BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????

01 Feb 09 - 12:49 PM (#2554543)
Subject: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Leadfingers

I post this without any comment

Today's paper

---

01 Feb 09 - 12:50 PM (#2554544)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Leadfingers

Blue Clicky Didnt work

---

01 Feb 09 - 01:00 PM (#2554554)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Stilly River Sage

Here it is.

Baptists around here don't know how to keep their religion to themselves. They seem to justify their existence according to how many others they can influence or bring into the fold. It's pernicious. I can imagine that if a patient feels like a captive audience and someone does that, it can be annoying. Or frightening. They might wonder if they'll get the same standard of care of they reject this person's religious ministrations.

SRS

---

01 Feb 09 - 01:15 PM (#2554564)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c

Mrs Petrie said: "I stopped handing out prayer cards after that but I found it more and more difficult [not to offer them]. My concern is for the person as a whole, not just their health.

"I was told not to force my faith on anyone but I could respond if patients themselves brought up the subject

Looks like she didn't stick to the guidelines the second time. I would agree that she did not act professionally - bringing your own personal beliefs to the workplace can make other people feel uncomfortable if they do not agree.

If she was so concerned about the patients why not just pray for them on her own and without their knowledge? Then there would be no problem.

I had to sit in a car with an instructor who spent most of the time telling me all about hs religious beliefs and how much it would improve my life. Needless to say I didn't use him again.

---

01 Feb 09 - 01:17 PM (#2554565)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: McGrath of Harlow

Here you are

Sounds pretty dodgy on the part of the employers, though it's worth bearing in mind that it might not be as straightforward as that report presents it.

---

01 Feb 09 - 01:25 PM (#2554570)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wysiwyg

It might surprise some folks to know that proselytizing in that fashion bothers me, as well. The doctrinal divisions can get pretty complicated and not all "believers" have learned yet how to discuss their faith in a mature, relaxed fashion. This lady sounds like an example-- hasn't learned yet how to be a committed believer in the workplace in a Grace-ious manner. And hasn't learned how to follow guidelines given AND believe. She created a battle (and a barrier) where none was necessary, which hain't Scriptural, neither.

~Susan

---

01 Feb 09 - 01:29 PM (#2554574)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Big Norman Voice

Well in a world where Christians are jailed, or condemned to death for trying to convert Moslems, it seems a bit apposite that this should occur.
Someone on the radio today said. 'I wonder what the reaction would have been, had the nurse been a Moslem?'

---

01 Feb 09 - 01:34 PM (#2554576)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr

Now whilst I think there's something to 'positive thinking' in recovery and prayer can possibly be attached to that, I personally don't want that from a nurse. I have religious beliefs myself, so it's not as if I'm unsympathetic from in perhaps framing or attributing 'positive thinking' towards a more supernatural outlook.

However, the woman in the story is a nurse, a medical practitioner. She's trained an employed in a particular field and praying for patients extends what she's actually meant to do. If she wanted to administer religious support of some kind, perhaps she needs to swap fields and become a hospital chaplain or something. Likewise, I'd baulk at the idea of a hospital chaplain offering to change my catheter or remove some stitches. I know it's well-meant but it's not what they're for.

I find the idea that the prayer-cards interesting too. I like the craft or self-publishing aspect of it, but is it really any different from me handing out pieces of paper explaining how Interplanetary Sky Brothers are coming to save us all and we have to tune our mind to a particular frequency so they can acknowledge we are ready to be saved when the earth dies in 2012? Other than one belief is more familiar than the other?

Also, I'm aware from personal experience that some - I repeat some - Christians have a problem knowing where something like this stops and proselytising starts.

I can understand why her faith is important to her but like everything else, people have to accept that what's important/interesting/necessary to one person is going to be superfluous/boring/unnecessary and irritating to someone else and you run the risk on being called on it, particularly when you broach the subject in an environment where it's not necessarily relevant or applicable.

If this was a first time offence, then I'd see the suspension as being unreasonable, but it seems she'd been warned previously. If I take home a draw-full of stationery from an office once, I might get away with, do it twice and I'd expect to be in serious trouble.

---

01 Feb 09 - 01:40 PM (#2554581)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: SINSULL

Wonder why she has to involve her patients in her praying. Why not just pray for all of them?

---

01 Feb 09 - 01:41 PM (#2554582)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John on the Sunset Coast

If this Jew were to ever have need of that nurse, I would think it a loving kindness if she prayed for my recovery...even if she invoked the name of Jesus. I would pray for her, if the need arose, without mentioning Jesus, and suspect she would be grateful for the prayer.

---

01 Feb 09 - 01:47 PM (#2554587)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wysiwyg

Wonder why she has to involve her patients in her praying. Why not just pray for all of them?

Because some people get really pissed off if you do NOT ask first.

~S~

---

01 Feb 09 - 02:00 PM (#2554599)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell

maybe she did WYSIWYG and I agree would her employers suspened her if she was muslim eh! or any other faith, I mean Britian is a Christian country if you do like it well no one asked you to come here, I mean when I Britian obey the rules.
if this was a muslim country I would obey their rules but they don't obey our laws.

and when someone is praying then what has that got to do with being suspened?

---

01 Feb 09 - 02:00 PM (#2554600)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John on the Sunset Coast

If that is true...how sad of and for them.

---

01 Feb 09 - 02:00 PM (#2554601)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr

WYSIWYG wrote: "Because some people get really pissed off if you do NOT ask first".

How would they know? According to the story, the nurse wasn't just for praying with the patient, but also when the nurse had left the patient. She could have gone home and prayed for them without the person even knowing about them.

Do Christians generally pick-up the phone and have a ring around before bedtime to make sure it's OK to pray for someone?

---

01 Feb 09 - 02:09 PM (#2554610)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L

Goatfell I cannot see how you manage to bring the muslims into this there is no indication of the patients beliefs.Had the patient spoken to the nurse asking to be prayed for that is one thing otherwise she should have done so in the privacy of her own home where the patient need never know that they had been prayed for yet she would have fulfilled her personal beliefs.

---

01 Feb 09 - 02:11 PM (#2554611)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: McGrath of Harlow

I suppose it depends what you mean by prayer. I can't imagine any religious person who wouldn't as a matter of course pray for sick people without waiting for permission. After all, no one would wait for the permission of all the combatants before praying for peace.

And I can't envisage anyone being offended by £Bless You" when they snbeeze. Or a "Goodbye" when parting. Both of which are, after all, prayers.

Praying with someone is a very different matter.

---

01 Feb 09 - 02:22 PM (#2554624)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Gawd, we've lost the plot haven't we.

I mean, someone asks if they'd like a prayer said for them, and all hell breaks loose.

What a grumpy ol' person she was praying for.

I hope God was watching and sat there thinking "Hmmmmmmm...you're down for washing the floors then, when you get up here!"

I'd be very touched if someone asked me if they could mention me in their prayers. How sweet.

Goodness, don't people pray for each other in here, when bad health or bad news strikes.

"I'm keeping you in my prayers.."
"I'm holding you close"

It shows compassion and concern..and a little bit of love too.

What a shame she wasted her kindness on some grumpy ol biddy who then went on to complain, probably because she had nothing better to do.

And why did the carer complain, when the dear lass handed out a prayer card, despite the patient being very happy about it?

Some people have no heart in their souls, and find pleasure in complaining and being horrible to others.

And political correctness feeds it all. I mean accusing her of showing a lack of diversity etc.etc..etc...

Good Lordy!

---

01 Feb 09 - 02:23 PM (#2554626)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Rapparee

If I were in a hospital and found a nurse praying over me I'd probably have one almighty big relapse.

---

01 Feb 09 - 02:28 PM (#2554633)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L

Lizzie Have you ever been rounded on in your own home when you were at your most vulnerable. Believe me it can range from disconcerting to terrifying even things that when you were in good health would not perhaps bother you to such a great extent. The fact this occured in the patients own home increases the offence. Anyone in the medical and emergency services even a humble first aiders are trained that you NEVER inflict your personal beliefs on your casualty.

---

01 Feb 09 - 02:31 PM (#2554638)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Richard Bridge

I'm not a God-botherer, but I don't see why it should bother anyone to be asked if someone could pray for them. I wouldn't want anyone to pray WITH me, but I see no indication of any pressure to that end.

I'd be upset if anyone sacrificed a goat for me though. But if they offered I'd say "No thanks".

---

01 Feb 09 - 02:35 PM (#2554642)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr

Lizzie Cornish wrote: "I hope God was watching and sat there thinking "Hmmmmmmm...you're down for washing the floors then, when you get up here!"

That's part of the issue though, surely? "God was watching"? Whose God was watching? Is the nurse's God, the God that's watching? I doubt, given the nurse's religious views, that 'God' here means anything other than one framed in a very particular way.

Whilst Christians may argue that this view is/can be all-encompassing, people outside that particular framework aren't necessarily inclined to agree with that idea. Even the various Christian denominations don't agree regarding views on God and worship &c and can be quick to differentiate, distinguish and distance.

I'd be very touched if someone asked me if they could mention me in their prayers. How sweet".

There was a bit more to it than including someone in their prayers though. It seems the nurse was also offering the opportunity to go to prayer there and then, with the patient. A bit different than remembering someone in prayers afterwards.

---

01 Feb 09 - 02:38 PM (#2554644)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Meg, from reading what she said, how she asked etc...I'd not have taken offence in the slightest. But then I don't take offence at Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on the door, or people from the local church etc..They're only trying to be kind, and get you to feel the love they feel for their beliefs...

And at the end of the day, does it really matter that much?

Years ago no-one would have complained, but nowadays everyone is brought up to almost look for the opportunity to see something to take offence over.

I think it would just be nice if people could say "Thank you dear, that's very kind of you, but no thanks." ...have a cup of tea and leave it at that, rather than sit there taking umbridge and putting in an official complaint.


I tell you what though, I'd be scared rigid if the surgeon was praying for me, just as I was about to go under...! LOL

Sorry, I'm a former medical secretary, very weird sense of medical humour..

---

01 Feb 09 - 02:43 PM (#2554646)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L

Oh for goodness sake this isnt really about praying it is about a frail elderly person who was made to feel less than safe in thier own home by the very person who was supposed to be looking after them.

---

01 Feb 09 - 02:43 PM (#2554648)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Richard Bridge

Umbrage

---

01 Feb 09 - 02:46 PM (#2554651)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

God is one and only spirit who knows the true answer to 'What is folk music?' wyrdolafr.

All will be revealed to us, one day.



:0)

---

01 Feb 09 - 02:50 PM (#2554653)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Stilly River Sage

What a shame she wasted her kindness on some grumpy ol biddy who then went on to complain, probably because she had nothing better to do.

What a shame she didn't get the message the first time it happened, when she was told to keep her religion to herself. It's like Susan said above, some people have more enthusiasm and less polish or substance when they push their religion on others. I would suggest, Lizzie, that you're the fish in the water who can't see the water she's swimming in. Those of us outside that tank find the water rather putrid.

My son was in a day care program in kindergarten that was run by the local YMCA. Down here they take the "C" as a mandate, not a simple affiliation. I learned early on that the ladies who ran the program were regularly leading the kids in prayer. I asked them not to do that to my son. The idiot who was doing it suggested this was a bad parenting idea because "your son will feel left out." I told her that if they would lay off the religious training (lots of non-christians in the group) then that wouldn't be a problem. These ladies actually STEPPED UP their pressure on my son. I am convinced they thought they were doing him a favor because of what they interpreted my ignorance regarding their sublime beliefs. I pulled him out of there and wrote a scathing letter to the Y.

I actually met that woman again years later; it turns out she is the mother of an acquaintance of my son's, and I picked him up at their house one day and realized who she was. I thought it amusing that she reminded me that she knew him from before and "I taught him at day care." In a pig's eye, she did. I told my son the story of what she had pulled when he was so small; he barely remembered, because he was only there a few weeks. Considering how I characterized her in my letter, I think she'd have done well to never remind me it was she who behaved so badly.

SRS

---

01 Feb 09 - 02:51 PM (#2554655)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jeri

If you want to pray for someone, just do it! Telling them about it isn't praying it's a member-of-the-club thing. If the woman had asked her, fine.

The problem is this: the nurse is in a position of authority and her patients are, to some extent, at her mercy. You don't want to piss someone off or be made to feel like you might when a person has control over your meds, your care, your pain. You don't want to say 'no thank you' and you definitely resent being put in a position where you have to either agree or disagree.

I once worked somewhere where a guy was talking about someone he knew, who he found out was an atheist. Right up until that point he really looked up to this person, but he went from that to near loathing when he found out. I went from respecting this co-worker to wondering why the heck he got so upset and knowing I could never speak freely about my own beliefs in his presence. Now, I was HIS supervisor and I know I could avoid discussing religion with him, but what if the situation had been reversed?

One final thing: when you announce to someone you're going to pray for them, it's about a lot of things, but not prayer. I don't have a problem with someone asking, IF they're in some position of authority which makes it feel dangerous if I say 'no'. Anymore these days, there are a whole bunch of snide religious quips available: 'Well, I know you don't believe, but I'LL pray for you', 'You may not believe in God, but HE believes in YOU' and the like. These aren't even slightly justifiable except as holier-than-thou bitch slapping.

And about countries, countries don't have religions. They have citizens who have religions. The USA is Christian, except for when it's Jewish or Muslim or Navajo or Iroquois or Hindu or atheist or ... whatever. It was founded predominantly by Christians who naturally did what they believed was right, influenced by their religion. But it was the government and the law they created that defines this country, not the religion of the people who put the plan together. I don't know that the UK is that different and still attract immigrants with many different religions.

---

01 Feb 09 - 02:56 PM (#2554660)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: gnu

Well said, Jeri, and others.

---

01 Feb 09 - 03:15 PM (#2554673)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr

Lizzie Cornish wrote: God is one and only spirit who knows the true answer to 'What is folk music?' wyrdolafr".

Hehe. I think there's a few people on this board with Messiah complexes then!

"All will be revealed to us, one day".

Yeah, it will, one day. Until that point, no matter how assured we all are in our faiths, we won't really know until that day. That's why we're all best off not trying to push our beliefs on other people. I can't see how the nurse didn't do exactly that in an environment where prayer was either necessary or appropriate.

If this was a hospice run by nuns or something, I wouldn't have a problem with it as this kind of behaviour would have probably been expected and probably wanted. As it was, old people in their own homes and such, unless there was crucifixes or religious icons around the home, the nurse was probably best off keeping her (well-meaning) mouth shut about religion and prayed for them in her own space.

---

01 Feb 09 - 03:15 PM (#2554674)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Amos

Inviting agreement about prayer is not an act motivated by spiritual faith, but a request for agreement from others, something faith theoretically should be proof against. So the lass was really violating a trust of her profession, IMHO, but not carrying herself with necessary grace, as Susan put it. Had it JUST been about prayer, she would have felt quite comfortable talking to the Almighty about things without asking permission OR informing others. That's not religion, it is a form of showing off.


A

---

01 Feb 09 - 03:25 PM (#2554687)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wysiwyg

Do Christians generally pick-up the phone and have a ring around before bedtime to make sure it's OK to pray for someone?

First, there is no "generally" about Christians, and that is part of the problem. Each person grows in the faith in their own way and time, and along whatever lines of development "happen."

Second, if it is painfully borne upon one that one mustn't pray without asking first, that person is going to be biased toward asking, whether it's appropriate or not.

Third, I know personally of Mudcat relationships that have been based upon respect in these areas across incredible distances of perspective at various times. To err on the side of what one perceives to be respectful self-restraint does not necessarily mean one is showing off or proselytizing. It may mean one is doing the best one can at that particular moment and to the degree of one's best understanding on that particular day.


It's too bad [most] Mudcat discussion on this topic degenerate into sloppy dismissals of fellow human beings. Being human is much more complicated than an online discussion can usually reflect accurately. On this topic we tend more to reflect our own, individual, carefully-hoarded upsets with an unhealthy does of judgmentalism.

It's tiresome for this to keep occurring between friends, innit?

~Susan

---

01 Feb 09 - 03:50 PM (#2554711)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: robomatic

Taking the article as fact, if the nurse merely volunteered to pray for/ with the patient, and the patient said no, the nurse said OK, I personally don't see anything amiss.

News articles are often slanted and get certain facts wrong or leave facts out: What if in fact she mentioned this to the patient more than once, or prayed long and loud within the patient's hearing in spite of the patient's wishes.
On the other hand, the patient may indeed be sensitive and felt a need to report it.

I think the nurse went out on a bit of a limb here and should exercise her religious fortitude and realize that sometimes we're punished for our good deeds because there's a lot of people out there who don't see the world the way we do, and this was a possible, however unlikely outcome of her, for want of a better expression, sticking her neck out.

---

01 Feb 09 - 03:52 PM (#2554713)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine

Nurses are paid to look after people, not to pray for them. That's why hospitals employ chaplains etc.

This isn't about whether it caused offence, (and I can see situations where a patient might well be offended), it's about whether the nurse was behaving in an appropriately professional manner.

---

01 Feb 09 - 03:56 PM (#2554717)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L

Johnny it did not happen in a hospital the woman was a visiting nurse in the patients own home. In hospital there would have been other people about in your own home when you are old sick and frail you are particularrly vulnerable.

---

01 Feb 09 - 04:02 PM (#2554725)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver

Ok so most people around here know I am Christian.... consider the possibility of me suddenly realising (or being told) that I have cancer. I would want all my Christian friends praying for me because I really believe that God does have the power to heal people mirqculously and I have already had a personal miraculous healing. I would probably also put something on Mudcat asking for prayers and good thoughts from all who cared and it would not matter to me if it were a pagan.. a wiccan... or whatever... Why should it matter if a Christian OFFERS to pray for people whether they are in their care or not. Once again it is the Christian belief that is under fire......... Take a look at the threads on here that ask for good thoughts or prayers or whatever.... is not the goodwill of the people... whoever they are and whatever belief important? Does it not strike you as odd that it is usually only the Christians that get knocked for doing their thing?   Perhaps you could ask yourselves why that happens whilst in the pursuit of your own understanding of good and evil. I add that I would ask ANYONE... in any situation if I could pray for them if I felt they needed prayer... They can always say no... but what have they got to lose??? Perhaps they might gain something from my prayer.................. Everyone has choices.
Best wishes, Mike.

---

01 Feb 09 - 04:35 PM (#2554743)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr

WYSIWYG wrote: "First, there is no "generally" about Christians, and that is part of the problem. Each person grows in the faith in their own way and time, and along whatever lines of development "happen."

There's no "generally" about anyone in that respect, but people do share commonalities. In this case, is it typical or a common thing to do for Christians to ask permission to include someone in prayer? I've never heard of this at all. That's why I'm asking and my asking is in the context of trying to highlight the distinction between what Lizzie suggested (including someone in their prayers) and what appears to have happened in this story.


Georgiansilver wrote: "Take a look at the threads on here that ask for good thoughts or prayers or whatever".

Without wanting to come across as arguing for the sake of it, but aren't 'good thoughts' and 'prayers' actually two different things? And, with respect to this story, it's an important distinction, surely? 'Good thoughts' is pretty much a neutral thing and independent of religion, whereas 'prayer' is inextricably linked to some kind of religious belief.

"Once again it is the Christian belief that is under fire..."

It's nothing to do with that the nurse's choice of religion; the Christianity is coincidental to this. It's about whether what the nurse was doing was appropriate or not. Whether the woman is a nurse or there to administer religious support/guidance. Whether using a 'captive audience' like that was an opportunity to proselytise.

I'd make the same argument if the nurse was a Hindu, Muslim, Discordian, Wiccan, Glycon-worshipper, Kemetic, Scientologist or a believer in the Galactic Federation.

---

01 Feb 09 - 04:36 PM (#2554744)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Taken from the link above:

"Caroline Petrie, a committed Christian, has been accused by her employers of failing to demonstrate a "personal and professional commitment to equality and diversity".

She faces disciplinary action and could lose her job over the incident.

Mrs Petrie, a married mother of two, says she has been left shocked and upset by the action taken against her.

She insists she has never forced her own religious beliefs on anyone but politely inquired if the elderly patient wanted her to pray for her – either in the woman's presence or after the nurse had left the patient's home.

"I simply couldn't believe that I have been suspended over this. I knew I hadn't done anything wrong. All I am trying to do is help my patients, many of whom want me to pray for them," she said.

Mrs Petrie, 45, is a community nurse employed by North Somerset Primary Care Trust to carry out home visits to sick and elderly patients.

The incident which led to her suspension took place at the home of a woman patient in Winscombe, North Somerset.

"It was around lunchtime and I had spent about 20 to 25 minutes with her. I had applied dressings to her legs and shortly before I left I said to her: 'Would you like me to pray for you?'.

"She said 'No, thank you.' And I said: 'OK.' I only offered to pray for her because I was concerned about her welfare and wanted her to get better."

However, after the incident on December 15, she was contacted by the trust and asked to explain her actions.

The woman patient, who is believed to be in her late 70s, is understood to have complained to the trust.

Mrs Petrie will not disclose the woman's name or reveal the precise nature of her ailment because it would breach patient confidentiality.

Mrs Petrie, who lives in Weston-super-Mare, North Somerset, said she was initially confronted the next day by a nursing sister who said the patient had been taken aback by her question about prayer.

"I said: 'I am sorry. Did I offend or upset her?' The sister said: 'No, no. She was just a bit taken back. You must be aware of your professional code of conduct. I would be careful.'

"But the next day my coordinator left a message on my home phone and I realised this had been taken further."

Mrs Petrie said that she often offers to pray for her patients and that many take her up on it.

She either prays with them or after she has left their home. The nurse has been a committed Christian since she was ten – after her mother died of breast cancer.

Initially, she was Church of England but she switched to the Baptist faith nine years ago. "My faith is very important to me," she said.

Mrs Petrie had previously been reprimanded for an incident in Clevedon last October when she offered to give a small, home-made prayer card to an elderly, male patient, who had happily accepted it.

On this occasion, the patient's carer, who was with him, raised concerns over the incident.

Alison Withers, Mrs Petrie's boss at the time, wrote to her at the end of November saying: "As a nurse you are required to uphold the reputation of your profession.

"Your NMC [Nursing Midwifery Council] code states that 'you must demonstrate a personal and professional commitment to equality and diversity' and 'you must not use your professional status to promote causes that are not related to health'."

In the letter, Mrs Petrie, who qualified as a nurse in 1985, was asked to attend an equality and diversity course and warned: "If there is any further similar incident it may be treated as potential misconduct and the formal disciplinary procedure could be instigated."

Mrs Petrie said: "I stopped handing out prayer cards after that but I found it more and more difficult [not to offer them]. My concern is for the person as a whole, not just their health.

"I was told not to force my faith on anyone but I could respond if patients themselves brought up the subject [of religion]."

It is the second incident – the offer to pray for a patient – that led to the disciplinary action. She was suspended from her part-time job, without pay, on December 17.

She faced an internal disciplinary meeting last Wednesday and expects to learn the outcome this week.

At last week's hour-long meeting, Mrs Petrie says she was told the patient had said she was not offended by the prayer offer but the woman argued that someone else might have been.

The nurse had her representative from the Royal College of Nursing present Mrs Petrie's husband, Stewart, 48, works as a BT engineer and they have two sons, aged 14 and ten.

The couple attend Milton Baptist Church every Sunday and Mrs Petrie said: "Stuart and I have decided to put God first in our lives."

Mrs Petrie, who has worked for the trust since February last year, has already taken legal advice from the Christian Legal Centre, which seeks to promote religious freedom and, particularly, to protect Christians and Christianity.

The centre, in turn, has instructed Paul Diamond, the leading religious rights barrister. Andrea Williams, the founder and director of the centre, said: "We are backing this case all the way."

A spokesman for North Somerset Primary Care Trust said: "Caroline Petrie has been suspended pending an investigation into the matter.

"She is a bank nurse and she has been told we will not be using her in this capacity until the outcome of our investigation is known.

"We always take any concerns raised by our patients most seriously and conscientiously investigate any matter of this nature brought to our attention.

"We are always keen to be respectful of our patients' views and sensitivity as well as those of our staff."



Nope, I'm sorry, but it seems the 'jobsworths' have got hold of this, plus those who have a real hang up about Christianity.

To be honest, in this insanity of a politically correct society where everyone is looking to tell tales, find fault and fall over sideways in horror, at what others say, I don't think any doctor or nurse should be allowed into any patient's home without another member of staff being with them. It's safer for the patient and for the medical staff too.

If we keep going at this rate, everyone will give up talking to each other completely, unless we've all agreed what subjects are to be discussed, in what way, with what words, and anyone who deviates from the desired plan will be for the chopping block.

1984



Hmmmmm..maybe we need to get rid of hospital chapels, because, after all, they're a bit excluding, and those Bibles by the beds and in hotel rooms, they'll have to go, and absolutely no more inviting the vicar round for a cucumber sandwich, because gawd knows WHAT the neighbours will think! And as for those really, truly, wicked people who gather together to pray for those less fortunate themselves, well! We'll open up The Tower and put them all in there, where they can't cause trouble...

I mean, REALLY! This has been blown up out of all proportion. Lawyers will be brought in, statements taken, police...Loadsa people will make loadsa money out of it, the press will use it to sell papers, the anti-Christians will use to shout out loud in glee and get prayer banned from the universe, especially if it's to a Christian God...

Holy Mother of all that is Holy!

I look after a lady who has TERRIBLE leg problems, she has to have them dressed every single day, bless her (woops, sorry, religion got to me there!) and I've a feeling that Lorna might look at me a bit squiffy if I asked her if she'd like me to pray for her, but she'd simply say, "That's very kind of you Lizzie, but I'd far rather have a cup of coffee, or a little more nattering...and perhaps you could just give me a quick mention tonight."

She'd certainly not pick up the phone and start the wheels turning to get this poor nurse shoved out of her job.

We live in a foooooony ol' world these days. Offence seen and taken at every turn. People being 'accused' of all sorts. Others falling over sideways in distress because someone went "BOO!" and they need to have at least £500,000 to see them through the rest of their lives because of the terrible time they've had...yadda yadda yadda..

Whatever happened to a kind smile and a behind the scenes, inward, rolling of the eyes...then life continuing on as normal?

Bring back kindness. Bring back trust. Bring back tolerance. And let's too stupidity out the window once and for all.

And bloomin' well let people get on with things themselves, without turning the entire planet into a bunch of tell-tale-tits who run screeaming to Room 101, with the next person they want exterminated for upsetting them, because they DARED to deviate from The Plan.

"Would you like me to pray for you?"

"No thanks, but thank you for the kind thought, it's much appreciated, 'cos none of these other b*ggers give a tinker's cuss about me!. Now dear, one lump or two, and do you take milk with your tea?"

---

01 Feb 09 - 04:39 PM (#2554748)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

"And let's too stupidity out the window once and for all."

Eh? :0) Where *did* my brain go on that one...

Not 'too' but 'throw'..


Bless you all.. :0)

---

01 Feb 09 - 04:48 PM (#2554756)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Joybell

If you were vulnerable and sick and elderly -- how might you take an offer of prayer. I'd be thinking -- "I'm going to die! She's done all she can.
or, "I'm trapped here with this woman who is responsible for my care and I have to agree to her terms and God's -- or else!"

I'm a nurse. One of the first rules we were given was that we were not allowed to promote our own belief systems. (Although we looked like nuns in those days we were no longer part of a Holy order).
We were also taught to be very careful about how people read things we said.

I once worked with a colourful doctor. He had a fund of wonderful stories. One went like this:
He was in the home of an elderly lady (He always did house calls) and there was nothing wrong with her. She was just frightened and old and alone. He examined her and stood up gazing out of the window. Where there used to be bushland there were new houses pushed together with no trees. The doctor said, "The cancer is spreading". Then he noticed the lady's face and explained himself.

Everybody's vulnerable when they're sick, or lonely.
Cheers, Joy

---

01 Feb 09 - 04:58 PM (#2554764)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: greg stephens

If the plumber calls, I expect him to mend the water problem. Plus a bit of chat about the weather, or football, or the closure of the Wedhewood factory.If it's a nurse, she will, I hope, change the dressings, help me into or out of bed or whatever is required. Plus a bit of chat about etc etc. I don't really want to hear about their religious prsctises, and I won't tell them about mine.

---

01 Feb 09 - 05:01 PM (#2554767)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Richard Bridge

I'm not so keen on all this "careful" stuff.

If the nurse was wasting time praying in stead of doing her job - one thng. If she was offering to spend her own time - (with or without the patient) - a different thing.

I have a number of clients who adhere to a particular religion, and occasionally send me email circulars that offer me the spiritual benefits of doing some things. Quid me anxius sum? (Mad Magazine for those who do not know). I just file them in the circular filing cabinet, make a ment for the good wishes - and never reveal the fate of the emails.

---

01 Feb 09 - 05:05 PM (#2554773)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: artbrooks

As I read the article (and I really didn't need the entire thing cut, pasted and bold printed for me), someone mentioned the incident to the nurse's supervisor, who then passed it on to "administration". They are the ones, clearly fearful of an accusation against their agency for lack of impartiality, who have taken action against her. It has nothing at all to do with the patient's religious beliefs or (other than her desire to share) with those of the nurse. Administrators, especially medical administrators (and I used to be one) tend to go overboard to avoid controversy.

---

01 Feb 09 - 05:08 PM (#2554777)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver

Wyrdolafr you quoted:-
"Georgiansilver wrote: "Take a look at the threads on here that ask for good thoughts or prayers or whatever".

Without wanting to come across as arguing for the sake of it, but aren't 'good thoughts' and 'prayers' actually two different things? And, with respect to this story, it's an important distinction, surely? 'Good thoughts' is pretty much a neutral thing and independent of religion, whereas 'prayer' is inextricably linked to some kind of religious belief."

The point I was trying to make is "Aren't both acceptable?" Should we not all accept good thoughts AND prayers... why is Christian prayer the one that is criticised?

You also state:-
"Once again it is the Christian belief that is under fire..."

It's nothing to do with that the nurse's choice of religion; the Christianity is coincidental to this. It's about whether what the nurse was doing was appropriate or not. Whether the woman is a nurse or there to administer religious support/guidance. Whether using a 'captive audience' like that was an opportunity to proselytise.

I'd make the same argument if the nurse was a Hindu, Muslim, Discordian, Wiccan, Glycon-worshipper, Kemetic, Scientologist or a believer in the Galactic Federation."


Our local hospital has people going in to spend time with the patients who claim to be able to give healing.... one of them uses stones/crystals as a medium for this...... stones have NO power as they are inert..... scientific fact.... so why is this allowed.... because the people who the stones are used on believe they work!!!!!!!.
Miraculous healings from God are documented..... yes even in the Bible which I personally believe is God inspired........ so you please explain to me why something that science rules out can be allowed where healing from God which is documented isn't..............

---

01 Feb 09 - 05:14 PM (#2554779)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bee-dubya-ell

I'm 99.9% sure that prayer isn't going to do a bit of good, but there is that thin sliver of possibility left over. It's sorta like lottery tickets; the odds of winning are so astronomical that I won't waste money on a ticket, but if somebody gives me one, I'm not going to throw it away.

---

01 Feb 09 - 05:17 PM (#2554782)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Mrr

Good. Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church, comes to mind...

---

01 Feb 09 - 05:44 PM (#2554802)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: gnu

Ummm.... I said it above. Gotta say it again because I have been through this lately.... Megan (and others) said it...

From: Megan L - PM
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:43 PM

Read that post and think about it. It's scarey as hell. And it happens more than you think and on many other levels. Don't poohpooh it... it could very well happen to YOU!

---

01 Feb 09 - 06:43 PM (#2554833)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr

Georgiansilver wrote: The point I was trying to make is "Aren't both acceptable?" Should we not all accept good thoughts AND prayers... why is Christian prayer the one that is criticised?"

Maybe because one is completely neutral and one is couched in a belief system that might be incompatible with someone else's belief system or lack of? I'll accept that they're both essentially well-meaning but I won't accept that they are the same, because they're not. If they are the same, what's the point in prayer in this scenario? Why not just wish someone well or give out good thoughts?

It's also a little disingenuous to aliken a thread about good thoughts, well-wishing and prayers and the situation with the actual story in the article. Threads on here are actively soliciting these things, whereas the prayers in the article are unsolicited and, quite literally, uncalled for.


Our local hospital has people going in to spend time with the patients who claim to be able to give healing.... one of them uses stones/crystals as a medium for this...... stones have NO power as they are inert..... scientific fact.... so why is this allowed....

I've absolutely no idea, sorry. You may have me confused for a departmental manager at your hospital. I don't work there and have no idea about the hospital policy!


Miraculous healings from God are documented..... yes even in the Bible which I personally believe is God inspired........ so you please explain to me why something that science rules out can be allowed where healing from God which is documented isn't..............

No offence and again, I have religious beliefs too and I'm interested in Forteana &c., but - as far as I'm aware - the jury is actually still out on religious healing. In my first post on this thread, I acknowledged the power of positive thinking in recovery which is said to be a factor but attributing it to religious miracles and the like is something else entirely.

I know of various cases of scenarios where healing miracles - whether it's 'psychic surgery' or laying on of hands or more commonly prayer - are said to have taken place but the idea of the Bible as proof in this scenario is a tricky one. The idea of proof of God/miracles &c. in a book "inspired" by God creates a theological feedback loop.

---

01 Feb 09 - 06:58 PM (#2554839)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver

The good thing is that healings do happen but the sad thing is that proving it is always another story and unless you witness it first hand of course.. you will be the proverbial 'Doubting Thomas'. What happened to me is true.. believe it or not... I have no reason to lie.. and I have seen many other healings done in Jesus name..... I also cannot prove that God/Jesus/Holy Spirit exist....... but there are millions who do believe..... why?... because they are all misled or hypnotised or worse. I believe what I believe... you have to believe what you believe but I have put a link to my 'healing' so you can at least see what I am claiming.
Best wishes whatever, Mike.

Mikes Healing

---

01 Feb 09 - 07:04 PM (#2554847)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: robomatic

I am mostly on the same page as artbrooks AND Georgiansilver but I want to make this comment on the efficacy of prayer.

I think prayer is effective in the same sense as a placebo- The human mind that prays for another is eased, and the human mind that is prayed for is eased, and there can be positive benefits to both.

BUT, as to objective healing benefits of prayer, there are the odd articles about it, but I think they are bogus. I heard someone on the radio say that it has been a longstanding Anglican tradition to pray for the health of the current monarch, and that statistically speaking English monarchs on average have not been distinguished by abnormally good health despite millions of prayers on a weekly basis for centuries.

Again, I don't hold it against the nurse that she feels a need to pray for her charges, and I like her asking the patients first, but there is a certain risk in doing this, even within the same religion, and I hope she was aware of this going in.

---

01 Feb 09 - 07:09 PM (#2554852)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: McGrath of Harlow

Any one of any religion is more than welcome to pray for me any time.

I just thought I'd put it down on record.

They can pay money into my bank account too.

---

01 Feb 09 - 07:10 PM (#2554854)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Deckman

SHE SHOULD HAVE BEEN FIRED IMMEDIATLY! bob

---

01 Feb 09 - 07:12 PM (#2554857)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jeri

If this were about Christianity or the effectiveness of prayer, it might matter what people had to say about those things.

It's about professionalism and a patient's rights. If you can't try to see the suspension with those things foremost in your mind, you're posting in the wrong thread. This isn't just a religion vs not AGAIN.

---

01 Feb 09 - 07:23 PM (#2554861)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D

Mike... you said:

"Our local hospital has people going in to spend time with the patients who claim to be able to give healing.... one of them uses stones/crystals as a medium for this...... stones have NO power as they are inert..... scientific fact.... so why is this allowed.... because the people who the stones are used on believe they work!!!!!!!."

You miss the point. Hospitals usually allow anyone to minister to any patient who requests it. Patients may always ask for spiritual help, of ANY religion. No one is excluding Christianity.

The point is that this woman did not ASK for it... and the nurse was not authorized to suggest it in her role as nurse.

---

01 Feb 09 - 07:35 PM (#2554873)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: McGrath of Harlow

We don't know all the facts. All we have is some press reports which are open to interpretation in various ways, and inevitably can't tell the whole story.

As so often happens here people find themselves passionately squaring up in a battle about a particular case about which they don't have enough information to be certain about anything.

It would make much more sense to use this story as a jumping off point for discussing issues of principle and practice, maybe drawing on personal experience.

---

01 Feb 09 - 07:47 PM (#2554881)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c

The nurse had previously been told not to bring her religion into her working day. She disobeyed that order. What are her superiors to do? Allow her to continue with her behaviour?

She says that she found it more and more difficult not to offer the prayer cards. Why? That would seem to be a failing on her part and maybe a reason why she should not be doing this sort of work. Suppose that it was someone who smoked and made that excuse for having a crafty one in someone else's house? I doubt that anyone here would accept that as a good reason.

Whatever she did, it obviously made this elderly patient feel uncomfortable enough that she felt the need to comment/complain about it. That, to my mind, is sufficient reason for action to be taken. The main reason why this is such a big event is that it involves religion. Take that out of the equation and this would just be someone not abiding by the rules of her employment.

---

01 Feb 09 - 08:29 PM (#2554894)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere

My sympathies to the nurse in question. You could argue that she should have waited to be invited to pray, that she had to follow an anal code of conduct etc., etc., ......
.
.. or you could argue that she was trying to be kind, trying to offer something she believed worthwhile and beneficial and was quite ready to desist when the patient said 'no'. She didn't sound to me like she was forcing anything on anyone.

Wait for the day when a waiter is sacked for recommending the peanut-ice cream without realizing the customer suffers from a peanut allergy. The customer could make a big deal of it, act all offended (!) that the possibility of their having a peanut allergy was taken into consideration, somehow, by being asked about without being asked about it so nobody would get offended... give me a break! Or they could simply say, 'no thanks' and leave it at that.


Last year my wife and I lost a child. When I went to collect her at the hospital, the taxi driver asked 'where to?' and I said 'maternity' (which was correct). "Oh! Congratulations! A girl or a boy?" he asked......

Now I could have got all offended at his lack of forethought and tact and reported him to the taxi base, messing up his life while hardly enriching my own either. Then the taxi base would probably have brought in 'new guidelines' informing staff / drivers not to ask any 'personal' questions of customers, thereby forever more ruling out any social chit chat and turing them into driving automatons like in Total Recall.

But I realized he was pleased for me, not realizing the whole story, and was just trying to be nice / friendly. So instead I just said "well, it's early days yet, and she's just had some tests" (which was more-or-less true) thereby saving him any embarrassment for asking an awkward question (it would have been unrealistic to lie outright and say we had a baby, as I would probably have been unable to fake sufficient joy at that moment). So that was that and he went on, none the wiser. That has always been my policy.

What would it have accomplished to put him on the spot and make him feel awkward? Would it have made my pain any less? I don't think so, probably the opposite. To me it seems there is something deeply uncharitable in the PC world, a readiness to take offence even when none is intended. A world where the spirit of genuine charity is replaced by hundreds of itsy-bitsy laws. Ok, I'm not saying PC hasn't helped erased some unworthy behaviour, such as racist terms etc., but it should have quit while it was ahead. Harsh? I just think it goes too far sometimes.

---

01 Feb 09 - 09:23 PM (#2554916)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: CarolC

Christianity hardly gets singled out for criticism. Had she been a Wiccan, and offered to practice some white magic for the patient, I suspect she would have been fired rather than suspended.

---

01 Feb 09 - 09:27 PM (#2554919)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere

Had she been a Wiccan, and I the patient, I would just have smiled and said 'no thank you' and left it at that. She might have decided to do some kind of Wiccan ceremony for me anyway in private, what I don't know won't hurt me, and I in turn might have gone away and said a prayer for her. There would be no call for me to denounce her to the Elders and have her burned at the stake.

---

01 Feb 09 - 09:47 PM (#2554929)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Riginslinger

Still, you'd think nurses would be looking to science to solve problems, and not to superstition.

---

01 Feb 09 - 09:49 PM (#2554931)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere

True, and I'm sure she didn't neglect to apply all her medical skills as well.

---

01 Feb 09 - 11:10 PM (#2554964)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: CarolC

Had she been a Wiccan and offered to do white magic, and the patient reported it to her bosses (as in the case of the woman who was suspended), she probably would have been fired.

---

02 Feb 09 - 12:11 AM (#2554985)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing

Anyone in the medical and emergency services even a humble first aiders are trained that you NEVER inflict your personal beliefs on your casualty.

Thanks for putting it so well, Megan.

And, for the record, in Susan's defence, I am one of those who do NOT like someone praying for me without asking my permission! I may not feel as strongly about it as I used to, but I still prefer being asked.

---

02 Feb 09 - 02:10 AM (#2555021)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Joybell

Is that what "fired" means? I must have missed the bit about her being reported to Elders to be burned at the stake.

---

02 Feb 09 - 03:21 AM (#2555032)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Micca

what seems to be missed is that if someone "responsible for ones treatment" offers to "pray for you" some older folks could feel worried by this as in "why is this person offering to pray for me?, What do they know (or suspect) about my condition that I am not being told?".
Having just been on the receiving end of a LOT of good thoughts (all very welcome) from many good friends here at Mudcat I think I can say with a certain authority that it is in the source and manner of the offer that mattered to me, from folks I regarded as Friends, I found it acceptable in the manner it was expressed (the format it might take was irrelevent) it is that "thread of Friendship" that was important to me and the part that would work "The Magic".
I also spent time in the hospital and would have been disturbed at a stranger, Christian, offering to "Pray for Me" without knowing my beliefs,(even tho' my hospital admission form says "Pagan" under Religion) I suppose its the apparent arrogance , and implied " My God is better than Your Goddess" that rankles.

---

02 Feb 09 - 03:29 AM (#2555037)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

From Nick:

"To me it seems there is something deeply uncharitable in the PC world, a readiness to take offence even when none is intended. A world where the spirit of genuine charity is replaced by hundreds of itsy-bitsy laws. Ok, I'm not saying PC hasn't helped erased some unworthy behaviour, such as racist terms etc., but it should have quit while it was ahead. Harsh? I just think it goes too far sometimes."


Absolutely agree, Nick. 100%

Some people have gone completely bonkers. It's also been brought on by people wanting to claim loadsa money for being 'mortally insulted' by the most banal goings on. There is a whole 'industry' built up around PC these days.

It's Corporate Thought Control.

It's also become driven by greed, spite, control freaks and narrow-mindedness.

What a way to run society...

God help us all....whoever your God may be, or....may not be.

And hey, next time someone sneezes do NOT say "Bless you!" because hell, you may cause SEVERE offence to that person, and they have to have many months of special treatment and a whole wadge o' money to get over it...if of course they are ever able to.

And God help anyone who says "GOD Bless You!" over a sneeze, because that will probably be a hanging, drawing and quartering offence!

---

02 Feb 09 - 05:31 AM (#2555085)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr

McGrath of Harlow wrote:"We don't know all the facts. All we have is some press reports which are open to interpretation in various ways, and inevitably can't tell the whole story.

As so often happens here people find themselves passionately squaring up in a battle about a particular case about which they don't have enough information to be certain about anything".

Of course this is true. However this is true of practically most things on this board. It's a board that deals with a lot of history (often dating back many hundreds of years), folklore, the origins of songs and traditions that have become fogged in time or old age &c. We don't have all the facts on any of those things. Should the 'above the line' part of the forum get closed down?

Similarly, with the below the line stuff, all the news articles are in a similar position: it's unlikely we'll ever have all the facts. Should that part of the forum get closed down too?

---

02 Feb 09 - 05:40 AM (#2555089)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr

Nickhere wrote: "Wait for the day when a waiter is sacked for recommending the peanut-ice cream without realizing the customer suffers from a peanut allergy.

Nick, no offence, but that's a poor analogy as at least the service of food is part of the waiter's remit as they work in the food and drink industry. The whole point of this story is that the nurse doesn't work in the spiritual welfare industry, she's employed as a medical practitioner.

Also, the crux of the matter in your analogy is whether the waiter had proffered the recommendation or the customer had asked for a recommendation. Too very different things.

---

02 Feb 09 - 05:49 AM (#2555093)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver

Bill. You said..of me....

.>>>>>>You miss the point. Hospitals usually allow anyone to minister to any patient who requests it. Patients may always ask for spiritual help, of ANY religion. No one is excluding Christianity.<<<<<<<
you put the accent on people who REQUEST the help... but the women with the stones/crystals actively approach people and offer their healing practice...... they have access to all the wards.
If this type of intervention can give some people relief then fine... the point I am trying to make is that as a Christian I see it as my duty to offer prayer for ANYONE in any situation who I think might need it. People can always say 'No'....... I am no longer working but in my career I prayed for many people who I came into contact with through my work..... I asked if they wanted me to pray for them..... some said yes.. some said no.... their choice.
At the end of the day.. this nurse was trying to HELP people.... what the heck is wrong with that???????

---

02 Feb 09 - 06:32 AM (#2555109)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L

Facts

1. This did not happen in a hospital

2. The victim is in her late 70's

3. From the information given she is either housebound or mobility resticted since she couldnt attend the surgery for treatment.

I am so glad you are all obviously so hale and hearty that that the idea of someone being made emotionally fragile enough by illness or injury to feel threatened or made anxious by the actions of a visitor to thier house is aparently beyond comprehension.

---

02 Feb 09 - 06:48 AM (#2555112)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: McGrath of Harlow

I'm not suggesting we don't discuss this - just that it makes a lot more sense to talk about stuff we know - our own experiences, and the beliefs we have arrived at about what is the right thing to do in this kind of situation, rather than speculating about a particular incident about which we have very limited knowledge.

For example I find the idea that we should ask permission before praying for someone really strange - I don't mean praying with them or praying over them, just remembering them in our prayers. But it sounds as if some people do think that. It seems clear that there are a nunber of different ideas about what "prayer" is. Where people use the same word but mean something different it gives rise to misunderstandings as we argue past each other, because we don't take those different meanings into account.

---

02 Feb 09 - 06:57 AM (#2555114)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

From wyrdolafr: The whole point of this story is that the nurse doesn't work in the spiritual welfare industry, she's employed as a medical practitioner.


I think that doctors and nurses *are* working in a spiritual welfare industry every single moment of their working lives. The problem is Political Correctness has made it a 'scientific' industry only now. What a bloody loss!

The mind is as important as the body, in some cases even more so, and I seem to recall this nurse saying something about taking the whole person into account, not just 'the medical problem'...and here it is.

"Mrs Petrie said: "I stopped handing out prayer cards after that but I found it more and more difficult [not to offer them]. My concern is for the person as a whole, not just their health."

Having someone show they care, even it's just in saying, "Would you like me to say a prayer with/for you?" or "Would you like me to leave ssome loving words for you?" is often a huge step in the patient sstarting to feel that they are not alone.

I recently told the story in another thread of our local GPs surgery. Many of the women in there, the receptionists, are cold and aloof, but *very* PC. Everything is done 'by the book'. Does it make the patients happy? No. Two of them, on the same day, spoke to me about it, saying how UNhappy it made them. One of those patients was a former nurse. When she DID come across a member of staff who was kind and compassionate, she burst into tears, because it was so unusual that it overwhelmed her.

As a former medical secretary/receptionist myself, I used to hug my patients. Sometimes they cried all over me, so I hugged them harder. Nowadays, I'd get sent before some crazy disciplinary something or other, where Cromwellian Folk would sit in judgement of me, label me a pervert and probably put me in prison, let alone take my job away.

The first time I lost one of my little 'souls' I wept in the arms of the chief radiologist, who held me tight, really tight, until there were no tears left. He was the most lovely man, and it was his caring attitude, more than anything, which set me back on the road to hope and health. He didn't act 'by the book' because in those days, there was NO *book* He simply acted on a very human level, to another of his species who was in deep distress. He went out of his way to help me, in a very sad and complicated situation. He visited me three times in hospital and made sure he was there on the day I was discharged, to go through everything with me again...and I gave him a big hug before I left.

His act of caring is still with me today, decades later.

Today, he'd have lost his job almost instantly. He'd have not offered me the beautiful words he did, of such deep wisdom, nor would he have been able to have set me off on the road to eventually having my son, having made me believe in myself, and given me the *spiritual* courage to go on and to survive.

What he gave me *was* purely spiritual, not medical, even though he knew the diagnosis, made it himself and knew the consequences would be long-term.

Nowadays, faced with the same situation, I'd have been told my baby was dead, then just given cold scientific facts, and left to get on with things myself.

I know, because this is what happened the next time round, when I lost another little soul. This time new 'rules' had come into being, and people were no longer allowed to hug one another without even thinking about it. I left that second hospital feeling lost. I felt cold inside...I felt I wanted to die, I felt that no-one cared, nor understood. In short, it was the most sterile situation I had ever been in, and I was surrounded by people who I found cold, miserable and dispassionate. Oh yes, they did everything 'by the book' but I was left almost without hope.

Luckily, I went home and thought back to Dr. Dubbins. His words were so emblazoned inside me, because he'd told me them about three times, and had got me to repeat them back to him, so that he was certain I knew the way forward, and they came floating back to me, as did his empathy and compassion and his will, his utter determination to see me through it all. So, although I was now living in a different place, far from him, I held his spiritual care deep inside me.

So please, don't give me medicine 'by the book'. Let me take the people who are not afraid to reach out and touch, to feel the pain of others and then do something tactile about it, because so very often, that is when the healing starts, long before the first 'drugs' have been administered.

A touch, or a kind thought, even an offer of prayer, means more to me than a thousand injections, or politically correct forms filled in by some cold, unfeeling 'superior officer' who wants to ensure that all is done in the 'correct manner'

They should b*gger off out of it and leave humans to return to the loving, laughing, caring species that we were once, where we were NOT afraid to reach out and touch each other, nor speak to one another freely and in a loving, caring manner.


In the letter, Mrs Petrie, who qualified as a nurse in 1985, was asked to attend an equality and diversity course and warned: "If there is any further similar incident it may be treated as potential misconduct and the formal disciplinary procedure could be instigated."

Bloody Little Hitlers!

Mrs Petrie said: "I stopped handing out prayer cards after that but I found it more and more difficult [not to offer them]. My concern is for the person as a whole, not just their health.

A caring human being and I bet she's a bloody good nurse too.

"I was told not to force my faith on anyone but I could respond if patients themselves brought up the subject [of religion]."

Thought Police!

It is the second incident – the offer to pray for a patient – that led to the disciplinary action. She was suspended from her part-time job, without pay, on December 17.

Absolutely outrageous!

She faced an internal disciplinary meeting last Wednesday and expects to learn the outcome this week.

See?   And had that nonsense been around when I needed to be held and looked after spiritually, then I may well not have lived to tell the tale, because of the terrible implications involved and which I *only* got through because of one man's compassionate caring of my Spirit.

At last week's hour-long meeting, Mrs Petrie says she was told the patient had said she was not offended by the prayer offer but the woman argued that someone else might have been.

Yes, well, I hope that ol' woman is sitting there feeling really smug!
Daft ol' biddy. I'm sorry but folk who go round stirring up trouble like that do not have my respect. There are far too many of them these days. Seems to me she had nothing better to do.

---

02 Feb 09 - 07:05 AM (#2555118)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: kendall

Define prayer.

In my opinion, prayer is little more than positive energy. Positive energy heals.
Why do humans have to complicate everything?

---

02 Feb 09 - 07:07 AM (#2555119)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Megan, this lady wasn't offended. She hadn't felt threatened.

So tell me, WHY did she then do what she did?

If you want my answer, it's because so many people have been 'brainwashed' to 'inform' on others.

It scares the whatsits out of me to be honest, and it bodes very ill for society, which soon will be almost unable to function because of incidents such as these, where nothing need ever have happened in the first place.

This nurse is being made to feel as if she's some kind of criminal!

WHY?

Because she offered to pray for someone?

Personally, I'm off to pray for the nurse, in the hope that common sense may one day return to this planet so that kind hearted people such as she obviously is aren't looked upon as something to be almost be despised.

---

02 Feb 09 - 07:09 AM (#2555122)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

"In my opinion, prayer is little more than positive energy. Positive energy heals.
Why do humans have to complicate everything?"


Spot on, Kendall!

---

02 Feb 09 - 07:11 AM (#2555124)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: McGrath of Harlow

Now what you wrote about your own experience there Lizzie was interesting. I'd agree with just about everything you said there - if some people wouldn't and wanted to say why, that'd be interesting too, and some point to it.

But speculating about the ins and outs of this newspaper case gets in the way of any genuine discussion. Too many unknowns, and no prospect of getting a clear picture. My guess is that the authorities have put their foot in it, but it's a guess that might be wrong.

---

02 Feb 09 - 07:12 AM (#2555125)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: kendall

Lizzie, I'm too simple to be complicated.

---

02 Feb 09 - 07:16 AM (#2555129)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: bubblyrat

I have always felt that the very ethos of Nursing as a profession,embodied many of the underpinning tenets of the Christian religion in the first place.The very notion of nurses being just cold,unemotional,atheist scientists,devoid utterly of all human love,compassion,and understanding is ,frankly,terrifying.It is,of course,arguable that this particular nurse MAY have been slightly over-enthusiastic and possibly a trifle evangelical,in her methodology in this instance,but it would be cruel,heartless and positively DISRESPECTFUL ( and therefore,politically incorrect)to all Christians of whatever persuasion,to suggest that this particular nurse acted in any way OTHER than out of genuine concern for the happiness and welfare of her patient,who is probably some vindictive old bat with Alzheimers Disease in the first place.It is high time that the PC Cretins who now infest the upper echelons of NHS management started to SUPPORT their staff ,instead of vilifying them for being kind and thoughtful. Talk about a "Storm in a Teacup" !! Can't the NHS management morons find something better to do ??
PS If you're a nurse,and you're reading this, you can pray for me ANY day of the week !!

---

02 Feb 09 - 07:25 AM (#2555137)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jean(eanjay)

The incredible thing about this is that the patient has not made a formal complaint. She mentioned it to the sister who came to see her the following day.

When my mother was dying from cancer she mentioned to both the doctor and the nurse attending her that she would like to claim attendance allowance. They both promised to bring forms to be signed. I kept reminding them. Everybody forgot, my mother died and of course you cannot claim after the death. I didn't bother to make a formal complaint because it just did not seem to be worth the bother. However, I did mention it to the people concerned and said that they should make sure it did not happen again because people need that money, are entitled to that money and don't want hassles when they are dying. That was the end of the matter.

---

02 Feb 09 - 08:05 AM (#2555162)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Rapunzel

In case anyone is interested, here is the Code of Conduct to which all UK nurses & midwives must adhere.

NMC Code of Conduct

I'll make no further comment as I am also bound by this code - and impartiality is a big part of it.

---

02 Feb 09 - 08:12 AM (#2555166)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Backwoodsman

During my long (2 years plus) serious and life-threatening illness, the nicest thing anyone said to me, the most uplifting words I heard, was "I'm praying for you". Even as a (then) non-Christian, I took great heart and comfort from those four simple words, especially when they came from people around the world whom I'd never met (some of them Mudcatters, some of them fellow-folkies, some of them employees of the company I work for).

They didn't ask my permission, they didn't need to. And even though I wasn't at that time a Believer, the simple fact of their faith made a huge difference to me and the way I dealt with my illness.

They changed my life. Thanks to every one of them.

---

02 Feb 09 - 08:29 AM (#2555176)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Will Fly

The facts, as far as we can tell are that the nurse had been told previously that she was not to bring her religious faith into her work. The regulations on behaviour for nurses visiting patients in their homes are fairly strict. Caroline Petrie worked on a contract that included the rule that she should not use her professional status to promote causes that are not related to health. Which was what she did.

The patient may not have complained formally to the Trust, but she certainly mentioned the incident to the next nurse who visited her. Having been told previously that she should not break this rule, Ms. Petrie ignored both the rule (again) and the warning.

In this instance her common sense and professionalism gave way to her religious beliefs. And a good health worker (or medical secretary, Lizzie - my wife, now retired, was a very good medical secretary for over 40 years) is perfectly capable of being efficient, kind, sensitive and caring without bringing religion into the equation. It would have been a similar outcome (suspension) if Ms. Petrie had been offering patients medical opinions on the patients' conditions - it's simply not allowed and you get into trouble if you do it.

It's not a question of "being kind" or the Trust going "over the top" - it's a case of a straightforward rule being broken by a professional who should have known better and who had already been warned about breaking it. So she was suspended pending an enquiry. Not sacked. She may well be reinstated as a bank nurse after the enquiry.

---

02 Feb 09 - 08:41 AM (#2555181)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: VirginiaTam

If someone wants to pray for a patient it can be done without wearing one's faith on the sleeve.
If a carer or nurse (whatever) wants a patient to know that being thought of outside of visits it is ok to say only that. "You are in my thoughts" or "I thought about you the other day."

There is no need to say anymore than that. Openly offering prayer is step over the line. It imposes your faith and invades the patient's privacy on a level beyond mere physical treament.

Tam (a recovering baptist)

---

02 Feb 09 - 08:45 AM (#2555183)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr

Lizzie Cornish wrote: "I think that doctors and nurses *are* working in a spiritual welfare industry every single moment of their working lives.

The mind is as important as the body, in some cases even more so, and I seem to recall this nurse saying something about taking the whole person into account, not just 'the medical problem'...and here it is".

Spiritual welfare or mental well-being? The mind is certainly as important as the body (I made a point about positive thinking with regards to recovery in my very first post on this thread), but the mind isn't necessarily the same thing as the soul. 'Soul' and 'spiritual well-being' has a completely different set of connotations to that of 'mind' and 'mental well-being'.

Do people really confuse the likes of psychiatrists and psychologists with nuns and priests?


"The problem is Political Correctness has made it a 'scientific' industry only now. What a bloody loss!"

To be honest, I find that sentence a little frightening. I'd hope that the practice of medicine was only a scientific industry. Bedside manner and pastoral care &c. maybe good things but they aren't the practice of medicine per se. The two things shouldn't be confused even if you see the pastoral care as complimenting the practice of medicine.

---

02 Feb 09 - 08:50 AM (#2555187)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

She wasn't 'bringing religion into the equation' Will, she was standing there spouting the Bible or making the sign of the cross etc...she simply offered a prayer.

Nurse Caroline Petrie speaks out


As I said, a bloody good nurse!

---

02 Feb 09 - 09:04 AM (#2555204)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

The Spirit often conquers Science, over and again, olafr.

I am living proof of that.

Had my two experiences been the other way round, there would only have been ONE experience, for if I had been treated so 'scientifically' at the beginning, by that second group of people who did things totally 'by the book' I would never have gone on to hold my newborn son in my arms 4 years later, against so many medical odds.

It was that Dr. Dubbins belief in me, which gave me my own self belief.

The Nun can often give life where the Scientist cannot, because she brings Love and Hope into the equation. Mother Theresa of Calcutta was a prime example of that.

When the Spirit is connected up with the Science then you have a far more powerful solution.

Science alone can sometimes kill, because it will not allow Love to enter into its 'equation'.


I would far rather be treated by Nurse Caroline Petrie than by those who do their jobs by the book, treating only the wounds or illnesses of the body, whilst choosing to ignore the wounds and illnesses of the heart.

---

02 Feb 09 - 09:06 AM (#2555205)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

"..she was standing there spouting the Bible.."

Oops, she *wasn't* standing there.......etc :0)

---

02 Feb 09 - 09:29 AM (#2555229)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Will Fly

she simply offered a prayer

Exactly - which she shouldn't have done. I've no doubt she was being kind, caring, efficient, etc. - but she wasn't being sensitive and she was breaking the rules of her job. Here's a comment from another forum on this same news item:

"I was in hospital over Christmas - the hospital was a non-religious institution. During my stay there:

1. A nurse wrote on the whiteboard in my room 'A saviour is born'.
2. Santa Claus stopped by and handed me a little plastic church.
3. I am Jewish."

See what I mean? How on earth would any visiting nurse necessarily know the "wounds and illnesses" of my heart or anyone else's? And how would they know how to ease them? And why should it be prayer that is the appropriate treatment, for example?

Let's turn it round: I would rather be treated by a humourless pedant who was an expert in his or her job - and cured me - than by anyone who wasn't an expert, regardless of their religious persuasion, moral fervour or sunny disposish.

---

02 Feb 09 - 10:47 AM (#2555266)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing

..Nurse Petrie said, "I saw my patients suffering and as I believe in the power of prayer, I began asking them if they wanted me to pray for them.

One thing she must not realise is how important it is that the person being prayed for also believe in the power of prayer. But, that really isn't the issue. She broke a rule and went against the first warning. BY her own admission she does this as s standard thing and that, to me, is a form of proselytising.

Nurses do not have to be this overt with their own beliefs AND can be full of compassion, empathy, and TLC (tender loving care) without ever offending in this or any other non-medical way.

I, too, have benefited greatly from Mudcatters' and others prayers, but they were actively sought by me or on my behalf and they came from people whom I know, love, and care about in return. BIG difference, imo.

When I was in hospital for the new heart valve, none of the nurses did anything like this, and it was in a hospital owned and operated by nuns of the Roman Catholic Church! There was a chaplain on duty and I did ask for her the first night after surgery. When she came in, I told her I was a non-Christian metaphysician and just needed some positive "re-enforcement." The comfort, support, and reassurance she offered me was what got me through a very terrible night. The next night I watched/listened to an in-house tv channel which was ALL affirmations, meditations, and soothing music. I couldn't believe how non-denominational it all was, in fact, how non-religious it was...in a Catholic hospital! It was respectful and wonderful and available to anyone, BUT not pushed in anyway, in fact I only discovered it by flipping through channels.

I am sure if the patient wanted prayers, she would know who to ask for them etc. The nurse needs to learn to not offer unless asked, imo.

---

02 Feb 09 - 10:47 AM (#2555267)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr

Lizzie Cornish wrote: "The Spirit often conquers Science, over and again, olafr. I am living proof of that".

Firstly, I should reiterate the fact that I have religious belief, it's patently not yours - horses for courses and all that :) - so I do at least appreciate some of the things that you and Georgiansilver are saying. Again, I'm also very interested in Forteana and believe that the 'unlikely' and 'impossible' sometimes do happen. Also, despite what you might think, I'm actually a pretty caring and considerate person: I'm not a monster!

I'm just quite careful to as best distinguish between concepts like mind, soul, mental health and spiritual well-being when religion is a factor.


Had my two experiences been the other way round, there would only have been ONE experience, for if I had been treated so 'scientifically' at the beginning, by that second group of people who did things totally 'by the book' I would never have gone on to hold my newborn son in my arms 4 years later, against so many medical odds.

It was that Dr. Dubbins belief in me, which gave me my own self belief.

The Nun can often give life where the Scientist cannot, because she brings Love and Hope into the equation. Mother Theresa of Calcutta was a prime example of that.

When the Spirit is connected up with the Science then you have a far more powerful solution.

I'm not convinced because the power of 'positive thinking' is not the same thing as religiously motivated prayer. I believe positive thinking is a valuable tool in recovery but it's silly to think that the two things are synonymous. This thread is evidence of that. In the right situation religious prayer or motivated thinking might help, however in the wrong situation the same can create exactly the opposite effect if it's not wanted or uncalled for: bad feeling and negativity.

Also, objectively speaking, none of us have any real genuine way of knowing whether religious intervention actually makes a difference in healing. How do we know other than 'faith'? How do we know that the healing wouldn't have happened anyway, even unexpectedly? Unless we have two separate 'time lines' to compare against - one with alleged religious intervention and one without - then we objectively have no way of really knowing. As it stands, it's a mixture of faith and confirmation bias.

Science alone can sometimes kill, because it will not allow Love to enter into its 'equation'.

True. However, for the sake of balance, so can religion alone. Also, there's far, far, far more examples of clinical (in the cold sense of the word) medicine healing people that people being 'loved' or 'prayed' to good health.

---

02 Feb 09 - 11:44 AM (#2555309)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: olddude

I keep my belief system very personal. Much prefer to try and walk the walk instead of talking the talk. Many people Christians and others can - at times - discuss belief systems when it is not invited or not wanted by others. Likewise there are those who simply hate people of faith and will do anything to "get back at them" for their belief system.   You see to me God is much better than anything I can do to change someones heart. I put it in his hands and find no need to convert anyone to anything. They have the power to choose or reject. The free will thing I think is really important. Frankly I would just add him to my prayer list and leave it at that. You see she has the right to pray for someone on her own and doesn't need to bring it to the workplace or anywhere else unless the patient requests.   

Every hospital I have been in, and believe me I have had my share of hospital surgeries and hospital stays. I requested a priest to visit so no one needed to ask me. However, knowing my faith on file with my medical history, if a nurse asked me I would say sure that is wonderful - medical documents already have that on the record. Likewise if someone does not wish, it is probably on their file. No doubt her intention is good, but if it makes someone feel uncomfortable then leave it in Gods hands I guess and do it at home on your own like I would. My take anyway

---

02 Feb 09 - 11:47 AM (#2555312)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie

When someone asks me - and it has happened - if I'd like them to 'pray with me', I say No, thanks. Perhaps because I grew up with 'silent prayer', I don't know.

If someone asks me if I minded that they pray FOR me -which too has happened- I say, Thanks, couldn't hurt!

On the other hand, if I came to know that a nurse or a friend or whoever started out each day with the prayer that they do the best they are capable of for everyone they meet that day, I would be touched and respectful.

I am lways taken aback when someone says, upon narrowly escaping harm in an event where others died, 'The Lord was with me'.

What? The Lord wasn't with anyone else?

---

02 Feb 09 - 12:13 PM (#2555331)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Backwoodsman

"One thing she must not realise is how important it is that the person being prayed for also believe in the power of prayer"

I didn't, Kat. Until I was sick, I thought it was all bollocks, but it was the fact of people praying for me, and the profound effect that that knowledge had on me, that convinced me of that power.

For the love of God (pun intended), why would anyone feel offended, threatened, or otherwise pissed-off just because another human being cared enough about someone who was suffering to ask the God that person believed in to intercede on behalf of the sufferer? As Ebbie says, what possible harm could it do?

It's another 'Mountains and Molehills' politically-correct, tabloid-inflamed, total nonsense.

---

02 Feb 09 - 12:57 PM (#2555365)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Donuel

This is wonderful news for all the people who subscribe this brand of faith.

Without the key element of claiming to be attacked by secular humanists, this brand of Christianity would would have no grist for their mill.

Avenging attacks by the godless hoard, enlivens the spirit and emotion of hate and revenge. Having enimies is crucial for their existence and growth.

---

02 Feb 09 - 01:14 PM (#2555379)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver

Katlaughing..... >>>>>>Nurse Petrie said, "I saw my patients suffering and as I believe in the power of prayer, I began asking them if they wanted me to pray for them.

One thing she must not realise is how important it is that the person being prayed for also believe in the power of prayer. But, that really isn't the issue. She broke a rule and went against the first warning. BY her own admission she does this as s standard thing and that, to me, is a form of proselytising.<<<<<<<<<.
You say... "one thing she must realise is how important it is that the person being prayed for also believes in the power of prayer". I say On the contrary. Both Biblically, during Jesus Ministry and ever since... miracles are performed by God when Christians pray for others who do not necessarily believe in the power of prayer or in Gods existence even. The person receiving the healing does not have to believe.

You also say "By her own admission she does this as a standard thing and that, to me is a form of proselytising"
And I again say to the contrary... she sees it as a Christian duty to offer to pray for anyone who she feels needs prayer and she is not seeking anything other than a miraculous healing....... for which she would claim no Glory if the person was healed.....
Best wishes, Mike.

---

02 Feb 09 - 01:31 PM (#2555404)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr

Georgiansilver wrote: "And I again say to the contrary... she sees it as a Christian duty to offer to pray for anyone who she feels needs prayer"

There lies the rub. It might be her Christian duty, but it's not her nurse's duty. She was there in the capacity of being a nurse, not a well-meaning Christian. She's not employed to do her Christian duty, simple as that.

If she needs some outlet where she needs to express her Christianity doing good deeds, I think she's best either changing jobs or doing some religious-based charity work where combining her personal beliefs and the remit of her job isn't an issue.

---

02 Feb 09 - 01:44 PM (#2555417)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Musket

Regardless of faith, this nurse was employed as a community nurse by the local primary care trust.

As an employee, entering into the patient's house under the invitation surrounding her employment, she has to abide by the equality scheme her employer is obliged to hold.

the rights, wrongs or indifferences are immaterial, she has been trained to know better than to offer to pray for a patient.

This debate was had back in the 1950's. To offer to pray can be seen by a patient as a clinical prognosis, either that the condition is terminal or that prayer is clinically effective.

The NHS can only work to methods where clinical evidence exists. It was grossly irresponsible for the nurse to offer to pray. The fact that this distressed the patient enough to complain says it all.

I used to chair an NHS primary care trust and if it were my trust, I would expect my chief executive to take this very seriously. Whilst the nurse meant well, it had an adverse effect on the patient. This is why there are rules about what you say whilst carrying out your duties.

It is nothing about types of religion. It is about objective carrying out of your duties as per your terms of employment. If religion had a place in medicine, there would be many problems with availability of clinicians. Fortunately, clinicians keep their religion at home and not in the workplace. The number of Muslim doctors in the UK for instance is in the thousands. If religion crept into healthcare, many of these people would feel uncomfortable having close contact with patients of the opposite sex. As religion is kept at home, those discomforts do not apply.

So, a story regarding preventing somebody from praying needs a close look at all the facts and connotations before leaping to conclusions. This nurse did something her employer does not allow, a distressed patient complained and the nurse is being disciplined.

The system works then.

---

02 Feb 09 - 02:08 PM (#2555434)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Penny S.

I read the story this morning, and noted that the patient had not made any complaint. But also that the nurse did not offer where she thought the patient might be of another faith - that worried me. Does she not pray for them, then?
I did feel things had got a bit extreme, but a lot depends on how she asked.

In addition, thanks to Rapunzel for posting the standards code - I need that for a different issue, but one in which the nurse's own views were imposed on someone. Inappropriately.

Penny

---

02 Feb 09 - 02:13 PM (#2555438)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver

wyrdolafr.. your post states:-
>>>>>>Georgiansilver wrote: "And I again say to the contrary... she sees it as a Christian duty to offer to pray for anyone who she feels needs prayer"

There lies the rub. It might be her Christian duty, but it's not her nurse's duty. She was there in the capacity of being a nurse, not a well-meaning Christian. She's not employed to do her Christian duty, simple as that.

If she needs some outlet where she needs to express her Christianity doing good deeds, I think she's best either changing jobs or doing some religious-based charity work where combining her personal beliefs and the remit of her job isn't an issue.

You use the expression "a well meaning Christian" and I agree with you that is what this woman is...... but if she had been a person who believed that everything should be pristine clean and offered to clean the womans toilet... although it was not her duty to do so.... would there have been a problem? If she was someone who believed that good communication is important and offered to write a letter for the woman or made a phone call for her... again not her duty.... would there have been a problem?

Offering to pray for someone is a charitable thing to do and I admire the woman for offering... she can pray for me if I need healing anytime......... I admire anyone with a generous heart whether it is considered from God or other.....
Best wishes, Mike.

---

02 Feb 09 - 02:14 PM (#2555441)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: maire-aine

Tough call here, for me. I somebody wants to pray that I'll be healthy/strong/safe, I'd never turn down that kind of offer. But if they pray that I'll be converted/saved/born again/or otherwise improved-upon, I might not take so well to that. I guess it's all in the delivery.

Maryanne

---

02 Feb 09 - 02:59 PM (#2555464)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

This thread worries me. It worries me because there are those on here who are so pedantic that it takes my breath away. I guess it's the same reason that we are now all so 'controlled' and not allowed to talk to each other in a normal way.

If you are a Muslim, then you're allowed to be a Muslim at ALL times, putting it even above your nationality. Yet, if you are a Christian, you're not even allowed to 'take it to work with you'? I'd presume that if you're Christian, then you are so, 24/7. It's not another 'job' which you do part time, it's simply a part of you, a part of your being. This lady was simply being kind, not aggressive, nor wanting to 'convert' her patient, just a kind person reaching out. And for that she's been put through all that she has?

It worries me the way Christianity, seemingly above all other faiths, has now become the one faith that people feel free to abuse and ridicule. I think that's wrong. Maybe the poor nurse *asked* her patient, because she's almost become paranoid about putting anyone into her prayers without their express permission.

Sheesh! This world has gone quite barmy.

The WHOLE point of being a nurse is surely to care about people. It's not JUST about science and I can imagine nothing worse than being nursed by a cold, sterile, scientific android, who turns up to clinically change your dressings, and nowt else.

At this rate all vicars/chaplains will have to be banned from hospitals in case patients of other religions take offence that they're in there in the first place.

I mean..come ON folks.

Gawd, thank heavens I come from a time where I can still recall people being allowed to say things easily to one another, to reach out and be kind to one another, and they didn't have their heads put on the block for it.

---

02 Feb 09 - 03:04 PM (#2555470)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr

Georgiansilver wrote: "You use the expression "a well meaning Christian" and I agree with you that is what this woman is...... but if she had been a person who believed that everything should be pristine clean and offered to clean the womans toilet... although it was not her duty to do so.... would there have been a problem? If she was someone who believed that good communication is important and offered to write a letter for the woman or made a phone call for her... again not her duty.... would there have been a problem?"

My honest opinion is that she shouldn't clean the toilet and unless it was medically-related matter (as in ringing the hospital &c), or if the person was physically able to use the phone, then she should not make the phone call either. The reason being is that if the patient was unable to do this kinds of things then, some kind of support/carer network would need to built around the patient. None of that is a nurse's job.

If she, the nurse, believed everything should be "pristine" and didn't think the house was tidy to her personal standards rather than it being some kind of issue regarding (lack of) personal hygiene because of mental or physical illness, then, frankly, that's tough shit. As with her religion, she should really keep her views to herself and not expect other people's lifestyles to on a par with hers. The same could be said about the idea of 'good communication' - she's a nurse - where is she qualified to say what 'good communication' is, other than her own personal belief? Is she a public speaker or expert in adult literacy or something?

Offering to pray for someone is a charitable thing to do and I admire the woman for offering... she can pray for me if I need healing anytime.........

So is knocking on an old person's door to see if they need any shopping. However, you don't do it at 12 o'clock at night - there's a time and there's a place.

I admire anyone with a generous heart whether it is considered from God or other.....

Again, this underlines the difference between 'good thoughts' and 'prayer'. I think everyone wants well-wishing or good thoughts, but when it comes in a religious form, not everyone is comfortable with the 'extra component'. Either because it's not appropriate in a particular environment - and, as bizarre as it may sound to you, not everyone thinks religion is appropriate everywhere - or it might even conflict on a theological level.

---

02 Feb 09 - 03:06 PM (#2555472)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D

Mike/Georginansilver...

"...the women with the stones/crystals actively approach people and offer their healing practice...... they have access to all the wards.
I did not realize this. In my opinion this is not acceptable. I assure you, most hospitals *I* am aware of do not allow such things.

Then you say:
"...as a Christian I see it as my duty to offer prayer for ANYONE in any situation who I think might need it."

followed by:

".. miracles are performed by God when Christians pray for others who do not necessarily believe in the power of prayer or in Gods existence even. The person receiving the healing does not have to believe."

The last one seems to not require the other. I would think that IF prayer is efficacious, it would not need to be offered to possibly uninterested persons. Thus, the nurse could have silently done what she...and you... consider your Christian duties, without upsetting anyone! Then...*IF* a patient indicates their desire to share a prayer session with someone they like & trust, that can easily be arranged, whether a stone/crystal bearer or a religious person of their choosing.

In hospitals I am familar with, there are standard, easily accessed ways to obtain spiritual help and prayer...and I have NO objection to this. The information usually entered in a patient's chart when they are admitted.

---

02 Feb 09 - 03:13 PM (#2555477)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: PoppaGator

Not a tough call for me. I'm with Lizzie and Nickhere on this one, and with Kendall and Mr. Voice-of-Reason himself, Kevin McGrath.

The nurse wasn't proseltyzing; she simply offered to pray, and she did take "no" for an answer.

I suppose that some would make it illegal to even admit that one has religious beliefs; even though my own beliefs are unconventional and complicated, I think it's important to resist that kind of tyranny.

This woman is having her livlihood taken away from here for the most specious of reasons. No one was hurt, no one was even offended; the observation that someone might have been offended seems to have been sufficient reason to discipline the nurse.

"Christianity" has nothing to do with this, and the nurse's membership in a particular (Baptisdt) denomination even less. No one religion has a monopoly on prayer. Jewish people pray too, and I think we all know that Muslims pray longer and louder and more ostantaciously than anyone else. I'll gladly accept anyone's prayers, nomatter how bizarre their belief system might seem to me. Certainly, if any God exists, there's only One ~ and no one could possibly be any better at understanding the silly differences of belief among humans.

When a dozen fundagelicals showed up at my house with chainsaws a couple of months after Katrina, and proceeded to help me cut up and dispose of a ton or so of fallen tree limbs, I didn't hesitate to join in with them at the completion of the job when they wanted to stand in a circle, hold hands, and pray. Not my style nor my usual practice, and I could have said "no" if it was all that important to me to maintain my agnostic cool. But that would not have been very gracious of me, would it have?

---

02 Feb 09 - 03:28 PM (#2555487)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrs.Duck

The fact remains that the nurse broke the code of practice not just on this occasion but previously when she had been handing out prayer cards. It is not acceptable for someone dealing with patients to involve them in their religious or any other beliefs. This has nothing to do with her being Christian or any other faith. A minister visiting a hospital is there as a representative of their faith and we would not expect him/her to offer medical advice.

---

02 Feb 09 - 03:29 PM (#2555491)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c

She disobeyed a direct order from her superiors. THAT is why she has been suspended.

She was aware, after the first instance, that this action was not one that her superiors wanted repeated. Whether or not it is unfair to any particular religious group that is the way it was. She would have the choice of resigning and going to work elsewhere of she did not agree with the stated rules and regulations in her present job. What she does not have the right to do is to go against clearly stated rules. Nor do any of the rest of us.

On the point of whether a little bit of Christian kindness makes her a better, more sympathetic nurse - that is basic poppycock. Are you saying that non Christians, atheists and agnostics aren't capable of compassion and can't do the job as well? That's what it sounds like and that is 'bashing' everyone who isn't a Christian.

---

02 Feb 09 - 03:35 PM (#2555494)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr

Lizzie Cornish wrote: "If you are a Muslim, then you're allowed to be a Muslim at ALL times, putting it even above your nationality. Yet, if you are a Christian, you're not even allowed to 'take it to work with you'? I'd presume that if you're Christian, then you are so, 24/7. It's not another 'job' which you do part time, it's simply a part of you, a part of your being. This lady was simply being kind, not aggressive, nor wanting to 'convert' her patient, just a kind person reaching out. And for that she's been put through all that she has?"

What you're saying doesn't reflect my opinion on this. If you're religious then yes, it's with you all the time, whether you're a Muslim or a Christian. However, someone's religion shouldn't be an issue in non-religious matters. It might be part of them - what makes that person who they are - but it's not always relevant. It's like trying to shoehorn the fact that your most favourite food is cream-cake (to the extent you have it every day) or that you are a John Wayne memorabilia collector into conversations where it's not relevant. Why bring it up?

As I've said a few times on this thread, I have my own religious beliefs but I've not once actually said what they are anywhere on this forum as it's not relevant and no one needs to know as it's my business and no one else's. I don't think my belief is 'better' than anyone else's and I'm certainly not trying to convert anyone, so why go into them? If everyone's views on religion were like this, the world wouldn't be half the mess it is at the moment.

It worries me the way Christianity, seemingly above all other faiths, has now become the one faith that people feel free to abuse and ridicule. I think that's wrong. Maybe the poor nurse *asked* her patient, because she's almost become paranoid about putting anyone into her prayers without their express permission.

Sheesh! This world has gone quite barmy.

I kind of agree with some of this. I think Christianity is often a soft, easy target for criticism. That's one of the issues I have with Dawkins. I think he's quite careful to direct the bulk of his arguments at a demographic that's less likely to take issue with it.

That said, Christianity is the issue here. I'd be making the same argument if the nurse was a Muslim. To be honest, I'd probably be even more concerned if the nurse was a pagan, if only because I've spent all my adult life being very conscious of pagans criticising 'Teh Evil Xtians' for proselyting and 'forcing their beliefs down people's throats'.

The paranoid nurse scenario I don't buy though, because how would anyone know who she prays for? If the NHS is strapped to pay for all kinds of medical machinery, I doubt they're splashing out on mind-reading machines next to nurses' beds!

The WHOLE point of being a nurse is surely to care about people. It's not JUST about science and I can imagine nothing worse than being nursed by a cold, sterile, scientific android, who turns up to clinically change your dressings, and nowt else.

That's not quite true. They are caring for people in a medical framework. I don't think any of the nurses I've ever known were taking theological exams as well as the nursing exams. Again, you seem to be confusing the idea of being a humanitarian with a nice bed side manner with being Christian. It's possible to be to be the former without bring the latter into it.

I'd think of myself as a failure as a human being if I thought that any good deed I'd done was because of some kind of religious expression.

---

02 Feb 09 - 04:10 PM (#2555526)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing

...the fact of people praying for me, and the profound effect that that knowledge had on me, that convinced me of that power

You just made my point for me...you believed in its power.

maire-anne put her finger on why unsolicited prayer bothers me. It is a very personal thing for me and very specific. I do not want anyone, other than myself, deciding what they think is best for me and praying for that. Besides which I don't pray. I meditate and I give thanks, but I don't pray. Like a lot of Native American spiritual beliefs, I give thanks for the chosen outcome and I always qualify it with "this or something better for the highest good of all concerned." See? Specific and, to me, very important.

As Jacqui and others have said, the religion thing really doesn't matter in this case. She broke a rule of employment, for a second time, after being warned. That is what matters.

---

02 Feb 09 - 04:13 PM (#2555527)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: JohnInKansas

I have had three separate instances when "medical practitioners" have "offered" similar "religious services" and I can state without hesitation that in each case their offer was OFFENSIVE to me, by the "innocent" manner in which it was given (i.e their conviction that they were "doing good" when they weren't) and by their ASSumptions about my own belief and need for NON-MEDICAL "assistance."

As I recognize that these were "acts done in ignorance" I declined (I think politely) their offers. In two of the cases my indication of disinterest resulted only in a "reluctant and disdainful" agreement to cease, which probably I should have reported but didn't.

In a separate incident, while being prepared for cardiac surgery and after initial administration of pre-anesthetic, the anesthetist appeared, as is usual. The purpose of such a pre-op visit is to inform the patient about the procedures to be used, any risks attendant, and to assure informed consent of the patient.

Instead of discussion of the pending surgery, this person decided that I needed a moral lecture about my dissolute life-style, something he ASSumed without foundation, and which - at any rate - was none of his business since I had three other qualified practitioners to advise me on the subjects he wanted to preach to me.

When I interupted his "well intenioned" sermon to ask "How does this relate to the surgery that is about to be done" he got mad and left.

That made me feel really confident about having him participate in what was fairly high-risk surgery, but at that point there was little I could do about it.

While I'm quite certain that in his own feeble (note: sarcasm) mind he was sure that he had fulfilled the intent of the customary pre-op meeting, I felt his conduct did not include the intended consultation and was unprofessional enough that I made written reports of his conduct to my own two principal doctors with interest in the procedure, with the request that I not ever be attended by this person in the future. I did not report his conduct to the hospital, although I probably should have.

While I can be moderately forgiving of persons who "project their beliefs" in addition to performing their professional obligations, I have found that such persons invariable do inject "unprofessional" aspects into the overal handling of the patient. I also have found, irrefutably, that persons who feel compelled to "express their belief" are TOTALLY IGNORANT of how offensive they are, unnecessarily, to their VICTIMS.

In the case under discussion, the old lady's assertion that "she wasn't offended but others might be" means that she WAS VERY MUCH OFFENDED but she's a sweet old lady who didn't want to cause trouble, just as the common "I've got lots of friends who are ****" is a SURE AND CERTAIN INDICATION of poorly concealed bigotry.

Only those with full knowledge of what actually happened - and with knowledge of the persons involved - are qualified to render judgement in this case, as to whether an offense occured or as to the appropriateness of the punishment; but I have no problems with believing that the nurse quite likely exceeded the boundaries of professional conduct, based on what is included in the reports.

John

---

02 Feb 09 - 04:21 PM (#2555533)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Nooooooo....

This isn't about religion as such. This is about KINDNESS!

She only meant it as kindness, NOTHING else! She wasn't 'trying to force her beliefs down the patient's throat'...and it stuns me, and worries the absolute beejayzus out of me that some folks can't see this.

I'm not *supposed* to help people up the steps into er...a certain shop where I work, nor even help push their wheelchairs up the ramp. I *am* allowed to put it down for them...but after that, that's where it stops. Why?   In case the er...shop where I work gets sued by the people who may fall up/down sideways over/off or under the steps, or tumble out of their wheelchairs, I presume.

Well, b*gger that for a game of soldiers!

I am sooooo not going to stand there and watch someone struggling, purely because that's what my 'job description' tells me to do. Hell, I even decorated the consulting room and treatment room for my doctors, years back, whilst they were away. I did it to surprise them...and to keep busy. They were very pleased, it saved them a small fortune. Was it in my job description? Nope!

If my little ol' ladies in lavender ask me to move their television, or make them a cuppa, or pick their knickers up off the floor ( ;0) )do I say "I'm sorry, that's not what I'm 'ere for Missus!" and walk out with my head pointing snottily towards the ceiling? No, I say "Yeah, no worries!" and just do it.

I totally, utterly and categorically refuse to ever give in to 'them' and become not only an android, but one who snitches on the humans!

GRRRR!


Your go olafr .... :0)

---

02 Feb 09 - 04:23 PM (#2555534)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

We all need to break far more 'rules'

:0)

---

02 Feb 09 - 04:26 PM (#2555538)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

"In the case under discussion, the old lady's assertion that "she wasn't offended but others might be" means that she WAS VERY MUCH OFFENDED but she's a sweet old lady who didn't want to cause trouble,"

Pah!

Absolute poppycock!

---

02 Feb 09 - 04:30 PM (#2555542)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver

Lizzie.... I have enjoyed seeing your responses and admire your understanding. You at least have a grip on what actually happened here... others seem to want to make it something else.   
Best wishes, Mike.

---

02 Feb 09 - 04:45 PM (#2555548)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: olddude

personally I cherish prayers said for me in or out of the hospital. What really angers me in a hospital is

JELLO

I get violent now that should be cause for dismissal

---

02 Feb 09 - 04:51 PM (#2555552)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: JohnInKansas

She only meant it as kindness, NOTHING else!

Kindness might include a bullet in the head for a horse with a broken leg, but there are medically and professionally appropriate kindnesses that are frequently available and that might be better used in appropriate cases. I expect my horse to be appropriately and professionally treated without regard to STUPIDLY OFFERED "kindnesses" that have NO BASIS in the needs of the horse (or his faith and moral convictions).

Such "kindnesses" are for the benefit of the one "offering" them, and completely disregard the needs of the patient, unless and until they are requested by the patient. On request, an appropriate faith healer (counselor) should be called in, and a professional medical provider should NOT be tasked with such counsel and should not offer unsolicited shamanism.

(My favored shaman does not practice your faith - I'd bet on it.)

John

---

02 Feb 09 - 05:06 PM (#2555562)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere

For those who want their pound of flesh, the nurse broke the rules and should pay, no argument there. But it seems this is about more than breaking rules, it's about whether the rules are justified or if they are more of a problem than that which they prevent. Afterall, do we sit back happily when a grandma is sent to jail for not paying her TV licence? "Got what was coming to her, the old wagon!" Seems a bit harsh to me, even if she broke the law.

Why should anyone be precluded from offering a prayer? Why should anyone be so easily offended or angry at that? There was no suggestion of conversion here. If you don't believe in God or prayer, then you can afford a wry smile at the poor simpleton's credulity and say 'no, but thanks all the same'. The only reason to be afraid of prayer is if you suspect it might have some actual effect (though why anyone would struggle against being cured - even by prayer - is beyond me, unless they wanted to die for some reason unknown).

If you're so easily offended by other people's expression of their religion, why is that? I am a Christian, but when I have visited synagogues in the past I have worn the skull cap, because Jews who worship there wear it, and I want to show a sign of respect to their beliefs. I'm not worried that I'll suddenly stop being a Christian just because I am wearing a skullcap! In my experience neither Jews nor Christians nor Muslims are easily offended by expressions of each other's faith (unless we're talking about the world's flash points - but they got to be that way for many reasons of which religion is only a small part). It tends more to be people who are anti-religion as a whole who prefer not to see signs of it about (fair enough all the same, just let's not say it's to avoid conflict between the world's main religions).

Modern medicine is based heavily on medical science - surgery and drugs are anyway, and similar aspects. But anyone keeping up to date with developments in medicine will know there has been an 'East-ward' shift in medical thinking that views the curative process as more than simply a 'scientific' series of pills and surgical interventions. There is now a more holistic approach which realizes that a patient's general motivation is important, much more emphasis is placed on bedside manner, more attention is paid to making the hospital a pleasant environment with attention to ergonomics and design / colour etc., I have relatives with a lot of experience in the field of occupational therapy, where patients (for example) did painting etc. in order to speed their recovery. There is also a bigger emphasis on prevention whereas previously it was assumed that we could live as we liked and science would fix us when things went wrong, much as take a car for a 'tune up'.

Once again, I repeat, the best way seems to me to be a polite "no thank you" and move on.


Someone back a bit presented the old lady as 'the VICTIM [my emphasis] was in her 70s' - that bit made me giggle! The 'victim' of a prayer! Oh dear! I can imagine the headlines -

- The victim, in her 70s, was still in a shocked condition late last night after being admitted to hospital. She told police that the attacker had forced her way to her bedside where she offered to pray for the victim in no uncertain terms. "I was lucky to escape" she explained. She alerted one of the other nurses, who quickly raised the alarm. The perpetrator was quickly apprehended and a file is being prepared for the DPP. "I was lucky" continued the old lady, "but imagine if it had been someone else! I hate to think what might have happened!" The police say they have a suspect in custody and are making no further enquiries. "We are confident that we have apprehended the main suspect and that the matter is closed and will be speedily brought to trial" No date has been set for the trial, but a set of stocks have been dusted off and are being prepared in the village green. "We're expecting a brisk trade in old cabbages and rotten tomatoes" one greengrocer stated, while another added "I can hardly wait. I had several hundredweight of bad eggs to offload and I was wondering what to do with them"

I wonder if the day is far off?

---

02 Feb 09 - 05:06 PM (#2555563)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Donuel

When I was hospitalized for surgury I was asked what religion I belonged to. I thought the wording was telling. I asked why they needed to know. The nurse said that in case of a worst case scenario a preist or rabbi would be provided for me.

I had them type on the wrist band Secular Humanist.

My mother said that until she saw the bracelet, she had no idea I was a practicing humanist.

---

02 Feb 09 - 05:07 PM (#2555564)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: olddude

I am delighted you have a shaman and have your faith
but an act of kindness that the patient says did not offend them should not be cause for dismissal ...

heck for my 6th back operation, I will welcome the shaman along with my priest. any help I can get ya know. We have become way to politically motivated with the loss of all common sense. A simple no thank you I am not interested should have been enough. I don't know about other countries but we sure can use good health care professional here regardless of their belief system

---

02 Feb 09 - 05:09 PM (#2555569)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere

I suppose this ruling would also mean I should never offer my seat on the bus to a pregnant woman again (unsolicited chauvanism, forcing my patriarchal and paternalistic world-view down someone's throat)

---

02 Feb 09 - 05:19 PM (#2555577)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: olddude

Nick
you are so right, and in the US we wonder why people get so close off and don't react when they see a crime or help another in need. It is because of the price you pay like the nurse.   Don't want to hijack the thread but here is a story.

I had a very distressed student once who called me at home and I quickly figured out she was saying goodbye. I called the police. Yup she took a lot of pills. She got better, married now, 4 kids and thriving

weeks later I am getting my butt kicked from the Dean cause I am not a mental health specialist and should have called the health service first instead of the police ...

needless to say, I simply said that is stupid I am done discussing it and walked out of his office. I could get away with it, I was tenured ya

Heck nothing happened to me. Just the point. You do you best to be kind yet you get it back on you. Me I still think kind is a better way of life regardless of the politics

---

02 Feb 09 - 05:20 PM (#2555580)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: McGrath of Harlow

"One thing she must not realise is how important it is that the person being prayed for also believe in the power of prayer"

That's the kind of thing I had in mind about people having different notions of "prayer". That idea would never even occur to me, in the case of saying a private prayer for someone, as against praying with them or over them or faith healing or whatever.

---

02 Feb 09 - 05:29 PM (#2555591)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere

Katlaughing, I'm curious. Who or what do you give thanks to?

Plus - ". I do not want anyone, other than myself, deciding what they think is best for me and praying for that"

I understand what you're saying, but there are two points to make here -

1) many people decide what they think is best for us, all the time. Politicians make laws in my country about the circumstances in which people may own guns. I may not agree with all their rules, but in general the level of deaths from guns here is low. Doctors also decide what's best for me frequently. Wasn't there a case some time back where everyone was rooting for the State because it insisted on giving blood transfusions to two Jehovah's Witness kids? Where was the 'allowing the parents and kids decide what was best for themselves and not forcing their world-view down their throats' then? Maybe the kids would have followed their parents lead and the parents had different criteria about what was right for them. I don't happen to agree in this particular case, but all I'm trying to say is people often decide what's 'best for us' and it's not always a bad thing.

2) If you object to someone trying to convert you, I quite understand that too. But it needs to be repeated over an over here that the nurse didn't seem to be trying to convert anyone. It was a prayer offered for the patient's physical recovery (as far as I know) - and physical recovery IS part of the nurse's remit. It was not a prayer offered for the patient's conversion or soul (which would be the RELIGIOUS matter).

3) Personally I don't object to anyone trying to convert me. If I have time I'll courteously listen to anyone as long as they're polite and reasonable themselves. If I don't, I'll just say, I can't right now, maybe another time? I know some of you might find this strange or threatening behaviour, but I am not fazed by it. Occasionally Mormons call to my house. I'm not and am unlikely ever to be a Mormon, but I'll listen to what they have to say and offer them a drink and bite to eat if they're hungry. If they want to say a prayer together, that's fine too. Then off they go. If they got aggressive, that would be the end of the welcome, but in my opinion they never do, even when they argue their point with conviction. It's the same with the Hare Krishna's - I won't take their book, because they always expect a 'donation' and I'm not giving them my money, but they can explain their point of view and again I'll listen politely and explain I already have my own beliefs and they do me quite well. If they want, I'll explain mine to them also.

But here once again we've (ok, I'll speak for myself) strayed into religion v. non-religion debate, not exactly my intention. But I suppose the nurse case just underlines a practical example of the tension that lies in the system, that this story is about more than mere rules.

---

02 Feb 09 - 05:33 PM (#2555593)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Rasener

I am not religious, but believe strongly in morality.

When my Dad was in hospital, never to come out again, I sought out the Hospital Chaplain and asked him if he had time, would he be able to go and visit my father. I explained he was Christadelphian and suggested that he maybe didn't offer prayers, but rather sat with him and talked with him, if he wanted too.
He was a very nice person and understood, and he had a calmness that irrespective of religion, gave me a good feeling and I was glad I went to him. I don't know to this day if he ever visited my father, but I trusted him and I am sure he did.

Irrespective of prayer, he had a compassion that I thought was ideal for the situation. I am sure this lady was probably the same. I see no reason for suspending her.

---

02 Feb 09 - 05:44 PM (#2555609)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell

But this is what is happening to Britian which is a Christian country well suppose to be but we the ones that are born here and are Christain we are not allowed to pray in public but anyone else of any other faith is.

that what gets me

---

02 Feb 09 - 06:00 PM (#2555626)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere

Sorry, Kat, I've just realized I may have asked you a rather personal question, my apologies - don't feel obliged to reply to it! I only asked because you mentioned native americans and I once read a book by a guy called John Fire Lame Deer that made a very big impression on me. Anyway, don't feel obliged to reply to that question.

---

02 Feb 09 - 06:11 PM (#2555639)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jean(eanjay)

The nurse was suspended because she broke equality and diversity rules. Those rules were supposed to improve tolerance which seems to be far from the case here!

---

03 Feb 09 - 06:21 AM (#2555976)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell

but that is these people that believe in Politcal Correctness, don't upset the other faith except Christians I rember when Britian was a christian country not anymore

---

03 Feb 09 - 07:16 AM (#2556005)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe

NICKHERE: "She had to follow an anal code of conduct". Have you read the NMC Code of Conduct? It's there for very good reasons. Without some basic standards of professional conduct any sort of dodgy practice could be undertaken in the name of nursing with absolutely no comeback for patients. Any caring profession needs clear professional standards, if only to prevent a descent into barbarism. It's not rocket science and has bog-all to do with the thought police or "political correctness" (a right wing construct invented by those who really make a meal out of getting offended, by the way!). Nothing "anal" about setting minimum professional standards...

BUBBLYRAT: "The very notion of nurses being just cold, unemotional, atheist scientists, devoid utterly of all human love, compassion,and understanding is ,frankly,terrifying.". Erm... I'm not being funny, but have you ever met a nurse? And since when did evidence-based medicine become such a bogeyman? It's saved millions and millions of lives, you know! I suspect your view of scientists comes from watching Dr Strangelove...
GOATFELL: Why use this issue to have a pop at muslims? Any bleeding excuse, isn't it?

Another anecdote: not "evidence" of anything, but interesting in this context. A friend and ex-colleague of mine (an atheist brought up in a muslim family, for those who worry about such things) was constantly getting evangelical christian literature put in her in-tray by two born again colleagues. She asked them to stop. Next thing she knew she was hauled in by the manager threatening to have her disciplined on the grounds of oppression of expression of religious freedom or some such nonsense. The Christians had complained to management about her mild objections to their antics and the manager was stupid enough to give them the time of day.

So its not all one-way traffic.

As an atheist I would never dream of bringing up my views with those I am paid to provide a social work service to. It simply wouldn't be appropriate and isn't why I'm there. I expect christians, muslims and other medievalists to show the same basic courtesy.

Finally, she's not been sacked. she's being investigated. Probable outcome will be a slap on the wrist and a warning to really, really not do it again. It's actually quite hard to get yourself sacked by the NHS. Too hard, some might say.

And really finally, I wonder who took this story to the press. I'd put a week's wages on it not being the Primary Care Trust...

---

03 Feb 09 - 08:27 AM (#2556065)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Will Fly

Thanks, SC, for that dose of common sense. I deal with Health Professions students at work - Nurses, Midwives, Podiatrists, Physiotherapists, Occ. Therapists, etc. They're a good bunch of people, taught by dedicated and caring, experienced lecturers. And we have a serious ethics education which helps students, researchers and staff to understand all the complex issues which surround the care and treatment of people within the NHS. The nurse in question broke ethical rules on more than one occasion - and people who say that it's petty and doesn't matter may not always be aware of the sensitivities of dealing with patients. Which is why these guidelines and rules exist.

---

03 Feb 09 - 08:47 AM (#2556083)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Backwoodsman

"...the fact of people praying for me, and the profound effect that that knowledge had on me, that convinced me of that power

You just made my point for me...you believed in its power."

Well actually, I didn't Kat! The point I was making (obviously not very well) was that I didn't believe in its power before my illness, and that its effect on me and the way I felt was utterly unexpected, and profound. My decision to become a Christian was made some time later, and was strongly influenced by the unexpected effect that these people's prayers had on my well being. I wasn't a Christian and I didn't believe in the power of prayer until that power was visited on me.

Had I not felt that effect, I certainly would not in any way have been offended, alarmed, stressed or otherwise pissed-off by those who prayed for me, rather the opposite. I would have taken it as an indication of their goodwill, and thanked them for it.

I don't dispute that the nurse in this case broke a rule, I do believe though that it's a shitty rule. A shitty rule invoked by the PC-Loony Brigade, as usual.

---

03 Feb 09 - 08:48 AM (#2556084)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L

Of course from the article we only have the nurses side of what happened we were not there.

---

03 Feb 09 - 09:09 AM (#2556096)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Darowyn

If you don't believe in a divine force, then you must believe that prayer can do no harm.
If you do believe in a Divine force, you must believe that prayer does some good.
Which of these positions could you hold which could possibly lead to being offended?
How do anyone else's prayers impose anything on my heathen philosophy?
The Nurse in question, by the way, is a Bank Nurse (temporary staff), and is not to be employed by that Primary Care Trust in future (Radio interview with an official of the PCT on BBC Radio 4 yesterday).
That is as near to being fired as makes no difference.
Cheers
Dave

---

03 Feb 09 - 09:13 AM (#2556099)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell

britain is/was a christian country I mean if it was islamic country then I would be obeying the islamic rules but I'm not and there is no such thing as an atheist because they pray to God by sying OH GOD if they didn't believe in God why metion his name

---

03 Feb 09 - 09:14 AM (#2556100)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr

Lizzie Cornish wrote:"Nooooooo.... This isn't about religion as such. This is about KINDNESS!

She only meant it as kindness, NOTHING else! She wasn't 'trying to force her beliefs down the patient's throat'...and it stuns me, and worries the absolute beejayzus out of me that some folks can't see this".


This just highlights the fact that you're not grasping an important point here - which is repeated by lumping your examples about decorating and helping people up steps &c in with this particular story. Kindness and good deeds are generally welcomed by everyone - even the most misanthropic of us. However, when that kindness or good deed is couched or framed in specific religious expression - which it was in this case, it wasn't just kindness - it has 'extra' implications; implications that aren't necessarily welcomed. That religious expression can be any religion - it's not about marginalising Christianity per se.

The other things you've listed might appear to be the same but they're not. Each has unique issues around it.

As weird as it might seem to you, some people are happier to struggle with something. I've known people in wheelchairs who genuinely do get aggrieved with people offering to help like that as they think it robs them of what independence they do have. I'm not in a wheelchair but, as someone who has had a chronic stammer through various parts of his life, there's nothing more infuriating than someone 'trying to help' by finishing off my sentences.

Serious question, as much as I hate the litigation culture that we've imported from the U.S., what would happen if you did get sued, Lizzie? Also, what would have happened if you'd had a serious accident whilst you were decorating the consulting room and treatment room? Not a daft question as it's more likely than you think. Or you perhaps if you accidentally damaged some expensive equipment? How would you stand there?

---

03 Feb 09 - 09:15 AM (#2556101)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell

who died and made you God? Spleen Cringe

---

03 Feb 09 - 09:18 AM (#2556103)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr

Nickhere wrote: "For those who want their pound of flesh, the nurse broke the rules and should pay, no argument there.

But it seems this is about more than breaking rules, it's about whether the rules are justified or if they are more of a problem than that which they prevent. Afterall, do we sit back happily when a grandma is sent to jail for not paying her TV licence? "Got what was coming to her, the old wagon!" Seems a bit harsh to me, even if she broke the law".

No, that's a different argument entirely and it's not really what this story is about. Perhaps a suspension and investigation was harsh, but the nurse knew what the rules of conduct were in the first place, and if for whatever reason she didn't - which I'd find hard to believe - she was certainly made aware of it the after her earlier warning.

I'm not sure the analogy with the TV license works either. One example is a woman doing something she had already been told not to do during her employer's time, the other is about an old woman not paying a bill. You might want to try and stifle this with claims of 'political correctness gawn maaad!' but it's not really about what you're claiming.


olddude wrote: "you are so right, and in the US we wonder why people get so close off and don't react when they see a crime or help another in need. It is because of the price you pay like the nurse.   Don't want to hijack the thread but here is a story".

It's not political correctness that stops me getting involved, it's because twice I've had a weapon (a gun and a knife) waved in my face for trying to help - the second time actually by the person I was trying to help.

If I lived in the U.S. I'd be even more worried about the gun issue. It's not about cowardice (if it was, I wouldn't have ever tried to intervene in the first place) just acknowledging the fact I'm not Superman and invulnerable to guns and knives.

---

03 Feb 09 - 09:27 AM (#2556113)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr

Goatfell wrote: "but that is these people that believe in Politcal Correctness, don't upset the other faith except Christians I rember when Britian was a christian country not anymore"

I'd say that it was still culturally Christian, but the amount of bums on seats every Sunday tell another story. Is it a country of practising Christians? I'd hedge a bet that it's not. I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing, just pointing to the reality of the situation.

All religious discrimination is wrong and I do think that Christians are often targeted in one sense (Dawkins et al), but I don't think it's similar to some of the stick that a lot of Muslims and Hindus get - for example - for their beliefs. For every incident of Muslims getting some kind of 'privilige' over Christians, I bet there's more than a dozen cases of them getting flak for their beliefs outside the walls of politically correct offices &c. I wouldn't like to be a Muslim in this country any time that there's an incident of 'Islamic terrorism' somewhere in the world.

Also, the idea of 'Britain being a Christian country' underlines the idea that Christianity is kind of the default belief. No matter how much Christians think they're maligned, at least their beliefs are accepted as being a 'real' religion - a lot of non-Christian beliefs don't even get that courtesy.


"But this is what is happening to Britian which is a Christian country well suppose to be but we the ones that are born here and are Christain we are not allowed to pray in public but anyone else of any other faith is. that what gets me".

This story is set in an old woman's private home - her house - that's not really about Christians not being allowed to pray in public. Also, I don't think I've ever seen anyone of a non-Christian faith praying in public. Where does this happen exactly?

---

03 Feb 09 - 09:46 AM (#2556116)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe

Goatfell:"who died and made you God? Spleen Cringe"

Pithy riposte, Goatfell. Original, too. Hey, if you disagree with me, though, please just say. No need to assume I have any supernatural powers.

By the way, isn't this traditionally a heathen country? Aren't the Christians just johnny-come-latelys chancing their arms with their new-fangled religions?

---

03 Feb 09 - 10:28 AM (#2556136)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Musket

So many people in this thread are saying "if she was of another faith rather than Christian, the management would not have had a go at her."

So easy to slip off the tongue or keyboard, yet so wrong.

One of the main reasons why religion has its place in certain aspects of healthcare and not others is to allow people to work or be cared for without awkward connotations. Yes, you may well feel that you are a muslim or christian or whatever all the time, but clinicians have a duty they all understand as professionals, not to let it interfere with their duty of care.

If they did, then some doctors or nurses would not feel it appropriate to talk to or touch members of the opposite sex, or may not feel it appropriate to give contraceptive or abortion care. Consent of a female patient would only count if it was given by their husband or father in many faiths...

Luckily, clinicians, and I mean doctors, nurses and allied health professionals have a professional duty of care that is not subject to religious view, and the NHS employer, together with the accreditation body that governs their registration (Nursing and Midwifery Council in this case) give the legal right to practice their skills subject to conditions. This nurse was clearly breaking those conditions.

Just out of interest, a staff grade Muslim doctor at a local trust had his hours (and therefore pay) reduced when he kept patients waiting at his Friday clinic as he dropped everything for Friday prayers. This was not acceptable as he was contracted to be working to the end of the clinic.

I know it can seem wrong that a kind offer to pray for a patient can get you in trouble, but nurses are professionals with a code of conduct to work by, and she entered the patient's house as a nurse, not a well wisher.

---

03 Feb 09 - 10:34 AM (#2556145)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrs.Duck

As an atheist who does say 'oh god' sometimes I would like to point out I also use phrases like 'blimey' and 'bugger me' and don't actually require any of these in reality!

---

03 Feb 09 - 10:37 AM (#2556150)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe

Nice post Ian. As an "allied health professional" myself, I'd say you've hit the nail squarely on the head.

---

03 Feb 09 - 10:40 AM (#2556154)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe

Actually, Mrs Duck, I think if I was blinded and buggered every time I cursed, I might end up seeking divine intervention...

---

03 Feb 09 - 10:42 AM (#2556156)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

Haven't read all this thread. But what would disturb me most strongly about a situation such as this "praying for you" lark is IMO there is a potential sub-text of proselytisation.

No knowledge about the case in question, and as it happens I do believe that faith healing, as well as positive vibes or whatever, can be genuinely beneficial. But I do loathe the way some religions go out of their way to make converts of the weak and vulnerable. It's a slippery slope from allowing members of secular professions to dabble in spiritual ministering, to allowing them to proselytise and seek out converts from those dependent upon them.

And what if the situation were a Nurse who also happened to be a Witch, were to offer to do a spell on behalf of a devout Catholic. Probably not a lot of difference in the the possible metaphysical equations.

---

03 Feb 09 - 10:48 AM (#2556158)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell

well Spleen Cringe I disagree with youin that I have never said anything bad about muslims i bet that there are good and bad in everyone but as for you Spleen Cringe and your athiest frinds I'll say a wee pray for you. if people in this country want to prctise their faiths then let them do it and let us Christains do it as well.

---

03 Feb 09 - 11:01 AM (#2556168)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing

Nickhere, no need to apologise. I read the same book.:-)

I give thanks to the Universe/Cosmic/Great Spirit/Mother-Father God of my Heart/whatever one chooses to call "it."

I am picky about the wording of my thanks givings because I believe in the power of words, written, spoken, and thought, and that is one reason why I do NOT want unknown prayers said for me. I believe we can "program" our subconsciousness, just like a computer because it believes anything we put into it, so that it works to manifest whatever we say is Truth. No, I do not believe the power of other folks' prayers can harm me esp. BUT, as it is an intensely personal thing for me, I prefer to keep it private.

The person doing such may have no idea what is best for me or what is needed. Unless I know they are turning their will over to the "Cosmic" by using the thanks for this or something better for the highest good of all concerned I don't want their prayers. I had too many years of ultra-religious family members who *thought* they knew what was best and would tell me they were "praying really hard" for whatever. That right there is wrong, to me. To "pray hard" sets up a negative environment for the subconsciousness to bring about.

So, that's all I am going to say. If I ask, then prayers, good thoughts, etc. are most welcome. If not, no thanks. IMO, the nurse should not have offered unless the patient requested it. In all my years as a nurses' aide and EMT, I never imposed my beliefs on any of my patients and if I'd been told specifically NOT to do by my employer, I sure wouldn't have gone on to do so and I say that as a non-Christian, so it has nothing to do with what religion one might be.

---

03 Feb 09 - 11:01 AM (#2556169)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell

and non of this and goatfell wrote...I just hate it. find someone else to bully

---

03 Feb 09 - 11:06 AM (#2556174)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe

Okay, Goatfell, fair enough. I'm not a petty person, so I'll just apologise for getting you all wrong. I tend to assume that all this "it's christian country, 'you' should follow 'our' rules," palaver is a coded dig at other religions, such as Islam.

And just for the record, I have no problem with people practising their faith. Just not mixing it up with doing their job (unless they're some sort of priest... but at least you can usually see them coming, what with the fancy dress).

If you're going to pray for me, I'll return the favour by thinking a positive rational thought for you. Fair deal?

---

03 Feb 09 - 11:59 AM (#2556233)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D

LOL, Spleen Cringe!

---

03 Feb 09 - 12:05 PM (#2556243)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell

I love all religons I tihnk that they all have great bits and also bad parts as well if some wants to practise their faith good ahead I don't have any problem with that and I do Like Muslims and every other faith so it wasn't a dig at the muslims or anyother faith if they want to worship whoever then that's up to them it just eejits of these faith that I don't like including CHristains you've got to remember a Christian is somtime narrow minded in certain things that they can't see the bigger picture I try and see the bigger picture but I sometimes get it wrong.

---

03 Feb 09 - 12:26 PM (#2556256)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L

Since when has this been a christian country? For it to be a christian country those within it would have to lead a christian life. do comments like "who died and made you God? " and "Gawd, we've lost the plot haven't we.(doesnt it say somewhere Thou shalt not take the Lords name in vane)" "Bloody Little Hitlers!" and calling an older person a "Daft old biddy" actually set a good christian example?

---

03 Feb 09 - 01:00 PM (#2556297)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Big Norman Voice

When you're single and your friends are all married, they encourage you to get married too.
When you are childless, and surrounded by the fecundity of others, they encourage you to join in. 'Have kids, you'll fell fulfilled' [sic]
People who have found religion also suffer from this urge to share. Often whether you wish to do so or not.
A drowning person will clutch at straws they say. They will also clutch at anything else, and if it happens to be you they grab, you may go down with them.
Keep your personal beliefs to yourself!
One person's good news, is another's bad tidings.

---

03 Feb 09 - 01:00 PM (#2556298)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Dan Schatz

This is a long thread and I've only been able to skim much of it. I hesitate to add my two cents into such a contentious area, but here it is anyway. It's long and rambling and I hope it makes some sense. I promise it is written with deep respect for people and beliefs on all sides of this debate.

I am a Unitarian Universalist minister by profession, and a religious humanist in my belief. I have served in congregational, hospital and hospice settings. What I say comes not from my own religious beliefs, but from my professional work as a chaplain in clinical settings, serving people of all faiths.

I don't know whether it was right that the nurse in this case was fired. Since the article relies almost entirely on her statements, it's impossible to know what really happened. She may believe that she was not being overbearing, but the patient's experience may have been very different. Her previous habit of passing out prayer cards is a bit of a red flag, but we just don't know.

If a patient requests prayer, then it is absolutely appropriate for the medical practitioner, if they feel comfortable, to offer one. It is equally appropriate for a practitioner to pray on their own, in private and in their own tradition, for any patient - that is a sign of care and a way of focusing the practitioner's energy on behalf of those she or he serves. The patient need never know - that kind of prayer is personal.

When a practitioner offers prayer or initiates a conversation about their own religion it crosses a line for several reasons. As some have pointed out, some patients are vulnerable, and may not feel comfortable in asking the person who is giving them care to stop talking about a subject which is obviously deeply important to them. As others have said, refusing a request for prayer risks offending the person doing the asking, and that leads to a lack of trust in the medical care received.

But it's more than that. Even chaplains are trained at length to avoid imposing our religion on patients - it is the job of a professional chaplain to meet the patient where they are and journey with them, even if their faith is very different from our own. (In my old hospital, chaplains did not wear religious symbols at work - again, our job was to be open to whatever patients might choose to project on us.) If asked about our own religion, we of course respond - but to initiate such conversations would be to meet our needs and not those of the patients.

True, chaplains may offer prayer, and our very presence initiates a conversation about religion. But a patient can always tell a chaplain to go away. The chaplains, in fact, are the ONLY hospital staff a patient can tell to go away. A patient has no such privileges over the nurses, doctors and other staff who come to see them.

Oddly enough, in hospitals it is often the office of spiritual care that will educate the other staff to be very cautious in bringing up their own religious beliefs. Chaplains receive years of training to be sensitive to the issues surrounding religion in clinical settings, and to practice our profession responsibly. A well-meaning staff person has not received that training, and may inadvertently cross any number of boundaries. (This happens a lot - for example, it is often a problem in neo-natal intensive care units that nurses will baptize the babies without the parents' knowledge or consent. One of our jobs used to be to remove the stray pieces of tracts and religious propaganda that people would leave around the hospital. My favorite was a pamphlet on the urinals in the mens' room that said in bold letters "DO YOU KNOW WHERE YOU'RE GOING?" But I digress.)

Christianity is not being singled out here - as someone pointed out, a Wiccan offering to do a ritual would probably have been disciplined sooner and more harshly. Someone offering to heal with crystals would not be tolerated. But the fact is that very few Wiccans (or Muslims, or Jews, or New-Agers, or Hindus) would make such an offer, because they make no assumption that others are likely to practice religion in the way they do. Christians, used to being in the majority, often assume that either (a) others are at least nominally Christian or (b) even non-Christians appreciate petitionary prayer.

The latter is an especially important part of this. The ritual of petitionary prayer, while not exclusive to Christianity, is much more central to it than in many other religions. The very act of offering a prayer may be seen as imposing a certain set of religious values on a patient.

Spoken prayers are often given in the language of "We," and tends to assume aggreement with its statements. (One example would be Rev. Rick Warren's prayer at the Obama inauguration, which was more sermon than prayer, and ended up with the Lord's Prayer, a specifically Christian formulation.) It takes a good deal of self-awareness and introspection to offer a spoken prayer that does not have some element of "preaching," rather than simply "praying."

The best bedside prayers come out of the context of a visit, and largely reflect the patient's own words and needs. For example, a prayer requesting that God heal a patient may be innapprioate for a patient on hospice, who is coming to terms with not being healed, and whose need is to be at peace with dying. Likewise, such a prayer would be inappropriate for a patient who has a life-changing injury, such as a spinal cord injury. In the Christian tradition, it is often normal to pray for forgiveness from sin - is that appropriate when it's coming from a doctor or nurse - or for that matter, from your chaplain? (The answer is, only if the patient has talked about their need for forgiveness and in no other circumstance.)

A well-meaning person, praying as they would for themselves, might easily stray into any of these difficult areas - areas that might be emotionally and spiritually painful for a patient.

I absolutely agree with those who say that spiritual care is part of healing, and medical care in general. A patient's spiritual frame of mind has a huge impact not only on their direct physical condition, but also on how they will approach self-care. Precisely because it is so important, it needs to be handled sensitively. Again, the question is, "Whose need am I meeting, here?" If the patient has not been talking about religion, then the answer is probably, "My own."

If a medical professional believes that a patient has a real need for spiritual care, but the patient has not expressed such a need, there is an easy way out. The medical professional could politely suggest - and ONLY suggest, not insist - that the patient might want to talk with a chaplain, or a member of the clergy in their own tradition. The staff member could even offer to make a referral - with the patient's permission. But unless the patient has broached the subject, it is potentially harmful to the patient's well-being to have medical staff coming in and offering prayers or other rituals in their own tradition.

I respect that the nurse in this case apparently asked first and accepted "no" for an answer. It would have been better to speak with a chaplain, or simply to keep religion out of it entirely. Without more sides to the story, there simply isn't a way to know if the provider acted correctly in dismissing her or not.

As I said at the outset, this is long and rambling. But I hope it helps provide some perspective.

Dan

---

03 Feb 09 - 01:05 PM (#2556303)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr

goatfell wrote: "and non of this and goatfell wrote...I just hate it. find someone else to bully"

I'd hardly call formatting a response so it was more apparent/immediate which post/poster is being replied to 'bullying'.

The quotes I'm making are your words. I'm not editing them or taking them out of context - they are exactly how you've written them. I've done to this to all my responses on this thread (and on the board too), so it's not as if you're being singled out for my 'bullying' either.

---

03 Feb 09 - 02:33 PM (#2556378)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing

Thank yo, Dan, always good to hear your voice in such matters. You have my respect and gratitude.

One note, people, the nurse was NOT fired. She was suspended pending investigation.

---

03 Feb 09 - 02:57 PM (#2556398)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c

Well put Dan. What Kat said.

---

03 Feb 09 - 03:06 PM (#2556407)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: PoppaGator

Dan ~ excellent and interesting post

Kat ~ "suspended pending investigation," in my view, is tantamount to bieng fired if the suspension is without pay. If they're paying her during the investigation, that's good for her but kind of a bad deal for the taxpayer.

---

03 Feb 09 - 03:25 PM (#2556423)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: beardedbruce

Hmm...

A Moslim has an religious obligation to pray 5 times a day, and there are supposed to be accomadations to working conditions to allow that. Businsses are fined for not allowing that.

A Christian ( of certain sects ) has an religious obligation to tell others about Christ, and can be fired for doing so. Businesses are fined for NOT firing them.


Now I understand.


I have always been asked if I wanted others to pray for me, and I usually said "sure!". I do not care who they are praying to: the idea that that person wanted to spend energy and good-will to the universe to benefit me seemed a good thing.

---

03 Feb 09 - 03:37 PM (#2556432)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Dan Schatz

Whoops - suspended, not fired.

Bruce, I think there's a false dichotomy in that last post. Even in those Christian religions that require proselytizing, it's generally handled in a specific way at a specific time. All Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, are required to go door to door at some point. (The pop-star Prince, for example, met his obligation by driving to one random house in his limousine and knocking on the door.) I don't know of any denomination that requires its members to spread the faith AT WORK.

True, Moslems are required to pray five times a day, and accommodations should be made. That does not mean that a Moslem nurse or doctor has the right to pray in a patient's room when the patient is there, whether the patient wants it or not. Such prayer is generally done privately or with other Moslems. This is not equivalent to praying with (or at) patients.

I think many or most people, when asked if others might pray for them, would likely say yes. But not all. Fewer would say yes when asked if others could pray WITH them, and some may feel very uncomfortable about that.

OK, now I've really said my piece.

Dan

---

03 Feb 09 - 03:45 PM (#2556436)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

No, no, no, no, no.......

We *CANNOT* live in a society where we all have to analyse what comes out of our mouths before we say things, just to meet the bizarre 'rules' of the over pedantic PK brigade!

olafr....If someone needed help, I'd give it. I'm well aware of those who would be highly incensed if I offered to help them when they didn't want it. Good heavens above!! I nursed my father, a gentle, but proud man. I had a terrible stutter as a child, so knew the anger when people finished my sentences for me. That has now gone, but hell, I'll stand there for 30 minutes whilst someone gets out what they want to say, rather than say it for them, unless they want me to.

But this is being totally over the top. ALL she said was something very mild...and WHOOOOOOOOOSH! people have fallen over sideways in absolute horror, accusing her of this and that and everything else!

I get real miffed at being made to appear a right dingbat, purely because I don't do this 'over-analysing' and 'ah, yes but what did she *really* mean?' part.

Megan....

Gawd, is NOT God.

Daft ol' biddies are just that, Daft ol' biddies. It does not mean that ALL older people are classed that way by me. Good Gawd, I'm often a Daft Ol' Biddy meself these days!

I was blessed, yes....****BLESSED**** to have a father who taught me to laugh at myself and at many situations. It has got me through the most extraordinary things in life, some terrible situations. Political Correctness though, has removed humour. It's removed joy. It's removed the naturalness of life.

We can no longer speak freely, unless we stick to the script.
We can no longer do our jobs, unless we sign up to all the rules...

olafr, if I'd fallen off the ladder whilst decorating, I'd have sat in hospital thinking to myself, "You daft ol' biddy! Now look what you've gorn and done!" and smiled through the pain. I'd certainly have not once even entertained the idea of suing my bosses, or the people who made the ladders, or the paintbrushes, the paint or the wobbly carpet.

It just HAPPENS!!

When I left work to have my first child, I didn't even put in for that thingummyjig bit where your employers have to keep your job open and pay you for so many months. Why? Because why the hell should they have to pay out because I've been blessed enough, and made the decision, to have children?

Cor, loveaduck!

WHAT has happened to us all????? It's like we've all been crop sprayed with the Silly Gene, where no-one questions, or dares to break the rules, or stand up and say "This is such a load of bullshit!" Noooooo...everyone walks round pedantically analysing every last bit of everything.."She looked at me funny!" "He said something that really meant THIS!" "They called me a name I don't like!" "I won't ever recover from being offered a prayer!"

Oh, purleeeeeeze!

I worked with many, many patients from the Middle East. Always when leaving they'd smile, hold their hands out to me, then touch their hearts and say "Inshallah"....Blimey! They BLESSED me!!! And they kinda blessed me to their God! Corks! What a thing to do, eh! Hell's bells but I should have taken each of them to court, in this New Way of Thinking!   NOT.

I will NEVER live my life on a straight-laned motorway, only ever going in the same direction as everyone else, without deviating from the route in any way!

I will always turn off the Motorway of Political Correctness, into the country lanes, filled with poppies, and stop off in the villages, talk to the post mistress, visit the pub, smile at the children, tell someone how pretty they look or what a lovely smile they have...I may even hug complete strangers, should the need or the situation arise!

I will never take umbridge at elderly gents who have twinkly eyes and who smile a knowing smile, nor report someone who may be so kind as to ask me to share in a prayer, if I'm ever in the position of being housebound.

I look after my ex-mother-in-law (???) who's 94 and I know that if a nurse had said that to her, she'd have just said "Thank you, ducks, how kind" and left it at that....

Gee Whizz! All this namby pamby behaviour that goes on these days makes my blood fair boil!

Here, one of the new breed of NHS Nurses guaranteed NEVER to break The Rules or offer you a cup of tea or a small prayer to go with it!

Guaranteed never to upset!

Sheesh!

---

03 Feb 09 - 03:51 PM (#2556439)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

Dan Schatz, I'd like to echo others comments regarding the informed depth, insight and sensitivity of your postings on this thread. Mudcat seems to breed a strange dichotomy of yay sayers or nay sayers regarding spiritual matters. Always good to see a genuine, intelligent and balanced post in response to such matters.

---

03 Feb 09 - 04:02 PM (#2556444)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe

Jeez, Lizzie, if you want to here some really 'politically incorrect' stuff and some truly sick humour, try spending a few days with a bunch of nurses. Particularly those skilled and dedicated individuals working at the really sharp end of nursing...

The other thing that occurs to me is that this so-called war on people's freedom of speech, expression and action does not appear to have had the slightest effect on you or the countless other forum contributors, bloggers, letter writers to local papers, pub philosophers and so on who fill acres of public space with complaints about being silenced by the censorious ways of the politically correct.

In that way, you are clearly the perfect argument against yourself ;-)

---

03 Feb 09 - 04:03 PM (#2556446)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: olddude

Lizzie
especially true here in the states anymore

so very true

---

03 Feb 09 - 04:24 PM (#2556465)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wysiwyg

Dan, not only did your post make sense, I'm copying it (if it's OK) to some of our Episcopal clergy-in-training as a discussion piece. What you wrote is a good illustration of why some of our clergy are welcome and sought in hospital ERS where other denominations' clergy, if they have not done CPE, are not. We require CPE, and a lot of non-seminary-trained "ordained" do not.

~S~

---

03 Feb 09 - 04:25 PM (#2556466)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere

Sleepy Rosie, you asked what would happen if a witch wanted to say a prayer for a catholic. I already posted an answer to that but the post was deleted so I must have said something wrong. I'll pare the answer down this time and hopefully you'll see it. This would be my response anyway, others will have to answer for themselves -

In short, I would just tell her politely 'no, but thanks anyway' and leave it at that on the assumption that he / she meant well. I would only get shirty if he / she persisted after I'd made myself clear (not once, but twice or thrice) in that manner. I wouldn't 'report' on him/ her (though if I understood correctly the old lady didn't 'report' on the woman, but mentioned it as a curiosity to whoever else was helping her)

---

03 Feb 09 - 04:29 PM (#2556469)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere

Thanks Kat, I think I get what you mean and I'm inclined to agree with you.

---

03 Feb 09 - 04:39 PM (#2556475)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Joybell

Interesting that I keep seeing such a large proliferation of Red Herrings here -- mostly from the same side. I see the connection. I went to Sunday school. I know about fish and Christianity. We're being shown the miracle of the loaves and red fishes. Such an interesting world.
Cheers, Joy

---

03 Feb 09 - 04:50 PM (#2556486)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

"if you want to here some really 'politically incorrect' stuff and some truly sick humour, try spending a few days with a bunch of nurses. Particularly those skilled and dedicated individuals working at the really sharp end of nursing..."

Hell yes! I could find nothing bad to say about the Nurses I've known. They are the best party animals the good Christian God ever made. The best bunch of real people you'd ever want to meet.

Not a nu-age crystal to be found amongst them as a rule, but some very sick jokes to be sure. And of course an abundance of pragmatic life-saving, earthy human healing love, of the kind that includes cleaning festering sores, washing shitty arses, and pumping stomachs etc.

Most the Nurses I know are earthy, utterly irreligious, materialists. And a few illegal or perhaps 'anarchic' things to boot. Doesn't mean that they are therefore inhumane robots. In fact quite the opposite. At least they don't attribute your sickness to some karmic evil.

---

03 Feb 09 - 04:53 PM (#2556488)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: greg stephens

Interesting how google selects appropriaste ads to display while we browse threads. On offer at the moment are a Muslim singles dating agency, or an over 50's holiday to see the Oberammergau Passion Play. Good choice!

---

03 Feb 09 - 05:41 PM (#2556516)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Dan Schatz

Aw shucks, folks. Sure you can pass it on - it's sort of off the top of my head, but if it's helpful, I'm glad.

The CPE that WYSIWYG refers to is Clinical Pastoral Education. Many denominations in various countries require one unit - a full-time summer or a part-time year - as a prerequisite to ordination. About half the time is spent on patient care in a hospital, prison or nursing home, and the other half on group and individual personal and professional development. It's VERY intense. In the US, accredited professional chaplains are generally required to have at least four units of CPE - an internship plus a year long full-time residency. All that is in addition to a Masters in Divinity and ordination by a denomination.

These issues tend to come up a lot.

Dan

---

03 Feb 09 - 06:27 PM (#2556549)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Joybell

Sleepy Rosie. Awww. That's so good. Thank you from a 64 year-old nurse.
Joy

---

03 Feb 09 - 09:35 PM (#2556675)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing

Dan, I esp. want to thank you for the following:

But the fact is that very few Wiccans (or Muslims, or Jews, or New-Agers, or Hindus) would make such an offer, because they make no assumption that others are likely to practice religion in the way they do. Christians, used to being in the majority, often assume that either (a) others are at least nominally Christian or (b) even non-Christians appreciate petitionary prayer.

Spot on!

I might add, I was very pleased when I told the heart surgeon I wanted to be listening to my visualisation tape as they put me under for the surgery AND wanted it back on for me to wake up to in Recovery. They were very respectful and did just as I'd asked. There was no mention of any kind of religion...just recognition of MY spiritual requests.

But for one nurse, everyone who took care of me was wonderful, too. Dan, there can be exceptions to the rule. I told the "evil" nurse to get out and stay out. I told the rest of them she was not to return to my room and she did not!:->

Nickhere, thanks.

---

04 Feb 09 - 03:49 AM (#2556800)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ruth Archer

Having very recently been through a pretty tough health scare which included some potentially distressing surgery, I just wanted to add my voice to those who are incredibly humbled by and grateful for the standard of care and level of professionalism and emotional support offered by doctors and nurses in the UK.

My local hospital is only small, but they have a first class fast-track breast clinic. From the moment you walk through the door you are treated with dignity and respect, and fully informed about what is going to happen. Over several weeks I had nurses who held my hand, who let me cry on their shoulders, and who gave me the space I needed to deal with what I was going through as I needed to, not as they thought I should. This, I think, is the responsibility of the healthcare professional - the experience should be led by the patient and their emotional needs, not by misguided proselytising. If anyone had offered to pray for me, I would have responded politely I guess, though I would have found it somewhat inappropriate. If anyone had offered to pray WITH me, I would have probably been quite cross, to be honest, because I think it crosses a certain line of professionalism, is intrusive, and potentially exploits one's very real sense of vulnerability in a particularly distressing situation. As Dan very cogently pointed out, 'Again, the question is, "Whose need am I meeting, here?" If the patient has not been talking about religion, then the answer is probably, "My own." '

As someone with no spirituality to speak of, I believe there is a big difference between the pastoral, emotional care and sensitivity required in these circumstances and some notion of looking after a patient's "spiritual" well-being. It is perfectly possible to give the former without over-stepping into the latter. One of the questions on the hospital admission form is what religion you are. I can't help wondering whether nurses on various wards have access to this information, and whether the nurse in question took the answer into account before handing out prayer cards and offering to pray with people.

I should add that several friends and family who are Christian told me throughout me recent experience, "you're in my prayers". Even though they know I'm not a Christian, this was their way of letting me know they were thinking of me - my friend who is a Wiccan also told me she had her altar at the ready! I found this very sweet and kind. Somehow it is quite different (IMHO) from a stranger, a healthcare professional, in a hospital setting, offering to pray for/with you. Okay, I'm not really sure why. But it is. :)

---

04 Feb 09 - 03:54 AM (#2556803)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Jeez, Lizzie, if you want to here some really 'politically incorrect' stuff and some truly sick humour, try spending a few days with a bunch of nurses. Particularly those skilled and dedicated individuals working at the really sharp end of nursing...

SC, I know all about the naughty, outrageous, irrervent and very funny humour of Doctors and Nurses. I worked with them for years, and my best friend was a Nurse too, and no-one has a better sense of humour than she has, she's great!

The other thing that occurs to me is that this so-called war on people's freedom of speech, expression and action does not appear to have had the slightest effect on you or the countless other forum contributors, bloggers, letter writers to local papers, pub philosophers and so on who fill acres of public space with complaints about being silenced by the censorious ways of the politically correct.

In that way, you are clearly the perfect argument against yourself ;-)

Good try, SC...but..er..I've had my freedom of speech removed for infinity and beyond on two messageboards because of those who seek to control what I say, so I disagree wholeheartedly with you there. Sorry. :0)

---

04 Feb 09 - 03:59 AM (#2556809)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Penny S.

There was an experiment done on the effects of prayer on hospital patients, and it was not positive.

Penny

---

04 Feb 09 - 04:29 AM (#2556819)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Musket

If I leave my car with a mechanic, I expect it to be serviced or repaired to the specification I asked. I trust him to do his job.

If I get back and my car has been tuned up for more power, had a bigger exhaust fitted or go fast stripes down the side, steering wheel changed for a different one the mechanic thought suited me better...

I would have the option of shouting a lot, demanding my car be put to the specification I trusted him to bring it to, and then I would find a different mechanic.

Old ladies with leg ulcers needing dressing do not have the option of shouting and finding a different nurse. That is why vulnerable people need protecting. We have professionals who are entrusted to protect vulnerable people, we call them nurses.

That is why she cannot be trusted to carry on working whilst her employer sorts this out.

---

04 Feb 09 - 04:43 AM (#2556832)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ruth Archer

Sorry - having read through the thread again, I had forgotten that the nurse in question was handing out prayer cards/offering to pray in people's homes, not in hospital. In my opinion, this is equally, if not even more, inappropriate. I also agree that this is an employment issue, rather than one about religion: she was told not to do it on a previous occasion, and has carried on regardless. That is why the case is being taken to the lengths it is.

---

04 Feb 09 - 06:23 AM (#2556886)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver

Oh come on!!! This nurse offered to do something for someone... even if it is handing a card out the receiver can say no for no further action! (unlike the incessant spam mail that comes into our homes through the letterbox). She was being altruistic which I guess some people won't want to recognise or will find an alternative explanation for. She did it with goodwill in her heart and not for her own purposes. Nowadays, generosity is regarded with suspicion as we are brainwashed into believing 'There has to be a catch' in everything (and everyone) and no-one is to be trusted.
What law has she broken? is the first question and the second is how would you react if someone you know who is Christian didn't offer to pray for your dying relative?.
I can't even conceive of a rule in any profession which says you cannot hand out offers of prayer either verbally or by card.... what was the rule she broke????
Can I also ask you another question...... which one of you, any one.... didn't pray to God when you were in a tight or rock bottom situation??? Many if not all of you know that you did...... Why did you do it??? Because you needed help and we have an inbuilt instinct to pray to our maker in times of dire need... no-one has to tell us to we just do it!......... Alright so that's my opinion!!!!!!
I will offer to pray for anyone... and I mean anyone who is ill or needs help in any way.. I don't hand cards out but I do it verbally and always will.... I have never yet had someone say no in a nasty or offended way.......

---

04 Feb 09 - 06:30 AM (#2556890)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Will Fly

Just on a point of fact, Georgiansilver, I can put my hand on my heart and say I have never prayed to a "maker" in times of severe stress - and, like many another, I've had such times. I've never prayed because, even as a small child, I've never believed in anything religious. No big deal, just plain fact. Just got through those times.

---

04 Feb 09 - 07:56 AM (#2556938)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Rapunzel

Georgiansilver, this is the code she is said to have broken

NMC Code of Conduct

In particular You must deliver care based on the best available evidence or best practice.

You must demonstrate a personal and professional commitment to equality and diversity

and

You must not abuse your privileged position for your own ends

---

04 Feb 09 - 08:12 AM (#2556951)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Oh, for heaven's sake!

I'm with Mike on this, totally.

Throw these stupid rules away, and give this kind and caring nurse her job back.

By the way, I heard today that teachers and policemen are suspended on full pay, pending investigations.

People have gone nuts. Totally nuts.

---

04 Feb 09 - 08:19 AM (#2556956)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Ralphie

I'm with Ms Archer on this one.
A bit of solace is a good thing. (From nurses, Family, Friends etc)
Offer of a prayer? Well, not for me, but it might be nice if I felt so inclined.
Handing out prayer cards??? (Whatever religion) Huge No-No.
I'm with Darwin on this one.

---

04 Feb 09 - 08:49 AM (#2556974)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver

GUEST Rapunzel. re my post you have stated.>>>>>>>>>>>>>Georgiansilver, this is the code she is said to have broken

NMC Code of Conduct

In particular You must deliver care based on the best available evidence or best practice.

You must demonstrate a personal and professional commitment to equality and diversity

and

You must not abuse your privileged position for your own ends<<<<<<<<<<

Question 1) Is there any evidence to suggest the nurse has not delivered care based on the best available evidence or best practice..... My answer to that is No!! That she did her job at the ladys house is not in question.

Question 2)Is there any evidence to suggest the nurse has not demonstrated a personal and professional commitment to equality and diversity... My answer to that is No!!! I am sure she would offer the same to disabled/ethnic minorities/ anyone at all as well as carrying out her work effectively.

Question 3) Is there any evidence to suggest that the nurse has abused her privileged position for her own ends... My answer to that is a categorical NO!!!!!! (Please read the bit about 'altruism' in my previous post.
Best wishes, Mike.

---

04 Feb 09 - 08:50 AM (#2556977)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ruth Archer

Georgian Silver: no, I did not pray. I do not believe in god.

---

04 Feb 09 - 08:56 AM (#2556985)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ruth Archer

"Question 2)Is there any evidence to suggest the nurse has not demonstrated a personal and professional commitment to equality and diversity... My answer to that is No!!! I am sure she would offer the same to disabled/ethnic minorities/ anyone at all as well as carrying out her work effectively."

My understanding of the commitment to equality and diversity in this instance is to respect the right of others to have a different faith than you, or indeed to have no faith at all. And to respect their right not to have your faith imposed upon them.

---

04 Feb 09 - 09:22 AM (#2557003)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver

Forgive me pointing this out again but no faith was 'imposed' on anyone.. an offer was made. Best wishes, Mike.

---

04 Feb 09 - 10:12 AM (#2557033)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie

I believe that I would rather have prayer cards left - without comment- after a nurse's visit than a verbal offer to pray with/for me.

That would allow me to tell her gently on her next visit that I'd rather that she did not.

---

04 Feb 09 - 10:22 AM (#2557041)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

Forgive me pointing this out again but no faith was 'imposed' on anyone.. an offer was made.

The very offer of a prayer is an imposition of faith, based on the presupposition that the faith of the believer is somehow relevant to others, which, of course, it isn't. Offering to pray for someone is not delivering care based on best available evidence, nor is it demonstrating a personal and professional commitment to equality and diversity. It is, in fact, an abuse of a privileged position for personal ends.

---

04 Feb 09 - 10:38 AM (#2557055)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Backwoodsman

It's crystal-clear to anyone who hasn't got their head stuck up their own arse that some people spend their lives actively seeking to find offence in anything and everything they see or hear.

These dopes need to grow up, get real and get their panties bunched over REAL issues, not this sort of stupid crap. It's playground stuff.

---

04 Feb 09 - 10:43 AM (#2557057)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: The Borchester Echo

Once I woke up in a South German hospital having driven back from a festival in the North feeling more and more ill by the mile. Surrounding my bed were half a dozen nuns who chorused Gott sei Dank as I opened my eyes. I couldn't get out of that fucking hospital quickly enough. I put my total and immediate recovery down to excellent German medical care. Not "prayers".

It irritates me beyond measure that whenever I have to attend hospital (for a hurt finger or something), they want to know what religion I subscribe to. None. None of their business anyway. Just do your jobs and fix the sodding finger. And keep your "prayers" well away from me.

---

04 Feb 09 - 11:16 AM (#2557081)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Wesley S

"get real and get their panties bunched over REAL issues, not this sort of stupid crap. It's playground stuff."

But it IS nice to know that if this is the worst thing that people have to complain about then their life is pretty good.

---

04 Feb 09 - 11:58 AM (#2557116)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell

I rembmer Scotland as known as God's country but then megan L who knows or thinks they do has called me racist so I find that bullying of the worst kind

---

04 Feb 09 - 12:22 PM (#2557143)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Pseudolus at Work

It's baffling to me that this was even an issue. The reactions in this thread were to the story as it was told so for the moment, let's assume that the description of events happened exactly as described. A Prayer was offered, it was declined, end of story. Nothing was forced. If she had offered a sandwich and the person was a vegetarian and declined, would she be accused of forcing her carnivorous views on the patient? Most likely not. If she were offered a glass of milk and was told no because the patient was lactose intolerant, would she have been fired for forcing her dairy position on the patient? Not so much… But as soon as religion enters into the fray, the same offer, without any pressure, just a simple question brings out anger and accusations of forced prayer as if she had held a gun to her head. I understand that on many levels this type of thing makes people feel like their space is being intruded upon but let's not forget that she did not force the issue and the patient herself said in the complaint that it didn't bother her but it might bother other people which is why she complained. If offers like this are vilified to the point of losing one's job then where does it stop? If people have to fear loss of employment then it could diminish offers of help of any kind to the point where we will all be on our own. I heard it said that what if the person doesn't feel like they have the right to say no for fear that they wouldn't get the appropriate care. Has there been any evidence that her care level dropped for those who refused the offer of a prayer?

I am a Christian. If someone is in need, I will pray for them, it is what I do and yes I will offer to pray with someone…it is who I am. But I am constantly told that I need to stop being who I am to appease those that disagree. If someone forced the issue I would agree that they have gone too far but if I make an offer to pray and it is refused, then both the person who I made the offer to and I would have been true to themselves…what is wrong with that?

Frank

---

04 Feb 09 - 12:35 PM (#2557154)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Rasener

Lets get real on this.

A lot of the hospitals in the UK are in disgusting condition and I would be more worried about what I might pick up whilst being in hospital, than somebody offering a prayer.
Who knows she might have wanted to offer a prayer hoping that the patient wouldn't get MRSA or a mistake occurring etc.

I would be more worried if she was offering somebody a drink or food when they were NIL BY MOUTH

---

04 Feb 09 - 12:40 PM (#2557158)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wysiwyg

The "what religion" question at hospital is just to help hospital chaplains know which rooms to stop by (or which church to call if things go badly).

In the US a credentialed visiting clergyperson used to be able to look at the daily census to see if any of his/her folks were in. Now HIPA precludes that courtesy; hooking them up with patients who want a visit falls to floor nurses who MIGHT look at that question on the chart and who might, or might not, make the time to ask social services to make a phone call to the clergy.

Parish members don't always know that this used to work that way, and that it has changed. In an accusatory tone: "I was having an OPERATION!!! Why didn't you come to SEE me!?!?!?"

~S~

---

04 Feb 09 - 01:19 PM (#2557188)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing

Just to keep the facts as we know them straight: she has not lost her job and it was in the elderly woman's home, not in hospital.

As for the food analogies: religion/spirituality issues are more amorphous/intangible and usually much deeper than not liking a certain type of food or unable to tolerate a certain type of food. Granted those allergies are important to know about, but they also are part of the realm of care which a nurse should know about and render. Apples and oranges, really.

---

04 Feb 09 - 01:46 PM (#2557208)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Local news watcher

This story was reported on West Country TV news a couple of days ago.
I missed the first half of the report, which I guess was about 5 mins long.
My impression was that this 'news report' was less than objective,
being subtley biased in favour of the christian viewpoint.
All christian interviewees and local church representatives
were presented in a flattering and uncritical manner
and given full oportunity to present their case
as if it was completly without reproach.
The nurse in question was framed positively as an 'attractive' caring woman
who has been wronged by an overofficious inhumane 'big brother' beaurocracy.
However she somewhat undermined her sypathetic TV showcasing
by appearing to be smug, and unsuccesessfully stifling
a constant smirking expression of superiority.

There, thats my 'objective' report on how this industrial relations dispute
has been reported by 'conservative' local West Country TV news.

---

04 Feb 09 - 01:49 PM (#2557211)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe

Seems to me that the Christians on this board have got their underpants in a twist over the simple request that nurses stick to what they are employed to do - nursing. It's not rocket science, you know.

If I found out that any of the nurses or social workers on my team were using their position of power and authority to feed their religious or political views to any of the vulnerable and severely mentally ill individuals we are employed to care for, they would be in trouble, make no mistake. Their professional codes of conduct are sacrosanct and not open to random negotiation. You take on the job, you get paid for it, you can't then pick and choose which bits of the value base you think should apply to you.

This isn't because I'm some kind of politically correct spoilsport. It's because its the thin end of a very dodgy wedge. If I let Nurse A offer prayers to service users do I then let nurse B sell Socialist Worker? Or canvas votes for the National Front? Or offer an exorcism?

You may say haven't we got something better to deal with, but I would counter that the ethical issues around health and social care provision are pretty damned important to most of us working in the field. If we took the "common sense" approach and ditched them you really wouldn't like the results. Trust me.

---

04 Feb 09 - 01:55 PM (#2557218)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: open mike

i recentlyu went in for a medical procedure and the Dr. asked if he could pray before it. I said o.k. if it made him feel better or if
he thought it would improve the outcome. It took me off guard when
he asked.

---

04 Feb 09 - 01:58 PM (#2557222)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wysiwyg

A reminder to some of my Christian friends. When we accepted Jesus as Lord, we gave up our "rights" in favor of something higher. Our "right" to free speech has been bought, and paid for. Our new "rights" are in the Kingdom, not in the secular world.

~S~

---

04 Feb 09 - 02:14 PM (#2557226)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: The Borchester Echo

I'm not laughing, SP is absolutely right. Just one thing: how to ensure those nuns don't get in my room if I'm unfortunate enough to end up in hospital again.

Actually, I think it's considerably worse that this nurse was peddling her prayers in the woman's home into which she was admitted for some legitimate medical purpose, but which she subsequently abused. It's bad enough when these cranks come ringing the doorbell on a Sunday morning but as long as you are not in this woman's presumably vulnerable state, you can tell them to . . . close the gate after themselves. And in a hospital ward you can at least yell for security (just like on Holby City).

If anyone actuallywants this sort of intervention, it can be arranged - as previously mentioned - through the chaplain, just as the local SWP branch can also be summoned quite easily on request.

---

04 Feb 09 - 02:46 PM (#2557247)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Mrr

Oy vey, WYSIWYG... the real world is the one we live in!

---

04 Feb 09 - 02:47 PM (#2557251)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Local news watcher

here is a short internet report from ITV West news.
It may be using footage edited down from a longer report
broadcast a few days ago.


search "prayer nurse suspended"

http://www.itvlocal.com/west/?player=WST_HomePage_15&void=282844

..and remember this is the subject of an industrial relations dispute..
not a religious witch-hunt.

---

04 Feb 09 - 03:15 PM (#2557270)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Pseudolus at Work

It's not the Christians that have their panties in a bunch, I am reacting to the "she's forcing her views" attacks. Read the reactions again, the anger certainly has not come from me.

I know that the nurse should know the restrictions but I'm talking about a situation where medically she has no restrictions and from a medical standpoint she can have those things but refuses the offer.

I agree Kat that the conversation is Apples and Oranges but that in a way is part of my point. Why does it have to be that way? Yes, feelings go much deeper when it comes to Religion but if I ask you to pray with me or for me or for someone else and you say 'no I don't believe in it', I should not bring it up again. If I do, then we have a problem and I would agree with you. If I don't, then what happened? I offered, you said know, we learned a little bit about each other and for the life of me I can't see why that's a bad thing.

I still say it wasn't forcing her beliefs just because it was in the woman's home.   If we find out that there was more to the story like a repeat of the question or some arm twisting then I totally agree with the complaints, but as it is stated, She asked a question, she respected the answer, end of story. To me, any anger over that is an over reaction.

Frank

---

04 Feb 09 - 03:18 PM (#2557276)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Little Hawk

ARGH!!!! The controversy!

I could get involved in this thread. I could. But I'm not going to. ;-) Try looking at videos of dachshunds if you want a pleasant lift in your mood today.

---

04 Feb 09 - 03:34 PM (#2557293)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr

Lizzie Cornish wrote: But this is being totally over the top. ALL she said was something very mild...and WHOOOOOOOOOSH! people have fallen over sideways in absolute horror, accusing her of this and that and everything else!

Is it "really mild" though? Despite all the analogies made on this thread are you truly objective enough to decide whether this was "really mild"? Can you stand apart from your own beliefs far enough to be genuinely objective over this to decide whether it's a big issue or not?

I get real miffed at being made to appear a right dingbat, purely because I don't do this 'over-analysing' and 'ah, yes but what did she *really* mean?' part.

I'm not aware of anyone making you out to be a 'right dingbat' on this thread. I disagree with you on the topic but I don't think you're a "dingbat" or "daft old biddy" for doing so. We just disagree on this particular subject and we agree on others. I'm not so fickle that I'll get personal over one thing and then 'forget' that I thought you a dingbat or daft old biddy when it comes to something we do agree on.

"olafr, if I'd fallen off the ladder whilst decorating, I'd have sat in hospital thinking to myself, "You daft ol' biddy! Now look what you've gorn and done!" and smiled through the pain. I'd certainly have not once even entertained the idea of suing my bosses, or the people who made the ladders, or the paintbrushes, the paint or the wobbly carpet".

That's not quite what I'm on about, Lizzie. The accident would have had to have been reported in your firm's accidents book - insurance ramifications &c.

---

04 Feb 09 - 03:41 PM (#2557298)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wysiwyg

LH, posting is inevitable. It's Silly Season, when all want to talk and few/none can hear.

~S~

---

04 Feb 09 - 03:47 PM (#2557301)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Little Hawk

Yeah, I know... (grin)

---

04 Feb 09 - 03:55 PM (#2557308)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c

Circular argument - no good trying to add anything.

---

04 Feb 09 - 04:02 PM (#2557313)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing

Thank you, Frank. One important distinction, though, you said:
...if I ask you to pray with me or for me or for someone else and you say 'no I don't believe in it', I should not bring it up again. If I do, then we have a problem and I would agree with you.

The elderly woman in this case did NOT ask her to pray with or for her. If she had, there would be no case. Also, the nurse had already been told by her employer NOT to bring up the subject, again.

---

04 Feb 09 - 04:32 PM (#2557333)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell

so why are we

---

04 Feb 09 - 04:46 PM (#2557343)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Joybell

It's unfair for anyone to give an opinion about what the elderly lady should or should not have done. She is allowed to make a comment (or a complaint -- although it doesn't sound as though it was actually a complaint) and have the matter addressed. Also it's irrelevant, albeit an interesting subject for discussion, whether the rule broken here is fair.

Off to gaze at dachshunds -- or maybe that fawn and kitty-cat film.

Just wondering though. Does God really want or need this kind of help? Had He not noticed He was needed?

Cheers, Joy

---

04 Feb 09 - 04:48 PM (#2557344)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell

true

---

04 Feb 09 - 06:35 PM (#2557413)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe

Problem is, if we ignore it, it just gets stronger....

---

04 Feb 09 - 07:03 PM (#2557432)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Little Hawk

Not at all. If we ignore this thread, we have time for other things. ;-) Possibly better things.

---

04 Feb 09 - 07:18 PM (#2557447)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere

I'm already ignoring it right now. That's why I'm not writing this - you're only imagining it!!
;-))

---

04 Feb 09 - 07:40 PM (#2557467)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: CarolC

Although I have been told (by some Christians) that vegetarianism is satanic.

---

04 Feb 09 - 07:42 PM (#2557468)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: CarolC

LOL Oops. My last post was in response to a point that was made earlier, and I forgot to refresh the thread (having opened it hours ago) before posting.

---

04 Feb 09 - 07:47 PM (#2557474)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: MaineDog

The Bible says that we should pray in our closet, in secret, and then the Lord will rewards us openly. It also suggests that men should not make long repetitive prayers, or for the sake of show, or for the rewards of self-righteous pride. Those who wish to pray for others should consider their own motives and keep these suggestions in mind.

MD

---

04 Feb 09 - 08:36 PM (#2557518)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Little Hawk

I'm all for that, MaineDog, but there's one problem. My closet is so full of junk that I can't even get in there, not to pray, not for anything else either. I have considered praying in secret up on my roof...but the crows gather and caw at me! I have considered praying in secret inside the back of my van. I look up and there's a fly on the window watching me! I went to the bank and said I had to open my safety deposit box, they helped me out with that, I went to the little room, locked the door, got down on my knees...and saw that there was a spider up in the corner of the ceiling watching me! I could clean out my closet, I suppose, so as to make room to pray in the fashion that the Lord has advised...but I just know a cockroach or a mouse will emerge from some crack in the wall at the very moment I begin praying and ruin the whole thing.

It's just not fair. I am going to complain to God about it just as soon as I can arrange to be alone somewhere.

I've changed my mind. This thread has its merits.

---

05 Feb 09 - 02:36 AM (#2557697)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver

MaineDog.... the Bible also says that Christians should pray for others for healing and for the driving out of demons as Jesus and the disciples did. It also says that where two or more are gathered in His name, there will He be.... etc etc. As disciples of Christ, which in essence is what all Christians 'should be' we are called to pray for others....... to follow the example set for us by Jesus himself..... He didn't go into a private room to pray for the blind man or the lame man... or anyone on record although he did pray alone at times which all Christians do... or should.
Best wishes, Mike.

---

05 Feb 09 - 02:54 AM (#2557702)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Barry Finn

Twice I've been on my death bed & they were yrs apart. Both times when asked prior to dying my religon & both times I said none. Both times priests came in & asked if I wanted them to pray with/for me, both times I said no & both times that was it, they left. Both times I thanked them on their way out for their concern & thanked them for respecting my wishes. Had they not, both times they would've been laying next to me on their death beds & neither of us would've been kissing, they wouldn't have been the lucky ones either. They were not the last things I wanted to see in this world when I was dying. Can you imagine, my last view on this earth would be someone religious jerk praying over me, I'd rather be smelling a cesspool & smiling.

Barry

---

05 Feb 09 - 04:02 AM (#2557726)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr

Georgiansilver wrote: "It also says that where two or more are gathered in His name, there will He be.... etc etc".

What Christians do together when they get together is up to them. However, when it's not a gathering of Christians, then it's not really up to them as what they want to do might want to take other people who might be around into consideration. 'The nurse in the woman's house' - which sounds like a parable and perhaps there's a lesson for Christians in it - was not a gathering of Christians.


As disciples of Christ, which in essence is what all Christians 'should be' we are called to pray for others....... to follow the example set for us by Jesus himself..... He didn't go into a private room to pray for the blind man or the lame man... or anyone on record although he did pray alone at times which all Christians do... or should.

Which is it, Georgiansilver? Christians should pray alone or they should pray in public? You don't seem particularly clear on the matter.

Also, how would you know Jesus didn't go to a private room to pray? The very definition of "private room" would mean that no one was there to for anyone to know whether he praying or not.

There's almost a Zen koan in there!

---

05 Feb 09 - 06:10 AM (#2557791)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST

"the driving out of demons"

as a mental health practitioner this is the bit that really worried me!

---

05 Feb 09 - 06:10 AM (#2557792)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe

Me above

---

05 Feb 09 - 07:46 AM (#2557848)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Musket

Wow, we get from the medieval bit about praying being compulsory all the way to hospitals being in a disgusting condition.

1) I am glad somebody has brought up the NMC code of conduct. It does show the sections of her professional obligations she is in breach of, and why it is a problem.

2) Hospitals are all in a disgusting condition? You see, this sweeping statement cannot be based on fact, (I am part of the government body that inspects them for hygiene) so I assume it is based on opinion. No problem with that. For years I thought all southern beer was flat and awful. Till I tried some, and then some more and eventually formed a more rounded opinion. (Not to mention the rounded belly...)

The lady who said throw away the rules then if she is in breach of them... Wow, didn't realise anarchists could write so eloquently. Codes of conduct are reviewed regularly anyway.

The fact remains that this nurse enters people's homes for professional reasons and is trusted to do so. Breaking that trust is very serious. Now... if a patient asked her to pray for her, that is another matter because if she agreed, it would be her call to make a judgement as to whether that was appropriate. But to offer is going beyond her brief and as religion is both addictive and powerful to the mind, then introducing it to a patient / clinician contact is reprehensible.

Like everybody else on this forum, I only know the media stories, but if what I have read was all fact, and the only facts presented, then if I were chairing an NMC hearing, I would have no hesitation in considering suspension of registration and a course of retraining. If I was still chairing an NHS trust, I would feel uncomfortable having this nurse visiting patients on her own.

Views on religion do not come in to it. If you are religious, then you are aware of the power of religion to the mind. If you are agnostic, you are also aware (and possibly find disturbing) the power of religion to the mind.

This is why nurses, who care for vulnerable people, are trained to be aware of the power they have over patients and not to abuse that power. Leaving prayer cards goes against her training and professional obligations.

---

05 Feb 09 - 08:13 AM (#2557873)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

"...in breach of....

It actually seems to show who's a prisoner of a narrow legalistic outlook, and who recognizes that the health care system, government-run or not--(looking at it as an outsider-- this, I gather, was not an NHS situation)--needs as many kind, caring people as possible.

So far, it appears, there is no criticism of the actual quality of her medical attentions.

Just some people who somehow read a threat into her offer to pray.   An offer which, as has been pointed out more than once, was declined--and she then let it rest.

So it is hard to see any harm was done.

And now there are people advocating that this kind, caring individual be prevented from offering any more care.

Evidently since there is such an incredible oversupply of kind, caring people already offering their assistance that this nurse is not needed. It must be nice.




I am certainly glad this did not happen in the US.   If it had, it would have strengthened the "Religious Right" hugely--as did the similarly senseless push to remove 10 Commandments plaques from courthouses. Another situation in which no harm was being done---except to the country when GWB, in great part because of support from the "Religious Right", got in again in 2004.

So then everybody had the joy of GWB for another 4 years. And the whole world suffered.

At least there's no risk of anything like that in the UK.

---

05 Feb 09 - 10:04 AM (#2557962)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

Are there any:

a) health-care professionals, or
b) clergy

onlist here who believe that what this woman did was a good idea?

Because, those postings proffered from trained and experienced members of both *secular health-care* and *spiritual ministering* professions thus far, have agreed that what this nurse did was deeply unprofessional and incorrect for numerous reasons.

As a lay person, with no training or experience in either ministering to the body or to the soul, I'm inclined to defer authority to those who *do*.
Which is possibly one of the reasons I'd be more inclined to go to a Priest than to my local butcher, if I wanted spiritual aid. And to a Nurse rather than a car mechanic, if I wanted a smear test...

---

05 Feb 09 - 10:25 AM (#2557979)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell

i don't think she wrong but she could of done it better maybe at a better time

---

05 Feb 09 - 10:36 AM (#2557989)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: olddude

vegetarianism is satanic

Only if it include JELLO

---

05 Feb 09 - 10:37 AM (#2557992)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing

Nickhere, in case you are interested: another very influential book, for me, is The Metaphysical Bible Dictionary by Charles Fillmore. Excellent book, imo!:-)

---

05 Feb 09 - 10:57 AM (#2558014)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Little Hawk

The passage where Jesus talks about praying in secret (in your closet) obviously has to do with not showboating your piety in an ostentatious manner in public just to impress other people.....it's not an ironclad rule meaning you must always be alone when praying. This should be clear to anyone who pays attention to context while they're reading...but who does that when they are only out to trash something?

"Context? I don't need no steenkin' context! I am not here to think. I am only hear to react and condemn, according to my kneejerk prejudices."

---

05 Feb 09 - 11:10 AM (#2558024)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Little Hawk

Regarding "the driving out of demons"...that was a concept in ancient times which, if translated into present terms, would amount to "clearing out deeply negative thoughts and emotional patterns".

For instance, suppose someone is experiencing paranoid delusions of some kind and he kills some innocent people who are really no threat to him at all and he mutilates their bodies...that sort of thing happens in our world, doesn't it?

Okay, in ancient times it would have been assumed that he was possessed by demons. In our time it would have been assumed that he was mentally ill and possessed by negative thoughts that he couldn't control.

What's the difference if you call it "demons" or you call it "mental illness"? It amounts to the same thing in its effect on the person. The only way you can cure such a person is to remove the negative thought forms that are controlling his actions...and that's usually not easy, is it?

Why make a big deal over people in an ancient time once having called negative thought forms "demons"? They were just putting it in terms that made sense to them in their own time. I expert they would think some of the terms you use now are bloody stupid too if they ever got to hear about them.

---

05 Feb 09 - 11:35 AM (#2558039)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver

wyrdoladfr.... had you read my last post in context .... as a reply to MaineDog, you might well have understood why I made those statements. I suggest you read it through again.
"Where two or more are gathered in his name".. was in answer to Mainedogs statement that Christians should pray alone... I did not suggest it was anything to do with the nurse and her patient.
As for the praying alone or in company... I am totally clear on the matter.. knowing that we do both!...
I did not state that Jesus did not go into a private room to pray.. only not so for the blind and lame man... qualified by saying "he did pray alone at times as all Chistians do .. or should".
Please take the time to read the posts people make and in the context they are written and people won't have to take the time to explain something which may be obvious.
Best wishes, Mike.

---

05 Feb 09 - 11:36 AM (#2558040)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

That "Demon" might actually be neither a demon nor merely a bit of negative thinking. It might be a semi-autonomous personality complex split off from the ego as a consequence of trauma. Integration of such complexes through psychotherapy with a clinical psychologist or treatment with another professional mental health-care giver, might really be the thing needed... Can't be buying this "driving out of Demons business", from what little I've heard of cultures which still indulge in such stuff, it's not always that pleasant. And I can't see how it can be anything other than harmful to an already disturbed mind.

---

05 Feb 09 - 11:54 AM (#2558061)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Little Hawk

"a semi-autonomous personality complex split off from the ego as a consequence of trauma"

Yes, that's another possibility. Or...it's another way of verbally describing the situation.

The point is, the person is mentally disturbed, correct? Now, every society (and every person) will find different ways of responding to that. Some of those ways may be helpful, some may be deeply harmful.

Possible ways of responding to a mentally ill or disturbed person:

1. Talk to the person about it. Counsel them. (probably harmless in most cases)
2. Drug them. (a very popular method in our society...often very harmful)
3. Throw them in an asylum and let them rot. (used to be popular not long ago...very harmful)
4. Beat it out of them. (definitely harmful)
5. Pray for them (Almost certainly harmless. Possibly helpful? Not for me to say, is it? Not for you either.)
6. Kill them. (a quick solution in many past societies)
7. Make up your own method if you can come up with one...

My point is, the mentally ill have often been mistreated in most societies, including our own present one. It is very common for horrors to be perpetrated on mentally ill people whether or not they are said to be "possessed by demons". You can look up an example of horror in the one case, I can look up an example of horror in the other case. So what? It proves nothing final about the matter one way or another...it's just one more example of horror in a world that has always seen a great many horrors.

---

05 Feb 09 - 12:40 PM (#2558113)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

I certainly wouldn't invite someone suffering with multiple personality disorder (which is almost certainly the way I personally would interpret a case of "posession by a Demon" to pray *with* me. Neither would I suggest they go on a journey to discover their "Power Animal". In fact - as a lay person - if someone I knew believed they were posessed by a Demon or were evincing behavioural traits which might in the past have been 'diagnosed' as posession by Demons, I'd encourage them to NOT to pray or indulge in ANY kind of introspection that might involve communicating with invisible powers of ANY kind.

I disagree that we are merely using different kinds of language to describe the same stuff. Psychological definintions describing various and vastly differing types of mental disorder are necessary to determine what treatment is applicable. I do think we still have a long way to go in learning about the mind.... An awful long way. But we still have come farther than reducing any kind of symptamology to "Demons" and the treatment of such, by "driving them out"

---

05 Feb 09 - 12:47 PM (#2558118)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Musket

Healthcare in The UK is subject to laws that protect people. This is a good thing as you are vulnerable when you require healthcare.

Also, because it is regulated, it means that you can expect healthcare. You don't have to expect the district nurse to clear your gutters, mow your lawn or help you understand how to operate the video player.

It was asked above if any healthcare professional is on the side of the nurse. I think many people can sympathise with her plight, but I doubt any could condone abusing their position in this way. Leaving prayer cards at the homes of mainly elderly people? She is paid to change dressings, not give communion.

The more I think about it, the more I am glad the PCT have finally decided to do something about it. Patients deserve better.

---

05 Feb 09 - 12:55 PM (#2558125)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

Actually multiple personality disorder, is far too specific and indeed not necessarily applicable. I rattled that post off too quickly.

I think a variety of schizaphrenic conditions can result in hallucinations which might be subjectively experienced as - or indeed have been historically attributed to - "possession by Demons".

I don't know enough about mentall illness or it's treatments to engage any more deeply in this discussion, but I do know that there are indeed circumstances where encouraging someone with certain types of psychological disorders to pray to God for help, could potentially make matters far worse rather than better.

---

05 Feb 09 - 01:31 PM (#2558152)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Little Hawk

"what treatment is applicable"

Ah! That's always the question, isn't it? Had you been born in another century (either past or present), Sleepy Rosie, I'm sure you'd be vociferously defending whatever treatment method you were most familiar with in that century and which you took for granted. It might be good. It might not.

That is what people have been doing ever since Cro-Magnon Man or even before that. ;-) They've been doing what someone else told them to do.

You can only speak for yourself, Rosie. I'm not asking you to pray if it doesn't make sense to you. I wouldn't ask someone else not to pray if it did make sense to them. In either case, it wouldn't be my business to do that.

---

05 Feb 09 - 01:39 PM (#2558160)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: CarolC

Vegetarianism can't include Jello, because Jello is not vegetarian. One of the ingredients is bone marrow.

---

05 Feb 09 - 01:41 PM (#2558164)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: CarolC

I used to know some people who were ostentatious in their closet praying. They made a big deal of going into the closet to pray. I guess they didn't get the message.

---

05 Feb 09 - 02:20 PM (#2558196)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr

Georgiansilver wrote:"wyrdolafr had you read my last post in context .... as a reply to MaineDog, you might well have understood why I made those statements. I suggest you read it through again"

Actually some of the error wasn't so much misunderstanding your post, but phrasing my own badly. When I said you weren't clear on something, I really meant that the bible wasn't too clear, as it seems to be saying "pray alone and don't get too smug and 'hey, guys! Look at me, praying to God!'" about it all as well as it's a Christians duty to pray together when they get together and pray in public for people &c.

I suppose the Christian take on this is 'anytime's a good time to pray' or something rather than one or the other? ;)

The other point I made and worded badly was that if Jesus is on record as "praying alone at times", then how do you know he wasn't praying for the likes of the blind man or the lame man? Whilst I worded my last post very badly, my point still stands: if he prayed alone or in a private room, then how do you know what or what he wasn't praying about? You don't actually know one way or another.

---

05 Feb 09 - 02:25 PM (#2558204)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

"You can only speak for yourself, Rosie. I'm not asking you to pray if it doesn't make sense to you. I wouldn't ask someone else not to pray if it did make sense to them. In either case, it wouldn't be my business to do that."

Well, precisely.
And neither is it the business of someone hired to provide an essential non-spiritual service, to dabble in unsolicited spiritual ministering.
And ask those they are paid to provide that service to, to pray with them.

I'm not vociferously defending treatments available in the modern day, I think there is - as I said before - a long, long way to go.
But I still think we have also come a long way since the days of "driving out demons".

For what it's worth Little Hawk, I do pray. And as a Gnostic I believe in what works. I also know from personal experience, that spiritual healing can and does work.
But believing what I do about the power of the mind and even spiritual influences, I don't believe in just anyone dabbling in spiritual ministering in quite inaproppriate contexts.

Both my Mother and my Grandmother worked in the caring professions. My grandmother was a senior psychiatric nurse, who was also an extrememely devout Catholic and very serious about her faith.
While my Mother worked as a carer for the disabled and the elderly. And she was also a very good spiritual healer, especially (though not exclusively) with animals, as I can vouch for.

Neither of them blurred the boundaries between their spiritual lives and their work in the caring professions. Both of them kept their personal faiths very much to themselves.
Perhaps I take some of my own feelings on this matter, from their example. Both of them were women who I respect/ed hugely.

I myself even trained as a hands on healer many years ago...
And during the training, we were taught never to impose our unsolicited 'healing' on anyone.

---

05 Feb 09 - 02:43 PM (#2558217)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr

Little Hawk wrote: "5. Pray for them (Almost certainly harmless. Possibly helpful? Not for me to say, is it? Not for you either.)"

I think it is for me to say, sorry. If the patient/service user is actually aware of the praying I couldn't disagree more with the idea of it being "harmless". In fact, I can't think of a way of actually making matters more worse to someone suffering from delusional thinking. The last thing a sufferer of 'positive symptoms' such as delusional thinking or hallucinations needs is to be exposed to the idea that an external, intangible, supernatural force is capable of having some control over their life.

Religion/prayer is never a real positive influence in these kinds of cases. Even when religion has apparently 'saved' someone in these scenarios, invariably what actually happens is not only does it become a crutch but usually there's no real saving, just an exchange and moving from one thing to another.

---

05 Feb 09 - 02:49 PM (#2558223)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver

wyrdolafr...
>>>>>>>>The other point I made and worded badly was that if Jesus is on record as "praying alone at times", then how do you know he wasn't praying for the likes of the blind man or the lame man? Whilst I worded my last post very badly, my point still stands: if he prayed alone or in a private room, then how do you know what or what he wasn't praying about? You don't actually know one way or another<<<<<<<
Perhaps if you had read what the Bible says about Jesus and the Blind man... and the lame man..... your understanding would be better. I am sure Jesus prayed for the world when on His own.. but he met the blind man and healed him on the spot... likewise the lame man....
So unless He actually had a premonition or foreknowledge that He was going to meet them... why would He have prayed specifically for them in private?.
Best wishes, Mike.

---

05 Feb 09 - 02:54 PM (#2558228)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

Ditto Wyrdolafr! You made the point I was attempting to make, far more effectively and eloquently than I managed to.

Prayer, is in no way automatically benign. And especially where certain psychological disorders are concerned.

---

05 Feb 09 - 02:58 PM (#2558230)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: pdq

This morning, our new president gave a rousing speach at a prayer breakfast.

He said that our country in under God and that he will use His power to form that fabled "more perfect union".

Essentially, Obama is praying over us without our permission.

Can we expect him to be "suspended pending investigation"?

---

05 Feb 09 - 03:08 PM (#2558242)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,goatfell

well maybe if the pc brigade had their way

---

05 Feb 09 - 03:15 PM (#2558253)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr

Georgiansilver wrote: "Perhaps if you had read what the Bible says about Jesus and the Blind man... and the lame man..... your understanding would be better. I am sure Jesus prayed for the world when on His own.. but he met the blind man and healed him on the spot... likewise the lame man....
So unless He actually had a premonition or foreknowledge that He was going to meet them... why would He have prayed specifically for them in private?."

I'm familiar enough with the bible to know these stories, please give me some credit! :D

Your point about Jesus not praying in private in these cases isn't quite as logical as you'd probably like to think though. Surely prayer doesn't have to be a 'there and then, in-person' kind of thing? Other-wise, how do so many prayers actually work in the first place? All those church prayers, school assembly prayers, bed time prayers they were done 'remote' and often 'after the fact'.

To bring this more relevant to the thread topic, that's one of the points that makes little sense to me. If prayer works both ways - 'in situ' and 'remote') why would the nurse have wanted to actually pray with someone unless it was some kind of proselytising?

Also, I genuinely mean this with respect, but surely the idea of if Jesus and foreknowledge &c is a bit odd? You know, the son of an omniscient God and all that? Again, I'm honestly not being facetious. Maybe I have more faith in Jesus' abilities or something? I'd have thought that if anyone would know of something in advance and could pray/cure 'remotely', then it would be Jesus.

Perhaps the kind of Christianity I've been exposed to in the past has wrongly hyped up Jesus in that respect. Again, not being facetious, sarcastic or anything - I have my own beliefs and I'm quite conscious of trying to respect other people's in the way I'd like mine to be respected.

---

05 Feb 09 - 03:41 PM (#2558276)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe

Sorry Little Hawk, last time I looked at the NICE guidelines for treatment of schizophrenia, neither prayer nor exorcism were included as evidence-based treatments. Maybe the Cochrane Collaboration could do a systematic review of randomised control trials of driving out demons as a way of treating psychosis...

Just because something was acceptable in the past as a way of attempting to understand the apparently inexplicable, doesn't mean it stands up to modern day scrutiny. Blood letting, knocking chunks out of people's skulls and other barbaric practices are discredited treatments for damned good reasons.

However, I'll agree with you that modern anti-psychotic drugs are still far from perfect. A lot of the people I work with consider them to be a far better option than the torment and misery of untreated psychosis. Even so, most would rather not have to take them and suffer the side effects they can induce. Personally, as a mental health practitioner, I would like to see a day when my services were no longer required. I hope there can be further advances in our understanding of mental illness and other mental distress leading to the development of cleaner, more effective treatments, whether they be drug therapies or talking therapies or something we haven't even thought of yet. In the meantime, thankfully we are looking at recovery focused services rather than mass incarceration... pity the media and a worryingly large section of the general public still think of mental illness in terms of the person who is "experiencing paranoid delusions of some kind and kills some innocent people who are really no threat to him at all and mutilates their bodies" rather than, as is the case in the vast majority of cases, a risk only to themselves.

---

05 Feb 09 - 03:42 PM (#2558277)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

Just realised, I may have appeared to contradict one of my earlier statements.

When I said I had no training in ministering to 'The Soul' I did not include training I took in hands on healing in that. Which I guess, might possibly apply.
Though in my initial post I was thinking in more in terms of Religious Spiritual Ministering, than alternative therapies such as hands on healing.
Despite training some years ago in Spiritual/Energy Healing, I've never formally worked, gained any depth of practical experience, or provided a service in that capacity.

This post is a complete aside and irrelevent to the core of this thread, but I wanted to offer a correction to any seeming contradiction in my prior statements.

---

05 Feb 09 - 03:43 PM (#2558279)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Warning to ALL nurses. Do NOT enter this site, or indeed read the post at all, if you want to keep your job.   :0)


Nurses Prayers


'I Dedicate Myself To Thee'

I dedicate myself to thee,
0 Lord, my God, this work I undertake
Alone in thy great name, and for thy sake.
In ministering to suffering I would learn
The sympathy that in thy heart did burn.

Take, then, mine eyes, and teach them to perceive
The ablest way each sick one to relieve.
Guide thou my hands, that e'en their touch may prove
The gentleness and aptness born of love.
Bless thou my feet, and while they softly tread
May faces smile on many a sufferer's bed.
Touch thou my lips, guide thou my tongue,
Give me a work in sermon for each one.
Clothe me with patience, strength all tasks to bear,
Crown me with hope and love, which know no fear,
And faith, that coming face to face with death
Shall e'en inspire with joy the dying breath.
All through the arduous day my actions guide,
All through the lonely night watch by my side,
So I shall wake refreshed, with strength to pray,
Work in me, through me, with me, Lord, this day.

:: Author Unknown

---

05 Feb 09 - 03:47 PM (#2558283)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe

Lovely, Lizzie, for religiously minded nurses to use... when off duty!

---

05 Feb 09 - 04:19 PM (#2558317)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr

Spleen Cringe wrote: "Personally, as a mental health practitioner, I would like to see a day when my services were no longer required".

Pfft! The way cutbacks and restructuring are going, that day might come sooner or later.

---

05 Feb 09 - 04:35 PM (#2558332)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Joybell

That's the silliest statement I've read on this whole thread. I took the Nightingale Oath when I began my training. It has a phrase that mentions God. There has never been a rule about nurses NOT being allowed to pray -- off duty as Spleen Cringe says. Or even on duty between them and God.

As for the President of the USA. Is he likely to come into my home and change my dressings? WOW! Now there's an image.

Ian Mather another refreshing voice of reason.   

Does anyone else feel as though they're being beaten on the head by a Christian stick? Or is it just me.

Ha! Ha! Lost my job already. Got old! Can't be banned from this discussion! I'll come here if I like. So there!
Cheers, Joy

---

05 Feb 09 - 05:06 PM (#2558373)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Little Hawk

You might be missing my point, guys (and gals). I'm not defending the care worker's right to have made that prayer. Neither am I attacking it. I have no opinion about that incident, because I don't think I know enough about it to have an opinion. I'd have to have been there and know the people involved quite well to have an informed opinion about it.

No, I am just holding a general philosophical discussion about the nature of unquestioning belief in any society, how it works, how blind it is, and how unquestioning most people's faith is in the assumptions they normally go on. You, for instance, wyrdolafr....you have faith so strong and adamant that it's harder than carbon steel. You are rock set in your assumptions...they're just not "religious" assumptions, that's all. They are other assumptions formed on a different set of mental rules, and buttressed by the sort of absolute certainty that makes religious fanatics so hard to deal with.

You find that among the religious. You find it among the non-religious too. They all apparently KNOW that they are right, dead right...and that those who see it another way are wrong, dead wrong. Therein lies their problem. Their problem is their fecking judgemental attitude over other people!

I think you're probably both wrong. I think you're probably ALL wrong in a number of ways, in different ways that you'll never know or admit to. I think that NONE of us here actually knows the whole story or has even begun to. Most people haven't even scratched the surface of life yet, but they think they're in the know about all kinds of subtle things that they have no actual experience or understanding of whatsoever. Most people are about 98% ignorant opinions that they got from someone else and 2% actually in the know about anything from real experience. To admit that to themselves would be very scary. So they form an attitude of absolute certainty about all kinds of stuff they don't really know much about, they become opinionated fanatics, and they spend the rest of their life arguing and fighting with other people who follow a different form of opinionated fanaticism.

It's a big waste of time if you ask me...just like most of the wrangling on this thread.

How can you possibly know whether prayer sometimes works or not? How can you possibly be so arrogant as to imagine that you have any basis for claiming such knowledge? You don't know. You have no way of knowing. You just have another loudmouthed opinion based on a set of facile assumptions that you got somewhere. You're no better in that respect than a religious fanatic is with his loudmouthed opinion based on his set of facile assumptions that he got somewhere. You both deserve each other is what I think.

Let all those among you who are 100% sure that they are RIGHT go off to some island, and you can all fight and kill each other there, and maybe leave the rest of us in peace for a change. It would be nice to be among people who aren't so sure they already know everything. Relaxing. Refreshing. Open to discussion. You could pray. You could not pray. And no one would mind one way or the other.

---

05 Feb 09 - 05:37 PM (#2558398)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

"You might be missing my point, guys (and gals). I'm not defending the care worker's right to have made that prayer."

Well, Little Hawk, unfortunately it is that very "Nurse offering to pray with patients" case cited in the thread title, which forms the fulcrum from which this entre discussion is being generated.
I don't think anyone is assuming perfection here. Just offering the dangers implicit in her case, and why what she did might not be the best of things - especially if officially endorsed, despite her best intentions.

---

05 Feb 09 - 05:41 PM (#2558402)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

"And no one would mind one way or the other."

Ah, but.....not *necessarily* LOL

After all, you don't know us all, Little Hawk...(sorry, I'm being wickedly mischievious here) :0) That was a good post of yours. I liked that.

It's a funny ol' life these days, where kindness gets you an' all.

Anyway, we'll be OK, so long as no-one offers to pray for anyone, anywhere, ever again. That should solve the problem, I reckons..

Of course, what she should have said is, "Would you like me to tell you what folk music is?" then..there'd have been noooooo problems at all....

Unless of coure, the ol' lady concerned didn't like folk music, in which case....

Uh Oh....................... ;0)

---

05 Feb 09 - 05:43 PM (#2558403)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

AND, Joy has awarded me the 'Silliest Post of the Thread' Award, so the rest of you will have to go suck on a banana or something, I'm afriad, 'cos....I won! :0)

I wonder what St. Francis of Assisi would make of all this.....?

---

05 Feb 09 - 05:53 PM (#2558413)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr

Little Hawk. The first half of this thread was speaking from someone who does have 'faith' - at least in the spiritual sense. Certainly not some kind of pig-headedness. Unlike many on the thread, I was able to see it from both sides and come to an opinion.

Whereas the last half of this thread wasn't any kind of 'faith' at all - it was based on personal experience and the experiences of a fair amount of people I know. That's not "faith" or "assumptions".

I think you're the one making assumptions.

---

05 Feb 09 - 06:01 PM (#2558418)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jean(eanjay)

I was pleased to see that the situation has now been resolved and found the report in Christian Today interesting.

---

05 Feb 09 - 06:47 PM (#2558453)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie

Lizzie Cornish, if you read that poem/prayer that you posted more carefully I would think that you'll see that it does not at all support your contention that the nurse should be allowed to offer prayer to unsoliciting patients.

This prayer quite clearly is verbalizing what I said way back that I respect anyone trying for clarity, sureness of hand and word and sensitivity of approach before going to work.

'I Dedicate Myself To Thee'

I dedicate myself to thee,
0 Lord, my God, this work I undertake
Alone in thy great name, and for thy sake.
In ministering to suffering I would learn
The sympathy that in thy heart did burn.

Take, then, mine eyes, and teach them to perceive
The ablest way each sick one to relieve.
Guide thou my hands, that e'en their touch may prove
The gentleness and aptness born of love.
Bless thou my feet, and while they softly tread
May faces smile on many a sufferer's bed.
Touch thou my lips, guide thou my tongue,
Give me a work in sermon for each one.
Clothe me with patience, strength all tasks to bear,
Crown me with hope and love, which know no fear,
And faith, that coming face to face with death
Shall e'en inspire with joy the dying breath.
All through the arduous day my actions guide,
All through the lonely night watch by my side,
So I shall wake refreshed, with strength to pray,
Work in me, through me, with me, Lord, this day.

---

05 Feb 09 - 07:09 PM (#2558471)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Rowan

Now that the nurse has been reinstated it might be a good move to put her through Dan's CPE units.

Cheers, Rowan

---

05 Feb 09 - 08:45 PM (#2558555)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

As Andrea Williams said, this decision is a victory for common sense.

Which, evidently, is not the goal of an amazing number of Mudcatters.

Jan, who does not believe in any God whatsoever--sometimes calls herself an atheist-- says she totally supports the decision. And when she was in the hospital for a very serious neck operation, a chaplain came around to her and asked if she wanted to pray with him. She declined. Then he asked if he could pray for her in the hospital chapel. She said that was fine.

She's with Kendall:   any positive energy is good.

In this case, the nurse offered. The woman declined. That should have been the end of it.

There was evidently no coercion whatsoever or attempted evangelizing of the older woman in the nurse's case.

All those who saw a threat in the nurse's behavior must have lurid tales to tell about being whipped by sadistic nuns earlier in life. Otherwise it's a mystery why so many Mudcatters are so violently opposed to religion--and Christianity in particular.

It's fortunate the legal system did not have to waste its time on this.

Religious bigotry and unwanted proselytizing do obviously exist. ( Look at Rev. Falwell and others of his ilk.   And Bishop Richard Williamson is a real gem.) But this ain't it.

I'm surprised so many Mudcatters, highly intelligent and articulate as they are, did not recognize this.

---

05 Feb 09 - 09:02 PM (#2558567)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Rowan

it's a mystery why so many Mudcatters are so violently opposed to religion--and Christianity in particular.

I can't speak for anyone else but I suspect the context in which one has experienced life's lesson's might have wrought some influence. Those of us who grew up in North America, the British Isles or Oz (thus covering a significant proportion of 'catters) have done so with a lot of argument and, occasionally, a little rational discussion of religion and/or atheism going on in the background and most of it was probably couched in terms relevant to judaeo-christian notions of culture, ethics, morals etc.

It would be rather difficult to not have a few entrenched opinions by the time one became fully adult and many of these would be firmly attached to emotionally charged experiences. It's rather rare that a purely rational argument can effect a change to an emotionally charged belief, irrespective of whether religion is involved.

But most of us try to rub along with the diversity around us; it tends to enrich our experience.

Cheers, Rowan

---

06 Feb 09 - 03:09 AM (#2558721)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe

Strikes me as a pragmatic decision by the PCT. Once she had got the machinery of the Christian rights lobby behind her, they no doubt decided not to waste public money on a lengthy and expensive court battle.

---

06 Feb 09 - 03:12 AM (#2558723)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver

Or maybe they discovered that she had not actually breeched any code of conduct!!! She had done her job efficiently and the offer of prayer was altruistic and non intrusive!!!

---

06 Feb 09 - 04:10 AM (#2558743)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: VirginiaTam

The PCT ought to worry about whether or not potentially offended patients will file complaints.

What that woman is doing is not professional and is an invasion of spiritual and/or personal privacy.

I was raised a moderate baptist. I found my way into fundamental ultra conservative baptist church in young adulthood, which resulted in me (fortunately) extricating myself from the whole judeo-christian doctrine by my mid 30s.

I politely tolerate offers of prayers from my baptist mother and aunt. There is no point in hurting these octogenarian ladies who care for me as a whole person. Besides they will only pray all the harder for me if I require that they don't.

I can say that because of my self-imposed lack of religious belief that such an offer from a professional would make me uncomfortable. If I was an atheist or a person of non judeo-christian background and of a less tolerant disposition it would make me angry.

To be clear... I am not saying that I do not believe in god. I believe there must be some kind of conscious intelligence behind all that is.
I just don't believe in religion. I feel religion is divisive and dangerous. People (children, elderly, vulnerable innocents) suffer and die because of it. Wars and globally destructive ways of life are justified because of it. These are my feelings, I do not expect or insist that anyone agree.

As to that nurse... it would be enough for her to simply say that her patients are in her thoughts. However, if professionals and patients wish to embark on this type of spiritual relationship, there could be a solution.

Why not some indication in patient's records as to whether they are happy to receive spiritual attention? This could cover both sides of the issue. The desire to give it and the willingness to receive it. It should remove the surprise and pressure of unsolicited offer and protect the professional who wants to give that extra care.

I know a very tricky thing to word on patient history. But possibly could be done.

---

06 Feb 09 - 04:51 AM (#2558759)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

"Strikes me as a pragmatic decision by the PCT. Once she had got the machinery of the Christian rights lobby behind her, they no doubt decided not to waste public money on a lengthy and expensive court battle."

Aye, people forget how powerful some Christian organisations can be.
Is it any wonder so many of us are disillusioned and suspicious?

A shame this case went the way it did. Obviously my local vicar of whom I've heard very good things as a sage councellor, need not have bothered spending all that time studying for his theology degree because we have plumbers and fishmongers who can provide the spiritual and pastoral care which he currently provides, just as well!

And the fact that this woman was an evangelical Christian is hardly a big old shocker either. I loathe the way some groups like this proselytise amongst the vulnerable.
And frankly, I don't believe that she was merely being kind or helpful, I believe her motive was to find little old lady converts..
Cynical much? You bet!

---

06 Feb 09 - 05:36 AM (#2558772)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

Or maybe they discovered that she had not actually breeched any code of conduct!!! She had done her job efficiently and the offer of prayer was altruistic and non intrusive!!!

An offer of prayer can never be altruistic and non intrusive; on the contrary, it is an invasive imposition based entirely on the subjective presuppositions of the believer that what they believe is somehow relevant to anyone but themselves. As for breeching the code of conduct - offering to pray for someone is not delivering care based on best available evidence, nor is it demonstrating a personal and professional commitment to equality and diversity. It is, in fact, an abuse of a privileged position for personal ends.

---

06 Feb 09 - 05:40 AM (#2558773)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Musket

Just a point regarding political correctness, as the term seems to spring up a lot in this discussion.

If the PCT had not felt they could discipline the nurse, THAT would be political correctness.

You can hear the arguments now, "Freedom of expression of religious beliefs."

Luckily, the PCT ignored side issues and made it clear that an employee, when invited into a home as an employee, works to her employer's and her own professional registration's policies and practices. That is why this situation arose. Nothing to do with religion per se. If she was handing out cards for, say, a relative's insurance company, the situation would be the same.

If a patient asks a nurse to pray for them, that is a different matter. Nobody expects her to say she isn't allowed. A combination of training and common sense, that's all it takes. A bit different to offering or leaving prayer cards.

I note she is back at work. A good outcome then. But before anybody says she won, you will find she accepted her terms of employment and will have stopped mixing her professional duties with her faith conviction.

---

06 Feb 09 - 05:46 AM (#2558779)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jean(eanjay)

If a patient asks a nurse to pray for them, that is a different matter.

If people are not allowed to discuss their religion at work how would a patient know that a nurse has any beliefs in order to ask them to pray without causing offence? For equality and diversity this can't be a one way thing; both the patient and the nurse have rights.

---

06 Feb 09 - 06:15 AM (#2558787)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Musket

Many elderly patients do indeed ask people to pray for them, and the most common reason being having a disability that does not allow them to attend their church.

eanjay states that nurses and patients have rights. Too true. However, the patient is not bound by a code of conduct, hence the situation can and does occur.

It is quite simple. When you are giving clinical care, you do that. You do it kindly, courteously and in a way that helps put the patient at ease. BUT you concentrate on carrying out your professional duty.

To be brutally honest, I am at a loss as to how some people on this thread, who I am sure are well educated rational people, cannot see the wrong in leaving prayer cards when you have been invited into somebody's house in order to dress a wound or whatever. You are betraying that trust, even if we disregard the professional code of conduct and training, the public expect that people invited into their house on business will stick to that business and not use the invite as a springboard to other things, whether that turned out to be welcomed or not.

---

06 Feb 09 - 06:28 AM (#2558793)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: VirginiaTam

Yay to Ian's last post.

Let's look at it like this. If a social worker who worked with anorexic patients also happened to be an Avon representative, would it be appropriate for this professional to leave cosmetics catalogues with people on his/her caseload?

This is an extreme analogy... but card carrying believers get some type of personal if not monetary reward for reaching and making converts.

So to my mind not that different.

---

06 Feb 09 - 07:09 AM (#2558822)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ruth Archer

I've just remembered something that happened to me about 10 years ago. I had had surgery, but had quite a bad post-operative infection. When I was finally well enough to recuperate at home I received a visit from our village's vicar. He wanted to know if I needed anything. Not knowing what my religious convictions were, he didn't ask and we didn't talk about it. We chatted about Leicester City FC (he was their chaplain), he made sure I didn't need milk or bread or my loo cleaning or my daughter picking up from school - and then he left.

He clearly felt a duty of pastoral care and general neighbourliness. He may have even gone home any prayed for me on his own. But he did NOT offer to pray for me, or with me. I can only assume that this is because he understood his job a lot better than the nurse in question, and understood where the boundaries are, especially in a person's own home. If I had asked, no doubt he would have prayed with me, but it was up to ME to ask. I find it interesting that a person whose stock-in-trade is spirituality can be wise enough to know where those boundaries are and respect them.

---

06 Feb 09 - 08:31 AM (#2558884)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

Regards my own local vicar, a friend of mine went to speak with him about some mental and emotional troubles she was going through. My friend is ironically agnostic, even atheist leaning. But she was in a state of desperation and although I don't know exactly why she sought out the vicar. She told me it was some of the most grounded and useful guidance and advice she had ever recieved. He responded to her personal troubles with compassion and intelligence, but he never mixed his religion into it. His own religious training and his work ethic, presumably doesn't include proselytisation, even with those who actively seek him out for his professional pastoral duties.

I think this example, and the one Ruth Archer above cites, demostrate why people actually get trained to do this kind of work. And indeed why other 'well meaning' individuals are not equipped to dabble in spiritual ministering. There are people out there who take their work seriously and understand that you just can't go around inflicting your religion on strangers.

PS, Little Hawk, I think that some of your last comments were innapropriate and rude, even verging on personal attack. And you may think me a loudmouth, but at least I'm not inclined to reduce an otherwise rational and well mannered debate, into unwarranted and indeed somewhat offensive personal criticisms.

---

06 Feb 09 - 09:05 AM (#2558918)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Richard Bridge

I have read the thread - a little hurriedly in places.

I have visited the links - the TV one does not work. It is a report about something else, now.

I am not religious.

The code of conduct does not prohibit what is reported as having happened. There is no evidence of denial of diversity and equality. The power of an employer to create a diversity and equaity code does not create an unlimited right to require the ridiculous. The power is rightly limited to what is reasonable and lawful (it is an aspect of the employers power of command). The code itself is not in evidence here but it is hard to see how it could "lawfully and reasonably" have prohibited what was done.

The apparent outcome is exactly right.

I am quite alarmed by Maher's views on how far his power of command (and maybe droit de seigneur too) extends.

---

06 Feb 09 - 09:14 AM (#2558929)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Backwoodsman

Thank you Richard, for that piece of sanity.
Thank God there are a few of us left.

---

06 Feb 09 - 09:44 AM (#2558969)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine

Backwoodsman, on the face of it, I'd agree that surely it's more polite to ask someone's permission than to pray "behind their back"

But having thought about it, actually I think that prayer is ultimately between the person praying and the deity they pray to. By asking someone else whether they would like to be "prayed for", you are implicitly telling them something of your own beliefs, and asking for approval. And a vulnerable patient might well feel a refusal would make things awkward. The same might happen if someone were to talk about their political views. That doesn't constitute a sackable offence, but I'd expect a healthcare professional to be a bit more sensitive in that respect.

Anyway, if I find myself in the same situation I shall answer "Yes, you can pray for me if it's helpful to you"

---

06 Feb 09 - 10:52 AM (#2559052)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ruth Archer

"So-o-o-o-o.........praying for someone without their knowledge (and therefore without their permission) is OK, but asking their permission to pray for them is not OK?"

Yes, actually, Backwoodsman. Because if he is genuinely and altruistically interested in my welfare, it does no one any harm for him to go home and ask his god to look out for me. As I don't believe in his god, I don't really mind that.

If he had asked me if I wanted him to pray for me, however, he would have been asking for my complicity - something I would have been uncomfortable about giving and equally, out of politeness, about refusing. It would have been an abuse of my vulnerable position. Maybe a small one, but I would not have felt good about it. Asking me to pray with him would have been even more so.

---

06 Feb 09 - 12:02 PM (#2559105)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,NHS Patient

An old man was in hospital.
Lying in bed, he leaned over to the pretty young nurse attending to him
and whispered in her ear
"Give us a kiss, luv!"

"No!", replied the nurse

"Oh go on!", said the man

"No!", replied the nurse again

"Please!", begged the old man, "Just a quick peck on the cheek?"

"For the last time, no!", said the nurse, "I shouldn't even be w@nking you off!"

...well, some might agree that would be more positively recuperative than an unsolicited prayer..
though whether it would be a more serious breach of professional conduct ???

---

06 Feb 09 - 12:24 PM (#2559129)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: VirginiaTam

snorting my tea through my nose

---

06 Feb 09 - 01:49 PM (#2559215)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Richard Bridge

I think NHS patient is asking for a daffodil where he does not want a thermometer...

---

06 Feb 09 - 03:41 PM (#2559360)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Backwoodsman

OK Ruth, I understand what you're saying (well, I understand the words - I find your perception very perverse, if not disturbing, but, hey, whatever puts the nutmeg on yer rice pudding!).

Me? I'd take truth and honesty - openness right up-front - every time. And I have the grace and self-confidence to appreciate, and be grateful for, the desire of another human being to elicit on my behalf the good influence of whichever God they believe in. I'm genuinely sorry for anyone who would feel threatened by such a thing.

Not commenting about you specifically, Ruth, but about the many who seem to perceive others' kindness and faith as somehow threatening.

Surreal.

---

06 Feb 09 - 04:16 PM (#2559398)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Joybell

So now this elderly lady (along with many of us) is without grace and self-confidence and gratitude?

---

06 Feb 09 - 04:23 PM (#2559402)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c

For me it's not about kindness and faith being threatening. It's having been almost pinned down on a couple of occasions by Christians who feel a need to convert others to their own way of thinking. One of these was a relative, a situation that became extremely embarrassing as she was not going to take no for an answer. After that sort of experience one becomes extremely chary about letting even a foot get in the door.

---

06 Feb 09 - 04:25 PM (#2559405)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ruth Archer

Pray all you like, mate, just don't ask for my complicity. I grew up in a staunchly Catholic family, was taught by nuns, the whole nine yards. You think MY perception is perverse? Disturbing? I can talk to you all bloody day about perverse and disturbing stuff done
in the name of your god. I had enough of this stuff shoved down my throat in the first 16 years of my life to last me several lifetimes, thanks all the same. I choose not to have sanctimonious creeping-Jesus god-bothering in my life, and I object most strenuously to anyone who thinks their faith somehow overrides my right to a very specific and deliberate personal choice. End of.

---

06 Feb 09 - 04:32 PM (#2559413)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Joybell

Amen oh Amen.

---

06 Feb 09 - 04:40 PM (#2559419)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe

I think one of the problems is that certain brands of Christianity place a massive emphasis on "witnessing", pulling in converts, "evangelising" etc. It is seen as being absolutely at the core of the religion and seen to supercede laws, codes of conduct, agreed behavioural norms and so on - in a nutshell, "I follow God's law not man's law". As a non-believer, this position comes across as unbelievably arrogant, but to the evangelical Christian its a no-brainer. Bums on seats for God is where it's at, and no poxy rules and regulations are gonna stop me! Therefore stuff that other workers - who might have a variety of political and religious and cultural views they'd love to share - consider inappropriate when providing healthcare is seen as fair game to the born again Christian. This is complicated by the fact that evangelical Christians consider everything they do as inherently benign because they can't imagine anything more wonderful and life enhancing than bringing someone to Jesus, and consider those who are mystified by this worldview as blind to the truth.

On that basis alone, this issue will run and run.

Me, I had a lucky escape. I was running with a bad crowd (the Young People's Fellowship at the local Methodist church) and I was easily led. Before I knew it I was mainlining top quality evangelical preachers all the way from the States, and there I was, down at the front, having hands laid on, being saved. Luckily, a short few years later I discovered girls! drink! punk rock! dope! anarchist politics! fun! self determination! and so on and ... I died again. I'm still in recovery...

---

06 Feb 09 - 04:52 PM (#2559427)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Backwoodsman

"For me it's not about kindness and faith being threatening. It's having been almost pinned down on a couple of occasions by Christians who feel a need to convert others to their own way of thinking. One of these was a relative, a situation that became extremely embarrassing as she was not going to take no for an answer. After that sort of experience one becomes extremely chary about letting even a foot get in the door."

I understand that, jacqui. I've never had that experience - in the past I've turned offers down and that was that, even when the Jehovah's Witnesses came a-callin' they've always taken "no" for an answer. No problem.

My experiences (certainly in recent years) have all been positive and beneficial. I understand and sympathise with those who haven't been so lucky.

---

06 Feb 09 - 04:59 PM (#2559429)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

One member of my family keeps a cast iron inverted pentagram on his front door, to ward off the evangelists...

I myself keep intending to buy one of these delightful Gnostic T-Shirts

---

06 Feb 09 - 05:06 PM (#2559435)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

I died again.

Amen, brother!

---

06 Feb 09 - 05:11 PM (#2559440)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

Oooh, or maybe another way to spread the brilliant news...
A nice pack of Gnostic greetings cards, or even a thought provoking Gnostic tile coaster!
Proselytising was never so much fun!

---

06 Feb 09 - 05:23 PM (#2559453)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver

Sleepy Rosie... Bad news for you!!! Just because you don't believe there is a God... doesn't mean there isn't one! What gives you the right to put down Christians just because you don't believe what they do I ask?????

---

06 Feb 09 - 05:25 PM (#2559455)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere

Sleepie Rosie, I just had a glance at that T-Shirt. I'm sure you wouldn't dream of wearing such a horrible thing. I know some people might think it smart or funny, but that for me is where it crosses the line. it's one thing not to want someone's religion (or indeed, beliefs generally) invading your space, but it's quite another to go out of one's way to offend their sense of decency, as a T-shirt like that does.

I quite understand people not wanting to hear about my religion and my beliefs, but at work, for example, I find myself all the time having to hear about theirs as certain people lose no opportunity to mock the religion to which I proscribe and speak almost with venom of it (i am not exaggerating here). I never bring my religion up at work unless religion and beliefs are already a topic of conversation started by someone else, and even then I rarely do. Likewise I'd expect my non-believing colleagues to at least practice their disdain behind closed doors.


Not wanting another person's religion in your face (which I accept as quite reasonable) has a corollary - not going out of your way to ridicule their beliefs. In fact, doing so only puts them in the unfair position of feeling obliged to say something about it while binding them with the restraint at the same time that if they do, they are somehow 'evangalising'

I'm sure the T-shirt was just a joke, but I hope you can see it is a tad offensive?

---

06 Feb 09 - 05:52 PM (#2559487)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver

Sleepy Rosie... can I please draw your attention to this post of yours... or at least your last statement ...a PS to Little Hawk....

<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie - PM
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 08:31 AM

Regards my own local vicar, a friend of mine went to speak with him about some mental and emotional troubles she was going through. My friend is ironically agnostic, even atheist leaning. But she was in a state of desperation and although I don't know exactly why she sought out the vicar. She told me it was some of the most grounded and useful guidance and advice she had ever recieved. He responded to her personal troubles with compassion and intelligence, but he never mixed his religion into it. His own religious training and his work ethic, presumably doesn't include proselytisation, even with those who actively seek him out for his professional pastoral duties.

I think this example, and the one Ruth Archer above cites, demostrate why people actually get trained to do this kind of work. And indeed why other 'well meaning' individuals are not equipped to dabble in spiritual ministering. There are people out there who take their work seriously and understand that you just can't go around inflicting your religion on strangers.

PS, Little Hawk, I think that some of your last comments were innapropriate and rude, even verging on personal attack. And you may think me a loudmouth, but at least I'm not inclined to reduce an otherwise rational and well mannered debate, into unwarranted and indeed somewhat offensive personal criticisms.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


What are you not inclined to do SleepyRosie?

---

06 Feb 09 - 06:03 PM (#2559500)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

I'm sure the T-shirt was just a joke, but I hope you can see it is a tad offensive?

Hardly offensive, given that the t-short is a perfectly valid expression of a central tenet of Gnosticism. To quote from the site:

"Some of them say that the serpent was Sophia herself; for this reason it was opposed to the maker of Adam and gave knowledge to men, and therefore is called the wisest of all [Gen. 3:1]. And the position of our intestines through which food is taken in, and their shape, shows that the hidden Mother in the shape of a serpent is a substance within us."

(St. Iranaeus of Lyon, Against Heresies: The Sethian-Ophites, pub ~ A.D. 180, from Willis Barnstone's The Other Bible, p.664, pub. A.D.1984)

---

06 Feb 09 - 06:05 PM (#2559502)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ruth Archer

I would like to day that Backwoodsman and I have shared some PMs, and it's all big, secular love here in Lincolnshire. :)

---

06 Feb 09 - 06:11 PM (#2559510)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

I was sort of making a point there. As stated previously, I am Gnostic in my beliefs, and these are images - which despite their graphic nature and rather subversive humour - nevertheless still embody quite genuine Gnostic beliefs - as may be found in slightly less contemporary form in the Gnostic myths and gospels.

I wondered if anyone on this list might be offended by me shoving their noses into my beliefs?

I know that the way I in which I attempted to make this point, was rather melodramatic. And I suspect it will look incredibly childish and pointless to most. But it was purposive, for I hoped it might potentially generate some reconsideration of the possible offense and sense of intrusion, that other forms of *superficially benign* proselytisation could very genuinely cause to those of us, who do not subscribe to mainstream Christianity, or indeed to any form of spiritual faith.

Even so, I have a feeling that not too many people will buy that!
And on that no doubt unsatisfactory note, I'll now leave this thread to those who wish to continue debating.

---

06 Feb 09 - 06:18 PM (#2559522)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ruth Archer

I gotta say I think the t-shirt is full on, but have no problem with the coasters. In your own home, what is wrong with expressing your own beliefs?

My daughter has a t-shirt that has an image of the Blessed Virgin on it, with the inscription "Mary is my homegirl". Personally i think it's a great shirt, but we have had conversations about where and how it's appropriate for her to wear it - it's difficult to explain to a 15 year old that there's a difference between edgy self-expression and deliberately causing offence to strangers - maybe even nice old ladieslike your nan. And is that a line you really want to cross? It's an important conversation to have, i feel, even if she doesn't always agree with me.

---

06 Feb 09 - 06:35 PM (#2559537)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere

In your own home, yes. My point was it was in the public domain.

---

06 Feb 09 - 06:47 PM (#2559548)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Joybell

Melodrama has its place. This thread surely has become one of those places.
Amen Rosie. Amen Ruth.
Goodbye from me.
Cheers from and with Joy

---

06 Feb 09 - 06:53 PM (#2559552)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere

Well, offence seems to be a combination of two things: 1) the eye of the beholder and 2) the intention with which something is done or said. Sleepie Rosie acknowledges she was trying to be offensive to make a point, fair enough, I understand the point she's making. And it's had the added benefit of warning me off gnosticism for life (which I once dabbled in). So, no real harm done.

And, erm, surely you can see the logical inconsistency in saying that something can't be offensive to someone else just because it is a central tenet of gnostic belief? Haven't people on this thread been arguing that they find both Christianity (or some of its central tenets) offensive to their way of thinking?

I mentioned my work place as an example of where I most definitely keep my beliefs to myself - it is a most hostile environment in that sense, so I keep things on a purely mundane level. Most of my colleagues would have a major problem with me were I to even be seen praying to myself at work, or if they saw a rosary, or I were to state my point of view on something from any hint of religious basis.

For my part I accept we don't see eye-to-eye and don't bring it up unless asked directly - and then often reluctantly. The net is a it more distant and anonymous so I dare dip my toe in the water more often.

On the other hand, for their part, my colleagues are often very outspoken in their criticism of religion, which more often than not borders on mockery whether they are aware of it or not. While I hear them saying 'religion is grand in private in your home' they don't see any logical inconsistency or injustice in mocking religion quite publicly in the workplace. Their mockery is of course based on their beliefs and views - which, were they to practice what they preach, they would keep to themselves.

I suspect part of the reason is that a 'culture' has emerged in our workplace where most people sense it is alright to mock religion, that it won't be socially unacceptable, whether or not they hold such strong views in private. So there is a tendency to go along with the herd on that one. I don't want to create a ruckus at work, so I generally keep quiet and hope people can guess my feelings from the fact I don't participate in such discussions or leave the room when they start. Hopefully they'll be able to associate the two events and guess something from it without having to have it spelled out.

Here, on the net I hope I can be a little bit more frank. Maybe?

---

06 Feb 09 - 07:57 PM (#2559606)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Richard Bridge

You know what? Having above stated that I do not see the nurse's expression of her belief as inappropriate, I'm going to say that I do not see Sleepy Rosie's t-shirt, or indeed the famous Cradle of Filth Tee-shirt ("Cherish the whore") as beyond the pale. The oppressions that pretty well ALL organised religions have brought forth merit our scorn and condemnation.

Goodnight, and may your God go with you.

---

06 Feb 09 - 08:38 PM (#2559639)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Richard, and many others in this thread....there are very, very many religious people, of all faiths, who are kind, gentle and loving. To judge all on the bad ones that some have come into contact with is incredibly wrong.

"I met a short person once, I didn't like him, therefore ALL short people are horrid!"

"I met a person once, of different skin colour to me, I didn't like them, therefore I loathe ALL those who are of a different colour to me!"

"I met a man once, I didn't like him, therefore ALL men are disgusting!"

"I met a Christian once, I didn't like them, therefore ALL Christians and indeed ALL those of religious beliefs border on Evil!"

That's the way this thread is now going.

Why not see the good in people?

Why condemn the nurse as having 'ulterior motives' in offering a prayer? She asked one simple question, which caused no offence to the lady concerned..then she asked no more. And yet, she has become the scapegoat for the religious hatreds of many in here. It's a good job she wasn't tried in Days of Yore, or she may well have been burnt at the stake, if some of those who've passed 'judgement on her in here were deciding upon her fate.

This has all got so blown out of proportion. Years ago it wouldn't even have happened.   This is the danger of PC. The pedantry of it goes ever deeper, until in the end, nothing makes sense any longer, and you are left with a crowd baying for blood, getting their knitting needles ready, as they pull up their seats, next to the guillotine.


Yes indeed, may your God go with you...but it seems to me, from reading many of the posts in here, that those who *do* take their God with them seem to have a somewhat more charitable, open and positive outlook, far more ready to see good, than bad.

I'll take their God over the anger and bitterness in here.

I don't have 'religion' but I have 'faith'. I was born with it, it's always been there. I'd never pass 'judgement' on someone who wanted to pray for me. But, I guess we're all different.

Anyway, common sense has prevailed, for once. So there's probably little left to say, really....but somehow I expect that...............................

---

07 Feb 09 - 03:21 AM (#2559785)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Backwoodsman

Good post Lizzie. One more sane 'Catter.
And thanks Ruth, still buddies!
Now I'm outta here.

---

07 Feb 09 - 03:32 AM (#2559787)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver

I too am glad I have my Faith. Although I am happy to rationally discuss it with anyone and put my point across in the best way possible... I try not to resort to cheap shots at anyone else. Every one of us has been thrust into this sad world.. not by our own personal choice but for a reason... we didn't ask to be here but should we not be making the best of what we have and not 'downing' others because they do not think the same way we do??
I to am now out of here and wish you all the best.
Mike

---

07 Feb 09 - 03:56 AM (#2559789)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe

Bye, bye then, all three of you. Have a nice weekend. I'm off to work in a few minutes. On your way out of here, why not reflect on the fact that the pastors and the health and social care workers who contributed to this thread universally disagreed with this nurse's actions? Are we all cold, uncaring, politically correct? Or are we merely bringing an insider's perspective to the issue?

Interestingly, this issue has come up for discussion during lunchtime a few times this week. The only person who thought the nurse was right is a member of a fringe Christian sect who thinks Catholics and C of E aren't proper Christians...

---

07 Feb 09 - 11:50 AM (#2560053)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

"...universally disagreed..."    Not true.   Do you need specifics?

---

07 Feb 09 - 12:01 PM (#2560066)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

Added to which, as you may be aware, Mudcat is a left-of center site politically.   This should be obvious.   Therefore many of the contributors would reflect this.   And those who are not left of center may well have not contributed to the thread, thinking--with reason--that it would turn acrimonious--and they would be in the distinct minority.

For instance, considering Georgian Silver's work with the poor--in Hungary?--- he should be considered a social worker.

Had the nurse persisted after being told "no" and had the woman herself complained, those who criticize the nurse would have a case.

As it is, common sense has prevailed--as even Richard--who is totally against religion, it seems, admits.

I also am not in the slightest religious. But I believe in fair play.   Which this decision has--finally--given the nurse.

It's time for Mudcatters to accept this.

---

07 Feb 09 - 12:07 PM (#2560074)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ruth Archer

"Mudcat is a left-of center site politically.   This should be obvious."

Do ya think? Oh, so all those posts in praise of the Daily Mail, slagging off immigrants, and full of religious posturing ar IRONIC! Geez, I wish someone had told me!

---

07 Feb 09 - 02:33 PM (#2560196)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: The Borchester Echo

Mudcat left-of-centre?
Blimey.
Though I suppose it might depend on which bit of the US of A you're viewing it from.
There are vast tracts somewhat south of the Mason-Dixon line where it is commonly believed that Attila The Hun was a pioneer Trotskyist.
And, apparently, where drop-out missionaries rather than highly-trained graduates get appointed as social workers.
Makes me feel almost relieved that I live in Haringey.

---

07 Feb 09 - 03:09 PM (#2560228)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

Had the nurse persisted

Seems the nurse in question regards calling upon the selective supernatural intervention of a mythical omnipotent deity an essential aspect of her vocational duties and persists in promoting same. The following from guardian.co.uk:

A nurse was suspended after offering to pray for the recovery of an elderly patient, it emerged yesterday. Caroline Petrie, 45, was accused of failing to show a commitment to equality and diversity after the incident and is awaiting the outcome of a disciplinary hearing.

The community nurse, who lives in Weston-super-Mare and carries out home visits, has been suspended by North Somerset primary care trust and could lose her job. Petrie, a Baptist who has two children, said she had not forced her beliefs on anyone, but had simply asked if the woman would like a prayer said for her.

She said: "I'm not angry, and I understand if people don't believe in the way that I do. But I am upset because I enjoy this job and it [prayer] is a valuable part of the care I give.

"I became a Christian 10 years ago after my mother died. My faith got stronger and I realised God was doing amazing things in my life. I saw my patients suffering and as I believe in the power of prayer, I began asking them if they wanted me to pray for them. They are absolutely delighted."

She said she had seen her supplications have real effects on patients, including a Catholic woman whose urine infection cleared up days after she said a prayer.

Petrie said the incident that led to her suspension occurred after she visited a woman in Winscombe in December. She said she asked the woman: "Would you like me to pray for you?" after putting dressings on her legs. The woman replied "No, thank you", and Petrie insists she did not press the matter.

The woman, understood to be in her 70s, is believed to have told the trust about the incident. Petrie was challenged by her superiors.

Petrie said she had been reprimanded over her faith before, in October, when she gave a homemade prayer card to an elderly patient.

She said: "He was delighted with it, but his carer was not."

---

07 Feb 09 - 03:34 PM (#2560251)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Richard Bridge

FFS, Lizzie, read what I have posted before going off on one.

---

07 Feb 09 - 04:15 PM (#2560281)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

Well I said I wasn't going to contribute to this thread any longer, but the Jehova's Witness banging on my door this morning rather rattled me...
Anyone ever get interupted having breakfast, lazy morning sex, having a lovely bubble bath, or indeed during their morning meditations or prayers at the weekend by these 'nice', 'kind' and blindly patronising and intrusive folk?
Now if only they did Gnostic bath robes, or indeed kinky underwear, I'd bloody well invest in some!

No I don't hate Christians, I just hate proselytisation, by any fecking faith. But most especially via insidious backdoor methods with the elderly, lonely or vulnerable. It sucks, and is as cynical as it is despicable ad IMO immoral.

My fella, who is a practicioner of Zen Buddhism (which btw. has no sense of 'offense' to it's doctrine or founders, or any notion of 'blaphemy') told me today that there is broadly a guidance about 'proselytisation' with Buddhism. If someone who happens to knows you are a Buddhist, and so asks you about Buddhism, you politely change the subject three times. If they continue to ask, only then do you engage in discussion on the subject. There are many reasons why I find that approach admirable.

And for those interested, the nurse in question absolutley intends to continue her mission to heal and save people, check C4 News

Thank the Demiurge for the obvious healing powers of this womans prayer, I usually need to resort to antibiotics in order to swiftly resolve those kinds of inconvenient little infections!

---

07 Feb 09 - 05:05 PM (#2560319)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

As for religious canvassers...

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=115544&messages=126

---

07 Feb 09 - 05:20 PM (#2560332)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ruth Archer

They turned up at my door at about 10am on New Year's Day! I was still in me jim jams. I was like, "Is this about religion? Oh honey, no..."


New Year's Day! I ask you. I expect they got rather shorter shrift from some of my neighbours...

---

08 Feb 09 - 10:58 AM (#2560856)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

Yes, left of center.   Based on the views of people who post on Mudcat, if you count the individuals, not the posts, it is obvious.

Center of course includes the views of people outside Mudcat. The majority of whom, I would venture to say, would support the nurse.

And certainly heavily anti-religion.    Those who say outright they are religious are few--Joe, Georgian Silver, Slag--and not many more.

Some are reasonable about it--like Amos.   Many more can be described as rabidly anti-religion.

I would say that description fits anybody who criticizes the nurse who took "no" for an answer. There was no attempt as proselytizing.

And the legal aspects also support the nurse. As Richard points out, those who wanted to punish the nurse have no legal case.


Also if you want to allege that social workers and pastors think the nurse was wrong, you should also take into account the many descriptions by people who actually were in hospital for a serious operation---Kendall, Jan, and some others.

Even if not religious, these people did not feel in the slightest affronted or threatened by the offer to pray.

---

08 Feb 09 - 11:39 AM (#2560892)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

"...attempt at...."

---

08 Feb 09 - 11:42 AM (#2560896)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: The Borchester Echo

There is someone (maybe more) who is a Buddhist who posts on Mudcat. He never ever imposes his views on anyone unasked or unwanted.
Which is a lot more than you can say about flamin' Jehovah's Witnesses or assorted fundamentalists hanging about the "caring" professions to prey on (or at the very least harass) the vulnerable.
Or those sodding nuns who nearly scared me to death when I came round in hospital.

---

08 Feb 09 - 12:12 PM (#2560915)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Greg F.

Many more can be described as rabidly anti-religion

No. What they are is rabidly anti-people sticking their goddamn noses in where they aren't wanted and don't belong and/or attempting to foist their beliefs off on vulnerable people..

The religion issue is something else entirely.

---

08 Feb 09 - 02:18 PM (#2561035)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

Amen to that, Greg. Personally, I love religion (I must do, my favourite TV show right now is Around the World in 80 Faiths) it's just the righteous pomposity I can't hack.

---

08 Feb 09 - 04:12 PM (#2561127)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Micca

Most of my views on this are contained in the posts I have made in this thread but also many valid points referring to the "invasion of private space by unwanted religious people" is contained Right here, However, one point I have not seen (or maybe I missed it ) is the "Implied" "My God is better than your Goddess and therefore, because I have a hot line to the On High, I can save you/ease your pain/ help/ where you are powerless" This MAY not be what is meant but is how I perceive the offer "to pray for me" I am very disappointed that the Rules did not protect the vulnerable in this case but crumbled to the pressures and blackmail of the Christian pressure groups.
During my recent sojourn in the hospital with a potentially fatal condition I suggested (jokingly) that my friends in a local Coven filed in, in Black robes, with their hoods up and circled my bed chanting. Can you imagine the furore it would have caused, especially if we had offered to extend the "service" to the rest of the ward!!! I almost wish I had been crass and inconsiderate of others "religious sensitivity" and views to do it, But unfortunately I do belive that my religion is just that, "MY Religion" and therefore a private matter between me and the Goddess and I do NOT need strangers (of any religion) to intercede with Their Gods (in whom I may not only NOT believe but in whose methods and morals I may have serious misgivings) To Pray for me. On the other hand folks here on Mudcat that sent good messages of support are , in fact, friends offering very welcome support which I accept in any format(be it Christian, Wiccan,Buddhist, Baptist or whatever) The Difference (viva la difference)is that you all are my friends and are welcome ,very welcome ,in my life. I can also tell you that it (the Mudcat input) is indeed powerful and it WORKS!!

---

08 Feb 09 - 07:44 PM (#2561292)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere

Glad you're feeling better Micca! I have a close relative in hospital at the moment as well, and it's tough seeing someone so sick, you want to do all you can to help them.

Just one tiny thing though, speaking for myself anyway - you mentioned "My God is better than your Goddess and therefore, because I have a hot line to the On High, I can save you/ease your pain/ help/ where you are powerless"

Speaking for myself, that wouldn't be my motive in offering to pray for someone's physical recovery if I made such an offer. As for being powerless, I am just as powerless as the next person, regardless of who or what my 'god' is. I don't think any real Christian thinks of themselves as being any better than anyone else; I and quite a few that I know in fact seem to think the opposite, are sharply aware of how we don't measure up to the ideal we would like to.

I humbly suggest that as you said "This MAY not be what is meant but is how I perceive the offer "to pray for me"
In other words, it IS a perception rather than necessarily a fact. Earlier on I mentioned my reaction should a Wiccan offer to chant (is 'pray' the correct word? I forget - I did dabble many years ago, right up to setting up my own coven). In short the intention is important. If a Wiccan came in 'in good faith' so to speak, to do me a good turn by saying whatever incantation they thought beneficial, I would politely decline but thank them for their kind thoughts. I don't subscribe to their beliefs anymore but would be able to appreciate the kindness anyway.

On the other hand, should a Wiccan come in to chant over me for the primary purpose of 'showing off' or imposing on me (for want of a better way of explaining it) I think I would be able to detect the tone and would be less than pleased. Not so much with the Wiccan but with the manner in which things were being done. I would be just as unhappy if any Christian came in and prayed over my head in such a manner. I would just have to hope that God could make the best of a bad case in that latter situation!!

All I'm suggesting is to apply the same kind of discernment to whatever offers of help / prayer / chant are made to you, whatever the belief they spring from is. If you don't feel that someone is out to impose on you, a polite 'no thank you' goes a long way. If it falls on deaf ears, you can be more sure you're dealing with the 'pompous' kind!

---

08 Feb 09 - 08:12 PM (#2561304)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Rowan

When I was in the local post-surgery ward just before Christmas, a trio of schoolgirl violinists came in, set up their music stands and played some nice tunes. They told me the only one I didn't recognise was French, but all were Christmas carols; sans words and dancing, but carols all the same. They apparently had the approval of the authorities but were not supervised directly and I know for certain their audience contained some atheists.

Perhaps it's just as well they were celebrating rather than engaging in any other type of activity. BTW, they were very well received by all and sundry.

Cheers, Rowan

---

08 Feb 09 - 09:05 PM (#2561329)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

1) The nurse did not "stick her nose" where it was not wanted.   That's the case in point. She took "no" for an answer. It was reasonable for her to ask the question. Often the answer she probably gets is "yes".

And as Richard has pointed out, there is no legal case against her.


Any reference to people knocking on doors trying to convert the poster is a classic red herring. And tends to support the idea that the poster is rabidly anti-religion. Reasonable people should realize that sort of visit is the price you pay for living in the West--and maybe elsewhere.   And take it in stride.   It probably happens to most Mudcatters--and most do not have the sort of exaggerated reaction of the poster--unless there is something earlier in life which influences the reaction.

There is in fact no reason the nurse should ever have become an issue.

2)    There is one Mudcatter who ascribes all the ills of the world to religion--those that are not due to Mexicans.

3)   Where it is not considered good form to mock people on ethnic or sexual proclivity grounds--nor should it be--it is considered good fun on Mudcat to constantly mock the religious.   

4)   Virtually none of the anti-religion Mudcatters--of which there are many---acknowledge any good done by religion or religious people. These Mudcatters seem to have a special ax to grind against Christians. An amazing number of Mudcatters refuse to see that the "harm done by religion" is in fact done by abuse of religion.

If this is not so, let's see some acknowledgment of the good some religion--Christianity even-- has done--from some of the people who criticized the nurse.



As I pointed out earlier, it's certainly good that most of the fervently anti-religion Mudcatters are not from the US---since it's that attitude which dramatically strengthened the rabid Right in the US--and likely made the difference in the 2004 election. In the UK it has nowhere near as serious consequences.

---

09 Feb 09 - 05:22 AM (#2561496)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: The Borchester Echo

Religious nutters and those who want me to switch energy supplier get exactly the same short shrift if they come to the door:

Fuck off and close the gate after you.

Absolutely no discrimination.

---

09 Feb 09 - 05:27 AM (#2561502)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Will Fly

Ron Davies:
It was reasonable for her to ask the question.

With respect, Ron - that's the whole crux of the argument. In my view, it wasn't. Just my ten-pennorth.

---

09 Feb 09 - 01:48 PM (#2561919)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere

Diane, whoah! Easy there! Even if your new prospective energy supplier is offering you cheaper, cleaner energy?

---

09 Feb 09 - 02:15 PM (#2561953)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver

Diane doesn't care... she just loves being nasty to people... look at some of the threads she has contributed to...... love you Diane LOL....she has her own kind of energy anyway!!!!

---

09 Feb 09 - 03:10 PM (#2562029)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: The Borchester Echo

The very next time a pair (aren't they always in duplicate) of those proselytising halfwits ventures up my path, I shall order a lorryload of War Cries, Watchtowers and bibles for the woodburner. That should help reduce the fuel bills.

In fact they could extend this delivery service to any sick and needy people that are supposed to be caring for. Infinitely more useful than stuffing their heads with threats of hellfire and damnation unless they sign up for "the true path".

---

09 Feb 09 - 03:23 PM (#2562048)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver

Is that El Teds true path... flamenco? LOL

---

09 Feb 09 - 11:52 PM (#2562409)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

It was reasonable for the nurse to ask the question because some people derive comfort from prayer and would welcome it. And if not, they can always decline. No harm done--except in the overheated imaginations of some Mudcatters. In fact the woman in question was not put out by the request.

It seems that very few people are. Certainly not most of the people who have actually had serious health problems.

Actually it appears that the only ones who are offended and shocked by the shear effrontery of such a question are, for instance, charmers whose normal greeting for unexpected visitors is "Fuck off" .

Wonderful role models for us all, it's true.

---

09 Feb 09 - 11:58 PM (#2562413)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wysiwyg

I think my favorite post about this was the one where doorbell ringers got blamed for interrupting sex. I don't even know if it was this thread or the other one, but if the sex ain't great enough to ignore the doorbell, that ain't the visitors' fault! :~)

It's a basic healthy-boundary issue-- if someone rings your bell and you do not want company, YOU DON'T HAVE TO ANSWER THE BELL. If someone asks if you want them to pray, and you don't, YOU JUST TELL THEM.

And then, unless your boundaries aren't too healthy yet, you let it go! :~)

Repeat after me: An offer to pray is not an offer to burn one at the stake! OK people?!?!

~S~

---

10 Feb 09 - 05:36 AM (#2562503)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

An offer to pray is not an offer to burn one at the stake! OK people?!?!

An offer to pray represents a very real violation of another persons right to diversity and dignity. That this violation was not only committed by a health worker but in the home of patient amounts to a serious abuse of a professional privilege in the place where a person really ought to feel at their safest. To quote from Guardian.co.uk:

Petrie, a Baptist..., said she had not forced her beliefs on anyone, but had simply asked if the woman would like a prayer said for her. She said: "I'm not angry, and I understand if people don't believe in the way that I do. But I am upset because I enjoy this job and it [prayer] is a valuable part of the care I give.

How can the leaving of prayer cards and offering to prayer be anything other than a forcing of beliefs? Especially as, by her admission, Ms Petrie regards such supernatural mumbo-jumbo as an important part of her job - indeed, this is not the first time she has been disciplined in this respect. That she has been since reinstated seems a fair indication that, as has been suggested elsewhere on this thread, things are very rotten, or else very desperate, somewhere.

For further reading I suggest the NMC Code of Conduct which this person is duty bound to abide by however so inconvenient it might be to her Christian mission.

---

10 Feb 09 - 07:06 AM (#2562559)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

"....sheer effrontery..."   My instincts let me down. Mea culpa.

---

10 Feb 09 - 07:11 AM (#2562565)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

Some people may find this interesting. Apparantly evangelists actually see prayer on behalf of others, as a fundamental aspect of their mission to convert.

Evangelism and Prayer

In fact I was looking for material on the role of 'healing' prayer in evangelical Christianity. But I just kept finding pages about the importance of praying for people in order to convert them...

And for those who still believe that 'just a prayer' is quite innocent, and in no way an isidious, underhanded tactic for promoting their evangelical mission to convert others, an interesting quote from Rev. Cory Kloth in Meshereth Magazine, might be illuminating:

Methods of Evangelism

I'm with Diane on this, I don't like hawkers of any kind of unsolicited tat knocking on my door. I think I'm going to put up one of those 'No Hawkers' type messages.

---

10 Feb 09 - 08:36 AM (#2562644)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

A new case has arisen.
A foster mother has been struck off the register because she is an Anglican and a teenage fosterchild has converted from Islam to Chritianity.
The woman insists that she did not encourage the girl.
I do not believe there would be an issue if a christian child took up Islam.

---

10 Feb 09 - 08:41 AM (#2562648)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Greg F.

You may not believe it, but thousands would.

---

10 Feb 09 - 08:58 AM (#2562659)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

"An offer to pray represents a very real violation of another persons right to diversity and dignity. That this violation was not only committed by a health worker but in the home of patient amounts to a serious abuse of a professional privilege in the place where a person really ought to feel at their safest."


You know, the world is kinda falling to pieces at present. Perhaps it's falling to pieces because everyone has become so damned introspective and up their own arses about things which TRULY do NOT matter, that those with other agendas have crept in and taken so much of what we once had in this world.

It's clever. You create a society where basically no one trusts anyone else anymore, you make them imagine ulterior motives in absolutely everything, everywhere, create an Age of Suspicion...and guess what?   Not a soul notices or cares very much when planes get blown up, or banks run out of money, or we bail them out whilst they pay themselves millions in bonuses, or people are starving to death on one side of the planet, whilst dying from over-eating on the other, whilst children go into schools with guns and mow each other down, whilst a whole generation of young people become alcoholics, whilst our young girls have turned into hookers...

Nope...it's FAR more important to discuss ad infinitum the (apparently) 'true EVILS' of a an 'EVIL' woman who dressed up in Nurse's clothing to deliver her 'hidden agenda' of terrifying old people in their own homes, holding them ransom until they read that damned prayer card and signed on the dotted line, so that she could report back to Headquarters that another Convert had been found...

Geez, people! Get your heads out of your arses and open your eyes to what REALLY matters in this world and see what PC has done to your minds and to the world in general!

Try creating an Age of Trust and leave your Age of Suspicion far behind.

---

10 Feb 09 - 09:01 AM (#2562661)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jean(eanjay)

The foster mother mentioned by Keith A of Hertford has been banned by her local council for failing to prevent the teenager from getting baptised, she has lost her home and another child she fosters has been taken back into care - what a mess!

---

10 Feb 09 - 09:07 AM (#2562667)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jean(eanjay)

here

---

11 Feb 09 - 04:21 AM (#2563576)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

"Unfortunately, it doesn't speak well for the poster that he has such a crabbed, blinkered, cynical view of human nature as to describe normal kindness as a "violation". I'm sorry he had such a wretched childhood."

This is a really uneccesarry descent into irrational and unfounded personal attack on this thread. Again!

Anyway as to "crabbed, cynical views" of intentionally cynical evangelical Christian methods of evangelism (as opposed to normal non-cultish human behaviour) and those who should not be allowed to indulge such underhand methods with the vulnerable, here's that quote referred to below, offering practical guidance on how to go about converting mentally vulnerable people, by getting close to them and pretending to be their friend:

"Rev. Cory Kloth, writing about "Methods of Evangelism" for Meshereth Magazine:

    [E]vangelism takes place through personal relationship. ... Every relationship that God puts us in should be geared toward sharing the gospel. ... Let me give an example of how this works in extended relationships: when I was in seminary, working as a chemist while going to school, I had a co-worker who had experienced severe emotional trauma in his life. I met him and found out quickly that he loved NASCAR. Now, I could care less about NASCAR, but I became fluent in the subject so that avenues of communication would be open (avenues that I would then use to share the Gospel over time). I was in constant prayer for this fellow, praying specifically that God would convert him before I finished seminary, and He was gracious enough to do so. This example is just one of many ways how we can "become all things to all men." "

Evangelical Christians (unlike most faiths) are expected to convert. And yes, I'm cynical. They target the vulnerable, the depressed, the lonely and the elderly as easy pickings. I've seen it happen with people who are mentally ill, in hospital after a drugs overdose when a boyfriend left them for example. Who after receiving visits while they are in a weak state of mine, come out 'saved'.

And for the record (again), I myself am not rabidly anti-religion or anti-Christianity. I find much of both interest, inspiration and beauty in say, the writings of Christian Mystics and Saints (as well as the Tantras and Vedas, the poetry of Rumi, the Gnostic Gospels etc.) including works like 'The Cloud of Unknowing', or Meister Eckharts 'Treatises and Sermons', or 'In Imitation of Christ' by Thomas a Kempis, or Bunyans 'The Pilgrims Progress', 'Revelations of Divine Love' by Julian of Norwich and on it goes... And I will take a wild random guess, that the "blind, rabidly anti-religion" poster with the tragic childhood, is no doubt better studied in classic literature of similar kind, than most blind dogmatic evangelical types would ever wish to be.

PS Richard Bridge, I think you've got a fan club forming here... ;-)

---

11 Feb 09 - 04:23 AM (#2563578)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

My last post crossed paths with IB's below. But I too found those personal comments innapropriate. Along with prior ones directed at another poster earlier down the thread. Who has since not contributed...

---

11 Feb 09 - 01:11 PM (#2564025)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere

Regarding the foster mother, it seems to me that a main problem is the tendency to apply laws rather literally. What I mean by that is, that thanks to moral and post-modern relativism, it has become impossible to apply rules on the basis of what used to be termed 'common sense' and lateral thinking.

Unable to discriminate, those in authority seem to have no choice but apply rules as if they were unthinking automatons, which means invariably there will be absurd judgements made in cases where the rules - and human wisdom - did not anticipate every last eventuality. And where we do try and anticipate such things, it leads to a morass of laws and 'principles' that often contradict or clash with each other. To me, it seems a classic case of living by the letter of the law rather than by the spirit of the law.

There's a very good example of this in the New Testament where the pharisees (who were also responsible for enforcing the dozens of rules and regulations that emanated from the Mosaic law and Deuteronomy) got very cross with Jesus because he healed a blind man on the Sabbath. The rules stated clearly that no work was to be done on the Sabbath, and healing was considered to be work.

They couldn't see the charity that had been performed, they just had a kind of slavish obedience to 'the rules' - rules which after all, had been created in the first place because humanity was finding it so difficult to get a handle on the more holistic principles that underpinned them.

In otherwords, if humanity can't regulate itself through awareness of and voluntary adherence to the basic charitable spirit it is going to need specific rules and sub-rules and sub-sections of sub-rules spelled out and codified.

Afterall we wouldn't really even need rules if everyone voluntarily adhered to the guiding principle 'love your neighbour as yourself' [there was another, critically important part to that guiding principle that I won't post here out of deference to all other 'Catters, but anyone who wants to know what it is can PM me)

The poor unfortunate man would have had to come back another day because the rules said so and 'the office was closed'.

(Discrimination, despite the negative connotations this word seems to have acquired, is not always a bad thing: e.g we discriminate between mushrooms that are safe to eat and those that are not and would be foolish to do otherwise)

---

11 Feb 09 - 04:25 PM (#2564278)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

Nickhere, I do not take issue that we are in a most unfortunate and unpleasant predicament concerning our better natures, and our perfectly right and natural human inclination to wish to think the best of kind, generous and neighbourly gestures.

I think what makes certain areas where we might otherwise be guided by natural inclination or if you will 'common sense' so immensely difficult and therefore requiring legislation and strict guidelines, is where we have knowledge from experience and evidence, that certain individuals and groups (some of which are religious) knowingly and consciously use those innocent human feelings against us, in order to cynically further their own agenda.

Personally I don't care whether it's a life insurance salesman pressuring a conscientious husband, a 'timeshare' crook targeting an elderly couples pension fund, a double glazing salesman who won't leave till a young Mum signs his form, or an evangelical Christian who is 'kindly' offers to pray for you... They've all been to the same seminar on how to hoodwink and decieve people, how to get their foot into the door and then how to maximise their leverage over you by making the most of your gullabillity. It's all the same cynical abuse of good nature and our unguarded better instincts.

In fact I agree with Ron Davis below, much as I am not a fan of some of his other comments. It's not 'religion' per se that is at fault, but the abuse of religion. And it's the cynical agendas of a minority of Christians, who take advantage of our 'common sense' instincts, who give Christianity and Christians a bad bloody name IMO.

---

11 Feb 09 - 04:45 PM (#2564299)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

In fact it's horrible that some Christian groups by their cynical abuse of good nature, and our faith in the image of 'the good Christian' should sully what is indeed a highly good thing.

I recall recieving a shock one day at work some years ago, and leaving in distress. I recall crying, alone on a street pavement as busy traffic whizzed past...

To my surprise a genuinely well meaning lady stopped and asked in concern if I was alright.
We chatted, I calmed down and regained my composure.
She never said it, but I could tell full well by her entire manner that she was a genuine Christian (noun) - by her christian (adjective) behaviour... With or without the little gold crucifix that she also happened to be wearing.

"Christian is as christian does", with or without a big C, and I believe preferably without cynically veiled techniques of evangelism.

---

11 Feb 09 - 06:45 PM (#2564405)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere

Yes, I agree, Sleepy Rosie.

Manipulative and cynical behaviour is just that, whoever does it to us. Far and away the biggest offenders in this regard have to be advertisers and the whole advertising industry. One of my favourite lines from John Berger's "Ways of Seeing" is "advertising steals a woman's love of her herself and sells it back to her for the price of the product"

I suppose some of the evangelical Christians are so convinced of the rightness of their cause and the urgency for doing it, that they forget people need to approach God freely, "without a gun to their heads". That, and of course, the unscrupulous ones who've used evangelism and people's gullibility to rake in a fortune and live it up in style.

I believe these are actually in the minority but their actions are so flabbergasting when exposed that we overlook all the 'normal' Christians quietly beavering away at their thing.

And you'll find charlatans like the money-evangelists in all areas of spirituality and religion - for exampe, pick up any occult review magazine and there are pages and pages of ads promising you love, money, the world, the AMAZING secret of the SECRET stone of GOBBLEDIGOOK, yours for only 9.99 dollars! As well as spurious fortune tellers that will advise you on your life over the phone (they don't even need to meet you in person and the cheque can be sent through the post / we accept VISA etc.,) but won't be round to bail you out when their 'advice' (most of which consists of what are called Barnum statements such as you find on personality tests e.g "you have a deep desire to help people" / "you may be feeling under pressure concerning a person in a position of authority" / "a problem shared is a problem halved") goes horribly wrong.

I've had some personal experience of the above.


For more see -

The Psychobabble link

---

11 Feb 09 - 10:08 PM (#2564554)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

As long as we can all agree the decision on the nurse, as I've said before, was a victory for common sense. My point on the poster's childhood--which I of course know nothing about---was that my assertion had as much validity as his that an offer of prayer is a "violation" of anything. Neither assertion has any validity whatsoever.

---

12 Feb 09 - 04:00 AM (#2564674)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Rapunzel

As long as we can all agree

why should we all agree with you - it's one opinion and we should all be entitled to our own.

For myself, I am a nurse who visits people in their own homes for chronic disease management(not a district nurse). I have also in the past done a degree in theology and worked for awhile at a benedictine monastery. I have my own opinions on the matter, formed by my past and present experience and the terms and conditions of my current employment, but I've followed this thread carefully and although tempted to pass comment I feel now to dare to do so would result in a backlash of personal attack which I could just not deal with.

My point on the poster's childhood--which I of course know nothing about---was that my assertion had as much validity as his that an offer of prayer is a "violation" of anything. Neither assertion has any validity whatsoever.

the difference is, one is an opinion and the other is a direct and nasty personal attack (about something you admittedly know nothing about).

---

12 Feb 09 - 06:09 AM (#2564734)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

"we overlook all the 'normal' Christians quietly beavering away at their thing."

Yes, and the reason that we don't hear all the time about Christians doing thier thing. Is because they don't brag about it, or make a song and dance about it. Like Ruth Archers Vicar below, who made sure that she had some groceries in the house, and that she had sufficient arrangements to collect her daughter from school. No strings.

Charity is charity, it's a gift given freely, without expectation of any form of reward or personal recognition.
In *theory* 'christian' charitable behaviour (at least to me) implies that there are no strings attatched, no personal or even religious agendas being furthered and ideally no egos being inflated.

In the instance of this nurse, I noted how pleased she was at seeing what she believed to be evidence of the healing power of her prayer. Now the subtext I read in both the unsolicited offer of praying for people in the first place, and then telling everyone about when it 'worked', is that you are implying that you have the spiritual power to succesfully intercess on their behalf (assuming something of a "Priestly" function in relation to others I feel therefore). Now amongst *peers* within the same religion, that's not my business. But in the case of unsolicited offers of prayer from a professional to an otherwise non religious person, you are placing yourself in subtle but psychologically powerful position of authority.

Now these may be subtle things, but I feel they are important ones.

So here's my cynical take on how the conversion goes:

Nice nurse enters elderly lady's home to change her dressings.
She kindly offers to pray for her on her way out.
Elderly lady (who may well be lonely) is delighted at such a kind gesture.
Her bed sores (or whatever), are improved the next time the nurse visits!
They are both very impressed and chat about how great it is.
See how wonderful prayer can be!
Of course it's got nothing at all to do with me, say's 'humble' nurse, it's all in Gods hands! Ain't he just the greatest guy!?
The nice nurse leaves some literature on her wonderful form of Christianity for the elderly lady to read...

---

12 Feb 09 - 11:39 AM (#2564984)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere

Sleepy Rosie, I'm not nurse Petrie, so I don't know what her exact intentions were other than what she says. Of course, she may have a hidden agenda we know nothing about and that she has lied about - either through commission or omission.

As for having the spiritual power to intercede, perhaps. It's possible some Christians believe this, and perhaps nurse Petrie believes this to. But 1) this idea is not limited to Christianity - you'll find similar ideas among believers in many religions, and I have found it in Wicca as well, the idea that the high priest or indeed coven could alter the course of nature on behalf of themselves or others. 2) If I have understood your post correctly, you are saying that for a person to claim, or believe, they have some kind of intercessory powers with the Divine / spirit world, is a bad thing. I would argue that it is not, a priori, a bad thing. It would depend on what end that intercession was put to. If put to good, we might be glad of the intercession. For example, I doubt there is anyone here on Mudcat who would not be glad of a kindly word in our favour in the judge's ear from someone whose opinion the judge respects, before our trial if we were unfortunate enough to be in trouble with the law.


And so with nature - if someone could cure me of my physical ills through a formula of words and without any monetary cost to myself, I'd be foolish to turn it down.

But there's another issue as well. Your 'cynical take on how the conversation goes' basically implies or states that there is a kind of charlatanism at work in nurse Petrie. In your account the nurse gives normal medical attention, says a prayer, nature takes it course, the sores get better - 'lo and behold!' says nurse Petrie - 'prayer works!!'

I don't see that that was what nurse Petrie was trying to do. And supposing she was, what would be the motive? If she is a charlatan, and knows she is, and that the prayer does nothing but is humbug, what would be the point in 'converting' someone to a set of beliefs you yourself know to be bogus? If there was some monetary gain, it might be possible to explain, but there is no hint in the Petrie case that she was after money. Fame? Perhaps, but how long would her methods stand up under scrutiny before she was unmasked? The only other conclusion is that she is either sincere or mad.

Moreover, I think we would be underestimating the intelligence of the average person if we were to say that one could not discern between the normal slow process of healing and sudden inexplicable 'miraculous' cures.

BTW, my late aunt was one of those quiet Christians beavering away, she was a joy to all who knew her and one of the nicest people you could meet (though she had her small faults like all of us, she was not a saint either!). Though she was not rich in money she was a living example of charitable word and deed, and no one ever left her house hungry, thirsty or cold. Sometimes I wish I could be even just a bit more like her.

On the other hand she never hid the fact of her christianity anymore than she hid the fact that she was on her way to mass or about to say her rosary. She didn't boast about it or anything, she just regarded it as a normal everyday part of her life, as normal as waking and eating or going out to get a few logs for the fire. She would have been very surprised if anyone had told her she shouldn't mention that she was on her way into town to go to mass or whatever. She would have asked "why not?" and would have considered it as odd as hiding the fact you were on your way to pick your car up at the garage.

---

12 Feb 09 - 09:07 PM (#2565515)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

I would say that claiming that an offer to pray is a "violation" of anything is a rather nasty assault, with no basis whatsoever, on huge numbers of people. But don't worry, I don't expect agreement--especially from Mudcatters, many of whom have indeed shown clear signs of a rabid anti-religion attitude.

And as I've said, I'm not religious in the least.

---

13 Feb 09 - 02:45 AM (#2565660)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe

Ron - Mr Beard's comment was not an assault - it was an opinion. Your comment about Beard's childhood is pretty close to being an ad hominem attack. If you can't tell the difference, that's a bit of a worry.

---

13 Feb 09 - 06:03 AM (#2565741)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

A number of key points in your last post Nickhere, that I differ with.
I'll reply properly later, when I've got more time to respond in better detail.

---

13 Feb 09 - 09:45 AM (#2565882)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Greg F.

... Mudcatters, many of whom have indeed shown clear signs of a rabid anti-religion attitude.

One more time, Ron:

No. What they are is rabidly anti-people sticking their goddamn noses in where they aren't wanted and don't belong and/or attempting to foist their beliefs off on vulnerable people..

The religion issue is something else entirely.

---

13 Feb 09 - 12:43 PM (#2566075)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Musket

Wow! This thread still going at it hammer and tongue?

I have been away for a few days. Thought this would have been dead and dusted.

Mind you, to be fair, we appear to have left the original thread and started another one, this time about religion. I suppose that is a thread with no loose end, and no hard end either.

Just to bring us back to the point.. A nurse was admitted into patients homes, exceeded her duties and has promised to stick to her duty of providing healthcare from now on.

On a Sunday, she sings hymns.

Life goes on.

---

13 Feb 09 - 02:29 PM (#2566136)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie

There are/were at least three other areas where proselytizing are regularly present, without much comment.

1. In hotels/motels you will find the Gideon Bible.

2. When you drop a contribution in your holiday Salvation Army bucket.

3. I don't know if they still do it but on Alaska Airlines I have found a Bible verse and prayer on my food tray.

---

13 Feb 09 - 02:33 PM (#2566139)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L

What about people standing on street corners haranguing you for eating meat or wearing leather.

---

13 Feb 09 - 03:03 PM (#2566166)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John MacKenzie

It's not against the law to have an imaginary friend!

---

15 Feb 09 - 10:27 AM (#2567447)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

OK, fine. First of all, it wouldn't bother me in the least to have somebody who knows nothing about me speculate I had a lousy childhood--since I know that not to be the case.

And we'll also say that no Mudcatters are rabidly anti-Christian. Then you'll have no trouble in complying with my request of several posts ago to cite various good things Christians and Christianity have done. This is a pathetically easy task--for anybody with any objectivity.

Unless of course it's too painful to admit Christianity has done and continues to do good. And if by some chance it is too painful, then we'll know the answer to the question on "rabidly anti-Christian"--since some Mudcatters are a veritable cornucopia of information on the alleged wrongs Christianity has committed.

---

15 Feb 09 - 11:10 AM (#2567478)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver

John Mc... Just because you personally haven't encountered someone... doesn't mean they are imaginary!!!

---

15 Feb 09 - 11:16 AM (#2567481)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L

Of course if more christians talked less and actually tried to live the life more the folk in here who have had bad experiences probably wouldnt have had them and would be more willing to live and let live.

---

15 Feb 09 - 11:22 AM (#2567488)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John MacKenzie

We must agree to differ there Mike. I'm sure you would no more wish to impose your beliefs on me, than I would mine, on you.

---

15 Feb 09 - 12:17 PM (#2567545)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver

Not necessarily talking 'religion' there John... it was carefully worded not to..... someone....???

---

16 Feb 09 - 12:25 PM (#2568299)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

Still having a hard time listing good things Christianity and Christians have done, it seems.

Mudcatters not anti-religion, especially anti-Christian?   Of course not, perish the thought. It's just that all the people so willing to criticize the nurse now have broken computers so they can't possibly get on to tell us about accomplishments of Christians.   Not that they were traumatized as children by being forced to go to Chapel for years, or anything similar. No indeed.

Well, I'll help you a bit. Can only tell you about the US situation, mostly, though I suspect somebody can tell you about the UK.


1)   The US civil rights movement--from abolitionism through the 60's and beyond is heavily grounded in Christianity.   In the UK you may be familiar with Wilberforce; in the US virtually the entire abolitionist movement right through Rev Martin Luther King--and since.

2) In the Katrina disaster, Christian groups were far more effective--and quicker--at offering and carrying out assistance than governmental groups, partly since they were already at the scene.

3) For folkies, I would think gospel music, both black and white, might have some appeal. Totally impossible without Christianity.

4) Christian churches offer help to people all over the world caught in various disasters. The days of, for instance, of forcing people to listen to sermons before getting something to eat, as at the time of the Famine, are long gone--this aid is given unconditionally.

That's just a start.

Whereas the most people killed in the history of the world were killed by atheists---Hitler, Stalin and Mao. If anybody cares to assert Hitler was a Christian, you will need some proof. Just his stating God had saved him from the 20 July plot, for instance, is no proof--just the raving of a progressively unstable dictator.

And do non-atheists therefore think all atheists are evil?   That's absurd.   But some Mudcat atheists seem to have no problem lumping all Christians together as destructive bigots.

It sometimes seems these atheists--some, not all, either can't or won't think.   Some, like Bill D, and Amos, do. Plenty more do not.

---

16 Feb 09 - 01:08 PM (#2568346)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

Nickhere,

Apologies for not responding as promised.
I did begin to compose a reply to your last post.
But after having seen some of the personally directed comments stuck up on this thread recently, I'm content to leave us 'agreeing to disagree!'

Cheers, Rosie :-)

---

16 Feb 09 - 02:11 PM (#2568413)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

Nurse praying: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izOPM5keD6w

---

16 Feb 09 - 02:26 PM (#2568423)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Nickhere

Um, Ok, Sleepie Roise. You can always PM me if you prefer.

---

16 Feb 09 - 02:58 PM (#2568456)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

Ok.

---

24 Feb 09 - 11:32 AM (#2574729)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Marion

If anyone wants to hear from a lot of nurses on this incident, there's a thread about it at allnurses.com : thread about suspensions for prayer offer. It's a very long thread, but is broken up into sections so it shouldn't take too long to load.

I'm an RN myself. My opinion is that it wasn't appropriate for the nurse to offer to pray, but that suspending her for it is a little excessive (unless there's a lot more history than we know).   There are nursing shortages everywhere, and we can't afford to be losing people from "the bedside" over problems that could be solved with some sort of remedial education.

Marion

---

24 Feb 09 - 03:18 PM (#2574911)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P

Ron,
I'm not getting what you are trying to do. Are you saying that people are anti-Christian because they don't think a nurse, who has been told not to, offers to pray for a patient? Are you saying that folks have to come up with positive things to say about Christians, which really doesn't have anything to do with this discussion, or they are anti-Christian?

Of course lots of Christians are good people who do good things. So?

Of course there are lots of bad Christians.

Of course there are a lot of good non-Christians, and bad ones too. So?

Are you one of those people who think Christians are being discriminated against if they are told they can't practice their religion at any time they want, in any situation, no matter who else is there?

---

24 Feb 09 - 11:38 PM (#2575280)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

It just would be nice if some of the atheists around here would see their way clear to actually admitting specific positive aspects of Christians and Christianity.

So far, it doesn't appear likely any time soon.

Some are sensible--like Bill D and Amos.   But there seem to be quite a few who have stood the Monty Python warning on its head. For them it's:   "You always expect the Spanish Inquisition". Even in an offer of prayer by a nurse.

Even the fact that the issue has been resolved in the nurse's favor does not stop their dark mutterings about "violation"--showing lively imagination but little else.

And as I've said more than once, I'm not in the least religious---but the imbalance around here is striking, to say the least.

---

25 Feb 09 - 03:24 AM (#2575348)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

I atttend a Cof E parish church.
I know people from that small congregation who have worked in third world countries. Aid work not prosletising.
My partner is a member of a Methodist chapel. One family and one individual there have done the same.
How many atheiists do you come across who do this.
Check out the people running the big international NGO aid agencies.
Overwhelmingly Christian.
We may all be deluded fools, but you should celebrate our delusion because the world would be poorer without it.

---

25 Feb 09 - 04:14 AM (#2575357)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L

---

25 Feb 09 - 04:15 AM (#2575359)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L

Drat hit the wrong button. I wouldnt bother asking for an explanation if i were you aggie the ways of the cat are mysterious and certainly idiosyncratic.

---

25 Feb 09 - 08:50 AM (#2575465)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Greg F.

How many atheiists[sic] do you come across who do this.

Quite a few, actually. You don't need to have an imaginary friend to do good works.

And you'll find, worldwide, vastly more non-christians than christians doing good works.

None of this is anti-christian- but by the same token christians shouldn't get a free pass.

---

25 Feb 09 - 01:06 PM (#2575672)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell

God bless you

---

25 Feb 09 - 01:07 PM (#2575675)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie

I have a problem with equating 'good people' with Christian. I remember a retirement village where my brother in law was the superintendent of construction. He and my sister took me over to see the impressive campus. My sister said, feelingly, 'And only Christians are allowed to live here.'

I said, 'You mean, no Jews?'

She said, 'You know, I hadn't thought of that. My guess is that they mean, only people who profess a spiritual lifestyle.'

Greg F, you say that 'worldwide you'll find vastly more non-Christians than Christiasn doing good'. How do you come about that information? I should think that atheists don't group together to accomplish things the way that Christians do. For one thing, how does one contact an atheist?

'Secular', on the other hand, may well draw any and all camps.

---

25 Feb 09 - 01:09 PM (#2575678)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell

Before I became a Christian I have always asked Christians this question if you can't make somthing out of nothing then who made God!
I know that exists but I still have that annoying question an as yet now one has answered me they change the subject.

---

25 Feb 09 - 01:10 PM (#2575679)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c

Ebbie - I think that Greg may be referring to the fact that their are other religions than Christians out there doing good works. It isn't something that only Christians do.

---

25 Feb 09 - 01:41 PM (#2575700)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Aggie Nostic

Good People do good things.
Christians and other religions do not hold a monopoly
on good work and charity.

---

25 Feb 09 - 02:36 PM (#2575741)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Riginslinger

Good people do good things.
Other people go to church.

---

25 Feb 09 - 03:55 PM (#2575809)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Wesley S

Rig - You are as narrow minded as the fundimentalists you despise. You know that don't you?

---

25 Feb 09 - 09:30 PM (#2576118)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

Nobody has a monopoly on virtue.   Nor on aggressive bigotry---though some of the atheists around here have brainwashed themselves into thinking that all Christians are narrow-minded dolts.

To find this creature, some of the atheists might want to look in the mirror.

---

26 Feb 09 - 03:40 AM (#2576197)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

I know well by experience that people of no faith do good works, and that many who profess faith are found wanting,
but
in the real world the real people working with the poor and dispossessed in third world countries and western inner cities are overwhelmingly and disproportionately Christian.
Go see.

---

26 Feb 09 - 03:49 AM (#2576199)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L

Matthew 6:3
But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,

---

26 Feb 09 - 08:39 AM (#2576308)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c

Well put Megan.

---

26 Feb 09 - 11:34 PM (#2576970)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

So after patting yourselves on the back for supposedly exposing Christian hypocrisy, perhaps you can tell us where the funds and other assistance which now come from Christian groups would come from in the ideal world some atheists envision---one without Christianity.

Or perhaps some atheists may have their own hypocrisy exposed.

---

27 Feb 09 - 03:05 AM (#2577010)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L

That shows how little you know about the people who post here you silly boy.

---

27 Feb 09 - 07:53 AM (#2577127)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

I would agree that some of our more aggressive atheists might possibly not take kindly to having their own hypocrisy exposed. Just a guess.

---

27 Feb 09 - 08:05 AM (#2577130)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L

So you know for certain who is an athiest or anything else him here man yer awfy clever. ye should bottle it an mak yer fortune

---

27 Feb 09 - 08:12 AM (#2577140)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c

Are you saying, Ron, that only Christians are charitable? There are many other religions in this world doing good for others and, I dare say, many non Christians who give their share of cash and time to help those less fortunate.

I just get a little tired of anybody, regardless of their religion or lack of it, telling what they do and how good they are being, doing it. If I make some sort of charitable move it is satisfaction enough to know that I have done it - it doesn't get broadcast around to show what a good person I am.

Read the parable of the Widow's Mite.

---

27 Feb 09 - 08:19 AM (#2577146)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Backwoodsman

I think the point Ron's making is that there is a lot of good work done by Christians, jacqui, that would be missed if they weren't around to do it - not that the only people who do good works are Christians. That's how I read him.

There are many good people, of every religion and none. Just as there are bad people, of every religion and none. Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on Good or Bad. IMHO, of course!

Cheers M'dears!

---

27 Feb 09 - 08:53 AM (#2577168)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jacqui, I agree with you that we just do not know of all the good that so many secret Samaritans do.
Where Christians would be missed is in the field of voluntary work.
Many , like me, do little or nothing but certainly the big organisations, even the secular ones, are mainly staffed and run by people who would call themselves christians.E.g. Oxfam, Save The Children, Red Cross, Tear Fund, Salvation Army, Christian Aid....

---

27 Feb 09 - 09:37 AM (#2577200)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

The study focused on Lesotho and Zambia, which had HIV prevalence rates of 23.2% and 17% respectively in 2005. It found that Christian hospitals and health centres are providing about 40% of HIV care and treatment services in Lesotho and almost a third of the HIV/AIDS treatment facilities in Zambia are run by FBOs.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/notes/2007/np05/en/index.html
While popularly held beliefs--and characterizations by US government officials--proport that many churches/temples/synagogues/mosques/etc. and faith-based organizations give money internationally, studies and news reports found that the overwhelming majority of religious-based international aid is Christian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith-based_foreign_aid

---

27 Feb 09 - 09:01 PM (#2577567)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,strummer

Was she suspended for praying or for imposing her beliefs on people who didn't want to hear them? It's not the same thing at all.

---

27 Feb 09 - 10:34 PM (#2577603)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D

Oh, fer Pete's sake....since I have been called 'sensible'...('bout time!)...let me say: Of course good, worthwhile things have been done by Christian and Christian organizations.

Now, what I really wonder is: would people have done those things without the pressure of religious imperative to spur them to action? Aren't some needs so obvious that things like 'food for the hungry' and 'care of the lepers' and other charities would be seen whether in thename of 'X' or not?

What religions provide is organization. I have personally seen (in Kansas), Mennonite groups be the first on the scene after tornados...helping in rescues, feeding folks and helping strangers rebuild. And, let me add...they did this with NO preaching... they just helped and went home. Sure...there are aspects of their faith that help focus their attitude TO such good deeds, but I 'tend' to feel that these are people who would have that basic attitude anyway, and would have been a part of some other group...as the father of a friend of mine was a member of the local Civil Defense organization, and was often working beside the Mennonites!

   I give credit to ANYONE who sets aside time to do good, and who contributes $$$ to good works. Unfortunately, it is not possible to do a double-blind test to see if the same amount of good would get done if there were no religious groups. I guess we should just be grateful for good deeds, and keep the rationale for religion itself as a separate issue.

Now...am I still sensible, Ron? ;>)

---

27 Feb 09 - 10:35 PM (#2577604)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D

(Is claiming #400 a good thing?)

---

27 Feb 09 - 10:38 PM (#2577607)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Riginslinger

Was she suspended by her thumbs? I understand that's a good method of persuasion.

---

28 Feb 09 - 11:02 AM (#2577831)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

It should be obvious-- to anybody who reads carefully--what I said. Specifically:   "Nobody has a monopoly on virtue". Unfortunately Mudcatters are not famous for reading carefully--to say the least.





Bill, I'm so sorry for having called you sensible. Please forgive me; I promise it won't happen again.


As you know, my recent criticism of atheists was not aimed at you-- or Amos.

But it's fascinating that you are virtually alone, among self-professed atheists, in even acknowledging that Christians have done and continue to do good.

Those who criticized the nurse so vehemently have responded with a deafening silence.

And your question about religious imperative is a red herring. My father always said: "We pay off on results".   The result of Christianity is that many good works are being done.
I want an acknowledgment--from all atheists--that therefore the world is better off with Christianity.   That's my only issue at this point.   But it's pulling teeth to get anything of the kind.

---

28 Feb 09 - 12:30 PM (#2577891)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D

Red Herring? I think not.... the question indicates that motivation is a hard thing to pin down.

"The result of Christianity is that many good works are being done."

Yes...of course... but if we are to judge by results, then we must also include the sad stories of all the bad works done in the name of, not just Christianity, but religion in general. This gets us into one of those "I can find more petty examples than YOU to illustrate MY point" games, and solves little.


The relevant point, in my way of thinking, is that religion in general provides many people a way of coping and answering those questions which are just plain hard! The historical evolution of religious thought mirrors the concerns of human progress everywhere, and I can not even imagine a time when religion will not be a major element of society.
   Thus, the good works that is done BY Christianity ...or, rather, by Christians seeking to express their charitable feelings, using their beliefs as a focus, need to be acknowledged and appreciated as good deeds, but not as some sort of rationale for validating the underlying belief system, as is commonly done!
(Yeah...I know... that's a tedious, philosopher's nit-picking, when you wanted a simple "yes, I admit it"... but that's not how it works. The whole issue is too complex, and some questions start sounding like "have you stopped beating your wife yet?".)



(so,,,am I starting to sound UN-sensible yet?)

---

01 Mar 09 - 06:27 AM (#2578420)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

How can a religion be in any way good that propagates the notion that all non-believers are going to spend eternity in a fantasy inferno presided over by sadistic goblins? The whole premise is fucked from the start, likewise anyone faithful to such a flatulent rhetoric that holds this splendid life we share here on Planet Earth to be merely a preparation for a mythical hereafter.

---

01 Mar 09 - 02:37 PM (#2578680)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

Those notions, premises and fantasies hurt no one but ourselves.
And, if we did not have them, there would be a great shortage of people running hospitals in Africa, teaching street children (Gill, my partner's daughter is just back from doing that in Sennegal), running a global missing person database (Salvation Army) and doing it all for nothing.
As I said earlier, you should celebrate our delusion because the world would be much poorer without it.

---

01 Mar 09 - 02:40 PM (#2578684)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

Bill, please do give us some examples of bad works of Christianity in the world today.

---

01 Mar 09 - 02:56 PM (#2578694)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L

So strange it is always someone else doing the good work none of the quotes began "I have"

---

01 Mar 09 - 04:50 PM (#2578756)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

The "fantasy inferno" is in the mind of the rather imaginative atheist with the delightfully appropriate handle--who has no way to try to argue other than pathetic caricatures.

Believers in the 'fantasy inferno" are as much typical of all Christians as Hitler, Stalin and Mao are typical of all atheists.




Also, Bill, you don't want to get into the question of whether atheists or Christians have caused more harm. You will have to start out with the above trio--who have caused more deaths than anybody else in the history of the world---and you will never get out of that hole.

Now, rather than go down that blind alley, how about looking at the charity question from the viewpoint of somebody who receives that charity?   Just why do you think it mattered one iota to somebody helped by a church or its members in trying to recover from Katrina, for instance, whether the charity was done for religious reasons or simple human altruism?

That's why your point about motivation is a total red herring.

You are completely correct in noting that much of the benefit of Christian charity is due to the fact that many Christians are organized. In fact, that is a very good point--in favor of organized religion.   Thanks for that.

If atheists were as effective, they might have a leg to stand on in criticizing Christians.

As it is, they seem to take the "freethinker" label a little too seriously --with the result that they will never be organized--since they can hardly agree on anything.

So if you want to get into a petty and pointless contest on who does more good in the world, atheists have no chance. Sorry.

But that's not my subject in the least. All I want is a definite statement by all the Mudcat atheists commenting here that the world is better off with Christianity and Christians.

Which, aside from your posts, seems to be terribly painful for the Mudcat atheists--the others, therefore, are showing remarkably clear signs of being rabidly anti-religion.

Unsurprisingly.

---

01 Mar 09 - 05:12 PM (#2578785)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

Megan, you don't read very carefully.

Also, I seem to recall that anybody who actually said he or she had done good works was to be tagged as a hypocrite--a Matthew quote, as I recall.

Nice try.

---

02 Mar 09 - 03:22 AM (#2579056)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

Megan,
"So strange it is always someone else doing the good work none of the quotes began "I have""
Do I detect a sneer?
Do you mean that there are not so many christian volunteers?
A small proportion I grant you, but those I know come from a very small circle of aquantances. Scaled up globally you can see how christians are able to fund and staff so many of the 3rd world hospitals and aid work mentioned.
Perhaps you meant that you do not believe me.
I could be lying but I have pm d you Gill's e mail address. She would love to send you photos and stories. She was not with a big organisation, just a christian couple from Peurto Rico who set up the little school and kitchen. Sennegal is Muslim so they must not teach any christianity.
Another "someone else" I know is also a mutual friend of Jacqui.
Tony from Hertford.
When a Mercy Ship is berthed in UK he and his wife give up weekends to do maintainance work.
(Mercy Ships are floating operating theatres that ply 3rd world coasts, crewed and funded by.....need I say.)

Did your sneer also apply to Greg who claimed to know "quite a few" atheists who do such work?

---

02 Mar 09 - 03:34 AM (#2579064)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L

I was not sneering at anyone who does good work and does it quietly without waving a banner. What I am heartily sick of is folk waviing "I'm a Christian of course" around as though it was some kind of magic flamin wand behaving as thought if you hit folk around the head often enough with it you can change thier thoughts.

Surely it is much better to walk quietly till someone says "What is it i see in you" then you can quietly say what it is you believe and why it made a difference to you.

also other people branding folk as rabid athiests is downright insulting many of these good people have a very strong personal faith it may not be the speakers it may not be mine but it is thiers and should be respedcted as such.

---

02 Mar 09 - 03:58 AM (#2579071)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

Sorry Megan I do not follow
Your post sneered at those of us who spoke of knowing someone else, but never say "I have "
That is the opposite of what you have now said.
Please explain.

---

02 Mar 09 - 04:16 AM (#2579080)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

Megan, who on the thread could be described as " folk waviing "I'm a Christian of course" around as though it was some kind of magic flamin wand " ??
I see none.
If you meant me and it is true, then I am very sorry.
I am not a very good Christian at all and I would never knowingly express such a thing.
Please give the worst example of it so I never make the mistake again.

---

02 Mar 09 - 08:22 AM (#2579185)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

Megan,

First we get " when you give to the needy, let not your left hand".    Then we get an attack on Mudcat Christians on the basis that they have not said they personally have carried out charitable works. You can't have it both ways.

You have contradicted yourself. I wonder if you noticed.

It certainly seems that you are determined to attack all Christians--with no basis.

Whereas those of us who defend Christians are clear that we are by no means attacking all atheists, nor are we claiming that only Christians carry out charity, much as you may want to misread the posts in question.

Now where is that statement I requested admitting that the world is better off with Christians and Christianity?

If it's too painful for you, that, as I said, is a rather clear indication of rabid anti-religion tendencies.

But you're in good company on Mudcat.

---

02 Mar 09 - 08:24 AM (#2579187)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

"...when you give to the needy, let not your left hand...."

---

02 Mar 09 - 08:48 AM (#2579204)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c

Yes, there are a lot of good works carried out by Christians. there are alo good works carried out by other religions. Conversely there has been and, still to some extent is, harm engendered by adherence to a religious belief that the holders believe should be foisted onto everyone else. Think about the harm done by the Inquisition and by the early Muslims who spread across North Africa, killing non-believers. That seems to be continuing in the Darfur region today.

There are fundamentalists of most religions who give their own brand of faith a bad name. IMHO the religious rules for any religion are man-made, done to keep the flock in order. The basic tenets of a good life do not have to have a religious base.

As a teenager I belonged to a church but left when I was told off by one of the Sunday School, at the age of 15, for not wanting to take part in the Church sports day. It was made quite clear that I had let them down. As an adult I found myself at odds with what was coming down from the pulpit during the sermon, but with no way to question the content. At a Pentecostalist meeting the pastor told us that anybody who was not of that particular faith would not go to Heaven - "not the Pope, or the Queen" - because they had not been saved. Those are the things that made me move away from organised religion and led me to work out my own system of belief.

I worked with a guy who, on Ash Wednesday, made it a point to come round in the afternoon to every area in the office. Now this wasn't his usual behaviour, but the ash smear on his forehead was very obvious and that is what he wanted everyone to see. We basically ignored it.

I have no problem with anyone who has a religious belief - I just don't want to be told that I should share it or made to feel less because I don't. Don't push your belief on me and I'll not push mine on you, even if mine has a more rational base. :0)

---

02 Mar 09 - 08:53 AM (#2579207)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

Thanks, Jacqui, for the statement acknowledging that good works are done by Christians---but obviously not just by Christians.   Does that mean that the world is better off with Christians and Christianity on it? That's the other part of the question.

---

02 Mar 09 - 09:27 AM (#2579221)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c

I couldn't actually say that - that statement would need to be weighed against the damage done by so called Christians overtime.

Read 'Things Fall Apart' by Chinua Achebe to get some idea of what has happened when Christians get involved with what they see as primitive cultures. Look at the persecution of the Jews, by Christians over many centuries. I have the same problem with any religion that tries to run roughshod over what they see as non-believers, but the Christians have had the worst press on that basis for a long time.

Of course, there is the argument that these atrocities have been laid down by business and governmental interests, using religion as their excuse, but they are still carried out in the name of Christ, who, I'm sure from reading the Gospels, would not be happy with what is being done, even today, in his name.

---

02 Mar 09 - 09:43 AM (#2579229)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

But that is not fair Jacqui.
Any state or organisation that has existed for centuries will have things in its past that are bad.
The question is simple.
Would the world today be better or worse without Chritianity.
Are all the good works going on with the homeless, poor and sick in our cities and the third world outweighed by all the bad things Christians do today?
And what are those bad things?

---

02 Mar 09 - 10:15 AM (#2579256)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Mrr

What makes you think it's only the Christians doing work with the homeless, the poor and the sick etc? Bill Gates seems to be doing a whole lot, and he's an atheist.

The world would be better without religions because to do good requires only compassion; to do evil and call it good requires religion.

The bad things include preventing loving couples from marrying because they don't have different genitalia. Harrassing non-Christian military into nervous breakdowns and fragging atheist soldiers like Tillman (was that his name? I confuse him with Emmett Till). Flying airplanes into buildings and killing girls who want an education. Oh, right, that isn't the Christians, but boy, it's hard to tell the fundies apart, especially since they all worship the same invisible friend.

---

02 Mar 09 - 10:24 AM (#2579262)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Barry Finn

"Would the world today be better or worse without Chritianity"?

Talk of the good of missionaries. The sinful whalers gave them more respect, didn't steal their land, plunder their resources nor force them into labor, but they are by maajority christians today.

Like our first nation people they are today religious people but do not follow the religious beliefs of their ancestors but are christians. Who are better off for the coming of the Christians? Certinally the Christians brought the "savages" into the modern world even if at the point of a cross but are they better for it?
The point is moot, they suffered like hell!

Barry

---

02 Mar 09 - 10:27 AM (#2579264)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Monique

"The question is simple. Would the world today be better or worse without Chritianity. "The question is unanswearable. How should we know, we only have this one and only world and it does have Christianity. Everyone can just imagine it without and decide if it'd be better or worse according to his/her point of view... which solves nothing.

---

02 Mar 09 - 10:40 AM (#2579280)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

The question isn't unanswerable, Monique, it's just difficult.

---

02 Mar 09 - 02:41 PM (#2579509)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John MacKenzie

How many wars were started by atheists?


BTW Ron D, you are turning jumping to conclusions, into an Olympic sport. ☺

---

02 Mar 09 - 03:03 PM (#2579544)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

This afternoon's Beyond Belief (BBC Radio 4 - UK) was interesting today. Listen again:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b00htgzx

---

02 Mar 09 - 03:15 PM (#2579557)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

I posted links for these quotes on 27th.
The study focused on Lesotho and Zambia, which had HIV prevalence rates of 23.2% and 17% respectively in 2005. It found that Christian hospitals and health centres are providing about 40% of HIV care and treatment services in Lesotho and almost a third of the HIV/AIDS treatment facilities in Zambia are run by FBOs.

While popularly held beliefs--and characterizations by US government officials--proport that many churches/temples/synagogues/mosques/etc. and faith-based organizations give money internationally, studies and news reports found that the overwhelming majority of religious-based international aid is Christian.

All do gooders are not christian but the Zambia and Lesotho UN report gives an indication of the extent to which poor countries rely on services provided by christian volunteers. Surely that would be missed?

---

02 Mar 09 - 11:04 PM (#2579936)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

If we want to debate on whether Christianity has been a net plus for the world over time, something tells me we could waste an amazing amount of time--and never reach an agreed conclusion. In the grand Mudcat tradition.

That wasn't even my question. The question is whether Christianity and Christians are, not in the past but now, a net plus for the world.   Since some atheists seem to yearn for a world without them.

However if you're determined to go into history, we can examine the parallel question of whether atheism has been good for the world or not. And we don't even have to go back very far.   With Hitler, Stalin, and Mao being responsible for more deaths than anybody else in history, that question is not hard to answer.

---

03 Mar 09 - 12:09 AM (#2579991)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

Are the Christians in Lesotho and Zimbabwe only preaching abstinence, or are they actually handing out condoms and teaching people to use then? Even the former could easily be more treatment than their governments are providing, yet I wouldn't call it a good thing!

Hitler was a Christian, don't forget! That's why he wanted to wipe out the jews! Had he been an atheist, we might have been better off!

And no, those three don't have the top billing in history, sorry.

Not to mention that Stalin and Mao rarely killed people IN THE NAME OF atheism, did they? Compare them to the deaths in the name of the Christian = Moslem = Jewish god, and then what have you got?

---

03 Mar 09 - 03:26 AM (#2580042)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

Mrzy, those christians in Lesotho and Zambia are not preaching anything.
According to the UN report they are providing "HIV care and treatment services."
You did not even read the brief extract I pasted!
Twice!

And those two countries are just examples. Christian volunteers are providing humanitarian services everywhere.

---

03 Mar 09 - 11:56 AM (#2580334)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

Um, yes, I did; here is a quote: yet there is often little cooperation between these organizations and mainstream public health programmes.
In other words, they probably *aren't* doing what the (secular, mainstream) health programs would be doing, or there would be no need for such a complaint. They probably *are* preaching abstinence and *not* handing out condoms, or they couldn't very well call themselves Christian. At least, not if they're from the US.

---

03 Mar 09 - 12:13 PM (#2580351)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John MacKenzie

Atheism means not believing in A god. It is not solely those who don't believe in the legend of The Naz

---

03 Mar 09 - 02:01 PM (#2580442)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Wesley S

Hitler was a Christian, don't forget! That's why he wanted to wipe out the jews! Had he been an atheist, we might have been better off!

And if wishes had wings frogs wouldn't bump their butts.

So if your new and improved Hitler had been an athiest how many people would he have killed then? I can't believe you're using this flight of fancy to prove your point.

---

03 Mar 09 - 04:18 PM (#2580542)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Riginslinger

"Nurse Suspended for praying ????"

             By her thumbs, hopefully!

---

03 Mar 09 - 06:16 PM (#2580628)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

Meezy, handing out condoms or preaching abstinence would be prophylactic advice.
This is HOSPITAL CARE and TREATMENT of HIV SUFFERERS!!
And it would be sorely missed if those good people all went home.

---

03 Mar 09 - 11:54 PM (#2580798)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing

Mrrzy, you are presenting a terrible stereotype of Christians in America. It is the vocal minority, the extremists whom you are talking about. There are many, many ethical and good Christians in the US, just as there are of any other persuasion.

One good thing, now that President Obama has undone some of the shrub's idiocy, Planned Parenthood and others can now offer birth control advice, etc. in other countries, again and that includes preventive care against HIV, etc., i.e. condoms.

---

03 Mar 09 - 11:58 PM (#2580799)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

" Hitler was a Christian, don't forget" Yes, I'm sure the poster doesn't want to forget this.

Too bad it's totally false--after about age 7.

In fact it's about the purest drivel we've seen yet on Mudcat.

And don't bother with quotes from speeches. Tell us, pray, if you believe what a public figure says in public or what he says in private.

Perhaps you also believe that he was primarily a kindly vegetarian gentleman who loved pets and children.

Everything he said in public only confirms what anybody who can think should realize--Hitler used everything and everybody he could to his own advantage.


Try a few quotes from his private conversations--when he said what he really thought--not what he thought he needed to say to, for instance, undermine the Center Party- (look it up)--which was a major concern for him in the early 30's. In contrast, try these--when he was among friends and sycophants--and had no need to dissemble.

From Hitler's Secret Conversations--


night of 11-12 July 1941:

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew."

13 Dec 1941

"Christianity is an invention of sick brains...one could imagine nothing more senseless..."


Are there no Mudcat atheists who can think aside from Bill D and Amos? Why does non-belief in God have to also mean non-belief in research or thinking?


Sorry, Mudcat atheists: you lose again.   Hitler was an atheist. Live with it.

---

04 Mar 09 - 12:23 AM (#2580816)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

Here are a few more Hitler gems, for your delight, from his table talk.

10 Oct 1941

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure".

14 Oct 1941

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death....When understanding of the universe has become widespread...Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity..."

This last one has amazing similarity to the views of some current atheists.

Good luck trying to explain that.

---

04 Mar 09 - 12:26 AM (#2580817)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

AFTER YEARS OF TELLING PEOPLE CHEMOTHERAPY IS THE ONLY WAY TO TRY ('TRY' IS THE KEY WORD) AND ELIMINATE CANCER, JOHN HOPKINS IS FINALLY STARTING TO TELL YOU THERE IS AN ALTERNATIVE WAY .   
Cancer Update from John Hopkins

1. Every person has cancer cells in the body. These cancer cells do not show up in the standard tests until they have multiplied to a few billion. When doctors tell cancer patients that there are no more cancer cells in their bodies after treatment, it just means the tests are unable to detect the cancer cells because they have not reached the detectable size.

2. Cancer cells occur between 6 to more than 10 times in a person's lifetime

3. When the person's immune system is strong the cancer cells will be destroyed and prevented from multiplying and forming tumors.

4. When a person has cancer it indicates the person has multiple nutritional deficiencies. These could be due to genetic, environmental, food and lifestyle factors.

5. To overcome the multiple nutritional deficiencies, changing diet and including supplements will strengthen the immune system.

6. Chemotherapy involves poisoning the rapidly-growing cancer cells and also destroys rapidly-growing healthy cells in the bone marrow, gastro-intestinal tract etc, and can cause organ damage, like liver, kidneys, heart, lungs etc.

7. Radiation while destroying cancer cells also burns, scars and damages healthy cells, tissues and organs.

8. Initial treatment with chemotherapy and radiation will often reduce tumor size. However prolonged use of chemotherapy and radiation do not result in more tumor destruction.

9 When the body has too much toxic burden from chemotherapy and radiation the immune system is either compromised or destroyed, hence the person can succumb to various kinds of infections and complications.

10. Chemotherapy and radiation can cause cancer cells to mutate and become resistant and difficult to destroy. Surgery can also cause cancer cells to spread to other sites.

11. An effective way to battle cancer is to starve the cancer cells by not feeding it with the foods it needs to multiply.

CANCER CELLS FEED ON:

a. Sugar is a cancer-feeder. By cutting off sugar it cuts off one important food supply to the cancer cells. Sugar substitutes like NutraSweet, Equal,Spoonful, etc are made with Aspartame and it is harmful. A better natural substitute would be Manuka honey or molasses but only in very small amounts. Table salt has a chemical added to make it white in color. Better alternative is Bragg's aminos or sea salt.

b. Milk causes the body to produce mucus, especially in the gastro-intestinal tract. Cancer feeds on mucus. By cutting off milk and substituting with unsweetened soya milk cancer cells are being starved.

c. Cancer cells thrive in an acid environment. A meat-based diet is acidic and it is best to eat fish, and a little chicken rather than beef or pork. Meat also contains livestock antibiotics, growth hormones and parasites, which are all harmful, especially to people with cancer.

d. A diet made of 80% fresh vegetables and juice, whole grains,seeds, nuts and a little fruits help put the body into an alkaline environment.   About 20% can be from cooked food including beans. Fresh vegetable juices provide live enzymes that are easily absorbed and reach down to cellular levels within 15 minutes to nourish and enhance growth of healthy cells. To obtain live enzymes for building healthy cells try and dr ink fresh vegetable juice (most vegetables including bean sprouts)and eat some raw vege tables 2 or 3 times a day. Enzymes are destroyed at temperatures of 104 degrees F (40 degre es C).

e. Avoid coffee, tea, and chocolate, which have high caffeine.Green tea is a better alternative and has cancer-fighting properties. Water-best to drink purified water, or filtered, to avoid known toxins and heavy metals in tap water. Distilled water is acidic, avoid it.

12. Meat protein is difficult to digest and requires a lot of digestive enzymes. Undigested meat remaining in the intestines become putrified and leads to more toxic buildup.

13. Cancer cell walls have a tough protein covering. By refraining from or eating less meat it frees more enzymes to attack the protein walls of cancer cells and allows the body's killer cells to destroy the cancer cells.

14. Some supplements build up the immune system (IP6, Flor-ssence,Essiac, anti-oxidants, vitamins, minerals, EFAs etc.) to enable the body's own killer cells to destroy cancer cells. Other supplements like vitamin E are known to cause apotheosis, or programmed cell death, the body's normal method of disposing of damaged, unwanted, or unneeded cells.

15. Cancer is a disease of the mind, body, and spirit. A proactive and positive spirit will help the cancer warrior be a survivor. Anger, unforgiveness and bitterness put the body into a stressful and acidic environment. Learn to have a loving and forgiving spirit. Learn to relax and enjoy life.

16. Cancer cells cannot thrive in an oxygenated environment. Exercising daily, and deep breathing help to get more oxygen down to the cellular level. Oxygen therapy is another means employed to destroy cancer cells.

CANCER UPDATE FROM JOHN HOPKINS HOSPITAL , U S - PLEASE READ

1. No plastic containers in micro.

2. No water bottles in freezer.

3. No plastic wrap in microwave.

Johns Hopkins has recently sent this out in its newsletters. This information is being circulated at Walter Reed Army Medical Center as well.

Dioxin chemicals causes cancer, especially breast cancer. Dioxins are highly poisonous to the cells of our bodies.Don't freeze your plastic bottles with water in them as this releases dioxins from the plastic.

Recently, Dr. Edward Fujimoto, Wellness Program Manager at Castle Hospital , was on a TV program to explain this health hazard. He talked about dioxins and how bad they are for us.. He said that we should not be heating our food in the microwave using plastic containers.

This especially applies to foods that contain fat. He said that the combination of fat, high heat, and plastics releases dioxin into the food and ultimately into the cells of the body. Instead, he recommends using glass, such as Corning Ware, Pyrex or ceramic containers for heating food. You get the same results, only without the dioxin. So such things as TV dinners, instant ramen and soups, etc., should be removed from the container and heated in something else.

Paper isn't bad but you don't know what is in the paper. It's just safer to use tempered glass, Corning Ware, etc. He reminded us that a while ago some of the fast food restaurants moved away from the foam containers to paper. The dioxin problem is one of the reasons.

Also, he pointed out that plastic wrap, such as Saran, is just as dangerous when placed over foods to be cooked in the microwave. As the food is nuked, the high heat causes poisonous toxins to actually melt out of the plastic wrap and drip into the food. Cover food with a paper towel instead.

---

04 Mar 09 - 01:34 AM (#2580843)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Jeez! Hitler was not a Christian..('by there fruits you shall know them'...and..'by this shall all men know who are my disciples, for the LOVE they have for one another').....and anyone who jumps on the nurse, for praying, in her thoughts, shouldn't criticize Hitler, you're already like him,..and a true devotee! Look at what you've become!! You want to control even peoples thoughts, when you can't understand her faith?????('don't criticize what you can't understand'--Dylan) ..So for the 'cause' of being a far left loon, which is merely politics, people can't pray, or think what they want, to whomever they want to, whenever they want to without your approval????? ...and you think YOU'RE the enlightened ones of hipness?????!!! Guess again

---

04 Mar 09 - 07:39 AM (#2580958)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jeri

The 'cancer update' purportedly to be from Johns Hopkins that GfS repeated here is a fraud. See Snopes

---

04 Mar 09 - 10:54 AM (#2581075)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

I see those pesky Mudcat Mods have been at it again! Our guest nurse was simply showing a quite justified concern for the well-being of one of our contributors who not only displays a quite alarming tenancy to misanthropic speculation, but an unhealthy knowledge of the utterances of Adolf Hitler.

Sinister Supporter (The Mudcatter formerly known as Insane Beard)

---

Posting policy

---

04 Mar 09 - 10:57 AM (#2581079)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Riginslinger

Probably some one was praying for a new cancer cure and the mainstream media picked it up.

---

04 Mar 09 - 01:08 PM (#2581184)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D

Since I need to be at Johns Hopkins often, and read their newspapers & public flyers...and since I am keenly aware of their attitudes and general style, I was mentally saying..."Uh-Oh!" as I read that purported 'release'. Thanks to Jeri for saving ME the trouble of debunking it.
Now there are some fine ideas in it, and some of the practices could be good for some folks....but Johns Hopkins would never suggest or hint that these ideas represented 'cancer protection'.

......but way back up there,,,about 40 posts, I was asked a couple of questions and chided about my post.

To Keith A...re: "...do give us some examples of bad works of Christianity in the world today."

I suppose we might differ on what we considered 'bad'. *I* consider sending missionaries to primitive cultures and trying to sell them a new religion and a "savior" is not only bad, but borders on dangerous. (long explanation about 'why' omitted here...you can probably guess)
Also, Christianity, (or rather, some Christians) as with a couple other religions, is using religious 'principles' to defend wars and 'ethnic cleansing' , justify alterations of history books, and obfuscate the lessons of science. These are cases of "place the dart, then draw the bullseye to suit your goal". I cannot even enumerate the myriad cases of personal violence and stupidity done "in the name of..."...but a couple of cults that resulted in dead followers come to mind...Jonestown, the "comet group". You can say "Oh, those were just crazy, sick 'people' who were perverting the message of Christianity,"...but the problem of bad logic, bad science, bad justification and bad intentions happens on a continuum, not in isolation. We read about the extreme cases, not the everyday nonsense that inhibits real learning and causes shame & confusion to many of the young, the uneducated and the easily intimidated in society.

..----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ummm...Ron...are you sure you have the concept of "Red Herring" right? This generally refers to a deliberate attempt to deceive or to mislead one's readers by changing the topic...etc.

You may, if you wish, suggest that you don't agree with my examples, or dispute my logic...but I DO intend my comments to be relevant....if they confuse you..*grin*...just ask.

   I do want to correct the idea that I even suggested that comparing the amount of evil done by atheists of Christians was useful or relevant....the only point is that BOTH do it at times.

As to "motivation"... what I said was "it is hard to pin down", meaning that *when* we identify a good deed...or a bad one, for that matter, we can usually only guess at the underlying (possibly emotional or psychological) 'motivation', but we can usually discern a superficial one...and that's what we have to work with. We must, up to a point, rely on what folks tell us their rationale is. I often have my doubts, as I suppose you do, but it's a guide.

---

04 Mar 09 - 01:36 PM (#2581219)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

katlaughing, I live in Central Virginia, the buckle on the Bible Belt. It is TYPICAL, not stereotypical, of my neighbors or my children's school friends' parents, to think exactly like that. The unfortunate thing is that stereotypes are so often based on the typical, then twisted to make it look worse; here really the only twisting would be for them all to be Young Earth Creationists, instead of just most of them. Even the Quakers down here talk of God all the time instead of the Inner Light. Up Philly way, you did the right thing because it was the right thing to do, not because some other authority was telling you to.

Of course there are also the educated, secularized yet-still believers, and the educated, nonbelievers, a-plenty, but they are mostly the University are the others are mostly Town. We are both, but my kids are growing up fluent in Townie (bilingual in a way, since they can do the I and the whom and, like, all that stuff)...

Wesley S, I was responding to someone else who'd brought it up to bolster their side; thank you for proving my point that it's a silly argument either way, although mine is at least based on reality and not wishful thinking...not what the atheist Hitler would have done, but whether he was a Christian or secular. He and his regime were Christian, and overtly so, whether he was a disbeliever in private or no.

I consider it bad for humanity that religions teach people to think of things that aren't real as real, and then use these creations, creatures, same idea, to get them to do things that benefit The Religion (very broadly speaking one could say The Church but it wouldn't be quite broad enough) as well as some particular poor folks who should already be being taken care of by their o-so-pious neighbors. Not to mention that using the idea of reward and punishment as coming only after death really makes people blow off the current life, which is the only one we actually experience.

I was brought up to know right from wrong, and to realize that doing right was often not the easy way out of a situation, but that the point was to do the right thing on your way out, not to get out the most efficiently. There was, and is, no need to bring anything supernatural into it, rewards and punishments were right there and still are, and I need a third thing to round this out but hey, voilà. - voilà

---

04 Mar 09 - 03:05 PM (#2581274)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

Hmmm. How do you do that accent again?

voilà - alt 0224

[helpful clone]

---

04 Mar 09 - 06:32 PM (#2581407)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Wow!..You're on the ball, Jeri.....you caught that fast!!....I gave the room a little longer!...Now, if they could see all the rest of the fraud in Washington, you'd be phenomenal!

---

04 Mar 09 - 11:23 PM (#2581539)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

It should be obvious to all concerned that atheists have in fact caused far more deaths than Christians--and thus been far worse for the world. As I said, since you start with Hitler, Stalin and Mao--who were responsible for more deaths than anybody else in history --there is no way atheists can claim to be a positive force.

Which Christians can, with credibility--as been illustrated already on this thread with evidence from Africa and New Orleans, among others.

I'm sorry Mr. "Beard" felt it necessary to change his handle--but note with interest that he still, it seems, does not actually believe in what he says enough to use his own name.

Nor of course does Janet. So I suppose he's in good company.

And, by the way, if somebody still is under the delusion that Hitler was a Christian, after about age 7--the poster is still welcome to provide some actual evidence--though that does not seem to be the style of Mudcat atheists, for some reason. Keeping in mind that everything Hitler said in speeches was rather transparently self-serving, to say the least, and no proof of anything--- except his diabolical nature.

---

04 Mar 09 - 11:32 PM (#2581541)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

And "unhealthy knowledge" about Hitler?   That's cute. No question, ignorance is far preferable--about everything.   That certainly seems to be the general approach for many Mudcat atheists--all except Amos and Bill D.

Gee, it seems the poster concerned about "unhealthy knowledge" has some objection to facts which disagree with his comfortable assumptions.   We actually have had a lot of that sort of concern in the US by quite a few people who didn't like you to question anything--they were called Bush voters.

---

04 Mar 09 - 11:36 PM (#2581542)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

"...as illustrated already on this thread...."

---

05 Mar 09 - 03:33 AM (#2581590)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

Bill D
The 2 examples of bad things christians do.

"consider sending missionaries to primitive cultures and trying to sell them a new religion and a "savior" is not only bad, but borders on dangerous"
That's OK. They don't do that.

Justifying wars and ethnic cleansing?
I can't think of any examples, although religion is often wrongly used to label different ethnic groups in ethnic conflicts, e.g. N Ireland, Yugoslavia.
Which cases were you thinking of?

(Oxfam in Sudan. They have been supplying food, water and sanitation to 600 000 refugees.)

---

05 Mar 09 - 03:38 AM (#2581591)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

Save The Children in Sudan.
We're protecting 45,239 children from violence and abuse
We're educating 15,948 displaced children
We're reducing malnutrition for 1,260 children under five

---

05 Mar 09 - 05:19 AM (#2581631)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

I'm sorry Mr. "Beard" felt it necessary to change his handle--but note with interest that he still, it seems, does not actually believe in what he says enough to use his own name.

How many Mudcatters are dull enough to use their own names? Part of the fun is an imaginative handle, which it has been Mudcat policy to encourage. When I first started posting here I did so using the name I perform under - Sedayne, itself derived from an anagram of my given name - but eventually chose an actual anagram - Insane Beard - until a particularly significant encounter earlier in in the week with a Sinister Supporter in Chester Cathedral with which I'd long been familiar in reproduction. I like both the alliteration and the implication of archaic religiosity, of which I am a keen enthusiast, opposing as I do the popular notion that such carvings are somehow pagan (see the blurb attending the reproduction link). But whilst my interests in the Culture and Theology of Pre-Reformation Roman Catholicism are partly about seeking to uncover a continuity of Dualist / Gnostic philosophical thinking that resonates between the teachings of Jesus Christ and the writings of Karl Marx, I see such things entirely in terms of Human Materialism however so couched in their original context. So, as for not believing enough in what I say, I'd say it was more a matter of Gnosis than simple belief, which can only ever be a process of discovery and revelation. On one thing I remain certain though - and that is the right of the human individual to cultural and spiritual diversity which is most certainly not respected by Christians on any level whatsoever, historically or otherwise.

Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius!

---

05 Mar 09 - 05:55 AM (#2581651)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

SS, you finished, "cultural and spiritual diversity which is most certainly not respected by Christians on any level whatsoever, historically or otherwise"

Can you justify that?
I think that, apart from fundamentalists, Christians are the most tolerant of people.

---

05 Mar 09 - 06:56 AM (#2581677)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Riginslinger

Of course, they're all fundamentalists at heart, so...

---

05 Mar 09 - 06:58 AM (#2581679)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

Christians are the most tolerant of people

You say that as if simply by becoming a Christian one is somehow transfigured into a better person than they were hitherto. I wonder, to what extent is this superiority supported by Christian teaching & expectation? Or is that Christianity attracts a better class of person anyway? God knows, you certainly see enough of them shouting about it on the streets, and wasn't even Bob Dylan himself once - ahem - Saved? People are people regardless of their professed belief, which makes the so-called tolerance of Christians all the more bogus not least because of the vile & bloody history of their faith and their conviction that the rest of us miserable sinners are going to hell anyway. The case which inspired this thread is but one example of this, whereby a Christian felt that what was somehow true for her must, therefore, be true for everyone else. This, of course, is the heart & soul of Christian Theology and has justified the massacre and oppression of millions in the name of its universal mission of Truth. The extremes of religious persecution notwithstanding, however, the whole thing was summed up perfectly by a film I once saw in which a community of once proud shamanic Inuits were, as a consequence of their exposure to Christian Missionaries, reduced to alcoholic idiots dancing to the fecking Birdy Song. Praise the Lord!

---

05 Mar 09 - 07:51 AM (#2581700)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

So can you give us an example of Christian intolerance or not?

---

05 Mar 09 - 09:40 AM (#2581750)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

( In my Save The Children post I pasted from their site and "we are" means "they are". I did not mean to include myself.

---

05 Mar 09 - 10:21 AM (#2581773)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D

Ummm...Keith A...

"That's OK. They don't do that."

What planet have you been living on? Or are you just saying they are more careful how they express it these days? Many denominations most certainly DO have foreign missionary outreach:

Google sees all

first on the list

You can read for days by following links.

Here's one complaining that not enough attention is given to missions right here:

"American churches give tens of thousands of dollars every year to mission projects in every continent except North America. Church members will travel thousands of miles to Quito, Ecuador, to see Radio Station HCJB that they have been helping to support, but they feel no obligation to support WMBI in Chicago. The only difference is that one represents foreign missions and the other home missions, and foreign missions usually win out.

OF COURSE many of them also do some 'good works' in the process, but the major focus for many always was "spreading the gospel". In the 1860s thru the 1940s, it was not even too thinly disguised as "charity".

------------------------------------------------------------------------

As to justifying wars & other violence, you gave a couple of the best examples. I heard the argument 40 years ago that 'it wasn't really about religion'. That is just a rationalization....a sincere one, perhaps....but many IN those conflicts don't bother to do the rationalization.
   All over the world, even where it is not the official position of a religious group to defeat and denigrate another group, many members think exactly that way. Look at the conflicts in India/Pakistan/Bangladesh among religions & sects. Right here...5 minutes drive from me, the Mormons (LDS) had to "cleanse" their entire church a few years ago when some unbelievers managed to get access to 'forbidden areas'. Is this less disturbing because the LDS didn't seek to do violence to the trespassers? I guess so...but...

Sorry, Keith A., but the very tenets of many (notice, I did NOT say all) religions and sects demand that followers assume that 'others' are following the 'wrong' path. The only variation is in how ummmm.... stridently...they express their opinions.

---

05 Mar 09 - 10:30 AM (#2581777)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D

Can't resist this: Japan's "Deep, Serious
Thirst for God"

Shinto & Buddhism just aren't 'satisfying'... we need to give them Jesus. *sigh*

---

05 Mar 09 - 11:12 AM (#2581799)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Aggie Nostic

"So can you give us an example of Christian intolerance or not?"

Ok, hmmm where shall we start, oh I know...


http://www.icwseminary.org/evil_abomination.htm


next..

---

05 Mar 09 - 12:40 PM (#2581860)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P

Ok, can we get past the generalizations? No group as amorphous as any religion is all one way or another.

There are tolerant and intolerant Christians, members of other religions, and those with no religion.

There are good and bad Christians, members of other religions, and those with no religion.

There are folks who do and don't do good works who are Christians, members of other religions, and those with no religion.

The only real discussion has to focus on each individual situation. Is this person good, bad, or some of both? Is this specific action good, bad, or some of both?

Please stop boring me with the bloody history of religion. Please stop boring me with broad statements that don't actually say anything useful. Please stop asking for examples of this or that. There are, of course, plentiful examples of actions of every shade from black through gray to white. How not? I'm seeing a lot of folks here arguing in a knee-jerk way: Christianity Good! Christianity Bad! BORING!

Stick to the topic, in this case the poor nurse who doesn't have enough sense to know when to keep her yapper zipped.

John

---

05 Mar 09 - 01:03 PM (#2581880)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D

John...it was evident at the outset that the issue was wider than just this one nurse. She, of course, broke the rules...and was being 'punished' for it. Seems simple...but...

But she and others did not agree that 'the rule' was fair & reasonable, and there IS an immediate issue over where & in what circumstances any person with strong religious beliefs should 'offer' them to others.

This is a complex, many-layered debate...going even to the interpretation of the US Constitution. Simply stating the obvious...that there are good and bad adherents of all sets of ideas... does little to shed light on the underlying issues.

plus...this is Mudcat, where divergent views are tolerated and threads will drift.

---

05 Mar 09 - 01:53 PM (#2581915)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P

Yes, I agree that the issue is much larger than the individual nurse. However, arguing about whether or not Christians and
Christianity is good or bad isn't going to address the larger issues. I'd love to talk about the constitutional issues. I'd like to talk about the ethics of sharing your belief system with non-believers. I'd love to talk about whether or not Christians, or non-Christians, are discriminated against. But there's precious little useful discussion of these issues -- or any issue that can actually be discussed intelligently -- in this thread. Arguing from and about generalities isn't really investigating anything.

John

---

05 Mar 09 - 03:03 PM (#2581993)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

I don't think anyone says that atheists can't be horrible dictators who murder their own and neighboring people en masse. It's just that there are a lot fewer of those (you got 2; Hitler's regime was religious whether he individually was or not) than there were horrible dictators yada yada who drew their authority from their god(s). You don't see the jack-booted thugs calling There Are No Gods as they bash in your door under those regimes, either, the way goons would call on their appropriate deity or prophet if they were on religious business. Look at the catholic / protestant warring that led my ancestors here
Remember, you have to include under that all kings and emperors who may only have killed in the tens, but who had absolute power over their subjects by divine right, and used their holy texts or strings of knots or whatever to justify what was perfectly normal to them then but which we now abhor, like slavery, lopping off ears, and all that went under that yada yada above. As the community has become global people are now likely to use other phrases in those selfsame texts to show how slavery (for example) is bad, now that it isn't normal any more. That is intelligence and education working against religion, and it's an uphill battle.
The ancient Arabs had a ton of knowledge that the ancient Christians destroyed as contrary to their current interpretations of their text, which is actually just a different version of the same text anyway, but try telling them that sometimes. We've spent centuries trying to rediscover all that, and haven't done it yet.
Only in the Vatican would there be, and in fact there is a round table going on *right now* about what to think about Darwinian evolution. I mean, really. It's the same thing they had to do to accept that the Earth isn't the center of what is now called the solar system. In this day and age? I am at a loss for words that I'm expected not to think that positively medieval!

THAT's the harm we fight, you see, not so much the idea that you can go hand out clothes but they usually do come with Bibles, and that if you wanted to you could do that kind of thing with a secular organization without having to worry about whether the child you're helping has been "saved" (really ironic in that context, eh?).
Sure there are do-gooders in religious organizations. They would flourish in secular do-good organizations, though. You don't need religion to do the right thing. You don't need religion to *define* the right thing, either, as per above. Just join a do-good organization like The Peace Corps, or Doctors [and now there are other professions doing this] without Borders, or your local refugee relocation center or library. But it's a waste of your effort to join the Boy Scouts where you have to be straight and have faith, or to join a church just to have a social life. The harm outweighs the good, and a lot of your effort will go someplace that isn't the child your society clothes.

---

05 Mar 09 - 03:23 PM (#2582006)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Wesley S

"I don't think anyone says that atheists can't be horrible dictators who murder their own and neighboring people en masse. It's just that there are a lot fewer of those"

Well - DUH. There are fewer atheists than people who believe in a higher power of some sort. About 85% of the population believe. The rest don't. So you have a smaller pool to choose from.

---

05 Mar 09 - 11:30 PM (#2582314)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

"Hitler's regime was religious."   More unsupported tripe--from one of our favorite sources.

He tolerated it-- barely --and tried to use it. Realized there were enough people who wanted him dead already--and, correctly, felt if he tried to carry out his real wishes he would further increase their number. And anybody who did one iota of research would know that he only tolerated it if the religious community in question did not oppose him--in anything. When some religious people did, he had his thugs take care of them.   

If you disagree with this, let's have some actual facts--even though it might go against your credo as a Mudcat atheist--to whine about religion forever, without actually having anything to back it up but your own prejudice. (This of course does not include Bill D and Amos, who believe in actual debate.)

---

05 Mar 09 - 11:48 PM (#2582317)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

People with no imagination use their own names?   Uh, not exactly. More like, people who are willing to stand behind every word they write.

Now, "Sinister Supporter"--that's an interesting one.   Please excuse me for asking: is that a jockstrap which only supports the left side?   Sounds rather impractical. Be sure to let us know how it works out.



Regarding atheist regimes killing their own people: sure is intriguing that every atheist regime, without exception, has been a disaster for its own citizens. Some citizens have felt so strongly about it that they have fled their country. And sometimes the regime has killed them while they were attempting to leave.

Sounds like there must be a fatal flaw in atheism.   My guess--only a guess--if that the flaw is that atheism makes it easy for the ruler to substitute himself as a God-figure: e.g. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and in North Korea, both the current ruler and his father.

---

05 Mar 09 - 11:50 PM (#2582319)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

"...is that the flaw..."

---

06 Mar 09 - 07:03 AM (#2582449)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

I am being forced to backtrack.
Here in Britain fundamentalist evangelicals are rare, but I accept you have a few over there.
About a third of the whole planet are christians so it will not be hard to find a few wackos.
Intolerance to gays is rife in China, N. Korea, and was in Soviet Union.
I do not give way on the value of christian volunteers.
Not evangelising, but feeding, protecting and providing medical care and sanitation to millions.

---

06 Mar 09 - 07:08 AM (#2582451)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

Obviously, I am not claiming that atheism was the main reason people fled their own countries. But atheism, since it makes a personality cult much easier, makes it virtually impossible to put a check on bad ideas of the God-substitute--e.g. Hitler: anti-Semitism, as well as of course starting World War II;    Mao:   the Great Sparrow Campaign, if not the entire Great Leap Forward.

And nobody is claiming non-atheistic states are perfect. Nobody is advocating a theistic state, for instance. Obviously, the best idea is neither a theistic nor an atheistic state.

But the fact remains that atheistic states have a perfect record of failure; non-atheistic states do not.

---

06 Mar 09 - 08:15 AM (#2582507)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

Here in Britain fundamentalist evangelicals are rare

The nurse in question was one such.

---

06 Mar 09 - 08:29 AM (#2582514)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

From original link.
She insists she has never forced her own religious beliefs on anyone but politely inquired if the elderly patient wanted her to pray for her – either in the woman's presence or after the nurse had left the patient's home.
Neither evangelical nor fundamentalist.

---

06 Mar 09 - 10:38 AM (#2582602)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c

Also from the original link.

Mrs Petrie said: "I stopped handing out prayer cards after that but I found it more and more difficult [not to offer them]. My concern is for the person as a whole, not just their health.

That sounds pretty evangelical to me.

Evangelicals aren't that rare. I have, in the past, attended services in both Ware and in Cornwall. They just don't have as much political clout in the UK as is the case in the USA.

---

06 Mar 09 - 11:24 AM (#2582637)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Riginslinger

If you're lying in a hospital, and you wake up to find a nurse standing next to your bed, mumbling to herself, surely you'd wonder what else she'd been up to.

---

06 Mar 09 - 11:32 AM (#2582641)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D

Keith A....If "fundamental evangelism" is not common in Britain, I can see why you wonder at my concern... I repeat: I do understand that 'good works' are being done by some...or even many, if you prefer, but the following quote illustrates MY point.

from this site

"A missionary in a rural area of Indian writes: "A village worker, doctor, or nurse, must be first and foremost an evangelist. If she has only her professional abilities to offer, she will soon become discouraged and defeated in the face of the apathy, indifference, and ignorance." Evangelism includes service, but it is more than service. The missionary who has been gripped by the thrill of evangelism knows the power of the Gospel to convert and redeem."

This IS a quite common attitude. It IS making the basic point of service to be evangelism, even though 'good' is being done. The group who suggests that even modern Japan 'needs' Christianity doesn't even make much attempt at 'service', assuming I suppose, that being converted IS a good all by itself.

It is not necessary to "give way on the value of christian volunteers" to also understand that the primary value should be on the 'volunteer' aspect, and that far too many use that to promote their religion. The Mennonites I saw in Kansas understood that...would that other groups did!

---

06 Mar 09 - 01:29 PM (#2582739)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

Neither evangelical nor fundamentalist.

From interview in The Guardian:

The community nurse, who lives in Weston-super-Mare and carries out home visits, has been suspended by North Somerset primary care trust and could lose her job. Petrie, a Baptist who has two children, said she had not forced her beliefs on anyone, but had simply asked if the woman would like a prayer said for her.

She said: "I'm not angry, and I understand if people don't believe in the way that I do. But I am upset because I enjoy this job and it [prayer] is a valuable part of the care I give.

"I became a Christian 10 years ago after my mother died. My faith got stronger and I realised God was doing amazing things in my life. I saw my patients suffering and as I believe in the power of prayer, I began asking them if they wanted me to pray for them. They are absolutely delighted."

She said she had seen her supplications have real effects on patients, including a Catholic woman whose urine infection cleared up days after she said a prayer.

---

06 Mar 09 - 01:34 PM (#2582742)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

She did not express fundamentalist views and was not trying to convert patients.

---

06 Mar 09 - 02:34 PM (#2582786)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D

and the difference between 'fundamentalist' and just 'plain' Christian is crucial? Offering your religious beliefs in that context is just not appropriate.
As I mentioned earlier, hospitals usually have spiritual help available for anyone who asks. A nurse can pray silently, (I am assured God will hear) but unless specifically requested should stick to nursing.

---

06 Mar 09 - 03:09 PM (#2582798)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

Bill, most would agree with your fundamentalist views.
Nurse Petrie's employers do not.
From The TimesFebruary 7, 2009

In a statement last night, North Somerset Primary Care Trust said that it recognised Mrs Petrie had been acting in the "best interests of her patients", that nurses did not have to "set aside their faith" in the workplace and could "continue to offer high quality care for patients while remaining committed to their beliefs". The trust also admitted that, for some, prayer is recognised as an "integral part of health care and the healing process".

---

06 Mar 09 - 03:10 PM (#2582800)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

Should read
Bill, most would NOT agree with your....

---

06 Mar 09 - 03:31 PM (#2582817)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D

Hmmm... interesting. The quote you present did not specifically deal with whether she, or other nurses, should alter how they 'ask' or 'suggest' prayer to patients.

All 3 quotes seem to skirt the issue. You can agree with them (as I do agree with their basic thrust) and still not come to terms with the basic issue.
I wonder who spoke to whom about it all.
I never thought that it should be necessary to fire her...just to address certain behavior.

---

06 Mar 09 - 03:51 PM (#2582835)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

But, after due consideration, her employers found no fault with her behaviour.
Yours seems to be an extreme opinion.

---

06 Mar 09 - 03:59 PM (#2582837)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P

Keith, what makes you think that most would not agree with Bill's views? I certainly agree with them.

And calling him a fundamentalist is a specious semantic reversal. It reminds me of all the folks that say atheists have a religion. Just stop it. It doesn't add anything to any discussion.

---

06 Mar 09 - 04:43 PM (#2582860)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie

All this kicking of shins reminds me of years ago when a new 'girl' was hired at work. I quickly caught on that she was aggressively espousing her views to everyone so I was ready when one day she asked, appropo of nothing:

'Ebbie', are you saved?

I looked at her in silence for a moment then said, I consider that question extremely rude and I advise you to stop it immediately.

She said not another word.


It ensued a few weeks later that her father who had been hired as the preacher/director of some kind of smalll church absconded with the money and the family left town forthwith. I ended up feeling bad for her; there was no way that she was responsible for her father's crookedness.

---

06 Mar 09 - 05:03 PM (#2582872)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Slag

OK, I've resisted 'til now. Ain't it amazing what a wonderful work that kindly women began with a simple, well intentioned offer to appeal to the Divine on behalf of a women with an infirmity? Because of the boldness (?!) of her faith and a concern in her heart for those she has the charge of caring for physical needs, she offered to pray. That is not a new and strange idea here in the Western world. It is a scene repeated thousands of times each and every day.

Look at the discussion we are having! Some here have shared the hope they have in God. Some have affirmed the power of positive thinking. Some have shared experiences of healing, do to the same, or at least an uplifting of their spirits. And some have been downright hostile to the idea. Some have perceived this as a foisting off some pernicious religion or cultic entanglement. Simply amazing!

---

06 Mar 09 - 08:01 PM (#2582965)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker

As I live in the West Country,
not too far from where this all happened;
I find it quite amusing to watch the last episode
of BBC3 comedy drama series "Being Human"
A key scene, set in a Bristol Hospital..
the Resident Chaplain offers bedside prayer
to a seriously injured trauma patient vampire
and his emotionally distraught werewolf friend.
What happens next might have been an equally provocative inspiration
for a 'serious' mudcat discussion.
In the light of real exents,
this fiction set so close to home
is all rather too surreal !!!!???


[probably still available on BBC3 watch again..]

---

06 Mar 09 - 08:27 PM (#2582979)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John on the Sunset Coast

My wife used to take art classes. A woman of a mainstream Christian faith somehow found out my wife was Jewish. She shared that a son-in-law was Jewish also.

One day this woman brought my wife a book of prayers, which my wife took and thanked her for. Each prayer, at the end of it referenced Christianity or a link to Jesus. I suggested - you don't tell my wife - that she return the book, but she didn't want to hurt her feelings.

Over the next few weeks this she gave my wife magazines and other Messianic Jewish literature, and began telling her about he SiL's relationship with Jesus.. The light dawned. At the next class she returned all the books, magazines and tracts, and explained she was happy with her Jewishness, but thanked the woman for thinking of her. The woman never spoke to her again during the whole time they were in the class together.

I had a Born Again customer who asked me if I was "right with God?" I told him I was right with God in my way, just as he was right with God in his way. I told him that I didn't talk politics or religion with my customers. We never did again. A couple of years later, when I had changed territories, I met him again at a sales open house. He asked me the same question. I gave the same basic answer, to which he said, "I'm not your customer anymore." He didn't miss a chance.

---

06 Mar 09 - 08:53 PM (#2582995)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker

oops.. I forgot to mention the werewolf was Jewish

[actualy quite an astute and well written series for older teens
and middle aged fantasy horror fans]

---

06 Mar 09 - 09:44 PM (#2583021)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing

There are a lot of us who have posted about our own experiences with positive thinking, etc. who would never impose those on someone for whom we were caring in a nursing capacity. Hang in there, Bill, several of us agree with your take on this case.

punkfolkrocker...you canNOT just drop some tantalising bits and leave us to wonder!**bg** Which episode was it, please??!! I have found some online, but want to watch that one, esp.! Thanks!

---

06 Mar 09 - 09:45 PM (#2583022)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing

Well, feck that...I just tried to watch one of the episode and it is ONLY available to watch in the UK. Wonder if I can go through an anonymiser which is in the UK?! I see there are some small bits on youtube.

---

06 Mar 09 - 10:02 PM (#2583033)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D

" Messianic Jewish literature, .. ???

Was this "Jews for Jesus" literature? I had the bad fortune to be on a city bus one day years ago when some guy got on, waited till the bus started, then whipped out a worn bible and began preaching "Jews for Jesus" theory at everyone in the rear of the bus.
I will give him credit for guts, because several people were very close to throwing him off the bus after 10 minutes of this. I got off soon thereafter.

Had almost forgotten that......

---

06 Mar 09 - 10:03 PM (#2583035)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker

hi kat..

episode 6, the series finale....

more intelligent script than usual for this type of 'pop' entertainment.

[ahem.. torrent ???..]


..its certainly a definite & positive test of the chaplains faith..


.. wonder how our local celebrity 'prayer nurse'
and the Hospital Admin board
would have coped in that situation...?????

---

07 Mar 09 - 01:30 AM (#2583087)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: katlaughing

Thanks, pfr.:-)

---

07 Mar 09 - 05:56 AM (#2583162)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

John P,
Keith, what makes you think that most would not agree with Bill's views? I certainly agree with them.

This story only hit the news because the media recognised that the action against the nurse would be considered exraordinary by most people.
That is what made it news.
There followed an outpouring of public opinion which led to the nurse being reinstated, with a statement that she had done nothing wrong which was a rebuke to her accusers.

Your average atheist would not be disturbed by a nurse who, after tending to his needs, aked if he would like a prayer.
Bill would have insisted that her bosses "addressed" her behaviour.
I think that is an extreme point of view.
Like a fundamentalist.

---

07 Mar 09 - 06:17 AM (#2583168)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: punkfolkrocker

"This story only hit the news because the media recognised that the action against the nurse would be considered exraordinary by most people.
That is what made it news."

errmm.. which media would that be than..???

not the right wing 'moral majority' sponsored and owned
global corporate 'god fearing' media
by any chance..

g'night...

---

07 Mar 09 - 06:26 AM (#2583169)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

Your average atheist would not be disturbed by a nurse who, after tending to his needs, aked if he would like a prayer.

Bullshit. Most people would be dumbfounded by such an obvious abuse of a professional position - any more than if the nurse were offer a blow-job.

---

07 Mar 09 - 06:27 AM (#2583170)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: punkfolkrocker

BTW.. I live in the area this happened..
And I'm certainly very concious of the local politics
and dominant conservative culture
that would 'encourage' our local health authority officials
to resign themselves that a tactical withdrawal might be their best
face saving tactic..
under such pressure..

---

07 Mar 09 - 07:30 AM (#2583195)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Backwoodsman

PFR - your stuff is
very hard reading because you
insist on putting
it in very short and
staccato
pieces which have the line
breaks in the wrong
places.

Do to speak like
that? Or have
you a desire to be
recognised as some kind
of
poet? LO
L!

---

07 Mar 09 - 07:50 AM (#2583205)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Leadfingers

I never imagined this thread would run like this when I started it !

---

07 Mar 09 - 07:51 AM (#2583206)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Leadfingers

And 500!!

---

07 Mar 09 - 08:49 AM (#2583226)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

So now offer of a prayer is equivalent to offer of a blowjob.

This shows how rational some of the Mudcat atheists are. Perhaps they had best stay on Mudcat when expressing such views. I wonder what their neighbors would say if they ventured this to them. Folkies have a reputation for, among other things, a strong allegiance to the "looney Left".   This appears to be Exhibit A--or perhaps just one in an amazingly long list.

Obviously there is no such thing as an "average atheist" or "average" anything--so it's a pointless expression.   However, I 've already told you about my wife, who calls herself an atheist, and when she was in hospital, declined to participate in a prayer, but when asked if the nurse could pray for her elsewhere, said fine. Like Kendall, she feels that "any positive energy is good".   As any rational person would.

By the way, Sin, how's it going? I call you Sin, just as you can call me Ron. I'd think your Sinister Supporter would be a bit uncomfortable. Most men would want a "Dexter Supporter" also.   But whatever floats your boat.

It's more than a bit startling--though perhaps it shouldn't be--this is Mudcat--that a full month after the decision in the nurse's favor, and a month after I suggested it was time for Mudcatters to admit that common sense had prevailed, some Mudcatters show no signs of even a glimmer of common sense.   If one can't tell the difference between an offer of prayer and evangelizing--or the Spanish Inquisition-- it doesn't look likely that sense will prevail on Mudcat any time soon in this matter.

Admittedly we have had some entertaining digressions in various Mudcatters' fantasies--on Hitler, for instance. And to hear about the dangers of "unhealthy knowledge".    It's amazing that some people who no doubt see themselves as "freethinkers" can be better described as non-thinkers. Always interesting to hear a "free-thinker" endorse ignorance. That in itself is just about worth the price of admission. Perhaps that's the new improved atheism. Sounds like it would fit right into one of the late lamented Jerry Falwell's congregations.

But, as Keith quoted from the article about the settlement, for some, prayer is considered an "integral part of the healing process". And if an ailing Mudcatter, confronted with the terrible danger of having a nurse pray for him or her, feels it is not part of his or her healing process, that Mudcatter can always tell the nurse in attendance to "stuff your superstition", or whatever charming phrase you may care to use. I'm sure the nurse will not inflict a prayer upon you.   Except possibly in private. And be aware you are in grave danger of that insidious crime. But please don't lose more than a few weeks of sleep over it. Unless you have to.

But the fact remains that for some, prayer is welcomed. So it was a reasonable offer--as the Trust has recognized.   Since evidently common sense is more easily found there than on Mudcat.

Indeed, only the more stubborn--not to say rabid, of course--perish the thought--anti-religion Mudcattters (and some professional debaters) seem to be still objecting. Actually their number-- a month after the fact--is impressive.

But never let it be said that Mudcatters are deterred by anything as mundane as common sense from righteous bellyaching--ad nauseam, so to speak.

Though it is a bit too bad that these Mudcatters can't summon up comparable enthusiasm to actually address a significant issue--and actually improve the world.

---

07 Mar 09 - 10:12 AM (#2583275)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Riginslinger

Living in a smorgasbord society like we have in the US, that allows one to pick one's religion, there's no reason to suspect that the nurse and the patient will both be addicted to the same religion. What if the nurse was a practitioner of Voodoo, and the patient woke up to find the medical professional sacraficing a chicken?

---

07 Mar 09 - 10:16 AM (#2583277)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

"...sacrificing a chicken". Please be sure to let us know when that happens to you. Should be a good story.

It's actually just a bit more likely than a Christian prayer will be offered. And if you don't desire it, you should be able to gracefully decline the offer. Hope it's not too much of a strain.

---

07 Mar 09 - 10:18 AM (#2583278)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

"...more likely that a Christian prayer..."

---

07 Mar 09 - 10:38 AM (#2583288)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

What ever you think about the ownership of the media, they will not publish stuff that is not news.
Had the nurse been suspended for failing in her duties or some misdmeanour it would not be a story.
They ran it because they knew it would surprise people, and it did.
Bill said "Bullshit. Most people would be dumbfounded by such an obvious abuse of a professional position - any more than if the nurse were offer a blow-job. "
Well no they would not, and they were not.
The patient herself was not.
They were dumbfounded at her treatment.
You are entitled to your views, but do not kid your self that they are representative even of atheists.
Only among the fundamentalist atheists who have been venting their intolerance here.

---

07 Mar 09 - 11:56 AM (#2583314)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P

"So now offer of a prayer is equivalent to offer of a blowjob."

Ron, if you think that was what Sinister meant (it certainly isn't what he said), then you need a course in remedial reading. And thinking. And debating. And common sense. It certainly decreases your value as a conversationalist.

We all know that a vast majority of the people in our society are Christian. That doesn't make it OK for them to impose themselves on others, but most non-Christians have unpleasant experiences of that. And I say this as someone who loves many Christians dearly -- I am not anti-Christian. We all also know that an organization faced with media-inspired religious fervor has no choice, in our society, but to back down.

If you think the article that started this discussion wasn't written with a media-inspired religious frenzy in mind, then you REALLY need a course in remedial reading.

---

07 Mar 09 - 12:13 PM (#2583318)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

"The media- induced religious frenzy" is in the mind of the rather imaginative poster.

The intolerance of some Mudcat atheists--a perfect pairing to Falwell, etc.-- is real--and obvious to any objective observer. The imaginative poster is no doubt concerned about "unhealthy knowledge" also--and a member in good standing of the "freethinkers"--who thinks you should be free to express yourself--unless said poster thinks it's "unhealthy".

And he appears to be yet another Mudcatter who can't tell the difference between a offer ot pray and a "violation". Fortunately, outside of Mudcat, he's in the distinct minority--and obviously feels threatened by that.   Pobrecito.

It's interesting that "freethinkers" have no problem being just as bigoted as any Bible Belt fundamentalist.

No surprise however that they refuse to recognize it.

---

07 Mar 09 - 12:16 PM (#2583321)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

"any more than if....blow job". It's the poster who didn't read it right.   Not since he can't read it-- but since he refuses to read it.

---

07 Mar 09 - 12:18 PM (#2583323)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

And as I said, if you don't want the prayer, you should be able to--gracefully--decline it.

Without whining about "violation".

---

07 Mar 09 - 01:34 PM (#2583367)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D

"Bill said "Bullshit...."

Bill most certainly did not....just because you don't like my reasoning, you even attribute other's posts to me?

And, by the way....I am NOT a "fundamentalist atheist".

People who just happen to disagree with your position, Keith, get labeled kinda heavily.

---

07 Mar 09 - 01:37 PM (#2583369)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

Sorry Bill.
That was SS.

---

07 Mar 09 - 02:01 PM (#2583381)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

Ron Davies, IMO there is absolutely no justifiable place for personal criticisms directed at 'Sinister Supporter' or 'Insane Beard' or whatever handle he prefers to use (as is his perogative). Disagreeing strongly with someone is one thing, but there can be no justification for descending into slagging someone off, simply for expressing views which you do not happen to share.
And despite your somewhat bizzare and unprovoked continued campagn of vitriol directed at this individual on this thread, I hope that you (and indeed others here) have noticed that at not one time, has he descended to your level of 'debate' and responded to your comments about him, in kind.
In fact I'm pretty surprised at the degree of restraint he demonstrates when responding to your unrelenting ad hominem attacks.

---

07 Mar 09 - 09:22 PM (#2583633)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Riginslinger

'"And he appears to be yet another Mudcatter who can't tell the difference between a offer ot pray and a "violation".'


          An offer ot pray is a violation...

---

08 Mar 09 - 05:05 AM (#2583717)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

Do you really believe an offer of prayer is a violation?
What other recognised violations would you compare it to?

---

08 Mar 09 - 08:50 AM (#2583804)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John MacKenzie

Gosh, is this silly thread still going?

---

08 Mar 09 - 09:21 AM (#2583821)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

"Sleepy Rosie", another courageous soul on Mudcat, perhaps objects to atheists being compared to Bible Belt fundamentalists. The shoe seems to fit perfectly.

If her objection is based on something else, please be so good as to give direct quotes--as I do. Perhaps she'd like to comment on "unhealthy knowledge", also, though I have no idea if she also endorses ignorance as a answer to questions, as at least one Mudcat atheist does.

Religious feeling in the UK turns out to be a complex subject.   I'd welcome any correction of the theory I am about to put forth, since, obviously, I'm not a UK citizen. But any correction should include facts.

Religious feeling in the UK turns out to be a complex subject.   According to the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance, which relied on a "government report", 74% of adults in the UK see themselves as Christians (3-2008).   But of that 74%, only about 7% actually attend church regularly. I have no idea how reliable either of these statistics are, since they are based on a "government report".

The BBC (28 Nov 2000) says a poll by National Centre of Social Research indicated 44% of the 3,000 surveyed said they had no religious affiliation.

Again, it's hard to know if this report has any validity.   I'd welcome a more reliable source for an answer.

However, if the BBC survey had an value at all, you could be sure the 44% did not attend church regularly. And of the 56% remainder, even if most of them might be seen as Christian, there must be Jews and Moslems also.

Of the 56%, it's likely only a small percentage actually attended church regularly.

By either of these, the number of UK adults who would be seen by an objective observer as "strongly Christian" is very small, probably under 5% of the adult population. Any better figure would be welcome.

But if these surveys have any validity whatsoever, even if all the strong Christians in the UK protested vehemently against the threat to the nurse, it's hard to see how they would have the power to cause a "religious frenzy".   They would be drowned out by the overwhelming majority of the population which is not strongly Christian.

So the pressure to reinstate the nurse must include many who would not see themselves as strong Christians.   Or does the tiny minority of the population which is strongly Christian dictate to the rest of the population which is not?

It seems that if there were general public pressure to reinstate the nurse, many who are not "strong Christians" would be part of it.

So the "religious frenzy" must be something else. Two obvious candidates are a general sense of decency and common sense.

It would not be surprising if atheist Mudcatters do not recognize this.

---

08 Mar 09 - 09:36 AM (#2583832)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Riginslinger

"...the number of UK adults who would be seen by an objective observer as "strongly Christian" is very small, probably under 5% of the adult population."

             There certainly seems to be more than 5% of the posters on this thread jumping all over the rational thinkers, so there must be something wrong with the way the report is describing "strongly Christian."

---

08 Mar 09 - 09:48 AM (#2583836)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

Sorry the poster does not like logic. Perhaps that's another characteristic of the new atheism.

---

08 Mar 09 - 12:23 PM (#2583908)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie

Good grief, Ron. You've made your point.

---

08 Mar 09 - 03:53 PM (#2584037)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P

OK, Ron, you want quotes. Here are some from you, along with explanations of why they are rude:

"The media- induced religious frenzy" is in the mind of the rather imaginative poster."

Two problems here: 1) you are talking about me in the third person, using a disparaging nickname. I'm a member and my name is on my post. Common courtesy says you should answer me if you want to answer me, and not call me names if you want to be taken seriously. You've since done the same thing to Sleepy Rosie. 2) Instead of actually responding to what I said, you called me delusional. This is what is known as an ad hominem attack.

More from you:
"The intolerance of some Mudcat atheists--a perfect pairing to Falwell, etc.-- is real--and obvious to any objective observer. The imaginative poster is no doubt concerned about "unhealthy knowledge" also--and a member in good standing of the "freethinkers"--who thinks you should be free to express yourself--unless said poster thinks it's "unhealthy".

The problem here is that you are making a series of assumptions about my spiritual, philosophical, and intellectual life from the basis of absolutely no knowledge, except that I don't think health-care providers should offer to share their religious faith with their patients. As a matter of fact, you are more wrong than right in about the things you listed in that paragraph.

And you keep right on: "And he appears to be yet another Mudcatter who can't tell the difference between a offer ot pray and a "violation". Fortunately, outside of Mudcat, he's in the distinct minority--and obviously feels threatened by that.   Pobrecito."

Here, aside from more gratuitous insults and calling me baby, you are saying that the majority should decide what is right and what is wrong. That kind of thinking is somewhere on the slippery slope to civil rights abuses and worse. I'm now imagining you thinking, "Aha, he things an offer of prayer is the same as slavery." Please disabuse yourself of the notion before you engage your fingers. The reason I'm imagining that, since you want examples, is your response to Sinister Supporter when he made a similar comment. Perhaps, instead, you should notice that (I think) every actual medical professional who has chimed in has said there there are professional ethics rules that say it's a bad idea to bring your religion to work. Do you think they do that because a majority of the population would feel uncomfortable with it? Or is it just possible that being confronted by someone in a position of authority over you who is professing strong religious belief -- of any kind -- can be easily construed as having pressure brought to bear to follow in their faith, or at least the outward forms of it? And we're not talking a fanciful, imaginative fear of that, either; as I said, most of us who are not Christians have had unpleasant examples of being treated badly because we are not Christians. A few examples are gossip at work, not getting a job because of not professing belief at the right point in the conversation, police officers trying "save" people they stop on the street. The list goes on and on.


The reason I go through all this again is to demonstrate that good, intelligent, thoughtful people can come down on another side of an issue from you. You should keep that in mind, instead of saying things like:

"It's interesting that "freethinkers" have no problem being just as bigoted as any Bible Belt fundamentalist."

Best,
John

---

08 Mar 09 - 03:57 PM (#2584041)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Peace

Here's a picture of the nurse suspended for praying, fyi.

---

08 Mar 09 - 04:07 PM (#2584050)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D

She obviously has her heart in the right place......I think she should be given a 2nd chance.....or maybe a Barbie outfit.

---

08 Mar 09 - 04:26 PM (#2584063)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie

Thanks, Peace. I had wondered about the correct procedure.

---

08 Mar 09 - 10:38 PM (#2584306)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

I get most of my info on the Holocaust from my Mom, who was there.

I'll look up some of his speeches.

---

08 Mar 09 - 10:44 PM (#2584310)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

OK, I googled "hitler's speeches" and got this on the top page:
    The Christianity of Hitler revealed in his speeches and proclamations

    Compiled by Jim Walker
    Originated: 27 Feb. 1997
    Additions: 03 Jun. 2006

    Through subterfuge and concealment, many of today's Church leaders and faithful Christians have camouflaged the Christianity of Adolf Hitler and have attempted to mark him an atheist, a pagan cult worshipper, or a false Christian. However, from the earliest formation of the Nazi party and throughout the period of conquest and growth, Hitler expressed his Christian support to the German citizenry and soldiers. In the 1920s, Hitler's German Workers' Party (pre Nazi term) adopted a "Programme" with twenty-five points (the Nazi version of a constitution). In point twenty-four, their intent clearly demonstrates, from the very beginning, their stand in favor of a "positive" Christianity:

        24. We demand liberty for all religious denominations in the State, so far as they are not a danger to it and do not militate against the morality and moral sense of the German race. The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession. It combats the Jewish-materialist spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health from within only on the principle: the common interest before self-interest.

    Hitler's speeches and proclamations, even more clearly, reveal his faith and feelings toward a Christianized Germany. Nazism presents an embarrassment to Christianity and demonstrates the danger of faith. The following words from Hitler show his disdain for atheism, and pagan cults, and reveals the strength of his Christian feelings:

    My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.

    -Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

Now, let's see you back up your assertions.

---

08 Mar 09 - 11:20 PM (#2584328)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Slag

Excellent Peace! Priceless! I had a great laugh from that.
PFR, I didn't know Meatloaf (or is it Meat Loaf?) was Jewish!
RD, XLNT as always.
Bill D, ditto, and I mean that in the non- Limbaugh-ian most way.
John on the Sunset Coast, I really like you and your thoughtful posts and refreshing view of things. The fact that you are Jewish doesn't bother me one whit. I hope you could feel the same about my Christianity. Some people let their RELIGION get in the road of just being people. I mean, why should someone's religion be a show stopper? And why should any one's atheism shut down communication? And why, after mauling a subject to death, can't we move on to other topics?

---

08 Mar 09 - 11:25 PM (#2584331)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

I'm sorry, Ebbie, I really would like to drop this. After all, it was decided--against the atheist viewpoint--over a month ago.   But there's still an amazing amount of drivel being spouted by people who don't like the decision.

Anybody who thinks Hitler's speeches prove anything other than that he was diabolical--willing to say anything in public to get his way-- is, sorry, delusional.   As well as being a poor reader. I noted the point about Hitler's speeches earlier, if you had taken the time to read.   Your wishful thinking that Hitler had been a Christian is exactly that--after about age 7.

Do you believe what a public figure says in public or what he says in private--if the two completely contradict each other, as they do with Hitler in this case.   In other words, how naive are you?

And have you found any more "unhealthy knowledge"?   Sure is striking that that is precisely the phrase arch-bigots would use about somebody who wanted to teach Darwin.



Also: people don't seem to like it when I name Mudcatters by name. And they don't like it when I don't. That about covers the possibilities, seems to me. So, since there is nothing to gain by changing, I will continue as before.



It is also interesting that despite my civil requests for better information on religious belief in the UK, nobody has come up with any actual facts which contradict mine.
So it appears, that as I said, the "religious frenzy" is in the mind of the poster--the depth of common sense in the UK--not any kind of "frenzy"-- has overcome the intolerant atheist viewpoint seen amply on Mudcat.

When our family used to go to church, my father, as he left the church, would ask the minister about the logical fallacies in his sermon. Seems like a reasonable role.

So I suppose you'd say it's a family tradition to poke holes in pretensions. And Lord knows, Mudcat atheists offer plenty of twaddle and pretensions. But it's amazingly easy--with "violation", "unhealthy knowledge", "religious frenzy", etc, it's fairly obvious that the claim of Mudcat atheists to be reasonable, logical people falls under the rubric of "flimsy pretension".

Let's see: against logic, afraid of "unhealthy knowledge", unwilling to think--sounds like some Bible Belt fundamentalists--or many Mudcat atheists--all except Amos and Bill D. Somewhat amazing in highly educated, (mostly) articulate people.   But perhaps it's part of the new atheism.

---

08 Mar 09 - 11:27 PM (#2584332)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

Obviously there is no criticism of Ebbie intended.

---

08 Mar 09 - 11:51 PM (#2584344)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

Oh yes, one more thing about the reasonable nature of Mudcat atheists: I forgot the charmer whose standard greeting to unexpected visitors is : "Fuck off."

---

08 Mar 09 - 11:51 PM (#2584345)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Riginslinger

Unfortunately for Christians, it doesn't make sense the way they're trying to frame it. Looking at the bigots we have in present day culture, there is no way somebody could be as diabolical as Hitler without being addicted to some ancient superstition or another--cocaine wouldn't do it--and if he started out Catholic... In the words of Ron Davies, "If the shoe fits..."

---

08 Mar 09 - 11:54 PM (#2584346)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

Right. Anything you say. Since Hitler started off Catholic, this explains his crimes.   I rest my case on the reasonable nature of Mudcat atheists.

---

09 Mar 09 - 01:47 AM (#2584393)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Slag

What's wrong with this picture?

    Christian= Nazi
    Christian= bigot
    Christian=closed mind
    Christian=prejudice
    Christian= all that's wrong in the world
    ad nauseum

If you say "nothing" then you are saying something about yourself. I consider myself a "fundamentalist" in that there are certain fundamentals which pertain to the faith of a Christian. Some of these beliefs readers might find distasteful or offensive. It doesn't change my beliefs whether you do or don't. Nothing of what I believe would prevent me from engaging any of you in an honest dialog. Isn't that what you might call an open mind? We all have anchor points from which we draw reference for things perceived. This is how we draw meaning and purpose in life. Your lost without them. Does that make YOU a fundamentalist? I think, maybe, YES! It's just that your fundamentals are perhaps, different from mine. When we don't let the fundamentals get in the road of communication and understanding then we are getting somewhere.

---

09 Mar 09 - 11:50 AM (#2584707)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P

Guest Slag,
Of course your picture is all wrong. With one or two sad exemptions, I don't know of anyone who believes any of that. What's your point? Do you really think there are a lot of people running around who feel that way?

Here's a quote from you that, for me, brings this whole conversation into focus:

"Nothing of what I believe would prevent me from engaging any of you in an honest dialog."

If you are a private citizen offering to chat with me about religion, I'll either engage with you or tell you to go away. If you are a medical professional doing it on the job, if you are a teacher doing it to a student, if you are a police officer doing it to someone you just stopped, if you are a politician doing it to a constituent, I'll do my best to get you fired.

Can you understand the difference between being a Christian and forcing your beliefs on unsuspecting people over whom you are in a position of authority? Are you saying that telling a religious person that it is inappropriate to practice their religion in any and all situations is in some way discriminatory against Christians?

---

09 Mar 09 - 12:52 PM (#2584764)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

Right, Ron. In other words, since you can't argue with facts, you're going to stoop to insults. Again, I might add.
All I've been saying all along is that you can't count Hitler among the atheist dictators, since his regime was religious, his arguments were religious, and his genocide was religious... whether he was a believer after age 7, as you claim without any substantiation, or not. So, sustain your argument, would you? Who was it who said arguing knowledge is more fun, if you have facts to throw at each other?

---

09 Mar 09 - 01:20 PM (#2584797)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P

Ron, you seem to be seeing this as a discussion of atheism vs. religion. It's not. It's about whether or not it is ethical for people in positions of authority to bring their religious beliefs to work.

Assuming that anyone who doesn't think so is an atheist is a remarkable stretch, for someone who keeps demanding facts. If you want facts, you might consider doing some research about whether or not there are professional codes of conduct for medical providers that cover this.

By the way, you're still referring to people who are present in the third person. Is this some sort of attempt to make it sound like the rest of the world is on your side, and you are just expressing your amazement about the delusional minority to a more rational majority? Whatever the reason, it's still rude.

---

09 Mar 09 - 02:13 PM (#2584835)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: frogprince

I think that the last time anything was dragged to death, and then dragged this much further, was after someone tried to clarify a thread title a little for everyone's convenience.

---

09 Mar 09 - 04:09 PM (#2584936)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Peace

If you think THIS is bad, try some of the 'what is folk' type threads. They make this look like a walk in the park.

---

09 Mar 09 - 04:20 PM (#2584953)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Wesley S

Make that a what is Traditional Folk music thread and it will last ever longer.

Ot start a thread titled - What's up with Ireland?

---

09 Mar 09 - 05:14 PM (#2585013)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

John P.
I would hate anyone, Christian or other, to push their beliefs on me at work, in hospital, street or anywhere.
So far we agree.
That is good right?
Your last post said, " It's about whether or not it is ethical for people in positions of authority to bring their religious beliefs to work."
You object. I don't. It is part of their personality.
I see the crucifix or the veil or the turban.
Fine.
They ask if I want a prayer and most religions I will decline.
If they persisted I would have a problem.
Otherwise not. It is called tolerance.

This nurse just asked once and immediately let if go.
The patient had no problem. I think most of us could cope with that.

---

09 Mar 09 - 05:20 PM (#2585019)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Peace

'" It's about whether or not it is ethical for people in positions of authority to bring their religious beliefs to work."'

Well, priests and ministers do . . . .

---

09 Mar 09 - 05:21 PM (#2585021)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

Ah, but why tolerate superstition in a medical situation?

---

09 Mar 09 - 05:23 PM (#2585024)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Peace

Why not? We tolerate lotsa shit these days from PC crap to crooked government to manipulation by multi-nationals.

---

09 Mar 09 - 06:03 PM (#2585073)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe

I've kept away from this thread since it's turned into Ron Davis assuming virtually everyone else is an atheist and insulting them for it... but this question occurs to me, asked of those who think health and social care professionals bringing their private belief systems onto the job is a good and sensible thing: when is it not okay? Who shouldn't do it? Or do you extend your invitation to make the private public to all shades of religious, political and cultural opinion, and to all client/patient/service user groups no matter how vulnerable or powerless?

I ask this as a health and social care practitioner who keeps his personal views private on the job as a matter of ethical and professional good practice.

---

09 Mar 09 - 07:13 PM (#2585141)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P

Keith of Hertford,
Thanks for the reasonable post. Here are some hypothetical questions for you:
If you ended up in court for some reason, and the judge started by asking you if you were a Christian, and you weren't, would you feel that the judge was asking you an inappropriate question? Given that there are large segments of the population who have proved they are not tolerant of non-Christians (you might just have to take my word for that), would you feel worried about the level of impartiality the judge would bring to your case? Mind you, I'm not saying the judge would necessarily be lacking in impartiality, but having been asked the question, wouldn't you wonder about it?

Another example: You go into the emergency room with a serious injury. The first thing the doctor says is "Let's pray for your return to health". You then say, "I'm not a Christian". Are you left wondering if you have just insulted someone who is about to cut you open or sew you up, or whatever? Do you worry about how rational and tolerant this particular person is? Again, keep in mind that many non-Christians have been discriminated against - if only by being insulted - in large or small ways for their lack of belief.

Of course I don't get upset when people talk about their faith and they don't in any way have my fate in their hands. If they do have my fate in their hands, should I lie and pretend to believe so I don't upset them? How do I know, with strangers, who is going to be intolerant and who isn't? If they are wearing a cross or a veil or some other outward sign of belief, again, no problem. If they ask me to join them in praying or ask about my religion, there's a big problem, one of perception if nothing else.

---

10 Mar 09 - 02:15 AM (#2585320)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Slag

John P, obviously you are not an American citizen. Here in America our Constitution has 10 amendments we call the Bill of Rights. In the very first amendment it states (emphasis, mine) that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, OR PROHIBITING the FREE EXERCISE thereof; or ABRIDGING the FREEDOM of SPEECH, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

This allows us to freely engage in dialog with any who are interested as well as allowing us to DISENGAGE if we want no part of it. No harm no foul. Now if someone is, say, a captive audience such as a person in a hospital then they would have the right to make the persistent evangelical to buzz off. That doesn't seem to apply in this case as it was an inquiry if the ailing person might desire to have another petition her god to the end of healing that person. A courteous "No thank you!" and the transaction is over and done. Had the nurse persisted then, yes, disciplinary measures should be taken.

I can engage anyone in a discussion of anything mutually agreeable to the both of us. If I am on the job, I don't cease being a person and I don't necessarily surrender my rights. If nothing else I can suggest contact outside of the place of employment. Again, it all depends upon the listener's response. Whenever a "NO!" is encountered, that ends it. Same with "I demand to see an attorney!" no further questioning may continue. Works for me. Get real.

One of my favorite quotes comes from the movie "The Princess Bride". The Dread Pirate Roberts states "Life is pain and if anyone says different, they are selling something." Think of all the annoying commercial advertisements on the TV and radio, the mail and magazines. They are all selling something and no one is up in arms about that! Philosophers, gurus and Christians are also selling something, a belief system, a way of thinking or someone or something to put your faith in. That's all. "Yes, tell me more" or "No thank you!" Get a little fresh air. It may help you to relax.

---

10 Mar 09 - 04:10 AM (#2585339)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

John P, in your examples my reaction would again be as yours.
If the nurse had started with her offer, I would not be here defending her.
She had finished her work with the patient, done her duty, tended to all the patients physical needs.
Remember that hospitals actually employ chaplains to come and make just such offers to patients.

---

10 Mar 09 - 04:12 AM (#2585340)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe

So it would have been equally fine if the nurse was selling fascism, then, Slag? Fresh air still required? Or special dispensation for evangelists?

---

10 Mar 09 - 04:25 AM (#2585345)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

Irrelevant Spleen.
She did not sell, push or evangelise.
If she had done I would not defend her.

---

10 Mar 09 - 05:21 AM (#2585368)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe

Offering to pray with others is a form of evangelism. Evangelism - spreading the word - is seen as essential business by most of the non-denominational churches and a core duty of believers that they must carry out whenever they can. It can include anything that is in any way about sharing your religious beliefs with others - including offers of prayer. It's all about the overriding responsibility to 'save' others - whether they think they need it or not. A bit like the average Trotskyite's overriding responsibility to get people to join 'the party' whether they want to or not. And - yes - as many have pointed out, you can just say no. This is fine between private individuals but can be no part of the professional relationship between carer and cared for, unless the individual has chosen to be cared for by a private institution that specifies provision of prayer as part of what they offer.

---

10 Mar 09 - 06:22 AM (#2585400)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

Offering to pray with others is a form of evangelism.

Which is exactly why an offer to pray is a violation; it violates the fresh air of common sense and decency with the imposition of a belief system so oppressively absolute it precludes every wondrous aspect of our common humanity as being somehow sinful, thus condemning the rest of us to an eternity of ghastly torments at the hands of The Dark Fellow himself.

Evangelising Christians are violating enlightenment by the active propagation of fear, ignorance, and superstition. Furthermore, they are violating the infinite cultural and spiritual diversities of humanity by preaching that there can only ever be the ONE truth. That one such Evangelising Christian goes out in the guise of a nurse to exploit the uncertainties of the infirm with offers of prayer is a violation of the sanctity of human dignity not only enshrined in very code of conduct that she, as a health professional, is duty-bound to abide by, but which is our common and inviolable right regardless.

---

10 Mar 09 - 06:50 AM (#2585422)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Backwoodsman

"Another example: You go into the emergency room with a serious injury. The first thing the doctor says is "Let's pray for your return to health". You then say, "I'm not a Christian". Are you left wondering if you have just insulted someone who is about to cut you open or sew you up, or whatever? Do you worry about how rational and tolerant this particular person is? Again, keep in mind that many non-Christians have been discriminated against - if only by being insulted - in large or small ways for their lack of belief."

Ummmmm, ever heard of the Hippocratic Oath?

---

10 Mar 09 - 06:53 AM (#2585425)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

Another example where I agree with the atheist.
Our nurse did not do that.

---

10 Mar 09 - 10:47 AM (#2585608)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P

Keith,
The atheist? Why do you say that?

Slag,
As a matter of fact, I am an American citizen. Obviously, you are not a manager, doctor, police officer, or a member of any other profession where your boss would fire you for offering religion to those over whom you have power. I don't think I've ever said that an offer of religion was illegal or unconstitutional.

Backwoodsman,
Of course I've heard of the Hippocratic oath. Ever hear of oath breakers, or people, like our nurse, for whom God trumps everything else?

Look, the nurse knowingly broke the rules of her employment three times and got the sack. This was not news; it happens every day. The religious law center she went to helped her get her job back by, in part, getting an inflammatory newspaper article published saying that she was fired for praying. Correct, on the surface; but she was really fired for breaking a rule, in this case a rule that she must have been taught about in nursing school, and which she accepted as a part of her employment. None of us would ever have heard about it if the religious law organization didn't have, as one of its main functions, the forcing of religion into places where we, as a society, have decided it is inappropriate.

The fact that she was done with her work with the patient for the day is irrelevant: is she never going to visit that patient again? The fact that the patient didn't object as much as the other health-care professional did is also irrelevant; the other worker had enough sense to recognize an ethics violation and report it. What if her next patient had been tortured by Christians as part of the war on terror? An extreme example, I know. I could come with several dozen less extreme, but this one gets the point across.

I'm interested in whether anyone has an answer for Spleen Cringe's question: When is it OK for someone in a position of power to offer religion? Where do you draw the line? Keith, you've said that you would respond like me to my examples, but not to this instance. Where is that pesky line?

---

10 Mar 09 - 10:55 AM (#2585613)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,keith

We just have a different perception.
The nurse did not knowingly break the rules. She believed she had not.
The other worker thought she had, but it was found she had behaved properly.
The other worker felt as you do. Just about everyone else did not.
We are not going to agree.

---

10 Mar 09 - 11:05 AM (#2585619)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe

"Just about everyone else did not"

???

---

10 Mar 09 - 11:47 AM (#2585654)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P

Keith,
Here's another hypothetical case: Let's say the nurse was a pagan instead of Christian. After seeing to the patient's needs, she asks if the patient would like to help her call on the aid of the Goddess and a couple of nature spirits to cast a healing spell. Would that still be OK with you? Would the newspaper article have been written the way it was, or would it have had the opposite slant? Would she, and should she, have gotten her job back? If the situation does come up with a non-Christian religious person, should the service she works for treat her like the they did the Christian, or should she stay fired?

Really, where's the line?

---

10 Mar 09 - 12:26 PM (#2585675)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Will Fly

John P - that's precisely the point, and thanks for putting it so clearly and concisely.

---

10 Mar 09 - 12:53 PM (#2585706)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

Exactly, Keith - that's what they have chaplains *for*. That's one of the things that makes it *not* OK for a medical employee to offer prayer. I mean, the hospital has plumbers, too, and the nurse doesn't expect to unclog toilets.

I might add that the chaplain was *very* helpful to me when I was in hospital trying not to have the twins too too too prematurely (they eventually made it to 30 weeks), and even more so when I was in labor and my late ex(tra asshole) didn't show up about 12 hours... she had found out very early, of course, that I was an atheist, and offered nothing spiritual, didn't even say Well I'll pray for you but you don't have to participate at all. She just figured I was the one who needed a hand to hold right now, and she held it (metaphorically at first, then literally). I wouldn't get *her* fired either.

Then again, I'm not sure that secular comforting is out of the purview of a chaplain the way that religious comforting is out of that of a nurse. I mean, a chaplain's job is to comfort, and since they can do it nondenominationally they can do it denomination-free-ly, no?

We did, before the labor (that is while I could hold a rational conversation) *discuss* my atheism, and her faith, but it was conversational, not evangelical. We were both curious about the other. We also talked about a lot of other stuff, like how I was going to handle preemie twins in the real world.

Meanwhile, back when I was first hospitalized, the nurses had asked me if I wanted to meet another woman on our floor (the problem maternity ward) who had just had very preemie twins, one of whom was not expected to live. They just thought it might be helpful for both of us (I presume they had already asked her). I said yes, of course, and we talked a bit but very early, she said she was placing her faith in [her] god. I said well, I'm an atheist, and I'm placing my faith in the medical center and its stellar record with preemies. I thought we'd then go on and talk about our fears for our various feti and babies, but no, she couldn't get past it, and all she would talk about was how I needed to have faith in the supernatural instead. It got to where I had to tell the nurses to just her away from me, which they *completely* understood. And seemed to take as part of their job in keeping me pregnant and under the best possible *medical* care. (They were nice about it, and told her I was sleeping.)

We also had this come up when my Mom's heart surgeon found out Mom was a holocaust survivor and went all yiddish-y and god-y (which he hadn't been before!) and I had to take him outside and say cut the crap, we're atheists and we're here for a medical issue (as a biological scientist I'm the central contact with medical stuff for Mom, just as my sister the lawyer is for the legal stuff, in case you're wondering why I took it upon myself). We didn't want him *fired* but it was insulting as all getout, and it outraged Mom which was exactly what she didn't need right then, she had come for quadruple bypass surgery.

Do either of these anecdotes change anybody's mind?

---

10 Mar 09 - 02:34 PM (#2585807)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Keith A of Hertford

Re the Pagan example, I thought I had answered that.
Or Moslem, Sikh, Hindu ....
If it was a simple request I would have no problem at all.
I would welcome the caring warmth of it, and accept.
If it was a satanist I would decline, but not make an issue.

---

10 Mar 09 - 07:06 PM (#2585980)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Slag

OR THE FREE EXERCISE, THEREOF... Yes, Spleen, even Nazis and Communists in this country have the same rights as anyone else. If a nurse had invited the patient to a Nazi meeting, AGAIN, a simple "no, thank you!" would have ended the conversation.

As for the work place. When a person accepts employment they are, in a sense surrendering some of their rights for gain. You don't bad-mouth the employers product or service. You don't play games on the internet or do crossword puzzles on company time. And you don't proselytize!

You do not, however, surrender your human rights. Certain jobs cannot allow what we would call "normal social conversation". I'm sure you can think of soome situations where this might be true. "Loose lips sink ships" for instance. Many topics can come up on the work room floor and do, but it's a little more constricted when you are dealing with the public on behalf of the company. The employer has every reason to expect you to represent him or the company in all your on-the-clock dealing with said public. Some companies (and religions too) are very tight about this and you should know that upfront. If you have agreed to this as a condition of employment then you had better follow company policies or find another postion elsewhere.

Most places allow some degree of normal human interaction with the public. They may stipulate "no religion or politics" and that too is fine. If the customer intiates the topic fine! You may steer them away or agree with them or arrange a time OUTSIDE of the company's time to continue the conversation. These are all reasonable things. To say "God bless you" or "I will pray for you" are NORMAL conversational phrases. If the company STIPULATES otherwise, then you are faced with a choice.

If a pagan or wicca practioner ( and I have had friends in these religions) offered a pagan intervention on my behalf, I would thank them for their kind thoughts and offers. I might decline, I don't know. It depends on the person, conditions.

Fresh air? I have all I need and then some.

---

10 Mar 09 - 07:34 PM (#2585999)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Peace

I am not a religious person. However, in the course of emergency response I did once 'pray' with a person who was dying. It comforted that person. The person wanted to pray so we chose the "Lord's Prayer" and went for it. I see little difference between that and applying dressings to stem blood loss or plastic taped on thee sides of a square for sucking chest wounds to ensure one-way passage of air. Two-faced on my or not, I will apologize to NO one for that. Not then, not now, not ever. The prayer ranked up there with holding the hand of someone as they die. Means of giving comfort that I would do again given similar circumstances.

---

10 Mar 09 - 07:46 PM (#2586014)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

If they were dying right then and there, unquestionably, *I* might even pray with them. I actually do know The Our Father in English. Otherwise? Not in a medical situation. I might, however, offer them the chaplain. Would that go back across the line?

---

10 Mar 09 - 09:40 PM (#2586083)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Slag

That's just it Mrrzy, we are dealing with human condition. Our hearts will lead us to do the right thing, given that we are accustomed to having a tender heart for the folks. The offer of a Chaplin is a very fine compromise and as someone above pointed out, many hospitals have chaplains on hand for this situation. I have done hospital chaplaincy work myself. When people are gravely ill or dying that is no time to enter into some contentious theological debate. You are trying to render aide and comfort in any way you can. What Peace did was a right and noble thing. Here was one human being reaching out to comfort some one in their last moments on this planet and to help them focus on the one thing that gave their life meaning. I would hope that all could see this for what it is.

---

10 Mar 09 - 10:33 PM (#2586103)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Aggie Nostic

In the light of all this..
heres an interesting Documentary...


"Deborah 13: Servant of God

Documentary about 13-year-old Deborah Drapper, who, unlike other British teens has never heard of Britney Spears or Victoria Beckham. She has been brought up in a deeply Christian family and her parents have tried to make sure she and her ten brothers and sisters have grown up protected from the sins of the outside world.

Deborah is a bright, confident girl who has big ambitions for her life and the film spends a summer with her as she ventures out in the world to see what life outside her family could be and starts putting her beliefs forward to a wider audience.
Broadcast on:BBC Three, 9:00pm Tuesday 10th March 2009
Duration: 60 minutes
Available until: 9:59pm Tuesday 17th March 2009

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00j6l77/Deborah_13_Servant_of_God/


Well, this young lady doesn't miss any oportunity to actively save lost souls,
what if she's now considering a future career in nursing ?

---

11 Mar 09 - 01:55 AM (#2586157)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Slag

Gautama Siddhartha also had a sheltered life. You might say it "warped" him a little too. Christ told his disciples "as you go into the world" not as you retreat from the world. I imagine Deborah will be in for some eye openers along the way. Isolation is a terrible thing to do to a child, regardless of the motivation. Such actions are not limited to the religious prepossessed.

---

11 Mar 09 - 02:42 AM (#2586174)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Barry Finn

In my only post to this I mentioned that twice I've had priests come in to ask if I wanted them to pray for me (these were 5 yrs apart) & both times I said no, asked them to leave & thanked them for their concern. I should have mentioned that these were priests in the hospital as chaplins not employees of the hospital or care givers & they were not there at the request of relations either. Had they been health professionals I would've demanded that they no longer treat me, those questions are unethical & inapproprate & I would not have felt that they had my physical health their first priority over that of my so called soul. I am not in the least bit interested in having my soul saved but I was thinking that my body was far more in need of medical care. I stated, when fisrt asked what my religion was, when I replied none, that they allowed a priest beside my death bed, twice, was IMHO a violation in the fisrt place. They weren't allowing anyone but relations or those I requested & that they allowed in a priest, I felt bad for him, for denying him his prayer for me & I was the one dying. If I had been in better health I would have cursed him & who ever let him across the threshhold.

Barry

---

11 Mar 09 - 08:19 AM (#2586294)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

I'm sure everything you say about your own case is true, Barry, but there are several points regarding this specific case--and that is what we are, in theory, discussing.

Main point is that the woman in this case did not herself object as strenuously as you would have done.

She declined, and that should have been an end to it.

Secondary point is that many, probably the majority, would actually have had a positive reaction to her question. Even if they had themselves not been interested-- ( as my Jan--who sees herself as an atheist-- was not, for instance)-- they would have seen the offer as an example of human caring--and, in the words of both Kendall and Jan, positive energy. And both have stated directly:   "Any positive energy is good".

Therefore, it was reasonable for the nurse to ask the question. And to take no for an answer.   Both of which she did.

This incident should never have become an issue.

---

11 Mar 09 - 08:39 AM (#2586307)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

Also: re: Hitler:   It's very simple. You could believe what Hitler said in public if he threatened you. Aside from that, if you believed anything he said, you were extremely naive--and sometimes paid with your life.

Anybody who cites anything he said in a speech as establishing that his regime was religious is extremely naive. He obviously was completely self-serving in his speeches. One of the main things he tried to do was to undermine the Center (Catholic) party, by implying--falsely--that he would look out for Catholic interests, so that party was not necessary.   I recommend to you the book "Hitler's Pope"--to see how else the Center Party was undermined.

And as I pointed out earlier, if any religious figure ever opposed him--in anything--that person or persons paid for it--and often wound up in KZ--or dead.   And many did.

Those are facts. There are lots of examples, some of which I've already given on other threads. Anything else is wishful thinking

Especially since we now have direct quotes from what he said in private.   Do you, for instance, not believe he said that National Socialism and religion could not co-exist? Yes or no?

It's the poster who against all sense insists Hitler's regime was religious who needs to do some real research. Which, believe it or not, goes beyond Google.   Though even on Google there are many quotes from Hitler's private talk indicating clearly that he was not in the least religious.

---

11 Mar 09 - 10:25 AM (#2586356)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie

"If a nurse had invited the patient to a Nazi meeting, AGAIN, a simple "no, thank you!" would have ended the conversation." Slag

This is a thought that I want to pursue.

I suspect that if someone - a nurse? - invited me to a Nazi meeting I would not simply say, "No, thank you!". I would, in fact, react with outrage and fury, as in "What on earth makes you think I'd be interested in Nazis? Get your supervisor in here; i want to tell her or him that I want no Nazi taking care of me."

Knowing that is how I'd feel, is that response applicable to tihs discurssion?


At the same time, I think Peace's response to the accident victim was proper, and nicely done.

---

11 Mar 09 - 02:20 PM (#2586510)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Barry Finn

It is the nurse's job & paid duty to look after the care of the paient, physically & mentally, not spiritually, that is the relm of the Chaplin who does not come to the patient & ask, may I take your temp or change your bed pan! If that were the case than you are in the wrong hospital, under the care of the wrong professionals & you need to report them & have them replaced for the better of the staff, the hospital & most of all for those who go there seeking & expecting professional, proper care on the level that's expected & excepted within the common practice of the medical profession.

I was annoyed that 1st I was asked what my religion was, I equate that to asking me my race (as long as race has nothing to do with my medical care). It's no one's business but mine.
2nd I answered the question & then had a priest by my death bed, that's a total disreguard towards how I asnwered. OK, a last minute ditch to save a soul, I can let it go & did but to have a priest ask me while I'm dying if he could shove a thermometor up my ass & take my temp????!!!! That's pretty much what this nuse did, she overstepped her bounds & she should've been let go & not taken back, she should be workin at a religious hospital where that kind of treatment is exceptable. If one wants treatment at a religious facility that's where they go! Her reinstatment gives all the other soul savers the right to attack their future patients

Barry

---

11 Mar 09 - 06:09 PM (#2586695)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

But Barry, race can't be private, really, if you go with the simple American divisions of "white" (all-European ancestry)/"black" (*any* African ancestry)/"Asian" (anyone in the Chinese-etc. realm)/"people of color" (anyone else). It's visible.
Some believers *make* their beliefs visible with their clothing, jewelry or other accessories...

---

11 Mar 09 - 08:32 PM (#2586794)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: frogprince

Race is commonly visibly identifiable, but by no means always.

---

11 Mar 09 - 10:18 PM (#2586857)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Slag

Come on...What motivates a person to do the work of caring for other people in their infirmities? Many ARE motivated by a Christian ethic. Others by a humanistic ethic. Still others by less obvious reasons but they are all doing what most here would term "A Good Work" No? Now Ebbie, do you really think that a heartless Nazi would be involved (voluntarily) in such a humane service? It is called "hyperbole". I was using "hyperbole". I exaggerated to emphasize the fact that an individual's motivations or political leanings do not interfere with a good work being done.

Obviously the nurse believes that she is reflecting the good she has found in her faith. It would naturally follow that she might feel like sharing what she has found to be good in her life with another human. The "New Commandment" Christ gave his followers was to "love one another, even as I have loved you." And that's the thing about love, you just want to share it. If you can fault someone for that, well, I'll pray for you.

---

11 Mar 09 - 10:57 PM (#2586874)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

Offering to pray is "attacking" a patient?   There's where we part company. And it appears the majority of the UK population, though overwhelmingly not strongly Christian, also agrees that "attacking" is too strong a word--by a lot. As is "violation".

Anybody who does not want the prayer can decline it. As the woman in this case did.   And that should have been the end of it.

Mudcat is probably one of the few places it's even being discussed any more.

---

12 Mar 09 - 12:18 AM (#2586916)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Aggie Nostic

Ok.. lets just say for the sake of arguement.. [whoops !]

YOU are a qualified practising medical worker.
YOU are also a very devout Evangelical Christian.

So, just for fun, here's a quick test..

You suddenly find yourself alone with a non-believer
who has just suffered an extremely dramatic life threatening health problem.
Your professional diagnosis of this seriously ill persons condition
is that death is imminent;
barely minutes left before the patient will be lost forever.
There is however,
the remotest possibility you may be capable of reviving the patient and sustaining life
long enough for you to use your mobile to phone for an ambulance
and full emergency paramedic help.

What then will be your priority ?

To desparately attempt all within your professional training and knowledge
to prolong life for the next few minutes,
even if you consider your efforts may most likely be in vain.

Or, decide that as the patient is far too close to death anyway,
these vital minutes will be wasted on frantic attempts at resucitation
if it means you will risk failing to offer urgent prayer and eternal salvation.
So you decide to concentrate entirely on praying & trying to save the soul
of an individual who you believe will most benefit
from an eternity in Heaven than being damned to Hell???

So, the Ambulance eventually arrives to find you tending the deceased.

Now then, which would make you feel most guilty ?
Not having saved a life when there might have been a remote possibility
you could have succeded if you hadn't been praying so intently.

Or, failing to save a 'lost' soul from eternal Hell
because you wasted too much time on emergency medical procedures
when you should have instead been praying for the patients eternal salvation ?

What would a Professional Medical/Legal Inquiry Tribunal
make of this situation ?

Ok, 10 minutes to answer in no more than 250 words.
No talking, chewing gum, looking out the window, or copying
the person sat next to you ?
Starting now...

---

12 Mar 09 - 12:40 AM (#2586921)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie

"Come on...What motivates a person to do the work of caring for other people in their infirmities? Many ARE motivated by a Christian ethic. Others by a humanistic ethic. Still others by less obvious reasons but they are all doing what most here would term "A Good Work" No? Now Ebbie, do you really think that a heartless Nazi would be involved (voluntarily) in such a humane service?" Slag

That's a silly statement in my opinion, Slag. Within their ranks and belief system I'm sure that there were Nazis of both sexes who were not out there killing and demeaning their own kind. And so, yes. I believe there were Nazi nurses, child caregivers, doctors and surgeons, school teachers, and musicians.

---

12 Mar 09 - 03:02 AM (#2586940)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Barry Finn

Ron, a violation or an attack only if they did not take "no" for an answer

Barry

---

12 Mar 09 - 03:44 AM (#2586946)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Slag

OK Ebbie. I'll concede. You obviously know more about the inner workings of the Nazi mind than I do. Nazi nurses need not apply.

Aggie Nostique! That's easy. You save their physical life and that's all you do at the moment. The theological reasoning? Life or death is ultimately in the hands of the Creator and where there is life, there is hope. If the person is meant to live your efforts will succeed. If not, they won't. Any decision they have made for or against God or Whatever they esteem most highly is a done deal at the time of death. I would imagine that a Christian health worker would be constantly, silently praying all the while they worked to save that person. Ultimately the spiritual matters are between an individual and God.

It is always a personal decision between an individual and God. It is a true statement in the Christian faith that no can "save" you. They can only present you with God's Word. Salvation is solely the office and the prerogative of the Absolute Sovereign. Reference I Thessalonians 2:13. Hey if God's Word doesn't speak to your needs, there is nothing I can say or do that will go beyond anything that God has already done or said. Death just finalizes the deal. Hebrews 9:27. Just as there is physical triage there is also spiritual triage.

---

12 Mar 09 - 04:09 AM (#2586951)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe

What language is that?

---

12 Mar 09 - 05:32 AM (#2586982)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

Must be speaking in tongues.

---

12 Mar 09 - 05:44 AM (#2586992)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

Ron, a violation or an attack only if they did not take "no" for an answer

It is the very offer of prayer that is the violation for the reasons indicated earlier. It's a matter of being put in the embarrassing position of having to decline such bullshit in the first place. If I am infirm enough to merit a home visit by a nurse, how am I about to feel if said nurse then starts springing offers of prayer on me? It is as misplaced as it is perverse and runs contrary to all common decency; much as if said nurse was a stoner and having treated my requirements then asked if I minded if she skinned up, or, indeed, fancied a toke.

---

12 Mar 09 - 04:05 PM (#2587405)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P

Hmm, Barry Finn and Mrrzy have both posted stories about how put off -- no, pissed off -- they were by medical professionals offering religion. Slag, Keith, Ron, can you wrap your heads around the concept that there are situations where the offer of religion is inappropriate, and even harmful? The degree of the offer isn't really important. When a non-Christian or a non-religious person is confronted and surprised by an out-of-place offer of this nature during a time of great stress, it indicates a lack of quality patient care. You have said repeatedly that it wouldn't bother you. I accept that. Please try to look at the situation from a point of view other than your own.

One of the points I've made a couple of times now that none of you have bothered to (or been able to?) respond to is the experience that many non-Christians have had of being discriminated against for their lack of Christianity. Given how many "take no prisoners" Christians there are running around, how do we know if a total stranger is one of those or not? How do we know that a refusal of the offer of prayer isn't going to piss off a Christian who holds our lives in their hands?

Peace, I would have done the same in your situation. I suspect that most people would. I note that you didn't make the offer; you responded with comfort for a dying person. Out of curiosity, did your EMT training include any guidelines about offering unsolicited religion to patients, or do any organizations you've worked for have policies about it?

---

12 Mar 09 - 05:28 PM (#2587472)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz

Gegg Braden - The Science of Miracles(5/7)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-5pWbzmx2g&playnext_from=PL&feature=PlayList&p=AA86D8952BBEAD8E&index=4
Peace: I think that whenever one human being has kind intentions & respect for another human being, he sometimes suspends his personal belief, and aligns himself with a power that none of us will ever fully comprehend...You did good Bro...bob

---

12 Mar 09 - 05:55 PM (#2587498)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz

Make that Gregg...Here's Masaru Emoto, Author, "The Hidden Messages in Water..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4nK6W7FoFk&feature=related
BR

---

12 Mar 09 - 06:18 PM (#2587510)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie

"You obviously know more about the inner workings of the Nazi mind than I do" Slag

Oh? Does that qualify as an "unhealthy interest"?

---

12 Mar 09 - 06:49 PM (#2587546)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Neil D

Peace,
   Of course you did the right thing. Providing whatever comfort you can to someone who may be dying is always right and a belief system that would prevent that is wrong. Good on you.

---

12 Mar 09 - 07:06 PM (#2587570)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

The trick is, those that are motivated *to do good* by the so-called Christian ethic *would be so motivated if there were no Christianity*, since what they are are basically decent people.

In contrast, those motivated to do evil need an excuse, which religious texts, and prophets, offer in plenty. Were those texts non-existent and prophets found silly, the basically nasty would have to find another excuse.

It's the harm, people. It's the harm.

---

12 Mar 09 - 09:52 PM (#2587680)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

You're absolutely right, Barry, it's an attack only if they do not take no for an answer. Here the nurse did take no for an answer.

So it's not an attack--except for tender psyches like that of our beloved "free-thinker" Torquemada who has just told us--yet again-- that the very act of offering a prayer is an attack.   And if he is in the position of being an ailing Mudcatter, and offered a prayer, he can certainly snarl: "Take your superstition and shove it" or whatever similarly subtle sentiment he feels appropriate at the time.   Of course he will still be in terribly grave danger that she may pray for him secretly once she leaves him.   And I fervently hope that doesn't cause him more than a few years of lost sleep.

---

12 Mar 09 - 10:21 PM (#2587694)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

And "the harm" has been lopsidedly done by atheists---Hitler, Stalin, and Mao, to start with. As I noted earlier, probably one of the main reasons this is so is that with atheism, it's much easier to have a personality cult and a God-substitute--who by definition makes no mistakes. So it is impossible to rein in bad ideas of this God-substitute. Similar to the "good old days" of the divine right of kings.

It is also interesting that virtually all scientists and others who depend on empirical evidence have not been atheists. Agnostics, yes--and that is eminently sensible. But not atheists--including Darwin and Einstein, for instance.   It seems fairly evident that anybody who thinks clearly may well be an agnostic--but not likely an atheist.

---

13 Mar 09 - 12:39 AM (#2587750)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Slag

Ouch! OK Ebbie, you got me again! That wasn't really hyperbole that time, I edged over into sarcasm. Methinks you were being a bit obtuse??? No?? No harm intended. Will you forgive me?

My question for John P: So how are you supposed to know who is so sensitive about anything religious if you don't ask?? Hmm? You might try wearing a sign or a tattoo in your forehead that says "Don't talk to me about religion!" If you did that I would never bring up the subject to you. How do you know anything about somebody unless you broach the subject? Being thin skinned and intolerant is taking offense at the outset! I have to assume that is what you are then, thin skinned and intolerant? Is that right?

---

13 Mar 09 - 02:36 AM (#2587772)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie

Of course, Slag. Just don't let it happen again. :)

**************************8

I think we're making far more of this subject than called for.

A couple of thoughts:

If I truly am of the opinion that there is no 'other side' and there is no god, personal or not, but there are other people who are diametrically opposed to those ideas, surely I can just smile indulgenly to myself and reflect on the superstition that is still prevalent in our society? If, as I say, I am fully convinced they are wrong? Surely I needn't make a big deal of it?

On the other hand, if I believe there is a god, (personal or not) and that there definitely is an 'other side' but there are other people who are diametrically opposed to those notions, surely they are not harming me? Surely I needn't make a big deal of it?

So, if a person asks if they can say a prayer for me, if I am a believer I would welcme it. As a spiritual person I might welcome the 'good energy' emanating. As an agnostic or atheist, I think my proper role would be to let it go.

When a person has said to me: "I'll put in a good word for you to the man upstairs!" I always grin and say, "Couldn't hurt!"

On the other hand, when a person asks if I would like them to pray WITH me, I always beg off. I am not comfortable with it. It strikes me as invasive.

In my family when I was little we always had silent prayer but my grandfather read prayers from a prayer book. I always listened because I never understood how someone could put words in someone else's mouth.

---

13 Mar 09 - 06:12 AM (#2587847)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

except for tender psyches like that of our beloved "free-thinker" Torquemada who has just told us--yet again-- that the very act of offering a prayer is an attack.

The situation is simple enough. In any situation an offer of prayer is entirely anomalous to sensible human communication. If that communication is between a nurse and her patient it becomes an abuse of a trust relationship founded, essentially on the vulnerability of a human being and the duty of the nurse to do her job. The issue is that no-one, least of all a vulnerable patient, should ever have to put in the position of having to refuse such an offer in the first place. Hence, the offer is a violation both of trust and common decency.

---

13 Mar 09 - 12:11 PM (#2588069)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

I'm sorry, I'll say that again:

The situation is simple enough. In any situation an offer of prayer is entirely anomalous to sensible human communication. If that communication is between a nurse and her patient it becomes an abuse of a trusting relationship founded, essentially, on the vulnerability of a human being and the duty of the nurse, which is simply to do her job. The issue here is that no-one, least of all a vulnerable patient, should ever have to be put in the position of having to refuse such an offer in the first place. Hence, the offer is a violation both of trust and common decency.

It would be like the nurse offering the patient oral-sex. Of course, all she has do is to say no - so where's the problem?

---

13 Mar 09 - 12:43 PM (#2588092)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D

ummm... hospitals HAVE in-house chaplains the patient can ask for. I don't think they have comparable sex services. The metaphor is a bit thin.

---

13 Mar 09 - 01:17 PM (#2588116)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

The nurse was a home visitor, so that thickens it up a bit.

---

13 Mar 09 - 01:38 PM (#2588131)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P

Trying again, for those who don't know how to carry on a debate:

One of the points I've made a couple of times now that none of you have bothered to (or been able to?) respond to is the experience that many non-Christians have had of being discriminated against for their lack of Christianity. Given how many "take no prisoners" Christians there are running around, how do we know if a total stranger is one of those or not? How do we know that a refusal of the offer of prayer isn't going to piss off a Christian who holds our lives in their hands?

PLEASE stop talking about Hitler. That's a stupid line of conversation and a waste of everybody's time. And please stop making this into an atheist vs. Christian question. That's making it so broad that no real discussion is possible, and is assuming that anyone actually feels like there is some sort of war going on between the two groups.

It's about medical ethics and the appropriateness of conducting religious activities in any and all situations.

---

13 Mar 09 - 02:11 PM (#2588152)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Wesley S

"How do we know that a refusal of the offer of prayer isn't going to piss off a Christian who holds our lives in their hands?"

I think that IF I were an atheist and found myself in this situation that I would refuse as nicely as possible and then ask point blank if my refusal was going to make a difference in the quality of care I was about to receive. Put the offender on the spot. If I thought there was going to be a problem after that I would take it up with the proper authority/manager/superior.

But I might add that in my opinion a Christian that would change their quality of care based on either answer should not be considered any Christian at all. It's a complete reversal of the teachings that they profess to follow.

---

13 Mar 09 - 03:21 PM (#2588200)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

Thanks, John P.

---

13 Mar 09 - 05:04 PM (#2588298)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Slag

OK John P, in the interest of debate, you are guilty of attributing what may be true of the part to the whole, ie. That because some percentage do it, all do it. Does this sound familiar? It's the same argument racists use against blacks: "They're all no good! Look how many are in prison." That's one.

A second is an unsubstantiated assertion of facts not in evidence. To wit: "Given how many "take no prisoners" Christians there are running around, how do we know if a total stranger is one of those or not? How do we know that a refusal of the offer of prayer isn't going to piss off a Christian who holds our lives in their hands?" Says you?

As for Hitler, there I will have to agree with you. It is simply amazing how many times the spectre of Hitler is raised in these threads, which almost always (IMO) throws the discourse off. As with my hyperbole above, it is the extreme case in point, attempting to prove one's position.   Sometimes it IS appropriate to extend an illogical argument to its ultimate conclusion to demonstrate the fallacy, however, let's be a little more creative and try to leave Hitler out of the picture.

---

13 Mar 09 - 06:22 PM (#2588364)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

Yes, but it's hard to come up with atheist bad guys if you don't count Hitler... (not that I don't agree with you!)

---

13 Mar 09 - 11:02 PM (#2588512)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

So sorry if you don't like Hitler being brought up. He was in fact an atheist--which is the point at issue re: Hitler. And that only came up when a certain brilliant poster was trying to allege he was Christian.   Which was not true after about age 7.   Unless the poster perhaps thinks we should believe everything Hitler said in speeches. Rather than what he said in private--and especially, what he did.

And Hitler first came up when other posters were trying to make the absurd allegation that Christians and Christianity had been on balance negative for the world. Totally unproven. Whereas it is painfully obvious that atheism has been on balance very negative for the world. As I have explained, giving examples and reasons.   Yet again, Hitler, Stalin and Mao were all atheists--and responsible for more deaths than anybody else in history.

And current prominent atheists--like the current ruler of North Korea--do not help the cause.

But I can certainly understand why "free-thinkers" would rather not grapple with this.



Now back to the nurse.

One poster is concerned that if he were to reject a prayer, the care a Christian nurse would give him would be lower quality than if he were to accept the prayer. Perhaps he's projecting his own attitude if he were to be caregiver to a fundamentalist Christian.   If he would behave this way as caregiver, that's despicable conduct and he should resign his position forthwith.

If he suspects a Christian nurse would be likely to behave this way, he is doing nothing but showing , yet again, his own amply obvious paranoia--unsurprisingly.

---

14 Mar 09 - 12:12 AM (#2588524)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Slag

Right your are in your confrontation of the bogus "Hitler" argument. No one who truly believes in the Christian God would do such a thing or even conceive of it. My criticism was not aimed at you. I think it was Sinister who brought it up. Absolutely absurd.

If you are to send your undercooked steak back to the chef would you rather the chef be someone who's morals and ethics answer only to himself or to one who subscribes to a higher power which is based on returning kindness for evil and loving their neighbor as their self? I think that would be somewhat analogous to the paranoia about having a nurse's offer of pray rejected by a "pissed off" patient. Good points Ron.

---

14 Mar 09 - 06:08 AM (#2588598)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe

I don't understand, Ron. Are you saying that because Hitler, Mao and Stalin were allegedly atheists, somehow atheism is evil? Are you saying they perpetuated their crimes in the name of atheism? Are you saying that all atheists are in some way culpable for their crimes? And capable of repeating them or wishing to do so? Personally I prefer to describe myself as a humanist rather than an atheist, emphasising a positive rather than a negative.

And what does any of this have to do with the (formerly) suspended nurse? To me, your arguments are all about putting up smokescreens, and I suspect are based on the premise that Christians should be exempt from normal rules of conduct. This is not an atheist vs religionist debate. Plenty of religionists (including people working as hospital chaplains) disagreed with her actions.

---

14 Mar 09 - 06:51 AM (#2588610)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

Right your are in your confrontation of the bogus "Hitler" argument. No one who truly believes in the Christian God would do such a thing or even conceive of it. My criticism was not aimed at you. I think it was Sinister who brought it up. Absolutely absurd.

My only mention of Hitler was to express concern over Ron's specialist knowledge of same. Otherwise, Hitler has fuck all to do with it - a smokescreen, as Spleen rightly points out, thrown up by those wishing to obfuscate the original point by resorting to a quantitative moral showdown between Christianity & Atheism. There is, after all, only one type of human in the world - and one doubts that any sort of analysis or dissection would reveal otherwise.

This thread is not about bashing Evangelical Christians (however satisfying that might ultimately be) rather about people doing what they're meant to be doing professionally without exploiting the situation for their personal ends, whatever those ends might be.

---

14 Mar 09 - 09:10 AM (#2588680)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

"somehow atheism is evil".   Nice try. No, atheism is stupid.   Some atheists--not all-- have been evil. Hope you can understand the difference.

Agnosticism makes sense for anybody who insists on empirical evidence. Atheism makes no sense.

And for anybody who complains about Hitler being pulled into this, you may direct your whining to the person who claimed that Hitler was a Christian and to the others who claimed that Christianity had been on balance bad for the world. Atheism has been far worse for the world, as I've explained more than once--and why.

---

14 Mar 09 - 09:17 AM (#2588683)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe

Ron - I still don't understand. seems like your more into point scoring than discussion.

---

14 Mar 09 - 09:20 AM (#2588684)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

The nurse has been supported by legal argument (see Richard), by the Trust, and by public opinion. It seems to be only a few amazingly obstinate Mudcat posters who criticize her in the least. And no reasonable argument has been put forward as to how she did anything wrong.    Absurdly specious whining about "diversity", "dignity" and "violation"--supported by nothing except the paranoia of a few posters, and that seems to be about it.

Now how long will certain posters insist on beating this poor dead animal, mouldering in the ground for weeks now?

---

14 Mar 09 - 09:21 AM (#2588685)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

"point scoring"? No, just waiting for a logical argument.   Seems like it will be a long time yet.

---

14 Mar 09 - 10:07 AM (#2588712)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

? Atheism is stupid? Um, what?

---

14 Mar 09 - 10:19 AM (#2588715)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

Yes, atheism is supported by no logic whatsoever. In contrast to agnosticism.

---

14 Mar 09 - 10:36 AM (#2588719)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

Sorry, but if you have less than a 0.000000000000(...)0001 level of doubt, it is not illogical to round it to 0. Nor is it stupid. People take .05 as enough, usually, to reject the null hypothesis. If you want it in statistical terms, that is.

In English, you can have so little doubt that it's more sensible, more logical, more intelligent, to say you have none, than to cling to that scintilla and insist it means whatever you doubt must still be possible.

---

14 Mar 09 - 12:39 PM (#2588795)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D

" less than a 0.000000000000(...)0001 level of doubt,..."

That sorta describes me.... but I, logically I think, must continue to NOT round it to 0. So, does that make me stupid to both of you? *grin*

If I had all the lost trillions from Wall Street, I would bet it that nothing happens after death, but theoretically, I 'could' lose. Mostly, I don't like to label myself AS atheist because I then get lumped in with various rabid anti-Christians who roundly condemn almost everything churches do. That is not how I feel, so when asked, I merely call myself a "skeptic", which has less opprobrium attached to it...and refers to other things than religion.
What is going on is mincing of words. You are, Ron, making way too much of your point. Insisting that "atheism is stupid" just because they hate all the zeros and go ahead & round down ignores all the thought that led them there. (well, most of them). This attitude colors your entire focus on what the nurse should or should not do ..and what we, in discussing the nurse, should or should not agree with. The decisions about the nurse need to be pragmatic. Should she be fired or not? Will she follow the 'rules' from now on?

And Mrrzy, you fall into Ron's semantic trap by insisting THAT your atheism is reasonable...even though it is just a label. Even IF you round to zero, you 'might' be wrong.

The answer to the whole can of worms is that the hospital should make clear the rules (hopefully that spiritual guidance should be available at the request of the patient, and that the nurse should stick to nursing unless the patient directly asks.)

---

14 Mar 09 - 01:21 PM (#2588825)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

Sure, and there could be a flying spaghetti monster too. It's just more reasonable to say that there isn't one, given how small the likelihood is. I don't think it's stupid to keep your options open, given that you have the same level of doubt as an atheist might have. Nor do I think it's stupid just to go with the overwhelming evidence, as I do.
But if your really, really, doubt, why still call yourself agnostic? Is it the label of atheist you don't like? I'm trying to get the hoodoo off the term, myself, by using it to describe people like myself who see no earthly reason to believe in the supernatural.

---

14 Mar 09 - 01:55 PM (#2588840)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe

Personally, I think it's important for people who are pretty much convinced there isn't a god to use the term atheist to describe themselves, if nothing else to reclaim the term from people like Ron who would presume we are all rabid anti-Christians and from those few who are rabid anti-Christians. I also think it is quite possible to criticise some of the actions and beliefs of the various Christian organisations from a Christian, agnostic or atheist perspective. Doing so doesn't make you rabidly anti-Christian, but just means you are exercising your critical faculties. I do wonder if Ron is railing against imaginary adversaries rather than any of the people here. I'm sure I'm one of his 'rabid anti-Christians', but I've just spent the afternoon with a good friend who is a practising Catholic. We agree to differ on the existence of a god, but otherwise have far more in common than we have things that divide us...

And whilst I may not have a god, the religious impulse and its history is a constant source of fascination... though the last thing I read on it was a history of modern pagan witchcraft!

---

14 Mar 09 - 02:01 PM (#2588844)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

Well put, Spleen Cringe. And what a name!

---

14 Mar 09 - 02:08 PM (#2588848)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Greg F.

atheism is supported by no logic whatsoever

Kinda like religion.....

---

14 Mar 09 - 02:14 PM (#2588853)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe

Thanks Mrzzy. I like your name too. Kind of has a pleasantly "outer space" ring to it... mine's just an anagram of my real name.

---

14 Mar 09 - 02:40 PM (#2588866)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz

Nursing...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nursing

Hi Kids: What I'm about to get into here, well, you can file this under, "The Strange"...

For people like Mrzzy and Bill D the world is a 'different" place than for The Pope, Buddhist Monks, Hindus, Muslims, etc. For them, God is superstition or non-existent. Bill says there's nothing after death, and you know what? That is absolutely RIGHT. But, here's where it gets strange; that reality applies to Bill alone. For him, there WILL be nothing after death...WHY?

Because whatever put us here allows each individual to create his/her reality. We live in a Quantum Field. This is what connects us all. Stephen Hawking calls it "The Mind of God". It responds to Faith/Belief, atheist/agnostic. And GIVES you what YOU alone think. So for Mrzzy & Bill D, no God. No problem. Ancestors of Apes, and now you're taking the Tram in Picadilly, or the Subway to wherever...And posting on Mudcat...

For others, there's Religion, or not. Maybe you just think something out there had to put all of this together. But I think all that we can do in this situation is to allow different points of view their freedom to exist...

My ladyfriend works in the Hospital System and sees death all the time. part of "the job" you know. But she notices a difference in people at the point of death. Some pass away and they do so peacefully, and she describes it as "beautiful". The family mourns and are upset, of course. That's to be expected.
But others pass away in anger, hatred and fear, not so beautiful...

Was the nurse wrong? Well, she was being a nurse at the highest level to MY mind. If the patient didn't want it...well, leave them alone...

I encourage all to suspend their beliefs, and offer, let's say, "kind thoughts" to others...

Peace...bob

And remember, as some Genius somewhere once said, "THIMK!"... :>)

---

14 Mar 09 - 02:55 PM (#2588870)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D

"But if your really, really, doubt, why still call yourself agnostic? Is it the label of atheist you don't like?"

I DON'T generally call myself agnostic...as I said, I prefer 'skeptic'. It denotes **doubt** while technically leaving open possibilities.

And yes...as I said... I don't like what the label of 'atheist' usually brings on. It's a loaded term, and I can have better debates/discussions with some people if I don't have "unrelenting unbeliever" stapled to my forehead. Am I just using language to nitpick, myself? Maybe...but it keeps ME a honest as I can be, and keeps the 'game' going as I try to make 'doubting' more popular and 'believing' less popular.

   In every 'cause', there are those who take an extreme, in-your-face, 'point' position, taking on the opposition with battle armor on and lances lowered. They get the attention...and take much of the heat. Then it is easier for reasonable little me to soothe things and be a voice of reason & understanding.....




ooops.....forget I said all that *grin*.... I shouldn't give away my strategy openly. We 'skeptics' need our disguises.

---

14 Mar 09 - 03:09 PM (#2588878)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: cobra

Dear STAB "Keith A",

You said:-

"I can't think of any examples, although religion is often wrongly used to label different ethnic groups in ethnic conflicts, e.g. N Ireland, Yugoslavia."

Now, I may be missing something but can you please explain the "different ethnic groups" involved in "ethnic conflicts e.g. N Ireland...."

Yours Aye, speaking as a non-STAB,

Cobra

---

14 Mar 09 - 03:25 PM (#2588883)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D

"Bill says there's nothing after death, and you know what? That is absolutely RIGHT. But, here's where it gets strange; that reality applies to Bill alone."


awww....Bob... You wouldn't be trying to scare me, would you?

The thing is, we don't get to test it. We can make a bet, but if I ...and Mrrzy... are right, we can never collect, or even say smug things. If YOU are right, you get to at least smile as we get on the DOWN elevator.

I'm sorry, Bob....but simply stating that 'reality' is what you make it doesn't change a thing. This is a **belief**, and there are good reasons why we USE the term 'belief'. It is fine if you WISH to 'believe' X or Y, but nothing about absolute reality changes because you do.

The philosopher Blaise Pascal asserted years ago that it was at least more 'prudent' to believe in God, because you 'won' more if you were right, and you lost a LOT if you were wrong...and that at least, believing was safer because if there WAS no God, it didn't cost and you led a good life.
   Sadly, left out many of the possibilities. He just didn't take it to its conclusion.

So it is with theories of 'reality'. We can imagine all sorts of things, but just stating that "
"... whatever put us here allows each individual to create his/her reality. already **ASSUMES** that 'something put us here'.
   This is a logical fallacy You can't prove a point by assuming the truth of your premises ahead of time. You 'may' be correct, but not for that reason.

Ah, well.... all *I* can do is explain why I am a skeptic. And to return to the poor, misunderstood nurse...why she was 'assuming' that it is never inappropriate to 'offer' spiritual help. The very offer 'assumes' that there are spiritual forces to be offered. IF the patient has such beliefs, asks the nurse if she (the nurse) does, and they wish to share those beliefs in prayer, fine. Even NON-believers may provide comfort, much as Peace 'prayed' with the accident victim.

---

14 Mar 09 - 04:39 PM (#2588909)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz

Bill D: You know I love you...No, not like that! But seriously, using logic to test the validity of God can never work. You don't test God, God tests YOU... "And what if your instruments are incapable of testing the subject?" If alien life forms exist, what if they are of such a nature that they cannot be seen by our science?

I have spent most of my like studying the power of the mind. I know that at one point in your life you will encounter a situation where all your logic & knowledge just will not apply. They will be useless.

That point may come in a hospital when your Doctor tells you, "Bill, there's nothing we can do..." When that time comes I wonder if your arguments will still continue? For at that time, you will be arguing with yourself...I think, after some consideration, you might cry out, "Help me! But then, WHO would you be talking to?

Maybe then, a Nurse will come to you to make you comfortable, even just a little bit. And she might get quiet, bow her head, and say a prayer for you. A simple thought sent into the universe for your wellbeing. It will be interesting to see your reaction at that time.

Perhaps then you might realize that we are Spirit, in human form...

Wishing you Peace & Blessings, and a long life...bob

---

14 Mar 09 - 04:55 PM (#2588918)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: bfdk

"Now how long will certain posters insist on beating this poor dead animal, mouldering in the ground for weeks now?"

Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

---

14 Mar 09 - 05:26 PM (#2588939)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bill D

"You don't test God, God tests YOU..."

Why Bob....you may be right. He sent guys like you to tease me... *big grin*

"But seriously, using logic to test the validity of God can never work. "

But also seriously: I am not trying to "test the validity of God"... I am using my logic to explain why supposed proofs OF God are lacking....and often circular. I am making NO claims about the ultimate nature of reality and creation: others are. I am merely nodding and saying that I am not convinced.

   "I think, after some consideration, you might cry out, "Help me!"

No, Bob...I have long passed the point where I even worry about it. I try to lead a good life....I don't cheat, beat my wife or run red lights. IF there is a judgment day, I will have to just shrug and say to the 'judge':
"If you wanted everyone to totally accept the 'rules' and spirituality, you could have made it all MUCH clearer, as I am told you have the power. You made us weak & fallible, and able to doubt, and allowed hundreds of versions of The Truth to propagate, and I was unable to resolve the contradictions. So, do as you will...I don't think I'd want to live in a Heaven run that way."

I also wish YOU well and a happy, long life, Bob. You are obviously a thoughtful, caring person. We can occupy the same earthly reality on reasonably friendly terms ☺ ....and the afterlife? We shall see...or maybe there's nothing TO see.

   There's SO much to learn about what we CAN see & test and measure and be awed at.... I have no longer a need to speculate about various metaphysical possibilities.

---

14 Mar 09 - 06:01 PM (#2588962)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

You who mocked the beliefs of Christians-"imaginary friend", "fantasy inferno", etc. don't seem to really like it when the shoe is on the other foot--when your own beliefs are called stupid. (I leave Bill D and Amos out of this--they did not ridicule Christians.)

Maybe next time you''ll think before your oh-so-clever denigration of another's faith. That would be progress.

And as I've said before, I'm not religious in the least. Just sticking up for minorities--and around here, that seems to include Christians.

---

14 Mar 09 - 06:24 PM (#2588974)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Spleen Cringe

With all due respect, Ron, you make a hell of a lot of presumptions.

---

14 Mar 09 - 07:59 PM (#2589001)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

You who mocked the beliefs of Christians-"imaginary friend", "fantasy inferno", etc. don't seem to really like it when the shoe is on the other foot--when your own beliefs are called stupid.

All you've done so far, Ron is to contradict yourself, create false oppositions, lick arses & throw insults around in the mistaken belief your approach is somehow logical. So please, take some time out to attempt some genuine logic and tell us exactly why you think it's acceptable that a vulnerable person should be put in the stressful and embarrassing position of having to refuse an offer of supernatural mumbo-jumbo from a respected authority figure.

---

14 Mar 09 - 08:29 PM (#2589011)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: cobra

Themmuns are responsible. Always have been, always will be. Ussuns on the other hand..... you will never meet nicer people.

---

14 Mar 09 - 08:29 PM (#2589012)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Slag

Bob Ryszkiewicz, you make a good application of Schrodinger's Cat! It is both alive and dead.

I have made the point that any "proof" of God is doomed to fail; The God of Biblical fame, that is. It is PURELY a faith proposition. Mrrzy's odds are a little off too. Mathematically or in the realm of probability the odds are a flat zero, that's 0.0, of proving the existence of God. All knowledge of the Biblical God comes by way of revelation. So say the scriptures.

Conversely, in the realm of the dimensional universe, all is cause and effect: until you get to the macro, beyond our observable boundaries or into the quantum realm where you have, say, matter/energy existing in two or more places at the same time, multi dimensions and an incomplete menagerie of theoretical thingies. We attempt to reach beyond our senses with mathematics which tend to serve us well in the observable universe. Can't say that they serve us well in the theoretical universe.

If only all you can see is all you believe then atheism DOES make sense. Apollo 8 astronaut recited Genesis 1:1 from inter-lunar space. A Russian cosmonaut declared that he had ventured into "heaven" and could see no god. Both were right. It just depends on your point of view.

Back to earth now.   A nurse or any other person who subscribes to a system which extols the virtues of benefiting mankind and doing good with a selfless interest is a good thing and what ever motivates them to do such deserves honor and not contempt and sneering. No one can force you to believe what you don't want to believe so have a little charity and good will in your heart and be thankful for whatever motivates the good deed doer.

---

14 Mar 09 - 10:09 PM (#2589040)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz

Rumor has it that CNN, Al Jazeera, and Jon Stewart are all vieing(veeing, vooing?) for that once in a lifetime interview with God. God's agent, naturally, is holding out for "suitable" compensation...Given the magnitude and "Historical" significance of the event. And a meeting place amenable to both parties is being discussed as we speak....Film at 11...

The betting line in Vegas has Stewart in the lead at 5 to 4. CNN is ready to pump cash to sweeten the deal, while Al Jazeera has some Religious issues...

Our spys tell us that Stewart's first ever question to the Almighty might be along the lines of
"Proof" that He exists. God's reply? "What about the Hookers Jon?"... "And for crying out loud, I'm sitting right in front of you, like you were looking in the mirror!" "Smell the coffee, you big schpokora!"




("Schpokora" - translation...Heaven's greatest insult to humans, akin to throwing your shoe at a President on Earth...)


p.s. When some hack asked God what he thought about the "Nurse Suspension for Praying" thing on earth. God refused to comment...

BR/CANADA, eh...

---

15 Mar 09 - 01:25 AM (#2589107)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker

thinking about it..


..s'pose it coulda been a whole lot worse..




what is the nurse had been an exteme obsessive evangelical "Star Wars" fanatic.. !!!!!???

---

15 Mar 09 - 06:47 AM (#2589191)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

what is the nurse had been an exteme obsessive evangelical "Star Wars" fanatic.. !!!!!???

I hear in America of people going to their work dressed up as Klingons and taking out law-suits on anyone who opposes their right to do this. Earlier on I said there is only one type of human being in the world - by which I meant, of course, the human individual, however so culturally defined we might be in that individuality. Some of these individuals will hate the music of (say) Bob Dylan (such as myself, I actually find it painful to listen to, though I delight in his Theme Time Radio Hour), others will love it with a devoted passion (yeah, even with the wannabe obsession that seems to have been a determining factor in the creation of the folk scene). I believe Dylan himself was once Saved, thus inspiring, no doubt, further cries of Judas from the audience he had helped to enlighten over the previous decade or so, who now found themselves adrift from their cultural moorings. I believe Bob didn't remain saved very long, just a passing phase, during which time I dare say he was still the same person even if had adopted a creed which seems determined to condemn non-believers to the exquisite sufferings of the old fantasy inferno and using that as an excuse to try and save the rest of us. Fact is, he changed his mind. One day he might change it back. One day he might even become a Klingon. It matters not, just as long as he accepts that what's true for himself is not necessarily true for the rest of us, and any assumption to the contrary is a violation of our right to the diversity which I'd say is one of the few fundamental truths I can think of.

There survives in Cheshire the last remaining farm dedicated to the breeding of Concertina Weasels, a sub-species of Mustela nivalis selectively bread for their strong yet supple pelts which are used in the construction of superior concertina bellows. If you want to know if your concertina is made from weasel leather, you must look inside, where, on the very finest models, the fur is still on. Generally it's only the English Concertina that used weasel leather, though a number of quality Anglos use it too. It doesn't come cheap, but as one concertina maker pointed out to me, it is as much about preserving the ancient family tradition of weasel farming as it is about the quality of the musical instrument. Sadly, whilst passing that way last week, I noticed a camp of animal rights protesters on the wayside by the farm entrance, and on the local news that night it was reported that the farm had been broken into and much of the breeding stock let loose into the wild. I'm sure there is perfect punchline to this, but I'm blowed if I can think of one.

---

15 Mar 09 - 06:56 AM (#2589196)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker

gotcha punchline for ya..

i genuinely wanna be in a middle aged cultural confrontalionalist situasionist punk folk band called

"Weasle Leather"

---

15 Mar 09 - 06:59 AM (#2589198)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,punbkfolkrocker

f@ck.. i just wanna bang some loud chords out in a band
called "Weasel Leather" !!!!!!!!!!!

---

15 Mar 09 - 08:09 AM (#2589240)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

How is atheism stupid? Let me count the ways.

Well, obviously, everybody comes at this from his or her own perspective. Mine is in large part American and political.

To put it mildly, I did not enjoy the 8 years under Bush.   The 2004 election was very close. It appears clear one of the main factors was how the fundamentalist Right turned out for Bush. It's also clear that stupidity among militant atheists, still amply on view on Mudcat, played a large role. Senseless, in fact counterproductive, crusades like trying to remove "In God We Trust" from coins, take "under God" from the Pledge, and remove 10 Commandments plaques from courthouses (among other ideas) gave the "Religious Right" an amazing amount of red meat to push their congregations to vote for Bush. The pathetic numbers and utter lack of organization of atheists assured that the only outcome of their campaigns would be negative for them, and their whining did not help Kerry in the least. Atheists' interference in politics in the US is indeed the height of stupidity, since the other side is so much more powerful. And since atheists can hardly agree on anything, they will never be organized in the US.

As I've noted, atheism is also the stupidest form of belief since it makes a God-substitute--and a personality cult--so easy. We've seen the results in the regimes of Hitler, Stalin and Mao. Militant atheism does try to supplant other forms of religion.

Warning: Hitler reference:   anybody who does not like it is invited to go play in another sandbox.

At Nuremberg rallies one of the songs the Hitlerjugend sang included:

No evil priest can prevent us from feeling that we are the children of Hitler.
We follow not Christ but Horst Wessel
Away with incense and holy water
The Church can hang for all we care
The Swastika brings salvation on earth




It seems on Mudcat we have an amazing wealth of evidence that militant atheism, which several posters display, is stupid. We have the brilliant poster who seems rather strongly to believe that Hitler had no choice but to be a mass murderer--after all he started out as a Catholic. And there's the poster, truly in the stupid anti-intellectual tradition of aggressive yahoos worldwide, who warns us against "unhealthy knowledge".

Then, speaking to the topic of the thread, we have the posters who seem to be governed by stupid paranoia, seeing in the nurse's offer of prayer a "violation" and denial of diversity, and insisting that she should be prevented from offering a prayer. That is, in the grand tradition of stupid fundamentalism, they seek to impose their will on the the rest of the world. Yet they do not recognize themselves as the classic bigots they are.

I hope I'm not being too subtle here.

A lot more can be said, but, in contrast to some posters, I don't have unlimited time to waste.

---

15 Mar 09 - 08:16 AM (#2589246)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

You got it, pfr! So what hippy CDs were you listening to last night? I started with Kevin Ayer's Shooting at the Moon and ended up with The Fall's Live at the Witch Trails which I still reckon is their finest album. For anyone doubting this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IOfQO9z-7g

Someone's always on my tracks
In a dark room you see more than you think
I'm out of my place, got to get back
I sweated a lot, you could feel the violence

I've got shears pointed straight at my chest
And time moves slow when you count it
I'm better than them, and I think I'm the best
But I'll appear at midnight when the films close

Cause I'm in a trance
and I sweat
I don't want to dance
I want to go home.

I couldn't live in those peephole places
They might get to know my actions
I'd run away from toilets and faeces
I'd run away to a non-date on the street

Cause I'm in a trance
and I sweat
I don't want to dance
I want to go home.

I feel trapped by mutual affection
And I don't know how to use freedom
I spend hours looking sideways
to the time when I was sixteen

Cause I'm in a trance.

I'm frightened.
Amphetamine frightened

I go to the top of the street
I go to the bottom of the street
I look to the sky, my lips are dry....

Which reminds me, more Jim Eldon on YouTube too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H-td43zcQg

And here's Mark E. Smith at his most Jim-like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCFWuHNYflo

A hall full of cards left unfilled
Ended his life on wine and pills,
A sign in a graveyard on a hill reads...
Bingo Master's Beakout!

---

15 Mar 09 - 11:08 AM (#2589330)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie

"No evil priest can prevent us from feeling that we are the children of Hitler.
We follow not Christ but Horst Wessel
Away with incense and holy water
The Church can hang for all we care
The Swastika brings salvation on earth"

Ron, I know you know the German language- would you please post these lyrics in German? I want to read it in the original. Thanks.

---

15 Mar 09 - 11:44 AM (#2589359)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

Unfortunately, Ron, there is a difference between being called stupid and being demonstrated to be illogical.

---

15 Mar 09 - 04:44 PM (#2589565)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

How typical is Deborah, 13 - Servant of God of modern day evangelical Christians? How do Christians feel watching this? Or is this the ideal upper middle-class Utopia we all should be aspiring to - or else sympathetic of?

For me, it's like watching a broadcast from Zeta Reticuli.

---

15 Mar 09 - 06:06 PM (#2589622)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Sleepy Rosie

Isn't the fact that 'a percentage' of people, be they five percent, or ten percent, be they atheist, or of alternative faith, or whatever, against the notion of Christian propositioning in formal care giver guise, be enough to delimit that care giver to her proscribed role?

If I have a house cleaner, do I want her selling me kosha meat? Or the windowcleaner, offering me Anne Summers catalogues?

A human service or contract, should not stretch beyond it's agreed and mutually understood limits.

---

15 Mar 09 - 06:07 PM (#2589625)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie

To me it's a bit of a trip down memory lane. I am very familiar with that mindset and with its strivings and exhortations. I feel tremendous sympathy for the girl and empathy with her family. The family itself appears to be a loving one and the kids seem in full understanding of what the parents are trying to accomplish.

That said, I hope that as the girl gets a bit older she will mellow into a woman with terrific people skills, with compassion ad acceptance. On the other hand, it is possible the she will remain a judgmental person and become a bitter, strident woman.

What does truly concern me is the inevitable child in the family of 11 children who finds her or himself unable to accept the beliefs they are being brought up to obey unquestioningly.

There are few things worse than being a child severely out of sync; it can take years to understand and to forgive.

---

15 Mar 09 - 07:13 PM (#2589667)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Slag

There was a large family that began attending a church I once attended. The women folk wore homespun and gingham head scarfs as a uniform. The men dressed in simple black. They became a major source of division in that church and sad to say, the leadership saw NOTHING. It turned out they were followers of quasi-Christian cult. The children were all home schooled to keep the taint of the world away and their ignorance was as appalling as was their dedication to the principals of their true leader. Brrrrrr!

I have no doubt that were a Hitler-like charismatic leader to come on the scene, little groups like this one would fall into step (goose?) immediately. When lack of success called them to richer fields they left taking a couple of families with them. Many more left because of the leaderships receptiveness to the invasion.

By nature, evil hides itself, its motives, from its intended victims and keeps itself hidden until a fortuitous time. Once its mission is completed, it goes back into hiding. Now you might be tempted to liken this nurse's action to the same but it is not. Christianity and churches have a local and national presence in this nation, England and many other western countries and beyond. They are open organizations and are upfront about their evangelistic efforts and other endeavors. It is not unlikely that one will meet Christians in their day-to-day life. And it is not out of the realm of possibility that the topic of their religious affiliations or other aspects of their beliefs will come up in the course of their daily lives. People tend to talk about what is closest to their hearts. Isn't that a reasonable picture? If you don't want to hear about some one's motorcycle, grandchildren, waffle recipes, philosophy of life OR religion you simply beg off. Change the subject. Walk away.

RD makes a valid point that some atheists actions have proven to be stupid. Stupid because they may have helped accomplish the very thing they were against. That's stupid and as Forest Gump's Momma always said "Stupid is as stupid does."

---

15 Mar 09 - 07:20 PM (#2589670)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

Nicely put: It is not unlikely that one will meet Christians in their day-to-day life. And it is not out of the realm of possibility that the topic of their religious affiliations or other aspects of their beliefs will come up in the course of their daily lives. People tend to talk about what is closest to their hearts. Isn't that a reasonable picture? If you don't want to hear about some one's motorcycle, grandchildren, waffle recipes, philosophy of life OR religion you simply beg off. Change the subject. Walk away.

Or, in my case, you mention your atheism and then change the subject. I don't usually bring it up first... but as an aside, an unimportant facet, and then try to go on with the conversation. Amazing how hard that is sometimes! But it's worth it to bring atheism out of the closet and into the realm of the normal. Which it isn't in the Southern US, although it is frequently elsewhere...

---

15 Mar 09 - 07:26 PM (#2589672)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Musket

In the meantime, the nurse in question has probably retired now....

Wow, this thread is still going?

It appears to have become a "is there a God" thread. so...

Here in The UK, a group of people fed up with religion being rammed down their throats paid for a set of posters on buses saying "There probably is no God, so just get on with enjoying your life" or something like that.

A bunch of "Christians" complained to the Advertising Standards Agency. The non believers pointed out all the posters saying there is a God.

So... it appears The Advertising Standards Agency can only close the book on the complaint by adjudicating on whether God exists or not.

I heard a contributor to a BBC Radio 4 programme say this the other day;

Religion is like a huge fierce looking dog. When it is your dog, it is cuddly, friendly and faithful. To other people, it is nasty looking, dangerous and liable to hurt you.

Oh, and don't let it near the children....

By the way, everything I have read on this thread since last posting on it (seems centuries ago) has done nothing to alter my view, (that her actions were gross professional misconduct) and the more I read, the sadder I get about some of my fellow human beings.

---

15 Mar 09 - 07:37 PM (#2589681)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie

Slag, I hope you're not intimating that the family in that video is evil. In my opinion the parents - and therefore the children - are seriously misguided but love, as manifested, cannot be evil. Mistaken, yes.

I also don't understand your story: "The women folk wore homespun and gingham head scarfs as a uniform. The men dressed in simple black. They became a major source of division in that church and sad to say, the leadership saw NOTHING. It turned out they were followers of quasi-Christian cult. The children were all home schooled to keep the taint of the world away and their ignorance was as appalling as was their dedication to the principals of their true leader. Brrrrrr!"

What "quasi-Christian cult" did they espouse? Who was their "true leader"? What were the "principals" (sic) of that leader?

In Oregon there is a community of 'Old Believers", a Russian group that years ago broke away from the Orthodox church. They too wear gingham scarves and plain (NOT homespun) dresses. So far as I know, no one has ever considered them threatening.

---

15 Mar 09 - 07:55 PM (#2589690)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

Just because you do an evil thing out of love doesn't make your love evil, is that what you're saying? I agree, but it's a fine line!

---

15 Mar 09 - 08:00 PM (#2589695)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie

Agreed, Mrrzzy. However, I suspect that when love does evil things, there is other facets at work. Control and manipulation and grandiosity and fear may all be presented under the umbrella of love but I think we'd agree that it ain't love.

---

15 Mar 09 - 08:08 PM (#2589703)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Slag

Damn that spell check!

Mrrzy, a meeting of the minds! Thank you for your reasonableness.. it's nice to be able to disagree without being disagreeable.

Ebbie! There you go again! I have been sitting here racking my last little grey cell ( I have a few left you know) and can't come up with the guy's name. At one time his group was called something like "Youth in Conflict" or "Youth in crisis". I Googled both and couldn't come up with it. Got it: Gothard! I think it is Bill Gotherd. Wait...Yes that is it. They were followers of Gothard. There is a lot of pros and cons on him but I certainly do NOT subscribe to his spin on things.

Key word in there was "uniform". That is what I began to see it as. They would do things like get up in unison and walk out of the church building if papa didn't like the particular hymn that was being sung. Whisper campaigns were started against anyone who didn't conform to their view of how things should be. The first target was the intelligensia ( such as it was). They would turn and stare continuously at someone they disapproved of. Really weird stuff. I found out that they had been run out of the last church they attended. Using Gothard's name, you can find out their priciples yourself, if you're interested, however be aware that their public preachment is not "upfront" or straight forward. Read some of the con too.

---

15 Mar 09 - 09:22 PM (#2589748)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ebbie

Shall do, Slag. Thanks.

---

16 Mar 09 - 09:07 AM (#2589986)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: freda underhill

calling Bill D stupid? now that's stupid.

---

16 Mar 09 - 09:47 AM (#2590016)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jack Blandiver

OR religion you simply beg off. Change the subject. Walk away.

Difficult to beg off, change the subject, or walk away when it's an elderly person, housebound, infirm, being administered to by a fit young healthy nurse in her own home.

---

16 Mar 09 - 08:40 PM (#2590624)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Ron Davies

To boil this down to the essentials (obviously the nurse topic is long since beaten into the ground), let's go to the dictionary. Atheism: " disbelief in the existence of deity;" "doctrine there is no deity."

And what is this disbelief based on? Specious abuse of mathematics to play games with probability doesn't cut it, sorry. It's based on....uh...uh...the belief itself. And nothing else. Since there is no conclusive proof or even solid evidence. Yes there is no proof there is a God. Great straw man, congratulations. But there is no proof there is not. Since obviously there can be no proof on a proposition which is by definition unknowable. As anybody who depends on empirical evidence realizes. Why do you suppose there are so few atheist scientists?   In contrast to agnostic scientists. Because they realize it's an open question.

So the doctrine there is no deity is based on belief....i.e. faith.

Atheists have faith there is no God. Just as Christians (and Jews and Moslems) have faith that there is.

But there is a slight difference. Christians and other believers say directly their belief is based on faith. Atheists don't admit this about their belief.

So, it seems, atheism and atheists, in addition to their other charms (especially on Mudcat)-- e.g. ignorance of history, refusal to do research before sounding off, etc.-- are in addition, intellectually dishonest.

---

16 Mar 09 - 09:58 PM (#2590650)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Greg F.

Horsepucky, Ron.

---

16 Mar 09 - 11:00 PM (#2590681)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Slag

And so it goes...I guess this shall be my last post, my last look at this thread as it takes so long to download with dial-up. Ron said it. The nurse issue has been hashed over enough, the arguments are repeating and the comment from Greg F sums up the level of intellect of some who believe they are great debaters. A simple course in the fundamentals of logic would serve you well Greg F.

---

17 Mar 09 - 09:48 AM (#2590965)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Gervase

What a load of twaddle.
Faith is not a matter of reason; it can defy reason. So to try to use reason or logic to 'prove' a matter of faith is absurd.
My own view is, let the religious believe in what they will, provided they don't try to inflict their beliefs on others. Then, like the rest of us, they'll be a long time dead.
My atheism is based on reason, not faith. Nothing intellecutally dishonest about that. That reason would be hugely convinced if anyone could show one convincing proof of the existence of a supernatural being. Just one. And one that did not depend upon faith, but was founded on reason; on tangible, measurable, ascertainable fact.

Odd that we're all born atheists, in the implicit sense. Then - gnerally - our upbringing and cultural conditioning introduces us to god, allah, jahweh, krishna, baal or whatever, and we buy into it. Personally I am amazed at the faith that got the Mayans to build their temples in Central America; hauling vast stones over long distancees through the jungle to make an edifice as high as St Paul's cathedral. Faith is an astonishing thing - but it's not for me as a rationalist product of the Enlightenment.

---

17 Mar 09 - 12:44 PM (#2591113)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

OK, here you go, Ron. I have precise questions I hope you'll answer precisely and thoughtfully, as I am trying to do here.

To boil this down to the essentials (obviously the nurse topic is long since beaten into the ground), let's go to the dictionary. Atheism: " disbelief in the existence of deity;" "doctrine there is no deity." - Well, gotta agree with the dead horse issue about the nurse, certainly. Also, I agree that "doctrine that there is no deity" would make atheism faith-based. However, "disbelief in the existence of deity" is the better definition, since "a-" means "none" and "-theism" means "belief in deity" - which also happens to be the kind of atheism we've mostly been talking about (we, in this case, being the atheists in question) - is not. It is a conclusion, not a faith. Antitheism, atheistic faith, I'm not sure what I'd call the other.

And what is this disbelief based on? Specious abuse of mathematics to play games with probability doesn't cut it, sorry. Thank you for reading my post. OK, if you're talking about lack of belief in gods, the use of statistical argument is no longer specious, not that it really was in the first place. What there is, first of all, is plenty of hard evidence that anything you might think was accomplished by deity was actually nature, physics, chemistry, biology, botany, or something now known, which had not been understood by the ancients. There is no need for a deity hypothesis, as LaPlace, I think, said. What in the world, literally, do you think requires a god?

It's based on....uh...uh...the belief itself. And nothing else. Since there is no conclusive proof or even solid evidence. You can't prove that there isn't any Flying Spaghetti Monster either. So what? Just because you understand a thing is possible, like the existence of a FSM or deity, doesn't mean that you believe it actually IS. If not, you don't believe in it, even though you understand intellectually that it isn't impossible. *Anything* is possible. But you don't believe in everything, do you?

Yes there is no proof there is a God. Great straw man, congratulations. But there is no proof there is not. Since obviously there can be no proof on a proposition which is by definition unknowable. As anybody who depends on empirical evidence realizes. All scientists or others who depend on empirical evidence know that all they can *have* empirical evidence is the knowable, and the unknowable is the realm of philosophy, not science. That is the very definition of the realms. So, um, that kind of takes care of that, and actually, I am kind of disappointed in the very impossibility of knowing the unknowable being raised as an intelligent, honest argument on this forum, where people tend to think things through. Basically, if you can't form a testable hypothesis, you can't test it, right, we know that. So we don't try to test the untestable. No thinking atheist (first definition or second, I would think) would try to say there is scientific proof of there being no gods. Again, what there is, is scientific proof that *myths,* or supernatural explanations for natural phenomena (e.g., Persephone is why we have winter), are false. Can you think of a hypothesis that would investigate the *non*-existence of deity?

Why do you suppose there are so few atheist scientists?   In contrast to agnostic scientists. Because they realize it's an open question. Actually, most scientist do not believe in deity, and refuse to call themselves atheist because, as I've said, there's a hoodoo on the term. It isn't fair to call people who don't believe in gods Agnostic just because they won't state that they believe there aren't any. Agnostics aren't sure one way or the other. People who don't believe in deity are atheists by the definition under discussion, even if they namby pamby out and call themselves agnostic. I am not as well-versed in philosophy as science, but we've got Dennett at least on our side. How many major scientists can you name who still aren't sure whether they believe in deity or not, in contrast to those (even those who, unlike Dawkins et al., don't write about their disbelief in particular)?

So the doctrine there is no deity is based on belief....i.e. faith. Atheists have faith there is no God. Just as Christians (and Jews and Moslems) have faith that there is. But there is a slight difference. Christians and other believers say directly their belief is based on faith. Atheists don't admit this about their belief. Actually, we don't have to, see above. And I have no issue with people of faith who know that their faith aren't rationally-based - that's the very definition, to go back to the dictionary, *of* faith - belief in the absence of evidence. I have friends of faith with whom I don't even argue theology, since they admit, in your term, that their faith is faith-based. The friends I do argue with, and we stay friends, are those who try to rationalize their faith. And we have lots of fun. Do you enjoy these kinds of discussions when they are limited, as I am trying to do, to specific statements expecting specific answers?

So, it seems, atheism and atheists, in addition to their other charms (especially on Mudcat)-- e.g. ignorance of history, refusal to do research before sounding off, etc.-- are in addition, intellectually dishonest. I assume the history point is about the unmentionable dead horse we will let lie like the sleeping dog it is. I know about the historical research we have both done in that vein. What scientific research have you done into the question of deity is not a valid question, as explained above, so I'm not asking that. Instead, I will ask you if by not asking that question, would you agree that I'm keeping this particular point of discussion intellectually honest?

OK, that's it for my answers to your specific points. I look forward to your answers.

Meanwhile, I'd like others to think about the sheer number of different religious beliefs which all preach that all *other* religions are false. Let's pretend there are, say, 100 beliefs, each of which could be summarized as "the 99 other religions are wrong." All of these beliefs are based on human interpretations of texts first written by humans long, long ago (or, in the case of L. Ron Hubbard, not so long ago), and recopied *and translated* and otherwise changed by humans down through the ages. What would make anyone able to pick one of these as "the" revealed word of "their" particular deity to "their" particular prophet?

I've heard it said that belief that 99 of these hypothetical 100 faiths being false is shared by theists and atheists alike. Atheists just go one god farther.

---

17 Mar 09 - 12:48 PM (#2591122)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

I didn't mean that Ron shouldn't think about that bit at the end, as I realize upon rereading that I might have seemed to be saying. Also, hey, I got all the html right, whoo hoo!

---

18 Mar 09 - 02:17 PM (#2591921)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John P

I'm really sick of people saying that a lack of belief is, in itself, a belief. Hooey. Insulting. Specious. Wrong. Illogical. Semantically backwards. Dishonest. Pointless. Wrong.

I'm afraid you'll have to come up with something else, like something that actually makes any sense whatsoever.

"A lack of belief in God is a belief in the lack of God". This is even more circular than most religious "logic".

Failure to believe in something for which there is no evidence is pretty easy to understand. Calling a belief is beyond understanding, beyond logic.

---

18 Mar 09 - 02:29 PM (#2591940)
Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Mrrzy

It's like calling bald a hair color, I have read recently!

---