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23 Oct 08 - 02:38 PM (#2473972) Subject: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Den I thought this might be a more interesting title than "the etymology of modern day idioms." Anyway I find the topic interesting. "Burying the hatchet" or putting aside differences apparently derives from the natve american custom of putting out of site all weapons before smoking the peace pipe. "Close but no cigar" meaning to almost win dates back to the time in the US when early slot machines used to give cigars as prizes. "Cat got your tongue" making to be unable or unwilling to speak. Well there seems to be a couple of schools of thought on this one. One thought is that the expression comes from the supposed ancient traditional middle-eastern practice of removing the tongues of liars and feeding them to cats. "Mad as a hatter", This one is self evident but dates back to the time when mercury was used in the construction of felt hats. Mercury exposure can cause aggressiveness, mood swings, and anti-social behaviour. Does anyone have any more favourites? |
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23 Oct 08 - 02:42 PM (#2473981) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: katlaughing I'm sure I will think of some. I thought this was going to be a thread about putting aside our partisan differences during the last of the US election.**bg** |
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23 Oct 08 - 02:50 PM (#2473988) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: ClaireBear Do you remomber Mad Magazine's "Horrifying Cliches"? These were illustrated idioms. I don't think there was actually a "Burying the hatchet," but "Burying a grudge" was definitely represented. (The grudge was a large, sloth-like monster, as I recall, and the burial took place at night in a graveyard). The most memorable frame from that feature was a picture of a man opening his front door, to find outside a wooden crate, between whose slats were visible an assemblage of skinng little peculiar mosters with large, gaping mouths. It was titled "Getting a case of the screaming meemies." I'd never heard that expression previously, but it became a favorite that day. Claire |
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23 Oct 08 - 03:24 PM (#2474007) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: gnu Yes! I recall a frazzled individual entangled amongst the many horns of a large, monster-looking "dilemma". |
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23 Oct 08 - 03:34 PM (#2474013) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Wesley S I've always heard that "rule of thumb" refered to an English law that said you couldn't beat your wife with a stick that was thicker than your thumb. |
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23 Oct 08 - 03:37 PM (#2474015) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: gnu You can, but thay also have this "murder" thing. |
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23 Oct 08 - 03:47 PM (#2474021) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Wesley S POSH = Port Out, Starboard Home. Which is supposed to be the best cabin on a cruise ship. |
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23 Oct 08 - 03:55 PM (#2474029) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: bankley 'crazy as a shit house rat' ..... kind of self-explanatory 'tighter than a camel's arse in a sandstorm' ditto 'dark as the inside of a cow with it's arse shut and eyes closed' ditto |
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23 Oct 08 - 03:56 PM (#2474030) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: GUEST,Volgadon The wife-beating origin of rule of thumb is false. I live in the Middle East and have studied the history in-depth, never heard of cats being fed tongues of liars. Posh is NOT Port Out, Starboard Home, but derives from the Romany word for money- posheen. I don't see why burying the hatchet has anything to do with Native American peace traditions. It is probably as simple as it sounds. Let's put away our weapons and be friends. |
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23 Oct 08 - 03:56 PM (#2474033) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: ClaireBear "At sixes and sevens" always makes me think in terms of really complicated Eastern European time signatures, although in reality I believe the expression has nothing to do with music. |
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23 Oct 08 - 04:18 PM (#2474050) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Q (Frank Staplin) Many of these idioms difficult to tie down. Bury the hatchet- 1807, Dictionary of American English, Craigie and Hulburt. "I had long been persecuted by the General, but wished to bury the hatchet." Assumed to relate to native American use as posted above, but uncertain. Close but no cigar- 1935, the film Annie Oakley. "Close, Colonel, but no cigar." Relationship to old slot machines doubtful. Cigars often given as a last (booby) prize. Booby prize- first use?? Booby hatch- A jail (1859) or an insane asylum (1896) Till the last cat is hung- 1854, G. G. Foster, "When he leaves the rotunda, which will not be "till the last cat is hung." Probably earlier. Higher than a cat's back- F. Hunt, 1940, Trail from Texas, referring to 1870's; "The river's higher 'n a cat's back an' still risin;?" Probably older than that date. On the cat- roaming or staying away from home. Black English; 1965 (1953?) first dated reference. Both Brown. In a cat's ass- No indeed. Prob. WW2; 1968, Camerer, "Dammed Wear Wings." One a cat couldn't scratch- A firm erection. 1968, Crawford in Gresham's War. Also Westheimer 1968 in Young Sentry. Prob. WW2. The above from Lighter, Historical Dictionary of American Slang. |
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23 Oct 08 - 04:20 PM (#2474054) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Gurney Hobsons's Choice. I understand Hobson was an innkeeper who hired horses, stricly in rotation. You couldn't pick the mount you wanted, you had to take Hobson's choice. |
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23 Oct 08 - 04:29 PM (#2474061) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Richard Bridge At least two wrong. Rule of thumb is the longstanding carpenter's approximation that the top joint of a man's thumb is about an inch long. Hobson only had one horse. You could have the horse - or not have the horse. |
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23 Oct 08 - 04:48 PM (#2474081) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Q (Frank Staplin) Volgadon is correct about 'posh', which was adopted into English before 1830, money (Appears in Old Bailey proceedings). It soon was applied to anything sumptuous, lush or 'classy'- typical reverse or inflation slang. One of the quotations in the OED: 1846, From "Swell's Night Guide," "As I used to doss there sometimes, her nibs got sweet on me, and in course we did our reg'lars, and the dossing mongary, lush and posh." This has been gone over before, with references, but it's impossible to run down these old postings. |
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23 Oct 08 - 07:20 PM (#2474244) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Sandra in Sydney One way to find an old post is a Google Site search - paste "posh" site:mudcat.org into Google & you get this! then you just have to look thru 976 posts & hope that it was harvested by Google. sandra |
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23 Oct 08 - 07:37 PM (#2474266) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: katlaughing Yorkshire Yankee quoted Sourdough about "posh" in this thread. Thanks, sandra! HERE is one of the first of the "colloquialisms" threads. Lots of fun! |
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23 Oct 08 - 07:45 PM (#2474279) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: kendall Grinning like a dog eating bumblebees |
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23 Oct 08 - 11:51 PM (#2474429) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Cluin Gotta piss like a racehorse. |
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23 Oct 08 - 11:52 PM (#2474430) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Cluin Hornier'n a ten-peckered owl. (Why the owl is figured to be so randy anyway, I have no idea.) |
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24 Oct 08 - 04:45 AM (#2474570) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity I still use these:.... Shakin' like a dog shittin' carpet tacks. Tight as a bull's ass during fly season. Is a frog's ass water tight? (When answering with an obvious 'yes') |
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24 Oct 08 - 05:47 AM (#2474599) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Keith A of Hertford Some of nautical origin clean bill of health, toe the line, 3 sheets to the wind, by and large, tide over, copper bottomed, in the offing, hand over fist, bitter end, taken aback, chock a block,..... |
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24 Oct 08 - 06:02 AM (#2474612) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler I really must remember to shout "Chock a block" at the end of a shanty some day. |
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24 Oct 08 - 07:03 AM (#2474654) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: George Papavgeris "I will have no truck with him..." Come from the nailmaking trade in the UK Midlands, and more specifically from the practice in the 18th-19th centuries(called "truck" at the time) of the middleman (aka "fogger") forcing the nailers to buy their vittles from his store. It's the same idea as the "company store" referred to in "Sixteen Tons". Anyway, truck was eventually outlawed, but the expression remained. One of my favourites is a contemporary expression, coined (I believe) by the Scottish comedian Billy Connolly: "As welcome as a fart in a spacesuit". |
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24 Oct 08 - 10:39 AM (#2474876) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Den I've heard that the chiefly English expression "smashing" meaning excellent or very good is derived from the gaelic "is maith sin". Anyone know any more about this. It sounds plausible. |
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24 Oct 08 - 10:50 AM (#2474885) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Zen "Dim as a Toc H lamp": (UK) meaning unintelligent, not very bright. From the small-wicked, weak light lamp used at the "ceremony of light" Toc H (a UK Christian charity of WW1 armed forces origin) Zen |
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24 Oct 08 - 11:24 AM (#2474904) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Donuel rule of thumb the US law that said you could not beat your wife with any stikk bigger than the diameter of your thumb. |
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24 Oct 08 - 02:53 PM (#2475113) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Q (Frank Staplin) 'Block and block' was the original seaman's term (1627, Capt. John Smith). Also in Falconer, 18th c., etc. 'Chock-a-block' appeared in Dana, "Two Years Before the Mast," 1842; uncertain when the change took place. (OED). Chock-full (choke-full) appeared in the 15th c., seemingly first applied to drunks. 'Rule of thumb' is a tough one. Perhaps from the measure, the breadth of the thumb, inch-measure; 1611- Cotgrave's Dictionary; but this does not lead to the first known use. The OED gives it a separate citation, first in print by W. Hope, "Fencing Master," 1692, "What he doth, he doth by rule of thumb, and not by Art." Kelly, 1721, "Scot. Prov.," "No rule so good as Rule of Thumb, if it hit." In 1785, Grose in his Dictionary of Vulgar..., "to do a thing by dint of practice." Later quotes include prescribing drug amounts by rule of thumb, etc. It has nothing to do with any U. S. law. |
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24 Oct 08 - 04:52 PM (#2475204) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Cluin Reminding the kids to "Shut the door! Were you born in a barn?" My girlfriend's mother says "The saying is "Were you born on a barge?'" But then, she's from Nova Scotia. |
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24 Oct 08 - 05:03 PM (#2475215) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: GUEST,Volgadon I'm pretty sure it means not taking exact measurements with a yardstick, but making a rough guess with your thumb. To those who insist that it has to do with wife-beating, please find me the law.... |
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24 Oct 08 - 05:06 PM (#2475219) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Cluin That fallacy was somebody's "axe to grind". |
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25 Oct 08 - 01:02 AM (#2475578) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Cluin And exactly what easy procedure, aside from a quickie wedding, would make Bob suddenly avuncular? |
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25 Oct 08 - 02:54 AM (#2475625) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Liz the Squeak I was under the impression that 'toe the line' came from the British Parliament, where there are two lines drawn on the floor of the House of Commons main chamber, in front of each 'front bench' - the first row of seats where the Prime Minister, leader of the Opposition and deputies sit, opposing parties facing each other. The line is a few feet in front of each row of seats and the space between is just over a drawn swords' length on each side. Crossing the line was a distinct threat in the days when all men carried swords, daggers and multi-purpose knives, and to 'toe the line' was to go no further forward than your toes on the drawn line. It was supposed to reduce the possibility of blood shed and the Speaker could order anyone who overstepped the mark (there's another one) to back up and 'toe the line'. It means to stay in your place and abide by the rules and wasn't anything to do with nautical practices. But I may be wrong. LTS |
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25 Oct 08 - 02:57 PM (#2475977) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Q (Frank Staplin) 'Toe the line' may have a nautical origin. Earliest quote in the OED from Maryat, a marine novelist, 1833- "He desired us to toe a line..." R. H. Dana, 1840, "Two Years Before the Mast" - "The chief mate...marked a line on the deck, brought the two boys up to it, making them 'toe the mark'." Westm. Gaz., 1895, The phrase 'Toeing the Line' is very much in favour with some Liberals..." 1853- 'Toeing the scratch' for business. |
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25 Oct 08 - 05:40 PM (#2476050) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Cluin "Toe the line" is corruption of "Toe the Lion", a cruel practice used in old Roman times in the Colliseum. The middle 2 toes of the rear paws of captive lions used in the games were removed. This helped control the giant felines, making it impossible for the lions to get purchase to leap out of the ring and into the stands to menace the spectators. Such an occurance might have caused a bit of unpopularity of the then-current Caesar and so all lions were "toed" before being set loose in the arena. Since so many urban myths are being propogated here, I thought I'd start one of my own. |
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25 Oct 08 - 07:02 PM (#2476104) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Cluin Good thing I set the PVR. |
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25 Oct 08 - 08:10 PM (#2476149) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Cluin I don't know how that last post ended up in this, the wrong thread. |
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26 Oct 08 - 01:53 PM (#2476597) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Dead Horse Here are some nautical expressions explained. |
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26 Oct 08 - 02:53 PM (#2476626) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Q (Frank Staplin) Urban myths, modern sailors myths; little difference. These from the OED. Footloose first appeared in print in 1873; J. H. Beedle, "Undeveloped West," "All my friends who were 'foot-loose' had the Arizona fever." Dressing down first appeared with regard to the army. To castigate, by words or blows. 1769, "10th Rep. Hist. MS Comm.," "For this he got a very severe dressing down..." Bitter end origin is uncertain, the first quote known is from 1849, "Congress. Globe," ".....voted for the gentleman from Indiana, even to the bitter end." Some similar quotes refer to suffering. Etc. On the other hand, the reference to skyscraper is correct. |
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26 Oct 08 - 03:43 PM (#2476665) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: meself The "bitter end" can refer to the end of the rope on board the ship. Don't know if that is its origin or not, but it is a usage. |
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26 Oct 08 - 05:21 PM (#2476749) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: ard mhacha Den thanks for starting this Thread, is maith sin, smashing, yes, many people in Ireland agree with that, both words sound exactly the same. |
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26 Oct 08 - 10:35 PM (#2476952) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Cluin "bitter end"... that's what the lion did when she got too close. |
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27 Oct 08 - 06:53 AM (#2477089) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Jim Dixon It's fun to use Google Book Search to find old phrases like this. I suppose there's a chance you might find instances of use that are even older than those listed in the OED. Bossu, M. Travels Through That Part of North America Formerly Called Louisiana. Translated from the French by John Reinhold Forster. London: Printed for T. Davies, 1771, page 237f:
When peace is concluded they bury the hatchet or the club under ground, signifying thereby that all their hatred towards their enemies is buried in oblivion, that the horrors of war are at an end, and that friendship and good understanding are growing again between them and their friends, like the white flowers of their tree of peace, (which is the white laurel), that ought to spread its branches over the white ground; which is a metaphorical expression which means the ground of peace. |
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27 Oct 08 - 07:28 AM (#2477107) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Jim Dixon I think this may be the original rule of thumb: Swift, Jonathan. Travels into Several Remote Nations of the World ... by Lemuel Gulliver. London: Benjamin Motte, 1726, page 108:
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27 Oct 08 - 08:11 AM (#2477125) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Jim Dixon Methodist Review. New York: J. Soule and T. Mason, 1819, vol. II, page 350:
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27 Oct 08 - 02:05 PM (#2477365) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Q (Frank Staplin) All excellent finds. The 1692 quote still seems to be the earliest for 'rule of thumb', but I wouldn't be surprised at even earlier use. Many years ago my grandfather was an occasional submitter of quotes to the OED (amateur historian and newspaper editor). Don't know how their updates are handled now. |
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27 Oct 08 - 02:12 PM (#2477373) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Donuel A true feminist knows about the rule of thumb. |
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27 Oct 08 - 02:44 PM (#2477393) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: meself Feel free to enlighten us ... |
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27 Oct 08 - 02:49 PM (#2477394) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: GUEST,Neil D Here are two the date to the days of the flintlock musket: Flash in the pan-Using bad or not enough gunpowder would make a flash in the pan but not fire the musketball. Going off halfcocked-the hammer on flintlocks had a half cocked and full cocked position. If you forgot to go from half to full cocked before pulling the trigger you would get a weak combustion that would only fire the ball a few feet. |
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27 Oct 08 - 05:19 PM (#2477549) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Cluin Keep your powder dry, Neil. |
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27 Oct 08 - 05:58 PM (#2477575) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Eric the Viking Had a mate who would describe people with a hangover as having "eyes like battling dogs bollocks". Can't think what he meant! |
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27 Oct 08 - 11:32 PM (#2477800) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Gurney Richard Bridge, Google 'Hobson's Choice.' I was wrong in saying he was an innkeeper, though. He was a carrier and he hired out horses. |
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28 Oct 08 - 01:23 PM (#2478281) Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet From: Cluin "Eyes like two pissholes in the snow" is another one I've never understood either, though it's been used to describe me upon occasion. |