Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??

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Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??

26 Nov 08 - 02:17 PM (#2502255)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Wesley S

Influential perhaps. But best? That would be a streach of anyones imagination. I'd like to think that he was picked because of the contents of his songs rather than the quality of his voice.

26 Nov 08 - 02:30 PM (#2502267)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: goatfell

bob dylan a great singer, what was the person wearing ear muffs, he's bloody crap, he writes good songs but he cannae sing

26 Nov 08 - 02:33 PM (#2502272)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Amos

Obviously the list was written by a complete illiterate. No-one outside of Top Pops, no-one before 1960---how ignorant!! Leaving Sinatra, Pavoratti, Paul Robeson, Jolson, Durante, Valentino out of the list is a sure sign the writer was a chauvinistic cultural doofus.

A

26 Nov 08 - 02:43 PM (#2502278)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Genie

They really should have called the list "The 100 Currently Most Popular Singing Entertainers (except for folk, opera, Broadway, jazz, world music, and a whole bunch of other categories)."

Dylan makes their list but Baez doesn't?
Sly Stone makes it but not Ella Fitzgerald?
John Lennon is ranked higher than Patsy Kline, Jim Morrison, and Roy Orbison?

Using their criteria, I'm shocked not to see Leonard Cohen on the list of "all-time great singers." (sigh)

I'm sure you can come up with a lot of other outrages.

26 Nov 08 - 03:29 PM (#2502303)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

Yeah, he made the list. So what? Get over it. There is no "outrage" here.

26 Nov 08 - 03:51 PM (#2502311)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

I'm sure these lists are produced to wind people up. For example, if you include Ray Charles (yes, yes, yes!!), you must include, along side him, Dinah Washington. Indeed, if you asked Aretha (number one in this list) for her list of greatest singers, Dinah would probably be listed in number one place.

26 Nov 08 - 03:53 PM (#2502315)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Amos

The only outrage is that claiming to be a fair sample of all time while only being a fair sample of AMerican singers in the last 35-40 years is fraudulent PR.

Dylan is a genuine voice, but I wouldn't call him a vocal musician.

A Harley makes a sweet sound too, but it ain't no nightingale.

A

26 Nov 08 - 04:47 PM (#2502351)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Richard Bridge

Wot no Levi Stubbs?
Desmond Dekker?
Tommy Steele?
Lonnie Donegan?
Connie Francis?
Little Eva?
Gladys Knight?
Eddie Cochrane?
Gene Vincent?
Eric Burdon?
Billy Idol?
Johnny Hallyday?

26 Nov 08 - 04:53 PM (#2502354)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Ian Burdon

But he is - or at least was - a great singer. Why shouldn't he be on such a list?

Ian

26 Nov 08 - 05:10 PM (#2502378)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

Richard, your list is bizarre! Surely, Gene Vincent, Johnny Halliday and Eddie Cochran are/were inferior versions of Elvis! I can't take Eric Burdon seriously! He's Geordie for god sake, and so why does he sound like a mix of Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker and god knows who else! Tommy Steele! That's got to be a wind up! And Lonnie Donegan, too. Levi, yes! Gladys, maybe. Don't really know Desmond.

26 Nov 08 - 05:17 PM (#2502389)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Genie

Eric Burdon did make the list.

Billie Holiday didn't.

26 Nov 08 - 05:18 PM (#2502390)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Little Hawk

There's plenty of reason for all those people to be on such a list, Dylan included. They all had voices which marketed very well, worked very well for what they were doing, and had an enthusiastic audience of listeners. There's also plenty of reason for numerous others who aren't there to be on it, such as Joan Baez or Frank Sinatra. So what? It's just another danged list some people put together. A year from now, who will care?

26 Nov 08 - 06:59 PM (#2502479)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Genie

The only thing about including Dylan (or any of the others) is that it knocks someone else OFF the list. It's saying Bob Dylan is a BETTER singer than Joan Baez, KD Lang, Luciano Pavarotti, Nat Cole, Jo Stafford, Marty Robbins, etc., etc.

A month or two from now I'm sure no one will care. For that matter, if they did the whole process over again right now, I'd wager they'd come up with a very different list.

I just think it's more than a bit of a misnomer to use the terms "singers" and "of all time" when their own (detailed) description shows they're really rating musical artists on criteria such as songwriting ability and all-around entertainment value, plus they're clearly leaving out well over half the world (culturally and geographically) and half the musical genres where one might find great singers.

It's about as meaningful as People Magazine's annual "50 Most Beautiful People" list - except that that list doesn't purport to represent "all time." ; D

26 Nov 08 - 07:42 PM (#2502505)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Little Hawk

It's damn silly that Joan Baez didn't occur to any of them, but it simply indicates that someone else occurred to them first, that's all. In other words, there's someone else they normally think about more often than they do about her. Who people think about is more a result of the success of present day mass marketing most of the time than it is of the comparative abilities of performers.

You don't like the list? Well, just make up your own list. ;-) That's what I usually do.

My quick list of my 10 overall favorite singers (not necessarily the "best", just my personal favorites) would be:

Bob Dylan
Joan Baez
Buffy Sainte-Marie
Jackson Browne
Mary Chapin Carpenter
Al Stewart
Gordon Lightfoot
Mark Knopfler
Leonard Cohen
Ian Tyson

Who's "the best singer" among them? That's impossible to say, and I wouldn't even bother trying to figure it out.

26 Nov 08 - 09:43 PM (#2502564)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: maple_leaf_boy

(I won't mention which artists I think are rightfully on the list, and
which ones I think aren't rightfully on the list; with the exception
of Kurt Cobain. Nothing against him, but he couldn't sing. The others
I'd like to mention can be debatable, so I won't mention them).
I think that some of the artists who should be and are there were misplaced. Example: Joni Mitchell at #42, she should definitely be quite higher up there than #42. (She's not one of my favorites, but she's an excellent vocalist. Her melodies are complex, and they're
good at the same time).
Nominations and votes are not always the best description of the
criteria. There are other elements that could contribute to the
determination of ranking vocalists. Complexity of the melodies, the
styles (which makes it tougher to rank), the feeling that the vocalist
puts into their songs, the versatility, the melodies being set to
lyrics (the quality of the two, if they match well). There are several
types of criteria to use, which is why the list will always be
much different.

I read in a couple of magazines, the top 100 and 500 country songs of all time for example. One version would include songs that the
other didn't and vice versa. The songs that were included in both
versions were placed in completely different rankings. Rolling Stone
might do this again, and the list will probably be very much different.

26 Nov 08 - 10:19 PM (#2502575)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Seamus Kennedy

Amos - Valentino? Rudolf/ The silent movie star?

Say it ain't so!

Seamus

26 Nov 08 - 10:51 PM (#2502592)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Genie

Maybe Amos meant Rudy Vallee? Or maybe Enrico Caruso?

26 Nov 08 - 11:12 PM (#2502601)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Amos

I did mean Rudy Valee, the crooner--not Valentino, the silent movie star!! :D Sorry, Seamus. I owe you a pint!

And while we're at it, where the hell is John McCormack and Frank Warner??? Burl Ives? Tiny Tim?? The McGuire Sisters? What a lousy list!!

A

26 Nov 08 - 11:35 PM (#2502606)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Genie

And where are singers like these?
Miriam Makeba
Nana Mouskouri
Judy Garland
Lena Horne
Yma Sumac
Celine Dion
Amy Lee
Michael Crawford
Tony Bennett
Sarah Vaughn
Johnny Mathis
Linda Ronstadt
Loreena McKinnett
Jim Reeves
Marian Anderson
Julie Andrews
Harry Belafonte
The Wilson Sisters (Heart)
Pat Benatar
John Denver
Martina McBride
Mahalia Jackson
Bette Midler
Ronnie Gilbert
Edith Piaf
Israel "Iz" Kamakawiwo'ole
Harry Conick Jr.
Peggy Lee
Seal

or any number of other outstanding singers/entertainers whose names may not be as well known (at the moment)?

27 Nov 08 - 02:20 AM (#2502641)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Dave Hanson

Ithink they meant , top 100 ' mostly ' pop singers.

eric

27 Nov 08 - 04:44 PM (#2503124)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: GUEST,Hitchin John

All the lists are somewhat bogus - which is the best fruit - strawberry or apple?

But with a pinch of salt you can just enjoy fuming over how your favorite has been overlooked or their suprisingly high placing in the list.

Anyway Bob Dylan - Great singer - why not in the mid sixties no one else could deliver his songs as he did. From Masters of war to Mr Tambourine man to Like a Rolling Stone he used what he was given in a unique and evocative manner. Although it is clear Joan Baez had great clarity of tone, for me she rarely even threatens to deliver the definitive version of any of Dylan's songs.

It is also clear that while some songs may have been written with other people in mind. Bob has never written a song he didn't think that he could sing.

Given also the wave of imitators who borrowed from his delivery as well as his writing - surely while not possessing a great natural voice, he was a great singer - it ain't what you've got - it's what you do with it!

27 Nov 08 - 07:04 PM (#2503187)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Little Hawk

You got it right, Hitchin' John. Bob sang really marvelously in the 60's and right through, I'd say, around the mid-70's. He had fantastically unique and potent bite and intensity in how he did those songs. His versions of his own songs normally ARE the definitive version.

However, there are just a couple of specific Dylan songs that Joan has done the definitive version of, and I'd say they are:

Love Is Just a Four Letter Word

and....

Farewell, Angelina

She made those two her own.

27 Nov 08 - 07:45 PM (#2503204)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Bobert

First time I heard Bob Dylan I knew I had to learn to play guitar.... That was 1964 and I been playin' (and singing) ever since... But the early days it was obne Dyaln song after another that I learned and when you are singing Dylan songs you develpoe an appreciation of just how good a singer he is... Okay, his voice might be a tad strange to some folks but he is a fine singer... Still is, for that matter...

The only people I have ever run into who think that Dyaln can't sing are non-singers... I don't know one single singer who feels that way... Me included... He ain't easy to cover but you always know where he's gonna be even if you can't get there...

B~

27 Nov 08 - 09:31 PM (#2503251)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Genie

Ah, but Joan Baez can do -- and has done -- a far better impersonation of Bob Dylan's singing than Dylan could ever dream of doing of her!!
I.e., she can actually sound rather like him, but he could never begin to sound even remotely like her. I'd say that speaks to her greater vocal versatility.

Genie

28 Nov 08 - 01:56 AM (#2503319)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Little Hawk

Joan has deliberately done a sort of amusing send-up of the Dylan style on some recordings and in some concerts. She can imitate some of what Dylan does...the phrasing, the stretched syllables, the trailing off notes and the ends of words, and so on...but she simply cannot imitate the growl, bark, and edge. I think she'd damage her vocal chords if she attempted it.

As for Bob imitating Joan? Inconceivable. It's inconceivable for virtually any male singer to imitate Joan's voice, because males just cannot sing in that register...and falsetto won't do it either.

They are both extremely versatile in a vocal sense, but that doesn't mean that Bob could ever imitate Joan. Just not possible.

28 Nov 08 - 02:08 AM (#2503321)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Genie

It's not just the vocal range, Hawk. I don't think Dylan or anyone with his vocal limitations (probably not a lot more than an octave range, just to name one aspect) could even begin to imitate or sing in the style of someone with a clear, resonant voice.

This is not to say that Dylan can't carry a tune -- he obviously can -- or that his stylings aren't expressive or entertaining or poignant. It's just that, IMO, there's a difference between being a great singer and a great a) entertainer, b) lyric interpreter (especially of one's own poetry), c) instrumentalist, d) provocateur, etc.

Several people on Rolling Stones list are people I'd love to see and hear in concert and whose music I also have great appreciation for but whom I don't consider terribly good vocalists - certainly not among the "100 best singers of all time."
Amos mentioned Jimmy Durante. Another example, IMO, of a wonderful enertainer but hardly a "great singer."

I guess part of what bothers me about a list like this is that there are plenty of wonderful singers who neither write songs nor play instruments. If they are to be 'bumped off' lists of "best singers" by other entertainers because the latter can write great songs or are instrumental vocalists, then where is the acknowledgment for being just that: an excellent SINGER?

28 Nov 08 - 05:00 AM (#2503368)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: GUEST,woodsie

Dylan is a great songwriter and singer. He will still be remembered in 100 years.

28 Nov 08 - 10:24 AM (#2503549)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Little Hawk

I understand what you're talking about, Genie, but you are mistaken about Dylan's range (in his younger years). He had a more considerable range than most male singers do. I know this, because I am a male singer...quite a good one...one who has no trouble holding pitch and singing in a resonant fashion...and I have found it extremely challenging to cover some of Dylan's early songs, simply because he had a greater range than I do. I have a normal range of about an octave and a half.

His ability to go from way down low to way up high in the earlier songs was quite striking, very consistent, and very strong.

His voice has badly deteriorated in the last 2 decades though, maybe the last two and a half decades, and he can't sing anything like he used to now.

I would think that being a heavy smoker has probably damaged his voice more than anything else, but that's just a guess on my part.

Have you seen the film of his live performances at Newport Folk Festival in 63-64-65? That man could sing!

28 Nov 08 - 10:54 AM (#2503571)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: bobad

I think that what puts people off about Dylan's voice is the timbre, which is something one's born with and cannot change, otherwise his singing is spot on pitch and note perfect. This is according to a music professor I once heard on a NPR show, I myself am a non-singer but have always liked the sound of his voice.

28 Nov 08 - 12:35 PM (#2503621)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: pdq

It's hard to tell if this thread is about Dylan or the Rolling Stone's lame singers list.

When the subject of Bob Dylan's voice comes up, there are always the "He can't sing for shit!" crowd and the "Oh yes he can! He's great!" crowd.

Kinda like the old Miller Lite commercials: "Tastes great!" No, it's "Less filling!" Er, this Bob's for you?

About the list, it is, for the most part, American Pop, Rock and Soul from the last 40 years. Almost 40% of the people named are Black, which is out of proportion to the population, which is about 12 percent.

As far as Country singers go, you have to reach back to the performer's roots and birthplace to come up with even the following list.

Roy Orbison

Johnny Cash

Hank Williams

George Jones

Patsy Cline

Buddy Holly

Jerry Lee Lewis

Merle Haggard

Everly Brothers

Stevie Nicks

Willy Nelson

Levon Helms

Dolly Parton

True Country Music people are in bold print and number just six. I see nobody in the Bluegrass field on the Rolling Stones list, nor is there anyone from the Western revival. This shows that these folks have other reasons for their picks, and those reasons have little to do with singing ability.

28 Nov 08 - 12:42 PM (#2503624)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Little Hawk

That's right, specially in the early years. It baffles me that many people apparently cannot hear the melody Dylan is singing in various of his songs. I can hear it. Joan Baez can hear it too. I know this, because when she covers his song (whichever), she sings that melody...the same melody I can plainly hear in Dylan's own original rendition of the song...but in his timber, which is unusual.

Baez's opinion of Dylan's vocal abilities? As she stated in one documentary film I saw about the early days: "He sure could sing."

Now Joan's a very good singer, isn't she? We are all agreed on that. Well, she thought he could sing just fine, and so did many other very fine singers, including a great many on that list of 100.

If you can't hear it, it's because it's not to your personal taste, not because the man can't sing.

Now, what about Tom Waites? That voice takes some getting used to, doesn't it? ;-D

28 Nov 08 - 12:50 PM (#2503630)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Little Hawk

pdq - "This shows that these folks have (some) other reasons for their picks, and those reasons (the other ones, that is) have little to do with singing ability."

I added the stuff in brackets to make your statement a little more moderate, pdq.....but I think you're basically right, because that's the way it usually is with those kind of lists. They reflect the cultural viewpoints and prejudices of the people who contributed. They are only a fragmentary view of reality, like a snapshot taken out of one window that claims to show the entire neighborhood.

28 Nov 08 - 01:30 PM (#2503659)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: David C. Carter

Dylan singing "Moonshiner"sends a shiver down my spine....did back then,still does now.

LH's 12:42PM post says just about what I also feel about the man.
No need to repeat that.

As for Tom Waites,I can't imagine anyone else doing his songs.
Is he a "good singer?" He does what he does with what he has.
I wouldn't want him any other way.

Just my opinion.

David

28 Nov 08 - 01:43 PM (#2503666)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: dwditty

Ummmm, some of you sound a bit like your parents....no?

dw

: )

28 Nov 08 - 02:32 PM (#2503697)
Subject: Rolling Stones 100 Best Singers of All Time list??
From: Genie

Woodsie, I'm not saying Dylan isn't a good, even great, singer. Just that I can think of, oh, at least dozens of others I think are better SINGERS.   And his being remembered 100 years from now would probably be more from his songwriting and overall influence on folk and rock music than for his "singing" ability.

Little Hawk, now that you mention it, some of Dylan's early songs did have a huge range (at least the way Baez sang them). Love Is Just A Four-Letter Word and Boots Of Spanish Leather are two examples.   I guess it's just I'm more accustomed to hearing him sing songs that have about an octave range. (Not that there's anything wrong with that. Some of the best loved songs of all time have about that much range.)

And, yes, I have heard and seen film of Dylan's '60s Newport performances. In fact, one song I definitely prefer his version of to Baez's (despite her gorgeous voice) is "Love Minus Zero." Loved that performance!

ETA, when I started this thread I didn't mean for the focus to be so much on Dylan as on the arbitrariness, short-sightedness, and lack of breadth and historical perspective of Rolling Stone's so-called "100 Greatest Singers of All Time" list.
It's just hard to make that clear in such a short thread title.

: )

28 Nov 08 - 02:34 PM (#2503698)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Genie

... and I see that you've already noticed that, pdq.

28 Nov 08 - 02:44 PM (#2503702)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Genie

BTW, there's a huge difference between saying someone isn't one of "the 100 greatest singers of all times" and saying he or she "can't sing."

28 Nov 08 - 03:01 PM (#2503718)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: pdq

You could twist that concept around a bit and say "only 100 people in history have been good singers". That is, of course, absurd, since there are over 100 people who will be doing shows tonight and Saturday who can sing. Many of them are Bluegrass, Folk and Country artists. Nobody is saying that Dylan is/was not a singer, just perhaps not over-rated.

The Bob should slip below the Top 100, but so should at least half of the people on Rolling Stone's list.

28 Nov 08 - 03:33 PM (#2503746)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Genie

I agree that at least half of the people on Rolling Stone's list wouldn't be considered among the "100 greatest singers of all time" if the people doing the nominating and voting were really familiar with and considering the full array of well-known singers who've been recorded over the past 100 years. Even the past 50 years.

28 Nov 08 - 03:36 PM (#2503751)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: Little Hawk

I bet the top 100 singers of all time would mostly be people we've never even heard of.... ;-)

28 Nov 08 - 07:15 PM (#2503888)
Subject: RE: Bob Dylan on RS 100 Best Singers list!??
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko

" Just that I can think of, oh, at least dozens of others I think are better SINGERS. "

Jeesh... people are so anal about these things!! We can all make lists. Dylan would make my "best singers" list and he would not make others. So who really gives a rats ass? It is just a list, not set in stone. Rolling Stones list served a good purpose - it got people talking.