I want to, nicht wahr? If I had thought it was a real word, THEN I would have been using it incorrectly. Do you get the distinction? ;-) |
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14 Sep 08 - 02:45 PM (#2440157) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: pdq "gormless liberal" Meaning that they lack axle grease? Or, if you are in Boonville, California, it means they have no food. |
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14 Sep 08 - 02:48 PM (#2440163) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Amos Your defense is your confession, sir. A |
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14 Sep 08 - 02:59 PM (#2440171) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Emma B Horace Rumpole only ever drank Château Thames Embankment - although possibly Champagne if someone else was paying :) |
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14 Sep 08 - 03:02 PM (#2440175) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk Amos... Your accusation is your nullification, sir. ;-) Therefore redactify your aberrant position and recant, I say. Either disconcagenate floridiously or depart this discussion. |
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14 Sep 08 - 03:54 PM (#2440215) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Megan L Little Hawk ya peedie scunner, yer naethin but a nyaff an will be pitit ower ma knees an skelp yer bahookie till yer lugs ring. Forfend his bin used in guid Scots talk since ever a kin mind oan an a wis telt a wis at the battle o bannockburn so haud yer wheesht ya glaikit gowk an behave yersel |
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14 Sep 08 - 04:02 PM (#2440220) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk Christ. Beats me how you people can even understand each other, Megan. It sounds like you've got a wee Scottish terrier stuffed in your mouth and are trying to speak at the same time! Depiculate and be done with it, woman! Don't blather. I can't stand tandependentious blathertwaddle. |
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14 Sep 08 - 04:11 PM (#2440227) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Megan L Learn to speak properly dear boy. |
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14 Sep 08 - 05:45 PM (#2440327) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Amos You sound a tad desperate there, Hawk-me-lad. P'raps you should stick to your grade level. A |
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14 Sep 08 - 05:47 PM (#2440334) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk My "grade level", sir? And what would that be, pray tell? |
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14 Sep 08 - 06:26 PM (#2440366) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Amos 7.5, at a quick guess. A |
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14 Sep 08 - 07:04 PM (#2440394) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk Out of? |
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14 Sep 08 - 07:09 PM (#2440399) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Donuel In short... blipsnort |
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14 Sep 08 - 07:12 PM (#2440400) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk Megan...the real truth is that I am almost struck dumb with admiration for your extraordinary mastery of Scots dialect. Almost. At any rate...I desperately want to be able to talk like that myself, specially in moments of passion. I have reasons which I cannot divulge for this concern...but let me ask you this: What should I say to a Scottish gel when I am engaged in, well...you know...with her...and things are getting really heated up? What would be the perfect series of remarks to make at a time like that, using broad Scots dialect? |
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14 Sep 08 - 07:56 PM (#2440439) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Well, I finally decided to look in the OED, and forfend is used in several quotations from the 1380s. Forbid is quoted from 1175, so it seems to have priority. So forbear! |
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14 Sep 08 - 08:03 PM (#2440445) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: pdq So forbear! Well, there go a whole bunch of pickanick baskets. |
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14 Sep 08 - 08:31 PM (#2440463) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Nigel Parsons |
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14 Sep 08 - 08:37 PM (#2440466) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Nigel Parsons Sorry for the balk post! Little Hawk says: "Backwoodsman got if perfectly when he said of "heaven forfend" that it "Sounds more like the kind of pretentious bollox that some overpaid Chelsea-dwelling barrister might come out with in order to discombooberate his pals whilst supping his champagne in a trendy wine-bar." Heh! That's exactly how I see it." The fact that you don't recognise a word that is valid english useage doesn't make it improper. We (the British) seem to have problems with other countries using our language and trying to bend it to their preferences. As has been mentioned above, the english language has a (perhaps unparalleled) vocabulary, with slight nuances to each word. To decide that one particular word should no longer be used (in favour of another) impoverishes our language. PS I accept that Lisa in "The Simpsons" has added 'Embiggens' to the language. (though I don't like it) |
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14 Sep 08 - 08:45 PM (#2440471) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk Ah...Nigel...if you only realized how deadly serious I am about all this...how I lie awake at night wondering how I can get the word "forfend" banned from the English language...how I yearn for the simple days when people at nothing but corn bread and bacon and limited their discourse to 150 common words and phrases... If only! ;-D I will not REST until you are all compelled to do it MY way, d'you hear me! I am on a crusade here, one that can end only in death or total victory. (there's a little of George Bush in all of us...) |
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14 Sep 08 - 11:10 PM (#2440559) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: dick greenhaus Language, in case anyone hasn't noticed, can be fun.And we don' need no steatocephalic critics who object to correct, if unusual usage. |
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14 Sep 08 - 11:55 PM (#2440586) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk Oh, yes we do! ("Isn't this the room for arguments? I came here for an argument!") |
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15 Sep 08 - 04:18 AM (#2440659) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Backwoodsman This is not an argument - it's simply two participants each gainsaying the other! |
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15 Sep 08 - 06:11 AM (#2440717) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Mrs.Duck Well this is where I have to admit that I had never seen or heard the phrase 'heaven forfend' until reading this thread today. Dead educational 'ere innit! |
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15 Sep 08 - 10:47 AM (#2440979) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: GUEST,leeneia My mother, an American born in Pittsburgh in 1918 and raised in various places in the Midwest, often said 'Saints forfend!' As in: 'Elvis Presley might be the main star at the Youth Festival.' 'Saints forfend!' Heaven knows where she picked it up, but 'forfend' has been around for quite a while. |
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15 Sep 08 - 01:04 PM (#2441125) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk I had never seen the expression "heaven forfend" either Mrs Duck, until a few years ago on this forum. That's what makes me think it is some kind of trendy catch phrase that has caught on just lately amongst the psuedo-intellectual Starbucks crowd who like to flummox other people and impress one another with their supposed verbal sophistication. |
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15 Sep 08 - 01:43 PM (#2441146) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Forsooth! 'Tis time to forswear use of this thread, it is forspent, further posts must pay a forfeit. All of the 'for-' words are in the Webster's Collegiate Dictionary. Anyone with the slightest reading knowledge of English should be aware of them. Harrumpf! |
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16 Sep 08 - 01:53 AM (#2441798) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Gurney I've only seen it used in books,- You wouldn't hear it much in a factory,- but I have been aware of it since my teens. Which were a while ago. If it's good enough for Bill Shakespeare and in Percy's 'Relics...' then it is good enough for anyone. When did shops become 'outlet stores?' When did spectacles become 'eyeglasses?' When did mean stop meaning mean and mean nasty?' And who put the bop in the bop, shebop, shebop. |
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16 Sep 08 - 02:54 AM (#2441808) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk Bill Haley? |
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16 Sep 08 - 10:30 AM (#2442028) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Bryn Pugh No, forsooth - did he not put the ram in the ramalamadingdong ? |
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16 Sep 08 - 12:00 PM (#2442123) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: dick greenhaus Lollygagging lackwits often fail to notice that an unusual word can lend emphasis o an otherwise dull and unconvincing narrative. |
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16 Sep 08 - 12:10 PM (#2442135) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk Yes, and the same is true of maundering pissyfants who strut around waving perfumed hankies in the air and portentiously braying "Mark my words!" |
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16 Sep 08 - 12:34 PM (#2442165) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Emma B Hey you gorbellied folly-fallen giglet guys here's some more ammo for you :) |
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16 Sep 08 - 01:14 PM (#2442213) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Backwoodsman Didn't he also put the dip in the dip-de-dep-de-dip? Who was that man? I'd like to shake his hand - he made my baby fall in love with me. Why it was Barry Mann with The Halos. A-wop-bop-a-loo-mop-a-lop-bam-boom. |
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16 Sep 08 - 01:37 PM (#2442240) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: pdq It's up to fivefend now. Inflation, you know. |
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16 Sep 08 - 05:42 PM (#2442486) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: GUEST,leeneia Good one, pdq. |
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16 Sep 08 - 05:59 PM (#2442499) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Amos Little HAwk: Disperse, and foreswear this obsession with the rationalization of your own ignorance. That you have learned an ancient word is a virtue; but ypur protesting it without grounds or merit turns it to a grave sin, full of hubris, and a braying demand for justification of know-nothingery. Giver o'er, sir, ere you damn yourself roundly with your own protestations! A |
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16 Sep 08 - 06:10 PM (#2442512) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk Say that to me in Scots dialect and I'll give it some serious consideration, Amos. |
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16 Sep 08 - 06:26 PM (#2442526) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Now to start on all the fore's- |
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16 Sep 08 - 06:26 PM (#2442527) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: dick greenhaus Archaicisms are something like cussing--they're only effective if used very sparingly. |
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16 Sep 08 - 06:28 PM (#2442532) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Emma B In the Geordie dialect I think 'whist lad haed ya gob' would do it LH :) |
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16 Sep 08 - 07:32 PM (#2442591) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Nigel Parsons Emma B: 'whist lad haed ya gob' Trying to get this promoted 'above the line' by quoting the first line of the chorus of the Lambton Worm? |
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16 Sep 08 - 07:50 PM (#2442608) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Emma B Heavens forfend Nigel! ooops I think this is where we came in :) |
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16 Sep 08 - 09:35 PM (#2442660) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Gurney Bryn Pugh speaks of putting the ram in the rammalamber... and Backwoodsman of putting the dip in the dipsheepdipsheepdip.. Is this thread creeping into animal husbandry? And that term itself could lead to misunderstanding in an non-agrarian society. |
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17 Sep 08 - 02:28 AM (#2442787) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Dave Hanson Forfend ? it's Sarf Queensferry, end of the Forf Bridge. eric |
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17 Sep 08 - 02:58 AM (#2442797) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Backwoodsman GURNEY! Behave! |
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17 Sep 08 - 06:26 AM (#2442897) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: pdq "Is this thread creeping into animal husbandry? " As Tom Lehrer said; "he majored in animal husbandry...until somebody caught him at it" |
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17 Sep 08 - 08:40 AM (#2442971) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Morticia Well heaven forfend is an expression I have used for years and probably more than once on here. Problem is, I always say it in an arch tone of voice and matching facial expression so people know I am using it to take the piss. If only we could translate them things to here |
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17 Sep 08 - 08:43 AM (#2442976) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: rumanci Yes Morti. I'm guilty as charged with the same reasoning as you. Do ya think it's OUR fault and HOW did LH never notice ? LOL |
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17 Sep 08 - 10:22 AM (#2443049) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Amos LH: Whist, lad! Haed ya gob!There ya go! A |
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17 Sep 08 - 12:01 PM (#2443121) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Rusty Dobro 'Forfend' is obviously a distant cousin to 'forbid'. I'm having some difficulty with my fors' kin. I'll get me coat..... |
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17 Sep 08 - 12:19 PM (#2443130) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: George Papavgeris Forfend is the last stage in the act of sex: It comes after fore-court and fore-play (fors'kin can be also involved here, Dobro). Sometimes it is also preceded by forced entry, but this is generally frowned upon. |
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17 Sep 08 - 12:21 PM (#2443131) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: George Papavgeris Whereas forbid is what you do before sex - if the bid is accepted, you may proceed. |
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17 Sep 08 - 12:32 PM (#2443138) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: rumanci This version seems stable enough at its end |
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17 Sep 08 - 12:56 PM (#2443162) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk I am now suitably chastized, Amos, and shall slink off to the shadows... ;-) |
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18 Sep 08 - 01:55 AM (#2443749) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Gurney 4 |
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18 Sep 08 - 01:56 AM (#2443750) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Gurney 3 |
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18 Sep 08 - 01:56 AM (#2443752) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Gurney 2 |
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18 Sep 08 - 01:57 AM (#2443754) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Gurney 1 |
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18 Sep 08 - 02:12 AM (#2443764) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk 100? |
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26 Dec 08 - 02:31 AM (#2524799) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Little Hawk The fact is, Ah've nae had ma lugs rung in ower a year. Tae ca' me a nyaff an' a glaikit gowk is nae way tae speak tae a braw laddie wha wis at the Battle o' Bannockburn hisel, an' Stirling Bridge too. Ye shuid be ashamed tae sae sich things. As fer ma bahookie, dinna mess wi' that! |
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26 Dec 08 - 04:24 AM (#2524819) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Megan L ROFL Aye lad ye may be bonny and ye may be bricht but even Giok McKenzie is no that auld |
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26 Dec 08 - 04:51 AM (#2524823) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Backwoodsman OH YES HE IS....................(well, it's the panto season, isn't it?) :-) :-) |
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26 Dec 08 - 05:00 AM (#2524828) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Nigel Parsons We have had numerous postings showing that 'for' or 'fore' mean 'to the front'. In American usage, surely the fact that cars do not have 'bumpers' then they have a 'forefender' and a 'rearfender'. These (as they might say in the Southern states) are De fenders! 'Fore' is also a very useful word for getting a lot of meaning into a single word, it means 'I've just hit a golf ball and anyone in front of me (to the fore) should be alert' Lovely language this, innit? |
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26 Dec 08 - 12:45 PM (#2524987) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: GUEST,leeneia English has at least three fors. 1. the preposition, as in 'This is for you.' My dictionary has a column and a half of definitions for this supposedly simple word. 2. The prefix fore-, which Nigel is talking about. It usually means ahead of, or in front of. 3. The prefix for-, which only cultivated and suave speakers such as Mudcatters are aware of. It is rather archaic. For- tends to ascribe something bad to the verb. It is prohibited or overdone. For example, consider the difference between 'bid' and 'forbid.' It is akin to the German prefix, 'ver-,' which means about the same thing. ========== Trouble is, the -fend part of forfend doesn't make much sense. To forfend is to avert or prevent, which is why my mother would exclaim 'Saints forfend!' How that meaning came about, I do not know. Nigel, I agree with you that English is a lovely language. |
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26 Dec 08 - 07:11 PM (#2525208) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: artbrooks Is the drink you have before having a beer a forebitter? |
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27 Dec 08 - 09:12 AM (#2525456) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: kendall The first time I ever heard that expression was Joan Sprung in the mid 70s. I have always been a fan of Bill Shakespere, and at one point in my checkered youth I was going to write a biography of him, but, as he once said, "And enterprises of great pith and moment become sicklyed over with the pale cast of thought, and lose the name of action." |
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27 Dec 08 - 01:34 PM (#2525639) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: GUEST,leeneia Yes, Art. A precursor to a beer is a forebitter. However, when the Prince of Denmark tried to institute prohibition, he forbittered the pubs. See the difference? |
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27 Dec 08 - 08:55 PM (#2525836) Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'? From: Gurney Leeneia, I've always supposed, without a shadow of evidence, that the -fend part is from the same root as the fend in nautical terms, as 'to fend off,' physically prevent from colliding, or 'to fend for yourself.' |
