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24 Dec 08 - 07:19 AM (#2523701) Subject: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Mass? From: Jack Campin It seems that in Scotland some Rangers supporters and the Catholic Hierarchy have managed to agree on something, namely that the "Hokey Cokey" is an 18th century parody of the Catholic Mass. So the Rangers supporters want to sing it and Cardinal O'Brien wants to ban it. Telegraph article Scotsman article This does not strike me as very plausible, since the dance is quite similar to many Eastern European circle dances (long predating the 18th century) and the tune sounds quite modern. I'd guess it was a product of Jewish emigration from Eastern Europe around 1900, either to London or New York, though I don't have more than seat-of-the-pants intuition to back that up. So, anybody know the origins of: - the Hokey Cokey itself? - this piece of urban folklore? |
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24 Dec 08 - 07:30 AM (#2523711) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Mass? From: John MacKenzie Heard this on the radio yesterday. I had to recheck my calendar in case it was April 1st already. WHAT A LOAD OF NUMPTIES !!! I never cease to be amazed at the infantile and petty bickering, between these two clubs. |
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24 Dec 08 - 07:41 AM (#2523718) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: Paul Burke You might laugh, but when my mother died, we had a Requiem Mass for her, as she would have wished- and intended to do what we've always done at Catholic funerals or weddings, which is follow what everyone else does (we forgot the moves years ago). But- we were family- front row- couldn't see everyone else. The priest eventually took pity on us, and started announbcing, "We stand for this part of the Mass" etc. I've always thought it was closer to one finger, one thumb keep moving, than to the hokey cokey. |
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24 Dec 08 - 07:59 AM (#2523734) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: SINSULL Hocus pocus is a parody/corruption of "hic corpus est". Is Hokey Cokey the same as Hokey Pokey? You put your left foot in...? |
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24 Dec 08 - 08:32 AM (#2523759) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: Jack Campin Apparently - I've never heard it called anything but Hokey Cokey, but seemingly "Hokey Pokey" is the Irish name for it. |
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24 Dec 08 - 08:35 AM (#2523760) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: SINSULL There are threads on the Hokey Pokey here. The accredited author died recently. I will have to do a search. |
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24 Dec 08 - 08:37 AM (#2523761) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: SINSULL Cut and paste this into your post: thread.cfm?threadid=57515&messages=33#904824 |
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24 Dec 08 - 08:50 AM (#2523767) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: Melissa 'Hokey Pokey *IS* what it's all about! It's is the old English bastardization of the words "Hoc est Corpus" or "This is my Body" which are the words of the priest in the pre-Vatican II Tridentine Mass at the moment of transubstantiation. Given that Christ said "Unless you eat my body and blood, there is no life within you," we can see that according to ancient Christian teaching the promise of eternal life is impossible for those who fail to follow Christ's explicit commandment here, and the fulfillment of which can only be experienced within the discipline of the Holy Roman Catholic Church's Masses.' from: http://www.behindthename.com/bb/arcview.php?id=96334&board=gen and here's another mudcat thread: Hokey pokey and the Druids http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=11455 |
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24 Dec 08 - 09:13 AM (#2523781) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: Jack Campin There's no evidence linking "hocus-pocus" with "Hokey Cokey"/"Hokey Pokey". The suggestion in the other thread, that the phrase "hokey pokey" might come from the sales pitch of Italian ice cream sellers, sounds a lot more reasonable, but it still doesn't get anywhere towards the dance and its associated song. BTW the 1904 song from the Greig-Duncan collection that Joe quoted is a variant of "Coulter's Candy", which uses a completely different tune. The thread on "Hinkumbooby" submitted to the DT from Robert Chambers (presumably by Murray Shoolbraid) locates a version of the dance in early 19th century Scotland, and the tune was "Lilliburlero", long associated with sectarian Protestantism, but there's no link with the Mass and "Lilliburlero" is nothing like the "Hokey Cokey" tune. |
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24 Dec 08 - 09:19 AM (#2523786) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: SINSULL hoc est corpus hic est calix got my genders screwed up. |
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24 Dec 08 - 09:22 AM (#2523788) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: Melissa Hokey Pokey ice cream was vanilla with chunks of honeycomb or toffee.. |
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24 Dec 08 - 09:42 AM (#2523802) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: Jack Campin It still is, unfortunately. Hokey Pokey is the crunchy toffee-and-bicarbonate mixture that looks like freeze-dried diarrhoea, tastes like candied industrial effluent and locks your teeth together like superglue. You could buy it in huge slabs when I was a kid in New Zealand and it's still sold here in Scotland 50 years later. No obvious link between that stuff and the dance/song, though. |
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24 Dec 08 - 10:02 AM (#2523820) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: Dave Hanson Holy moly I never knew that. eric |
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24 Dec 08 - 10:24 AM (#2523832) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: Melissa That sounds like an ugly treat, Jack! |
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24 Dec 08 - 11:34 AM (#2523896) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh When I saw an introductory BBC Scotland clip about this most recent manifestation of "let's see how offended we can get about something", a clip which ended with some singing/dancing children shouting "Rah! Rah! Rah!" at the end of what I had always thought was the whole "Hokey Cokey" song/dance, I assumed that the complaint was going to be made by the Rangers group about Celtic supporters making a reference to the Irish Republican Army, i.e. the I.R.A., sometimes known as "The RA". The "Hoc est corpus" derivation doesn't strike me as plausible as the "Ecco un poco" one, by the way, but even allowing that Celtic supporters, or the Catholic Hierarchy, can get all het up about some imagined slight to their Mysteries of Faith, would it not be a good idea to start the Urban Myth that the "Rah! Rah! Rah!" bit is indeed a reference to the I.R.A. (even though it sounds rather like something shrilled out by the supporters of some Hockey team at a Ladies Finishing School), so that BOTH sets of "numpties" can get all offended at different bits of the same God-awful lump of keich? At least if they're "singing" at one another they're no' kickin' fuck out of one another (or smashing the windows in Argyle Street). |
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24 Dec 08 - 12:02 PM (#2523926) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: SINSULL Sounds like Chocolate Sponge - a treat here in the states with the airy sweet stuff coated in chocolate - dark or milk. I love it but never have it. |
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24 Dec 08 - 12:56 PM (#2523944) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: John MacKenzie Cinder toffee to you Mary |
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24 Dec 08 - 02:24 PM (#2524015) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: Joe Offer It's true about press coverage, and it's even more true about the Internet - one lunatic can be seen as representative of an entire group. The Catholic Church has more than its fair share of lunatic bishops - but in general, the voice of the majority and the pope seem to be a bit more rational. They also sound a lot more rational if you listen to what they say in context, and not how they're quoted in some newspaper or on an Internet blog. Take another look at the cited article about the Hokey-Cokey, which comes from telegraph.co.uk. Note that the article does say it was Peter Kearney, a spokesman for Cardinal Keith O'Brien, who said the song had disturbing origins. I wonder what it is the Cardinal himself actually said, if he said anything. In another Telegraph article, the Bishop of Lancaster (UK) looks silly saying that educated Catholics have sown dissent and confusion in the Church (telegraph.co.uk). I've read a fair amount of other material on what was said by the Bishop (although I have not found the original statement) - and it does appear that the Good Bishop may be more than a bit daft. Then again, maybe not. Much of what is said in both Telegraph articles seems to be an extrapolation from a brief quotation, which may or may not have been completely rational if read in context. When I was a kid in the 1960's, I heard from a classmate or teacher in Catholic school that "hocus pocus" was an intentional slur on the words of consecration, "hoc est enim corpus meum," but nobody did anything to ban the term or say it was sinful to use it. I don't know whether that's the origin of "hocus pocus" or not, but that was the Conventional Wisdom. And I suppose, it's easy to extrapolate and say that "Hokey Pokey/Cokey" has the same origin as "Hocus Pocus." Many Catholic bishops follow a practice that drives me crazy, although there is a certain logic to it - they acknowledge every complaint, no matter how crazy, with a serious response. Then, they do nothing more. If Mrs. McGillicuddy thinks Father Circumspect is gazing a little too lustfully at women in short skirts, the Bishop's office sends Mrs. McG a letter full of tut-tuts and makes her feel she has been heard, and then does nothing further. This may have been a contributing factor to the sexual abuse crisis in the Catholic Church - bishops get so many unfounded complaints, that they tend to acknowledge all complaints with platitudes and then ignore all of them. In this case, it seems some people complained to the bishop's office about the use of the song at football games, and some clerk who works in the bishop's office said the song had "disturbing origins," and the Telegraph made a story of it. Reference to this Telegraph article was posted in a previous "Hokey Cokey" thread a couple of days ago, and I hoped that would be the end of it. I guess that was too much to hope for. -Joe- |
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24 Dec 08 - 02:30 PM (#2524019) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: Melissa If you're talking about the link I posted, Joe, sorry to offend. |
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24 Dec 08 - 02:40 PM (#2524022) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: John MacKenzie I think you need to look at this in the light of the stupid hatemongering that has gone on for too many years in Glasgow, between Celtic [Catholic supporters] and, Rangers [Protestant supporters] I don't wish to be dismissive of an opinion coming from a man with your background Joe, but I really think that if you haven't lived in and around Glasgow/Central Scotland, you can have no idea of the squabbles this rivalry engenders. People have been murdered in Glasgow just for supporting the 'wrong' side. It really is a matter of life and death for some of the knuckle draggers who espouse whichever team. JM |
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24 Dec 08 - 03:22 PM (#2524045) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: Bernard When the fellow who wrote the Hokey Cokey was being buried they had trouble getting him in his coffin... they put his left leg in, right leg out, right leg in, then they shook it all about... ;o) |
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24 Dec 08 - 03:50 PM (#2524058) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: Joe Offer No offense taken, Melissa. I might be offended by the Telegraph, if my hunch is correct that they have "spun" a mountain from a molehill. Hi, John- I know the "Hokey-Cokey" song is one of many aspects of the Celtic/Ranger squabble - I just don't believe that the Telegraph is correct in saying that the Cardinal has taken a position on the song. And I don't believe the song was originally intended to be a perversion of the Catholic Mass. -Joe, who learned the "Hokey-Pokey" in a U.S. Catholic school- |
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24 Dec 08 - 03:50 PM (#2524060) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: Betsy As a Roman Catholic - and given that the explanations in the thread indeed have merit - I can still find nothing to get upset about. I shall always understand it as a lovable piece of nonsense - probably more English i.e. rather than Irish Scottish or Welsh "traditions" in our Isles). I remember some 40 years ago at someone's 21st Birthday full of drink , a group of mates including some nationally known folk singers did the whole bit including your left ball in .....etc . Magic. I understand the need of some to explore the derivation, to be informed, and, to inform us on these pages, which IS interesting, but you would think that the top people in the Catholic and Protestant churches would have better things to occupy their supposed intellects. Everybody should try to learn to laugh, and enjoy the Hokey Cokey for the bit of fun which it undoubtedly is, and has entered our working class tradition. To highlight any other deep-seated meanings - which are relatively lost in time, gives oxygen - to a non deserving cause. F&cking hell we're still "celebrating" Guy Fawkes night - does anyone imagine that the large amount of money spent (millions) by dipstick individuals ,Councils, and other Large and small organisations throughout the land, on expensive fireworks, are celebrating the capture of a CATHOLIC entering the houses of Parliament with the intention of blowing it up ? Most of them haven't a clue - but that's what English people like to do - so let them get on with it. Can we do the Grand Old duke of York next ?(Only kidding ) Compliments of the Festive Season to all Mudcatters and their families and friends of whatever creed or non belief , and let's hope one of your kids doesn't ask you "Was baby Jesus a Catholic, Protestant or a Jew.? Cheers Betsy . |
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24 Dec 08 - 03:53 PM (#2524062) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass From: Alice Hokey Pokey (and all things related) A CLASSIC joke on Mudcat from earlier days of the forum. It's worth the time to go back and read the thread for a chuckle. |
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24 Dec 08 - 05:29 PM (#2524111) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: Joe_F The suggestion that "hocus-pocus" is a mockery of "hoc est corpus" is old (1694), but the OED deprecates it as mere "conjecture". It seems that in the early 17th century it was the nickname for a conjuror or juggler, and was the beginning of a longish piece of mock Latin bearing no resemblance to the Mass. |
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25 Dec 08 - 05:39 AM (#2524326) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: John MacKenzie Adj. 1. hokey - effusively or insincerely emotional; "a bathetic novel"; "maudlin expressions of sympathy"; "mushy effusiveness"; "a schmaltzy song"; "sentimental soap operas"; "slushy poetry" kitschy, maudlin, mawkish, schmaltzy, schmalzy, bathetic, sentimental, slushy, soppy, soupy, mushy, drippy emotional - of more than usual emotion; "his behavior was highly emotional" 2. hokey - artificially formal; "that artificial humility that her husband hated"; "contrived coyness"; "a stilted letter of acknowledgment"; "when people try to correct their speech they develop a stilted pronunciation" stilted, artificial, contrived affected, unnatural - speaking or behaving in an artificial way to make an impression Interesting word. I first heard the word used in a Bing Crosby Bob Hope number, where Hope is described as having 'a hokey nose' Wonder where the word came from? |
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25 Dec 08 - 05:43 AM (#2524327) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: The Sandman its inaccurate anyway,the high anglican church[which is still protestant,has a Father[similiar to a priest],who makes similiar invocations to the catholiic priest,and also waves incense etc. it is a classic case of Rangers fans being ignorasnt of all branches of the protestant church. |
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25 Dec 08 - 06:36 AM (#2524337) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: John MacKenzie Maybe that's because we don't have CofE in Scotland Dick. High Church is Anglo Catholic, and would attract opprobrium from either side, as they'd both find things to hate about it. In my book, it's only not Catholic because Henry the 8th said it wasn't, in many other respects there is little to chose between the two. JM |
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25 Dec 08 - 11:57 AM (#2524437) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: Melissa John M, I always thought 'hokey' came from the word 'hoax'..? |
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26 Dec 08 - 09:02 AM (#2524896) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: Steve Gardham This has all probably been said on a previous thread but surely the Hokey Cokey is simply an adaptation, by Canadian Jimmy Kennedy during WWII, of the Europe-wide 'Here we go Lubin Loo'. FWIW lots of people I know in Hull, England use the phrase 'hokey cokey' nowadays as a light-hearted extension of 'okay'. |
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26 Dec 08 - 09:37 AM (#2524906) Subject: RE: Origins: the Hokey Cokey and the Catholic Mass? From: Jack Campin According to the OED, "hoax" dates from around 1800, which is more than 100 years after "hocus-pocus". They say there's no evidence to link the two, but it's a plausible guess that "hoax" derives from "hocus". I don't see any resemblance between the tunes for the Hokey Cokey and Lubin Loo. Maybe that's because we don't have CofE in Scotland Dick. High Church is Anglo Catholic, and would attract opprobrium from either side, as they'd both find things to hate about it. The CoE in Scotland is called the Episcopalians, known as "Piskies" to most people in Scotland on the Protestant side of them. No subjunctives about it, most Rangers supporters do see them as covert Catholics. (Historically they were a lot more strongly aligned with the Jacobites than the Scottish Catholics were - i.e. in Scottish political terms they were more Catholic than the Pope). |