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21 Jan 09 - 06:55 PM (#2545521) Subject: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: Becks Just wondered what peoples thoughts were on this one... I am about to record my first solo CD and thinking do I call it an album or an EP. My songs are going to end up being quite long. I currently have 8 tracks that I am ready to record, I have others but they are not quite ready as I am still playing round with them and do not want to rush them for the sake of having more tracks. These 8 tracks will end up being the same length of an average album they are at least 6 mins long each when I add instrumentals, because it only has 8 tracks can I call it an album? Or will people be a little miffed that they buy a CD with only 8 tracks on it for the same price as an average album even though it is just as long (if not longer) and they are getting the same amount of music? I was planning on recording 1 Traditional track, 1 cover and 6 of my own composistion, do you think this is reasonable? I could at a push bump it up to another 2 of my own to make it a 10 track CD but I am reluctant to rush the music for the sake of it, only to find after I record it I come up with a better arrangement for the extra 2 and change them. I'd rather save them for when they are ready. What do people think? Any advice would be appreciated. Becks |
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21 Jan 09 - 07:11 PM (#2545537) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: Jack Campin I'd call 48 minutes rather short measure. I don't care about the number of tracks but I'd expect more than an hour unless there is some special reason for the CD to be ultra-short. |
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21 Jan 09 - 07:15 PM (#2545540) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: sharyn I've jsut finished recording my first CD and I, too, have several long tracks. I probably recorded twenty songs and then chose twelve out of them that I was the most satisfied with -- some I will record again on my next CD. I like twelve as a number: there's enough room to list all of the titles on the back. I think eleven would be O.K., too. One idea: look at CDs you enjoy and see how much music those artists gave you. But only you can say what suits you. I would feel short-changed by a mere eight cuts unless I already loved your music so much that I wanted it at any price and in any format. I think it is good to be generous with your listeners without fatiguing their ears. |
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21 Jan 09 - 07:21 PM (#2545545) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: Folkiedave From a radio programme point of view (assuming you would like it played on radio) best to put some shorter tracks around 3.30 minutes. I do play long tracks (from Chris Wood for example) but often look for stuff around 3.30 Most people do the same. (IMHO) |
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21 Jan 09 - 07:22 PM (#2545547) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: ClaireBear Like Jack, I don't care a rat's whisker how many tracks, but I do expect a CD to have about 60 minutes of content or more. |
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21 Jan 09 - 07:26 PM (#2545552) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Hi Becks: I'm jumping in on this one perhaps a bit prematurely, but let's label this one, "first thoughts." First, what do you intend to DO with the album/EP? Will you be touring and selling it "door to door" at your shows? Are you thinking of remaining a local/regional act with no intention of playing on the world stage? Have you done your homework? Contacted radio stations, created a website & MySpace page? Are you intending to reach an internet audience as well as your local circuit? Are you aware of digital music distributors such as TuneCore in New York? Do you have Management? PR People? A PLAN? My advice at the get go is to slow down so you can go fast. Unless you like burning money... Write out a plan. Do you intend to have a Hit Single from the album? Have you seriously considered the ORDER of the tunes? Are you making it hard for DJ's to track your tunes? Photos? A persona? How will you present yourself to the world community? Folk Artist, Crossover potential? Gee, I could get lucky and do a "James Blunt!" You are in a SERIOUS business, and trust me, they don't call it the Music BUSINESS for nothing... And all of this is just off the top of my head. Stream of conciousness thinking if you will, popping up from the depths... Pity if you should fall on your face with your project. Or, as the old joke goes,"Doctor! DOCTOR! It hurts when I do this!" "THEN DON'T DO THAT!" The Doctor replies... Create that battle plan Becks, your wallet will Thank You for it... And uh, don't forget there were 100,000,000 iPods sold. That was 6 months ago. That doesn't include OTHER MP3 players. Don't forget those MP3's... Best of Luck...bob |
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21 Jan 09 - 07:36 PM (#2545561) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: RTim I am about to do the final edits and mixing of a new CD and the length is around 70 minutes - all traditional tracks.
There are 32 tracks, some are very short spoken tracks ) Tim Radford |
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21 Jan 09 - 08:40 PM (#2545605) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: John on the Sunset Coast I know that LP, EP, 45 rpm and 78 rpm recordings are pretty much obsolete, but has anybody ever figured out how many grooves most old fashioned vinyl/shellac have? The answer--one on each side (except for some early platters recorded on only one side). There is one continuous groove per side. |
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21 Jan 09 - 09:26 PM (#2545638) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz John: That question/joke is older than the combined ages of all Mudcatters...:0) bob |
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21 Jan 09 - 09:41 PM (#2545659) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: John on the Sunset Coast And how old would that be, Bob? I'm contributing nearly 70 years. I know several others on the 'Cat are at least in their sixties...that takes us back a couple of hundred years. I'll guess they found it written in the baths at Babylon. I didn't claim it was original, it just came back to me like the cat of song. |
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21 Jan 09 - 11:29 PM (#2545712) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: GUEST,Gerry If Total Playing Time is prominently displayed on the back of the CD case and it comes to significantly over 50 minutes I, for one, would not be miffed to see that there are only 8 tracks. As for radio, I, too, sometimes look for tracks under 3:30 so I can play as many artists as possible in my one-hour show. On the other hand, this coming Sunday I'm doing a show where I deliberately selected the longest track on each album I'm playing. Partly out of laziness - this way, I only have to prepare something to say about 8 songs, instead of my usual 14 or so - partly so the audience can enjoy some long pieces of music. So, if you're hoping for radio play, I endorse the suggestion above that you go for more of a mix. Concerning the number of grooves on an LP, I believe that some have been produced with more than one groove on a side, so what you get depends on where you put the needle down. Talk about unfriendly to radio! |
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22 Jan 09 - 03:36 AM (#2545795) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: Will Fly It's worth remembering that a CD can take an hour's worth of music and a little more. So - much depends on how you want to fill it and how much you want to charge. If it's a full hours-worth - charge appropriately. If it's "EP" length - also charge appropriately. The danger with fillinf the time completely is that you might not be able to attain a consistent quality - on that, only you can comment. Bellowhead's first output recording was "EP-onymous" (good title, huh?) and contained just 5 tunes - but I play it in the car radio all the time. Can't remember what it cost, but there are 5 quality tracks there - and that's what matters in the end. |
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22 Jan 09 - 10:50 AM (#2546078) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz John: 70? That means you're just a boy! If George Burns could come up with new material, so can you...:0) bob |
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22 Jan 09 - 11:06 AM (#2546095) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: GUEST,woodsie Quality is more important. Better to have 8 outstanding tracks than adding filler tracks. Also the cost of the CD should be relative to the length. The names Long Player and EP are not relevant. In fact a CD that is called EP should technically contain more music than a standard one. After all EP means Extended Play and referred to 7" discs. There was also the format called Maxi single in the 70s. this played at 45 rpm instead of the 33.3 rpm of an EP. Then there were 12" singles ... |
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22 Jan 09 - 11:21 AM (#2546111) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: Terry McDonald Hmmm - interesting question. I recorded my first CD, the wittily (?)entitled 'Secret Diary of a Floor Singer' a couple of months ago. It has 13 tracks but runs for only 43 minutes. It never occurred to me to time anything. On the other hand, it sells for only £5 so I don't feel too guilty about. I'll make sure that the follow up, 'The Long Awaited Second Album' (to be recorded in April of this year) has more tracks and lasts about an hour. It'll still be £5 though! |
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22 Jan 09 - 11:30 AM (#2546118) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: GUEST,Crag Rat Most cds are too long nowadays. For a coherent artistic statement - as opposed to just a collection of songs - I reckon that somewhere between forty and fifty minutes is plenty. If people want more they can always play it again. |
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22 Jan 09 - 11:37 AM (#2546128) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker The CD format of nearly an hour and a half is excellent for 'best of' compilations and re-issue "2 for 1's" origional LPs.. but far too many new CD's just can not justify their over-extended playing time being too far long, containing much too much mediocre filler material. Personaly, I'd aim for an optimum of 40 to 45 mins of best quality new material, with no track over 4 mins long unless absolutely justified by merit of strong writing and performance, or the requirements and conventions of specific genres of lengthier composition. I'm convinced the time restictions imposed by the old vinyl LP format genuinely improved the creative discipline and concentration of classic artists from the vintage era of 1960's/1970's golden age of recording... ..but then, I prefere concise & condensed bursts of brilliance.. In terms of value for money though, I have seriously considered the option of releasing a new CD of LP length studio material, plus a bonus of approx 30 mins live performance of most of the new tracks. But making it very clear in the liner notes that the extra material is distinct and separate from the primary 'official' new material, and included in the 'product' as a 'just for the fun of it value added bonus' |
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22 Jan 09 - 11:57 AM (#2546147) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: breezy Some singers - I avoid the word 'artiste' intentionally - think they have to put a lot of tracks down because they are uncertain of themselves and think they owe it to the world. if they are all traditional then they will be compared to others some of whom are artistes if you have a quality song then record it, if you have enough for a bunch of songs then add them and create an album , but dont go searching to stretch it out because it may devalue the work you want to be known for. leave us wanting more those who demand 60 minutes at least are talking out their backsides as mentioned before, its quality not quantity 8 x 6 mins = 48 is plenty long enough best get on youtube with a sampler 1 min of vocal per song should be enough |
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22 Jan 09 - 12:21 PM (#2546163) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe Give me quality rather than quantity any day! People are so obsessed with getting value for money that they'd prefer overstuffed to perfectly proportioned... If you're worried that 48 minutes is short for an album - and it isn't, it's about right - call it a mini album and shave a couple of quid off the retail price. As for number/length of track - whatever works. Just don't let anything outstay its welcome... Having said that, I have an album called Exterminating Angel by Cloudland Canyon/Lichens containing one 32 minute track. Meanwhile, the song Baby Pink Lemonade by Acid Mothers Temple clocks in at about one hour. |
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22 Jan 09 - 12:35 PM (#2546177) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: Becks I have done a very rough scratch track of the arangements that I require and all 8 tracks come to around an hours worth of material. I am willing to cut sections if they are too much and pointless and equally I may add sections when I hear them in there entirity. The arrangments are something that I have worked a long time on getting right. While songs contain a lyrical part which is the essense of the song and tells the story, some are also followed by an instrumental variation (some with a differnet name to the song), some changing drastically and veering into a slip jig or something to that effect, some a continuation of a theme. They are not all like this so I have a good variation and every song structure is not the same. I suppose I could split them up so they become 2 tracks that lead one into the other but I dont really want to get that horrible pause while the next track loads. I am being very carefull in my arrangements to make some of them of use for radio play for example a song I have written is just less than 4 minutes long but is followed by a variation, the radio could easily fade it out after the song without comprimising the music. Are people put off by a CD that has tracks 6 - 9 minutes long even if some are in two halfs? |
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22 Jan 09 - 12:39 PM (#2546181) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: Becks Thanks, Mr Cringe you worded it much better than me... I was typing when you posted. "As for number/length of track - whatever works. Just don't let anything outstay its welcome... " I have been very carefull not to make any of the tracks drag on and outstay it welcome is what I was trying to say. |
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22 Jan 09 - 12:40 PM (#2546183) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Yikes... |
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22 Jan 09 - 12:43 PM (#2546188) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: Becks "Yikes..." Why Yikes? |
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22 Jan 09 - 12:44 PM (#2546190) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: sharyn I never look at length of cuts when I buy a CD, maybe because I sing traditional ballads, among other things, and some of them are quite long. I do look at how many songs are on a CD, as I said above. I might wonder why a list was short, but if I liked the singer I might buy it, depending on what was on it. If the singer wsa unknown to me, I'd have to hear a few cuts before buying it. |
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22 Jan 09 - 12:57 PM (#2546198) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker just a reminder that longer duration performances that are stuctured in distinct sections can be precisely indexed on a CD so that they can play either as a continuous performance, or each section can be selected to play as an idividual track if required. There would be no need for any pause or gap in the full version. How clean the stop and start points are would obviously depend on how the track is arranged and edited |
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22 Jan 09 - 12:58 PM (#2546199) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine 8 songs sounds more like an "album" than an "EP" to me, though I think these days the distinction isn't so clear- as Woodsie points out, with vinyl there's a difference in size of disc and playing speed, as well as the actual amount of music on them. Nowadays a CD is a CD, which is capable of holding 74 minutes of music, however much you choose to put on it (apart from mini-CDs, but no-one uses them anyway) Of course, just because you can put over an hour's worth of music on a CD, doesn't mean you ought to. Call me old-fashioned, but I think that the physical restriction of the LP record (2 sides of 25 minutes or so) gave a lot of albums a real focus- how each side begins and ends, how the two sides are similar or different, while keeping within the average person's attention span. It's more important to make a coherent artistic statement than to overload an album for the sake of numbers or running time. I would ask myself why the songs are all so long- are there lots of verses, are the instrumental bits an integral part of the arrangement? Most great albums have a mix of longer and shorter tracks. Is there a balance of moods, light and shade? Does the running order take the listener on a journey, or will they reach for the skip button? Do you have a consistent approach to production? That's just artistic considerations. If you're planning to sell a CD, you should be thinking who's going to buy CDs? How will they hear about it? Where and how? What will you do to promote it? How many, realistically, will you sell? How much will it cost to record, master, design artwork, duplicate? Will you need to borrow money to finance it? Are you hoping to make a name for yourself, make money or both? A few things from my personal experience. My first solo CD had 12 tracks, from just under 3 to just over 4 minutes- total running time is 38:02- no-one has complained it's too short. I was able to keep production costs low, and made my money back within a year. It's had a few reviews, is available online and as downloads, but almost all of my sales are at gigs. My previous band borrowed money to make an album- got a bit of press interest and some great reviews, made just enough money to record an EP. I still have a box of 200 of them ten years later.... |
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22 Jan 09 - 01:10 PM (#2546206) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: treewind There's some recent discussion on this here: Discount CDs at gigs where the thread drifts to discussion of length of album. Over an hour is starting to get too much to listen to in one sitting. On the other hand some people just want to have as much value as possible crammed in, even if they won't be able to bear listening to it all in one go... Anahata |
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22 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM (#2546216) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: Becks My background is a very classical training so I suppose I treat a peice of music as a composisiton rather than a song, the difference now is that amount of influence folk music has had on my writing. My songs tell a story in the true folk tradition but I like to develop them musically and get the most from track. Nothing is there that shouldnt be. There is one or two short tracks but most are longer, they could have been longer but I have tried to reach a comprimise with what I would like to write and what I think peoples attentions spans will appreciate. I think splitting the tracks into seperate halves is my best option, I have seen a few people do that before. I will end up with about 11 tracks that way. |
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22 Jan 09 - 02:07 PM (#2546248) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Continue on the path you have chosen. Produce your CD. Do what you're going to do with it. Wait one year. Return to this thread. Re-read it. And maybe you will uncover the mystery of why God has given us one mouth and TWO ears...BR Sorry Becks...Tough Love...bob |
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22 Jan 09 - 03:17 PM (#2546330) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: GUEST,Crag Rat Long songs are often superb. To give a (non folk) example, The Sweet had a hit in 1978 with Love Is Like Oxygen which was a decent 3 minute pop song. However, the album version has a tremendous instrumental passage which increases the length of the song to about 7 minutes and turns in into an absolute classic. Trust your own judgement. If you enjoy the longer passages, chances are so will a large proportion of your audience. |
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22 Jan 09 - 06:55 PM (#2546524) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: Becks Thanks Crag Rat, I do enjoy the longer passages, I cant help it, I was brought up from an early age on Pink Floyd, Tangerine Dream, Fairport Convention, Mahler, Led Zep & a little Simon and Garfunkle for good measure. Not sure what you get if you mix all them together? I think the message is to do something that I will enjoy producing (without being too selfish), that I am proud of and that others may get some enjoyment out of too even if they do think one or two songs are too long for their taste. I shall opt for quality over quantity. I certainly wont realease it until I am 100% happy with it and I am prepared to be ruthless! You only get one chance at a debut album, I want it to be right. And will price it accordingly when finished to what it is worth, I am sure I will get plenty of opinions on that one. There are a lot of things to consider, thank you everyone for your points. |
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22 Jan 09 - 08:36 PM (#2546584) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: Suegorgeous You got a Myspace, Becks? |
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23 Jan 09 - 04:28 AM (#2546762) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: GUEST,Tom Bliss Becks, if you get your CD mastered by a firm using proper mastering software, (such as Sadie) you can put the track end markers where you like. So you don't need to have any gaps at all. You can mark the transition where song turns to instrumental, and it'll list the piece as two tracks, but play seamlessly. (A very brief lull might be a good idea to let in anyone skipping to the second half though). If you're hoping for radio plays, then mastering is a good idea anyway, and having some 3-4 minute tracks on the card listing is a good idea too. Most DJs look at the track timings before they audition any music, and if yours are all over 8 minutes they may just pick up the next CD. Don't worry about the CD being too long. Time is relative. I own short CDs that I turn off after a few minutes, and long ones that I can't believe is finished already. Quality, scheduling/contrast/flow, and the CD's 'story' matter. Actual duration doesn't. Tom |
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23 Jan 09 - 06:09 AM (#2546807) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: Becks Yes I have a myspace, but they are not an accurate representation of what will be on my CD. www.myspace.com/rebekahfindlaymusic |
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23 Jan 09 - 06:37 AM (#2546816) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: matt milton This strikes me as one of those questions where I feel like asking why you need to ask. For example, Nick Drake's album "Pink Moon" is one of my all-time favourite albums. 11 tracks, clocks in at just under half an hour. Another one of my favourite albums ever is Joae Gilberto's "Voce e Violao". I forget how many tracks, 10-ish, but again it clocks in at less than half an hour. For me, it's an album if it calls itself an album. |
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23 Jan 09 - 06:43 AM (#2546819) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: Banjiman Link to Beck's MySpace To make your lives a little easier! |
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23 Jan 09 - 06:54 AM (#2546824) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: matt milton sorry Mr Gilberto, obviously I know your name is actually spelt Joao, not Joae. Altough Joe Gilberto has quite a nice salt-of-the-(Brazilian)-earth ring to it. Just occurred to me, all of my favourite folk albums of 2008 were around the half-hour mark too. They were also, incidentally, all home-recorded self-released CDRs, and their design and packaging would probably have been described by many as "unprofessional". i couldn't care less: they were my favourite albums of last year. Plus the most expensive of the bunch was 9 quid including p&p while the cheapest was 3. (Should anyone be interested they were: My Dearest Dear by Michael Rossiter; Help the Overdog by Flake Brown; and Boycott Coca Cola by the Boycott Coca Cola Experience.) |
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23 Jan 09 - 07:34 AM (#2546854) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe Thanks for the list above Matt. Sheesh! More stuff to investigate. There is a lot of good stuff comes out on CDr and is almost instantly lost to the world. Mary Hampton's two CDr releases, for example, are in my humble opinion far better than her 'proper album'. And wilfully obscure CDr-heads the Kitchen Cynics should be a household name. Talking about "humble opinions", Bob R above with "Maybe you will uncover the mystery of why God has given us one mouth and TWO ears" might want to consider getting over himself slightly... I almost bristled on Becks' behalf so I did. Good luck Becks. Look forward to hearing whatever you decide to do. Stay true to what feels right. One thing though. You know this 'ere cover version? It isn't, is it? You haven't, have you? Should I be very afraid and whispering those two dreaded words? The one that is a drop of golden sun and the one that might mean lady mountain? Ooo 'eck... |
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23 Jan 09 - 07:40 AM (#2546865) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: matt milton yeah, too right about Mary Hampton. I found her proper album overdid the it's-midnight-in-the-spooky-words-talking-to-the-animals schtick. Preferred the EPs as they had a bit more traditional earthiness to them. I do love that bluesy one on the full-length, though, the one about drinking bees – it is almost funky. Sounds in some ways more like the Pentangle than the Pentangle. If you like Mary Hampton, you should check out the music of my friend Caroline Weeks. Who incidentally is playing a certain London clubnight mentioned in a certain thread about 'Sea shanties' mentioned on theis board... |
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23 Jan 09 - 09:20 AM (#2546946) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: Becks Mr Cringe, you are safe it is not a Ray Lamontagne cover. As much as I love the man himself he isnt suitable for a cover on my album. Just out of interest do you have something against his songs or just him or both? |
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23 Jan 09 - 03:28 PM (#2547276) Subject: RE: How many tracks to expect on album/EP? From: Spleen Cringe Dear Becks, please, please, I beg you, don't ask me to be logical about my irrational Raylaphobia. If you do that I might end up liking him or some such horrors... |