BS: Obama is a socialist

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BS: Obama is a socialist

13 Oct 08 - 10:58 PM (#2464945)
Subject: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

http://www.aim.org/aim-column/obamas-international-socialist-connections/

Obama's socialist backing goes back at least to 1996, when he received the endorsement of the Chicago branch of the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) for an Illinois state senate seat. Later, the Chicago DSA newsletter reported that Obama, as a state senator, showed up to eulogize Saul Mendelson, one of the "champions" of "Chicago's democratic left" and a long-time socialist activist. Obama's stint as a "community organizer" in Chicago has gotten some attention, but his relationship with the DSA socialists, who groomed and backed him, has been generally ignored.

13 Oct 08 - 11:10 PM (#2464951)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: TIA

Nothing is more socialist than the bail-out cooked up by the Republican Administration. Privatize the profits, socialize the loss. And please, let's nationalize the insurance industry by buying AIG. Oh yeah, please protect us from socialism. Thanks a lot asshat.

13 Oct 08 - 11:35 PM (#2464964)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks

Obama is a socialist? Sorry, not so. And, by most hyper-left standards, neither are the Democratic Socialists of America.

13 Oct 08 - 11:41 PM (#2464967)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Like I said on another thread, if Obama was a socialist, he would have the approval of the socialists here in the Mudcat. He does not have their support. One of them is even supporting Palin, so I guess that makes her a socialist.

The Republicans really have become a bunch of socialists. They practice corporate socialism, which has been described above - privatize the profits and socialize the risk/loss. The Republicans have turned the United States of America into the ultimate nanny/welfare state.

13 Oct 08 - 11:45 PM (#2464969)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: dick greenhaus

I guess if he was endorsed by the UAW he'd be an auto worker. Or if NOW endorsed him, he'd be a woman.

13 Oct 08 - 11:47 PM (#2464972)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

And passed by the Democratic majority in congress, after tacking on $150B in pork.

Yeah, it was the Republican minority that overpowered the mighty and righteous Democrats.

13 Oct 08 - 11:52 PM (#2464973)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Skivee

Hmmm. Does that make Sen. MacCain an anti-socialist? Just wondering.

13 Oct 08 - 11:55 PM (#2464974)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Bernard Sanders, independent of Vermont, who is regarded as the Senate's resident socialist.

Video of Obama campaigning for Sanders

One socialist helps another to gain power.

14 Oct 08 - 12:34 AM (#2464983)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

9 Members of the Communist Party USA explain their support for Obama

14 Oct 08 - 01:13 AM (#2465005)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

From: Skivee
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 11:52 PM

Hmmm. Does that make Sen. McCain an anti-socialist? Just wondering.

Not at all, just the right wing of the socialist party. They are working toward the same thing....isn't that obvious?

14 Oct 08 - 01:34 AM (#2465009)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: alanabit

In America, if you can make a charge of "Liberalism" or "Socialism" stick, you have proved that your opponent builds Gulag camps, beats his wife and eats cute kittens in pies... The rest of us, of course, recognise this political sophistication as a beacon to world democracy...

14 Oct 08 - 01:50 AM (#2465014)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Peace

Obama is the next President of the USA, socialist or not.

14 Oct 08 - 01:53 AM (#2465016)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Richard Bridge

Would that it were so.

14 Oct 08 - 02:04 AM (#2465019)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Then of course, there is...'If you lose your freedom and liberty, then what do you have left?'

14 Oct 08 - 02:18 AM (#2465021)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Peace

Debt.

14 Oct 08 - 02:25 AM (#2465022)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Buzzzzzz...wrong

14 Oct 08 - 02:34 AM (#2465025)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: freda underhill

Americans lost their freedom and liberty when their Supreme Court appointed George Bush President over Al Gore. In a democracy, people vote for their President.

Obama is no more a socialist than Scary Palin is a barracuda.

All this flying dirt is symptomatic of panic. now is not the time to panic, the time to panic was when George Bush came to power. and look, he's plundered the American economy and triggered a global financial meltdown.

anyone who supports the Republicans in these circumstances is acting against their own interests.

14 Oct 08 - 03:05 AM (#2465033)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Freda, what are you smoking?????

14 Oct 08 - 03:24 AM (#2465040)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: akenaton

Sorry posted this on another thread by mistake..A

I agree with Carol and Freda, if Mr Obama was a Socialist, or anything resembling a Socialist, his candidature would never have been endorsed by the Democrats. Just look at how the semi-Socialists like Mr Nader or Mr Kuninich are discriminated against in this wonderful "democracy"

Mr Obama will have been well vetted before his adoption as Dem presidential candidate to ensure that he won't rock the corporate boat.
The fact that he is "black" and talks in euphemisms were handy tools to fool the American public into thinking that he represents "change"

Neither of our countries will achieve change without the participation of the ordinary people directly ....call it a "popular movement" call it "revolution"...it does not matter, but the enforced nationalising of the banking system has crossed a very important bridge for the left.
If ever we had the chance to take our future into our own hands this is the time.
If only Mrs Palin's energy and conviction could be harnessed to left wing ideals, we would be on a rollercoaster ride to to change, independence and the real freedom that we all want.

One thing is certain, from the hands of an intellectual, mealy mouthed,corporate lawyer, change will never be delivered....Ake

14 Oct 08 - 03:43 AM (#2465049)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: theleveller

What's wrong with being a socialist? I'm a socialist. The opposite of socialism is fascism. So, as Billy Bragg says: 'Which Side Are You On?'

14 Oct 08 - 04:20 AM (#2465065)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

I'm Clear

14 Oct 08 - 04:31 AM (#2465073)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Paul Burke

Obama is a socialist, McCain is a pedobaptist, Plain (stet) is an anthropophagist, Biden scratches his belly with his big-toe nail.

I just love sophisticated political discussion.

14 Oct 08 - 04:40 AM (#2465079)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: theleveller

"Plain (stet) is an anthropophagist"

You mean she eats people pie?

14 Oct 08 - 05:09 AM (#2465090)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Peace

It was a one-eyed one-horned flying purple people eater . . . .

14 Oct 08 - 05:19 AM (#2465091)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Peace

Obama socialist? Good lord. Next we'll find out the Pope is Muslim.

14 Oct 08 - 05:21 AM (#2465092)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Emma B

Is this the 6th Joke thread of 2008 thread?

14 Oct 08 - 05:22 AM (#2465094)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: freda underhill

:-D

14 Oct 08 - 05:53 AM (#2465105)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Deckman

You say "socialist" like it's a BAD THING?

14 Oct 08 - 06:00 AM (#2465107)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Richard Bridge

Lawyers can bring revolutions: Ghandi did.

14 Oct 08 - 06:52 AM (#2465125)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Stu

It'd be good if he was, but I suspect he's too right-wing, and somewhere along the line buddied up to a religious nut.

14 Oct 08 - 07:56 AM (#2465150)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

Sawz:

Ya gotta get your meds tricked up, man.

A

14 Oct 08 - 08:23 AM (#2465164)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Ruth Archer

It kills me that in America, "socialist" is still a dirty word. Twas ever thus when I was a member of the DSA some 20 years ago. As someone has said, they are hardly an uber-left party; just very left by American standards. They believed in free higher education, a nationalised healthcare system and the welfare state. To me, it was about the kind of caring, supportive political system that put its people before the interests of the wealthy and big business.

If this is what Obama stands for, bring him on.

14 Oct 08 - 08:40 AM (#2465178)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Volgadon

I only wish he were. Sadly, I don't get the impression that he sticks to convictions much.

14 Oct 08 - 09:02 AM (#2465197)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Charley Noble

Sawl-

Are you sure Obama isn't really a Trotskyite? I mean, can't you come up with anything more scary than a candidate receiving a state senate endorsement by Chicago Democratic Socialists, all six of them!

I also understand that Obama doesn't eat his vegetables, or doesn't chew 'em properly if he does. What about that?

Charley Noble

14 Oct 08 - 09:15 AM (#2465205)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: irishenglish

Nice try Sawzaw. You think throwing out a buzzword that, as Ruth said above, most people think actually means something, with 21 days left is going to change anything? Get over it. Last I checked, America was a democracy, so if communists, animists, marijuana party, green party, atheists, or whoever else wants to vote for Obama, or whoever else for that matter, then it is their right to do so. Did you just work this out after despite Obama's campaigning for the last 20 months, or did someone put a flyer in your mailbox telling you this? You going to inform us that Obama and Bin Laden are connected too? Give me a break.

14 Oct 08 - 09:20 AM (#2465208)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

I just noticed the response to my previous post in this thread -

As has been noted by another poster a couple of posts before mine, it was the Republican, Bush administration that said if our Congress didn't pass the bill, the country would be totally destroyed forever. While I'm not happy with the fact that the Democrats allowed themselves to be snowed by this rhetoric from Bush, the bailout is, nevertheless, a Republican initiative, and the votes on the bill in the Senate did not split along party lines (and my Democratic representative voted against it).

The Republicans have turned the United States of America into the ultimate nanny/welfare state.

14 Oct 08 - 09:51 AM (#2465234)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Rapparee

Get over yourselves. The US is not now, and never was, a democracy. It's a republic, and if you don't know the difference you should go find out. Britain is a constitutional monarchy. The closest things to a true democracy that I know of are Iceland and Ireland -- and in both money talks.

14 Oct 08 - 10:12 AM (#2465259)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

There is a dirty rumor that he is also a Cubs fan

14 Oct 08 - 11:05 AM (#2465310)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bill D

dang... he hasn't been called a gay, vegan, dyslexic pedophile...yet.

But there's still several weeks to go.

14 Oct 08 - 11:09 AM (#2465317)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Donuel

He is supposed to be a n word, terrorist, elitist and enemy of anyone with over 5 million dollars. A socialist is a step up as far as absurd accusations go.

14 Oct 08 - 11:13 AM (#2465323)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Wesley S

Socialist = anyone not a card carrying Republican.....

14 Oct 08 - 11:48 AM (#2465359)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: kendall

I made a donation to the fund to save the statues in Egypt that were going to be covered by the Nile back in the 60s. Does that make me a Pharoist?

I see socialism as the normal state of affairs. It makes no sense to have 10% of the population controlling 90% of the wealth.
Socialism is coming to America, and the greed and corruption of Wall st. with the help of the thieves in Washington have helped to make that happen.

14 Oct 08 - 11:49 AM (#2465361)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Neil D

I remember when Ronald Reagan was endorsed by the KKK. Their Grand Wizard, or whatever inane title their sheet-wearing leader goes by, said it was almost like he let them write his platform.

14 Oct 08 - 12:09 PM (#2465381)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: katlaughing

Here's a look at the real Enemies of the State, imo. Thank goodness they are a minority and old-fashioned conservative Republicans have finally understood how they have given their party away to the right wing nuts and are ready to take it back.

I am proud to also note that someone did what I wanted to do..they painted over a disgusting sign someone had put up in our community. It had a picture of Obama on it with the following: "Will our people really vote for a Socialist?" I have also seen bumper stickers like THIS. (Scroll down.) THIS ONE is even more despicable.

14 Oct 08 - 12:16 PM (#2465389)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: jeffp

You'd better be carefull, Kendall. Somebody might realize that you just confessed to donating money to Abu Simbel and you'd be spirited away in the dead of night.

14 Oct 08 - 12:23 PM (#2465394)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: PoppaGator

"There is a dirty rumor that he is also a Cubs fan..."

Barack Obama is actually a diehard Chicago White Sox fan, a true regular-guy South Sider.

14 Oct 08 - 12:27 PM (#2465402)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: George Papavgeris

So "socialist" is synonymous with "communist", and no doubt has links to "anarchist" and probably also with "muslim", "vegan" and "soccer-lover".

That's what happens when perfectly good English words migrate. They lose their meaning and acquire new and inexplicable connotations.

You might as well say that Obama discombobulates. You'd make the same amount of sense.

14 Oct 08 - 12:30 PM (#2465404)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: George Papavgeris

"Barack Obama is actually a diehard Chicago White Sox fan, a true regular-guy South Sider."

Careful, PoppaGator, someone is bound to equate "South Sider" with unorthodox tendencies, and where would that leave the good Senator? Palin would have a field day.

14 Oct 08 - 12:30 PM (#2465405)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

"Barack Obama is actually a diehard Chicago White Sox fan, a true regular-guy South Sider. "

Sure, that is what the liberal media would like you to believe!!!

14 Oct 08 - 12:33 PM (#2465409)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,stigweard lost cookie

""soccer-lover"

George, it's football please: it's only called soccer in countries where they insist on calling another game football (inexplicably, not played with the feet).

Right. I'm off to see Tony Benn at Buxton.
stigWeard

14 Oct 08 - 01:33 PM (#2465466)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert

Heck, I'm 100 times more a socialist than Obama so at the rate he's going he ain't gonna even achieve beginner's status by the time he's finished his second term... But maybe a few lessons from George Bush wouild help...

B~

14 Oct 08 - 01:51 PM (#2465476)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Peace

Any teachings from Bush would entail Obama having a lobotomy before the lesson, else he wouldn't understand.

14 Oct 08 - 01:54 PM (#2465479)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Little Hawk

If he was a socialist, all the more reason to vote for him. ;-)

14 Oct 08 - 02:53 PM (#2465552)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bill D

"You might as well say that Obama discombobulates"

shhhh...I have heard he engages in public gesticulation!

14 Oct 08 - 02:55 PM (#2465554)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

Yeah, well, Sarah Palin was defenstrated at an early age by a male family member.

SHe was just lucky they lived in a single-level ranchhouse at the time and her bedroom was in the back out of public view, down close to the ground.

A

14 Oct 08 - 02:59 PM (#2465558)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bill D

Good thing there were no loose moose outside at the time!

14 Oct 08 - 03:22 PM (#2465583)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Little Hawk

Canadians have been praying for years that a socialist would get elected to the US presidency and finally straighten out that mess down there and provide Americans with a decent health insurance system.

Perhaps our prayers are about to be answered! ;-D

14 Oct 08 - 04:02 PM (#2465620)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: akenaton

So.."double entendres" are OK as long as its not homosexuals or blacks?
Attractive women with a bit of power are fair game?
You're a sad lot.
Why don't you confine yourselves to sneering at her spelling mistakes
or lack of academic qualifications.

Some of the wisest old folks I knew were completely uneducated

14 Oct 08 - 04:19 PM (#2465629)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bill D

?? which double entendres? I am reading back and fail to see your referent.

With even conservative journalists writing columns about Palin's flaws and mistakes, I don't feel like we are saying too much.

"Some of the wisest old folks I knew were completely uneducated"

and some of the dumbest. There are wise and hopelessly stupid ones at all levels.

14 Oct 08 - 04:55 PM (#2465642)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Peace

I wanted to notify y'all that I voted today for the Marijuana Party--so put THAT in your pipe and smoke it.

Actually, I voted for the Green Party. They ain't gonna win, but for a moment there I helped keep the dream alive.

14 Oct 08 - 05:09 PM (#2465652)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks

I was listening to NPR earlier today - ok, so half of you guys think NPR is part of the vast left-wing conspiracy and the other half consider it to be part of the Rupert Murdoch-controlled Main Stream Media...and then there is the 1/2 of one percent who consider the vast left-wing conspiracy and the MSM to be the same thing, but they are really wierd...anyway, they were discussing the factoid that both Senator Obama and Senator McCain list For Whom the Bell Tolls as a favorite book, and consider Hemingway's protagonist to be a personal hero.

For those who haven't read it, or who have forgotten 7th grade Lit, he died fighting in Spain against the Fascists in the late 1930s. For decades, anyone who fought on the Republican side in the Spanish Civil War was almost automatically considered a Commie Pinko Abraham Lincoln Brigade member. Joe Offer, you out there? Remember the Enemies List? So then, what does it say about both of our presidential candidates, that they think so highly of this guy?

Did you say "it doesn't say anything"? Congratulations, you win the rubber chicken!

14 Oct 08 - 05:09 PM (#2465653)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Azizi

There are wise and hopelessly stupid ones at all levels.
-

One has to wonder who is running the hopelessly stupid McCain campaign.

Take the campaign's targeting of ACORN.

Did McCain forget that he was a keynote speaker for an ACORN sponsored rally as late as Feb. 2006? If he forgot, why didn't his aids remember this before they tried to make ACORN the boogy man?

Check out this video and comments including this one:
"October 13, 2008, Miami, FL - U.S. Senator John McCains recent attacks on the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) are puzzling given his historic support for the organization and its efforts on behalf of immigrant Americans. As recently as February 20, 2006, Senator McCain was the keynote speaker at an ACORN-sponsored Immigration Rally in Miami, Florida at Miami Dade"
-Baylan72

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ9wy2MI1NI&eurl=http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/10/14/11030/966/664/629886

**

But actually, I think that McCain's main problem is bad judgment.

Take Ayers for example. I really hope that McCain brings up Ayers during the debate tomorrow. That will allow Obama to bring up these points that Republican Andrew Sullivan wrote about in his latest blog entry:

14 Oct 2008 12:46 pm
Republicans Who Fund Bill Ayers

"I think Obama's relatively weak but nonetheless real interactions with William Ayers are a legitimate campaign issue. But Obama's best response, after telling the facts of the relationship, is to point out who else supported him. Republican machers Walter and Leonora Annenberg gave the former terrorist $50 million. They also gave money to Rick Santorum, Strom Thurmond and Mitt Romney. Annenberg was Nixon's ambassador to Britain. If Obama is "palling around with terrorists," the Republican Annenbergs are funding them.

Yesterday, the McCain campain put out a press release boasting that Leonore Annenberg had just endorsed him for president. Why is McCain happy to accept the endorsement of a funder of terrorism?"

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/10/republicans-who.html

14 Oct 08 - 05:20 PM (#2465660)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Richard Bridge

I am getting a bit sick of the lunatic right who use the term "socialism" as an insult. Socialism is a fine and dignified philosphy that allows the dignity of each human individual, and supposes that no human should be allowed to fall blow a decent standard. Those who demean it would have us all as pigs grubbing in the trough with the most unpleasant getting the most swill. It is that cast of mind that justifies violent revolution against the exploiters. They have taken by force or fraud from the poor for generations. Let those who have sown the wind reap the whirlwind.

14 Oct 08 - 05:24 PM (#2465662)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Peace

That is a brilliant post, Richard. You got a standing ovation from this old boy.

Lyrics to a song I'm working on--on and off:

"Begone, begone you neocons
And take these billionaires
I have watched you from the moment of my birth
And I have seen the riches that
Your corporate sons of bitches have
Stolen from the people of this Earth."

Really good post, man. Thank you.

14 Oct 08 - 05:42 PM (#2465679)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Deckman

One of the ironies that is inescapable in President bush's economic plan is that now ... like it or not ... the feds are taking controll of the private banking arena. That certainly sounds "socialistic" to me. bob(deckman)nelson

14 Oct 08 - 06:36 PM (#2465724)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

Socialism means stuff such as nationalising banks if need be...

From today's paper "Washington declared yesterday that it would partially nationalise America's biggest banks to try to avert the melt-down of the entire US financial system"

14 Oct 08 - 06:37 PM (#2465725)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert

Richard, Richard, Richard,

Ain't it the Repub's God given duty to demonize words??? This is the only way they can win anything at all... They take a few words, demonize them with their vast control of right-winged talk shows and that's all it takes...

MiziAzizi,

Speaking of demonizin', ACORN is about to get the Repub treatment and over the next week thet right winged radio folks are gonna' demonize it and let loose all their little parrots to go out into their communities and blast the crap outta ACORN... Nevermind that it ***is*** the registrar who has to sift thru the registration forms before adding someone to the voting roles... Nevermind that less than 1% will be found to have no actual person exist... No, we are going to hear all about how the Dallas Cowboy's entire team wwas turned in by someone who ***supposedly*** was an ACORN worker...

No, what the Repubs are doing is trying to create a situation where if things are close in one state that they will have sympathy if the recount goes to court... The Repub lawyers are very good at stealing lections... Heck, they should be... They have alot of experience...

So ACORN will go down this year with socialism...

My thoughts to the crooked Repub lawyers??? Demonize THIS!!!

B~

14 Oct 08 - 06:41 PM (#2465730)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Peace

I have not got my glasses. Was your middle finger in the air when you said that, Bobert?

14 Oct 08 - 07:14 PM (#2465760)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Don Firth

Obama is a socialist, you say?

God, I hope so!! One more reason to vote for him!

Don Firth

14 Oct 08 - 07:29 PM (#2465777)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert

Well, Brucie... The ol' me woulda certainly had the middle finger in the air but Obama done settled the ol' me down some but not to worry 'cause...

...it's never far from my thoughts...

.1..

B~

14 Oct 08 - 07:30 PM (#2465780)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Peace

Nor mine, buddy.

14 Oct 08 - 07:44 PM (#2465795)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Art Thieme

I's about time!

Art

14 Oct 08 - 07:51 PM (#2465799)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Azizi

So is McCain and his surrogates calling Obama a socialist and badmouthing ACORN to change the subject from Troopergate, Palin and her husband's connections to the secessionist Alaska Independent Party and this? :

McCain Transition Chief Aided Saddam In Lobbying Effort
-Murray Wass

October 14, 2008

"William Timmons, the Washington lobbyist who John McCain has named to head his presidential transition team, aided an influence effort on behalf of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein to ease international sanctions against his regime.

The two lobbyists who Timmons worked closely with over a five year period on the lobbying campaign later either pleaded guilty to or were convicted of federal criminal charges that they had acted as unregistered agents of Saddam Hussein's government...

Timmons' activities occurred in the years following the first Gulf War, when Washington considered Iraq to be a rogue enemy state and a sponsor of terrorism. His dealings on behalf of the deceased Iraqi leader stand in stark contrast to the views his current employer held at the time...

As Time magazine's Michael Scherer recently reported, Timmons is "a Washington institution," having worked as a senior aide to every Republican president since Richard Nixon. He also serves as chairman emeritus of Timmons and Company, "a small but influential lobbying firm he founded in 1975 shortly after leaving the White House."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/14/mccain-transition-chief-a_n_134595.html

-snip-

So McCain not only pals around but hires a lobbyist that was under contract with Sadaam Hussein? No wonder McCain wants to change the subject.
So

14 Oct 08 - 07:54 PM (#2465803)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Azizi

Correction:

The journalist's correct name is Murray Waas.

14 Oct 08 - 07:58 PM (#2465809)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: katlaughing

That excellent, bringing that to light, Azizi. Thanks.

Richard, Loved your post!!

14 Oct 08 - 08:01 PM (#2465811)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: katlaughing

Forgot to post a link to an excellent take on Palin from the Guardian:

clickety.

14 Oct 08 - 08:03 PM (#2465815)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert

Well, Miz... I donno... Troopergate, afetr Bush, ain't much of a story... We all figured that the gal had more skeltons in her closet than Carter has liver pills so I don't think there is anything that couole be found out about Ms. Sarah, including nude pics, that would have any impact on her rabid Brown Shirt followers but...

... I am concerned that the Repubs are setting up for a repeat of 2000 if they come ven close with their attacks on ACORN.... I think these attacks are worth alot more effort on defending than Ms. S's past bad behavior... Face it, her supporters are "true believin' rednecks" who won't believe anything that is founf out about her past... That's what makes true believers... They don't care about facts...

ACORN, however, is defendable... At least for now...

That's my take on it, anyway...

B~

15 Oct 08 - 01:16 AM (#2465949)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

"I'm not happy with the fact that the Democrats allowed themselves to be snowed"

Who voted against it and who voted for it the fist time around?

Are you making apologies for the dumb ass Democrats and at the same time claiming they are so much better than the Republicans? That's a real hoot.

In the past two years while Republicans were warning of impending disaster and asking for reform the Democratic majority did nothing but whine and accept money from lobbyists and Wall streeters.

If not, tell me exactly what they have done.

15 Oct 08 - 01:58 AM (#2465961)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

I thought the first time around didn't matter. That's what I've been told quite a few times by the above poster in another thread. No, we don't consider who voted the first time. We only consider who voted for or against the final bill, or so I am told. And the final bill had bipartisan support. Almost equal support in the Senate, and substantial Republican support in the House.

I'm not making apologies for the Democrats. They've done their share of terrible things. But I know which kinds of terrible things the Democrats are responsible for, and which kinds of terrible things the Republicans are responsible for. And in the case of the current economic situation in the US (and around the world), that is mostly the baby of the Republican party, and it is entirely the product of the Republican political and economic philosophy.

15 Oct 08 - 01:59 AM (#2465962)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Peace

IMO, they have been at the trough along with the rest of 'em. hard to find soemone who isn't tainted with supporting slave labour by buying chocolate from the Cote d'Ivoire or shoes from Thailand. The neocons have done their job well. Time to stop playing the game they want us to.

15 Oct 08 - 02:22 AM (#2465966)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

They all are, and working for the same agenda. One uses the brain police, and the other a police state, with the brain police! Time for a real change, back to true patriotism, freedom, and liberty!

15 Oct 08 - 02:25 AM (#2465968)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Peace

I knew I liked you. Still do.

15 Oct 08 - 02:37 AM (#2465975)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

"rabid Brown Shirt followers"

That must be the Obama truth squads:

The Obama folks have a VERY large organization, part of their Truth Squad. that is exclusively dedicated to watching for blog entries that appear anywhere that are about Sarah Palin. Once spotted, they leave nasty comments and IM others in the group to come "pile on". It's going to get worse - they attack and attempt to silence freedom of speech on a daily basis.

It's shocking to watch the Democrats morph into an organization that copies, almost verbatim, tactics straight from the National Socialism playbook. Sadly, I suspect that most people have no idea of what is going on here - most people do not recognize the signs of what is happening right here in America today. Students of history should be able to recognize these signs - they are observing a new incarnation of the NSDAP taking shape right before their eyes.

15 Oct 08 - 02:45 AM (#2465979)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

You should request Joe Offer, to send you, or re-post a post I did on the 'Time waster' thread.....everyone here, just about peed their pants laughing, because it was so-o-o true!...About the Game, people play, on this blog(actually, a lot of blogs)..and how one accumulates points, and wins! I swear, the other musicians here, (and non musicians), were laughing to tears, and couldn't catch their breaths!

15 Oct 08 - 03:03 AM (#2465987)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

"No, we don't consider who voted the first time"

I was told that the second time did not matter so which way do you want it? Obviously both ways.

Or have you backed off of your position?

And did the bailout pass overwhelmingly like GLBA or just squeak by?

Just like the vote to go to war, Democrats want to run hide behind the Republicans because they lack courage and then later on they start calling them names and blaming everything on them if something goes wrong.

How many years before Bush took office were the blowhard Democrats beating their chests and swearing about those WMDs that Saddam had? Now they lack the moral fiber to admit they were wrong.

15 Oct 08 - 03:17 AM (#2465988)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

WMD's??? Look, they knew the Iraqis had them...they have the sales receipts! During the Iran-Iraqi war, we sold stuff to both sides..well, not 'we'...they....well, I didn't mean 'we', as in 'We the people...' Come to think of it,..are they us??..Are we them?...If not, who are we voting for?..them??..or one of 'us'..you know, 'We'......I do-o-o-n't think so-o-o-........WMD's?....oh, you meant 'Words of Mass Deception', Yeah, THEY have plenty of them!...'Vote for me'...'Vote for me'!

15 Oct 08 - 03:32 AM (#2465997)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Peace

Walt Kelly was right.

15 Oct 08 - 03:45 AM (#2466004)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Umm, who was Walt Kelly?

15 Oct 08 - 04:23 AM (#2466020)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Peace

Walt Kelly was the creator of Pogo, a character and in a comic strip of the same name. IMO, Kelly was an adept and bright social commentator in the course of his cartooning career. He died about 30 years ago.

The strip I alluded to is linked to below. That particular page is framed by people on occasion. I don't know whether it's a 'famous' cartoon, but it was certainly well known years back.

Here.

15 Oct 08 - 04:40 AM (#2466031)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Ahh yes, that was a famous line..however, in the context I was using it,
once 'they' divide us...are we still them???? ..I'm so blown away, at all the bullshit believers in here!..they even defend themselves, as to the right and ability, to believe their lies...well, the DO have the right..but have you noticed that the most 'liberal' ones, are not very 'liberal' at all....just a bunch of stopped-up ear parrots, with absolutely no...I mean NO tolerance for another point of view???? Wow!, aren't they so hip??...open minded, and 'liberal'.....Reminds me of an old Phil Oches tune, named 'Love Me, Love Me, Love me, I'm a Liberal' Look it up online.
As for me, I'm conservative on my liberalism, and liberal on my conservatism......or something like that.....actually, I'm pretty free. Free to create, Free to understand, and free to adjust...free to move on, beyond political bondage.

15 Oct 08 - 04:45 AM (#2466037)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Can't have it both ways. Either the first vote counts or it doesn't. Which is it?

For a long time, I've been saying that the Democrats and the Republicans all work for the same people. And up until now, I believe that this was true. But at this point in history, I see a shift in those dynamics. Because of the internet and because of how the internet makes it possible for large numbers of people to make an impact with few resources, I see changes in that dynamic in this election cycle.

The whole Republican philosophy is about redistribution of wealth from the bottom to the top, consolidation of power to a few at the top, and exploiting people and resources at the expense of the world and the masses. The Democrats have been guilty of some of these things, but that's not their entire philosophy. Although they haven't always been true to their core philosophy (Bill Clinton being one example), their core philosophy, when practiced, makes life better for a lot of people.

When Republicans behave in a way that is consistent with their core philosophy, a lot of people suffer. When Democrats behave in a way that is consistent with their core philosophy, life gets better for a lot of people. As with cigarettes, there's no good reason to have a party like the Republican party - when used as intended, people suffer. When the Democrats are behaving in a way that is consistent with their core philosophy, there's a lot of good reasons to have a party like the Democratic party.

I see a big shift happening in the Democratic party right now, a shift that is created by the fact that all of our politicians know they're vulnerable right now, and the voters - in particular, the Democratic voters - are starting to hold their feet to the fire.

If Republicans hold the Republicans' feet to the fire, nothing changes, because the Republicans have been doing what their core constituency wanted. If Democrats (and non-Democrats who have voted for Democrats) hold the Democratic politicians feet to the fire, the Democratic politicians will have to start behaving in a way that is consistent with their core philosophy, and a lot of people will benefit from that.

It might not work, but it's definitely worth a try. We need a large Democratic majority in both the House and Senate.

15 Oct 08 - 04:51 AM (#2466042)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

CarolC, your post was dizzying. You were right, originally. It's not a matter of taste, it's a matter of perception dysfunction...same as in music, why some people block out certain kinds of music, and cannot see anything in any other form other than the one they focused on to like...get larger, expand, lower the blockages of understanding...they need you, more than you need them!

15 Oct 08 - 04:56 AM (#2466045)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Peace

Yes, but in so many ways we have all been caught up in the sides and parties. There is essentially little distance between them. There have been processions of mediocre and harmful governments in the US and elsewhere. The 'common' enemies imo for all humankind are neocons and big corporations. They are rich enough to manipulate markets over long periods of time relatively speaking, and much of what governments do is at their behest and for THEIR good, not that of humankind in general. Hence, we have met the enemy . . . .

15 Oct 08 - 04:59 AM (#2466048)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Peace

Sorry. There were two posts that which appeared while I was writing that deathless prose. Just thought I'd share that with you.

15 Oct 08 - 05:05 AM (#2466049)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

I think it's not I who needs to expand. I think it's the above poster who needs expanding. I see things happening that are new and that are not a part of any old dynamic. How long it takes these new dynamics to prevail is anyone's guess, but they will prevail eventually. And it really doesn't matter how much people think they can make it happen or prevent it from happening. None of that matters. It's happening, it's going to happen, and there's nothing anyone can do to stop it. At this point in history, the more people thrash about trying to impose their will on the development of humanity, the more they just shoot themselves in their own feet. This is new and it's allowing a lot of very important changes to take place.

The expansion is people recognizing the power they have themselves and using that power to create better outcomes within their own spheres of influence. I even see that happening with some of the people who have been working the hardest to retard human development for so long. Everybody is changing, whether they like it or not. Some are struggling a lot harder than others and resisting the changes, but they won't be able to do that indefinitely. They will wear themselves out trying and then they will give up.

15 Oct 08 - 05:06 AM (#2466050)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

I said above poster, but I am not referring anything in the posts directly above my last post.

15 Oct 08 - 05:28 AM (#2466066)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Peace

That's cool, Carol, but thank you.

15 Oct 08 - 07:56 AM (#2466162)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: kendall

This latest round of deregulation started with Ronald (the actor) Reagan. "Get the government off our backs". (and into our bedrooms)

As I understand it, McCain and Phil Gramm finished the job. They let the fox into the henhouse, and now they are saying the democrats did it. Everyone knows that democrats are for regulations (to protect the poor from the rich) and that republicans want free rein to do whatever they want in business. Those are basic facts.
Capitalism has failed. (As Li'l Abner would say, "As any fool can plainly see."

"The republican party was created to rescue the working man from the clutches of the greedy land owner." (A. Lincoln"

This crap about redistribution of the wealth is a smoke screen No one is advocating that. The rich have been screwing the poor for centuries. That's how they got rich in the first place!

When asked which is more important, labor or capital, A. Lincoln said, "Capital is the result of, and could not exist without labor. Therefore, labor is more important."

Capitalism has failed due to its own greed. Socialism is on the horizon.

15 Oct 08 - 09:53 AM (#2466245)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Greg F.

PEDANT ALERT !!
The actual Lincoln quote is:

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. {First Annual Message to Congress,December 3, 1861}

and its worth quoting in its entirety (with apologies to Kendall)

This only points up how far the current Repubs have strayed from the principles the party was founded upon with their pandering to the lunatic fundagelical right & etc. and makes their constant harping on "the party of Lincoln" all the more sickening.

15 Oct 08 - 01:09 PM (#2466436)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Donuel

This is my illustration of money http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/money3.jpg

15 Oct 08 - 01:10 PM (#2466438)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: kendall

No sweat Greg, I was too lazy to look up the whole quote

15 Oct 08 - 01:23 PM (#2466451)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: robomatic

"Socialism is great in theory. The only problem with it is it can be realized" a great man once said and how right I was!

And Sarah Palin is a barracuda.

15 Oct 08 - 01:50 PM (#2466474)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: PoppaGator

"...the lunatic fundagelical right..."

Beautiful!

What a great new word, "fundagelical" ~ did you coin it, Greg? If so, someone ought to give you a prize, maybe someone in Stockholm, Sweden. ;^)

(I had to say it out loud to myself once or twice to get a correct reading and learn to pronouce it. Now it's part of my vocabulary for good!)

15 Oct 08 - 02:18 PM (#2466502)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: dick greenhaus

The only "ism" that really works is Pragmatism.

15 Oct 08 - 03:18 PM (#2466542)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

To Donuel: I read your link, and unfortunately, it starts off with a misquote, "Money is the root of all evil"...that is a misquote, from Jesus who said, "The LOVE of money is the root of all evil"...huge difference!..Look it up yourself..While you're in there, check out some other stuff too..perhaps, "Love your brother, as you love yourself"..great stuff, but, alas, there is a concerted effort to minimalise it...to their peril.

Kendall: "Capitalism has failed due to its own greed. Socialism is on the horizon".

Actually, the two are at war with each other, by the power mongers. Too bad...a balance is better. What we are 'feeling' now is a power struggle for control, all by idiots, spreading their idiot-ology!!

Peace: "Yes, but in so many ways we have all been caught up in the sides and parties. There is essentially little distance between them. There have been processions of mediocre and harmful governments in the US and elsewhere."
Their is NO distance between them! It is a two headed snake, with the same purpose!..and, they are swallowing their own tail!

And to all those who think pure socialism, is the answer: Socialism did not 'found a country, or build it to be great. It comes up, AFTER,
good and decent people and families, built their country, History shows this!
The only people who need the government, and government programs, as a crutch, to get going, are people who need crutches....LAMES!

15 Oct 08 - 03:51 PM (#2466575)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: katlaughing

Great new word, Greg!!

Donuel, some folks have never heard of paraphrasing. I like it. Keep up the good work.

15 Oct 08 - 04:08 PM (#2466593)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

'Donuel, some folks have never heard of paraphrasing. I like it.'
Jeez, there is a big difference in misquoting and paraphrasing...but that may require an education...as in music, 'Speed, is a bi-product of accuracy!'

15 Oct 08 - 04:16 PM (#2466603)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Everybody needs assistance from the government to get going. Everybody, every day. People don't build their own roads, maintain the safety of, and direct the traffic on those roads to get to work every day. People don't provide themselves with the education they need to do the jobs that they rely on to survive. In places that don't have public education, most people are uneducated.

15 Oct 08 - 04:19 PM (#2466609)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks

ANOTHER PEDANT ALERT: a quote is contained between quotation marks ("..."). That is why they are called quotation marks - they mark a quotation. A comment not enclosed between quotation marks may be called many things, but never a misquotation, because it is not a quotation in the first place.

15 Oct 08 - 04:22 PM (#2466611)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Little Hawk

GfS is correct that a balance of capitalism and socialism is the best way to go. They are natural partners and should be able to work together quite effectively (as they presently do in most if not all western democracies). The endless diatribes that bounce back and forth between Left and Right are not helping things much, they are simply maintaining strife and distraction.

There's no reason why people should fear socialism, per se, because you MUST have some socialism to run a modern society.

There's no reason why people should fear capitalism, per se, because it remains a very effective way of enabling people to exchange thousands of different goods and services that are better not handled through socialism.

The demonization of both socialism and capitalism in popular rhetoric is not productive. It's a distraction.

To call Obama a "socialist" seems silly to me. If he's going to be an American president he will be governing a country that will continue to deal with socialism and capitalism BOTH, and there ain't no other way to do it.

He has to be both a socialist AND a capitalist if he is going to govern America.

Same goes for McCain, by the way. There's no way they can privatize everything, no matter what the politicians posture and pretend about it. Nor is there any way they can socialize everything. It will always be a combination of the two.

15 Oct 08 - 04:27 PM (#2466617)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

The notion that capital is the fruit of labor is genuine and real in its original meaning. However it is an early 20th century sentiment. Since the evolution of Bretton Woods style fiscal manipulation, it has gradually become less clear, and the fiat of government has become the origin point of capital. THis is of course a substitute for the real thing, but since money is at the bottom a reflection of confidence in an idea, it works until that confidence erodes and crumbles. The entire credit market is built on the belief in the credit of the various parties wh generate and distribute this fiat capital.

It creates a bubble, like any Ponzi scheme, that shrinks rapidly when confidence fails and thus breaks the fiat cycle's refresh rate. At that point the economy can be expected to shrink until it approximates the level of genuine capital available, backed by real things and real people. The difference between this ground-truth confidence and the false-belief level of confidence in the bubble can be dramatic.

A

15 Oct 08 - 05:15 PM (#2466659)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

From: CarolC
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 04:16 PM

'Everybody needs assistance from the government to get going.'

Building infrastructure is NOT the same as you are alluding to. Jeez, CarolC,.I don't know what to tell you...you got your stuff all mixed up. I think you are so bent on arguing that you argue for argument's sake! Not a good way to take in information. I think it's an emotional dilemma.., you do it a lot,..sorry.

15 Oct 08 - 05:18 PM (#2466665)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert

I've been trying to figure out just what, other than George Bush and to some extent, Sarah Plain, has gone so terribly wrong with John McCain's campaign and I think this discussion has alot to do with it...

There can be no doubt that the kind of capitalism that has been practiced in the US for at least the last 30 years isn't working and herein lies Obama's strenght and McCain's weakness... Obama is younger and more open minded and John McCain is juts the opposite... Sure, McCain is running from pillar to post like a bumper car out of control looking as if he gets it but he doesn't...

See, the problems is that "change" is allready here... That is worth repeating... Change is allready here and whether people consciously accept it or not, I think that if it were put to them exactly that way that most would agree...

So given that change is allready here it's more about which guy most folks think can best work within that reality... Obama seems to inately understand that it's a matter of going with the flow and McCain is still fighting... Might of fact, that is his latest cmapiagn slogan... There's no fighting something that has allready occured...

No, I'm not promising an Obama victory but just making an observation that the tides seem to favor someone who ain't gonna spend alot of energy trying to make stuff like it used to be...

Just some thoughts from the ol' hillbilly...

B~

15 Oct 08 - 05:24 PM (#2466674)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Bobert: ..Whadya' mean??..Sarah has been the only thing entertaining about this whole, stupid campaign!!..Even a little comic relief, if it wasn't so tragic!

15 Oct 08 - 05:34 PM (#2466686)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Building infrastructure is in no way different than people relying on government to oversee the administration of health insurance or relying on government to regulate the financial industry, and any number of other things that government does better than private industry.

As I said before, I'm not the one who doesn't get it. It's the poster who thinks they know everything, including the contents of other peoples' minds who doesn't get it.

Here's the facts. Nobody in the world does everything for him or herself. Everybody in the world relies on other people to help them get their needs met. The only question is who is going to be relied on for that purpose. In the kind of capitalist system that this country has been utilizing for the last few decades, the focus has been on the market to perform this function. As we can see, the market is useless for some functions. It does not do a good job of providing health care, access to roads, education, keeping the peace, providing for people in their old age, and quite a few other things in which profit motive creates a conflict of interest.

The only question is how much of our needs will be met through government administered programs, and how much through the market. There is no situation in which everything can be provided by the market alone.

And this habit of the poster whose points I am addressing, of constantly making personal comments about those he/she is addressing, doesn't assist that person in making their points more effectively. That habit just makes him/her look rather clueleses and pompous.

15 Oct 08 - 06:00 PM (#2466710)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

From: CarolC
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 05:34 PM

As I said before, I'm not the one who doesn't get it. It's the poster who thinks they know everything, including the contents of other peoples' minds who doesn't get it.

What else do you know??

15 Oct 08 - 06:09 PM (#2466720)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Richard Bridge

Quote of the Week
'I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.'
Thomas Jefferson 1802

15 Oct 08 - 06:10 PM (#2466721)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

I know the contents of my own mind. Unlike the above poster, I don't pretend to know the contents of other peoples' minds.

15 Oct 08 - 06:11 PM (#2466725)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

*The "above poster" being the poster directly after my last post.

15 Oct 08 - 06:25 PM (#2466738)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert

Wait, wait, wait...

Ummmmmm, I'm not too sure where the conflict arises, CarolC, between you and Richard... But then again I kinda just treat threads as waves and don't get too bogged down with what someone said last week or last year but...

... I think you will agree with Richard that the quote by Thomas Jefferson is very in much in line with what you are saying...

But either way, it's a good quote as is your post of 5:34...

I think both deal with what can go wrong when the markets are freed to either police themselves or...

...lookout for the general good of the country...

B~

15 Oct 08 - 06:45 PM (#2466755)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Donuel

Pure unadulterated predatorism is the antithesis of civilization

We have let the Financial Corporations loose without so much as a single regulation to limit their predator nature.
A Casino has a hundred times more regulations than the Republican run, Democrat encouraged Financial Frankenstein corporations.

Maybe just maybe you want the fall of civilization, if so, then go ahead and throw socialism to the dogs.

dear GUEST in the land of sanity

who are you and why are you not writing from the core of your being instead of just tracing a parody of a reactionary?

PS if I did include the entire quote the graphic shape of the poem would have been distorted.

15 Oct 08 - 06:47 PM (#2466757)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Donuel

The "above poster" being the poster directly after my last post several posts back. :

15 Oct 08 - 06:52 PM (#2466760)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Stringsinger

There is nothing wrong with being called a "socialist" except that it reflects badly on the accuser. The usual accuser knows nothing about socialism or liberalism except that it is a pejorative term, the kind that Palin uses in her speeches to the rabid fear-mongers.

FDR was called a "socialist" for implementing the New Deal which eventually brought the US out of the Depression.

Obama is not a pure socialist, however, because he believes in entrepreneurism and support for small business. He is not actively opposed to Wall Street but to it's excesses.

There is no pure socialism in America and hasn't been for a long time.

Norman Thomas ran on the Socialist Party long ago.

The person that posted this doesn't know anything about socialism.

15 Oct 08 - 06:55 PM (#2466763)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Art Thieme

My comment wass about having a Socialist president----not about McCainn.

Azizzi,
That IS his name? Or are you saying that waas his name? ISS it still his name? Did he change his name? When was it his name? Didd he offfishially change his name?

At the debate tonight, who's on first?

Love,

Art

15 Oct 08 - 06:56 PM (#2466764)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Donuel

The people here who defend the unquestioned predator destruction of America and the global economy, are frauds.

The only people who could personally and rationally defend these predators would be billionaires. I assume the frauds here are not billionaires.

I know frauds, Frauds are my friends so don't take my calling you a fraud personally.

15 Oct 08 - 07:04 PM (#2466772)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Art Thieme

Frank,

You are right, there is nothing wrong with being a Socialist. Soooo, you are both wrong and right. But nobody ever called you right before, right? Left, maybe, I'm sure -- but never right!

Until now!

Love to Mary,
Art

15 Oct 08 - 07:10 PM (#2466781)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Art Thieme

Sigmund fraud!

Humor is the last refuge for the doomed!!

If ya don't have a sense o' humor, it isn't funny!
(the economy)

Art

15 Oct 08 - 07:23 PM (#2466789)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

My last post was not in response to anything said in the post directly above it. I crossposted with that poster when I made my post. My post was in response to things in the post directly before that one.

This business of not being allowed to quote the contents of posts creates a lot of confusion, I know, but there isn't anything I can do about it.

15 Oct 08 - 07:44 PM (#2466800)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert

And here's what Obama needs to say tonight:

"Capitalism, as it has been practiced since Ronald Reagan was elected, has worked cross purpose with the long term viablility of oor country... It has left the middle class no longer able to afford the imports that used to be produced in America... The jobs that have been created have been lousy $7 an hour jobs selling imported stuff to one another... 82% od the wealth is now in the hands of only 5% of our population... You tell us to go shop but with what??? Our credit cards??? They are maxed... With our pay checks??? They are a joke...

Yes, this economic system has just failed the final exam... And failed it very badly... John McCain says that all we need to do is give even more to the upper 5%... Can you believe that???

No, my fellow Americans... Enough is enough... There is nothing left to give John McCain's frineds... They have it all allready... "

That's what Obama needs to tell the nation tonight...

B~

15 Oct 08 - 07:54 PM (#2466808)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: kendall

"Humor is the opiate of the chronically melancholy"

15 Oct 08 - 08:32 PM (#2466835)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

I believe the quote is "Patriotism is the last refuge of despots"

That was for the last poster, before the other one, before the 6th one down, above the third one, in the other thread, right before the second to the last, that was referring to the second one, above the third from the middle, just before the ninth on to the left...and back again! Got that??

15 Oct 08 - 09:03 PM (#2466853)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Barry Finn

I agree that Captialism is fine when combined & balanced with Socialism but Captialism fails when it produces an empty air bubble. When it manufactures less & makes more, that bubble bursts & that is why we need to regulate & why Ronnie R wanted to deregulate. To deregulae those that produce nothing is to off set the labor of those that do produce. A company that trades in an inflated air bubble (ex: Enron) will evenually go burst/broke, as will a Street load of vendors that sell nothing back & forth on capatial that they don't own in the 1st place. The credit bubble finally couldn't float anymore but it's not because Capatialism wasn't working & it wasn't because Socialism was disappearing, it's because we/they choose to let the finanical industry manage itself, the foxes were put in charge of the chicken coop & instaed of producing eggs, poultry, chicken fertializer the foxes instead traded the goods produced for a feast & left behind only the chicken gas.

Now if anyone donesn't like the system & there's lot's to not like about it, go out & change it. The system allows for it's self to be changed. Either that or revolt, it does allow for that too. But to spit on it as a whole doesn't do anyone any good. If you want some changes now is as good a time as I've seen since the 60's to make that come about, unless MaCain & Payin gets elected. Now's the time to speak, now's the time to fight to get your civil & human rights that were lost back, now's the time to take it to the streets.
I did my fighting & it cost me dearly, I won't be in the front lines again but I will back a movement that fights for a better way of life for all that live here.
Opp's the debate, bye-byee

Barry

16 Oct 08 - 01:23 AM (#2466949)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Obama's Buddy, Bill Ayres

Caracas, Venezuela November 7, 2006

President Hugo Chavez, Vice-President Vicente Rangel, Ministers Moncada and Isturiz, invited guests,comrades. Iâ€™m honored and humbled to be here with you this morning. I bring greetings and support from your brothers and sisters throughout Northamerica. Welcome to the World Education Forum! Amamos la revolucion Bolivariana!

This is my fourth visit to Venezuela, each time at the invitation of my comrade and friend Luis Bonilla, a brilliant educator and inspiring fighter for justice. Luis has taught me a great deal about the Bolivarian Revolution and about the profound educational reforms underway here in Venezuela under the leadership of President Chavez. We share the belief that education is the motor-force of revolution, and Iâ€™ve come to appreciate Luis as a major asset in both the Venezuelan and the international struggleâ€"I look forward to seeing how he and all of you continue to overcome the failings of capitalist education as you seek to create something truly new and deeply humane. Thank you, Luis, for everything youâ€™ve done.

I also thank my youngest son, Chesa Boudin, who is interpreting my talk this morning and whose book on the Bolivarian revolution has played an important part in countering the barrage of lies spread by the U.S. State Department and the corrupted Northamerican media.......
......Viva Mission Sucre!
Viva Presidente Chavez!
Viva La Revolucion Bolivariana!
Hasta La Victoria Siempre!

I believe this guy is not just a terrorist but a Communist to boot.

I can envision Mr Obama in Venezeula, calling people Comerade and shouting Viva Presidente Chavez! with his fist in the air.

And what has this Annenberg thing accomplished with the money poured into it besides glorify itself?

16 Oct 08 - 01:27 AM (#2466953)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

Your visions, needless to say, are fragmentary hallucinations, Sawz. My Ayers is not Mr Obama, and they are not even particularly close. You have been duped and gulled into hating more than you need to.

A

16 Oct 08 - 01:43 AM (#2466962)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

CAPTURED FARC COMPUTERS NAME BARACK OBAMA (Updated)

Captured FARC documents name Obama

Dead terrorist Raul Reyes had information that FARC was meeting "gringos" about Obama.

The computers captured this past weekend by Colombian soldiers at the campsite of FARC #2 Raul Reyes contained loads of damning information on FARC sympathizers and allies.

The Colombians captured two FARC terrorist laptop computers at the terrorist camp. The Colombians discovered a treasure trove of information on the laptops including:

-- FARC connections with Ecuadorean president Rafael Correa
-- Records of $300 million offerings from Hugo Chavez
-- Thank you notes from Hugo Chavez dating back to 1992
-- Uranium purchasing records
-- Directions on how to make a Dirty Bomb

But, no one expected this---

The FARC Terrorists were hoping and expecting that Barack Obama would win the US elections in November because he was most aligned with the Colombian Marxist group.

This document was posted at Martha Colmenares (in Spanish) and Free Republic:

"6. Los gringos pedirï¿½n cita con el ministro para solicitarle nos comunicara su interï¿½s en conversar estos temas. Dicen que el nuevo presidente de su paï¿½s serï¿½ Obama y que ellos estï¿½n interesados en sus compatriotas. Obama no apoyara Plan Colombia ni firma de TLC. Aquï¿½ respondimos que nos interesan las relaciones con todos los gobiernos en igualdad de condiciones y que en el caso de Estados Unidos se requiere in pronunciamiento pï¿½blico expresando su interï¿½s en conversar con las Farc dada su eterna guerra con nosotros.

Es todo, Abrazos, Raï¿½l."

(translated)
6. The gringos will ask for an appointment with the minister to solicit him to communicate to us his interest in discussing these topics. They say that the new president of their country will be Obama and that they are interested in your compatriots. Obama will not support "Plan Colombia" nor will he sign the TLC (Colombian Free Trade agreement). Here we responded that we are interested in relations with all governments in equality of conditions and that in the case of the US it is required a public pronouncement expressing their interest in talking with the FARC given their eternal war against us.
Hat Tip BG

16 Oct 08 - 01:44 AM (#2466963)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Barry Finn

Saws, you should be as ashamed as MaSame for even going there-to Ayers. You got to be kidding. How low to their level you sink.

And if you think that there's something wrong with Chavez, you should live among the Venezeulan population, he's there by popular vote of the people, they love him, it's George Bush, Cheney & their kind that can't stand him, mmmmmmm wonder why? Oil, maybe??? It's no wonder the rich & elite want to kill him. It's the same the world over, open you eyes & mind.

Barry

16 Oct 08 - 01:55 AM (#2466965)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Barry Finn

"The FARC Terrorists were hoping and expecting that Barack Obama would win the US elections in November because he was most aligned with the Colombian Marxist group."

If you've been listening to any overseas news you'd find that most of the world is hopig that Obama gets elected. Not just our enemies but our friends too. Says alot when that doesn't come up on the national screen doesn't it. You ought to get out more often, staying at home dulls the senses.

Barry

16 Oct 08 - 03:59 AM (#2466989)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Obama said in the debate that he doesn't support the free trade agreement with Columbia because they're killing union organizers in that country, who are trying to get better conditions for workers there. I can see how the FARC people might like that stance. However, I think that the people who are killing the union organizers are also terrorists, and they probably don't like Obama at all.

16 Oct 08 - 04:07 AM (#2466994)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Sawzaw, Pretty impressive stuff you posted! I doubt if die hard Obama supporters would be even phased..they are sorta suicidal, and proud of it!

16 Oct 08 - 04:10 AM (#2466996)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Stu

"However, I think that the people who are killing the union organizers are also terrorists..."

The people killing union staff in Columbia are tolerated by these wonderful people.

It's the real thing!

16 Oct 08 - 04:31 AM (#2467011)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,A regular

'I doubt if die hard Obama supporters would be even phased..they are sorta suicidal, and proud of it!'

You can call a sheep a dog, but that will not make it bark.

The garbage being promulgated by his enemies about Obama is just that: garbage. However, on a positive note his enemies have honoured him because it's easy to see that they perceive him to be a serious threat. Supporting someone is not a win/lose issue. It is a matter of honour. Many things in life are matters of honour. One of those things is this election.

16 Oct 08 - 05:34 AM (#2467043)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

From: GUEST,A regular
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 04:31 AM

'I doubt if die hard Obama supporters would be even phased..they are sorta suicidal, and proud of it!'
You can call a sheep a dog, but that will not make it bark.

The garbage being promulgated by his enemies about Obama is just that: garbage

IF you watched the debates, Obama was having a hard time, clearing the record, of some of the attacks, convincingly. I support neither candidate fully, and see some positive in both,...just not enough, to convince me that they are honest, and trustworthy men. I think both have their problems in that area.
What about a sheep dog?

16 Oct 08 - 07:47 AM (#2467105)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: kendall

In 1776 we went to war to free ourselves from a foreign dictator. We won, well, (sorta) Now, many countries have tried the same thing but we back the despots who treat their subjects like shit!
Mr. Chavez is the fair haired boy to the destitute that were held down so long.
If democracy is good for us, why not the poor who were freed by Chevez?

16 Oct 08 - 08:13 AM (#2467136)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert

Making Obama out to be a terrorist because he has shared the company with Bill Ayers is no more logical than making McCain out to be a Commie because he shared the company with North Vietnamese prison guards...

But beyond that, what Sawz/Dickey/OldGuy fails to take into account is that unlike most folks, politicans have to share the company with tons of people... It's part of the job... If Obama wanted to trivialize his campaign the way that McCain has he could turn his campaign loose and go digging thru all the various folks that McCain has rubbed elbows with over the years... I'm sure the list would be shocking...

But this election is way too important for trivializing... Too bad the McCains and the Sawzs of the world don't get it...

B~

16 Oct 08 - 08:40 AM (#2467160)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks

I had been trying to come up with a similar (hypothetical) situation in my own life to Obama's "relationship" with Ayers, and arrived at the name David Greenglass. For those whose memory doesn't immediately give them Greenglass' life story, he was convicted spy Julius Rosenberg's brother-in-law, also a confessed Soviet spy, whose perjured testimony sent Rosenberg's wife (who was Greenglass' sister) to the chair. The link between Greenglass and Ayers is that the Rosenbergs' trial (and Greenglass' very active part in it) were happening when I was eight years old, the same age as Obama was when Ayers and the Weather Underground were in the news.

Twenty-five years ago, when I was first involved in community organizations, if someone had invited me to chair an important committee, and introduced me to David Greenglass as a committee member, I wouldn't have had a clue to who he was, the name wouldn't have rung even the faintest of bells, and I would have seen no reason at all to investigate him further. Why would I? Why would anyone expect that Obama would have been any more aware of who Ayers had been, years before? Hell, even in the late '60s, "William Ayers" was hardly a household word. All of the charges against him were later dropped (because of FBI misconduct), while Greenglass got 17 years in jail.

16 Oct 08 - 09:07 AM (#2467184)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Not to mention the fact that Ayres was put on that board by the Annenburgs who were Republicans and had ties to Ronald Reagan. Does that make Ronald Reagan and the Annenburgs also terrorists by association? There were other Republicans on that board with Obama and Ayres. Does that make those Republicans also terrorists by association?

How about all of the people who are associated with Ayres at the university where he teaches (some of whom are Republicans)? Are they also terrorists by association?

This "guilt by association" thing is a very slippery slope, as they learned during the time of Joe McCarthy.

16 Oct 08 - 09:59 AM (#2467225)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Greg F.

Thanks! but tho I wish I could honestly claim it, "fundagelical" ain't mine- I picked it up somewhere & wish I could remember where so I could give proper attribution.

16 Oct 08 - 10:04 AM (#2467235)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: kendall

What about that woman who killed the abortion Doctor? Is she a McCain associate?

16 Oct 08 - 10:08 AM (#2467238)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Alice

The Annenbergs donated money to the McCain campaign. The guilt by association thing is so silly I can't believe it has gotten this much traction.

16 Oct 08 - 10:18 AM (#2467249)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

The woman who shot an abortion doctor in the arms has some connections to McCain. Someone who has worked on the McCain campaign at a local level has spoken publicly in support of the woman who shot the abortion doctor. So McCain has someone who has worked in his campaign who supports terrorists.

16 Oct 08 - 10:20 AM (#2467252)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

McCain took money from people who support terrorists! Well that settles it. McCain is a terrorist!

16 Oct 08 - 10:21 AM (#2467253)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

Glad we got that cleared up and sorted in a nice logical manner....

A

16 Oct 08 - 10:25 AM (#2467258)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Alice

Can't remember now which thread I posted the link on.
McCain's transition guy worked for Saddam Hussein to try to lesson sanctions on his regime.
Talk about working for terrorists?

16 Oct 08 - 10:45 AM (#2467274)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bill D

I wouldn't make too much of Chavez & others hinting that they'd rather see Obama elected....it's not that they think his philosophy is in line with their's....they just have visions of a McCain led administration doing some sort of unilateral bombing or invasion of their turf.

I don't think they will LIKE Obama's attitude towards them, but they consider his to be lesser of two what-they-call-evils.

Oh...and this recent attempt to scare Jewish voters by hinting that Obama will not honor agreements to protect Israel....that is crap! and beneath contempt!

16 Oct 08 - 12:18 PM (#2467363)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Donuel

Nationalising the entire banking system under Bush makes Bush the biggest national socialist in American history.

16 Oct 08 - 01:33 PM (#2467467)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Based on YOUR previous, and links,..which seem to be accurate....

Ayers with the Annenbergs, Obama with the Annenbergs, McCain with the Annenbergs, and Saddam Hussein, Ayers with Chavez, Chavez supporting Obama, Freddie and Fannie, giving money to Obama, and some(less to McCain) and Frank, and Dodd, Paulsen, with Goldman Sachs, now with the treasury, and nationalizing the banking system with Bush, Paulsen, when with Goldman Sachs, making it policy change to not back their loans with equity, Rezko, and on and on....and yet when I point out that ALL these fraudulent bozos are corrupt, and working with each other, taking away our rights...you jump my shit??? Go figure!! How much stuff has to come out, before your light bulbs go off?? The difference between Obama's socialism, and McCain's is Obama 'leans' toward Marxism, and McCain/Bush's toward fascism. Wow!, what a choice!!....
yeah, I know, a typical GfS post, I've heard that before too. WAKE THE F**K up!!!!!!

16 Oct 08 - 01:45 PM (#2467486)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: kendall

You know what they say about opinions.

16 Oct 08 - 01:49 PM (#2467491)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Opinions???????????????????????????????
Dig a hole and place your head in it....you might use the one you already have, ..again!

16 Oct 08 - 01:54 PM (#2467499)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Perhaps, you were referencing their opinions, not my facts...in which case....sorry...if not....follow the other instructions

16 Oct 08 - 02:03 PM (#2467513)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

GtS;

You "WAKE THE F**K up!!!!!!". I greatly admire your spirit and passion and even your tone of completely outraged indignation, sometimes, but your arm-waving accusations are defeating any intent you may have to communicate. There ARE ways to communicate effectively, I am sure you know, and ways to just shut down possible communication. McCain's types lean toward the latter.

There is nothing Marxist about Obama's positions, so give your arms (and any other body parts involved) a rest.

A

16 Oct 08 - 02:04 PM (#2467514)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

John McCain's economic team has two people on it who have lobbied for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac...

'Rick Davis: Before becoming McCain's campaign manager, Davis "served as president of an advocacy group led by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac that defended the two companies against increased regulation." As noted in the Progress Report, "During his tenure, Davis moved to challenge even the smallest measures to make sure that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are be held more accountable for their actions."'

'William Timmons: A consummate Washington insider, Timmons, who McCain tapped to head his presidential transition team, was a lobbyist with Timmons and Co., and lobbied for, among others, Freddie Mac. According to Time, "He has registered to work on bills that deal with the regulations of troubled mortgage lenders Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae."'

http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2008/09/15/mccain-econ-team/

That last one appears also to be the one who lobbied on behalf of Saddam.

16 Oct 08 - 02:05 PM (#2467516)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Do your homework, Amos...what i said is a WELL KNOWN FACT!!!

16 Oct 08 - 02:07 PM (#2467518)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Thank you, CarolC, for once again validating my exact point...hey Kendall, you out there?? Just as I was saying.

16 Oct 08 - 02:35 PM (#2467541)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: PoppaGator

"This business of not being allowed to quote the contents of posts creates a lot of confusion, I know, but there isn't anything I can do about it."

I very often include a brief quote from a previous post so as to clarify whatever the hell it is that I'm trying to talk about. (See previous paragraph.)

I had not realized that this common-sense precedure was against any rules, and I'm still not sure that it really is proscribed. I do know, for sure, that I have not been censured for doing so, and I do this on a daily basis.

Please don't hestiate to copy-and-paste a brief reference to whatever argument you wish to refute, or to any discussion you wish to continue. Makes things easier for all of us trying to read through this stuff.

16 Oct 08 - 03:16 PM (#2467575)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

LOL

Some people are desperate for validation. Others of us are just trying to follow our consciences.

16 Oct 08 - 03:20 PM (#2467580)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

I am not allowed to quote anything that other posters have said. I am also not allowed to copy paste anything that other posters have said. I am not allowed to address other posters directly. I am not allowed to refer directly to other posters. If I violate these rules, I will be barred from posting to the Mudcat. This rule applies only to me (at least, I am not aware of this rule applying to anyone else). It makes no sense to me, but there's nothing I can do about it.

16 Oct 08 - 03:27 PM (#2467585)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Little Hawk

Every time I see the title of this thread I smile and think...."Oh, please God, let it be so!"

16 Oct 08 - 03:28 PM (#2467586)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

Joe: I move these constraints be relieved.

A

16 Oct 08 - 03:35 PM (#2467592)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: PoppaGator

Joe ~ I second Amos' motion.

Carol ~ I would suggest that you push those limits a bit; see what happens if you use brief copied-and-pasted quotes, trying to comply with the spirit, if not the letter, of whatever special "laws" have been imposed on you and you alone.

There has to have been some reason for you to have been subjected to these special constraints. If you can understand why this happened, you should be able to adapt and resume making clear references without overdoing it. We can all hope that the powers-that-be will recognize that you are behaving yourself and need no longer be policed more stringently than the rest of us.

16 Oct 08 - 03:39 PM (#2467595)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

I'm sorry, but I don't really want to push the limits and then find out that I've been barred.

16 Oct 08 - 03:40 PM (#2467597)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

It's not like they've been particularly keen on cutting me any slack in the first place.

16 Oct 08 - 03:42 PM (#2467598)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: meself

"you jump my shit???"

??????

Is this gangsta-talk or jive-talk or what?

Just curious.

17 Oct 08 - 11:09 PM (#2468848)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

"he believes in entrepreneurism and support for small business"

Apparently the person that posted this has never lived under Socialisim and doesn't know what he is talking about.

Here is what comrade Obama wants for businesses:

THE HOUSE of Representatives is expected today to approve a bill, favored by organized labor, whose stated purpose is glaringly at odds with its key provision. The Employee Free Choice Act is portrayed by its supporters as a way to allow workers to choose whether to join a union.

Unfortunately, the legislation would do away with a secret ballot in so-called organizing elections, making it easier for union leaders to pressure co-workers in what should be a free choice. Instead of having the option of insisting on a secret ballot election, employers would have to accept a union formed on the basis of authorization cards signed by workers â€" not by a secret process....
....Unions once supported the secret ballot for organization elections. They were right then and are wrong now. Unions have every right to a fair hearing, and the National Labor Relations Board should be more vigilant about attempts by employers to game the system. In the end, however, whether to unionize is up to the workers. A secret ballot ensures that their choice will be a free one.

17 Oct 08 - 11:14 PM (#2468853)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Forgot to post name on other one.....sorry....(shuffles out of the room)

From: meself
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 03:42 PM
"you jump my shit?
Is this gangsta-talk or jive-talk or what?
Just curious.

Naw, I'm not a 'gangsta'..and I ain't jivin'!

17 Oct 08 - 11:40 PM (#2468865)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

"he Annenburgs who were Republicans and had ties to Ronald Reagan. Does that make Ronald Reagan and the Annenburgs also terrorists by association"

Does that make Ayres Legit by assicaition?

Comrade Ayres: Viva Presidente Chavez! Viva La Revolucion Bolivariana!

18 Oct 08 - 12:23 AM (#2468876)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks

Sawzaw, did you happen to notice that the article you cited is from March 2007? The Employee Free Choice Act is not before the House and, when brougt before the Senate last year, it died on a straight party-line vote.

18 Oct 08 - 12:25 AM (#2468878)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

You're pulling a long bow, there, pal. As usual.

Obama was endorsed by NOW. Yet, mysteriously, no-one is accusing him of being a woman. Or would you care to make the case?

A

18 Oct 08 - 12:28 AM (#2468881)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

First of all, anybody can quote anything I post and jump in my shit all they want but I advise them to wear boots.

What does it take to be a good community organizer? When Barack Obama trained community organizers for an ACORN subsidiary, Project Vote, he taught from the 1971 book 'Rules for Radicals', by the late socialist Saul Alinsky.

Although he attended Occidental College, and graduated from Columbia University and Harvard Law School, Obama calls his Alinskyite experience "the best education I ever had." In this photo, Obama is teaching Alinsky's principles of "Power Analysis" and "Relationships built on self-interest" as seen written upon the blackboard .

http://theunionnews.blogspot.com/2008/10/obamas-organizers-rat-patrol.html

Obama: "The only involvement I've had with ACORN is, I represented them alongside the U.S. Justice Department in making Illinois implement a motor voter law that helped people get registered at DMVs."

He did, but that wasn't his only involvement. He also worked closely with ACORN's Chicago office when he ran a Project Vote registration drive after law school, and Obama did some leadership training for Chicago ACORN. The Woods Fund, where Obama served as a board member, gave grants to ACORN's Chicago branch; both organizations are concerned with disadvantaged populations in that city. And during the primaries of this election, Obama's campaign paid upwards of $800,000 to the ACORN-affiliated Campaign Services Inc. for get-out-the-vote efforts (not voter registration). Those services were initially misrepresented on the campaign's Federal Election Commission reports, an error that some find suspicious and others say is par for the course. ACORN's Chicago office and CSI have not been under investigation.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_debate_no_3.html

18 Oct 08 - 01:17 AM (#2468895)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CamiSu

Sawz--

I'm a bit intrigued by your yelling. Actually not. I have been dismayed to hear the shrill slogans being put out at the Republican rallies, as well as the boos and shouts of "Traitor" and "Kill him!" Such mob manipulation scares me, not accusations of "Socialist!"

18 Oct 08 - 01:29 AM (#2468897)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

Sawz:

What is your objection to the working relationships with ACORN, anyway? As a matter of record, they flagged any names they received from their temp workers which seemed improperly listed.

Would you think it preferable that they did not go out to register voters? If so, why?

If not, how would you suggest they manage the situation where the temp workers--minimum wage at best-- brought back a percentage of improperly listed names?

A

18 Oct 08 - 01:42 AM (#2468906)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

It might make Ayers legit and it might not. I don't know. But if Obama is a terrorist by association because of his having served on that board with Ayers, then that would mean that the Annenburgs, and by extension, McCain, himself are also terrorists for having even stronger ties with Ayers than Obama. The Annenburgs put Ayers on that board, and they have contributed to the McCain campaign. So McCain is being funded by terrorist supporters.

18 Oct 08 - 01:45 AM (#2468907)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

ACORN has not done anything wrong, and they have not broken any laws.

18 Oct 08 - 02:08 AM (#2468914)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Is that a fact????..and of course, you are privy to knowing this??

There you go again......

18 Oct 08 - 02:17 AM (#2468917)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

According to the report sI have seen ACORN hired local temps tor egister voters and when ACORN received cards with unlikely names they flagged them before turning them all in, as required to do by law. They also penalized or fired the temps who pulled such stunts.

Where was the law-breaking here?

Are there ANY specific claims of fact? Or is this just another loud noise froma sinking ship?

A

18 Oct 08 - 02:36 AM (#2468922)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Are there ANY specific claims of fact? Or is this just another loud noise from sinking ship?

I guess its going to court. Amos, I would think you'd be more interested in wanting ALL the facts to come out, and if there was wrong doing, for the guilty to be brought to justice, for the good of the country..than just promoting their line of defense, no matter what the facts would turn out to be...don't you think?

I'd be more interested in the facts coming out, intact, and letting the chips fall where they fall. I'm pretty sure, you'd think that would be unreasonable, but in actuality, the truth coming out, is more important.

18 Oct 08 - 02:43 AM (#2468926)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

I just re-read my post, before this one......Has everyone fallen off their rockers?? I can not believe, that anyone even needed to post it

18 Oct 08 - 02:48 AM (#2468929)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

I am asking if there are any facts, aside from what we've already recounted on this thread.

A

18 Oct 08 - 02:52 AM (#2468932)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

I certainly hope so. I'm sure more will come out. Until then, I think it best to have an open mind, and just wait....without bias, or blockage.

18 Oct 08 - 03:22 AM (#2468941)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Even taking it to court under the circumstances is an abuse of power. When the courts are used as a way of suppressing legitimate votes in the absence of any wrongdoing, that is an illegal abuse of power.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27245181#27245181

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27245744#27245744

18 Oct 08 - 10:14 AM (#2469122)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Big Al Whittle

'Obama is a socialist......'

you should be so lucky!

18 Oct 08 - 11:07 AM (#2469159)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

Raising a false issue in the hopes of locking in public attention is a frivolous misuse of the law for political gain.

A

18 Oct 08 - 11:45 AM (#2469176)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""GfS is correct that a balance of capitalism and socialism is the best way to go. They are natural partners and should be able to work together quite effectively (as they presently do in most if not all western democracies). The endless diatribes that bounce back and forth between Left and Right are not helping things much, they are simply maintaining strife and distraction.""

Exactly what I've been getting clobbered for saying, these many years LH.

Also Capital and Labour! Neither can exist in the modern world, without the other.

The days when a man could establish a small farm, and be totally self sufficient, are over.

The socialist, who would destroy capital, has no idea of the cosequences. His hatred is based on a misunderstanding of what capital does, and what really surprises me is that some of the best educated men I know, cannot see that without capital to drive production, there would be Nothing for labour to do to earn a living.

Likewise, the capitalist who complains about the attitude of labour cannot see that without labour to DO the producing, he would have NO capital.

What is it, for God's sake, that is so difficult to understand about finding a workable balance that gives each side what it needs to be reasonably happy.

Don T.

18 Oct 08 - 12:38 PM (#2469213)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

Some things are best done by a person working in his ow her own, or with a few others, with resources they can get hold of through their own efforts. That's private enterprise.

Some things need a lot of people to work together, with resources they have to get from elsewhere. That means some kind of public enterprise, either based on a co-operative of some sort, or with the local or national elected government involved.

Or it means a corporate business model, which increasingly means the banks and the dodgy investment scheme they have set up, are in control.

There's no reason why private enterprise and public enter[rise can't exist alongside each other perfectly happily. The same can be true of corporate enterprise, but not in a dominating role.

What has happened is that people have bought into the idea that private enterprise and corporate enterprise are the same thing, and that there is no room for anything else. And what that in practice means is that corporate enterprise (ie the banks and the investment funds) dominate everything, and to a growing extent grind down real "private enterprise".

In our town we've got two places you can go to to fix a pushbike. There's a great little bicycle shop, selling and repairing, tucked away in a side street. Rapid friendly service, fix anything, chat about anything, can supply anything.

And we've also got a great big Halfords with a bike section. Nothing like as good, costs you more and takes longer to do the work. But they have a big store in a shopping centre, and lots of advertising.

Yesterday I had to take a bike in to be fixed, and of course I went to the little shop. "We're closing down in seven weeks".

Another nail in the coffin of genuine free enterprise, and a victory for corporate business.

Diatribes against socialism are picking the wrong target, and letting the real enemy get away with murder.

18 Oct 08 - 03:42 PM (#2469319)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 11:45 AM

""GfS is correct that a balance of capitalism and socialism is the best way to go.

Watch out, Don, Agreeing with me means two things...the crazies will still form lynch mobs to clobber you..and the other is..well, you might be sane, too!

Cheers!

18 Oct 08 - 07:50 PM (#2469473)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Don Firth

Hey, can someone tell me what is wrong with Hugo Chavez--other than the fact that when Bush tells him to jump, instead of saying, "Yessir, how high?" he says, "Screw you!" ?

Don Firth

18 Oct 08 - 09:22 PM (#2469530)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

There's nothing wrong with Hugo Chavez. He's reviled by the government of this country because he is an impediment to their goal of total world domination.

18 Oct 08 - 09:27 PM (#2469532)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Yeah!..China thinks so too!

18 Oct 08 - 09:27 PM (#2469534)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks

reviled by the government of this country? It seems to me that Mr. Chavez is generally treated as he deserves...which is to be ignored. And, saving your presence, to think that the US government wants to dominate the world is just silly.

18 Oct 08 - 09:54 PM (#2469561)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

It is known and documented fact that the US has been interfering in other countries' democracies for decades, getting rid of leaders who aren't willing to do our bidding, even democratically elected ones, and installing puppets who are. The government of this country has been trying to get rid of Chavez for years.

18 Oct 08 - 09:56 PM (#2469563)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

2oo!

18 Oct 08 - 09:57 PM (#2469564)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 08 - 09:54 PM

It is known and documented fact that the US has been interfering in other countries' democracies for decades, getting rid of leaders who aren't willing to do our bidding, even democratically elected ones, and installing puppets who are. The government of this country has been trying to get rid of Chavez for years.

Duh!!! Want a list?

18 Oct 08 - 10:07 PM (#2469573)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Listen, one might be tempted to think that they are preaching to someone who is an innocent on these matters, but they are not. They are, as I have said before, making a very large assumption. A perusal of my posting history would show exactly what I know and what I don't know. So quit badgering me, ok?

18 Oct 08 - 11:35 PM (#2469624)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Like you were to me?? Like I said in an earlier post, on another thread, There is a double standard. Truce? You don't nag and argue with me about every letter and period I type, and I don't 'badger'(as you say) you. How 'bout it??

18 Oct 08 - 11:39 PM (#2469626)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

I'll definitely continue to refute things that I think are incorrect. But on the subject of how the world is run, there's no point in preaching to the choir. We are not in disagreement about that. We are only in disagreement about whether or not getting Obama elected will make any difference. I think there is a possibility that it could, so I am following my conscience and debunking any BS I see being posted about him.

19 Oct 08 - 01:12 AM (#2469648)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Well Well Well.

Who paid for Obama's Harvard Ejucaition?

Pause.

Don't see no volinteers out thar so here goes.

An influential, radical black Muslim with close ties to the Saudi royal family and an outspoken opponent of Israel helped finance Obama's law school education. Obama's benefactor at the young age of 25 is Dr. Khalid Abdullah Tariq al-Mansour a/k/a Donald Warden. Here are some facts you should know about al-Mansour according to a investigative report:

* "He is well known within the black community as a lawyer, an orthodox Muslim, a black nationalist, an author, an international deal-maker, an educator, and an outspoken enemy of Israel."

* In a 1995 book, "The Lost Books of Africa Rediscovered," he alleged that the United States was plotting genocide against black Americans.

* He was the mentor of Black Panther Party founder Huey Newton and his cohort, Bobby Seale.

* Al-Mansour's more recent videotaped speeches focus on Muslim themes, and abound with anti-Semitic theories and anti-Israel vitriol.

* At the same time he was raising money for Obama's education he was representing top members of the Saudi Royal family seeking to do business and exert influence in the United States.

* He advises Prince Alwaleed bin Talal in his U.S. investments. Prince Talal is most famous for offering $10 million to the City of New York following 9/11, a contribution turned down by Mayor Rudy Giuliani because the Prince said American policies were to blame for the terrorist attacks. Prince Alwaleed has made tens of millions in contributions to Muslim-American charities, some of whose leaders have been charged by our government with terrorism-related ties. Prince Alwaleed also donates millions to Harvard for Islamic studies.

Newmax sought a response from the Obama campaign about the financial assistance Obama received from al-Mansour, but the campaign refused to respond. This disclosure came in a very unlikely fashion. Percy Sutton, a prominent African-American businessman, was being interviewed when he described how he first came to know Obama. "I was introduced to (Obama) by a friend who was raising money for him," Sutton told NY1 city hall reporter Dominic Carter. "The friend's name is Dr. Khalid al-Mansour, from Texas,"

Yelling: The campaign refused to respond? Dnag! Now theres is tha change we need fer shore.

19 Oct 08 - 01:23 AM (#2469651)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Alice

Folklore? Tales Tall And Otherwise (thread name game)

19 Oct 08 - 01:24 AM (#2469652)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks

Occam's Razor says that the simple explanation is usually the most accurate one...this is otherwise known as "keep it simple, stupid". Obama borrowed money, like most college students, and paid it back when he was able. According to Michelle Obama, as reported by FOX: "when she and her husband left law school, the monthly payments on their school loan debt was more than their monthly mortgage payment. She said they only got out of that debt when Barack Obama wrote his two books, "The Audacity of Hope" and "Dreams from My Father."

19 Oct 08 - 01:26 AM (#2469653)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Janie

Sawzaw,

Suggest you vet your sources. (And I wish others, supporters of either candidate, would do the same.)

19 Oct 08 - 01:45 AM (#2469659)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

The only place that story shows up is blogs and forums and none of them provide any documentation whatever. I guess we can put that one in the stinky circular file where it belongs.

19 Oct 08 - 02:02 AM (#2469663)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

LOL

Right wing reactionaries need to learn to get their stories straight. There's another fictional hate-mongering smear campaign going around that says Obama's education was paid for by Tony Rezko.

19 Oct 08 - 02:44 AM (#2469670)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Obama:

I am not freinds with Bill Ayres. He is just another guy in the neighborhood. "The notion that me knowing somebody who engaged in detestable acts 40 years ago, when I was 8 years old, somehow reflects on me and my values doesn't make much sense."

But:
Sen. Obama wrote a blurb for a 1997 Ayres book on the penal system. The book jacket mentioned Ayres' terrorist activities.

"Obama's review of Ayers' book says, "A searing and timely account of the juvenile court system, and the courageous individuals who rescue hope from despair

Michelle Obama chaired a panel for Ayers, and invited her husband to share the stage, to promote a program and a book by Ayers, to lower sentences and change court attitudes, toward juvenile offenders.

Ayers was an ex-officio board member and he and Obama worked closely, for years, between the Wood Fund and the CAC, to fund Ayers' pet projects, including Ayers' own Small School Project. Ayers' got lots of money for his own ideology. For 5 years Obama distributed over $100M with Ayers' help. The two of them decided who got funds and who didn't. They favored a heavily ethnic agenda, and when all the money was gone, they closed down. Annenberg's own report shows that NOTHING was achieved in the school - and indeed the money only went to external partners, to which schools had to try to attach themselves.

Ayers: Everything was absolutely ideal on the day I bombed the Pentagon. The sky was blue. The birds were singing. And the bastards were finally going to get what was coming to them.

19 Oct 08 - 02:50 AM (#2469673)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Well, Sawzaw, they did ask for sources!!....Doesn't mean they'll believe or accept it. But now that a pretty good source and proof was posted, watch them STILL be boneheaded, and act like they didn't see it...only what they selectively see and hear. That being said, still doesn't make McCain any better, either. As I've said before, as far as being president, they both would suck! Folks, we're in deep shit!

19 Oct 08 - 03:03 AM (#2469676)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Vet what? Obama's campaign refused to respond. Seems like they would quash this rumor real quick if it is only a rumor.

Why won't the Obama campaign release his thesis and Obama's college transcript like a normal presidential campaign?

There must be something in it to hide frrom the public.

19 Oct 08 - 03:07 AM (#2469678)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Hey Sawzaw..by the way...I personally want to thank you for posting what you posted.....Thank you!
Warmest regards,
GfS

19 Oct 08 - 03:07 AM (#2469679)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

LOLOL

The smell of desperation is getting quite pungent.

Writing a blurb about a book doesn't indicate anything. The book could very well be as Obama described it.

Here's a press release about the panel discussion. Pretty radical stuff...

http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/97/971104.juvenile.justice.shtml

The only place the rest of it shows up is on one blog, and in the comments section of the same blog. Neither of them provide any documentation other than the press release for the panel discussion.

19 Oct 08 - 03:08 AM (#2469681)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

The only source we have even for the idea that Obama's campaign refused to respond is from the same blogs. There's no evidence that Obama's campaign has ever even been asked about it in the first place.

19 Oct 08 - 03:10 AM (#2469682)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Nice try, though.

LOLOLOL

19 Oct 08 - 03:23 AM (#2469684)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

..and thank you, CarolC. What do you think happened to the parenting in this country, that would cause 'children' to pick up guns, and become 'predators'?..as your post indicates.

Why do you think, at this time in our history, has this become so prevalent?...(in 25 words or less)

T.V.?, Movies?,....or children left alone to be raised by their 'street peers'?.....I think we 'discussed' this problem before, remember??

And, I am not 'badgering' you, with this post. Rather, trying to point out, and underline, again, that NO ONE can replace the bonding between parents and children, while the BOTH parents run out from the home, to pursue careers, at the expense of their much needed presence, in the home, when they have younger children.....

Thank you, once again, for your post!
Regards,
GfS

19 Oct 08 - 03:33 AM (#2469685)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

My own personal opinion is that the United States has been designated by the globalists to be the breeding pool for the warrior class of the New World Order, and for that reason, the cultural milieu that is being promoted through television, film, and especially video games is promoting a culture of violence, especially among the young. That, and financial constraints cause many households to have no parent in the home for many hours of the day (mostly because the parents are working, often times at multiple jobs, just to get by), so that the major influences on those young people are the popular culture that is being promoted by the corporate media, which I have already described as being one that promotes a culture of violence.

19 Oct 08 - 03:40 AM (#2469688)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

By the way, since I notice that press release is being selectively quoted, here's the rest of it. I don't agree with the use of terminology like predator in talking about children. I agree that we should call a child a child...

'A panel at the University of Chicago debates the merits of the juvenile justice system

Children who kill are called "super predators," "people with no conscience," "feral pre-social beings"–and "adults."

William Ayers, author of A Kind and Just Parent: The Children of Juvenile Court(Beacon Press, 1997), says "We should call a child a child. A 13-year-old who picks up a gun isn't suddenly an adult. We have to ask other questions: How did he get the gun? Where did it come from?"

Ayers, who spent a year observing the Cook County Temporary Juvenile Detention Center in Chicago, is one of four panelists who will speak on juvenile justice at 6 p.m. Thursday, Nov. 20, in the C-Shop of the Reynolds Club, 5706 S. University Ave.

The panel, which marks the 100th anniversary of the juvenile justice system in the United States, is part of the Community Service Center's monthly discussion series on issues affecting the city of Chicago.

The event is free and open to the public.

Ayers will be joined by Illinois State Sen. Barack Obama, Senior Lecturer in the University of Chicago Law School, who is working to block proposed legislation that would throw more juvenile offenders into the adult system; Randolph Stone, Director of the Mandel Legal Aid Clinic at the University of Chicago; Alex Correa, a reformed juvenile offender who spent 7 years in Cook County Temporary Detention Center; Frank Tobin, a former priest and teacher in the Detention Center who helped Correa; and Willy Baldwin, who grew up in public housing and is currently a teacher in the Detention Center.

The juvenile justice system was founded by Chicago reformer Jane Addams, who advocated the establishment of a separate court system for children which would act like a "kind and just parent" for children in crisis.

One hundred years later, the system is "overcrowded, under-funded, over-centralized and racist," Ayers said.

Michelle Obama, Associate Dean of Student Services and Director of the University of Chicago Community Service Center, hopes bringing issues like this to campus will open a dialogue between members of the University community and the broader community.

"We know that issues like juvenile justice impact each of us who live in the city of Chicago. This panel gives community members and students a chance to hear about the juvenile justice system not only on a theoretical level, but from the people who have experienced it."'

19 Oct 08 - 03:57 AM (#2469693)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Fair to respond??....The problem started in the late 60's and early 70's...and yes, it began with a political agenda, to financially 'feed' the major corporations, and government, by increasing the tax base. The rest, I have posted before.....David Rockefeller, rightfully claims, to be one of the chief promoters of this agenda...

At this juncture, I'll stop, and ask you, or anyone, should I continue?

This subject, is very close to me, and I have an extreme working knowledge of it, having been in the field for decades, having written court reports, and a book on it. Wanna' go for it???

19 Oct 08 - 04:02 AM (#2469697)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

I don't particularly care one way or another, myself, but maybe if it's going to be done, a separate thread might be appropriate.

19 Oct 08 - 04:18 AM (#2469705)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Oh, It's directly related, but if you don't care, I understand...but then YOU were the one who wanted FACTS, not opinions. Nonetheless, thank you for your post, responding to Sawzaw. I thought the 'LOLOLOL' was a bit inappropriate, myself. Sorta looked as if,...never mind. Hey, anytime you want some golden info on this subject, let me know. I don't know, as I said before, if you'd accept it..but it is accurate!
Regards,
GfS

19 Oct 08 - 10:14 AM (#2469874)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks

factcheck.org has discussed the oh-so-deep relationship between Obama and Ayers, and concluded that there is more there than Obama has previously stated, but still not much. Oh course, FactCheck is also funded by that radical leftist organization, the Annenberg Foundation...

United States has been designated by the globalists to be the breeding pool for the warrior class of the New World Order? Thanks for a morning giggle.

19 Oct 08 - 10:22 AM (#2469877)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

No problem.

19 Oct 08 - 10:27 AM (#2469881)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Man, this is so friggin wierd. You can't make this stuff up:
Percy Sutton knew Al-Mansour well, since the two men had been business partners and served on several corporate boards together.As Sutton remembered, Al-Mansour was raising money for Obama's education and seeking recommendations for him to attend Harvard Law School."I was introduced to (Obama) by a friend who was raising money for him," Sutton told NY1 city hall reporter Dominic Carter. "The friend's name is Dr. Khalid al-Mansour, from Texas."Obama spokesman Ben LaBolt told Newsmax that Sutton's account was "bogus" and a "fabrication that has been retracted" by a spokesman for the Sutton family. He referred Newsmax to a pro-Obama blog published on Politico.com by reporter Ben Smith. In a September 3 blog entry, Smith wrote that "a spokesman for Sutton's family, Kevin Wardally" said that Sutton had been mistaken when he made those comments about Obama and Khalid Al-Mansour. Smith suggested the retraction "put the [Obama/Al-Mansour] story to rest for good."Wardally told Smith that the "information Mr. Percy Sutton imported [sic] on March 25 in a NY1 News interview regarding his connection to Barack Obama is inaccurate. As best as our family and the Chairman's closest friends can tell, Mr. Sutton, now 86 years of age, misspoke in describing certain details and events in that television interview."Asked which parts of Percy Sutton's statements were a "fabrication," LaBolt said "all of it. Al Mansour doesn't know Obama. And Sutton's spokesman retracted the story. The letter [to Harvard, which Percy Sutton says he wrote on behalf of Obama], the 'payments for loans' — all of it, not true," he added. Newsmax contacted the Sutton family and they categorically denied Wardally's claims to Smith and the Politico.com. So there was no retraction of Sutton's original interview, during which he revealed that Khalid Al-Mansour was "raising money" for Obama and had asked Sutton to write a letter of recommendation for Obama to help him get accepted at Harvard Law School. Sutton's personal assistant told Newsmax that neither Mr. Sutton or his family had ever heard of Kevin Wardally."Who is this person?" asked Sutton's assistant, Karen Malone. When told that he portrayed himself as a "spokesman" for the family, Malone told Newsmax, "Well, he's not."According to a 2006 New York magazine profile, Wardally is part of a "New New Guard" in Harlem politics that has been challenging the "lions" of the old guard, Charles Rangel and Percy Sutton. That makes him an unlikely candidate to speak on behalf of Sutton. Sutton maintains an office at the Manhattan headquarters of the firm he founded, Inner City Broadcasting Corporation. ICBC owns New York radio stations WBLS and WLIB. Sutton's son Pierre ("Pepe") runs ICBC along with his daughter, Keisha Sutton-James. Malone told Newsmax that she had consulted with Sutton's family members at the station and confirmed that no one knew Kevin Wardally or had authorized him to speak on behalf of the family. For someone claiming to be a "spokesman" for the Sutton family, who was authorized to call Percy Sutton a liar, Wardally even got Percy Sutton's age wrong. Sutton is not 86, as Wardally said, but close to 88. He was born on Nov. 24, 1920. Wardally responded to a several Newsmax phone messages and emails with a terse one-line comment, maintaining his statement that Percy Sutton "misspoke" in the television interview. "I believe the statement speaks for itself and the Sutton Family and I have nothing further to say on the topic," he wrote in an email. Asked to explain why it was that no one at Inner City Broadcasting Corp. knew of him or accepted him as a family spokesman. Wardally responded later that he had been retained by a nephew of the elder Sutton, who "is in our office almost every week." Wardally works for Bill Lynch Associations, a Harlem political consulting firm. The nephew, Chuck Sutton, no longer works with the elder Sutton at Inner City Broadcasting, but for a high-tech start-up called Synematics. "Percy Sutton doesn't go out idly on television saying things he doesn't mean," a well-connected black entrepreneur who knows Sutton told Newsmax. Ben LaBolt's claim that "Al Mansour doesn't know Obama" was contradicted by Al Mansour himself in an extended interview with Newsmax. Comparing the revelation of his ties to Obama to the controversy surrounding Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Al Mansour said that he was determined to keep a low profile to avoid embarrassing Obama. "In respect to Mr. Obama, I have told him, because so many people are running after him… I was determined that I was never going to be in that situation," he told Newsmax. Al Mansour said he was deliberately avoiding any contact with the candidate. "I'm not involved in any way in celebrity sweepstakes," he said. "I wish him well, anything I can do if he lets me know, I'll let him know what I think I can do or can't. But I don't collect autographs. I wish him the best, and hope he can win the election."He repeatedly declined to comment on the Percy Sutton allegations, either to confirm or to deny them. "Any statement that I make would only further the activity which is not in the interest of Barack, not in the interest of Percy, not in the interest of anyone," Al Mansour said. Sen. Obama has refused to instruct Harvard Law School to release any information about his time there as a student, or about his student loans.

19 Oct 08 - 10:44 AM (#2469893)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

"Voters may differ in how they see Ayers, or how they see Obama's interactions with him. We're making no judgment calls on those matters. What we object to are the McCain-Palin campaign's attempts to sway voters – in ads and on the stump – with false and misleading statements about the relationship, which was never very close." Factcheck link from artbrooks upthrread.

19 Oct 08 - 10:52 AM (#2469899)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

And yet, apparently someone (Percy Sutton), did make it up...

'Barack Obama's campaign is flatly denying a story told by former Manhattan Borough President Percy Sutton, who cast an ex-Black Panther turned Muslim businessman and lecturer as a key Obama mentor but whose story seems off in at least one key detail.

Sutton's story, told in what NY1 said was a March 25 interview, has been lighting up the conservative blogs for the last week.

Sutton, now in his late 80s and mostly off the public stage, told NY1's Dominic Carter that he was asked to write a letter of recommendation to Harvard Law School on Obama's behalf by a man named Khalid al-Mansour of Texas, "the principle adviser to one of the world's richest men" who was also "raising money for [Obama]."

Obama spokesman Ben LaBolt told Politico that "Obama did not know and does not know Khalid al-Mansour."

LaBolt said Obama doesn't have a relationship with Sutton and that "to our knowledge, no such letter was written." Obama was in Chicago, not New York, when he applied to Harvard.

The person to whom Sutton was apparently referring, al-Mansour, is a former Black Panther and an adviser to Saudi royalty who has produced, as Amanda Carpenter noted, some YouTube clips that would light up cable television if he's actually been close to Obama. He's also been quoted backing the Palestinian side in the Middle East conflict, though he has not been quoted supporting violence there. NewsMax's Kenneth Timmerman reported yesterday that he spoke to al-Mansour, who wouldn't comment on Sutton's story.

"Any statement that I made would only further this activity which is not in the interest of Barack," al-Mansour is quoted as saying.

Sutton's story is particularly difficult to follow at one point: that al-Mansour was "raising money" for Obama. Obama attended Harvard with the help of student loans, as the Sun-Times' Lynn Sweet reported in detail at one point, writing that he had $42,753 in debt.

I left messages for al-Mansour and for Sutton, but haven't heard back. Sutton, an eminence in Harlem politics, has not been well lately, people who know him said; I also left a message for his son.

Sutton supported Hillary Clinton in the Democratic primary and was quoted saying of Obama at the time, "We don't know the other person in this election — we've never met him."

UPDATE: I spoke to Mansour Thursday evening, who said he'd avoided directly contradicting the story out of respect for Sutton, "a dear friend, his health is not good."

But pressed, he denied all the details of Sutton's story.

"The scenario as it related to me did not happen," he said.

"I'm sure he's written a letter [to someone else] and he got it confused somehow," he said of Sutton, adding that he'd never asked Sutton to write a letter to any university supporting anyone's admission.

Mansour said he admires Obama, but first heard of him when a relative sent him a copy of Obama's 2004 convention speech.

"I've never met him," he said.'

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0908/Obama_camp_denies_Sutton_story.html

It's really not that hard to look this stuff up before making a fool out of oneself by posting garbage.

19 Oct 08 - 11:00 AM (#2469906)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

More about Obama / Al Mansour:
Newsmax contacted the Dean of Students, the Director of Student Financial Services, the Registrar, and the Bursar of Harvard Law School. None would provide any specific information on Barack Obama's time at Harvard, except for his dates of attendance (1988-1991) or his year of graduation, 1991. A spokesman for the law school, Michael Armini, said it was Harvard policy not to divulge information on alumni without their approval. "There are lots of reporters nosing around the library," he acknowledged. So far, none had turned up any new information.Law professors Lawrence Tribe and Charles Ogletree have both said publicly that they were "impressed" by Obama when he was a student.Sources close to the Sutton family told Newsmax that Percy Sutton wrote a letter of recommendation for Obama to Ogletree at Khalid Al-Mansour's request, but Ogletree declined to answer Newsmax questions about this. Harvard Law School spokesman Michael Armini said that Harvard was "very generous" with financial aid, but only on the basis on need. The Obama campaign told Newsmax that Obama self-financed his three years at Harvard Law School with loans, and did not receive any scholarship from Harvard Law School. LaBolt denied that Obama received any financial assistance from Harvard or from outside parties. "No - he paid his way through by taking out loans," he said in an email to Newsmax. At the time, Harvard cost around $25,000 a year, or $75,000 for the three years that Obama attended. And as president of the Harvard Law Review, he received no stipend from the school, Harvard spokesman Mike Armini said."That is considered a volunteer position," Armini said. "There is no salary or grant associated with it."So if the figures cited by the Obama campaign for the Senator's student loans are accurate, that means that Obama came up with more than $32,000 over three years from sources other than loans to pay for tuition, room and board. Where did he find the money? Did it come from friends of Khalid Al Mansour? And why would a radical Muslim activist with ties to the Saudi royal family be raising money for Barack Obama? That's the question the Obama campaign still won't answer. Michelle Obama speaking at a campaign event in Haverford, Pa, in April of this year, Michelle Obama claimed that her husband had "just paid off his loan debt" for his Harvard Law School education. In an appearance in Zanesville, Ohio, in February she bemoaned the fact that many American families were strapped with student loan payments for years after graduation."The only reason we're not in that position is that Barack wrote two best-selling books," she said. The first of those best-sellers netted the couple $1.2 million in royalties in 2005. In response to Newsmax questions about the Obama's college loans, a campaign spokesman cited a report in The Chicago Sun claiming that Obama borrowed $42,753 to pay for Harvard Law School, and "tens of thousands" more to pay for undergraduate studies at Columbia.The same report said that Michelle Obama borrowed $40,762 to pay for her years at Harvard Law School.But a Newsmax review of Senator Obama's financial disclosures found no trace of any outstanding college loans, going back to 2000.As a United States Senate candidate, Barack Obama was required to file a financial disclosure form in 2004 detailing his assets, income, consulting contracts, and liabilities. Obama listed "zero" under liabilities in 2004 and in all subsequent U.S. Senate financial disclosure forms.Under the Senate ethics rules, he is required to disclose any loan, including credit card debt, of $10,000 or more. The only exception to the reporting requirement is mortgage debt on a principal residence.The Senate reports also directly contradict Michelle Obama's claim that the couple had "only just" paid off their student loans after receiving book royalties paid out in 2005 and 2006 â€" well after her husband had been ensconced in the Senate.Apparently, Michelle Obama misspoke, according to the version provided by the Obama campaign. Campaign spokesman Ben LaBolt now tells Newsmax that the loans Sen. Obama took out to pay for Harvard Law School "were repaid in full while he was a candidate for the U.S. Senate [in 2004], and under the rules, the modest outstanding balance he repaid was not reportable as a liability on his personal financial disclosure reports."The Senator repaid the loans on "the expectation of a significant increase in family income" as a result of the paperback edition of his 1995 book, Dreams of My Father, LaBolt said.Obama acknowledges that sales of the hard cover edition of the book were "underwhelming." But in the spring of 2004,when Obama won the Democrat U.S. Senate primary in Illinois, Rachel Klayman, an editor at Crown Publishers in New York, read an article about Obama and became interested in his memoir, only to discover that Crown now owned the rights. She asked Obama to write a new forward, and Crown then decided to re-issue Dreams as a paperback in July 2004, just as Obama made his historic speech to the Democrat National Convention.The paperback eventually sold over one million copies, which under the standard industry royalty for trade paperbacks of 7.5%, earned him $1.2 million. However, Obama didn't report income from the book until 2005, so it's unclear how he was able to repay his student loans in 2004. Responding to attacks from the Hillary Clinton campaign during the primaries, Obama released seven years of tax returns on March 25 of this year. The returns, dating back to 2000, indicate that the couple paid no interest on their student loans. The interest from such loans would have been deductible on their joint income tax returns. For 2000 through 2004, taxpayers declared student loan interest as a deduction on line 24 of federal form 1040. After 2004, the deduction can be taken on Line 33.But the Obamas never declared a dime of interest in student loans on their return, most likely because they simply earned too much money to be able to take the deduction under the IRS rules. Obama spokesman Ben LaBolt had no answer as to why the Obamas' failed to declare the loans, stating the obvious that "because interest on the loans was not deducted, it would not appear on the Obamas' personal return."

19 Oct 08 - 11:15 AM (#2469924)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

"And yet, apparently someone (Percy Sutton)[personal opinion], did make it up.."

ApparentlyWardally is making things up.

Newsmax contacted the Sutton family and they categorically denied Wardally's claims to Smith and the Politico.com. So there was no retraction of Sutton's original interview, during which he revealed that Khalid Al-Mansour was "raising money" for Obama and had asked Sutton to write a letter of recommendation for Obama to help him get accepted at Harvard Law School.
Sutton's personal assistant told Newsmax that neither Mr. Sutton or his family had ever heard of Kevin Wardally.

Do the math. Where did the money come from?

"I donâ€™t think voters care about someone who Barack Obama barely knows and who did these things when Barack Obama was 8 years old," said Kevin Wardally, a strategist at Bill Lynch Associates.

19 Oct 08 - 11:21 AM (#2469929)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

UPDATE: I spoke to Mansour Thursday evening, who said he'd avoided directly contradicting the story out of respect for Sutton, "a dear friend, his health is not good."

But pressed, he denied all the details of Sutton's story.

"The scenario as it related to me did not happen," he said.

"I'm sure he's written a letter [to someone else] and he got it confused somehow," he said of Sutton, adding that he'd never asked Sutton to write a letter to any university supporting anyone's admission.

Mansour said he admires Obama, but first heard of him when a relative sent him a copy of Obama's 2004 convention speech.

"I've never met him," he said.'

19 Oct 08 - 11:23 AM (#2469931)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Canada Free Press:

During the early years of radical left-wing community organizing efforts, William Ayers and his father Thomas came into cooperative contact with the Black Panther's and Black Panther behind the scenes mentor Donald Warden, known today as Dr. Khalid al-Mansour, the name he took when he adopted the radical Wahabbi Muslim faith through friends in the Saudi Royal family.

In a March 2008 TV interview, former Malcom X lawyer and Harlem burough president Percy Sutton named Khalid al-Mansour as the manchurian puppetmaster behind Barack Hussein Obama. He told of how al-Mansour was raising money for the education of Barack Obama, and asked Sutton to write a letter of recommendation to Harvard University on Obama's behalf.

Politico blogger and Obama supporter Ben Smith immediately sought, received and printed a " family retraction" of Sutton's TV statements on the Politico blog. Newspapers across the country ready to run with the story of a manchurian candidate groomed by Saudi Royal family deal maker al-Mansour stopped dead in their tracks, biting on the Sutton retraction effectively manufactured by Smith in a rush to defend his candidate, Barack Obama.

However, the alleged Sutton retraction, issued by former Hillary Clinton Harlem campaign chief Kevin Wardally, turned out to be fake. When questioned about the retraction by Newsmax investigative journalist Ken Timmerman, official Sutton family representatives answered, "that neither Mr. Sutton or his family had ever heard of Kevin Wardally."

"Who is this person?" asked Sutton's assistant, Karen Malone. When told that he portrayed himself as a "spokesman" for the family, Malone told Newsmax, "Well, he's not."

Wardally refused to retract his false retraction, stating to Newsmax that, "he had been retained by a nephew of the elder Sutton, who is in our office almost every week."

Timmerman reports, "Wardally works for Bill Lynch Associations, a Harlem political consulting firm. The nephew, Chuck Sutton, no longer works with the elder Sutton at Inner City Broadcasting, but for a high-tech start-up called Synematics."

19 Oct 08 - 11:26 AM (#2469935)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Sutton may not be retracting anything, but Khalid al-Mansour said it never happened. And he ought to know.

19 Oct 08 - 11:52 AM (#2469948)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert

Not to rai8n on this very insignificant sidebar which really has nothing to do with the elction but did anyone hear McCain speaking in Virginia yesterday???

Seems that "class warfare" is the latest campaign centerpiece with Joe the NonPlumber and now McCain is saying that, as if it is evil, that Obama wants to "redistribute" income... Not so funny thing is that he is telling this to folks who who don't hear "We're going to ask the upper 5% to pay more" but the ***codified*** "We're going to take *your* money and give it to Welfare Cadillac women..."

Oh, the ol' Dixiecrats would love this version of John McCain...

B~

19 Oct 08 - 12:10 PM (#2469958)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

I also find it highly amusing that people are trying to scare voters by creating a fiction of Obama being tight with the Saudis in light of the extremely close relationship that the Bush family has had with the Saudis for years...

http://dohiyimir.typepad.com/bush-abdulah.jpg

19 Oct 08 - 12:12 PM (#2469962)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

What the class warfare people neglect to tell us, of course, is that they have been busy "redistributing" the wealth for years. Only they've been moving it from the bottom to the top instead of the other way around.

19 Oct 08 - 12:14 PM (#2469965)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

"You can't make this stuff up" (From: Sawzaw - PM Date: 19 Oct 08 - 10:27 AM)

Yes you certainly can. It's an example of a kind of Internet Folklore. Sort of quasi-political Urban Legends.

And nothing to do with this thread.

19 Oct 08 - 12:17 PM (#2469967)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

"Khalid al-Mansour said it never happened. And he ought to know."

Black Panther mentors always know everything and tell the truth don't they?

In the 1960s, when he founded the African American Association in the San Francisco Bay area, he was known as Donald Warden. According to the Social Activism Project at the University of California at Berkley, Warden, a.k.a. Khalid al-Mansour, was the mentor of Black Panther Party founder Huey Newton and his cohort, Bobby Seale.
CC chooses to believe a radical and political fixit man over the family of Percy Sutton.

19 Oct 08 - 12:20 PM (#2469970)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Robin Hood Funds ACORN

A major donor ACORN and its affiliates is the Robin Hood Foundation.

The foundation has given ACORN $821,000 consisting of a $456,000 grant in 2003 and a $365,000 grant in 2004.

The Soros Fund Charitable Foundation gave the Robin Hood Foundation a $9,859,453 community development grant in 2000.

The Robin Hood board includes Tom Brokaw of NBC News, Marian Wright Edelman, Hollywood movie mogul Harvey Weinstein, and actress Gwyneth Paltrow.

19 Oct 08 - 12:29 PM (#2469976)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Stringsinger

Democratic Socialism is practiced in Sweden, Germany, Denmark, Norway and Canada although Harper is trying to destroy that.

It's the view of the Founding Fathers of the Constitution. It's why Lincoln went to war with the South to preserve the Government.

Ronald Reagan was out to destroy the US Government by denigrating it and deregulating
all of it's offices. Since then, the Deregulation has brought us to the brink of economic
Depression No. 2.

Scary Palin's attempt at jingoism and stirring up hatred has increased the need for
Democratic Socialism in the US to protect the exploited working people and those
making less than 250,000 grand a year.

Joe the Plumber is a fraud perpetrated by the McCainiacs to dismember our democracy by favoring the rich in this country. He is not a plumber, he does not make over 250,000 grand a year and his name really isn't Joe.

19 Oct 08 - 12:34 PM (#2469978)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert

Hmmmmmmmm??? If ACORN is so evil then why has John McCain not only been supportive of it but spoken at at least one ACORN gathering???

Me thinks that some folks supposed facts just don't add up to much...

But John McCain's relationship with ACORN has nothing to do with this thread so maybe those here who have so much interest in talking about anything but the subject would like to start their own thread???

(They won't do that, Bobert, because their only goal is be as distractive as they can so they won't have to talk about the subject...)

Well, then maybe the moderators could just move their posts to a new thread which I'de be perfectly willing to start entitled "Thread Distractions"???

(Now there's an idea, Boberdz... It'd prolly hit a couple hundred in no time at all...)

B~

19 Oct 08 - 12:44 PM (#2469990)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

That's pretty funny. Percy Sutton was involved during that time in the Black liberation movement as well. He was Malcolm X's attorney. If we're going to say that we can't trust someone like al-Mansour because of his association with the Black Panther movement, we can't really position Sutton as some kind of paragon of honesty.

And al-Mansour said that he and Sutton are good friends. So that means that Sutton pals around with Black Panther mentors. So why should we believe him any more than we believe al-Mansour? I mean, shit. People are saying we can't trust Obama because he served on the board of a charity with Bill Ayers. Sutton was Malcolm X's attorney

My own opinion is that neither of these men's past associations makes them any more or less trustworthy than the other. But I think al-Mansour is in a better position to remember what he did and didn't do than a very old man who is ill, and may not be remembering things very well.

19 Oct 08 - 12:51 PM (#2470003)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks

I'm with Bobert

19 Oct 08 - 12:56 PM (#2470008)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Alice

All the organizations that collect voter registrations ARE REQUIRED to turn in every application, whether someone wrote Mickey Mouse on it or whether it is a serious and truthful application. Acorn separated the applications into the obviously not legitimate aps, the questionable aps, and the legitimate aps. They turned them in to election offices with those separations. That's normal procedure. This has become a big issue only because the Republicans have to distract voters from the real campaign issue of the economy.

19 Oct 08 - 01:14 PM (#2470027)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Not only distract voters, but also prevent them from voting.

19 Oct 08 - 02:02 PM (#2470064)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

I assume there must be some people who are actually called Mickey Mouse. How do they manage when they try to vote in the USA?

Famous names do crop up in other places. I've known two Michael Jackson, both of them, as it happens, children's entertainers. Not a good name to have if you are a children's entertainer.

Then there was a young English reporter in the Chicago streets outside the 1968 Democratic Convention ("the World is Watching"), who got grabbed up by a cop and asked for his name. He said "Winston Churchill" and was promptly done over, as a hippy-loving Limey. In fact it was his name and he was Churchill's grandson.

19 Oct 08 - 02:09 PM (#2470071)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

I just now saw the post that complains about people taking this thread off track. I don't understand. This thread was started as a part of the smear campaign against Barack Obama by the same person who has taken the thread off track. Two questions - why would anyone want to keep it on the subject of the original smear (if the one making the smear has moved on to another smear), and why would anyone not want to address the newer smears that the thread originator is now tossing around in the thread?

This makes no sense to me.

19 Oct 08 - 02:14 PM (#2470076)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Alice

Some crazy parent out there has probably named their kid Donald Duck, too.

19 Oct 08 - 07:30 PM (#2470314)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Jeez!..From all the posts, it sounds like you can NOT distinguish between fact and fiction...typical for politicos! You're all driving each other crazy..well, not too far to drive,......just a short putt!

But then some people are more interested in their opinions, or just mouthing off, rather than exchanging useful information...maybe even the truth. ....Shut up GfS!..We have absolutely NO USE for TRUTH!!!

19 Oct 08 - 07:37 PM (#2470316)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

But then some people are more interested in their opinions, or just mouthing off, rather than exchanging useful information

Yes indeed.

19 Oct 08 - 07:54 PM (#2470323)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Don Firth

From what I've seen of Newsmax (and I've checked into its background),it makes Fox News Service look like "the liberal press."

If that's where Sawzaw gets his information, then. . . .

Don Firth

19 Oct 08 - 08:27 PM (#2470341)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:37 PM

But then some people are more interested in their opinions, or just mouthing off, rather than exchanging useful information

Yes indeed.

This is Joe's reply to a post I posted, McGrath. I suggest you take him up on his generous offer!!!

Well, I thought it was pretty funny, but I can see how others might find it offensive. I'm not going to contradict the decision of the volunteer editor who deleted the message - but I think it was one of those "borderline" things that could be decided either way. I had to read it twice before I decided what to think of it. I'll be glad to send it to anybody who sends me a personal message.
-Joe@mudcat.org-

19 Oct 08 - 10:29 PM (#2470399)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Richard Bridge

Very droll McGrath, but perhaps too dry for many here.

20 Oct 08 - 04:54 AM (#2470533)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Droll, yes it was meant as satire, will a bit of the dry, at ourselves...depending if we can laugh at ourselves in the inside! It was not written with ill will, in the least!

20 Oct 08 - 07:37 AM (#2470595)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

That was a stupid joke, young Justin.

A

20 Oct 08 - 11:27 AM (#2470779)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Please point to the incorrect information from Newsmax.

The Enquirer is a bunch of Elvis is alive crap but they nailed Edwards.

Again CC chooses to believe a radical and political fixit man over the family of Percy Sutton.

If CC is correct, everybody assocaited with Obama is a liar. Ergo everything said about Obama is a lie.

And again, Do the Math. Where did the money come from?

Well well well, looks like the Obamaniacs are too busy with character attacks to deal with the actual facts presented.

20 Oct 08 - 11:31 AM (#2470787)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Obama in Dreams of my Father:

Obama says he visited the American embassy in IndonesiaIn in 1970. While waiting, he chances upon "a collection of Life magazines neatly displayed in clear plastic binders."

In one magazine, he reads a story about a black man with an "uneven, ghostly hue," who has been rendered grotesque by a chemical treatment.

"There were thousands of people like him," Obama learned, "black men and women back in America who'd undergone the same treatment in response to advertisements that promised happiness as a white person."

Obama's attention to detail is a ruse. Life never ran such an article. When challenged, Obama claimed it was Ebony. Ebony ran no such article either.

Dreams is an apt title for the book.

20 Oct 08 - 11:36 AM (#2470790)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

MCCain has endorsed ACORNS good works in the past. The wholle ACORN flap is flimflammery for political gain by a desperate campaign.

As for Sawz' fountain of miasmic nabobbery, I think it is beyond salvage.

A

20 Oct 08 - 11:41 AM (#2470794)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

My God, that is a pretty shocking accusation.

A seven year old boy reads an article in a magazine, and when he grows up and writes a book and recalls this, he gets the name of the publication wrong...

How can someone like that be fit for public office?

20 Oct 08 - 11:55 AM (#2470812)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Well, there's also the fact that both Barack and Michelle say that their education was paid for with student loans. So I guess I'm willing to believe them before I am willing to believe Percy Sutton on this one.

I see an enormous double standard being used by the person who is trying to make Obama out to be a terrorist sympathizer (or worse). This person isn't making the other people with ties to Bill Ayers, including quite a few Republicans, out to be terrorist sympathizers. This person has completely ignored all of the other people who in their daily lives have ties just as close and some even closer to Bill Ayers, including some who support John McCain and have contributed to his campaign, and is focusing exclusively on the extremely small association that Obama has had with Ayers. Perhaps this person can explain why ONLY Obama is a terrorist sympathizer because of having this association while all of the others with the same association and in some cases, even closer association, are not also terrorist sympathizers.

My own opinion is that this person (and many others apparently) is so deeply entrenched in their vicious brand of racism that the idea of having a Black president causes them to feel terrorized, and that's why they are putting this label of terrorist on Obama.

This is unfortunate. But it's time for these people to grow up.

20 Oct 08 - 12:19 PM (#2470840)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

"he gets the name of the publication wrong..." Twice

How can someone like that be fit for public office? NOT. This man's faulty memory of his background shapes his policies.

He (or someone) writes a book containing non-actual information and sells it for a profit. Maybe he can take the Amos defense of colorful writing.

I have said the we should never mention race. All it does is stir up hostility. It pokes a stick in someone's eye every time you mention if someone is black or white.

On one should vote or not vote for someone based on gender or race or accuse someone else of racism because of whom they vote for.

That in itself is racism.

20 Oct 08 - 12:23 PM (#2470844)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Alice

faulty memory?

Sheesh Saw, you have reached another benchmark in ridiculous postings.

20 Oct 08 - 12:30 PM (#2470857)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Sen. Obama has refused to instruct Harvard Law School to release any information about his time there as a student, or about his student loans.

"the fact that both Barack and Michelle say that their education was paid for with student loans. So I guess I'm willing to believe them before I am willing to believe Percy Sutton on this one."

A report in The Chicago Sun claimed that Obama borrowed $42,753 to pay for Harvard Law School, and "tens of thousands" more to pay for undergraduate studies at Columbia.The same report said that Michelle Obama borrowed $40,762 to pay for her years at Harvard Law School.But a Newsmax review of Senator Obama's financial disclosures found no trace of any outstanding college loans, going back to 2000.As a United States Senate candidate, Barack Obama was required to file a financial disclosure form in 2004 detailing his assets, income, consulting contracts, and liabilities.
Obama listed "zero" under liabilities in 2004 and in all subsequent U.S. Senate financial disclosure forms.Under the Senate ethics rules, he is required to disclose any loan, including credit card debt, of $10,000 or more. The only exception to the reporting requirement is mortgage debt on a principal residence.

20 Oct 08 - 12:31 PM (#2470858)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert

Le2ts get real here... I could say that John McCain had ties to North Vietnamese during the Vietnam War and technically I would be 100% true is making that claim...

This argument about Ayers is beyond silly... And the only reason that anyone is talking about here on this thread is because thwe socialism charge just ain't working... But as the rest of McCain's Acme Campaign Company ideas he, like Wylie Coyote will keep trying to get it to stick...

Problem is that the McCain folks ain't got much stick'um left in their tank and seems that they are down to a plumber who ain't a real plumber to try to salvage their campaign...

Fact is stranger than fiction...

B~

20 Oct 08 - 12:35 PM (#2470864)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

I accuse people of racism, not because of whom they vote for, but because of their double standards. Double standards, when they are applied to people of another race, are racist.

20 Oct 08 - 12:58 PM (#2470889)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks

Carol, to be completely fair (which is hard at times), one could also say that double standards, when applied to people with different socio-political philosophies aren't racist, but rather stupid.

20 Oct 08 - 01:05 PM (#2470899)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

But in one corner I found a collection of Life magazines neatly displayed in clear plastic binders. I thumbed through the glossy advertisements -- Goodyear Tires and Dodge Fever, Zenith TV ("Why not the best?") and Campbell's Soup ("Mm-mmm good!"), men in white turtlenecks pouring Seagram's over ice as women in red miniskirts looked on admiringly -- and felt vaguely reassured. When I came upon a news photograph, I tried to guess the subject of the story before reading the caption.

Eventually I came across a photograph of an older man in dark glasses and a raincoat walking down an empty road. I couldn't guess what this picture was about; there seemed nothing unusual about the subject. On the next page was another photograph, this one a close-up of the same man's hands. They had a strange, unnatural pallor, as if blood had been drawn from the flesh. Turning back to the first picture, I now saw that the man's crinkly hair, his heavy lips and broad, fleshy nose, all had this same uneven, ghostly hue.

He must be terribly sick, I thought. A radiation victim, maybe, or an albino -- I had seen one of those on the street a few days before, and my mother had explained about such things. Except when I read the words that went with the picture, that wasn't it at all. The man had received a chemical treatment, the article explained, to lighten his complexion. He had paid for it with his own money. He expressed some regret about trying to pass himself off as a white man, was sorry about how badly things had turned out. But the results were irreversible. There were thousands of people like him, black men and women back in America who'd undergone the same treatment in response to advertisements that promised happiness as a white person.

Sounds pretty vivid and factual to me. Remember the Water Mellon Man movie?

20 Oct 08 - 01:19 PM (#2470908)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Typo:
"On one should vote or not vote for someone based on gender or race or accuse someone else of racism because of whom they vote for."

Correction:
One should not vote for or against someone based on gender or race or accuse someone else of being a racist or a sexist because of whom they vote for.

To accuse someone else of being a racist or a sexist because of whom they vote for is in itself racist or sexist.

Personally I would like to see this race issue ended forever. But I am not going to vote for someone I believe to be a socialist regardless of race or sex.

20 Oct 08 - 01:35 PM (#2470927)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

So I guess the person smearing Obama in this thread and others (the one posting the stuff about Percy Sutton) will be writing in Ron Paul's name on election day, because all of the candidates who are running are socialists to one extent or another, and even Ron Paul has flirted with a little socialism from time to time.

20 Oct 08 - 01:36 PM (#2470928)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

THere actually was an article in the popular press at that time about an African America who bleached his skin and "passed" as white, and his observations and experiences. I remember the furor it caused, although I have no recollection of where it was published.

So, Sawz, now you have jumped over to deciding the reason is that "he's a socialist"?? Care to define what you mean by that and in what way he's more of a socialist than, say, FDR or JFK?

A

20 Oct 08 - 01:54 PM (#2470938)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

"Care to define what you mean by that and in what way he's more of a socialist than, say, FDR or JFK?"

I have posted reasons to believe he is a socialist above. I was not around to vote for FDR and I did not vote for JFK.

Now please explain how, when and where America's oil supply was cut off.

20 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM (#2471042)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

I think "socialist" in this context just means "I don't like him", the same way that "Liberal" does.

I know in other contexts it means people who believe it's necessary to take banks into public ownership, but that definition wouldn't apply these days...

20 Oct 08 - 05:08 PM (#2471136)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

The whole socialism button is a bit of a paper tiger.

"All Democratic presidential campaigns, whether desperate or confident, in good times or bad, turn populist at the end. Barack Obama's is a little different. "Quiet populism," a phrase I first saw used by Ben Smith of Politico, seems at first to be the best concise description of the Democratic nominee's recent language on the economy, with its strong commitment to rebuilding opportunity but a cool, calm, optimistic tone of national purpose.

And yet, how "quiet" can "populism" ever be? Isn't populism as we know it characterized by the forceful oppositions of, say, Al Gore's "people vs. the powerful" in the closing weeks of the 2000 campaign, or by John Edwards' "Two Americas"? Alternatively, there's a right-wing populism that sets up a dichotomy between ordinary Americans and educated "elites," currently embodied by Sarah Palin and Joe the Plumber. In his great 1995 book, The Populist Persuasion, Michael Kazin offers "the most basic and telling definition of populism: a language whose speakers conceive of ordinary people as a noble assemblage not bounded narrowly by class, view their elite opponents as self-serving and undemocratic, and seek to mobilize the former against the latter."

This is a better description of the McCain-Palin campaign, which recently supplemented its right-populist attack on cosmopolitan elites, as featured at the GOP convention, with a sudden promise to "put an end to reckless greed" and an argument that, "We have seen self-interest, greed, irresponsibility, and corruption undermine the hard work of the American people." ..."

What Obama is is a compassionate populist, not a socialist.

The difference will not be detected by those wearing blinders, but it is an important, fundamental distinction--the difference between banditry and compassion.

A

20 Oct 08 - 06:38 PM (#2471215)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

When you combine attacks on "the intellectual elite" with the rhetoric of "self-interest, greed, irresponsibility, and corruption undermine the hard work of the American people" you are getting perilously close to the mindset that propelled far-right movements to power in Europe before World War II, or which was exploited more recently by people like Le Pen or the late Joerg Haider.

20 Oct 08 - 07:23 PM (#2471248)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Justin U

Sarah Palin has accused and criticised Barack Obama of associating with terrorists.

Barack Obama was quick to make a counter remark, criticising Sarah Palin for associating with Americans.

20 Oct 08 - 07:26 PM (#2471250)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

God, Justin, it must be dark in there.

A

20 Oct 08 - 07:30 PM (#2471258)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks

And smelly.

20 Oct 08 - 07:34 PM (#2471261)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bill D

but lot of mushrooms!

20 Oct 08 - 07:35 PM (#2471263)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

Mind, when it comes to "associating with terrorists" he'd have had a point if he had said that. Some terrorists work on a bigger scale than others. "Shock and Awe" is a terrorist doctrine.

20 Oct 08 - 07:54 PM (#2471284)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Richard Bridge

Dang, Magrath, why are you so wise?

20 Oct 08 - 11:43 PM (#2471450)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

The Chicago Annenberg Challenge Board recieved $98.4 million doled out by chairman Obama with grants.

The Challenge Board contracted 45 "external" partners to work directly with the schools. These external partners included various universities, parks, and community organizations. In most cases, grant money did not go directly to the schools.

The first external partner to receive funds, approximately 175,000 dollars, was the â€œSmall Schools Workshop;â€쳌 an organization founded by William Ayers and directed by Mike Klonsky. Klonsky was the leader of the â€œNew Communist Movement,â€쳌 a Marxist-Leninist organization of the 70s and 80s with ties to the Black Panther Party. Klonsky was also a leader of the â€œSDSâ€쳌. Essentially, the first payout issued from the Challenge Board, authorized by Barack Obama, was awarded to a radical group who made no secret they were Communists with a lower-case â€œcâ€쳌. This group, led by former leaders of the Weathermen Underground Organization, became responsible for reforming the education of Chicagoâ€™s school children.

Among other external partners to receive funding was an organization called ACORN, which had received 190,000 dollars. ACORN, founded by a former member of the â€œSDSâ€쳌, Wade Rathke, is a leftist community organization with close ties to the Democratic Socialists of America. In the 1990s, ACORN heavily involved itself in the housing market by using the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 as a tool to extort banks and pressure them into making risky loans. In the 90s, ACORNâ€™s militant tactics caught national attention on several occasions when they broke into private offices, harassed bankers at their homes, and used the CRA to delay bank mergers.

Final Evaluation: The results of an August 2003 final technical report of the Chicago Annenberg Research Project by the Consortium on Chicago School Research "suggest that among the schools it supported, the Challenge had little impact on school improvement and student outcomes, with no statistically significant differences between Annenberg and non-Annenberg schools in rates of achievement gain, classroom behavior, student self-efficacy, and social competence.

Mr Ayers, Caracas Venezuela 2006 commenting on education:

"[comrade] Luis as a major asset in both the Venezuelan and the international struggle. I look forward to seeing how he and all of you continue to overcome the failings of capitalist education as you seek to create something truly new and deeply humane. Thank you, [comrade] Luis, for everything youâ€™ve done."

Who was it that failed? Capitalist education or Bill Ayers attempt at education?

Thank you, Comrade Ayers, for everything you have done.

21 Oct 08 - 03:16 AM (#2471513)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Honest question: Does Obama's 'spread the wealth' policy, does it extend to illegal aliens? and/or Has he stated a policy in regards to that? (including the borders, and the status of those illegal alens' that are here now?) Next: If this administration goes with another 'economic stimulus package' and hands out money, 250 -300 billion dollars worth, as reported, isn't this a form of the 'spread the wealth' policy,? and/or How is Obama;s claim to no 'more of the same' fit in, as being opposed to doing basically the same type thing? Another question: How does Obama stand on the North American Union, and going from the dollar to the Amero?...or is he planning to continue to pursue the same policy?

Nobody has brought this up, as far as I know. Any word on these things?
or, is it really 'more of the same' under a different name??

21 Oct 08 - 04:14 AM (#2471535)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

On the subject of the economic stimulus package they're considering now, Obama has been saying it should go toward investing in our infrastructure and not be a handout as such. And they seem to be gravitating toward that option. Several good things would come out of that... 1. new jobs would be created. 2. people would have more money to spend. 3. communities would have an influx of money from the projects and from the increase in disposable income that the people with the new jobs would have. 4. our infrastructure would be strengthened (something that is badly needed).

Here's Obama's page with his positions on immigration.

So far, I haven't heard him say anything about the North American Union. But what I have heard him say on the subject of things like that (NAFTA, for instance) is that we need to make sure that any free trade agreements we have are based on human rights considerations and environmental conditions. He is not in favor of any free trade agreements that don't require fairness and consideration for the environment. For instance, he voted against a free trade agreement with Columbia because of the problem in that country of union members and organizers being targeted for assasination, and because of the way workers are being treated in that country.

21 Oct 08 - 04:36 AM (#2471540)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

It's the Bush administration and their cronies who are milking the war in Iraq.

But the war may be brought to an end without any US politicians doing anything at all. The US is about to lose its UN mandate for being there, and the Iraqi government doesn't appear to be prepared to sign any new agreements to allow US forces to remain in that country.

21 Oct 08 - 04:43 AM (#2471543)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Justin U

And when did America ever listen to the UN CarolC ?

21 Oct 08 - 04:52 AM (#2471548)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Thank you, CarolC, for a straight answer. Covered some of them....any more?? Also, has he said anything about the broadened executive powers granted the presidency under the Bush administration, in regards to eliminating them? I think it a travesty, that it has been sidestepped by the 'press'!
Sure would be interested in hearing his stance on the North American Union, the Amero, and ..well, I think your link somewhat addressed the borders. As it is now, they are being dissolved.

21 Oct 08 - 05:47 AM (#2471567)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

The US just uses the UN for cover. Or at least it tries to. In the case of invading Iraq, there was no UN mandate for doing so. But after it invaded, it got the mandate because the US had already broken it and needed to fix it. When the UN mandate for the US to be in Iraq expires, the US will no longer have any cover for its presence there. This will make it a lot more difficult for the US government to pretend it's there for any reason having to do with what's good for the Iraqis. That could make it harder for the government to get enough support from voters and congress to be able to retain a military presence in Iraq. We'll see.

21 Oct 08 - 09:54 AM (#2471744)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks

The North American Union and the Amero, at least according to Snopes and AskQuestions.org, both seem to be things for various pundits to push on a slow day. In fact, a leading scare writer on these topics is Jerome Corsi, who is currently noted for a couple of somewhat poorly researched books on Obama. While it is nearly impossible to prove a negative, and there is the usual amount of BS in the blog-o-sphere, Obama's own Fact Sheet on Latin America gives no indication that he has any interest in a NAU, in any form.

21 Oct 08 - 10:24 AM (#2471772)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Senator Obama served as a paid director to a Chicago-area non-profit organization, the Woods Fund, from 1999 until almost 2003. Bill Ayers served with Senator Obama on the organization's board of directors.

In 2001 the Woods Fund gave a $40,000 financial aid grant to the Arab American Action Network which was co-founded by Rashid Khalidi. AAAN's president is Mr. Khalidi's wife, Mona. In 2002, the Woods Fund gave the Arab American Action Network a second gift of $35,000. Mr. Khalidi and his wife are successful fundraisers for Senator Obama.

The Arab American Action Network opposes the existence of Israel as a state, calling its founding a "catastrophe." Mr. Khalidi, the Arab American Action Network's co-founder, was also a director of the official PLO press agency WAFA in Beirut from 1976 to 1982. Khalidi's wife, AAAN President Mona Khalidi, was WAFA's English translator during that period.

While Obama and Ayers were on the board of the Woods Fund, it also made a $1,000,000 contribution to Chicago Annenberg Challenge Senator Obama chaired the CAC from 1995 through 1999.

As a state senator Obama directed $225,000 of Illinois taxpayers' money, and later as a U.S. Senator earmarked another $100,000 in federal tax money, for programs run by radical political activist and Catholic priest (now removed from his church), Father Michael Pfleger.
Pfleger is an associate of Senator Obama, Reverend Wright and of Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan whom Wright described "as one of the...giants of the African-American religious experience"

Over the past 15 years Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, Illinois, and Reverend Jeremiah Wright has received $15,000,000 in grant money from the federal government.

Wright and Farrakhan once traveled together to visit Libyan dictator, Muammar al-Qaddafi -- who was responsible for bombing an airliner over Lockerbie, Scotland, killing everyone aboard.

In December, 2007 Wright's Trinity United Church of Christ awarded Farrakhan for his lifetime "achievements. Farrakhan describes Obama as the "Messiah" Gadaffi calls Obama a Muslim brother. In 1996 Gaddafi pledged $1 billion to the Nation of Islam after meeting with Mr. Farrakhan.

NYT January 27, 1996:
Louis Farrakhan, head of the Nation of Islam, visited Libya this week to meet Col. Muammar el - Qaddafi and discussed how to "unify, mobilize and organize" American Muslims for elections in the United States this year. Colonel Qaddafi, the Libyan leader, quoted by the state press agency, said: "Our confrontation with America used to be like confronting a fortress from outside. Today we have found an opening to enter the fortress and to confront it from within.

And finally, amongst other real estate holdings, The Tinley Park Southtown Star reports that Barack Obama's former pastor will have a four-bedroom home in Tinley Park, Illinois, a southern Chicago suburb. Wright's home, which is being paid for by his church, the Trinity United Church of Christ, will include an elevator, butler's pantry, exercise room, a master bedroom with a whirlpool and a spare room for a future theater or swimming pool. The mansion is estimated to cost $1 million.

21 Oct 08 - 11:56 AM (#2471865)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: catspaw49

I have yet to figure out why anyone would bother explaining any of the above to you Sawsass. You're trapped in your little bigoted world where fear rules and now that the situation is swinging in a new direction you have made up your mind to believe only what you want even when the evidence doesn't support you.

So why bother explaining?

If only Obama was as socialistic as Bernie! But be assured Obama WILL be President. Tough shit Doodles!!!

Spaw

21 Oct 08 - 12:28 PM (#2471896)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Alice

How do you spell Mavrik?

21 Oct 08 - 01:28 PM (#2471954)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

Or "socialest". But they spelled Obama right.

21 Oct 08 - 07:03 PM (#2472258)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Joe Offer

I just listened to a very nice speech from Sarah Palin, condemning Obamas's economic ideas as "socialism," which certainly not something we want to try in today's hard times.

In response, my rather bright stepson said, "Socialism is what got us out of the last Depression."

Anybody remember how highly Ronald Reagan praised FDR?

Maybe it IS time for some wealth redistribution. Maybe it's time for McCain and Palin to stop pushing the sad, sad stories of the potential Obama-caused suffering of those poor people who earn over $250,000 a year. I earned $250,000 in one year, 1999 - and I paid a lot of taxes. I can't say I suffered then, but now I'm getting worried. Sarah doesn't have much sympathy for me now that I'm in a much lower tax bracket.

-Joe-

21 Oct 08 - 07:49 PM (#2472303)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

The FUD-button use of socialism is another paper tiger being waved around by the fear and hate crowd.

What the problem is is that our social network is falling apart largely due to the untrammeled avarice of unethical business practices used to forward simple greed.

Repairing our network is not socialism. When FDR did it it was MORE socialistic than some earlier periods (such as the Golden Age of robber barons and Tammany Hall). Hell, for that matter, the Constitution was mORE socialism than the monarchic dictatorships that preceded it.

The problem is that Manichean lizardbrains think things are either A or B, without noticing that they can be a little more A or a little more B. For example, Mister Bush is distinctly MORE fascistic than, say, Jimmy Carter or Wm Clinton were in his management style. Not to say he was an absolute fascist--just that he slid things in that direction.

There is a continuous gradient of degrees from stark extreme capitalism to stark extreme socialism, and the US has typical bounced around the middle of that spectrum.

Maybe someone should point out that the Interstate Freeway system so beloved by truckers and trippers everywhere was a socialist exercise? So was the TVA and the Manhattan Project.

A

21 Oct 08 - 07:57 PM (#2472316)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Bill Ayers:

"Kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Bring the revolution home, kill your parents"

"Memory is a motherfucker"

Ayers was a leader of the Days of Rage, a vandalism spree in Chicago in which bystanders were assaulted. To acquire false IDs needed to survive underground, Ayers confesses, "we stole wallets and purses without much concern for our victims."

"It was a risky business that could reel out of control without warning. We were trying to learn artfulness and stealth, and stealing purses was definitely from the old school. More important, these papers were unreliable, and had a short shelf life. As soon as they were reported missing, everything stopped working, and it could prove disastrous to buy a car, for example, or rent an apartment"

"We hoped to use our celebrity in the lunatic left as well as the gathering Weathermyth in the larger world to persuade others to pull back. We knew where to find a few organized groups--the Red Family and the Proud Eagle Tribe, for example, the Motherfuckers and the White Panthers--and we held several secret summits where we had the traditional frank exchange of views and hammered out some kind of new formal understanding. Only once, in a dingy basement hideout near Houston, were guns drawn, but it was based on a misunderstanding--the crazies thought Jeff Jones had said, "We can turn you shits in in D.C." when he had actually said, "We can turn you into fish in the sea"--and we laughed about it later as we passed a joint."

21 Oct 08 - 08:05 PM (#2472328)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert

Sawz,

You have become a raving idiot... The kind a guy that goes screaming theu the streets, yelling at imaginary demons, making a complete ass out of one's self...

I hope its working for you but...

...purdy embaressing for most of us to watch...

Take a few deep breaths... Go see a movie... Crack open a bottle of good aged wine but, for gosh sakes, get a hold of yourself... You are embarassing even the most Bushites of the Bushites here...

God, man, give it a friggin' rest, will ya'???

B~

21 Oct 08 - 08:07 PM (#2472333)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Justin U

Well Bobert don't forget to tell Obama about our "original" Debates thread. (After he sees his granny).

21 Oct 08 - 10:04 PM (#2472404)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

So if Ayers was such a bad guy, why are the people condemning Obama for having some associations with him in the past not also condemning all of the Republicans who have also had associations with Ayers? And more specifically, why are they not also condemning McCain for accepting money from people who had associations with Ayers?

I'd say the reason is simple. They don't give a shit about anyone's associations with Ayers. They just want to undermine our democracy by misleading voters into voting against their own economic interests. I'd say that's way more un-American than anything Bill Ayers ever did.

21 Oct 08 - 10:18 PM (#2472409)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks

Seems to me that I've seen polls that say that 65% of the voting population could care less about Professor Ayers. Count me in.

21 Oct 08 - 10:34 PM (#2472414)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Charley Noble

Sawsaz-

I'm not particularly impressed with the notes you've harvested from right-wing websites but it is depressing that some voters might take these allegations seriously. Why do you take such a keen interest in such creative research?

Charley Noble

21 Oct 08 - 10:46 PM (#2472420)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

"So if Ayers was such a bad guy, why are the people condemning Obama for having some associations with him in the past not also condemning all of the Republicans who have also had associations with Ayers? And more specifically, why are they not also condemning McCain for accepting money from people who had associations with Ayers?"

Because McCain is not directly associated with Ayers. Obama is.

First you say "people condemning Obama for having some associations with him" and then you say "They don't give a shit about anyone's associations with Ayers"

So are they condemning him or they don't give a shit?

With the exception of the Kill your parents quote, they came from his books. I don't think any right winger wrote his books.

How could Obama associate himself with this maniac?

21 Oct 08 - 11:01 PM (#2472424)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Ebbie

Perhaps because he, like most people, realizes that life is an ongoing series. What Ayers did and said 40 years ago - when Barack Obama was 7 or 8 years old - was in a very different time. A volatile, angry time when many people felt that drastic responses and solutions were needed.

What were YOU like 40 years ago? (I grant that SOME people become nastier as they age, instead of t'other way 'round.) *g*

21 Oct 08 - 11:09 PM (#2472428)
Subject: Guilt by association
From: Joe Offer

Sawzaw, the problem with the "Ayers card" is that there's no evidence at all that Obama participated in or supported or agreed with any illegal activities Ayers may have been involved in. "Guilt by association" is a desperate tactic of a losing campaign. I really thought the McCain campaign would conduct itself honorably and confront the issues, but they started acting like losers before the Republican Convention even began. Now it seems that every move they make is an act of desperation.

I think McCain is a good person and has something to say to America - and I think the same of Sarah Palin. But they're ignoring the issues and insisting on making nonissues into the central focus of their campaign, and that's a shame.

There's no evidence at all that Obama has ever supported any sort of terrorism, but McCain and Palin keep insisting that Obama "hangs out with terrorists." They're trying the same thing with their Acorn attacks, although there's no evidence of any substantial problem with Acorn other than a lawsuit about something that took place over 8 years ago - and there's certainly no evidence that Obama was involved in any wrongdoing with either Ayers or Acorn.

-Joe-

21 Oct 08 - 11:47 PM (#2472440)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

McCain took money from the Annenburgs, who are directly associated with Ayers (more closely than Obama, even). So it's ok to take money from people who are directly associated with Ayers?

21 Oct 08 - 11:49 PM (#2472442)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks

What were YOU like 40 years ago? I expect that Sawzaw was rather less than a twinkle in his future grandparents' eyes.

21 Oct 08 - 11:56 PM (#2472445)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

And I would turn that question around... how could the Annenburgs associate with Ayers? How could any Republicans at the university where he works associate with Ayers? Why is it only condemnable for the Democratic candidate for president to have that kind of association with Ayers but not all of the Republicans who have the same and some even closer association? This is a double standard, based on a cynical intent to manipulate voters into voting against their own best interests.

22 Oct 08 - 12:39 AM (#2472455)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Mr Ayers book was published in 2001, not 40 years ago.

I am sorry of reality is too much for Bobert to handle.

No Regrets
From our August 2001 issue: "Kill your parents!" urged sixties leftist Bill Ayers, whose father was the chairman of Commonwealth Edison here.

Form the book Hippie:

Bernadine Dorn, Mrs Ayers on the Manson Murders:

The "War Council" held by the Weather Underground in Flint, Michigan, in December 1969, at which he and Dohrn were key players. It was at the Flint War Council that Dohrn admonished the four hundred delegates to stop being "wimpy" and "scared of fighting," and to "get into armed struggle." Invoking the example of Charles Manson, who had killed Sharon Tate and all her houseguests in the Los Angeles hills, Dohrn declared, "Dig it. First they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them, they even shoved a fork into a victimâ€™s stomach! Wild!" She closed her speech by holding up three fingers in what she called the "Manson fork salute." Dohrn was followed by one of Ayersâ€™s friends, John Jacobs, who told the crowd, "We're against everything that's 'good and decent' in honky America. We will loot and burn and destroy." The delegates then discussed how to get weapons, make bombs, and rent "safe houses"â€"after which they broke into a nearby Catholic Church to engage in group sex.

22 Oct 08 - 01:22 AM (#2472464)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

First of all, shooting down, and smearing someone and calling him names, with an opposing side, is no way to gather information, whether or not you agree with him. I find some, and not sure, of how much, Sawzaw comments and links rather validating to some of which he is saying..whether I agree, or not. He certainly raises a validated question, that deserves better than, he is getting.

That being said, CarolC raises a GREAT question, that may not have been asked, had Sawzaw posted his post..and that is,".....how could the Annenburgs associate with Ayers? How could any Republicans at the university where he works associate with Ayers? Why is it only condemnable for the Democratic candidate for president to have that kind of association with Ayers but not all of the Republicans" .......Just Who ARE THESE PEOPLE, AND WHAT IS THEIR OVERALL AGENDA???? Seems like they got their fingers in everybody's pie!...Why???..other than what the 'press' reports, with their chosen 'tone of voice' when reporting anything on them. Maybe they are one of the 'string pullers'...favoring an agenda of 'who knows what?'

Two movies that certainly seem thought provoking, in this area, are 'Network' and 'The Candidate'...should rent wand watch both of them.
Certainly, worth considering, at this time, in our nation's history!

Regards,
GfS

22 Oct 08 - 10:35 AM (#2472760)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Let me repeat, I am not a fan of McCain and Palin but I am not going to vote for a socialist. What I am posting here is what I believe to be the truth published in newspapers and books.

If someone can prove any of it false, I will apologize and retract it.

I would not depend on movies as a reliable source. They are made to make money. There was a movie made called the path to 9/11. Has anybody seen that?

"McCain took money from the Annenburgs, who are directly associated with Ayers"

Did the money McCain took come from Ayers?

Did Ayers somehow shape the policies of the Annenbergs so as to influence McCain to hold the same policies as Ayres?

Again Obama was directly associated with Ayers, McCain was not.

By your logic Obama and McCain are equal in whatever point you are trying to make.

Exactly when, how much and for what purpose did McCain "take" Money from the Annenbergs?

22 Oct 08 - 10:40 AM (#2472766)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Alice

Obama has said repeatedly that he did not agree with the Weathermen. Ayers did not shape Obama's policies. You are just being stubborn in refusing to believe the facts.

22 Oct 08 - 11:05 AM (#2472787)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bill D

"...I am not going to vote for a socialist."

There are no 'socialists' running. There is only a label being tossed about in a desperate attempt to smear Obama by imaginative stretches of a few of his words.

"share the wealth" can mean many things. Obama explained clearly what HE meant by it, and it was NOT socialism.

(folks are already taking the next step and insinuating Obama is on the verge of Communism....sheesh!)

22 Oct 08 - 11:18 AM (#2472799)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Alice

McCain once said on the Chris Matthews show that the wealthiest should pay more taxes.

22 Oct 08 - 11:27 AM (#2472807)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

Kinda depends on your definitions, there, Sawz. Did you vote for Bush? I am guessing the answer is yes. Probably twice. He sponsored the biggest expenditure of government money --tax money-- in history to prop up the failing economy. Pretty socialist, I would say.

A

22 Oct 08 - 12:20 PM (#2472843)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

The special thing about the Mudcat is that it provides a place where you can have arguments with people, but knowing that behind the disagreements there is a shared love of the music.

That can help keep disagreements on a relatively level keel. Not always. but compared to other forums, which are liable to be either vicious, or moderated into somnolence. That shared love of the music makes all the difference.

I note that Sawzaw seems never to have made made a single post to the musical side of the forum, under that name anyway. I'm not in the least surprised.

22 Oct 08 - 12:23 PM (#2472847)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bill D

Yup...ever since Google found us several years ago, folks have been popping in here after finding the BS section thru some search, and noting it was 'relatively' free posting, and lots of topics.

That guy who invented the WWW sure has a lot to answer for... *wry grin*

22 Oct 08 - 04:35 PM (#2473076)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Don Firth

Yes, there is quite a number of people with pretty extreme viewpoints that tend to pop in prior to elections. Some post as guests, some actually join. Vociferous in their political comments (often very extreme), but you never see their handles in threads above the line, and they usually disappear after election day.

Are they here because they are interested in folk music? Not so one would notice.

Don Firth

22 Oct 08 - 05:18 PM (#2473135)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bill D

That pesky 'Texas Guest' finally joined! I think it took him a couple of years to decide we were safe, if crazy. I think he feels at home.

22 Oct 08 - 05:20 PM (#2473138)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Donuel

here here an official welcomt to Tex.

Is ther anything wrong for Obama to be a Socialite?

22 Oct 08 - 05:20 PM (#2473140)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

If Obama is so wise, how could he ever have associated himself with Bill Ayers? Or Rev Wright or Rezko? If he is not a socailist, why was he a member of New Party?

After allegations surfaced in early summer over the 'New Party's' endorsement of Obama, the Obama campaign along with the remnants of the New Party and Democratic Socialists of America claimed that Obama was never a member of either organization. The DSA and 'New Party' then systematically attempted to cover up any ties between Obama and the Socialist Organizations. However, it now appears that Barack Obama was indeed a certified and acknowledged member of the DSA's New Party.

Scrubbed page From the New Party Website October 1996:

Running to Win : The Key Races
New Party members are busy knocking on doors, hammering down lawn signs, and phoning voters to support NP candidates this fall. Here are some of our key races:

Arkansas: The Little Rock New Party has a full slate of candidates up for election in November. LRNP steering committee member Michael Booker is running unopposed for re-election to the Arkansas State House. Two NP members - Paul Kelly and Genevieve Stewart - are running for at-large (city-wide) city council positions. And in a head-to-head battle between the New Party and the conservative right, NP member Jayne Cia faces the Arkansas state chair of Empower America (Jack Kemp and Bill Bennett's organization) for a Justice of the Peace (county board) position.

Illinois: Three NP-members won Democratic primaries last Spring and face off against Republican opponents on election day: Danny Davis (U.S. House), Barack Obama (State Senate) and Patricia Martin (Cook County Judiciary).

22 Oct 08 - 05:25 PM (#2473148)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

The Democratic Socialists of America Present
       The First Chicago Town Meeting on Economic Insecurity

               EMPLOYMENT AND SURVIVAL IN URBAN AMERICA
         a discussion of policy, problems, and possibilities

                                 with

                        WILLIAM JULIUS WILSON,
Director, Center for the Study of Urban Inequality at the University
                              of Chicago

                           MICHAEL DAWSON,
       Professor of Political Science, University of Chicago

                            BARACK OBAMA,
          Candidate, State Senate, 13th Legislative District

                         TONI PRECKWINKLE,
                         4th Ward Alderman

                           JOSEPH SCHWARTZ,
          Professor of Political Science, Temple University

                        SUNDAY, FEBRUARY 25TH
                               7:00pm
                   Ida Noyes Hall, Cloyster Club
                     1313 E. 59th Street, Chicago

Sponsored by:
*University of Chicago Democrats
*Chicago Democratic Socialists of America
*University of Chicago Democratic Socialists of America

For more information call:

University of Chicago Democratic Socialists, 312-955-6371

22 Oct 08 - 05:37 PM (#2473161)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Chicago Democratic Socialists of America Endorsements in the March 19th Primary Election

Barack Obama

Barack Obama is running to gain the Democratic ballot line for Illinois Senate 13th District. The 13th District is Alice Palmer's old district, encompassing parts of Hyde Park and South Shore.

Mr. Obama graduated from Columbia University and promptly went into community organizing for the Developing Communities Project in Roseland and Altgeld Gardens on the far south side of Chicago. He went on to Harvard University, where he was editor of the Harvard Law Review. He graduated with a law degree. In 1992, he was Director of Illinois Project Vote, a voter registration campaign that made Carol Moseley Braun's election to the U.S. Senate much easier than it would have been. At present, he practices law in Judson Miner's law firm and is President of the board of the Annenberg Challenge Grant which is distributing some $50 million in grants to public school reform efforts.

What best characterizes Barack Obama is a quote from an article in Illinois Issues, a retrospective look at his experience as a community organizer while he was completing his degree at Harvard:

"... community organizations and organizers are hampered by their own dogmas about the style and substance of organizing. Most practice ... a 'consumer advocacy' approach, with a focus on wrestling services and resources from outside powers that be. Few are thinking of harnessing the internal productive capacities, both in terms of money and people, that already exist in communities." (Illinois issues, September, 1988)

Luckily, Mr. Obama does not have any opposition in the primary. His opponents have all dropped out or were ruled off the ballot. But if you would like to contribute to his campaign, make the check payable to Friends of Barack Obama, 2154 E. 71st, Chicago, IL 60649. If you would like to become involved in his campaign, call the headquarters at (312) 363-1996.

22 Oct 08 - 05:38 PM (#2473164)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

The NP's [New Party] political strategy is to support progressive candidates in elections only if they have a concrete chance to "win". This has resulted in a winning ratio of 77 of 110 elections. Candidates must be approved via a NP political committee. Once approved, candidates must sign a contract with the NP. The contract mandates that they must have a visible and active relationship with the NP.

22 Oct 08 - 05:54 PM (#2473172)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bill D

"how could he ever have associated himself with Bill Ayers? Or Rev Wright or Rezko?"

Because finding out Ayers background was not an ISSUE when they were both on that board together. He didn't 'hang out' with Ayers....he did not even 'associate' with Ayers in the sense the slimers are trying to portray it.

Rev. Wright married the Obamas, and was just a nice preacher to them for many years. He didn't 'choose' Wright based on his extreme statements, and he disavowed those when he realized what had been said...(he was **NOT** in church the day that famous statement was made.)
Rezko: He met Rezko before there was a problem...then...

"U.S. Sen. Barack Obama expressed regret late Friday for his 2005 land purchase from now-indicted political fundraiser Antoin "Tony" Rezko in a deal that enlarged the senator's yard.

"I consider this a mistake on my part and I regret it," Obama told the Chicago Sun-Times in an exclusive and revealing question-and-answer exchange about the transaction.

In June 2005, Obama and Rezko purchased adjoining parcels in Kenwood. The state's junior senator paid $1.65 million for a Georgian revival mansion, while Rezko paid $625,000 for the adjacent, undeveloped lot. Both closed on their properties on the same day.

.....

""With respect to the purchase of my home, I am confident that everything was handled ethically and above board. But I regret that while I tried to pay close attention to the specific requirements of ethical conduct, I misgauged the appearance presented by my purchase of the additional land from Mr. Rezko," Obama said.

"It was simply not good enough that I paid above the appraised value for the strip of land that he sold me. It was a mistake to have been engaged with him at all in this or any other personal business dealing that would allow him, or anyone else, to believe that he had done me a favor," the senator said. "

22 Oct 08 - 06:28 PM (#2473189)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

22 Oct 08 - 06:47 PM (#2473204)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

I didn't say he hung out with Ayers. I said he associated with him and he should have had better judgment. He should have had higher standards. More smarts. Evidently political ambition is more important to him than personal standards.

If someone hosts a party for you to introduce politically, that is an association.

It you sit on a board with someone for years, that is an association.

Bill Ayers quote: "guilty as hell, free as a bird"

22 Oct 08 - 07:01 PM (#2473209)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bill D

"It you sit on a board with someone for years..."

An **irrelevant** association to the issue at hand. ...except for those who want careless listeners to FORM a different idea of its relevance. If the story were that Obama had refused to serve on a nice, friendly community board because some guy he didn't like was on it, they'd be playing THAT up as a fault.

Face it...if Obama mentioned which toothpaste he used, someone would be looking for problems with the manufacturer!

22 Oct 08 - 07:09 PM (#2473216)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

Why isn't Obama being denounced for sitting on a board with all those Republicans? I mean if you're looking for people who have really done serious damage to America...

22 Oct 08 - 08:01 PM (#2473279)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,number 6

By the end of next week I'm sure he'll be labeled a communist.

biLL

22 Oct 08 - 08:04 PM (#2473284)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,number 6

... and by the end of next week someone will say their brother-in-law's neighbour saw McCain at a back yard pig roast with some guy who was rumoured to be a member of the KKK.

biLL

22 Oct 08 - 08:11 PM (#2473288)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,TIA

"First of all, shooting down, and smearing someone *** and calling him names *** , with an opposing side, is no way to gather information, whether or not you agree with him."

Names like "Oblabbo" perhaps?

22 Oct 08 - 10:33 PM (#2473372)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Ebbie

Sawzall, I'm sure you must have really impressive stuff about Obama somewhere but in the meantime, 'al Quaeda endorses McCain' trumps you. lol

23 Oct 08 - 12:42 AM (#2473421)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: catspaw49

Tell ya' Sawsass, your reputation is deep in the shit simply because you have joined here. Your rep may already have been savaged beyond hope.

See, I was a member of the SDS and the SSOC at the same time as Ayers and am still a card carrying member of that diabloically radical lefty group, the ACLU. Even worse though, I actively protested the friggin' war and did Federal time at Petersburg for refusing induction. How can you afford to be associated with me? You will have to admit to one and all that you consort with radical elements who tried to destroy the lawful government of this country.

Man, you need to get your ass outta' here and claim you never heard of the Mudcat Cafe!

Spaw

23 Oct 08 - 03:27 AM (#2473451)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 22 Oct 08 - 08:11 PM
"First of all, shooting down, and smearing someone *** and calling him names *** , with an opposing side, is no way to gather information, whether or not you agree with him."
Names like "Oblabbo" perhaps?

You mean his name isn't 'Oblabbo'???..Oh my!!!

Once again, you're looking for that old lame axe to grind.

Yes, I meant every word of it.. both times.

Perhaps you can't distinguish between exchanging thoughts and ideas, and....never mind, I don't want to give you the definition, or concept of a thought.....

23 Oct 08 - 10:50 AM (#2473742)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Whatever it takes:

Obama Tweaks Tax Plan to Rebut McCain

ABC News

Facing criticism from John McCain that his tax plan constitutes "welfare," Barack Obama recently added a work requirement to one of his proposals.

"They started saying this was welfare," said Obama adviser Austan Goolsbee. "So, just so they would absolutely not be able to say that, we decided that for the last two percent we'll simply add a work requirement."

Goolsbee discussed the change to Obama's universal mortgage credit while debating McCain adviser Douglas Holtz-Eakin at the Council on Foreign Relations on Tuesday.

The purpose of Obama's 10 percent universal mortgage credit is to aid taxpayers who do not itemize when filing taxes. The Obama campaign estimates that it would provide an average of $500 to 10 million homeowners, the majority of whom earn less than $50,000 per year.

Goolsbee referred to the number of non-working Americans who would benefit from the original understanding of Obama's plan as an insignificant "sliver" when compared to the much larger number of working Americans who would benefit from Obama's plan.

Although the number of non-working beneficiaries would have been just a "sliver" under the original understanding of Obama's plan, Goolsbee said the Democratic nominee's economic team decided to add a work requirement to it in order to block McCain from being able to characterize any aspect of his plan as "welfare."

"When did this change? I'm just curious," an incredulous Holtz-Eakin asked Goolsbee.

"About two weeks ago," replied Goolsbee, adding that when the proposal was announced in September 2007, 98 percent of its benefits went to workers.

The work requirement on Obama's universal mortgage credit was never announced publicly, prompting Holtz-Eakin to suggest that it was just made up for purposes of the CFR debate.

"I think they just made it up," Holtz-Eakin told ABC News. "They will say anything in the moment. This is like trying to pin Jello to the wall."

During a Tuesday conference call with reporters, Holtz-Eakin mocked Goolsbee's claim that Obama could have changed his plan two weeks ago in response to McCain attacks that did not start until after Obama met with Joe "The Plumber" Wurzelbacher nine days ago.

"What we saw today was just another example of the Obama campaign being willing to say potentially anything in order to avoid the tough questions of the moment," said Holtz-Eakin............

23 Oct 08 - 11:03 AM (#2473761)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

WHat a crock.

A

23 Oct 08 - 11:55 AM (#2473808)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,number 6

"spreading the wealth around"

both parties could take a large proportion of the ridiculous amount of money they are spending on advertizing and 'spread that wealth around", instead of it going into directly into the pockets of those big marketing corporations.

biLL

23 Oct 08 - 02:00 PM (#2473934)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Richard Bridge

I think I made the point above, but it seems our resident bigot did not get it.

Socialism is an essentially decent creed in which we collectively care and support for the less able.

Capitalism is an evil one, in which we exploit them.

It is as simple as that.

Socialism is good.
Welfare is good.

23 Oct 08 - 02:05 PM (#2473941)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

Welfare n. Satisfactory state, health and prosperity, well-being, maintenance of members of community in such condition, esp, by statutory procedure or social effort... (Concise Oxford Dictionary)

23 Oct 08 - 02:32 PM (#2473964)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: PoppaGator

Deja vue:

Early today I responded in another thread to the ridiculous McCain objection to Obama's universal mortgage credit proposal on the basis that it would constitute "welfare" for some imagined human parasites.

Guess I'll have to repeat myself, but more briefly this time:

PEOPLE WITH MORTGAGES ARE WORKING PEOPLE. Even in cases of the laxest and most predatory sub-prime lenders, the home buyer HAS to have had some source of income at the time of closing.

I'm surprised and a little disappointed that the Obama camp felt a need to respond to such an absolute absurdity by "adding a work requirement." Of course, it's a meaningless concession ~ it's not like the situation would EVER arise that such a requirement would have to be invoked.

23 Oct 08 - 05:50 PM (#2474155)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,TIA

Funny how the target knew exactly who the target was.
Now that was a scalpel (not an axe).

23 Oct 08 - 10:05 PM (#2474360)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Tia, you're small and grasping at straws.

23 Oct 08 - 10:31 PM (#2474372)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: dick greenhaus

Y'know any tax system--including elimination of all taxes--is somehow redistributing wealth.

23 Oct 08 - 10:32 PM (#2474373)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: TIA

Actually, TIA is quite large, and seated on an oaken chair drinking from a pewter cup at the moment. But within reach, he (or is it she?) does have some of those bendy straws, and just one of those solid twirly ones with all the loops.

Ahhhh.......

23 Oct 08 - 10:44 PM (#2474387)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

From: TIA
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 10:32 PM

Actually, TIA is quite large, and seated on an oaken chair drinking from a pewter cup at the moment. But within reach, he (or is it she?) does have some of those bendy straws, and just one of those solid twirly ones with all the loops.

Figures!

A legend in his own wine!

23 Oct 08 - 10:55 PM (#2474395)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: TIA

Wow, that's a big pewter cup.

23 Oct 08 - 11:38 PM (#2474420)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Bragging?..or complaining??

24 Oct 08 - 02:19 PM (#2475080)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Amos this is a crock isn't it:

"They started saying this was welfare," said Obama adviser Austan Goolsbee. "So, just so they would absolutely not be able to say that, we decided that for the last two percent we'll simply add a work requirement."

24 Oct 08 - 03:50 PM (#2475171)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

As dick said, all taxation is about distributing wealth.

If people don't have money they can't spend money. If people can't spend money the whole money-based economy collapses.

Leave aside issues like caring about how people survive, because those things maybe aren't too important to the kinnd of people who complain about "welfare". But they should care about the economy going down the pan, from their own point of view.

24 Oct 08 - 05:26 PM (#2475237)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

Sawz:

Why?

A

24 Oct 08 - 06:02 PM (#2475286)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Stringsinger

Sawzaw, there is no politician today in the US government who is a pure socialist.
They all believe in some form of capitalism either by supporting small business and entrepreneurial activity.

Only the Sarah Palin's of today throw the word "socialist" around to denigrate Democrats.
She doesn't know what the word means. Do you?

The 9 Communists who support Obama say nothing about his political ideology which
includes private enterprise (not a socialist ideology).

McCain is being endorsed by Osama bin Laden. Does that make him a terrorist?

Frank

24 Oct 08 - 07:03 PM (#2475352)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Little Hawk

If by some miracle Obama does turn out to be a "socialist", I only hope that he will remain one after he's elected! ;-) Christ knows, socialism needs all the help it can get down there in FantasyLand USA.

24 Oct 08 - 07:07 PM (#2475357)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

I suppose it's an example of the same process by which taboo swear-words lose their power as people use them more freely, so they move on to something stronger. (I won't give examples, because I think we've got to a stage where it's time to go in the opposite direction, so far as swear-words are concerned.)

The word "liberal", after being misused in American politics as a demonising insult word for year in and year out, has lost some its power to wound. Possibly it may even have occurred to some listeners that they live in a country which had always prided itself since its foundation as being a "liberal democracy".

So a totally inappropriate word gets plucked out of the air and used to replace or supplement it. "Socialism" is a word that is identified as a bad thing in the USA - so "Socialist" is the label to apply to Obama, regardless of the fact that there is absolutely nothing "Socialist" about his politics. (The more appropriate term might be "Liberal Conservatism" or possibly "Conservative Liberalism.)

It's rather similar to the way the word "Muslim" has been used - if a word has associations that many Americans don't like, that's the one to use, regardless of the fact that it is totally inappropriate.

24 Oct 08 - 08:04 PM (#2475426)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Donuel

Obama could just as easily be a Republican. One some issues he is to the right of McCain, such as calling for the US to defend Afghanistan against Pakistan who is using the Taliban by proxy to control tribal areas.

Obama would be a William Buckley kind of conservative. Buckley worked to get the demogogues, nut bags, John Birches, anti Semites and other fringe secessionist types out of the Republican Party. That is the kind of Republican Obama could be, minus the voodoo economic plan that has finally gone full course to the bottom.

Obama can also be a FDR socialist. In other words, Barack is so temperate and deliberate in his decision making that he is not an ideolog for any party whatsoever.

24 Oct 08 - 08:05 PM (#2475428)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

In propaganda terms, that sort of thing is known as "newspeak".

24 Oct 08 - 08:08 PM (#2475431)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

crossposted

25 Oct 08 - 01:37 AM (#2475596)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Bobby Rush, co-founder of the Black Panther Party, endorses Obama

The Black Panthers literally burst onto the American scene with their now famous "shotgun" invasion of Sacramento, Calif. Legislative session. Legions of words have been written about this event already, but it quickly became a topic of discussion during this writer's visit with Bobby Rush as we delved into what he termed the "return to the original vision."

"The invasion," Rush stated, "was a military act for political reasons."

Rush insisted that the Panther Party was organized to fill a political void at the "grass roots" level. And the "invasion" of the California capitol was designed to capture the minds of Black people and make them aware of both the Panthers and what Black people could opt to do if they chose. At the same time Rush states the "invasion" was designed to make Black people aware of the fact that the system was bent on disarming the Black community.

25 Oct 08 - 01:40 AM (#2475599)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Amos:

You said it was a crock and I am agreeing with you that for Obama to change his policies on the run and say anything to get elected is a crock. Real chameleonship.

25 Oct 08 - 01:49 AM (#2475605)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

As I've posted before, a Capitalist/Socialist balance works. Either one, out of balance, doesn't!

Speaking of Obama endorsements....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfvE-P--2Zw

25 Oct 08 - 02:15 AM (#2475614)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Ooops, typo and additional info...

From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 02:12 AM

From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 01:37 AM

Bobby Rush, co-founder of the Black Panther Party,

You mean, Bobby Seale. Bobby Rush is an R/B singer, another is a congressman.

25 Oct 08 - 07:54 AM (#2475728)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: john f weldon

Remember Garrison K's jokey song of 6 yrs ago: "We're all Republicans Now."? Looks like in 2008, they're all socialists now!

George Bush, John McCain, and now (gasp!) Allan (oops-I-was-wrong) Greenspan??!!!!??

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/docudrama/2008/10/24/ayn-rand-devotee-says-greenspans-philoshopy-not-anything-resembling-a-free-mar

25 Oct 08 - 03:10 PM (#2475984)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

I am wrong. you are right. I apologize.

It is Bobby Rush, former member of the Marxist/Maoist Black Panther Party, that endorses Obama, not Bobby Seale.

25 Oct 08 - 03:17 PM (#2475989)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Rashid and Mona Khalidi became close friends of Barack and Michelle Obama during the time when both Barack and Rashid taught at the University of Chicago (1992-2003). At a lavish farewell party for Khalidi in Chicago in 2003, when Khalidi left his prestigious position at the University of Chicago for an even more prestigious one at Columbia University in New York, Obama gave Khalidi a glowing eulogy. He said that he and his wife Michelle had been frequent dinner guests of the Khalidis, and that the Khalidis had frequently babysat for the Obama children. According to a Los Angeles Times account based on a video of Obama's speech, he added that "his many talks with the Khalidis, . . .had been 'consistent reminders to me of my own blind spots and my own biases. . . . It's for that reason that I'm hoping that, for many years to come, we continue that conversation-a conversation that is necessary not just around Mona and Rashid's dinner table,' but around 'this entire world.'"

Obama's assistance to the Khalidis, however, went beyond mere kind words at a farewell party. In 2001 and again in 2002, Obama, in his capacity as a member of the board of directors of the Woods Fund, voted to give the Arab-American Action Network co-founded by Rashid and Mona, and directed by Mona Khalidi, $75,000 in grants.

Rashid and Mona Khalidi anticipated Obama's generosity to AAAN by holding a fundraiser in their house for Obama's unsuccessful run for Congress in 2000. It would seem that it later proved to be a profitable event for the Khalidis

Rashid Khalidi was the director of the PLO's press agency WAFA from 1976 to 1982, at a time when the PLO was conducting a massacre of 37 Israeli civilians in a bus on Israel's coastal road, the brutal murder of a four-year-old Israeli girl in Nahariya, and numerous other terrorist killings of Israeli civilians. The PLO was also waging a brutal war against the Lebanese Christian community during this period, and carried out numerous massacres of Lebanese Christians; the worst of these was the killing of about 500 people in the village of Damour.

During this same period, Rashid's wife Mona Khalidi was an English translator for WAFA. Rashid Khalidi is now an advocate of a "one state solution" for all of "Palestine" - meaning the destruction of Israel and its replacement by an Arab state. Asaf Romirowsky and Jonathan Calt Harris, in an article in the Washington Times on July 9, 2004, summarized Rashid Khalidi's views about Israel this way: "[His] extremism comes out when he calls Israel an 'apartheid system in creation' and a 'racist state' that 'brainwashed' Americans do not understand. Jerusalem, with its Jewish majority since the 1880s, he deems 'an Arab city' whose control by Israeli 'foreigners' is 'unacceptable.' And so on." Khalidi also accuses Israel of "ethnic cleansing."

In 1995 Rashid and Mona Khalidi co-founded the The Arab-American Action Network, a virulently anti-Israel organization that strongly supports the Palestinian Arab terrorist movement. It regards the creation of the state of Israel as a "naqba" ("catastrophe" in Arabic).

Mona Khalidi served as the group's President from its inception until some time this year, although she is now listed only as a member of its board of directors.

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.1566/pub_detail.asp

25 Oct 08 - 05:46 PM (#2476056)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Obama And Radical Backers Threaten America
2008-10-23 Harrisonburg Daily News, William Becker

CANDIDATES FOR PUBLIC office, like most of us, are the cumulative products of the influences of people they meet and the books they read. The books include such diverse resources as the Bible to the "Rules for Radicals," which brings us to Saul D. Alinsky and Barack H. Obama.

Obama's collegiate activities, campus affiliations and the other particulars of his student years continue to remain a closely guarded secret. His Chicago days surely clarify any uncertainty as to whether or not he read about the propagation of social change through grassroots organization and intimidation as recommended by Alinsky.

To further foster the class warfare paradigm, add the cumulative effect of 20 years in Rev. Jeremiah Wright's sanctuary. At the very least, the senator's grasp of biblical truth has been seriously degraded by Wright's "Black Liberation Theology."

This victim-based false gospel has its roots in Latin America. Blended with a Marxist twist, it has been the bane of traditional Catholicism in the Southern Hemisphere for decades. The Chicago version espoused by Wright packages this unbiblical theology with class warfare and anti-Americanism to stir up the faithful and mobilize them for grassroots action.

ACORN, which endorses Obama, and Alinsky, however, should make news headlines this week. Alinsky, one of Obama's most influential mentors, begins his treatise "Rules for Radicals," strangely enough, on page three, with a biblical quotation from Job – "The life of man upon earth is a warfare" — and then follows it up on page 29 by advising, "the third rule of the ethics of means and ends is that in war, the end justifies any means."

This is a relativistic restatement of a premise of one of the author's favorite icons, Karl Marx, who, with F. Nietzsche, were his chief tutors. Is it any wonder that 14 states and the FBI are now conducting investigations into major voter registration fraud perpetrated by this radical group, which was the beneficiary of $830,000 from Obama's campaign?

Further connecting the dots brings us back to an ACORN affiliate, Obama's first laboratory for honing his organizational skills with grant funds, which were redirected from educational reform to grassroots mobilization of like-minded radicals committed to revolutionary change and thoroughly brainwashed by Alinsky. Is it difficult then, to see how this Marxist maxim "the end-justifies-any-means" will logically produce thousands of fraudulently secured voter registrations in more than a dozen states by none other than ACORN? Dishonesty will surely lead sub-prime mortgage applicants to misrepresent the facts when seeking a mortgage loan.

To complicate the mix further, add the corruption in the halls of congress. Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., announcing a while ago that the banking system was strong and Sen. Chris Dodd, securing a sweetheart mortgage from Countrywide just prior to its demise, must be held accountable, along with Sen. Obama, for their roles in the most devastating financial debacle in our lifetime.

The class struggle between the "haves" and the "have nots" is featured prominently in "Rules for Radicals." Heroes of the movement included men like Rousseau and Lenin. Genuine contempt for the rule of law is reflected in Rousseau's statement that "law is a very good thing for men with property and a very bad thing for men without property." Lenin's famous April Thesis disclosed his philosophy, which stated, "they have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns then it will be through the bullet." Under this scenario it becomes easy to take from Joe the Plumber and redistribute to Tom, Dick and Harriet.

Obama and ACORN now fight with the ballot. Their end in this warfare justifies any means, including hoodlums intimidating lenders, fraudulent mortgage applications by the thousands, voter fraud in 14 states and the gross distortion of their stated objectives. The "bullets" of change will come later if and when they have achieved a veto proof majority in the Senate, control of the House of Representatives and possibly occupy 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

Remember, as it has often been said, "great oaks from little acorns grow." This ACORN has already taken root and its branches are now choking off the integrity of the ballot box. This will surely threaten the sanctity of the life and actual existence of our beloved America.

25 Oct 08 - 06:03 PM (#2476070)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Greg F.

Where do you even FIND this worthless shit? and more importantly, don't you have anything better to do than play with it and smear it all over yourself?

25 Oct 08 - 07:25 PM (#2476117)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

JEsus, Sawz, you should be ashamed for fowarding such crap--that's worse than anything I ever put in the Bush thread!! LOL!!

A

26 Oct 08 - 02:21 AM (#2476261)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Ok, as many of you know, I've been reluctant to think either of the two candidates are worth the attention, that they have mustered up. However,
I've been leaving a little window open, to be persuaded by either one, one way or the other. Before McCain was nominated, I actively routed against him, for being a phony, to his stated ideals. I actually routed for Obama to win the nomination, just so Hillary would disappear into one of the lesser footnotes of history. I've stated my position on here, and was very clear about it, and as we all exchanged posts, some people, of both persuasions, shared either their facts, rumors, accusations, talking points, et al, along with their rebuttals, with each other. For a while, I reserved comment about either one, in hopes that, perhaps, there would be some, just some tidbit, that would tip it, one way or the other. Being open, also put me into a position of being very objective, because there have been so many allegations, and outright lies, from both sides,..well, you just can't believe either one, till something solid panned out. Personally, I preferred the lesser candidates, that the 'news' media absolutely fails to cover.

HOWEVER, something happened yesterday, that I thought I'd share, that may, or may not, interest you. It is true, and I have several personal eye witness accounts of it.

Friday, our cabinet maker, decided to go, with his family, to a neighboring town, of Durango, Colorado, to attend a McCain 'rally', on the high school grounds. Today, when he came by the house, to bring some stuff for the kitchen trim.
I asked him how it was.
He said it was 'great', so on and so forth.
Then he added, 'There were a lot of protesters there, too'.
I asked, 'Well, how was that?'
He replied,'They were nasty!'
'Nasty?'
He replied,'Yeah,they were blocking the streets,screaming everything
from the vicious, to the obscene'...and he proceeded to tell me some details about them, including wearing bandannas, and hooded masks over their faces, and in general, just being frenzied punks.

Well, I figured, 'Aw, that's just his perspective, being as he is a McCain supporter, so I didn't give it too much mind, being as both sides punctuate the foibles of the other.

But, today, we had to go to Durango, ourselves to get some building materials at Home Depot, and a couple of other stops. Being curious, I figured I'd ask some of the locals their opinions, either way.

My little survey, included employees, from the stores we went to, a policeman, I button holed to talk to, and some shoppers, contractors,
and various others. Just average people.

With NO EXCEPTIONS they began to tell me pretty much the same story, some expressing embarrassment, fear, disgust, etc,etc. They described it as a frenzy, extremely hostile, dangerous, and one likened it to a mob scene, right out of the news, from the middle east!!! Effigies of Bush and McCain kissing, traffic being blocked and passengers, just passing through being victims of vulgar screams and catcalls.....

'Who were they?' I asked, at every occasion.
"Obama supporters', was the repeated answer.

I found myself thinking about the 'passion' I've seen in the Mudcat Forum, and debated within myself, whether to post anything about this, to you. I've witnessed, on here, some of the most inane, arguments, spins, and denials of well supported facts, and the avoidance of well thought out questions, ..and I've come to the conclusion..Ok, I still don't like McCain, but if this is indicative of Obama supporters, this country is in some serious, serious trouble, the likes we've never seen. Everyone, just step back, take a breath, and without prejudice, or bias...seek the truth, no matter which way the chips fall.

No 'cure remarks' this morning.

26 Oct 08 - 02:25 AM (#2476262)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

..or, cute remarks, either.

26 Oct 08 - 02:37 AM (#2476265)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Ebbie

If I 'read' you aright, I understand your dismay and anxiety as to what kind of nation we are becoming. I agree that it is unacceptable for either supporters or opponents to behave in such a manner.

One of the things I have been saying among friends is that, whoever wins, we all lose if we don't find some way to heal the divisions amongst us.

26 Oct 08 - 02:43 AM (#2476267)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

For once, and wholeheartedly, Ebbie, I agree with you!! I would think as musicians, and people whose expressions come from the inner souls of men, and women, and put it into art, and communicate, from heart to heart, mind to mind...that the healing could, and would start with us, and spread across our nation.

26 Oct 08 - 04:19 AM (#2476280)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Read this last of these, and the shock doctrine one of Carolc's. then take a look around!

26 Oct 08 - 12:24 PM (#2476527)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: TIA

Of course, I wasn't there, and I am unlikely to take anyone's word for anything. While seeking multiple accounts, the only video I could find was this.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/videos/detail/tensions-flare-outside-mccains-rally/

26 Oct 08 - 12:26 PM (#2476528)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

GfS:

The picture you describe is unsettling and saddening.

However, if it is of any comfort, I know lots of Obama supporters, NONE of whom would ever resort to the general kind of demonstrative melodrama you are describing.

While I can appreciate people getting angry after having been fed too many lies, or manipulated too often, I don't think the set of people who are Obama supporters is in any way identical to those who resort to public dramatization of anger and hatred, and in fact I would have expected it (from the degree of mindless hatred I have seen on blogs) to be the opposite--that is, the "public anger" set would have a higher proportion of members from the right.

Another possibility is that this is one of those too-clever maneuvers whereby a group gets framed by others posing as them, and doing extreme things. It's been known to happen in trying times, and this race is certainly such a time.

A

26 Oct 08 - 04:02 PM (#2476682)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Thank you, Ebbie, Amos, and TIA.

The repeated accounts I got, yesterday, all seem to bear out. When I think of all the things that I've seen, read, and heard about this 'election', I'm left with this thought, of which none of the participants seem to even consider. It is the only way out of this mess of intentional divisions that have been perpetrated on us all. It is the only way to give one shelter from the impending clash, about to face this country, so, of course, a 'pre-planned solution' that they have waiting for us. Anyway, it all boils down to this; you are either doing it or not!....and that is........

..."Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you!"-Jesus of Nazereth

26 Oct 08 - 04:08 PM (#2476690)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Richard Bridge

Sorry and all that, but it is getting close to the time for the Molotov cocktail to resume its intended purpose of destroying partriarchal oppression.

26 Oct 08 - 04:20 PM (#2476703)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

I suppose there was a point??

If there was any need to 'destroy patriarchal oppression'..I'm sure your children have more than enough reason!

26 Oct 08 - 05:26 PM (#2476753)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

So are we to understand that the video TIA in the Rocky Mountain Video was drastically censored to make the Obama supporters look totally unthreatening and the whole thing fairly low key? Because that was how it appeared from that clip.

All looked a lot less unpleasant than the stuff in the first minute of this video from a previous occasion, a few weeks ago. (After the first minute it turns into a slide show about Obama, to accompany Dolores Keane singing Let it Be.)

No doubt about it, partisan politics can be remarkably ugly at times. Anyone involved in this kind of situation needs to step back and look at what they are doing and saying, to check they aren't stepping over the line. And that goes for us on threads here as well.

26 Oct 08 - 05:32 PM (#2476761)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

So are we to understand that the Rocky Mountain News video TIA linked us was drastically censored to make the Obama supporters look totally unthreatening and the whole thing fairly low key? Because that was how it appeared from that clip.

All looked a lot less unpleasant than the stuff in the first minute of this video from a previous occasion, a few weeks ago. (After the first minute it turns into a slide show about Obama, to accompany Dolores Keane singing Let it Be.)

No doubt about it, partisan politics can be remarkably ugly at times. Anyone involved in this kind of situation needs to step back and look at what they are doing and saying, to check they aren't stepping over the line. And that goes for us on threads here as well.

26 Oct 08 - 05:53 PM (#2476782)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

I couldn't view the previously linked video of a McCain rally, but I looked around and this is the kind of thing I found. Looks like it's the McCain supporters who are being obnoxious in this one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSHsM9OzHGE

26 Oct 08 - 06:00 PM (#2476790)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

And I found these...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDys9SbVF7k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOjKrFJxu28

A little street theater...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr4MCuvYXIk

26 Oct 08 - 06:07 PM (#2476795)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

More McCain supporters...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vagD-4AH4Vc

26 Oct 08 - 06:43 PM (#2476818)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Big Al Whittle

Is McCain employing a lot of these idiots polluting the net?

If Obama was any of the things you suggest the FBI or the CIA would come right out and say it, and he would never have got to where he is.

Meanwhile if you feel you have all this concrete proof of the man's traitorous intentions - shouldn't you be presenting it to the relevant authorities?

Isn't a more persuasive interpretation of the facts that you are a dumb little racist/conspiracy theory nut? Either that or you fit into the McCain victory strategy as cosily as moose taking, stun guns, and taking no responsibility for the financial shit that America is in?

Could you disprove my overwhelming suspicions?

26 Oct 08 - 06:52 PM (#2476826)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Ebbie

Hey! Ya talkin' to me? Ya talkin' to me?

lol

26 Oct 08 - 08:47 PM (#2476907)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Below, is the headline, I copied and pasted. If you can't get the video, its not that big of a deal. It didn't show much of what I was talking about...mostly some interviews, and a little tension, and harassing on the line. The main stuff was in the street.
By the way, in case you haven't seen the cartoon, or not, 'Tweedy Bird' is yellow.
I'm telling you how it was. As for CarolC. (oh Carol...),Either or both sides behaving in this manner is wrong, and only increases the tension, that I'm sure the string pullers love to see. Let's not give them that satisfaction!

Tensions flare up outside McCain's rally

McCain and Obama supporters clash outside of McCain's rally at the National Western Arena.

26 Oct 08 - 08:53 PM (#2476910)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Charley Noble

GFS-

And what did your plumber have to say, and was he or she licensed to practice?

Charley Noble

26 Oct 08 - 09:05 PM (#2476911)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

I'd just like to see some documentation for Obama supporters behaving as described. So far, I haven't been able to find any, only documentation of McCain supporters behaving badly. Considering all of the really vicious lies that have been told about both Obama and his supporters, I think my skepticism is quite reasonable.

26 Oct 08 - 09:46 PM (#2476926)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 08:53 PM

GFS-

And what did your plumber have to say, and was he or she licensed to practice?

Our electrician, was in the very same position. What I posted is accurate. He worked for a licensed electrician, but the boss,(owner) had to check everything, before he put his name to it, so it could be inspected by the county, and approved. Certain trades have to do that(more, in different states).

CarolC, It has been on both sides, and yet, though this is well known, neither of the candidates seem to address their supporters, either at all, or very effectively...Shame on them!

26 Oct 08 - 09:54 PM (#2476931)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

So far, I have not seen the kind of aggression being directed at McCain supporters by Obama supporters that I've seen being directed at Obama supporters by McCain supporters (in quite a few videos). Even in that video from Colorado, the only aggressive behavior in that video is being directed at Obama supporters by McCain supporters.

26 Oct 08 - 11:29 PM (#2476970)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

"....that video from Colorado, the only aggressive behavior in that video....."

Repeatedly, I was told, that it was quite the opposite....by numerous eye witnesses, who supported either or no candidate. Too bad the media, shot only what it shot..I was just as curious, myself!

Don't you just love to watch Americans dividing themselves with such hostility?? Don't you just love to watch our nation being torn apart, as a result of corrupt politicians??,,Great entertainment! This 'election' is about the sickest, deplorable, deceptive, dirty, 'election' I've seen in my life!!

Maybe, Michelle Obama can be '..proud of America..', now!

26 Oct 08 - 11:40 PM (#2476975)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Most of the videos of aggression by McCain supporters are not from the media. I'm going to reserve judgment on that one until I see some evidence to support it.

26 Oct 08 - 11:49 PM (#2476982)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

You, being a Kucinich supporter, I would think so! He thought not too well of his opponent Obama, either.

26 Oct 08 - 11:55 PM (#2476984)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks

This from the Durango Herald : John McCain's Durango rally peaceful ... La Plata County Republican Party Chairman Ron Tate said local organizers were prepared for the worst in the event divergent political views escalated into something more, but he was pleasantly surprised. "It was just a great day," Tate said. ... "[Republican volunteer Sherri] Rochford said New York Times photographer Stephen Crowley told her Durango was the most beautiful stop he's seen in months on the campaign trail. He also said the number of Obama supporters was the most he's seen at any McCain event. He even commented about the civility shown by supporters and opposition toward each other. "We can be proud of our town. The citizens of Durango and the surrounding communities behaved well and showed their support, and that's what we're supposed to do," Rochford said.

I guess opinions differ, huh?

27 Oct 08 - 01:22 AM (#2477009)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

art, ..now that is completely different, from what I heard, and the headline, in the same 'Durango Herald', that ran yesterday. I guess the head of the Republican Chairman, Ron Tate, is trying to paint a smooth, peaceful image. Oh well, I guess you're believing the Republicans now. Might as well, believe the rest of what they are saying, too.

27 Oct 08 - 01:35 AM (#2477014)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

I think my words have been twisted a bit. I'm saying that I won't believe the stories about Obama supporters behaving aggressively toward McCain supporters until I see some evidence of it. Such evidence doesn't need to come from the media. There's plenty of evidence of aggressive behavior by McCain supporters that doesn't come from the media, so we know that if Obama supporters were really behaving in such an aggressive manner, the evidence of it can be had, even if the media doesn't provide it.

Personally, I think people are just making stuff up to try to make Obama look bad (as they have been doing all along).

To the extent that I have any problems with Obama, they are problems with his policies. As far as I'm concerned, the way the McCain campaign is focusing on lies they're making up about Obama that have nothing whatever to do with his policies, demonstrates how utterly bankrupt both McCain and his campaign are when it comes to the things that matter the most to me, like any kind of coherent, meaningful, and constructive platform, and integrity and character. If McCain had anything other than more of what GW Bush gave us to offer, he wouldn't need to resort to the kinds of slimy smears and lies he and his campaign been lobbing about for months.

27 Oct 08 - 01:44 AM (#2477015)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

(My guess is that no one will provide any source for Obama making such a pledge.)

27 Oct 08 - 01:44 AM (#2477016)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Oops. Wrong thread again.

27 Oct 08 - 02:57 AM (#2477030)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

You're right, Carol, I had to read your post several times to understand how you meant it..but I got it.

27 Oct 08 - 10:42 AM (#2477221)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Ebbie

I've been trying to find news accounts corroborating GfS's reportage but I have not found anything that does so.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/politics/national/stories/DN-macrallies_26pol.State.Edition1.e7c70d.html

News account of McCain rally in Durango. Mentions "hundreds of Mr. Obama supporters" but says nothing about any aggressive behavior

Not a word about it here either: "Durango is nestled in the mountains of southwest Colorado and has a population of about 15,000. As McCain's motorcade rolled through town on the way to the high school, he was greeted by hundreds of Obama supporters lining the streets.
"Inside the event, held on the football field, there were roughly an equal number of McCain supporters as there had been Obama supporters — at least when you subtracted the scads of non-voting-age high school students that had come to check out the rally.

"UPDATE: McCain senior adviser Mark Salter vehemently disagreed with the assertion that there were as many protesters outside as voting-age McCain supporters inside. Salter cited the U.S. Secret Service as his source for a crowd count inside and out — saying there were several thousand of all ages inside and only several hundred outside.
"Washington Wire always asks law enforcement officials on site at events for an independent crowd count. On Friday in Durango, Washington Wire asked for both a count of inside and out but was told nobody was keeping track because it was an outdoor venue."
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/10/24/graham-draws-laughs-at-mccain-rally/

Or here either:
"Several hundred protesters lined the route of John McCain's motorcade as he rolled in to Durango, Colorado for a rally in the small city (population 15,500) in the southwest corner of the state.

"The protest—one of the largest the campaign has seen—was loud and lively, and featured signs reading "F*** the Maverick" and "Joe the Plumber Is A Fraud."

"It wasn't clear how many people were at the rally other than the many students from the local high school.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/1008/Signs_and_shtick_in_Durango.html

Or here:
"He compared it to McCain's recent trip in Durango. Though the town is in a blue county that voted for Democrat John Kerry in 2004, the rally on a high school football field drew more than 6,000 people.

"We went there, drew a line in the sand, and it was great," Kise said. "That's a testament to the fact it's going to be a competitive race."

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/oct/27/100000-plus-jam-civic-center-to-back-candidate/

Conclusion:

Either GfS's surveying skills are seriously lacking or s/he/it knows a lot of marginal people.

27 Oct 08 - 04:39 PM (#2477487)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Not at all!..I talked to the people who saw it, and their accounts all corroborated, with each other.....otherwise, I wouldn't have posted what I learned. Look, I don't have a dog in this fight. I personally think this is a mere charade of an election. Whomever wins, its not the American people, nor any upholding of our Constitution!

27 Oct 08 - 04:47 PM (#2477502)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Stringsinger

If anyone has been watching Sarah Palin rallies on TV it's obvious that they are anything
but peaceful when members of the audience are yelling destructive epithets and McCain and Palin do nothing to cool them down.

Obama's rallies however are contrasted by the fact that he discourages booing, "we don't need that" and exhorts his followers to "vote instead".

The one exception was McCain taking the mic away from the woman who claimed
Obama was "an Arab" and he following up with "No, he's a family man and a decent person". From this we can infer that McCain doesn't believe an Arab is capable of being either.It's this level of racism that permeates the McCain/Palin rallies.

27 Oct 08 - 05:08 PM (#2477532)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

These days you aren't dependent on what people say happened. There are cellphones and digital cameras to show what actually happened.

So where are the video clips showing this kind of thing from Obama supporters :"They described it as a frenzy, extremely hostile, dangerous, and one likened it to a mob scene, right out of the news, from the middle east!!!"?

Plenty of stuff showing McCain supporters saying stuff like the ones in the link I posted earlier from Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, and other places. But there doesn't seem to be much if any video evidence of Obama supporters going overboard.

I'd not be the least surprised if such evidence does exist - clearly tempers are high in this election, and there are nuts and nasties in every movement. But if so, where is it?

If it were a question of the professional media, you could say there's maybe some kind of "liberal censorship" going on. But with the kind of technology I mentioned, and the Internet, media censorship doesn't really work too well any more.

27 Oct 08 - 05:50 PM (#2477570)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bill D

"...their accounts all corroborated, with each other..."

Lessee.... everyone who TOLD you that Obama supporters were naughty agree with each other.

Well...that sure convinces ME!........................... "giggle"

27 Oct 08 - 09:45 PM (#2477735)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: TIA

Fascinating. I originally posted the rockymountainnews video link with no editorial comment, but thought - to myself - that it showed McCain supporter tempers flaring if anything. But it is clearly a Rorshach test. People whose minds are made up (even if they claim that they are not) see what they want to see.

27 Oct 08 - 10:07 PM (#2477746)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Oh, Dear TIA, How you and I used to scrap!.....I think you're showing glimmers of sanity..*wink*..I agree with your post. I guess news on the radio is unreliable, because nobody listens, and understands...they have to look at the pictures!

And all you exception takers, The people I talked to, were not any more McCain supported, or Obama supporters. The conversation never came up about that, till the end. As I said before(cups my hand around my mouth and yells across the mountains, and valleys) WITHOUT EXCEPTION, EITHER CANDIDATE SUPPORTER, OR NEITHER, DESCRIBED THE SAME THING!!!!

...walks down the mountain wagging my head, in dismay.............

27 Oct 08 - 11:02 PM (#2477788)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Ebbie

BACK ATCHA: I found no such account.

28 Oct 08 - 01:13 AM (#2477836)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Genie

Prolific author and talk radio host Thom Hartmann calls Bernie Sanders "America's Senator," and I agree. Bernie calls himself a democratic (small D) socialist (small S) and is registered as an Independent. He is probably the most honest, ethical, and sensible of all our Senators, not beholden to any political party but loyal and dedicated to the ideals of our constitutionally limited democratic republic.

To call Barack Obama a "socialist" a la Bernie Sanders is a great compliment to Barack -- and a great exaggeration of the populist leanings he has shown so far.

But we can hope. : )

28 Oct 08 - 02:39 AM (#2477856)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: The Fooles Troupe

ATF says it's broken up assassination plot targeting Obama
By Lara Jakes Jordan
The Associated Press
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 10.27.2008
http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/hourlyupdate/264373.php

Now, help me - the ATF is the mob that charged into a farm at Waco with tanks, helicopters and tear gas, resulting in the deaths of several?...

28 Oct 08 - 06:36 AM (#2477940)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks

The Waco incident began when the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms attempted to serve a search warrant. They were turned away violently, and the subsequent attack on the compound was conducted by the FBI. Accounts vary, and blame for the subsequent loss of life has been assigned largely according to commentators' perspectives.

28 Oct 08 - 07:07 AM (#2477957)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: irishenglish

GfS- "You, being a Kucinich supporter, I would think so! He thought not too well of his opponent Obama, either. " But come convention time he gave a rousing speech urging Democrats to support Obama now didn't he?

28 Oct 08 - 07:24 AM (#2477973)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

My man Dennis says, "Vote for Obama!"

28 Oct 08 - 07:49 AM (#2477984)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Well, I've told you how it is!..was!..You know, all, we have all witnessed the mood of the protesters, BOTH SIDES, and maybe you're all mesmerized by your computer screens, or perhaps you're thinking this is all light weight stuff, and a couple choruses of Kumbaya will make it all go away. Today on the news, (no pictures included), they arrested two bozos who were plotting to off Obama. Anybody home??? As I posted before, this is one of the nastiest etc etc, elections, I've ever witnessed, only second to Chicago, 1968. I guess this only matters, to you, if it can be reduced to 'win' an argument on a blog.

What many, don't seem to connect, either on the far right, or the far left, is that these tensions, are caused by the two options we have been offered. For those on the right, you may not realize, that if McCain continues Bush's economic policies, which seems to favor, the elite of corporations, the doors are left wide open for the economic disaster, with all its ills, that we have witnessed(with more to come), are only going to spiral inflation, and more government bailouts, and 'privatizing' of government services, coupled with the corruption that goes along with that.

What the left doesn't get, is that while Obama's poll number continue to hold a lead, (and at this point, it appears he is going to win), the stock market is plummeting. Why, you might ask?. Because with his programs, which include taxing capital gain taxes, and going after the 'rich'. , in addition to Obama raising taxes to fund his social(istic) programs. People who have invested in stock futures, know that it's time to bail from the market, and cut their losses. Now before your itchy fingers, get ready to argue that, take pause for a moment, and ask yourselves..was I able to buy the computer you're on, because of an economy that allowed you to afford to buy it,..or was it made possible by a government social welfare program??? Same can be asked about your instruments, you allegedly play?...among other things.

Either of the opposing sides see the flaws of the other side, without either side taking an honest look at themselves. It might make for 'fun' pseudo-intellectual debates on here, and other places, but it is splitting our country apart, and making the fears of both sides come true. Now, on the left, some Einstein, will put forth a bunch of theoretical, ideological rant of why what I posted is not true...that same smart-ass, never owned or bought or sold a piece of stock in his life, either. So let me clue you in, the markets are falling due to an anticipated Obama win.... and to continue the Bush's(read: Paulsen's) economic policies got us into this mess....... Either way, we are going to get more meddlesome, intrusive, police state type government.So, get energized!!..Pick your poison., and above all, sing Kumbaya, and have fun!!

28 Oct 08 - 08:00 AM (#2477990)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Sorry....duhh, hit the wrong key...

Well, I guess if Kucinich said to do it, as he was conceding defeat, instead of thinking it through, I guess you must obey!

In this particular 'election', I can't follow lock step, in line with either side. For me, the power is in the ball point sword!!!!

28 Oct 08 - 08:04 AM (#2477994)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

That claim that the stock market is plummeting because Obama's doing well in the polls is propaganda that is being promoted to help John McCain get elected, and there's no truth to it whatever.

Look, one or the other of these two candidates is going to get elected. For some people it might be fun to sit on the sidelines and snipe at people who have a preference about which one gets elected, but for some of us, the consequences are very serious. Like, for instance, those of us with no access to health care. So we'll just keep on keeping on, while others get their jollies sniping from the sidelines.

28 Oct 08 - 08:15 AM (#2478000)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: irishenglish

For Gfs' benefit, since he seems so fucking jaded.

I am a liberal. I own a few stocks and IRA's. I have not, nor will not bail on the market right now, as the money I have in those is, in essence, "found money." Does that make me an Einstein? Or does it just make me a PERSON who happened to invest some money?

I bought my computer the old fashioned way, the same as I buy all my major purchases. Saving until I could afford them, putting that money in a boring old savings account. It was not, as you so gleefully put it, through a government social welfare program. Simple math-computer costs lets just say $1000. Put away money for a month or two without dipping into your weekly expenses and bills, maybe eat out a little less, stop buying coffee in the morning out, and whammo-new computer in a short time.

You seem to like to translate your thoughts onto people with an awful lot of assumptions about them. You seem to like the labels as well, such as socialist. You don't seem to understand that, yes, a lot of people are struggling in this country right now, including my wife and I. She just started college again, at age 30. We pay our rent on time. We have savings. We are able to go out on the weekend. We are struggling, but you know what? We figure it out. I don't want to be paying $4 for a gallon of milk, or frankly $12 for a six pack of beer. But we do. It ain't always easy, but we do. So forgive me, if I believe that the burden placed on millions of people like us across this country, and those even worse off could do far, far worse, than have a re-evaluation of the way things are going right now.

28 Oct 08 - 08:48 AM (#2478022)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Once again, you've got it wrong, and mistook what I've said. Carol, it's not propaganda...its just logical, that the market is falling, in anticipation of an Obama win. Step back and consider why. Hey, I'm not saying things are going to be rosy with a McCain win, either. But, by in large, most heavy investors are not wanting their investments to be taxed at a higher rate. Obama's programs are not perceived as being 'investor friendly'.

Irish, If you could read my post, accurately, you'll see, that you just said the same thing I did..you bought your stuff with YOUR saved money, NOT from a government program, that handed it to you.

Methinks you're a trigger happy arguer for arguments sake.
'A wise man hears ALL before he speaks' -Proverbs

28 Oct 08 - 08:55 AM (#2478029)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

The market is falling because people have lost confidence in it. And well they might, under the circumstances. We both know it's all smoke and mirrors, and because the fundamentalist capitalist ideologues decided to run it into the ground, people want to get back out of it what they put into it. It is now, and has always been nothing more than an colossal ponzi scheme, and none of the people who were playing in it want to be among the ones who end up being the chumps. That's why the market is falling. It has nothing whatever to do with Obama.

28 Oct 08 - 09:03 AM (#2478032)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Riginslinger

"...it's not propaganda...its just logical, that the market is falling, in anticipation of an Obama win."

It's a self-fulfilling prophesy: The market is falling in anticipation of an Obama win, and voters are supporting Obama because the market is falling.

28 Oct 08 - 09:11 AM (#2478037)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

In order for anyone to believe that the market is falling because Obama's doing well in the polls, they have to ignore all of the other factors that have contributed to the total economic situation all over the world right now. Like the housing bubble, and the collapse of the housing bubble, the collapse of the derivatives market, and the collapse of large numbers of banks as a result of these things. I know blaming it on Obama is an attractive idea for people who are heavily invested in getting McCain elected, but it's just a fantasy and will only be bought by people who like to see the world in the simplest of terms.

28 Oct 08 - 09:27 AM (#2478050)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

One thing that people who are promoting this idea fail to see (but many people with money to invest do not fail to see) is the fact that our economy is failing because it is stuck. It's stuck in an old paradigm that doesn't work any more. It's an oil based economy in an age when oil is becoming scarce. In order to maintain this old economic paradigm, it is necessary to wage resource wars all over the world, and to suppress whole societies and suppress peoples desire for, and striving toward democracy. This paradigm is good for enriching a few people at the top (spectacularly so), but it can't continue to grow indefinitely. Sooner or later it has to collapse like a house of cards. Which is what it's doing now.

The reason getting Obama elected will help the economy, is because he understands how to transition the country into the new economic paradigm. He understands that the economy has to move beyond the petroleum economy and into the green economy. That's where all of the future growth is. And once we are in the green economic paradigm, we won't need to waste vast amounts of money, resources, and human lives enforcing our stranglehold on the oil producing countries in the Middle East. When those vast amounts of money are freed up, they will be pumped back into the economy here at home, which will help it to grow even more.

The old paradigm is dead. The only question is how long people like the Republicans and their supporters are willing to wallow around in its corpse before they decide to let go and allow the rest of humanity to continue along in its natural evolution.

28 Oct 08 - 09:28 AM (#2478051)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: TIA

Yes, we have scrapped. And it is largely because I find your writing style completely pompous, condescending, and dismissive...witness the repeated snide Kumbaya references (which I suspect are inserted intentionally to rile the very type of person who inhabits this forum). But, you might be a fine person in real life, so best regards.

28 Oct 08 - 09:37 AM (#2478059)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

its just logical, that the market is falling, in anticipation of an Obama win

This is th emost meretricious, off-the wall piece of illogic I have seen all month. Someone's been smoking fromt erh wrong end of the pipe, or sompn. This is loony illogic.

A

28 Oct 08 - 10:06 AM (#2478091)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Alice

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- U.S. markets rallied Tuesday morning, joining markets around the world, as investors looked beyond recession fears and scooped up stocks hit in the recent retreat.

28 Oct 08 - 10:18 AM (#2478104)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: irishenglish

Well GFS-after re reading your post, in fact I do not interpret what you wrote as being the same thing that I wrote. Moreover, that I am a trigger happy arguer. Laughable, actually. You say, "Now, on the left, some Einstein, will put forth a bunch of theoretical, ideological rant of why what I posted is not true...that same smart-ass, never owned or bought or sold a piece of stock in his life, either."

Again, I say, as someone on the left, not particularly Einstein, but pretty bright nonetheless, not particularly ranting, but merely stating his own reality, ideological or otherwise, sometimes a smartass, but someone who has both bought and sold several pieces of stock and other types of investments which thereby disproves this theory you ascribe to that liberals somehow don't invest, again I say sorry but you are wrong.

28 Oct 08 - 10:40 AM (#2478117)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Well the stocks sure ain't rising because of an anticipated Obama win!!!!

Here's what I wrote:
'What many, don't seem to connect, either on the far right, or the far left, is that these tensions, are caused by the two options we have been offered. For those on the right, you may not realize, that if McCain continues Bush's economic policies,....'

Do you see the word 'FAR', preceding the words 'left', and 'right'???

With Pelosi as well, (She and her ilk sure screwed up California's budget), there will come the most ridiculous tax increases for stupid programs, the planet has ever witnessed! California's economy went from sixth highest in the world, to bankruptcy with Pelosi, Boxer, and Feinstien...(Not up for a mindless debate either!)

Here's an appropriate video for you....listen to the lyrics!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP1sQF7zRy8

As far as TIA's post....Hey, one man's ceiling is another man's floor!

28 Oct 08 - 10:44 AM (#2478122)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

"ask yourselves..was I able to buy the computer you're on, because of an economy that allowed you to afford to buy it,..or was it made possible by a government social welfare program???"

I imagine for some people it's the first and for some people it's the second. All depends on circumstances.

28 Oct 08 - 10:49 AM (#2478128)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Here's the full version by the group....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMrm7ZQ0aMA&feature=related

28 Oct 08 - 11:09 AM (#2478149)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: irishenglish

Um, how did Pelosi screw up the California economy being a Maryland representative?

28 Oct 08 - 11:11 AM (#2478151)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Big Al Whittle

The market is falling because George Bush (and John MacCain) has pissed away the country's resources on meaningless wars and spent all the tax dollars with armaments manufacturers who filled his election coffer.

You could have developed the car that didn't need petrol , but instead you pissed the money up wall and repeatedly voted for an idiot.

A calamity you seem to wish on your country once again.

28 Oct 08 - 11:16 AM (#2478155)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks

As a matter of interest, GfS, since Senators Feinstein and Boxer and Representative Pelosi serve in the US Congress rather than the California legislature, just how did they cause California's "bankruptcy"? In fact, none of them have ever served in California's Senate or Assembly. And, since Gov. Schwarzenegger has a line-item veto and can eliminate any "stupid programs" if he chooses to do so, can the fault for any fiscal crisis that exists there be given exclusively to either party?

28 Oct 08 - 11:32 AM (#2478171)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: irishenglish

D'oh! more coffee needed. Please ignore my above post-(IE quietly leaves room embarassed!)

28 Oct 08 - 11:42 AM (#2478184)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Big Al Whittle

Frankly yes. The Republican party, rather like our own Tory party, loves the rhetoric of confrontation.

Such rhetoric is addictive and alluring stuff for all leaders of men. They get to strut and puff themselves up to feelings of great importance.

With Maggie Thatcher, it cost hundreds more lives in Northern Ireland, where a more conciliatory tone would have prevented a lot of bloodshed.

You'll have to work out your own body count, and the great advantages of George playing at being a 'wartime President'.

28 Oct 08 - 01:14 PM (#2478266)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

1. McCain obviously belongs to the Josef Goebbels school of rhetoric. Give the idiots in your population something, or someone, to fear and you can easily persuade them to vote for Jack the Ripper. In Germany Adolf used the Jews as bogeyman. McCain isn't satisfied with just using the black card. He wants to scare Americans with something they REALLY don't understand, so he calls him a SOCIALIST.

2. Americans in general haven't a clue what the word socialism means, and see it as a threat to society. Basically, genuine socialism is about NOT sitting on your porch with a six pack and a pile of sandwiches, while watching your neighbour starve to death. It is about being prepared to offer a little of what you have to help someone less fortunate. From what I have read of the history of America, it was built on that kind of neighbourliness. But that was a long time ago, and you all seem to have forgotten how.

3. The mark of a civilised nation is not how advanced its technology, nor how large its assets. It is how well it treats its poorest, and most vulnerable citizens. In that respect the USA is at present no more than semi civilised. Obama my well turn out to be the man to change that, and deal with what is wrong at home, rather than attempting to be the world's policeman like his predecessor.

4. What you decide in this election, has ramifications for a large proportion of the world's population, which makes it arguably the most important vote in the history of your nation. Think hard about whether it is more important to fight foreign wars for control of other peoples' resources, or to fight at home against injustice, and bigotry.

Don T.

28 Oct 08 - 01:19 PM (#2478270)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Perhaps, more English tea, and less Irish coffee, eh???

28 Oct 08 - 01:21 PM (#2478275)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Sorry, forgot to include you post.......Joe!!!!....help!!!

From: irishenglish
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 11:32 AM

D'oh! more coffee needed. Please ignore my above post-(IE quietly leaves room embarassed!)

Perhaps, more English tea, and less Irish coffee, eh???

28 Oct 08 - 02:26 PM (#2478348)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: irishenglish

gfs, if that was intended as good humoured, I will take it with a smile. Mistake on my part, pure and simple. If it was not though, I do not like Irish coffee, nor the implication.

28 Oct 08 - 04:26 PM (#2478459)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert

You have it all backwards, GfS... No, maybe you have in in-side-out... Whatever you have it it misses the cause of the current meltdown... We don't have a credit crisis... We have an income crisis... The American working class has been lost idexed purchasing power every year since 1982... The main reason for this is that Boss Hog (management) used the power of the governemnt in an activist/liberal manner to create laws and tax codes that favor the rich...

(But, Bobert, the rich create all those wonderful jobs...)

Okay, they create jobs... Wonderfull??? Not many and not any to speak of over the last 8 years in particular... It should also be pointed out that small firms with owners who aren't rich employ alot of folks, too...

But nevermind that...

What we have seen since 1982 is an erosion of investment in our own American working class... We don't make anything anymore since we shipped out all of our manufacturing equipement to Bamgldesk, Pakistan, China and India... So what do we do??? We consume... Problem is that as our spending power has gone down, down, down and Boss Hog (management) has used up alot of the tax breaks he got from Bush to ***lend*** to the working class and the working class is all ***borrowed out*** and this the housing bubble... Bad lending and bad spending....

So, bottom line is that the rich have screwed themselves while screwing the working class... The free market has not policed itself... It is like the fox guarding the hen house...

So, yeah... Call it socialism if you like but until we figure out how to stabilize the incomes of the working class this problem won't just magically disappear... This ain't a cycle... This is a dead-end... Now the US purdy much has to start from scratch and this time without the means-of-production and, quite frankly, not a citizenry who would even know how to use it...

So, yeah... There is still alot ot wealth in the country but it is going to have be used for the betterment of US all and not just the upper 5 ot 10% if we are, as a nat5ion, to survive... We are going to have to see that capital is used more responsibly... Owning 7 houses is not a responsible use of one's capital... Lending it to folks to pay for basic survival isn't a responsible use of capital...
Invetsing in overseas ventures to avoild paying taxes isn't a repsonsible use of capital... Hiding it in off-shore accounts isn't a responsible use of capital...

Face it, the rich don't give a rat's ass if they are being responsible stewarts of capital... That's is excatly where this vector of history has gotten us and now we are going to have to reshuffle... Call it socialism, if you want... Techincally, it won't be... It will just be responsible capitalism with laws and tax codes to make it so...

That's the real deal...

Bobert

28 Oct 08 - 05:32 PM (#2478525)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Bobert, '(But, Bobert, the rich create all those wonderful jobs...)'

...and give them to those illegals, Because those 'silly Yanks' don't want them(??)......

...but they don't need them,..all the paying ones got shipped overseas!

28 Oct 08 - 05:36 PM (#2478529)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Irishenglish,...Surely it was meant in jest..I have absolutely NO animosity, or ill will toward any of the bonehead musicians in here!!

Shit, look how much material I've given them!!!...but alas, a lot of them can't see the forest for the trees!

oh yeah..drink tea then....

28 Oct 08 - 06:46 PM (#2478579)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert

Those "illegals", GfS, are working for $12 an hour with no benefits... But nevermind that... The illegals have nothing to do with the premise I laid out... Nothing at all...

Well, come to think about it, they do... Whereas the average Anerican weorker has suffered from a 30 year downward wage spiril that $12 an hour still seams like a lota money to folk from El Salvidor or Mexico... Guess that does prove my above point about the US economy suffering from a wage crisis...

But, regardless, the illegals aren't running the machines that produce syuff because all those machines are long gone... Yup, packed into sea containers, put on the boat and are now being run by Pakistanis...

B~

28 Oct 08 - 10:47 PM (#2478716)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest From Sainty

Yes, Bobert I agree with you......it's part of the whole scheme of things...It's taken both parties to hoodwink the public to make it happen too!!...Watch, they're not done yet......

remember, don't B flat...B sharp..but B natural!

29 Oct 08 - 05:55 AM (#2478825)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Sarah Palin is a socialist.

John McCain is a socialist, too.

29 Oct 08 - 07:47 AM (#2478874)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert

Yeah, there is no doubt that Palin is a socialist... She's even sent checks out to the citizens rather than use the money for infastructure??? How amny governeors have been in position to do that??? Well, none... But no other state recieves as much per capita pork dollars as Alaska...

B~

29 Oct 08 - 08:44 AM (#2478924)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

Of course the downside of saying "Obama is a socialist", from the point of view of those doing this, is that it's liable to mean an awful lot of Americans deciding that, if Obama really is a socialist, socialism can't be such a bad thing after all.

29 Oct 08 - 10:22 AM (#2478995)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Before this was a topic, in the media, or even on here, I asserted that both party's agenda were socialist(like over a month ago), to which I got ragged on. As it turned out, and as time tells..I was right again! In earlier posts, I likened the right and the left, as being in the ring with a boxer, who comes at you, with both a right, another right..and a left, another right, and a left..pointing out, that is was the same boxer. Anyone who can't see this, just isn't watching..before you get knocked out! I have also said, that a BALANCE between capitalism and socialism, is NOT a bad thing, and actually works well together!
The problem is, when either one gets out of balance, and dominates to a point of being either ruthless, or corrupt, as we have seen. Capitalism, in fact is not all bad either! Ever wanted to SELL your music?..or should the state own it, and dictate when and where it can be heard? On the other hand, do we like a monopolistic music industry, that limits our music, so it can't be heard at all?..in favor of some some 'commercial dumbed down trash'??
The fact that the market SHOULD dictate what is popular, is fine, but when the media forces (powers that be), in the mainstream, is guilty, of promoting 'dumbed down' trends and fads, just to sell 'dumbed down' junk, well that, to me, is capitalism in a socially harmful way! This applies to far more than music!!! take for instance the absolute crappy junk, we get from China's manufacturing sector (if you want to call it that), that we buy for cheaper, so the companies that have it made there, can increase their profit margins, for cheap labor! The product doesn't get better, the jobs and manufacturing base of our country, leaves our shores, which erodes both our productivity, and our ability to create wealth...instead of just printing more, worthless money!! These policies have been from BOTH sides of the aisle, under BOTH parties administrations...and its time we stop kidding ourselves! China doesn't even recognize our intellectual property rights!...This is not 'good' capitalism practices...from an 'out of balance' socialistic country....who is eating us alive......
ok....I'll get off the soap box, now....just thought I'd point that out...Its Balance!!!, not capitulation, or compromise!!

29 Oct 08 - 10:46 AM (#2479024)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

Rearn Barance!!!!!

Mr. Kesuke Miyagi

29 Oct 08 - 10:52 AM (#2479031)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

Th existence of private property and private enterprise shouldn't be confused with a system in which corporate capitalism runs riot, and diminishes and destroys such things. It's a confusion that is encouraged by corporate capitalists.

That applies just as much when it is state capitalism rather than finance capitalism.

The existence of a significant public sector, including co-operatives and other forms, is in principle helpful to and even essential for genuine human-scale free enterprise.

29 Oct 08 - 12:28 PM (#2479083)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Obama / Ayers joint experience in public education:

The Chicago Annenberg Challenge: Successes, Failures, and Lessons for the Future
8/2003. Mark Smylie, Stacy Wenzel, Elaine Allensworth, Carol Fendt, Sara Ray Stoelinga (credited as Sara Hallman), Stuart Luppescu, and Jenny Nagaoka

From the 1996-97 through 2000-01 school years, the Annenberg Foundation awarded special funding to as many as 210 of Chicago's public schools, 90 percent of which were elementary schools. The funding, which had also been provided to cities such as New York and San Francisco, was part of a large-scale local school reform philosophy that intended to improve student achievement and other social and psychological outcomes. In Chicago, the Annenberg Challenge reflected a democratic localism that placed great faith in the ability of local schools, in partnership with parents and their communities, to develop their own strategies to achieve professional development and instructional goals.
In order to determine the value of such reforms, the Chicago Annenberg Challenge funded a five-year analysis of the program, led by Mark Smylie, Stacy Wenzel, and a specialized Consortium research team. This team received guidance from a diversified base of local and national researchers and educators, including dozens of Chicago Public School (CPS) teachers.
Drawing from student test scores, longitudinal surveys, and teacher and principal interview data, the Consortium team evaluated whether the Challenge catalyzed school improvement and student academic achievement, and investigated the myriad factors that contributed to these results. During the same period as the study, CPS implemented its own set of major reforms, including high-stakes testing, increased emphasis on basic reading and mathematics skills, and the end of social promotion. As a result, this report also examines the ways in which the Chicago Annenberg Challenge's goals conflicted with those of CPS, and how those conflicting policies may have helped or hindered students' and schools' success. Understanding these outcomes will inform future large-scale school reform initiatives and their implementation at the local school level.
This is the final technical report of a series of publications on the Annenberg Challenge that began in the summer of 1998. The series of technical reports on the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, along with a series of special topic reports that examine particular areas of school development, student outcomes, and change strategies, are listed below. Reports in both series are available to the public, and the most recent reports may be downloaded for free as PDF files....
.....The Challenge's "bottom line" was improving student achievement and other social and psychological outcomes. Our research indicates that student outcomes in Annenberg schools were much like those in demographically similar non-Annenberg schools and across the Chicago school system as a whole, indicating that among the schools it supported, the Challenge had little impact on student outcomes... There were no statistically significant differences between Annenberg schools and non-Annenberg schools in rates of achievement gain. Across Annenberg schools, student academic engagement was only slightly greater in 2001 than before the Challenge. Classroom behavior, students' sense of self-efficacy, and social competence were weaker in 2001 than before the Challenge. Like student achievement, there were no statistically significant differences in these outcomes between Annenberg and non-Annenberg schools.....

Ayers speech in Caracas 2006:

"This is my fourth visit to Venezuela, each time at the invitation of my comrade and friend Luis Bonilla, a brilliant educator and inspiring fighter for justice. Luis has taught me a great deal about the Bolivarian Revolution and about the profound educational reforms underway here in Venezuela under the leadership of President Chavez. We share the belief that education is the motor-force of revolution, and I've come to appreciate Luis as a major asset in both the Venezuelan and the international struggle" I look forward to seeing how he and all of you continue to overcome the failings of capitalist education as you seek to create something truly new and deeply humane. Thank you, Luis, for everything you've done.
I also thank my youngest son, Chesa Boudin, who is interpreting my talk this morning and whose book on the Bolivarian revolution has played an important part in countering the barrage of lies spread by the U.S. State Department and the corrupted Northamerican media.......
......Viva Mission Sucre!
Viva Presidente Chavez!
Viva La Revolucion Bolivariana!
Hasta La Victoria Siempre!

29 Oct 08 - 02:17 PM (#2479166)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

"The Annenberg Foundation, a charitable family trust, was created on July 1, 1989 by media magnate and former Ambassador to the Court of St. James's Walter H. Annenberg."

29 Oct 08 - 02:33 PM (#2479183)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

"In John McCain's newest Web ad, he attacks Barack Obama for supporting a "radical education foundation" that gave millions to "idealogical allies" that resulted in scant improvement in the quality of public schools.

He was referring to the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, detailed by my colleagues in this EdWeek story and this sidebar story.

McCain, who has criticized Obama for his ties to William Ayers, one of the founders of Chicago's Annenberg project, is now associating with the very foundation that funded the "radical" work.

His campaign sent out a press release listing all of the former U.S. ambassadors who support him.

On his supporters' list: Leonore Annenberg, 90, who was chief of protocol in the Reagan White House and is the president and chairman of the Pennsylvania-based Annenberg Foundation. She is the widow of Walter H. Annenberg, the late publisher, philanthropist, ambassador, and founder of the Annenberg Challenge."

..."You know what else "we know" about "candor?" Lenore Annenberg, wife of Amb. William Annenberg, who founded the Annenberg Foundation on whose board Barack Obama and William Ayers sat, gave money to and endorsed Sen. McCain for President. Does that mean that John McCain supports domestic terrorism since Annenberg chose Ayers for his board? Of course not. I agree with Rachel Maddow and Michael Scherer on this one: all of this Ayers stuff is pure nonsense. "

"McCain-Bill Ayers-Annenberg -Friend That Trust Each Other or What? McCain Trumpets Endorsement From Figure Of Foundation That Established Ayers Board
stumble digg reddit del.ico.us news trust mixx.com
October 8, 2008 11:55 AM
On Wednesday morning, John McCain's campaign released a list of 100 former ambassadors endorsing the GOP presidential nominee.

Second on the list, though her name is misspelled, is Leonore Annenberg, currently the president and chairman of the Annenberg Foundation and widow of ambassador and philanthropist Walter Annenberg. Ms. Annenberg was herself the "chief of protocol" at the State Department under President Reagan.

If the last name sounds familiar, it's because it also graces the name of the Chicago education board where Barack Obama and William Ayers sat in the room six times together.

In recent days, the McCain-Palin ticket (and particularly Palin) has faulted Obama for having served on that board with Ayers, who was a founding member of the radical 60's Weather Underground group when Obama was in grade school.

Since then, however, Ayers has been rehabilitated in Chicago society, carving out a niche in education circles. As a former Republican representative in Illinois told NPR on Monday, smearing Obama for his board association with Ayers is "nonsensical."

"It was never a concern by any of us in the Chicago school reform movement that he had led a fugitive life years earlier ... It's ridiculous," Republican Rep. Diana Nelson said. "There is no reason at all to smear Barack Obama with this association. It's nonsensical, and it just makes me crazy. It's so silly."

..."

From assorted websites in a quick search.

Sawz, you and your right-wing co-vampires in residence are just gonna have to do better than that.

A

29 Oct 08 - 02:38 PM (#2479188)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

"In 1995, Bill Ayers was part of a team that helped create the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, an education reform project that worked with half of Chicago's public schools. Barack Obama, then working as an attorney and law school professor, was elected chairman of the eight-member board of the CAC.

We also now know how much money the Annebergs pumped into the CAC:

..the CAC was funded by a foundation belonging to Walter Annenberg, the billionaire Republican philanthropist who served as Richard M. Nixon's ambassador to the U.K. Annenberg and his wife, Leonore, gave the CAC $50 million in the 90's.

If it's acceptable to play the "guilt by association" card, then Anneberg funded a terrorist with $50,000,000. Other recipients of Anneberg money includes:

But Walter and Leonore weren't just giving money to educational foundations started by William Ayers. They were also giving hundreds of thousands of dollars to the Republican National Committee and various other Republican groups, as well as to a whole host of Republican candidates, including the following:

   * George W. Bush       $4000
   * Mitt Romney       $5000
   * Strom Thurmond       $1000
   * Fred Thompson       $500
   * Rick Santorum       $3000

Now here comes the "off message" blunder by the McCain campaign. Check the Press Release they released last Thursday. The title is as follows:

100 U.S. Ambassadors Endorse McCain-Palin

Further in the Press Release, note the former Ambassador the McCain camp is trumpeting:

">..they have in the historic McCain-Palin ticket."

FORMER U.S. AMBASSADORS FOR MCCAIN-PALIN

Lenore Annenberg, Chief of Protocol -- Radnor, Penn."

That's right folks, that Leonore/Lenore Annenberg, she of the Annenberg Foundation, the funders of the CAC and financial backer to a known terrorist.

How does that "guilt by association" argument look now?..."

(DailyKOS)

29 Oct 08 - 03:50 PM (#2479242)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Amos, dear ol' Amos, good ol' buddy in musical taste.......By your own post, you point out a connection (Annenbergs, for ONE)that there mutual associations and connections between the far right, and far left, in the higher echelons, ok??..What have I been telling you all along??? Some of these connections, have a higher agenda, and the funds to 'fund'(read: bribe, or even buy)influence national policy. The very fact that they can use their moneys to over ride true representation of constituents from being represented, in a Democracy, is in fact corrupt! Your pal Obama, is just one of them. That in itself does NOT exonerate the FAR right, who accept funds...from the SAME people. Accepting money, by BOTH sides assures the 'benefactors' that whomever is in office, is MUCH OBLIGED!

As I have previously said, 'We in America, have the best politicians money can buy!'

...And watch them go through all the phases of denial, when they get found out. Usually, when that said politician, is of no longer use, or the charges are made...seldom do the ones who do the bribing are punished...just the politician. Look at Stevens...How about going after the oil company bribers, as vigorously!!?!!?

Hmmm ..Let's think now...something in common with Reagan and Obama??...something to think about....

29 Oct 08 - 05:12 PM (#2479304)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert

All these conspiracy threories are beyond silly... They are downright boring...

Who cares if Barak Obama was the only 8 year old in the WeatherUnderground... It don't change what he has to offer today... Or more importantly, tomorrow... The 60's were a long time ago...

Beyond silly...

B~

29 Oct 08 - 05:55 PM (#2479338)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Riginslinger

McCain faults paper for not releasing Khalidi tape
BETH FOUHY ASSOCIATED PRESS
Originally published 05:41 p.m., October 29, 2008, updated 05:07 p.m., October 29, 2008

Buzz up!BOWLING GREEN, OHIO (AP) - Republicans John McCain and Sarah Palin accused the Los Angeles Times on Wednesday of protecting Barack Obama by withholding a videotape of the Democrat attending a 2003 party for a Palestinian-American professor and critic of Israel.
McCain and Palin called Rashid Khalidi a former spokesman for the Palestine Liberation Organization, a characterization that Khalidi has denied in the past. Both candidates said guests at the party made critical comments about Israel.
Khalidi is a professor of Middle East Studies at Columbia University and a longtime friend of Obama's. Khalidi has publicly criticized Israel.
On Wednesday, McCain said 1960s radical Bill Ayers had attended the same party in 2003. McCain and Palin have criticized Obama for his ties to Ayers and questioned what the videotape of the party might show.

Let's see, how old was Barack Obama in 2003, hmmm?

29 Oct 08 - 06:10 PM (#2479353)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

John McCain's ties to Rashid Khalidi

'During the 1990s, while he served as chairman of the International Republican Institute (IRI), McCain distributed several grants to the Palestinian research center co-founded by Khalidi, including one worth half a million dollars.

A 1998 tax filing for the McCain-led group shows a $448,873 grant to Khalidi's Center for Palestine Research and Studies for work in the West Bank. (See grant number 5180, "West Bank: CPRS" on page 14 of this PDF.)

The relationship extends back as far as 1993, when John McCain joined IRI as chairman in January. Foreign Affairs noted in September of that year that IRI had helped fund several extensive studies in Palestine run by Khalidi's group, including over 30 public opinion polls and a study of "sociopolitical attitudes."'

29 Oct 08 - 06:11 PM (#2479354)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

I heard...bou I didn't want to venture there...as not to hear lame spinning...

29 Oct 08 - 06:13 PM (#2479356)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

I think I already posted, concerning these type activities.....you can go back to sleep, ..again...

29 Oct 08 - 06:13 PM (#2479357)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

If McCain's willing to give Khalidi almost a half million dollars, he must be an ok guy. Right?

29 Oct 08 - 06:20 PM (#2479363)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

I wouldn't put anything past McCain..Kissinger endorses him..Bryzinzky advised Obama.....and Bush...and Clinton...and Reagan...and Bush Sr...and Carter....and..well, you fill in the spaces...

29 Oct 08 - 06:41 PM (#2479386)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Ok Amos so what is the bottom line of the information you dug up?

Did Obama and his associate Ayers, cooperate on the CAC?____________

Was it a failure? _________

Is this an preview of what Obama will do with education if he is prez? __________________

Is Bill Ayers a Marxist associated with Obama? ___________

Did the ideology of of Bill Ayers and his associate Obama feed back thru Annenberg somehow and influence McCain? _____________

Is Annenberg running for public office? _________

This is your feeble attempt at guilt by assocaition.

You have such a weak case that you need to prop it up with rhetorical name calling.

Now would you care to describe Ayres and Obama's cooperation on the Woods Fund?

"Barak Obama was the only 8 year old in the WeatherUnderground"

How old was Obama when Ayers was in Caracas calling people Comrade?

Ayers in 2006: "Despite being under constant attack from within and from abroad, the Bolivarian revolution has made astonishing strides in a brief period: from the Mission Simoncito to the Mission Robinson to the Mission Ribas to the Mission Sucre, to the Bolivarian schools and the UBV, Venezuelans have shown the world that with full participation, full inclusion, and popular empowerment, the failings of capitalist schooling can be resisted and overcome. Venezuela is a beacon to the world in its accomplishment of eliminating illiteracy in record time, and engaging virtually the entire population in the ongoing project of education."

So if Bill Ayers can do better, why did the CAC fail?

Bill Ayers, 2002 "I am as much an anarchist as a Marxist"

"The White Panther Party was a group of cultural revolutionaries mainly. They were artists and anarchists and drug, dope smokers and a really good group of people."

29 Oct 08 - 07:03 PM (#2479407)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Don Firth

"This is your feeble attempt at guilt by assocaition."

THIS coming from YOU, Sawzaw!??

THAT's as snort!!

Don Firth

29 Oct 08 - 07:05 PM (#2479408)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks

Of course, we must never forget that serial killer John Wayne Gacy was a Chicago resident, a Democratic Party activist and allegedly well acquainted with Rosalyn Carter. His attorney, Sam L. Amirante, was a judge in Cook County while Senator Obama was practicing law there...how's THAT for a relationship!! Much closer and far more suspicious than Obama's (or McCain's) with Professor Ayers! Who knows what they talked about during those mysterious "recesses to the judge's chambers"?

29 Oct 08 - 07:24 PM (#2479424)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert

So it's guilt by association???

Ya' have one guy who was 8 years old who 30 years later meets a guy who did some dumb stuff in the 60's and...

...then another guy, who in his 60's and 70's voted for the current failed policies of the Bush administartion 92% of the time???

Don't take the Wes Ginny Slide Rule to tell ya' which one is most dangerous...

But really, folks... Sawz arguments are just destractions form the real differences between Obama and his guy and really have nothing to do with this election...

B~

29 Oct 08 - 08:06 PM (#2479454)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

ughh hmm(clears throat)Guilt by association??..I just posted this a short while ago..was this more than 'guilt by association..or perhaps a little more??????

Bryzinzky advised Obama.....and Bush...and Clinton...and Reagan...and Bush Sr...and Carter....and..well, you fill in the spaces...

Now let's not pass this one over, all you spinners....

29 Oct 08 - 08:43 PM (#2479488)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Ebbie

Bryzinzky advised Obama.....and Bush...and Clinton...and Reagan...and Bush Sr...and Carter....and..well, you fill in the spaces...

Now let's not pass this one over, all you spinners...." Glutton for Insanity

Ya can't even spell 'Brezinski'; you are on a par with the Zbenew Brezinski I found a moment ago. lol

That idiot shivers in his boots as he gasps out that ZB is a member of the Bilderberg's group. What is the matter with you two? Do you really expect to be taken seriously?

"Brezinski, who stood out for his relatively hawkish views in an administration that often emphasized human rights, told the crowd that by invading Iraq the "United States has become engaged in what is essentially a colonial war in the post-colonial era." He also opined that the Iraq war "has discredited America worldwide," and warned that the conflict in Iraq might spread to Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

"Saying Obama "was not, like many others, a Johnny-come-lately" with regard to realizing that the Iraq war was a so-called "fool's enterprise," Brezinski told the members of the crowd that they had the opportunity to change the world by supporting the Illinois senator.

"In August, Brezinski supported Obama during a foreign policy spat between the Illinois senator and his chief rival, Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-New York. In addition to advising President Carter, Brezinski also was adviser to officials in the Kennedy and Johnson administrations."

Yep, he is scary, all right.

29 Oct 08 - 09:19 PM (#2479514)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Riginslinger

Yeah, he looks like a white haired Mr. Spock.

29 Oct 08 - 10:54 PM (#2479552)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

Hell, GfS, no-one denies that loose associations of millionaires and billionaires have always had (since there were such animals) great fistfuls of power and the desire to use same to their own ends, better or worse.

The issue becomes whether the government of by and for people at large allows itself to become completely co-opted by such power structures, or only somewhat.

A

30 Oct 08 - 12:14 AM (#2479586)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Bobert, take out the ol' Wes Ginny slide rool and figger out how old Obama was when he sat on the Woods board (hint: it ain't made outa wood) with Ayers handin out $110,000 to Khalidi for the Arab American Action Network.

And how old was he when he sat on the CAC board with Ayers handin out millions for a failed social engeneering experiment in education. And $2 million to Mike Klonsky, the Marxist, Maoist Leninist leader of the New Communist Movement, who along with Ayers, Dohrn, and other radicals formed Students for a Democratic Society, formed the "October League," which later became the "Communist Party (Marxist Leninist) CP[ML]." After Mao's death, the Chinese communist leadership said CP[ML] reflected the aspirations of the proletariat and working people.

Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, how many commies, socialists, radicals, Muslims and crooks does Obama associate with anyway? Every time I do a little searching another one pops up.

How can Obama be so stupid as to not know about these peoples past and distance himself?

Ayers gives him a political coming out party and he don't know Ayers?

30 Oct 08 - 12:34 AM (#2479592)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

So McCain gives Khalidi a half million dollars and that's ok. No problem. It's only if Obama gives Khalidi any money that it becomes a problem?

Fortunately anyone with any intelligence can see these double standards for what they are.

30 Oct 08 - 01:14 AM (#2479602)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Bobert is good with figgerin out folks ages when such an such happened so how old are Obama's kids and Ayers kids Bobert?

David Axelrod, Obama campaign manager:

"Bill Ayers lives in his neighborhood. Their kids attend the same school," he said. "They're certainly friendly, they know each other, as anyone whose kids go to school together."

More Info

30 Oct 08 - 01:16 AM (#2479605)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

Well and good. Except that Ayers--who is apparently a reformed and serious education specialist--makes not one goddamn crumb of difference to the nature, potential, merit or value of Obama. None, Nil. Ero-zay. Zilch.

Go flap your arms in some other zoo where they will believe you really are a bright yellow flamingo.

A

30 Oct 08 - 01:25 AM (#2479609)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

It was a celebration of Palestinian culture -- a night of music, dancing and a dash of politics. Local Arab Americans were bidding farewell to Rashid Khalidi, an internationally known scholar, critic of Israel and advocate for Palestinian rights, who was leaving town for a job in New York.

A special tribute came from Khalidi's friend and frequent dinner companion, the young state Sen. Barack Obama.

I wonder If McCain dines frequently with Khalidi and his wife.

I think the fact that Ayers (whom Obama claims to not associate with) and Obama jointly, gave money to Khalidi, is an important aspect.

30 Oct 08 - 01:30 AM (#2479613)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

No "off" button, I take it?

YAwn.

A

30 Oct 08 - 01:41 AM (#2479615)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

If McCain was willing to give Khalidi a half million dollars, I don't think anyone supporting McCain can say (without looking foolish) that it's not ok for Obama to have dinner with him.

And it's still a double standard to use any connections Obama has with Ayers as a way to smear him while completely ignoring McCain's connections with Ayers, and also with Oliver North, and G. Gordon Liddy...

'Does John McCain "pal around with terrorists?"

Certainly McCain's continuing "association" and relationship with the convicted Watergate burglar and domestic terrorist G. Gordon Liddy might suggest that is the case, if we are to apply the standards drawn by the McCain campaign.

In 1998, Liddy gave a fundraiser in his Scottsdale, Arizona home for McCain's senatorial re-election campaign -- the two posed for photographs together; and as recently as May, 2007, as a presidential candidate, McCain was a guest on Liddy's syndicated radio show. Inexplicably, McCain heaped praise on his host's values. During the segment, McCain said he was "proud" of Liddy, and praised Liddy's "adherence to the principles and philosophies that keep our nation great." From the program:

LIDDY: Your experience in the Hanoi Hilton is remarkable. I mean, I put in five years in a prison [for masterminding the Watergate burglary, and associated crimes], but it was here in the United States, and they didn't torture - the only torture that I had was being forced to listen to rap music from time to time.

McCAIN: Well, you know, I'm proud of you. I'm proud of your family. I'm proud to know your son, Tom, who's a great and wonderful guy. And it's always a pleasure for me to come on your program, Gordon. And congratulations on your continued success and adherence to the principles and philosophies that keep our nation great.

Which of Liddy's "principles and philosophies" was McCain referring to? Liddy's advocacy of break-ins? Firebombings? Assassinations? Kidnappings? Taking target practice with figures nicknamed Bill and Hillary?

During the same period that Bill Ayers was a member of the Weather Underground, Gordon Liddy was making plans to firebomb a Washington think tank, assassinate a prominent journalist, undertake the Watergate burglary, break into the office of Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist, and kidnap anti-war protesters at the 1972 Republican convention.

Re: Liddy's "continued success and adherence to the principles and philosophies that keep our nation great:" Did McCain mean to include Liddy's instructions to listeners of his radio show in 1994 (around the time Ayres and Obama were on a board together discussing education programs and other plots) on how to shoot Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms agents (aim for the head)?

If ATF agents attempt to curtail a citizen's gun ownership, Liddy counseled, "Well, if the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms comes to disarm you and they are bearing arms, resist them with arms. Go for a head shot; they're going to be wearing bulletproof vests."

More recently, Liddy explained making the Clintons objects of shooting practice: "I did relate that on the 4th of July of last year, when I and my family and some friends were out firing away at a properly-constructed rifle range and we ran out of targets, and so we - I drew some stick figure targets and I thought we ought to give them names. So I named them Bill and Hillary, thought it might improve my aim. It didn't. My aim is good anyway. Now, having said that, I accept no responsibility for somebody shooting up the White House."'

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carl-bernstein/ayers-and-the-mccain-g-go_b_134256.html

30 Oct 08 - 02:20 AM (#2479633)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

The Woods fund where Ayers is a board member:

This new Fund focused on welfare reform, affordable housing, the quality of public schools, race and class disparities in the juvenile justice system, and tax policy as a tool in reducing poverty. The Fund supported the concept of an expanding welfare state allocating ever-increasing amounts of money to the public school system, and the redistribution of wealth via taxes

A notable Woods board member is William Ayers, who in the 1960s was a member of the terrorist group Weatherman, and was a wanted fugitive for over a decade as a result of the group's bombing campaign; today Ayers is a Professor of Education at the University of Illinois. In 2002 the Woods Fund made a grant to Northwestern University Law School's Children and Family Justice Center, where Ayers' wife, Bernardine Dohrn, was employed. Barack Obama was one of Ayers' fellow Woods Fund board members at that time....

...The Woods Fund has given sizable grants to ... the Arab American Action Network; ... Trinity United Church of Christ (where Barack Obama was a congregant)... the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN);

30 Oct 08 - 02:30 AM (#2479637)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

So Obama gives Khalidi money and that's ok. No problem. It's only if McCain gives Khalidi money that it becomes a problem?

30 Oct 08 - 03:35 AM (#2479647)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

I don't have a problem with either of them giving him money. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of those, including McCain and his people, who are condemning Obama for something that McCain has himself done, even more so.

People who condemn others for what they (or their candidates) are doing themselves, don't get taken seriously, and for good reason. They don't deserve to be taken seriously.

30 Oct 08 - 03:42 AM (#2479648)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

On the subject of Ayers and the Wood Fund - if that one rubs off on Obama because of their association on the Chicago Annenberg Challenge board, then it also rubs off on McCain because of his association with the Annenbergs who were the ones who put Ayers on the CAC board.

That's why McCarthy was eventually discredited. Because nobody can avoid being tarred through guilt by association, including those who finger point with the most vigor.

30 Oct 08 - 05:38 AM (#2479699)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

I think that with all the time spent, for the Obama supporters, TYPING excuses, 'explanations' 're-clarifying' spinning, denying, and all, to the amount they seem compelled to do,(and at such great length), that if that same time was spend, practicing on your instruments, you'd all be one hell of a picker..(or keyboardist).....

This whole Obama-McCain debate, is really a waste of precious time. The two sides are both too polarized, while still serving the same purpose. The thread name is 'Obama is a socialist'...well, he is, okay? and with a Marxist slant. McCain is too, with a Bush/quasi fascist slant. I think there is enough data, clearly pointing that out. I also think, that the associations from both, have serious implications, that one should look at objectively...but when you do, and step back, and think about it, and all the wasted time and effort, with such 'fervor', you're stuck with one thing. To take a serious look, you have to 'get serious'.....and then when its all said and done, you look back, catch yourself, think, then grin, and say to yourself, 'Get Serious!'

30 Oct 08 - 05:53 AM (#2479711)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Some of us see it differently. And pointing out lies and double standards is not the same thing as making excuses.

I detect a strong bias in favor of McCain in the one who claims to be against both candidates. I don't think that person is really against both. I think they're definitely campaigning for McCain, but pretending to be against both candidates because that person thinks that by doing so they can fool us into not voting for Obama. LOL

30 Oct 08 - 06:44 AM (#2479744)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Notice: Earlier today I posted a post, that began with 'Mr. Machine,..' After re-reading it, after it was up, I thought there might be some misunderstanding in what I meant. Just in case, you took it wrong too, it was meant satirically in large portions.

Carol, No, I don't have a McCain bias,(even though Sarah is more attractive than Biden), but who listens to VP's once their in office(except Bush listening to Cheney).

No Carol, I'm really discouraged, about this election, and this country, for allowing this circus to go on, and get to this point. It has taken on a Monty Python-like parody, insulting everything our country has stood for, and all the hard working, industrious generations, of people, who lived, worked, fought and died, for us to enjoy the freedom and liberty we once had. I feel like all of their sacrifices, heritage, hopes, dreams and aspirations, for their families, and families to come, are turning to dust, in front of our eyes. I feel that the corruption, and decay of moral values, not only in the political arena, and in personal lives, is both decadent and deteriorating, as we are wildly cheering it on madly. I think this election has made a mockery of honesty, integrity morality, and decency. I think, that the most important issues of national security, and personal security have been artfully avoided, by both sides. I think the Constitution is being shredded before our eyes. I think that since Eisenhower,(at least), our nation has been more 'entertained' by so-called presidents, than led by statesmen. I think the last 20 years of the two family dynasty(Bush-Clinton era), has been a travesty, and has done unbelievable damage, from which we may never recover.

I could go on...and I'd be correct, too...but it's no use kidding ourselves, or propping up our enthusiasm. A month ago, 17% of voters could not decide...that's huge, if you think they can't just 'decide'. It's more like, deciding whether to drink poison, hang yourself, slit your wrists or shoot yourself in the head...vote for your favorite way to go...and that's the analogy of why undecideds can't decide..at this late in the game. In any way one looks at it, there is an ominous feeling of impending doom, hanging over this election, and nobody is being honest about it.

As for me?...Historically, some of the most beautiful art, has been pressed out of the souls of men during times like this, and captured in music, or in literature, so so and so forth. While, this crap has been going on, for as long as it has, there is another side of the heart, that can be expressed...and has been..but not so much in here, but in my music. Though it is performed instrumentally, the most common re-action has been the listener spacing out to some place of inner identification, while tears just fall out of their eyes, and silently roll down their faces, without shame, or control. This has been now the most common response,...and I'm sitting here(or in the studio) with this little jewel of a gift, from God, to touch people like this, and sit and wonder...why are people doing what they are doing to each other, so deliberately, hurtfully, and recklessly, when there is so much beauty inside us all we have to share?.......
Good Night, Regards
GfS

30 Oct 08 - 06:56 AM (#2479752)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

I'm sorry, but I am unable to accept the claim that there's no bias toward McCain by the poster in question. All of the criticism of McCain from this poster are accompanied by a criticism of Obama. This poster never criticizes McCain independently of a criticism of Obama. But they make many, many criticisms of Obama (including many accusations that have no basis in reality) independently of any criticism of McCain.

30 Oct 08 - 12:28 PM (#2479987)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: goatfell

An American a socialist that's like the Pope going to an Orange hall and singing the sash.

30 Oct 08 - 01:32 PM (#2480060)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

Obama is not a socialist in any formal sense of the word.

At best you could call him a moderate populist. He has no interest in seeing a government own the means of production, and in fact wants very much to accelerate the ownership of th emeans of production by small business owners. That is the opposite of socialism and 180 degrees out of line with Marx. So, Sawz, your reasonable sounding assertions are kind of out there in cloud-cuckoos-ville.

A

30 Oct 08 - 02:02 PM (#2480098)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Amos,You can call him anything you want..'A Rose by any other name is still a Rose' -Shakespeare.

Carol, You mean you're soliciting even MORE criticism?? As I posted before, this WHOLE, (got that?)..WHOLE 'ELECTION' has been a rather sad(to say the least) chapter, in American history. The animosity, and divisions that it brought with it, by design, I take it, has been extremely unfortunate, and damaging.

One good thing I just heard on the news, because the economy has been so bad, the illegal Mexicans are going back home.....after, helping to wreck the economy by working tax free, and shipping the money back out of our country to Mexico.

Speaking of which, Carol, this should make you happy...When McCain .reached across the aisle, so to speak, and attempted that lame bill, to give driver's licenses, to ILLEGAL immigrants, that finished him to me, as far as I was concerned!..Now smile!

30 Oct 08 - 02:20 PM (#2480122)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks

A driver's license means that the possessor has successfully passed written and practical examinations involving the operation of a motor vehicle - nothing more and nothing less. If the Federal government or anyone else thinks that an unforgeable national identity card or internal passport is necessary, let them submit legislation to Congress to require one. Using the first to substitute for the lack of the second only results in people driving around without passing those written and practical examinations - like the lady who rear-ended me a couple of years ago in West Albuquerque.

30 Oct 08 - 02:59 PM (#2480157)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

IF you do not define "socialism" by the ownership of the means of production, GfS, how do you define it? You can call a pig a rose, too, but that doesnj't mean it is qualified to be Vice-President.

A

30 Oct 08 - 03:54 PM (#2480202)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Don Firth

These folks who keep tossing the word "socialist" around and accusing candidates they don't like of being one should maybe read a book. Find out what a socialist really is.

Not that it would make much difference. . . .

Don Firth

30 Oct 08 - 05:05 PM (#2480260)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guerst from Sanity

From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 03:54 PM
....Find out what a socialist really is.

Not that it would make much difference. . . .

Parr for the course...Truth doesn't seem to matter in this years elections...So, i agree with you!

30 Oct 08 - 05:11 PM (#2480267)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

GfS--

I notice you are evading a simple question, even though you argue that the label suits Mister Obama.

Define your terms, or fold your tent, camel and all.

A

30 Oct 08 - 06:03 PM (#2480303)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

From: Amos
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 02:59 PM

You can call a pig a rose, too, but that doesnj't mean it is qualified to be Vice-President.

Look, just because Obama slipped a little in the polls, is no reason to blame his VP choice!

30 Oct 08 - 06:27 PM (#2480326)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Oh, as long as 'ultimatums' are being thrown out there by Amos Lewinski I'll put it to you this way..either by Machiavellian Principle, (McCain), or mandate,(Obama), the government is, or is going to be owning everything, and we will end up being its humble servants (read:indentured). But, I guess that's ok, for all those who get their welfare checks, and pass value judgments, on everyone else. It's all headed in the same direction..as bit by bit, the Constitution is replaced piecemeal by all these 'remedial' progressions.

So, your choice, to be controlled by corrupt corporate government,..or corrupt political machine that runs a corrupt political government?? Your choice, or hop on YOUR camel!

30 Oct 08 - 07:22 PM (#2480366)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""Brezinski, who stood out for his relatively hawkish views in an administration that often emphasized human rights, told the crowd that by invading Iraq the "United States has become engaged in what is essentially a colonial war in the post-colonial era." He also opined that the Iraq war "has discredited America worldwide," and warned that the conflict in Iraq might spread to Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan.""

Well as far as I can see, he's one hundred percent right about all of that, so maybe it's worth consideration that he may also be dead right in supporting Obama.

As an inhabitant of a country dragged willy-nilly into this insane and illegal war, I want to see the Repubs lose so badly that it takes fifty years for the party to recover. I want exactly the same in two years time for the current dishonest, ineffectual government of my own country, for slavishly following the Shrub in his oil grabbing venture.

Don T.

30 Oct 08 - 08:10 PM (#2480403)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

No argument there!..I wish that the one coming in, was the ONLY other option. That in itself, speaks volumes...The pendulum, of time, swings both ways, whether anyone 'controls' it or not. I pray that the pendulum does not swing out of control..either way!! Damage on both,the furthest apex,..correction..not over-compensation.

31 Oct 08 - 12:12 AM (#2480512)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

"People who condemn others for what they (or their candidates) are doing themselves,"

So McCain dined with Khalidi and his wife and shot the shit regularly?

Ayers Held a party for McCain's political coming out?

If McCain is all that radical why not vote for him.

31 Oct 08 - 12:38 AM (#2480523)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

So, now it appears,..and shown on the news, that Ayers writes a book, and one of the people who it is dedicated to, is Sirhan Sirhan. Book's name is 'Prairie Fire:.....'

Another thing to add to the list of things that might, and should give pause, to truly look into just how close these two were. To merely dismiss it is absolute stupid boneheadedness. Robert Kennedy was one of America's best, in the last 50 years!

No spin needed....just rather have the truth of their relationship.

31 Oct 08 - 12:40 AM (#2480525)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Looking back through the ardent protests Obama is not a socialist and that we need socialism . I am wonereing then why vote for Obama if he is not what is needed>

"The rich have been screwing the poor for centuries. That's how they got rich in the first place!"

Obama got rich by screwing the poor so why vote for him?

31 Oct 08 - 01:12 AM (#2480541)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 12:40 AM

Looking back through the ardent protests that Obama is not a socialist, and yet we need socialism, I am wondering then, why vote for Obama if he is not what is needed?

Great point Sawzaw!!!!

If socialism is what everybody wants...why vote for someone who claims he isn't one, denounces it, and all his past influences to that?? Who's got it wrong here????

31 Oct 08 - 01:14 AM (#2480542)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Like I said, giving him almost a half million dollars trumps having dinner with Khalidi any day. McCain gave him almost a half million dollars. Obama gave him a few tens of thousands of dollars and had dinner with him. McCain's a lot deeper in the hole with Khalidi than Obama is by a long way.

Ayers may not have held a party for McCain's political coming out, but the terrorist, G Gordon Liddy, did hold a fund raising event for McCain's Senate campaign.

So it is a fact that McCain is pointing fingers at Obama for stuff he has done himself.

31 Oct 08 - 01:24 AM (#2480548)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Still no answer to the question!!!!!

Perhaps it is found in Phil Ochs song 'Love me, I'm a Liberal'

"Love Me, I'm a Liberal"
Ochs Phil

Album: There But for Fortune

I cried when they shot Medgar Evers
Tears ran down my spine
I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
As though I'd lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I go to civil rights rallies
And I put down the old D.A.R.
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy
I hope every colored boy becomes a star
But don't talk about revolution
That's going a little bit too far
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
I'm glad the commies were thrown out
of the A.F.L. C.I.O. board
I love Puerto Ricans and Negros
as long as they don't move next door
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

The people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame
I can't understand how their minds work
What's the matter don't they watch Les Crain?
But if you ask me to bus my children
I hope the cops take down your name
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I read New republic and Nation
I've learned to take every view
You know, I've memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I'm almost a Jew
But when it comes to times like Korea
There's no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I vote for the democratic party
They want the U.N. to be strong
I go to all the Pete Seeger concerts
He sure gets me singing those songs
I'll send all the money you ask for
But don't ask me to come on along
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Once I was young and impulsive
I wore every conceivable pin
Even went to the socialist meetings
Learned all the old union hymns
But I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

31 Oct 08 - 01:25 AM (#2480549)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

500!!

31 Oct 08 - 01:40 AM (#2480554)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

WHo's got it wrong is the asinine proponents of the attack line. No-one said socialism is what the country needs, nor does Obama offer it. Social awareness, social compassion, better social methods, sure. That doesn't make him a socialist, and you guys are just going barmy with your hyper-associating things. Cut it out.

A

31 Oct 08 - 01:48 AM (#2480557)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Better start looking for your camel, if you can't answer the question. And knock it off with the avoidances, and subject changes!

31 Oct 08 - 02:10 AM (#2480561)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

You're projecting again, Minnie.

A

31 Oct 08 - 02:12 AM (#2480563)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Say what you want..but still no answer!

31 Oct 08 - 02:49 AM (#2480565)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

My answer to the question would be that we always have had, and we always will have, a mixture of capitalism and socialism in this country (as I have been saying here in this forum for years), and candidates finger pointing at other candidates about being "socialists" is extremely dishonest. And I've already shown that McCain is as much of a socialist as Obama.

I'm all for a mixture of capitalism and socialism. I expect that Obama will, as all other presidents before him, support our having such a mixture. Whether or not he will live up to my hopes for his presidency remains to be seen. But I'll never find out if he doesn't get elected. So that one's a no brainer.

31 Oct 08 - 02:54 AM (#2480566)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

I should also mention that one of the reasons I prefer Obama's kind of socialism over McCain's kind of socialism is because McCain's kind of socialism favors the very rich, while Obama's favors everyone else.

31 Oct 08 - 03:11 AM (#2480568)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

"McCain is pointing fingers at Obama for stuff he has done himself."

Like having dinner with Khalidi and his wife on a regular basis and shooting the shit? Like being a board member along with a domestic terrorist?

If McCain is as radical as Obama, why not vote for him? He gave even more money to Khalidi so he must be a better guy.

"Who's got it wrong here????" If what you say is true, obviously the people that vote for Obama are wrong.

31 Oct 08 - 03:18 AM (#2480569)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

These opinions seem to indicate Socialism is good and socialism is what we need.
It'd be good if he was I only wish he were. I see socialism as the normal state of affairs. If he was a socialist, all the more reason to vote for him Canadians have been praying for years that a socialist would get elected Obama is a socialist, you say? God, I hope so!! One more reason to vote for him! I's about time!
So if Obama is not a socialist, he is not the man to vote for.

On the other hand if the Republican bailout bill is socialism, They are the ones to vote for, not Obama.

31 Oct 08 - 03:24 AM (#2480571)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Yes, things he has done himself - like consorting with terrorists and having close ties with Khalidi.

McCain's definitely a radical, but he's a Neocon radical, and we've seen how much damage they can do. It's time for the Neocon radicals to go the way of the dinosaurs.

31 Oct 08 - 03:27 AM (#2480572)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

McCain's brand of socialism (these days) is corporate socialism, in which the large corporations get to keep all of the profits, and the taxpayers get to take on all of the risk. As Ms Palin is supposed to have said, "Thanks, but no thanks." Only an idiot would vote for that system if they weren't a member of the corporate elite themself.

31 Oct 08 - 03:48 AM (#2480584)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Carol echos what I have been saying all along..a mixture(I used the word 'balance'). When people hear the word 'Socialist',one conjures up a type as 'Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republic, and to ask questions about that, before one votes, IS A LEGITIMATE QUESTION!..Don't you think??

With all the hemming and hawing, from the Obama camp don't you think it reasonable, that people should be leery? There are just too many unanswered questions, and allegations surrounding him, and his past associates for MANY to feel completely comfortable with just what kind of socialism, and how much.

McCain, on the other hand, supported a 'corporate socialism', which to a lot of people, for just cause, to feel equally uncomfortable, considering, that he has been linked to supporting some of the policies of this past administration..so to ask questions, and seek answers, is also NOT UNREASONABLE!

That being said, there are also BIG questions that this whole socialist topic has many watchful citizens, frustrated about for not getting straight up answers...BECAUSE NOBODY IS ASKING THE RIGHT QUESTIONS!!!

For instance: With the North American Union, we dissolve our borders, and change our currency.....These 'treaties' are going on without ANY press, and the American public knows hardly anything about these ongoing 'arrangements'. the press must not think this an issue that interest us,..or it's being kept from us. 'You sir, being a candidate for president, what is your position on that?'(either one, preferably both!!)............'Sir, the last administration heaped upon itself unprecedented executive powers, that by any interpretation of the law, is unconstitutional, What is your position, and would you pledge to rescind them?'(both)
'Sir, in recent events extraordinary powers were given to the Treasurer to get money from the Federal Reserve, without oversight or even a vote from either house..coupled with the executive powers, which the president now has(unconstitutionally), how would you change that???...Being as you both are claiming 'Change'??'

Now, don't you think those are REASONABLE questions for the presidential candidates to be addressing, instead of 'How much did the RNC spend on Sarah Palin's clothes'?????

And Amos, you still haven't answered the earlier question. I would expected you would have dropped your pom-poms, and jumped right in with a talking point. I take it that your out gathering up your camel!

31 Oct 08 - 03:55 AM (#2480589)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

We have reason to be leery of any politician. But if we want to participate in the process (and some of us do), we have to decide who we think is most likely to make the changes we think the country needs. There's nothing wrong with people doing that. What is wrong, is if, after the candidate they voted for gets elected, they don't hold that person's feet to the fire the entire time they're in office.

I'm not leery of Obama because of those charges that a bunch of liars have been spreading about him. The people doing that want me to vote for McCain so they can continue giving my tax money to people who don't need it. The people I'm leery of are the ones who I know are trying to mislead me into voting against my best interests.

And the post I am now responding to is a prime example of why I am fairly convinced that the person who posted it is campaigning for McCain.

31 Oct 08 - 04:01 AM (#2480591)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 03:55 AM

We have reason to be leery of any politician. ---RIGHT!!!

I'm not leery of Obama because of those charges that a bunch of liars have been spreading about him.---THEN PROVE IT!!!

And the post I am now responding to is a prime example of why I am fairly convinced that the person who posted it is campaigning for McCain.---FALSE! I AM NOT A McCAIN SUPPORTER, SO LETS NOT DEFLECT LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS!!!!!

31 Oct 08 - 04:23 AM (#2480603)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Already did prove it.

31 Oct 08 - 04:40 AM (#2480614)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

I didn't say deny the charges. I meant by 'prove', I was not referring give sources as to where the lie originated from, and his RECORD to show otherwise...something concrete!..Because so far, he is not credible for being on the up and up. He has made too many mistakes to simply disregard!

31 Oct 08 - 04:47 AM (#2480616)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

typo in other one

I didn't say deny the charges. What I meant by 'prove', I was referring to giving sources as to where the lie (or misunderstanding)originated from, and show it was a lie..and his RECORD to show otherwise...something concrete!..Because so far, he is not credible for being on the up and up. He has made too many mistakes to simply disregard! By every indication, there is just too much evidence, just in his past associations!....Can't you see that nothing substantial has been given from him??..When his history shows just the opposite?

31 Oct 08 - 06:13 AM (#2480647)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Let's have another look at my statement...

I'm not leery of Obama because of those charges that a bunch of liars have been spreading about him

As we can see, what I said is that I am not leery of Obama. Let's go over that one again... I in this case, refers to me. I (me, not anyone else) am not leery of Obama. Let's take that one apart. Leery = suspicious, wary. I am not leery of Obama. That's pretty straightforward. Let's move on...

I am not leery of Obama, despite the lies that people have been telling about him. It looks like I am being told to prove that the things I am calling lies about Obama are not true. I said I already did prove them to be lies and not true.

In the context of my statement, ie: that I am not leery of Obama because of any lies that have been told about him, the operative word is "I". I am not leery of Obama. I am not leery of Obama because I have proved to my satisfaction, that the accusations being spread about Obama are lies.

Since it is my being leery, or my lack of being leery that is in question (in regards to my original statement), I don't need to prove it to the satisfaction of anyone else. I only need to prove it to my satisfaction.

I don't have to justfy my opinions to anyone, nor do I have to justify how I vote to anyone. Anyone who thinks they have a right to dictate others' opinions or their votes has some serious delusions of grandeur. (As do people who say that something I have been saying for years right here in the open forum is "echoing" something being said by someone who showed up fairly recently.)

On the subject of proving to my satisfaction that Obama is not a socialist... if he was, his health care program would be single payer, not for profit. Which is the health care model I personally prefer. He's not doing that. His approach is largely a market based one, in which the capitalist insurance companies get to continue to make a profit off of sick people. Nevertheless, it is abundantly apparent that we will not get a single payer not for profit health care system in this country any time soon, so I am willing to settle for a system in which I am able to obtain health insurance through the market (which I cannot do now).

As far as his being a radical is concerned. Let's have a look at that. For some reason, some people seem to think that Obama is the only person in the world who is not allowed to have any associations with Bill Ayers whatever without being accused of having ties to domestic terrorists. He is the only person in the whole world who is not allowed to have any associations whatever with Bill Ayers without being called a radical. The idiocy of that formulation really shouldn't require any comment from me (so sad, then, that some people seem to think that it does).

31 Oct 08 - 11:05 AM (#2480870)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

"large corporations get to keep all of the profits, and the taxpayers get to take on all of the risk."

How is this attributable to McCain without including Obama and everybody that voted for the bailout?

If the Dems are so non socialistic and the Repubs so socialistic, all the Dems had to do was vote against the bill to prove it.

After explaining that, explain how Khalidi influenced McCain with his ideology?

And explain how Khalidi did not influence Obama even though they had a long, close personal relationship and discussed ideologial matters?

31 Oct 08 - 11:28 AM (#2480892)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Guest from "Sanity"?

I missed your question at first but I believe I have answered it.

If not, ask me again and I will attempt to answer.

"Only an idiot would vote for that system if they weren't a member of the corporate elite themself."

You are taking on the air of elitism yourself and you are attributing your personal definition of the bailout bill entirely to McCain and exonerating the Democrats who voted for it, after it was ammended to suit them, as you attempted to do with GLBA.

31 Oct 08 - 11:29 AM (#2480895)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

Sawz:

You put out more codswallop per sqaure post than an army of prepubescent boys.

THere is no evidence that Barack Obama's thinking is anything other than what he says it is. Why do you keep searching so desperately from bogey-men and scary poster-monsters to try and intimidate people from using their common sense and listening to the man's thoughts as he presents them?

At least come up with some concrete evidence that any such influence exists and that if it does exist it is in any way at all a "negative" influence in some way.

LEt me put it another way: do you thik the President of the United States should be ignorant of Palestinian issues, or that by learning about them he in some way is disloyal to his friendship with ISrael? Do you think hatred is more important than information in a leader? Thse are the impressions you are producing, FWIW.

What ideas do you think Khalid might have infected Barack Obama with? WHat evidence do tyou have that he is vulnerable to such infection? I woudl guess "None".

A

31 Oct 08 - 01:35 PM (#2480986)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Buffet on the socilistic bailout bill that CC blames on McCain:

Buffett warns Congress Lawmakers face "biggest financial meltdown in American history" if they don't act.

AMERICA'S MONEY CRISIS / CNN

(New York) -- Legendary investor Warren Buffett (Obama's "unbelievable friend" and "one of the people I listen to.")warned Congressional leaders Saturday night of "the biggest financial meltdown in American history" if they did not act to secure the financial system.

Buffett, by telephone, was consulted by lawmakers who were in marathon talks on Capitol Hill to forge a deal on the administration's $700 billion economic bailout plan, according to two sources.

One lawmaker in the negotiations said that the participants called Warren Buffett to get his help in gauging potential market reaction.

Congressional leaders said shortly after midnight Saturday that they had reached a tentative deal. Members of both parties and Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson were aiming to craft final legislation by Sunday evening -- in time for the start of financial markets around the world...

31 Oct 08 - 01:42 PM (#2480994)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Sawzaw,I believe you misunderstood. I am not placing the blame on McCain anymore than Obama, ok?

CarolC, I believe you clarified your leeriness of Obama...or lack of it, but not much else, as to the other bigger questions.

The bigger questions, that nobody knows how to answer, because the candidates, and the media is avoiding it(especially Obama..but both) is: 'If the North American Union, becomes inclusive of Mexico, AND CENTRAL AMERICA(down to Panama, as planned), Will Obama's welfare re-distribution of our paychecks, be inclusive of all the North American continent, including Canada?'
NOW, ISN'T THAT WORTH ASKING???????????????????

31 Oct 08 - 01:53 PM (#2481001)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

http://www.zombietime.com/prairie_fire/pfdedication2.jpg

31 Oct 08 - 01:56 PM (#2481005)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

I don't know for sure if this "North American Union" is a hoax or if it is real.

31 Oct 08 - 02:08 PM (#2481014)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

So far, it looks like a hoax to me.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/nau.asp

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/amero.asp

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/corsis_dull_hatchet.html

Corsi's Track Record

Corsi is a renowned conspiracy theorist who says that George Bush is attempting to create a North American Union (we looked at that here) and that there is evidence that the World Trade Center may have collapsed because it was seeded with explosives. More recently, Corsi claimed that Obama released a fake birth certificate. We've debunked that twice now. And, as our colleagues at PolitiFact.com found, many of the themes in "The Obama Nation" are reworked versions of bogus chain e-mail smears.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/wrong_paul.html

According to Paul, a secret organization run by unaccountable government figures is in league with foreign corporations who are all bent on usurping American sovereignty. That's not from the script for a new X-Files movie. (Or not that we know of.) It's the gist of Paul's description of a supposed "NAFTA Superhighway." Paul describes it on his Web site as "a ten-lane colossus the width of several football fields, with freight and rail lines, fiber-optic cable lines, and oil and natural gas pipelines running alongside." And that's not all. According to Paul, the ultimate plan is to form a North American Union with a single currency and unlimited travel within its borders, all headed up by "an unholy alliance of foreign consortiums and officials from several governments" that together form the shadowy "quasi-government organization called the 'Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America,' or SPP."

The problem with Paul's claim is that there are no plans to build a NAFTA Superhighway. Or a North American Union, for that matter. And while the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America does exist, it's just a boring bureaucracy.

Like many conspiracy theories, this one is a mixture of fact and fiction. improvements to existing roads, but is not lobbying for, or planning to build, any new thoroughfares. From the NASCO That scary-looking map, with lines that rumor suggested were drawn to scale, is the product of an actual group called North America's SuperCorridor Organization (NASCO), which is a consortium of public and private entities. But contrary to conspiracy theorists, the map does not show a new highway. Those bright blue lines show only I-35 and I-29 – interstates that already exist. On its Web site, NASCO says it and some of the local governments along I-35 have been referring to that route as the "NAFTA Superhighway" for years.

NASCO: "NAFTA Superhighway" - As of late, there has been much media attention given to the "new, proposed NAFTA Superhighway". NASCO and the cities, counties, states and provinces along our existing Interstate Highways 35/29/94 (the NASCO Corridor) have been referring to I-35 as the 'NAFTA Superhighway' for many years, as I-35 already carries a substantial amount of international trade with Mexico, the United States and Canada. There are no plans to build a new NAFTA Superhighway - it exists today as I-35.

http://cdn.factcheck.org/imagefiles/2008.02.06_wrongpaul/NAFTA%20Superhighway.jpg

31 Oct 08 - 02:57 PM (#2481053)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

Good on ya, Sawz, for looking behind the rabble-rousing and seeking facts.

A

31 Oct 08 - 07:07 PM (#2481229)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:56 PM

I don't know for sure if this "North American Union" is a hoax or if it is real.

Well, sure worth asking about.....

31 Oct 08 - 09:18 PM (#2481313)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

"large corporations get to keep all of the profits, and the taxpayers get to take on all of the risk."

Obama has promised that the taxpayers will be paid back first, and he will also use the taxpayers' money to create jobs though investing in infrastructure and in green technologies, unlike McCain who just wants to give free money and more tax breaks to the companies that are the cause of the problems.

31 Oct 08 - 09:26 PM (#2481317)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

McCain must already have been in sympathy with Khalidi's ideology, otherwise I doubt he would have given him more than a half million dollars (almost a half million on one occasion, and there were other occasions in which McCain gave him money).

On whether or not Obama was influenced by Khalidi's ideology, being someone's friend doesn't mean that they will absorb that friend's ideology by osmosis or anything. I have friends and relatives who are of the right wing, but so far, their ideology has not rubbed off on me. All people need to do to know where Obama stands on this particular issue is to look at his record. (A stance and a record that I do not agree with myself, incidentally.)

31 Oct 08 - 09:31 PM (#2481319)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

We were asked whether or not is reasonable for people to be leery of Obama. I answered the question from my own perspective. I can't speak for anyone else. If someone else feels a need to be leery of Obama, that's their business. I can only answer that question from my own perspective.

31 Oct 08 - 09:36 PM (#2481323)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

My guess about that Sirhan Sirhan dedication is that Ayers is one of the people who believe that Sirhan Sirhan was set up, but that he wasn't the person who actually killed Bobby Kennedy. There actually are a lot of people who see it that way. Here's an example...

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/FBI/Who_Killed_R_Kennedy.html

01 Nov 08 - 04:31 AM (#2481430)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

'Over $250,000...uh.hmm..I meant $150,000.....Richardson, why did you tell them we talked about $120,000...Jeez, people will think I'm lying to them, again...I want them to forget I voted for $42,000..0r was it $41,000 ????// Awww don't worry, they're blind with enthusiasm...anything I tell them they'll think is the truth.....Now go out and book another T.V. spot!! Just don't let them forget, that they love me!!

01 Nov 08 - 05:02 AM (#2481441)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

That's another example of the lies that people are telling voters in order to try to fool them into voting against their own financial interests.

The 250,000 figure, which Obama has consistently used in his platform, is the income under which people will not have their taxes raised. He has consistently said this. He said, no one making under $250,000 will see their income tax raised. He has never said that people between $200,000 and $250,000 would get a tax cut.

The $150,000 figure is the income below which people will experience a reduction in their taxes.

The Obama campaign has been perfectly consistent in who they've said would get a tax cut, whose taxes would remain the same, and who would see their taxes increase. The only thing that has changed is which particular lies the McCain campaign has decided to tell on any particular day.

01 Nov 08 - 05:10 AM (#2481443)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Here's the figures. In my last post I said "no one" would see a tax increase with an income under $250,000, but I should have said, no families. Here's what Obama's website says (and has said, all along)...

$250,000 and under, no tax increase for families
$200,000 and under, no tax increase for individuals

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Tax_Plan_Comparison_FINAL.pdf

01 Nov 08 - 05:33 AM (#2481449)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

I guess you missed Bill Richardson's statement on video, being played on the news.....

01 Nov 08 - 05:56 AM (#2481465)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

According to the Obama website, the $150,000 figure is for married couples. So I'm guessing the $120,000 figure is for people filing individually. Obama has said that 95% of working Americans will have their taxes cut under his plan.

Under McCain's plan, the people who make the most will have their taxes cut the most. Those who make less will have their taxes cut less. Under McCain's plan, for instance, JtS and I will experience a very small tax cut, only a few hundred dollars. Under Obama's plan, our taxes will be cut a few thousand dollars. Plus, as small business owners, we will not have to pay capital gains taxes, and we'll receive a tax credit for providing our employees (us) with health insurance. We're probably in the same tax bracket as the majority of people in the US.

01 Nov 08 - 06:31 AM (#2481479)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: akenaton

As in the UK, the people who make the most money actually pay proportionately less tax.....the "getout clause"is built into the system.
The taxation systems both in US and UK, are corrupt and unfair....the rich just opt out...they do something more profitable with their money, using one of the many loopholes.
The poor in comparison, need all their earnings just to survive and so are caught in the corrupt taxation trap.
The bullshit being spouted by both candidates will make no difference to this situation.....simply tinkering with a failed system.

You had the chance to get up off your arses and given Bush's universal unpopularity, give your country a real fresh start, but it appears you've been conned into continuing with "corporatelite" Obama.
Its still Corporate America......but with a shiny, smiley face...Ake

01 Nov 08 - 06:45 AM (#2481485)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

We shall see.

01 Nov 08 - 07:59 AM (#2481525)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert

Obama has remained consistent with his tax proposals from the very beginning and that is why the McCain campaugn has put so much energy into trying to make it *sound* otherwise... Remember, the Repubs still believe in Roveian politics where you attack the strenght of your opponent...

They used it against a parapalegic Vietnam vet back in 2000 to win a ZSenate seat from S.B. or was it Georgia??? Anyway, the guy was attacked for his forien policy views... I'd say that a guy who lost three limbs in Vietnam has all the right in the world to voice his views but the Rovians painted him as unAmerican...

This is the only way they know to campaign since they do not have any real, ahhhh, friggin' ideas opf their own other than letting the lobbiests run the country...

B~

01 Nov 08 - 06:11 PM (#2481937)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Amos:

I always try to check things out before I post them. I believe they are facts and not just a bunch of opinions, mo matter if 90% of people think something is true, it may not be true.

Yes, I am subject to knee jerk reactions and may jump too quick but I am also ready to retract something if it turns out to be false.

As to Obama being infected with something from Khalidi or Ayers, How would anybody ever prove anything about one person influencing another?

However people do not associate with someone they don't like or do not get along with.

Then there is the axiom that you are known by the friends you keep. Obama has never admitted to being friends with Ayers but admits to being friends with Khalidi and discussing ideologies with him.

Every time I check out the validity of something about Obama, the name of another former terrorist, Muslim extremist, radical, Marxist, convicted felon etc pops up. If is as intelligent as he proclaims, why didn't he have the good judgment to stay clear of these people? Or does political expediency trump morals?

I seems to me that the Chicago political establishment is a nest of Liberal elitists and you can't work your way up with out supporting them and owing them favors. They look down on the average American and tell him he is disadvantaged, down trodden, poor etc. They believe they know what is best for them like their flock of sheep.

Fuck'em all.

01 Nov 08 - 06:35 PM (#2481951)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Barry Finn

"However people do not associate with someone they don't like or do not get along with."

When I was working construction, for the past 35 yrs just about every day I had to work with & get along with people I didn't like & didn't want to assocate with but I did it & I wouldn't have been able to keep my job if I didn't.

If Obama has to keep a distance from all the people hat you believe he needds to keep a distance from, weither he knows their background or not the he'll have to move into a cave. A great place for him to be running a campain from.

Barry

01 Nov 08 - 06:41 PM (#2481959)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

McCain has admitted to being friends with Oliver North and G. Gordon Liddy, two known terrorists. How do we know they haven't "infected" him? And as they say, a person is known by the friends they keep.

01 Nov 08 - 07:11 PM (#2481984)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Little Hawk

I have a very good friend who is an out and out reactionary, basically something pretty close to a White supremacist, and we agree on very little when it comes to politics or social issues. But he's still a good friend, because we share many common interests in folk music and because he has proven to be a 100% honest and reliable friend through thick and thin and can always be depended on when the chips are down.

He has said things that would have created a scandal for ANY presidential candidate if you can establish guilt by mere association with someone.

Now, if I was running for president, some asshole in the other party would hire people to snoop around, find about about my friend, and use it to attack MY credibility even though I do not agree with my friend's political opinions at all.

Thank God, however, I am not running for president. Nor would I, even if I had all the qualifications and experience. It isn't worth the shit you have to put up with when you're put in that position.

01 Nov 08 - 07:43 PM (#2482003)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

"wants to give free money" How so? I thought free money was from Obama to people that did not pay any income tax.

01 Nov 08 - 07:55 PM (#2482008)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

McCain's only plan for fixing our economic mess is to cut corporate taxes even further than they already are. He doesn't have any plan to make sure the taxpayers get paid back for the handouts we're giving to the big banks and corporations. That's corporate welfare - free money for the big corporations from us taxpayers, in the amount of more than a trillion dollars.

01 Nov 08 - 08:35 PM (#2482034)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Little Hawk

Sawzaw, income taxes are not the only taxes. About half the taxes the average person pays in each year are NOT income tax, they are other forms of taxation that are built into society at every level of monetary exchange, and everybody pays them, including the poorest people. They are inescapable unless you vanish into the wilderness, live off the land in a leanto or a teepee, and stop using money altogether.

To give poor people a tax rebate is to give them a rebate from all those other taxes...not from income tax they never paid.

01 Nov 08 - 09:23 PM (#2482075)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

However people do not associate with someone they don't like or do not get along with.

Of course they do, in all walks of life. And politicians, and other show business types more than most.

You can't really think people in politics or show business actually like each other, Bush likes McCain? Bill and Hilary Clinton like Obama? Don't be daft.

01 Nov 08 - 10:49 PM (#2482123)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

From: akenaton
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:31 AM

The bullshit being spouted by both candidates will make no difference

You had the chance to get up off your arses and given Bush's universal unpopularity, give your country a real fresh start, but it appears you've been conned into continuing with "corporatelite" Obama.
Its still Corporate America......but with a shiny, smiley face...Ake

Now, as to associations, as stated by Little Hawk, and others,..I don't particularly agree with ALL Akenaton's political philosophies, however, she is dead on right on this one

01 Nov 08 - 11:58 PM (#2482155)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

Thank God, however, I am not running for president.

LH:

I agree wholeheartedly!

Sawz:

Thanks--you sound more reasonable these days.

There is a world of difference between keeping company with someone and dealing with them in your work life.

Obama has a strong friendship with David Axelrod, for example. I suspect he has never had a strong link of affinity with Ayers, or any of the other folks you are alarmed about. I think you have misread the man's character completely.

A

02 Nov 08 - 12:07 AM (#2482160)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Little Hawk

I don't think you get my drift, Amos... ;-)

Look, if by some hideous twist of fate I were running for president of the USA, I would never have the ghost of a chance of getting elected anyway, because my opinions are comparable to those of Dennis Kucinich...and they wouldn't even let him into the later Democratic primary debates. It is inconceivable that I could be elected president, given my views. It is inconceivable that either the Democrats or Republicans would want me as their candidate. I despise both those political parties.

02 Nov 08 - 01:09 AM (#2482178)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

FBI Asserts Cuba Aided Weathermen

By NICHOLAS M. HORROCK The New York Times

WASHINGTON, Oct. 8 - Cuban espionage agents operating in the United States and Canada supplied limited aid to the Weather Underground, a militant antiwar organization, in the late 1960's and early 1970's, according to a top-secret report of the Federal Bureau of Investigation

Some technical assistance was also provided by North Vietnam, the report says, but there was no evidence that the Soviet Union, China or Eastern European nations ever made direct attempts to stir up American dissidents.

The 400-page report, a copy of which has been obtained by The New. York Times, was prepared in August 1976 after the Department of Justice opened a criminal investigation into charges that bureau agents had committed burglaries and carried out illegal mail openings and wiretaps in their attempts to apprehend Weathermen fugitives.

The closely held report - only 10 copies were sent to the bureau director, Clarence M. Kelley - was aimed at establishing that members of the Weather Underground were operating as secret agents of a foreign power and were thus legitimate targets of counterintelligence measures.

The report disclosed, however, that Communist bloc nations had given little tangible support to the American antiwar movement. The report was based upon information from the Central Intelligence Agency, several foreign intelligence services, a wide range of American and foreign police agencies, electronic eavesdropping and reports of several confidential informers.

The following were some of the key points:

-Three years before militant members of the students for a Democratic Society split off to form the Weather Underground Organization in 1970, North Vietnamese and Cuban officials were influencing radical antiwar strategy through foreign meetings. Many of these meetings were held in Communist countries, including Hungary, Czechoslovakia and North Vietnam,

-The conduit for contact in the United States was a group of intelligence agents assigned to the staff of the Cuban Mission to the United Nations in New York. These agents arranged for American youths to be inculcated with revolutionary fervor and, occasionally, to be trained in practical weaponry by Cuban military officers through the so-called Venceremos Brigades.

-After the Weathermen went "underground" in 1970 and many of them were being sought by the F.B.I. on criminal charges, Cuban intelligence officers were in touch with them from both the New York mission and the Cuban Embassy in Canada.

-Cuban officials helped several Weather Underground adherents who feared arrest in the United States to travel to Prague, Czechoslovakia, and then to reenter the United Slates surreptitiously.

The report linked the growing militancy of certain members of the Students for a Democratic Society, which resulted in the so-called Days of Rage in Chicago in 1969; to North Vietnamese advice the year before to choose youngsters who would battle with the police.

The North Vietnamese, according to S.D.S. literature of the time, had suggested that the antiwar movement needed not just intellectual protesters but also physically rugged recruits....

02 Nov 08 - 01:12 AM (#2482201)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Who did Liddy's people bomb? Seen him standing on the flag recently? Does he run away and hide when questioned then call the police? Does he address people as Comrade?

I guess Bobert can't figure out those ages. Too difficult.

02 Nov 08 - 01:15 AM (#2482180)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Little Hawk

I shouldn't wonder that they (Cuba and North Vietnam) might have helped American dissidents like the Weathermen. Why wouldn't they? Now you should look into what American government and corporate agents have done all over Latin America and the Third World if you want something that will really curl your hair. I'm talking about assassinations, coups, regime change, invasion, torture, mass murder, and the killing of many, many thousands of Third World people in the name of corporate free enterprise and profit.

There's a war going on out there all the time. Your error is in assuming that the "angels" are on your own government's side. They're not.

02 Nov 08 - 01:25 AM (#2482208)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

CCs $500,000 "gift" from Mccain to Khalidi she has been hooting about:

Factcheck.org

Since 1993, McCain has been chairman of the International Republican Institute â€" a nonprofit and nonpartisan group that helps promote democratic practices and institutions across the globe.

The IRI, in an October 29 press release, said it "gave grants" to the Center for Palestinian Research and Studies for polling in the Palestinian territories of the West Bank and Gaza. The IRI said its "relationship with CPRS ended in 2000, and we understand that it no longer exists."

"We understand that Rashid Khalidi was one of the many founders of CPRS, and we understand that he was for some amount of time, a board member," the IRI said.

A defunct CPRS Web site lists Khalidi was one of the seven people who founded the group in March 1993. CPRS described itself as "an independent academic research and policy analysis institution."

"Because CPRS is independent of political factions, it is in a unique position of being able to serve as a forum for meetings of Palestinian and international researchers from various political backgrounds and ideologies in a free academic and professional atmosphere," the group said.

John McCain has never met Rashid Khalidi, while Barack Obama has acknowledged a close friendship with him.

The Verdict: True. There was a relationship in the 1990s between the IRI, chaired by McCain, and the CPRS, co-founded by Khalidi, which received IRI funding.

02 Nov 08 - 01:33 AM (#2482187)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

...........and not in the corporations that buy parties, candidates and presidents!!...Wait till you get a load of their advertising campaign..its called 'the news'!

02 Nov 08 - 01:52 AM (#2482193)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

You stick with Cuba and Vietnam, I'll stick with the US. Freedom is OK with me.

"corporations that buy parties, candidates and presidents" That must be Soros you're talking about.

02 Nov 08 - 02:12 AM (#2482217)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 01:52 AM

"corporations that buy parties, candidates and presidents" That must be Soros you're talking about.

..and Murdoch, and Westinghouse, and Goldman Sachs, and AIG, and Geico, and Dow Chemical, and Exxon, and BP, and Lilly, and NBC. and Boeing, and McDonald-Douglass, and Alcoa, and GM, and Warren Buffett, and Mattel, and Pfizer, and Mobil, and Lockeed, and Ford, and Hunts, and Hollywood movie industry, and General Electric, and Colt, and Bell, and General Dynamics, and Chrysler, and Singer, and General Foods, and Microsoft, and AOL, and Caterpillar, and...well you get the idea...

02 Nov 08 - 02:58 AM (#2482231)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

The instructions I received from Billy Ayers was that the bombs to be used in Detroit must have shrapnel (fence staples, specifically) and fire potential (propane bottles). The intention was to kill police officers.

When I objected to Billy Ayers that more innocent people would be killed in the restaurant, he replied, "Innocent people have to die in a revolution." Billy also acknowledged during a criticism session in Buffalo that Bernadine placed the bomb at the Park Police Station which resulted in the death of Police Officer McDonnell.

02 Nov 08 - 03:22 AM (#2482235)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/11/bill_ayers_dedicated_his_1974.html

Sawzaw, and Rig...you'll like this one..
..Obama groupies will not!

02 Nov 08 - 04:17 AM (#2482257)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

LOLOL

Well, the election is only a couple of days away. It doesn't look like those kinds of ugly smear tactics are working for the McCain people. In fact, it looks like the effect they're having is the opposite of the one the McCain people intend. And that's as it should be. Time for me to not waste any more time responding to the smear tactics and go hit the pavement to get out the votes for Obama.

02 Nov 08 - 04:21 AM (#2482258)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

But I will say, as I have also said on other threads, I feel pretty confident that Ayers believes that Sirhan Sirhan did not kill Bobby Kennedy, that he blames the US government for Kennedy's death, and that he dedicated the book to Kennedy because he believes that Sirhan Sirhan was set up to take blame for a murder he did not commit.

02 Nov 08 - 04:22 AM (#2482260)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Correction: *he dedicated the book to Sirhan Sirhan

02 Nov 08 - 06:21 AM (#2482311)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Ah, what the hell...

McCain Transition Chief Aided Saddam In Lobbying Effort

William Timmons, the Washington lobbyist who John McCain has named to head his presidential transition team, aided an influence effort on behalf of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein to ease international sanctions against his regime.

The two lobbyists who Timmons worked closely with over a five year period on the lobbying campaign later either pleaded guilty to or were convicted of federal criminal charges that they had acted as unregistered agents of Saddam Hussein's government.

During the same period beginning in 1992, Timmons worked closely with the two lobbyists, Samir Vincent and Tongsun Park, on a previously unreported prospective deal with the Iraqis in which they hoped to be awarded a contract to purchase and resell Iraqi oil. Timmons, Vincent, and Park stood to share at least $45 million if the business deal went through.

Timmons' activities occurred in the years following the first Gulf War, when Washington considered Iraq to be a rogue enemy state and a sponsor of terrorism. His dealings on behalf of the deceased Iraqi leader stand in stark contrast to the views his current employer held at the time.

John McCain strongly supported the 1991 military action against Iraq, and as recently as Sunday described Saddam Hussein as a one-time menace to the region who had "stated categorically that he would acquire weapons of mass destruction, and he would use them wherever he could."

Timmons declined to comment for this story. An office manager who works for him said that he has made it his practice during his public career to never speak to the press. Timmons previously told investigators that he did not know that either Vincent or Park were acting as unregistered agents of Iraq. He also insisted that he did not fully understand just how closely the two men were tied to Saddam's regime while they collaborated.

But testimony and records made public during Park's criminal trial, as well as other information uncovered during a United Nations investigation, suggest just the opposite. Virtually everything Timmons did while working on the lobbying campaign was within days conveyed by Vincent to either one or both of Saddam Hussein's top aides, Tariq Aziz and Nizar Hamdoon. Vincent also testified that he almost always relayed input from the Iraqi aides back to Timmons.

Talking points that Timmons produced for the lobbyists to help ease the sanctions, for example, were reviewed ahead of time by Aziz, Vincent testified in court. Proposals that Timmons himself circulated to U.S. officials as part of the effort were written with the assistance of the Iraqi officials, and were also sent ahead of time with Timmons' approval to Aziz, other records show.

Moreover, there was a major financial incentive at play for Timmons. The multi-million dollar oil deal that he was pursuing with the two other lobbyists would only be possible if their efforts to ease sanctions against Iraq were successful. *

02 Nov 08 - 06:35 AM (#2482317)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

In February 1988, the Washington Post reported that McCain personally (and relatively "recently") gave the Contras $400.

No one can doubt that acts of terror were committed by the Contras. Human Rights Watch concluded in 1989 that "the Contras were major and systematic violators of the most basic standards of the laws of armed conflict, including by launching indiscriminate attacks on civilians, selectively murdering non-combatants, and mistreating prisoners." Human Rights Watch also criticized acts of terror by the Sandinista government, but called the Contras "a force that has shown itself incapable of operating without consistently committing gross abuses in violation of the laws of war."

Here are some eyewitness reports of the terrorism committed by the Contras:

They took out their knives and stuck them under his fingernails. After they took his fingernails off, then they broke his elbows. Afterwards they gouged out his eyes. Then they took their bayonets and made all sorts of slices in his skin all around his chest, arms, and legs. They then took his hair off and the skin of his scalp. When they saw there was nothing left to do with him, they threw gasoline on him and burned him. The next day they started the same thing with a 13 year old girl. They did more or less the same, but they did other things to her too. First, she was utilized, raped by all the officers. They stripped her and threw her in a small room, they went in one by one. Afterwards they took her out tied and blindfolded. Then they began the same mutilating, pulling her fingernails out and cutting off her fingers, breaking her arms, gouging out her eyes and all they did to the other fellow. They cut her legs and stuck an iron rod into her womb.

Rosa had her breasts cut off. Then they cut into her chest and took out her heart. The men had their arms broken and their testicles cut off and their eyes poked out. They were then killed by slitting their throats and pulling the tongue out through the slit.

A congressional committee confirmed at the time that the Contras "raped, tortured and killed unarmed civilians, including children" and that "groups of civilians, including pregnant women and children were burned, dismembered, blinded and beheaded."

Harold Pinter recalled the testimony of Father John Metcalf:

I am in charge of a parish in the north of Nicaragua. My parishioners built a school, a health centre, a cultural centre. We have lived in peace. A few months ago a Contra force attacked the parish. They destroyed everything: the school, the health centre, the cultural centre. They raped nurses and teachers, slaughtered doctors, in the most brutal manner. They behaved like savages. Please demand that the US government withdraw its support from this shocking terrorist activity.

And no one can doubt that McCain knew about these acts of terror when he was publicly funding them. On February 10, 1987, the New York Times noted that a 170-page report by Americas Watch determined about the Contras, "They still engage in selective but systematic killing of persons they perceive as representing the Government, in indiscriminate attacks against civilians or in disregard for their safety, and in outrages against the personal dignity of prisoners. The Contras also engage in widespread kidnapping of civilians, apparently for purposes of recruitment as well as intimidation." The report noted, "The escalating brutality of Contra practices leads Americas Watch to conclude that disregard for the rights of civilians has become a de facto policy of the Contra forces."

McCain also must have known that the Contras were engaged in drug smuggling while he was handing them money. On August 5, 1987, the CIA Central American Task Force chief testified before the Iran-Contra Committee about the Contra drug trafficking: "It is not a couple of people. It is a lot of people."(pdf, p. 38)

In addition to his personal support for the Contras, McCain has a supporter who is far more of a terrorist supporter than Bill Ayers. His name is Oliver North. Ayers was never convicted for any crime, and there's no evidence he ever killed anyone. North, by Contrast, was convicted (he got away with it because his testimony to Congress provided him with immunity).

There can be no doubt about North's connection to terrorism. Under the direction of North, the US covertly sold $48 million in battlefield missiles and other weapons to Iran, even though Iran was classified by the US government as a sponsor of international terrorism. North then illegally used some of this money to help finance the Contras.

So what is the McCain campaign's position toward this terrorist supporter? Have they denounced his views? No, McCain's own campaign website promotes the endorsement of him by North. McCain also supported North's 1994 campaign for the US Senate in Virginia.

The Washington Post blog did ask the McCain campaign, "Is McCain pleased to receive North's endorsement, given the fact that the failed GOP senatorial candidate was convicted in 1989 of shredding documents, accepting an illegal gratuity and aiding and abetting in the obstruction of Congress?" The McCain campaign declined to criticize North or remove their link to his endorsement: "We'll let the comments in the release stand," wrote spokeswoman Jill Hazelbaker in an e-mail.

Obviously, McCain has no regrets about supporting the Contras. McCain named Otto Reich as his adviser on Latin American issues, even though Reich was involved in the Iran-Contra scandal. In the mid-1980s, Reich ran the U.S. Office of Public Diplomacy and illegally coordinated with the CIA to run a "White Propaganda" campaign planting bogus op-eds written by his speechwriters in newspapers. In 1987, the Republican Comptroller-General formally found that Reich had broken the law. As ambassador to Venezuela, Reich arranged the release and asylum of Cuban-American terrorist Orlando Bosch, who had planted a bomb on a Cuban airliner in 1976, killing all 73 people on board. *

02 Nov 08 - 09:11 AM (#2482389)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

Lo and behold. terrorism raises its ugly head behind our own lines. What a surprise.

Say, Sawz, did you know McCain contributed to the Contras?

A

02 Nov 08 - 10:53 AM (#2482459)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Little Hawk

Everyone wants freedom, Sawzaw...they want their own form of it. To the Cubans and Vietnamese, freedom meant self-government of their own lands, free of domination by foreign governments and foreign business interests. It meant ending colonialism, kicking out the Mafia and the foreign bosses and the CIA. It meant self-rule.

Got it? You don't get it because you weren't born a Third Worlder in a land being ruthlessly exploited by rich American (or French) interests.

Your freedom in your own land has no bearing on the matter whatsoever, because it is not extended to the suffering populations in other lands which your business people rape and exploit for their profits. Your country doesn't promote freedom outside its own borders. It promotes exploitation, war, slaughter, torture, and corruption...all for the sake of corporate profit.

And even in your own land your freedoms are being taken away, bit by bit. The Patriot Act was a big step in taking them away.

02 Nov 08 - 11:15 AM (#2482480)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Mike M

Ask Obama which way middle income earners taxes will go when he allows the Bush tax cuts to expire in 2010? Well, Obama won't technically be raising THOSE taxes then will he? Won't matter, his policy to BANKRUPT the coal industry and shut off 50% of our electricity in the process with this FRAUD AGW nonsense will have done so much damage by then that we'll all have broken backs trying to grow potatoes in our back yards ...

02 Nov 08 - 11:23 AM (#2482484)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Study: Bush Tax Cuts Favor Wealthy

(CBS/AP) President Bush's tax cuts since 2001 have shifted more of the tax burden from the nation's rich to middle-class families, according to a study released Friday by the Congressional Budget Office.

The tax rate declined across all income levels — but more so in the top brackets, the report said.

The study found that the effective tax rate for the top 1 percent of taxpayers dropped from 33 percent in 2001 to 26.7 percent this year, a decline of 19 percent. The middle 20 percent of taxpayers saw a decline of 4 percent.

The study, requested by congressional Democrats in May, quickly provided fodder for the presidential campaign over the fairness of more than $1 trillion in tax cuts Mr. Bush has pushed through Congress since taking office.

"Over the last four years, the burden of taxes has shifted from the wealthy to the middle class," Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry said at a campaign event in Springfield, Oregon. "The middle class is paying more taxes."

The White House defended Mr. Bush's tax cuts, saying those in lower- and middle-income brackets also benefited.

People in the top 20 percent of incomes, averaging $182,700 a year, saw their share of federal taxes decline from 65.3 percent of total payments in 2001 to 63.5 percent this year, according to the study by congressional budget analysts.

In contrast, middle-class taxpayers — with incomes ranging from $51,500 to $75,600 — bear a greater tax burden. Those making an average of $75,600 had the biggest jump in their share of taxes, from 18.5 percent of all payments in 2001 to 19.5 percent this year.

"George W. Bush keeps trying to mislead Americans into thinking we're turning the corner, but truth is that he is turning his back on middle-class families," Kerry spokesman Phil Singer said. "The Bush policies are exacerbating the squeeze that working families have been feeling for the last four years."

Bush-Cheney campaign spokesman Steve Schmidt said, "Because of President Bush's policies every American pays less in taxes today than they did before he became president...John Kerry has promised to raise taxes during the campaign. That is the clear choice Americans will have in the fall elections."

The study is based on figures in 2001 and assumes no changes in wealth distribution from increases in income, dividends or capital gains. *

02 Nov 08 - 11:34 AM (#2482492)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

CNN's Cooper said McCain opposes rolling back Bush tax cuts "which Democrats say favor the rich" - but McCain previously said the same thing

Summary: CNN's Anderson Cooper stated: "On taxes, Senator McCain pledges not to roll back the Bush tax cuts, which Democrats say favor the rich." In fact, it is not just Democrats who say that the Bush tax cuts favor the rich. McCain himself made the same claim in 2001, in explaining his opposition to the tax cuts, a fact that Cooper did not mention.

During the October 27 edition of CNN's Anderson Cooper 360, Cooper stated: "On taxes, Senator [John] McCain pledges not to roll back the Bush tax cuts, which Democrats say favor the rich." However, Cooper did not note that McCain himself, in explaining his then-opposition to the Bush tax cuts, also said they disproportionately benefitted the rich. While McCain now supports making the tax cuts permanent, in 2001 and 2003, he voted against them. As Media Matters for America has documented, in 2001, McCain explained his vote by stating: "I cannot in good conscience support a tax cut in which so many of the benefits go to the most fortunate among us, at the expense of middle class Americans who most need tax relief." Furthermore, on the April 11, 2004, edition of NBC's Meet the Press, McCain reaffirmed his rationale for originally opposing the Bust tax cuts by stating, "I voted against the tax cuts because of the disproportionate amount that went to the wealthy Americans." *

In May 2001, McCain voted against the final version of Bush's initial $1.35 trillion tax-cut package. In a floor statement explaining his opposition, McCain said that while he supported an earlier version of the bill "that provided more tax relief to middle income Americans," he could not "in good conscience support a tax cut in which so many of the benefits go to the most fortunate among us, at the expense of middle class Americans who most need tax relief." In 2003, McCain voted against legislation to accelerate the tax reductions enacted in the 2001 bill and to cut dividends and capital-gains taxes. *

During the October 23 edition of Fox News' Studio B, general assignment reporter Steve Brown accused Sen. Barack Obama of "leav[ing] out" the purported reason Sen. John McCain initially opposed the Bush tax cuts, which Brown claimed was "because they didn't match up with corresponding cuts coming out of the budget." In fact, as Media Matters for America has repeatedly documented, when McCain voted against the tax cuts in 2001, the reason he gave in his floor statement was not that they were not accompanied by spending cuts; rather, McCain stated, "I cannot in good conscience support a tax cut in which so many of the benefits go to the most fortunate among us, at the expense of middle class Americans who most need tax relief." Indeed, during the February 3 edition of Fox Broadcasting Co.'s Fox News Sunday, host Chris Wallace told McCain: "[Y]ou've been saying, 'Well, the reason was because they didn't have spending cuts along with it.' Senator, we checked your speech before the final vote in the 2001 tax cut. ... You never once mentioned the fact that there weren't spending cuts."

On the April 11, 2004, edition of NBC's Meet the Press, McCain reaffirmed his rationale for originally opposing the Bust tax cuts, stating: "I voted against the tax cuts because of the disproportionate amount that went to the wealthy Americans. I would clearly support not extending those tax cuts in order to help address the deficit. But the middle-income tax credits, the families, the child tax credits, the marriage tax credits, all of those I would keep." As Media Matters has noted, McCain has since reversed his position on the tax cuts -- he now supports their permanent extension. *

02 Nov 08 - 12:19 PM (#2482519)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

"corporations that buy parties, candidates and presidents"
Chris Dodd Donors: $11,106,498

Citigroup Inc        $314,194
United Technologies        $262,700
SAC Capital Partners        $242,900
American International Group        $223,478
Royal Bank of Scotland        $213,600
St Paul Travelers Companies        $201,000
Bear Stearns        $198,700
Goldman Sachs        $175,600
Credit Suisse Group        $154,550
Morgan Stanley        $154,300
Merrill Lynch        $131,950
JPMorgan Chase & Co        $129,650
Lehman Brothers        $122,300
KPMG LLP        $113,100
General Electric        $110,650
Hartford Financial Services        $110,450
UBS AG        $108,500
Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu        $108,000
The Hartford        $94,350
Bank of America        $91,300

02 Nov 08 - 12:21 PM (#2482521)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

In his campaign, Obama says he wants to crack down on overseas tax havens and stop allowing hedge funds to pay a 15 percent capital gains rate on most income, rather than the 35 percent income tax rate..

Obama's billionaire finance chair, Penny Pritzker' family fortune:

"I call it taking a bowl of spaghetti and untangling it," Thomas says. "We don't know of anyone who's undertaken something with the complexity of this."

The breakup is well under way. Trott's Goldman Sachs Capital Partners, the private equity arm of Goldman Sachs, plus an investment firm affiliated with Wal-Mart Stores Inc. Chairman Rob Walton, has spent $1.1 billion for a minority stake in Global Hyatt. In total, Hyatt may be worth $11 billion, says Ted Mandingo, owner of an Elmhurst, Illinois-based hotel consulting firm.

Selling Assets

The Pritzkers sold chewing tobacco maker Conwood Co. to Reynolds American Inc. for $3.5 billion in 2006. That year, they tried and failed to shed Triton Container International Ltd., a shipping container company, for as much as $2.5 billion. And Penny says they've sold a significant portion of a $5 billion real estate portfolio that she developed.

The Pritzkers own 80 percent of a partnership that holds a 15.6 percent stake in Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd. The family portion was worth $719 million on Aug. 19. The Pritzkers list eight casinos on company Web sites. The casino licenses alone are worth $500 million each, says John Kindt, a University of Illinois business professor.

Next year, the family will open a Grand Hyatt hotel and casino with 2,973 rooms just north of the Bellagio hotel in Las Vegas.

In six years, by the time Buffett buys the other 40 percent of Marmon, he'll have spent $10 billion-$11 billion to acquire that company, Trott says.

Buffett says he was so confident in the financial analysis that the Pritzkers developed for Marmon that he decided during a flight from San Francisco to Omaha to buy it.

"It came with a price attached,'' Buffett says. "In the end, we could meet it."

All told, the Pritzker empire is worth as much as $40 billion, a person familiar with the situation estimates.

The family's offshore accounts prevent anyone from getting a complete picture of their wealth. In 1986, when Abram Pritzker died, his heirs claimed an estate worth $25,000. The Internal Revenue Service sued to collect $53 million in back taxes. The two sides settled in 1994 for $9.5 million, according to U.S. Tax Court records.

02 Nov 08 - 12:40 PM (#2482533)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

Nobody bothers to untangle spaghetti. The way to deal with it is you just stick in a fork, twist it round, and put it in your mouth. Nothing too complicated about that...

02 Nov 08 - 01:47 PM (#2482567)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Big Pharma donations:

Obama: $848,00
Clinton: $639,429
Romney: $410,411
McCain: $347,375

02 Nov 08 - 02:02 PM (#2482577)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Obama Donors:

University of California$909,283
Goldman Sachs                  $874,207
Harvard University         $717,230
Microsoft Corp                  $714,108
Google Inc                  $701,099
JPMorgan Chase & Co         $581,460
Citigroup Inc                  $581,216
National Amusements Inc $543,859
Time Warner                  $508,148
Sidley Austin LLP         $492,445
Stanford University         $481,199
Skadden, Arps et al         $473,424
Wilmerhale Llp                  $466,679
UBS AG                           $454,795
Latham & Watkins         $426,924
Columbia University         $426,516
Morgan Stanley                  $425,102
IBM Corp                  $415,196
University of Chicago         $414,555
US Government                  $400,819

02 Nov 08 - 02:45 PM (#2482618)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Little Hawk

The corporate world buys both parties, because it expects them both to faithfully do its bidding once they are in office....and they do. Whichever party the corporate world regards as more electable in any given election, that is the one they will give more money to, I would think. They are buying up future cooperation when they do so.

Obviously, they would rather bet on the horse that they think is going to win. But if they spread their bets around some, then they've got it covered either way.

02 Nov 08 - 06:26 PM (#2482779)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

Looks like a lot of very smart people are putting their money on the Senator from Illinois this year, huh?

A

02 Nov 08 - 06:40 PM (#2482790)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Musket

Wow, listening from this side of the pond, I keep forgetting how we are separated by a common language. (Not to mention technology, I filled up my hire car with fuel in California earlier this year and the machine wouldn't accept my payment until I gave it my zip code. We don't have zip codes and the UK post code just didn't work.)

Sorry,

Talking about Obama and socialists.

We have socialists too. They mean something different here though. Here, it means politician (or anybody expressing a political view I guess) who who thinks society needs an even break, not just big business.

I take it socialist means something else in USA, as it appears to be a dirty word. A bit like the dirty words the rest of the world is using because of sub prime in the states leading to us all catching a cold. if only socialists were in charge eh?

02 Nov 08 - 07:52 PM (#2482844)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Yep, those evil corporations buy candidates and elections.

Then in the next breath, it is smart for those wonderful corporations to buy candidates and elections.

Flipty Flopity there goes the Hypocrity.

02 Nov 08 - 07:54 PM (#2482846)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

soÂ·cialÂ·ism (sÅ쳌â€™shÉ™-lÄzâ€™É™m) n.
1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

02 Nov 08 - 08:02 PM (#2482852)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert

But it was okay to give no-bid contracts to Dick Cheney's buddies at Halliburton???

(But, Bobertz, Halliburton is the onlu corporation that could have maintained trucks, built schools, cooked food and/or put out pipeline fires...)

Bull feathers... That falls under tha category of the "Big Lie"...

Don't anyone talk about Obama being this big redistributor when over the last 8 years we have seen more and more of the working classes labors transferred to the rich and well connected...

B~

02 Nov 08 - 08:23 PM (#2482870)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Little Hawk

I am stating what occurs with corporate financing of political parties, Sawzaw. I am not saying I approve of it or think it's a good thing. The fact that there are no laws in place to prevent that sort of lobbying leaves the foxes in control of the henhouse. That is not a good thing...no matter which party wins the election.

Now..."socialism". Your definition of socialism seems to assume that it must be universal (applying to ALL means of producing and distributing goods) in order to be socialism. That's ridiculous. It does not have to be universal, and it isn't, except under the most extreme forms of Communism...hell, even there it is probably not universal.

Your definition also leaves out the many forms of socialism which do NOT apply to producing and distributing goods at all, but to providing various forms of absolutely necessary public service, such as:

- a government
- a public educational system
- an armed forces
- a judicial system
- a police force
- public hospitals
- public libraries
- social security systems
- large media and communications networks
- environmental regulation agencies
- publicly financed scientific research efforts
- NASA and the space program
- public parks
- conservation areas to protect wildlife
- roads, bridges, sidewalks, traffic lights, traffic signs, airports, and other necessary transportation facilities
- a postal system
- and a great many other NECESSARY things which you seem to have forgotten about?

All of the above are socialist instititutions because:

1. They are paid for by taxes
2. Their personnel are hired and employed by the government
3. They exist for the benefit of the general public and the maintenance of a functioning society
4. They are done not for profit, but because it is something that NEEDS to be done for its own sake, regardless of profit.

That is what socialism is for. It is NOT for taking away all your private enterprise and taking over all your production of goods. (That part is done just fine by capitalism.) It is NOT for establishing the kind of dark dictatorship you imagine in the lunatic pipedreams that have been fed to you by several generations of fools in the USA who are living on scary myths that they don't even begin to understand.

Every modern society has a great deal of socialism in place right now, because there is NO way you can possibly run a society without it. You have it. We have it. Everyone does. We have it because we must.

Your definition is misleading. It's incomplete. It's wrong. It's selectively ignorant. It was written by someone who can only think in terms of a completely full glass or a completely empty glass, but apparently never even grasped the concept of a glass that is half full or that has two liquids mixed inside it.

I believe in a society in which both socialism AND capitalism play a healthy part, and guess what? That's exactly what I have in Canada. It's what you have in the USA too, only you apparently don't know it.

I have seen NOTHING to indicate that Obama intends to convert society so that "producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy". How could he? It is asinine to think that he would want to do that or that there would be even the ghost of a chance of him doing that in the USA (or in Canada) (or in Europe).

Therefore, if that is your definition of socialism, then you cannot accuse Obama of being "socialist", because nothing the man has said or done suggests in any way that he has intentions of having the government take over the producing and distributing of all the goods in your society.

Really, it's just ridiculous to think he would try to do that! It's asinine. No one could do it even if they wanted to.

You might as well accuse him of witchcraft and vampirism too, while you're at it. That would make about as much sense.

No American politician can possibly alter your society to make it what you think of as "socialist". Not a chance. And none would attempt to.

02 Nov 08 - 08:31 PM (#2482875)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

In fact if you actually examine that Obama quote about spreading the wealth around it is pretty evident that what he is talking about is reducing taxes so as to leave more money in the hands of more people, so they can spend it.

02 Nov 08 - 08:40 PM (#2482887)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: curmudgeon

Thank you LH and McGrath for explaining what should be obvious to those who take the time to look at the facts - Tom

02 Nov 08 - 08:42 PM (#2482890)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Bobert

That's right, LH... The real socialists are Bush and his buddies who think that no-bid contratcs are just peachy... That is socialism because there is no competition... The government becoem the purchaser of good and services based on, ahhhhhhhh, exactly nothing other than they want to???

This is Sawz idea of what is just peachy... It is 100 times more socialistic than anything that Obama has proposed... In a free market companies bid... This is the part of capitalism where things work best...

Does anyone for one minuite think that Halliburton was the only company on the planet who could hire truck drivers??? Or folks who could lay block... Or could open a friggin' can of vegeatables???

Come on, Sawz.... Your arguments are weaker than branch water...

B~

02 Nov 08 - 09:04 PM (#2482905)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

"But it was okay to give no-bid contracts to Dick Cheney's buddies at Halliburton???"

It was OK by Gore. He invented them as part of him a Bubba's balancing of the budget.

Take a bow Al.

02 Nov 08 - 09:05 PM (#2482907)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Anyone who thinks Obama favors the kinds of economic systems in the definitions above is pretty deluded if they think Obama's economic philosophy fits either of those definitions.

Obama is a huge believer in the market. That's why, for instance, he prefers a market based solution to the health care crisis rather than a socialist solution. Kucinich's health care plan is socialist (if anyone needs to see what a socialist health care plan looks like), unlike Obama's, which is market based.

That's also why Obama's economic plan includes economic incentives to get the green technology market up and running. Because he sees that the green economy is where the market has the most growth potential, and he doesn't want the US to be left behind in this emerging world market.

Some people are so ignorant, it truly takes my breath away.

02 Nov 08 - 10:34 PM (#2482954)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

"letting the lobbiests run the country"

That be Chris Dodd, lettin them run the counrty. A friend of Angelo and largest recipient, next to Obama, of $11,106,498 in lobbyist contributions from:
Citigroup Inc.................$314,194 United Technologies...........$262,700 SAC Capital Partners..........$242,900 American International Group..$223,478 Royal Bank of Scotland........$213,600 St Paul Travelers Companies...$201,000 Bear Stearns..................$198,700 Goldman Sachs.................$175,600 Credit Suisse Group...........$154,550 Morgan Stanley................$154,300 Merrill Lynch.................$131,950 JPMorgan Chase & Co...........$129,650 Lehman Brothers...............$122,300 KPMG LLP......................$113,100 General Electric..............$110,650 Hartford Financial Services...$110,450 UBS AG........................$108,500 Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu .....$108,000 The Hartford...................$94,350 Bank of America................$91,300

03 Nov 08 - 12:01 AM (#2482978)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Both sides have presented their cases..and on the most part, pretty well. Both sides show the other to be corrupt, and at the behest of special interest....what's the news flash?? They are POLITICIANS!..You know, professional liars, for a buck..mouthpieces for those behind the scenes that need a front man, to make it appear that the bucks they get, corruptly, is perfectly legal..or at least offer plausible deniability, that they conned the public, with due process!!

05 Nov 08 - 12:12 AM (#2485217)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

In 1974 Ayers co-authored --along with Dohrn, Jeff Jones, and Celia Sojourn -- a book titled Prairie Fire. This book contained the following statements:

* "We are a guerrilla organization. We are communist women and men ... deeply affected by the historic events of our time in the struggle against U.S. imperialism."
* "Our intention is to disrupt the empire, to incapacitate it, to put pressure on the cracks, to make it hard to carry out its bloody functioning against the people of the world, to join the world struggle, to attack from the inside."

* "The only path to the final defeat of imperialism and the building of socialism is revolutionary war."

* "Revolutionary war will be complicated and protracted. It includes mass struggle and clandestine struggle, peaceful and violent, political and economic, cultural and military, where all forms are developed in harmony with the armed struggle."

* "Without mass struggle there can be no revolution.

*Without armed struggle there can be no victory."

* "We need a revolutionary communist party in order to lead the struggle, give coherence and direction to the fight, seize power and build the new society."

* "Our job is to tap the discontent seething in many sectors of the population, to find allies everywhere people are hungry or angry, to mobilize poor and working people against imperialism."

* "Socialism is the total opposite of capitalism/imperialism. It is the rejection of empire and white supremacy. Socialism is the violent overthrow of the bourgeoisie, the establishment of the dictatorship of the proletariat, and the eradication of the social system based on profit."

05 Nov 08 - 12:12 AM (#2485218)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

Socialist or not, he's now the president elect.

05 Nov 08 - 12:17 AM (#2485219)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: catspaw49

So Sawz.....Do you think Ayers should be Secretary of State, Defense, or Interior?

Blow me Whineytittybaby

Spaw

05 Nov 08 - 10:27 AM (#2485602)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Big Al Whittle

Now that us socialist terrorist muslims are in the charge - you Americans better watch out.

Specially those who wanted to use stun guns on low settings in the privacy of your own homes, and bring in the death penalty for being a moose.

05 Nov 08 - 10:29 AM (#2485604)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Alice

give it a rest, Saw
it will help your blood pressure

05 Nov 08 - 10:32 AM (#2485612)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

Or at least try to find out what is really going on in a time-frame more recent than the 20th century, eh?

A

05 Nov 08 - 10:32 AM (#2485613)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

I am so happy for you angry people, even the ones that like blowjobs from other guys.

05 Nov 08 - 11:18 AM (#2485682)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,TIA

Angry? Who's angry?
Yeeeeeeehaaaaaaaa!

05 Nov 08 - 12:50 PM (#2485761)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

I am happy for you TIA for not having a chip on your shoulder.

05 Nov 08 - 09:21 PM (#2486164)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Riginslinger

"Obama is a socialist"

So was Eugene V. Debs.

05 Nov 08 - 09:28 PM (#2486166)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,number 6

"Obama is a socialist"

so am I.

(I was president of my graduating high school class)

biLL

05 Nov 08 - 09:35 PM (#2486171)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Lepus Rex

If Obama were a aocialist, I'd have voted for his pinko ass. And I didn't.

---Will

05 Nov 08 - 09:37 PM (#2486173)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: artbrooks

600...and what a waste of bandwidth.

05 Nov 08 - 10:10 PM (#2486193)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Obama supporters show their colors

05 Nov 08 - 11:28 PM (#2486245)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

Sawz:

That was pretty disgusting of you to take one weirdo out of a crowd and attribute his behaviour to "Obama supporters" with the direct implication that all supporters of Obama are traitors. In fact, that may be the low-downdest ugliest and stupidest porposition you have had the effrontery to come up with.

You should be ashamed; an apology is in order.

Your hatred is clearly making a clouded, overheated messy stew of your mind.

A

06 Nov 08 - 12:04 AM (#2486257)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

I am sorry that Amos has to constantly make excessively verbose and obstreperous excuses for the obvious support of Obama by socialists and communists.

Example Ayers threw a party to launch Obama's political career.

Ayers 1995: "Maybe I'm the last communist who is willing to admit it." "I don't like Lenin as much as the early Marx."

Obama writes a newspaper blurb for an Ayers book. The book jacket mentioned Ayres' terrorist activities that Obama calims he was not aware of (I guess he didn't read it):

"A searing and timely account of the juvenile court system, and the courageous individuals who rescue hope from despair.

Michelle Obama chaired a panel for Ayers, and invited her husband to share the stage, to promote a program and the same book by Ayers, to lower sentences and change court attitudes, toward juvenile offenders.

06 Nov 08 - 12:54 AM (#2486274)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Don Firth

Angry? Who, me?

Hell, I've been chuckling all day! That is, between bouts of yelling "Whoopie!!!" at the top of my lungs. And are the neighbors complaining? No, they're joining in!

Isn't there some sort of twelve-step program for people like Sawzaw?

Don Firth

06 Nov 08 - 05:38 AM (#2486371)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Big Al Whittle

I think the general idea is that they're psyching themselves up to say that an assasination attempt is in order to rescue America from itself.

The Spirit of Timothy Mcveigh and John Wilkes Booth lives on!

Why else persist with this bullshit? Why start it in the first place?

Obama won fair and square on his arguments and the crap record of the party in power at the time.

06 Nov 08 - 12:09 PM (#2486669)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,TIA

Talk about showing true colors.
Fox news spots a nut in the crowd, and gives it big play.
A Fox viewer (just as intended) picks it up and spreads it.

Doesn't have anything to do with his statements, history, proposed policies, etc.

But it is great innuendo.

Again, we are not the angry people.

06 Nov 08 - 12:12 PM (#2486673)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: goatfell

it's about time really you got a 'socialist' to lead you.

06 Nov 08 - 12:29 PM (#2486690)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Barry Finn

Call him whatever you like but he is the best to come along in a long time. Instead of trying to beat him down & seeing as he's in there & there's nothing you can do about it, either get out of the way & stop being an obstacle or get on board & help to make this a better place to live. We've all seen how the party's fighting one another has gotten us & it's what helped to put us in the hole we're in now. Well, that & a few other bad policies.

Barry

06 Nov 08 - 12:35 PM (#2486697)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

Sawz:

If you took off your green glasses, you might notice that people from every walk of life and every section of the political spectrum have turned out to celebrate Obama's election.

Your insistence that his sporadic association with Ayers is significant in the overall picture is pathetic, and, I would add, aberrated.

Your use of "scary pushbuttons" like socialism is likewise disingenuous, or else profoundly undiscriminating.

Obama is fiercely in favor of the private ownership of production, of entrepreneurship and the spirit of innovation and private capitalism which has built this country. He is also deeply in favor of a country in which the citizens take responsibility for building a coherent whole, look out for each other, and look for thebest in their fellow-men.

These latter concepts may be beyond you, or they may not, I don't know. But to try and paint them with hated colors is both ucharitable of you, and distinctly twisted.

A

06 Nov 08 - 09:22 PM (#2487084)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

Surely that's a Republican flag. No doubt they are singing "We'll keep the Red Flag flying here"

Bright red, with the hallowed symbol of the crossed Plumbers Friend and Bowie Knife... No doubt about it, those are hardcore Republicans bravely showing their defiance!

06 Nov 08 - 09:47 PM (#2487112)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

Alaskan Bowie Knife

Plumber's Friend

"Republican Red Gear"

07 Nov 08 - 02:11 AM (#2487225)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Sawzaw

Obama campaign office

Obama supporter

Obama campaign worker

07 Nov 08 - 06:25 AM (#2487365)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

Thanks, Sawzaw - I find those pictures very reassuring...

07 Nov 08 - 06:35 AM (#2487375)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: bobad

"...you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'."

07 Nov 08 - 07:17 AM (#2487406)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Emma B

Couple of years ago there was an exhibition titled "¡Che! Revolution and Commerce."...

This is a review of the exhibition from Ann Althouse' web page....

'In the United States, Che's life story and ambitions seem beside the point, or maybe they've just been reduced to caricature. The guy's face is shorthand for "I'm against the status quo." He's politics' answer to James Dean, a rebel with a very specific cause. And since very few people know anything about the cause, or the rebel -- besides the basics -- the Che shirt has about it the whiff of inside info. It makes you part of the thrift-store intelligentsia, even if your real focus is beer pong.

This, in brief, is why capitalism won. It's the only system that understands that we'd all like to change the world, but we are way too lazy for that sort of thing. Especially if there's ice cream around. When you get done with a Cherry Guevara, you're left with a wooden stick with the words "We will bite to the end!" stamped on it. If there are nails in Che's coffin, this, no doubt, is what they look like.

I know a lot of people get really mad about all the Che imagery.

This article takes the attitude that the runaway popularization actually defeats Che's politics. Revolution is processed into rebelliousness.

Are we supposed to feel good about the way our culture drains serious meaning out of things?'

Thank you Ann

07 Nov 08 - 07:36 AM (#2487416)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Emma B

'Our longstanding policies toward Cuba have been a miserable failure, evidenced by the fact that Fidel Castro is now the longest-serving head of state in the world.
If our isolationist policies were meant to weaken him, they certainly haven't worked.

I believe that normalization of relations with Cuba would help the oppressed and poverty-stricken Cuban people while setting the stage for a more democratic government once Castro inevitably leaves the scene.'

Obama 2004

Now that would be a 'change'!

07 Nov 08 - 07:53 AM (#2487433)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

"This, in brief, is why capitalism won."

Perhaps "Don't speak too soon, for the wheel's still in spin..."

07 Nov 08 - 09:44 AM (#2487540)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

I would be willing to bet money that FOX planted that flag in there. Notice we don't ever see who is holding it up. That person never shows their face. Probably because someone would recognize them from the FOX newsroom.

FOX's ratings have been slipping a lot lately and they've got to find ways to pump them up. Juicy scaremongering like this has always been their ace in the hole, but I think people are starting to lose interest in that sort of thing. About time, too.

07 Nov 08 - 10:02 AM (#2487555)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: CarolC

One of the videos that is showing that communist flag has some words going by as the flag is waved. To paraphrase some of them a bit (quoting from Stalin, I believe)...

Ideas are more powerful than guns. We don't allow our enemies to have guns. Why should we allow them to have ideas?

That right there is the FOX NEWS agenda from start to finish. Deprive the American people of ideas - replace any ideas they might have of their own with the ideas we impose on them, and we and the Republican party will be able to maintain our hold on power forever.

FOX is anti-democracy and anti-freedom. They are no better than Stalin was when it comes to suppressing freedom and democracy.

07 Nov 08 - 10:23 AM (#2487570)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

I think there are some people at Fox who make for the reputation CC describes.

There are others who, although stilll of a conservative bias, try to make respectable news.

The Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity hydrophobic types are the worst of the lot; but they are not the whole picture.

A

07 Nov 08 - 10:58 AM (#2487602)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Art Thieme

Once again, capitalism has proven itself to be largely bankrupt and incapable of sharing meaningfully to anyone below the status of middle class.

Why have so many of you continued your rant in favor of this system that is so non-inclusive, and actually destructive to people the world over?

Conversely, I think some of you protest too much against anything "social." Socialism seems, to me, the democratic direction we ought to be heading into willingly and in double time---but without any totalitarian system or police state to enforce it.

I am willing to vote it in as a great hope for the future. It is the time, right now, to jettison the ponderous baggage of older bankrupt dogmas!

Art

07 Nov 08 - 11:00 AM (#2487606)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,TIA

And that is what spoils the whole crate of apples - how are people to discriminate between the O'Reilly and Hannity "news" and the respectable news? My Father-in-Law, and Uncle cannot. That makes them very difficult to be around.

07 Nov 08 - 11:42 AM (#2487653)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Amos

The ability to discriminate is an individual accomplishment, I woudl offer, individually gained, much like riding a bicycle. If you do not pursue it with zeal and assiduous practice, you end up not doing it well.

A

07 Nov 08 - 12:00 PM (#2487669)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: GUEST,TIA

Unfortunately, FOX panders to those who either care not to discriminate, or are totaly unaware that some discrimination might be necessary.

The biased and the ignorant, in short (sorry Pop and Unc).

07 Nov 08 - 01:57 PM (#2487798)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: McGrath of Harlow

Anyway, the election is over, these kind of incidents are totally irrelevant. What signifies is what happens over the next few years, with the new regime in office.

07 Nov 08 - 04:42 PM (#2487932)
Subject: RE: BS: Obama is a socialist
From: Little Hawk

It is laughable to assert that Obama is a socialist, and only someone who is grossly ignorant of what socialism is could possibly think so.

Here's an article from today's Toronto Star, giving a Canadian viewpoint on where Obama would stand in the Canadian political spectrum...somewhat to right of center. Canada IS a capitalist society.

Canadian view of Barack Obama

The article is written by Rosie DiManno, one of Canada's foremost columnists. I would describe her as a tough "conservative" liberal in Canadian terms. That is, she writes for a liberal newspaper, but she tends to write from a rather conservative "tough love" mindset. For example, she has enthusiastically backed the Iraq war from day 1, while our government chose not to get involved in it and not to support it, and our public in general looked askance at the whole thing. I agree with Rosie DiManno about half the time. She's smart, tough, stubborn, and opinionated. I would not know whether to describe her as "liberal" or "conservative", because she just doesn't fully fit either description.