|
17 Dec 08 - 10:36 PM (#2518554) Subject: BS: Rat poison and foot pain From: katlaughing Do any of you others who take warfarin sodium aka rat poison aka coumadin, have trouble with foot pain? I have had trouble with chronic foot pain for quite some time, off and on, and none of the docs seem to have much of a clue except to say the coumadin may be causing pain in the soft tissues from internal bruising. The podiatrist just wanted to whack me open. My reg. doc, acupuncturist, and I all said no way, not necessary. I found a certified shoe tech who has worked with me for the past year and helped a lot for awhile, but it's worse since late summer. Since none of them seem to have any ideas I went looking online and found that foot pain can be a side effect of coumadin. So...do any of you have this and if so, how do you cope with it? Thanks! katlimping |
|
17 Dec 08 - 11:22 PM (#2518571) Subject: RE: BS: Rat poison and foot pain From: Rapparee I don't take it but knowing the effects of warfarin I can understand how it could cause internal bruising. It sounds to me as if the internal bleeding isn't clotting at all. Are there external signs such as discoloration? And is there an alternative medication? |
|
17 Dec 08 - 11:27 PM (#2518574) Subject: RE: BS: Rat poison and foot pain From: Gurney Kat, I get joint pain if I drink too much coffee! My Doc says that IN SOME PEOPLE it produces gout-like symptoms. A couple of cups a day is fine. Just a possibility. |
|
18 Dec 08 - 12:10 AM (#2518586) Subject: RE: BS: Rat poison and foot pain From: katlaughing Thanks, Rapaire. There's not much bruising on the outside, this time around, except on my arms. The coumadin did get out of whack and has been too high for over a month... I was just hoping someone might know of something which would help. There is no alternative, so the docs tell me, that will be good enough with the mechanical valve. my acu guy tells me I don't need it, but I don't have the kind of *faith* it would take to step out and quit. I wouldn't even consider it. Gurney, thanks, but I don't even drink coffee, nor tea, kn fact no caffeine at all.:-) |
|
18 Dec 08 - 09:01 AM (#2518800) Subject: RE: BS: Rat poison and foot pain From: SINSULL Coumadin and acupuncture sounds like a recipe for disaster, kat, especially if the dosage is too high. Have you tried laying down with your feet raised on pillows? |
|
18 Dec 08 - 09:07 AM (#2518802) Subject: RE: BS: Rat poison and foot pain From: SINSULL Painful feet and toes are listed as a side effect and should be reported to your doctor. From their website: Coumadin side effects Get emergency medical help if you have any of these signs of an allergic reaction: hives; difficulty breathing; swelling of your face, lips, tongue, or throat. Call your doctor at once if you have any of these serious side effects: skin changes or discoloration anywhere on your body; purple toes or fingers; pain in your stomach, back, or sides; low fever, loss of appetite, dark urine, jaundice (yellowing of the skin or eyes); diarrhea, fever, chills, body aches, flu symptoms; easy bruising or bleeding that will not stop; blood in your urine; black, bloody, or tarry stools; nosebleeds, bleeding gums, coughing up blood; feeling weak or light-headed; sudden headache, confusion, problems with vision, speech, or balance; sudden leg or foot pain; or sudden numbness or weakness, especially on one side of the body. Less serious side effects may include: nausea, vomiting, stomach pain; gas and bloating; or hair loss. This is not a complete list of side effects and others may occur. Tell your doctor about any unusual or bothersome side effect. |
|
18 Dec 08 - 09:19 AM (#2518817) Subject: RE: BS: Rat poison and foot pain From: wysiwyg Kat. Get a second opinion on the necessity and dose for the Coumadin. Don't blame a lack of faith for relying on what has helped keep you kicking, but do look into it. Depending on the degree of need for the anti-coag, you may be able to use NSAIDs instead. WHAAAAT?????? Yep, I bleed like crazy whenever I take too much of those as anti-inflammatories, and the internist reminded me that low-dose aspirin is anti-heartattack because it's also a blood thinner. Now don't take MY word for it, get a second opinion and research the science to see if it applies to you. :~) Also your feet may adjust-- remember you are stressing your system differently nowadays with more walking. So the Coumadin side-effect may hit you differently nowadays-- your feets' vascular system may adjust if you don't cut back walking but spread it out more, over time, and wear more layers of shock-absorbers in the shoes. ~S~ |
|
18 Dec 08 - 10:04 AM (#2518866) Subject: RE: BS: Rat poison and foot pain From: PoppaGator Why do they call this medication "rat poison"? |
|
18 Dec 08 - 10:08 AM (#2518868) Subject: RE: BS: Rat poison and foot pain From: wysiwyg Because warfarin (the generic for Coumadin) IS rat poison. Kills rats by stopping their ability to coagulate. ~S~ |
|
18 Dec 08 - 10:09 AM (#2518870) Subject: RE: BS: Rat poison and foot pain From: wysiwyg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfarin |
|
18 Dec 08 - 10:11 AM (#2518872) Subject: RE: BS: Rat poison and foot pain From: maeve Here's the blue clicky |
|
18 Dec 08 - 10:14 AM (#2518875) Subject: RE: BS: Rat poison and foot pain From: wysiwyg From Wiki-P: Purple toe syndrome Another rare complication that may occur early during warfarin treatment (usually within 3 to 8 weeks) is purple toe syndrome. This condition is thought to result from small deposits of cholesterol breaking loose and flowing into the blood vessels in the skin of the feet, which causes a blueish purple color and may be painful. It is typically thought to affect the big toe, but it affects other parts of the feet as well, including the bottom of the foot (plantar surface). The occurrence of purple toe syndrome may require discontinuation of warfarin.[22] Self-testing and home monitoring Patients are making increasing use of self-testing and home monitoring of oral anticoagulation. International guidelines were published in 2005 to govern home testing, by the International Self-Monitoring Association for Oral Anticoagulation.[2] The international guidelines study stated: "The consensus agrees that patient self-testing and patient self-management are effective methods of monitoring oral anticoagulation therapy, providing outcomes at least as good as, and possibly better than, those achieved with an anticoagulation clinic. All patients must be appropriately selected and trained. Currently-available self-testing/self-management devices give INR results that are comparable with those obtained in laboratory testing."[2] [edit] Interactions Warfarin interacts with many commonly-used drugs, and the metabolism of warfarin varies greatly between patients. Some foods have also been reported to interact with warfarin.[1] Apart from the metabolic interactions, highly protein bound drugs can displace warfarin from albumin and cause an increase in INR.[37] This makes finding the correct dosage difficult, and accentuates the need of monitoring; when initiating a medication that is known to interact with warfarin (e.g. simvastatin), INR checks are increased or dosages adjusted until a new ideal dosage is found. Many commonly-used antibiotics, such as metronidazole or the macrolides, will greatly increase the effect of warfarin by reducing the metabolism of warfarin in the body. Other broad-spectrum antibiotics can reduce the amount of the normal bacterial flora in the bowel, which make significant quantities of vitamin K, thus potentiating the effect of warfarin.[38] In addition, food that contains large quantities of vitamin K will reduce the warfarin effect.[1] Thyroid activity also appears to influence warfarin dosing requirements;[39] hypothyroidism (decreased thyroid function) makes people less responsive to warfarin treatment,[40] while hyperthyroidism (overactive thyroid) boosts the anticoagulant effect.[41] Several mechanisms have been proposed for this effect, including changes in the rate of breakdown of clotting factors and changes in the metabolism of warfarin.[42][39] Excessive use of alcohol is also known to affect the metabolism of warfarin and can elevate the INR.[43] Patients are often cautioned against the excessive use of alcohol while taking warfarin. Warfarin also interacts with many herbs, including—but not limited to—the following:[44] Ginkgo (a.k.a. Ginkgo Biloba), which is commonly used to increase brain blood flow, prevent dementia, and improve memory. However, ginkgo may increase blood pressure, and may increase bleeding, especially in people already taking certain anti-clotting medications such as warfarin. St. John's Wort is commonly used to help with mild to moderate depression. However, it may prolong the effects of certain anesthetic drugs and reduce the effects oral contraceptives and anti-organ transplant rejection medications, and interfere with warfarin. Ginseng is commonly used to help with fatigue and weakness. However, ginseng may increase blood pressure and heart rate and may increase bleeding, especially in people already taking certain anti-clotting medications such as warfarin. Garlic (as a supplement, not in the diet) is commonly used to help lower high cholesterol levels, high triglycerides, and high blood pressure. However, may increase bleeding especially in people already taking certain anti-clotting medications such as warfarin. Ginger is commonly used to help nausea and poor digestion. However, it may increase bleeding, especially in patients already taking certain anti-clotting medications such as warfarin. Between 2003 and 2004, the UK Committee on Safety of Medicines received several reports of increased INR and risk of hemorrhage in people taking warfarin and cranberry juice.[45][46][47] Data establishing a causal relationship is still lacking, and a 2006 review found no cases of this interaction reported to the FDA;[47] nevertheless, several authors have recommended that both doctors and patients be made aware of its possibility.[48] The mechanism behind the interaction is still unclear.[47] ~S~ |
|
18 Dec 08 - 10:42 AM (#2518897) Subject: RE: BS: Rat poison and foot pain From: katlaughing Thanks, folks. It is not a sudden pain just come on; it started out from injuries to both feet three or more years ago, but the coumadin seems to have made it worse. It is chronic and my docs, all of them: cardio, podiatrist, and internist, know all about it. Plus, I am moitored very closely at the coumadin clinic at the hospital. Those gals/nurses, know more about it than the docs, I am convinced, AND they honour what I tell them, i.e. if I tell them I *feel* there is a problem with the levels, etc. they believe me and test it! I had an at-home tester, briefly. It was so inaccurate, we sent it back. I think I have read everything there is on coumadin and I've been on it 3.5 years now. There are no alternatives, at this point. The Brits were working on one, but it was put to a stop because of something not working right or something. Can't take NSAIDs, I am allergic. Oh, and I have not been walking except the bare minimum...the pain is too great, so it doesn't feel as though it is too much exercise, etc. Acu and coumadin are fine as the acu needles don't go in that far...there's never any bleeding from them. I'd love to tell allopathic medicine to take a flying leap on this, but now is not the time. Now, here's an ironic thing: I wear the ortho-boot for a few days, the one painful foot starts feeling REALLY good so I try just wearing my shoes (ortho with custom inserts)for an hour in the morning. Both feet hurt like hell so I go back to the boot and one shoe. That night the one in the boot is still feeling fine, the OTHER foot starts freakin' out and hurting like hell. There is a specific pressure point I can push on, which, once i get past the pain, actually helps. I think I will see if I can find a good reflexologist. My doc used to have a doc-in-training, an osteopath like him, only she was REALLY good at manipulation of the feet. I almost cried when she left. I am going to the Shoe Guy either today or Saturday and see if he can make any new adjustments on the inserts. Something has got to give. I feel frustrated, tired, and angry. I am working on visualising me walking free and easy with no pain. If ya want to add to that, please do...it will be appreciated.:-) Thanks a bunch. I'd still like to hear from anyone else might be on coumadin, too. |
|
18 Dec 08 - 11:12 AM (#2518928) Subject: RE: BS: Rat poison and foot pain From: wysiwyg I think I will see if I can find a good reflexologist. My doc used to have a doc-in-training, an osteopath like him, only she was REALLY good at manipulation of the feet. I almost cried when she left. I am going to the Shoe Guy either today or Saturday and see if he can make any new adjustments on the inserts. Something has got to give. I feel frustrated, tired, and angry. I am working on visualising me walking free and easy with no pain. If ya want to add to that, please do...it will be appreciated.:-) Gotcha. Watch the herb tie-in tho too, OK? If no reflexologist, another DO? ~S~ |
|
18 Dec 08 - 11:21 AM (#2518937) Subject: RE: BS: Rat poison and foot pain From: katlaughing No herbs - no worries. Haven't done any in a long time.:-) It takes weeks to get into any doctor here. I have an appt. with my doc next week; we'll see what he says/can do, if anything. He's good when he does manipulation...he's just never offered to do the feet, so I'll ask. At least with him, I only have to pay the co-pay. A reflex etc. will cost much more out of pocket. I think I mainly needed to whine and ask my friends to listen. Thanks to you all! |
|
18 Dec 08 - 11:32 AM (#2518943) Subject: RE: BS: Rat poison and foot pain From: wysiwyg Bingo-- use what you have, with better intentionality. (((KAT))) Better go pay the fine in the Auction, tho. :~) But rant anytime in PMs (as you know). Let's take another approach-- the Morgan view. Look at it all from that view, and what is the best decision you can make for you (and your whole extended fam/people you love best)? = What will keep you OUT? ~S~ |
|
18 Dec 08 - 11:56 AM (#2518978) Subject: RE: BS: Rat poison and foot pain From: catspaw49 Kat knows I've been on Coumadin for about ten years now and Karen has as well. It'd be great if there was some better alternative but there just isn't. Although the Coumadin Killers are well known, the lesser known are those things which enhance the effect.........like horseradish which is often not mentioned for some reason. Over the years I've had some wacky protime readings that made no sense and we finally traced it to horseradish! Seriously! If I eat a half teaspoon of horseradish my number increases by more than a half point. Anyway, no help here kat........Can't think of a thing that hasn't already come up. Spaw |
|
18 Dec 08 - 12:08 PM (#2518994) Subject: RE: BS: Rat poison and foot pain From: katlaughing Thanks, Spaw, and Susan. Spaw...that's the thing...I seem to be an anomaly..my ups and downs don't follow their guidelines at all. AND, I eat the same damn thing everyday...because I want to and like it, but it makes it easy for all kinds of reasons, including the coumadin and lightening my load.:-) Susan, I am committed to Morgan almost everyday and he is a great mood lifter. I have cancelled out on driving to get him, today and don't know if his dad will drop him off for a couple of hours or not...I hope so, but it's up to them. Doing stuff with him keeps me out.:-) |
|
18 Dec 08 - 01:10 PM (#2519052) Subject: RE: BS: Rat poison and foot pain From: peregrina Arnica cream is widely touted over here for bruises and sprains:I'd say it works for both. It is sold in regular pharmacies as well as alternative ones, as a gel and as a cream. It is one of those natural remedies that needs the directions read for side effects etc. because it is doing something. |
|
18 Dec 08 - 01:26 PM (#2519065) Subject: RE: BS: Rat poison and foot pain From: wysiwyg Susan, I am committed to Morgan almost everyday and he is a great mood lifter. I know, that's why I invoked his image: so you can be reminded to use it whenever you have an issue to think your way thru, whenever your mood/pain/anything get in the way. He's your most-direct line to What to Do. :~) ~S~ |
|
18 Dec 08 - 03:07 PM (#2519148) Subject: RE: BS: Rat poison and foot pain From: katlaughing LOL...maybe, Susan, maybe. I know he is a BIG part of my life at the moment. Next year he will start kindergarten! peregrina, thanks. I have used arnica in the past for pre-coumadin bruises, but it never did as much for me as Zheng gu shui That is GOOD stuff and I thank you for reminding me I need to order more.:-) I got out an elastic strap a different podiatrist gave me years ago and wrapped it around the new hurt...it is helping! |
|
18 Dec 08 - 03:25 PM (#2519169) Subject: RE: BS: Rat poison and foot pain From: katlaughing Found some interesting stuff on that link, about Chinese Medicine & Warfarin. In part (my emphasis): As an example of a potential alternative, the drug ximelagatran (brand name: Exanta) is metabolized to yield melagatran, which inhibits only thrombin. This may allow patients to take a single prescribed dosage without having to frequently monitor the INR and adjust dosage; in addition, it appears to have a low level of interactions. As of this writing, the drug is not approved in the U.S., but is being used for some limited applications in Europe (short-term therapy for leg surgeries). A potential role for Chinese blood-vitalizing herbs will still be present even if this (or other alternatives to warfarin) provides a safer anticoagulant therapy. |
|
18 Dec 08 - 03:32 PM (#2519176) Subject: RE: BS: Rat poison and foot pain From: Bert I'm just a poor warfarin stranger... |
|
19 Dec 08 - 03:15 AM (#2519544) Subject: RE: BS: Rat poison and foot pain From: OldPossum If you don't care for the rat poison you could always try bat saliva ... |